Is chivalry dead and misogyny alive and well? (Loose dog version.)
August 15, 2023 7:34 AM Subscribe
I was riding my bike on a paved trail and encountered a couple walking an unleashed dog.
I (female, age 67) was riding with my date (male). A couple (man and woman of about age 30) was walking on the trail in the same direction as us, with their unleashed, medium-sized dog. Just before we passed them, my date called out, "On your left." I was right behind my date (aka, on his wheel). The couple held on to the dog's collar. As soon as my date passed them, they let go of the collar and the dog immediately ran over onto the opposite side of the trail, right in front of me. Luckily, I was able to slam on my brakes and skid to a stop in time to prevent an accident.
I said to the couple, "There is a leash law on this trail." The man said, sarcastically, "There is a leash attached to her collar." I said, "Well it's not in your fucking hand!" He responded, "Well you didn't say on your left." The thing is, I was right on my date's wheel, so there was no need to say on your left, because my date said it.
My date saw none of this, because he had obliviously jetted off once he passed the couple.
I encounter this kind of dog irresponsibility all the time, and it bugs me for an hour or two and then I forget about it. But this time I'm having a lot of trouble letting it go, and it is still bothering me a lot.
I feel that if I had been male, that man would have never had to nerve to blame the incident on me. I also feel like, once I told my date what happened, he should have gone back and explained to the man that when there is a cycling pace line, only the first person in the pace line needs to say on your left. Also, it bothers me that my date jetted off without checking to see that I got safely past the dog.
I have a friend who fell off her bike and broke her wrist when a dog ran in front of her.
So, what's your opinion? I'd like some perspective so I can let this go!
I (female, age 67) was riding with my date (male). A couple (man and woman of about age 30) was walking on the trail in the same direction as us, with their unleashed, medium-sized dog. Just before we passed them, my date called out, "On your left." I was right behind my date (aka, on his wheel). The couple held on to the dog's collar. As soon as my date passed them, they let go of the collar and the dog immediately ran over onto the opposite side of the trail, right in front of me. Luckily, I was able to slam on my brakes and skid to a stop in time to prevent an accident.
I said to the couple, "There is a leash law on this trail." The man said, sarcastically, "There is a leash attached to her collar." I said, "Well it's not in your fucking hand!" He responded, "Well you didn't say on your left." The thing is, I was right on my date's wheel, so there was no need to say on your left, because my date said it.
My date saw none of this, because he had obliviously jetted off once he passed the couple.
I encounter this kind of dog irresponsibility all the time, and it bugs me for an hour or two and then I forget about it. But this time I'm having a lot of trouble letting it go, and it is still bothering me a lot.
I feel that if I had been male, that man would have never had to nerve to blame the incident on me. I also feel like, once I told my date what happened, he should have gone back and explained to the man that when there is a cycling pace line, only the first person in the pace line needs to say on your left. Also, it bothers me that my date jetted off without checking to see that I got safely past the dog.
I have a friend who fell off her bike and broke her wrist when a dog ran in front of her.
So, what's your opinion? I'd like some perspective so I can let this go!
How could they know that you were behind your date, if you both were behind them?
posted by amtho at 7:41 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by amtho at 7:41 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am a woman your age who rides a bike. I used to ride often in the SF East Bay. When walking, I am frequently surprised when bikes pass me here in Sweden because they don’t give a warning. In the case you mention, I most likely would not have noticed you and been surprised because I would have been expecting a single cyclist only. Misogyny is absolutely alive and well but in my opinion, that is not what happened on your bike ride.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Sounds like the guy was being a dick, but I’m not seeing a lot gendered about it.
Just as a note, when riding in groups and passing people it’s very common to say how many people are behind you as you pass. The dog should not have been off the leash but the incident could’ve been avoided if your boyfriend had said “one more” as he passed.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just as a note, when riding in groups and passing people it’s very common to say how many people are behind you as you pass. The dog should not have been off the leash but the incident could’ve been avoided if your boyfriend had said “one more” as he passed.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, of course the dog should have been on a lease and under control. So glad you were not hurt.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
FWIW, I'm a male, and have been the subject of tons of verbal abuse by men and women for daring to suggest that they follow the damn leash laws. You didn't do anything wrong. What, did they wait a whole half-second before deciding to break the leash law again? Fuck that. I'm mad on your behalf; people are entitled jerks about their dogs, and it's only getting worse as far as I can tell. Sorry.
These days I usually don't say anything to avoid the high potential for verbal abuse or worse, and just call the cops or animal control if I can't easily avoid people being shitty with off-leash dogs. Flag and move on, as it were.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [24 favorites]
These days I usually don't say anything to avoid the high potential for verbal abuse or worse, and just call the cops or animal control if I can't easily avoid people being shitty with off-leash dogs. Flag and move on, as it were.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [24 favorites]
I walk on a rail trail a lot and bikes can be basically silent until they pass you. If your date said "on your left", the couple would have no way of knowing there were other bikes after them. Perhaps they could have quickly glanced back to see, but they didn't.
But, yes, their dog should have been on a leash. Dog owners can be like parents of small children in thinking their dog/child is more well behaved than other dogs/children and therefore the rules shouldn't apply to them.
As for your date riding off, perhaps they weren't aware of what happened and just assumed you were still right behind them.
It could be misogyny that caused the couple to react to you the way they did, or it could just be that you were a person who called out their mistake.
You could overthink and analyze this forever but I think maybe it's best if you chalk it up to one of those things that occasionally happens when one lives in a society. These sorts of interactions happen all the time. Nobody was hurt, everyone thinks they're in the right.
I hope your next ride is safe and pleasant.
posted by bondcliff at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
But, yes, their dog should have been on a leash. Dog owners can be like parents of small children in thinking their dog/child is more well behaved than other dogs/children and therefore the rules shouldn't apply to them.
As for your date riding off, perhaps they weren't aware of what happened and just assumed you were still right behind them.
It could be misogyny that caused the couple to react to you the way they did, or it could just be that you were a person who called out their mistake.
You could overthink and analyze this forever but I think maybe it's best if you chalk it up to one of those things that occasionally happens when one lives in a society. These sorts of interactions happen all the time. Nobody was hurt, everyone thinks they're in the right.
I hope your next ride is safe and pleasant.
posted by bondcliff at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am also female, but I know a lot of male dogwalkers who seem to have similar issues with idiot off leash dog owners, and my father has told me lots of stories as well.
posted by wheatlets at 7:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by wheatlets at 7:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
You're bothered that your date "jetted off" when you were passing a dog. As a fairly avid cyclist I would not be shocked to hear that you had to brake or swerve to avoid a loose dog - but also I wouldn't necessarily think "oh, we're coming up on a dog, I should make sure my companion negotiates around the dog successfully." I ride by dogs all the time, and it's normally a total non-issue. And that includes when I'm out riding with my wife, who typically rides directly behind me. Your date didn't check to see if you were ok because he - in my opinion correctly - did not just assume that the dog was going to be a danger to you. You have the experience of a friend being injured due to a dog; this is not a universal experience. I, for one, have been injured multiple times because humans did stupid things and forced me to brake or ditch to the side to avoid a crash - but I don't necessarily assume that every single human is a danger to me or my companion and double-check when we pass them. Same with dogs. You're attributing a callousness to your date that I don't think is warranted.
posted by Tomorrowful at 7:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 7:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
he should have gone back and explained to the man that when there is a cycling pace line...
I think there's a lot to be sympathetic about in your story - I get irritated about unleashed dogs too, and about people who don't follow rules more generally - but this part lost me. It's unrealistic to expect someone to lecture someone else about the etiquette of a fairly niche sport, not least because it's unrealistic to expect anyone to listen to such a lecture. You'd first have to explain what a paceline is (this is not something that non-cyclists are familiar with), and then explain how paceline etiquette works, and then expect them to remember this the next time they encounter a paceline, which could be a long time in the future depending on how common it is in the area, and... you get the point. It's a big ask. They've shown they don't care enough to even hold their dog's leash; they're not going to care about anything else, either.
The reality is that off-leash dogs are a part of using trails, just like other cars speeding is a part of driving on roads. You have to be prepared for people who aren't following rules.
I'll also say that, as a male cyclist, I don't think your gender had much to do with anything. People hate cyclists, period. And irresponsible dog owners hate people who suggest they act responsibly with their dogs. You just ended up in the worst part of the Venn diagram there.
I am a little confused about how the dog could've run between you and your date if you were on your date's wheel. It makes me think you weren't actually on your date's wheel (i.e., there were several feet between you and your date), in which case you probably should've called out as well, but that doesn't really matter.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:50 AM on August 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think there's a lot to be sympathetic about in your story - I get irritated about unleashed dogs too, and about people who don't follow rules more generally - but this part lost me. It's unrealistic to expect someone to lecture someone else about the etiquette of a fairly niche sport, not least because it's unrealistic to expect anyone to listen to such a lecture. You'd first have to explain what a paceline is (this is not something that non-cyclists are familiar with), and then explain how paceline etiquette works, and then expect them to remember this the next time they encounter a paceline, which could be a long time in the future depending on how common it is in the area, and... you get the point. It's a big ask. They've shown they don't care enough to even hold their dog's leash; they're not going to care about anything else, either.
The reality is that off-leash dogs are a part of using trails, just like other cars speeding is a part of driving on roads. You have to be prepared for people who aren't following rules.
I'll also say that, as a male cyclist, I don't think your gender had much to do with anything. People hate cyclists, period. And irresponsible dog owners hate people who suggest they act responsibly with their dogs. You just ended up in the worst part of the Venn diagram there.
I am a little confused about how the dog could've run between you and your date if you were on your date's wheel. It makes me think you weren't actually on your date's wheel (i.e., there were several feet between you and your date), in which case you probably should've called out as well, but that doesn't really matter.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:50 AM on August 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
How could they know that you were behind your date, if you both were behind them?
This is what I was wondering.
On offroad trails here, people on mountain bikes will typically say "on your left, it's just me" if they are alone, or "on your left, two more coming" if there is a group. On the paved rails-to-trails, people are a lot more hit and miss about letting you know there are other bicycles behind them, unfortunately.
In the case you are describing, the smart thing would have been for your date to announce there was two bicycles coming up on the left, or for you to announce yourself after he did. Otherwise, how would they know unless they turned around?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is what I was wondering.
On offroad trails here, people on mountain bikes will typically say "on your left, it's just me" if they are alone, or "on your left, two more coming" if there is a group. On the paved rails-to-trails, people are a lot more hit and miss about letting you know there are other bicycles behind them, unfortunately.
In the case you are describing, the smart thing would have been for your date to announce there was two bicycles coming up on the left, or for you to announce yourself after he did. Otherwise, how would they know unless they turned around?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
when there is a cycling pace line, only the first person in the pace line needs to say on your left
Aren't pace lines things for races?
I walk a lot on a shared-use trail and it's the standard here for everyone (maybe not little kids) to say "on your left" or "one more." Otherwise you're expecting the pedestrian to keep turning their head to see if there are more cyclists -- and turning to look behind me is when I'm most likely to step further into the trail.
I think expecting your date to go back and give the guy a talking to is outdated.
The dog owner might not have pushed back if you were a guy, that much I agree with.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:05 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Aren't pace lines things for races?
I walk a lot on a shared-use trail and it's the standard here for everyone (maybe not little kids) to say "on your left" or "one more." Otherwise you're expecting the pedestrian to keep turning their head to see if there are more cyclists -- and turning to look behind me is when I'm most likely to step further into the trail.
I think expecting your date to go back and give the guy a talking to is outdated.
The dog owner might not have pushed back if you were a guy, that much I agree with.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:05 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
This may be generational, but there are very few scenarios where I'd take it on myself to go lecture a stranger on behalf of my partner, especially if they didn't explicitly ask for it - and this is in a several-year relationship. Indeed, if I did so, I'd expect them to find it pretty belittling and presumptive. Chivalry as a guiding concept isn't something that I see come up a lot.
I think you have two questions here, or maybe a complaint and a question? It sounds like an unpleasant experience, but the solution is just to assume people aren't paying much attention; defensive driving for cyclists. Is your question more around what sort of behaviour you can expect from your date? If so, maybe think more about what you think it means about your date, and how you've developed those ideas?
posted by sagc at 8:08 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think you have two questions here, or maybe a complaint and a question? It sounds like an unpleasant experience, but the solution is just to assume people aren't paying much attention; defensive driving for cyclists. Is your question more around what sort of behaviour you can expect from your date? If so, maybe think more about what you think it means about your date, and how you've developed those ideas?
posted by sagc at 8:08 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not to excuse not having a dog leashed in an on-leash area (at the very least, if you take the liberty of ignoring the rule, you are bound to handsomely and lavishly apologize for any resulting mishaps rather than get defensive about it), but you would've run right into little old pedestrian me, because I would not have known that there were two of you and I could easily have swerved into your path unintentionally. It's a mixed-use trail, not a racing track. No one knows any pacing rules.
posted by praemunire at 8:14 AM on August 15, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:14 AM on August 15, 2023 [23 favorites]
I also feel like, once I told my date what happened, he should have gone back and explained to the man
Why? Why should he have clarified the situation and not you? Do you think that his words would have carried more weight than yours? If you wanted those rude people to learn how you feel about their version of trail etiquette why didn't you explain yourself to them? Your partner being a man doesn't in my opinion equal him having the job of reading your mind and using your words for you. I hope this isn't coming off like I think you're wrong because I don't. I feel you.
I was born in the early 1980s and have no memory of chivalry being alive. Also hard yes to it looking like misogyny is alive and well from over here where I am sitting.
So the thing is: That's a problem whether or not anyone on the trail that day was treating you differently than they would if you were a man. In our super binary obsessed current climate it's almost impossible to have an interaction with people where gender doesn't come into play somehow. For me, since I am sensitive to and aware of the situations (gender everywhere all at once+misogyny) it becomes really difficult to not see all of the covert/subconscious/"unintentional" ways people engage with and respond to me as a female person. Sometimes I see misogyny in everything and I don't know where to draw the line. Maybe you are less sensitive than me but that's what happens over here sometimes.
I feel like it's really hard for anyone other than you to say whether or not what you experienced on that trail was sexist. You obviously have some feelings about the situation and your partner that you might want to dig into.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 8:19 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why? Why should he have clarified the situation and not you? Do you think that his words would have carried more weight than yours? If you wanted those rude people to learn how you feel about their version of trail etiquette why didn't you explain yourself to them? Your partner being a man doesn't in my opinion equal him having the job of reading your mind and using your words for you. I hope this isn't coming off like I think you're wrong because I don't. I feel you.
I was born in the early 1980s and have no memory of chivalry being alive. Also hard yes to it looking like misogyny is alive and well from over here where I am sitting.
So the thing is: That's a problem whether or not anyone on the trail that day was treating you differently than they would if you were a man. In our super binary obsessed current climate it's almost impossible to have an interaction with people where gender doesn't come into play somehow. For me, since I am sensitive to and aware of the situations (gender everywhere all at once+misogyny) it becomes really difficult to not see all of the covert/subconscious/"unintentional" ways people engage with and respond to me as a female person. Sometimes I see misogyny in everything and I don't know where to draw the line. Maybe you are less sensitive than me but that's what happens over here sometimes.
I feel like it's really hard for anyone other than you to say whether or not what you experienced on that trail was sexist. You obviously have some feelings about the situation and your partner that you might want to dig into.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 8:19 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Chivalry and misogyny are two sides of the same coin. If we believe women are different from men in ways that mean they need special treatment and care that men don't need, it's only natural for people to think of and treat women differently in all kinds of ways, including sometimes making negative judgements or being rude. It sounds like you want women to be treated differently, but only in positive ways (checking to make sure you're okay, speaking up on your behalf.) I personally would rather live in a world where people's needs and abilities aren't assumed to be dramatically different based on their gender - no special treatment for women, positive or negative.
Of course the dog walkers should have been holding their dog's leash the whole time, but it's understandable that it might not have occurred to them that there could be a second bike behind the first. Even if there are commonly observed rules about bike/pedestrian interactions, they're not universally known. For all you know it was the first time those people had walked on a bike trail. Maybe they didn't even realize there was a rule about leashes. (Though common sense would tell most people that an unleashed dog is a bad idea on a bike trail.) I wouldn't assume that the dog owner was ruder to you because you were a woman. Maybe he was actually holding back because you were a woman and if your date had confronted him he would have sworn at him and threatened to hit him. Or maybe he would have responded exactly the same way to anyone who was angry with him.
Probably everyone learned something from the encounter. The dog walkers saw why letting go of their dog's leash on a bike trail can cause problems and also will probably be extra aware now that the bike rider they hear behind them could be multiple bikes. You and your date learned that not all pedestrians understand the rules the way you do and that you might need to make an extra effort to make sure they know what's coming up behind them. Let's hope everyone makes good use of what they learned and it helps them avoid problems like that in the future.
posted by Redstart at 8:24 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Of course the dog walkers should have been holding their dog's leash the whole time, but it's understandable that it might not have occurred to them that there could be a second bike behind the first. Even if there are commonly observed rules about bike/pedestrian interactions, they're not universally known. For all you know it was the first time those people had walked on a bike trail. Maybe they didn't even realize there was a rule about leashes. (Though common sense would tell most people that an unleashed dog is a bad idea on a bike trail.) I wouldn't assume that the dog owner was ruder to you because you were a woman. Maybe he was actually holding back because you were a woman and if your date had confronted him he would have sworn at him and threatened to hit him. Or maybe he would have responded exactly the same way to anyone who was angry with him.
Probably everyone learned something from the encounter. The dog walkers saw why letting go of their dog's leash on a bike trail can cause problems and also will probably be extra aware now that the bike rider they hear behind them could be multiple bikes. You and your date learned that not all pedestrians understand the rules the way you do and that you might need to make an extra effort to make sure they know what's coming up behind them. Let's hope everyone makes good use of what they learned and it helps them avoid problems like that in the future.
posted by Redstart at 8:24 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
I trail walk in the woods on trails that have mixed cyclists and pedestrians and plenty of dog walks and have never heard of pace lines, nor had cyclists let me know they were coming up behind me. On the deeper narrow trails the cyclists using mountain bikes can be going very fast what with jumps and things. I've never had a cyclist tell me "on your left" or "on your right". I am pretty sure that some of cyclists with completely enclosed helmets have no peripheral vision either.
I think it's possible that the couple with the dog might not have walked on your trail before, and might not know about the verbal warnings cyclists in your area are supposed to give let alone that there is such a thing as a pace line.
That said, they were in the wrong. Even in the absence of leash laws not keeping proper control of your dog is a good way to get your dog killed.
I am also guessing that the dog owner and you each got a nasty surge of adrenaline, you because you almost hit the dog, and the dog owner because your bike startled him and scared him that you would hit the dog. This means that probably neither of you were in a fit state to have a conversation with each other. You were both in fight or flight mode from the near accident, and the dumb owner was also in Mama Bear mode as his dog had only done what dumb dogs do but had been in danger. If the dog had tried to chase you, or to bite you, there is a good chance that shame and fear of you would have surged up and their reaction would have been much less aggressive.
Bottom line, unless you were both going too fast for a shared trail, the dog walker was completely in the wrong and you are not wrong to be a little pissed off. I wonder if maybe your date WAS also a bit at fault, for going at too high a speed - and you were left trying to keep up. I'd keep in mind that he seems a bit oblivious and a bit inconsiderate both to the dog walkers and to you.
This seems to be the way the people interact with each other now - they are too fed up and scared, while clinging to their rights and privileges to be capable of behaving badly. A good way to think about it is that the person who was walking the dog was in the throes of a panic attack while you spoke to him. He's like the guy who throws a drink in the stewardesses face because he needs to get off the airplane right now, - while the plane is still circling the airport waiting for a clear runway. Reasoning with him is a lost cause.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's possible that the couple with the dog might not have walked on your trail before, and might not know about the verbal warnings cyclists in your area are supposed to give let alone that there is such a thing as a pace line.
That said, they were in the wrong. Even in the absence of leash laws not keeping proper control of your dog is a good way to get your dog killed.
I am also guessing that the dog owner and you each got a nasty surge of adrenaline, you because you almost hit the dog, and the dog owner because your bike startled him and scared him that you would hit the dog. This means that probably neither of you were in a fit state to have a conversation with each other. You were both in fight or flight mode from the near accident, and the dumb owner was also in Mama Bear mode as his dog had only done what dumb dogs do but had been in danger. If the dog had tried to chase you, or to bite you, there is a good chance that shame and fear of you would have surged up and their reaction would have been much less aggressive.
Bottom line, unless you were both going too fast for a shared trail, the dog walker was completely in the wrong and you are not wrong to be a little pissed off. I wonder if maybe your date WAS also a bit at fault, for going at too high a speed - and you were left trying to keep up. I'd keep in mind that he seems a bit oblivious and a bit inconsiderate both to the dog walkers and to you.
This seems to be the way the people interact with each other now - they are too fed up and scared, while clinging to their rights and privileges to be capable of behaving badly. A good way to think about it is that the person who was walking the dog was in the throes of a panic attack while you spoke to him. He's like the guy who throws a drink in the stewardesses face because he needs to get off the airplane right now, - while the plane is still circling the airport waiting for a clear runway. Reasoning with him is a lost cause.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's unrealistic to expect someone to lecture someone else about the etiquette of a fairly niche sport
So, the thing is, my understanding is that "on your left" in the context of a paceline is directed primarily at other cyclists, who understand how it's used, not pedestrians. Also, pacelines and brisk group rides, or at least the ones I've participated in, acknowledge they are not super pedestrian-friendly and take pains not to choose routes that will have walkers, dogs (leashed or unleashed), etc., because it creates an unsafe situation for everyone. They aren't out on mixed-use trails, generally, they're on roads.
And I have, honestly, almost completely given up on "on your left" when passing walkers on a mixed-use trail. Many non-cyclists don't seem to expect or understand it, some react paradoxically (doing an exaggerated over-the-shoulder look that moves them toward the center of the trail, or even literally taking a step to the left), and a substantial number are wearing earphones anyway. Also, if the trail is even moderately busy, I'd just be saying it over and over and nobody would be able to tell exactly when it was directed at them. Instead, I really just try to modulate my speed based on the trail conditions, and generally be polite, which includes slowing or even stopping when someone is obstructing the trail, even if I techincally have the right-of-way. I'm not interested in being Right so much as I'm interested in not hitting a dog, a kid, or even a jogger (and potentially injuring myself or trashing my bike). If I need to get in miles or keep my heartrate up or whatever, I try to do it somewhere else.
My question would be: was your date setting a pace or otherwise behaving in a jerk cyclist way that wasn't appropriate for this trail (or for you)? The fact that he was gone before he realized you had to stop suggests he was. That would be the real problem for me.
posted by pullayup at 8:34 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
So, the thing is, my understanding is that "on your left" in the context of a paceline is directed primarily at other cyclists, who understand how it's used, not pedestrians. Also, pacelines and brisk group rides, or at least the ones I've participated in, acknowledge they are not super pedestrian-friendly and take pains not to choose routes that will have walkers, dogs (leashed or unleashed), etc., because it creates an unsafe situation for everyone. They aren't out on mixed-use trails, generally, they're on roads.
And I have, honestly, almost completely given up on "on your left" when passing walkers on a mixed-use trail. Many non-cyclists don't seem to expect or understand it, some react paradoxically (doing an exaggerated over-the-shoulder look that moves them toward the center of the trail, or even literally taking a step to the left), and a substantial number are wearing earphones anyway. Also, if the trail is even moderately busy, I'd just be saying it over and over and nobody would be able to tell exactly when it was directed at them. Instead, I really just try to modulate my speed based on the trail conditions, and generally be polite, which includes slowing or even stopping when someone is obstructing the trail, even if I techincally have the right-of-way. I'm not interested in being Right so much as I'm interested in not hitting a dog, a kid, or even a jogger (and potentially injuring myself or trashing my bike). If I need to get in miles or keep my heartrate up or whatever, I try to do it somewhere else.
My question would be: was your date setting a pace or otherwise behaving in a jerk cyclist way that wasn't appropriate for this trail (or for you)? The fact that he was gone before he realized you had to stop suggests he was. That would be the real problem for me.
posted by pullayup at 8:34 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
Number one: When it comes to the dog I think it doesn’t matter at all if you did any bike etiquette correctly or not - there is a leash law for a reason. It’s for the safety of everyone including the dog and they should have had their dog under control and close to them. Dogs are still dogs and can easily get in the way or run after something or get in a fight with another animal or hurt someone if not under control in public. Full stop. I don’t give a fuck if you were doing wheelies- dog needed to be controlled on a leash.
Number two: we cannot say for sure if sexism played a role in their response. I feel probably yeah. But my dad has had similar interactions on bike trails when telling people they need to control their dog.
Number three: I don’t think your date needed to go mansplain to the man. I don’t think it would have helped. But I DO think that your feelings of wanting a date to “have your back” emotionally and when it comes to safety are valid. If he were by your side I can imagine a scenario of agreeing that they need to leash their dog to back you up but going back to them is unhelpful. Next time, discuss how close you want to stay while cycling and how you want to communicate about navigation. If they still leave you in the dust after, then that’s something to consider.
posted by Crystalinne at 8:35 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Number two: we cannot say for sure if sexism played a role in their response. I feel probably yeah. But my dad has had similar interactions on bike trails when telling people they need to control their dog.
Number three: I don’t think your date needed to go mansplain to the man. I don’t think it would have helped. But I DO think that your feelings of wanting a date to “have your back” emotionally and when it comes to safety are valid. If he were by your side I can imagine a scenario of agreeing that they need to leash their dog to back you up but going back to them is unhelpful. Next time, discuss how close you want to stay while cycling and how you want to communicate about navigation. If they still leave you in the dust after, then that’s something to consider.
posted by Crystalinne at 8:35 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I walk on trails a lot, I've never heard the "pace" term before, and I'm certainly unaware of any rules regarding how many people on bikes to expect. I might assume more than one biker just because it's a good idea to be careful (I walk on boardwalks where bikes aren't allowed, but bikers sometimes ride anyway - there's lots of room for obnoxiousness in public spaces).
Also, as a walker, I don't find that "on your left" shout all that effective. I can't always understand what the person is saying, and it's followed by someone coming up so quickly that I don't always have time to register what I'm supposed to do. Of course, I try to get out of the way if I hear a cyclist coming, but it's an imperfect system.
I am 64, and I would not expect a man I was with to go back and upbraid a dog walker. For one thing, dog walkers who are obviously jerks anyway (as this one was) are just going to dig in and be jerkier and the best thing to do is get away from them. And I just don't expect men to fight my battles for me anyway - I agree that seems dated and also implies that I'm not capable of taking care of myself.
That said, this sounds like a rotten experience, and I'm sorry it happened to you. You might find my previous Ask about dealing with unleashed dogs helpful.
posted by FencingGal at 8:54 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, as a walker, I don't find that "on your left" shout all that effective. I can't always understand what the person is saying, and it's followed by someone coming up so quickly that I don't always have time to register what I'm supposed to do. Of course, I try to get out of the way if I hear a cyclist coming, but it's an imperfect system.
I am 64, and I would not expect a man I was with to go back and upbraid a dog walker. For one thing, dog walkers who are obviously jerks anyway (as this one was) are just going to dig in and be jerkier and the best thing to do is get away from them. And I just don't expect men to fight my battles for me anyway - I agree that seems dated and also implies that I'm not capable of taking care of myself.
That said, this sounds like a rotten experience, and I'm sorry it happened to you. You might find my previous Ask about dealing with unleashed dogs helpful.
posted by FencingGal at 8:54 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't find that "on your left" shout all that effective
It's not great but since bikes are so quiet I don't know what's better--the bell/horn doesn't convey positional information.
Basically, bikes and pedestrians don't belong on the same trails, and yoking everyone together just causes endless mutual resentment, yet all non-car traffic gets dumped together. I can't tell you the number of times in the past I've nearly been clobbered on the Brooklyn Bridge even though there are separate lanes.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's not great but since bikes are so quiet I don't know what's better--the bell/horn doesn't convey positional information.
Basically, bikes and pedestrians don't belong on the same trails, and yoking everyone together just causes endless mutual resentment, yet all non-car traffic gets dumped together. I can't tell you the number of times in the past I've nearly been clobbered on the Brooklyn Bridge even though there are separate lanes.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
The dog should absolutely have been on its leash, but I absolutely would have expected both people on bikes to say something, and I would definitely not have expected your date to go back and confront someone about bike and leash practices. I think it would have been a terrible idea for either of you to do that, but if one of you were going to, it should have been you, the one who had strong feelings about it. This isn't a gendered thing he should have done on your behalf.
I also don't understand the expectation that he should have been checking to make sure you got past the dog - it's a very reasonable expectation that you would have, or that you would have called out to him if you had a problem.
So I guess I think everyone except your date made some odd choices here, but that Unleashed Dog Guy was by far the worst offender, and that chivalry is not at all relevant here.
posted by Stacey at 9:25 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I also don't understand the expectation that he should have been checking to make sure you got past the dog - it's a very reasonable expectation that you would have, or that you would have called out to him if you had a problem.
So I guess I think everyone except your date made some odd choices here, but that Unleashed Dog Guy was by far the worst offender, and that chivalry is not at all relevant here.
posted by Stacey at 9:25 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've broken my wrist riding a bike where a puppy bolted in front of me. I managed to just clip him a bit but went over at a weird angle. My husband and I were racing kinda fast.
So from that perspective:
- the owners should have had control of their dog
- they should have apologized, but people are weird
- I wouldn't expect the person in front to see the dog as that much of a hazard - even my spouse, who was there when I broke my wrist - so wouldn't have been upset they kept going
- I wouldn't have expected your boyfriend to come berate anyone
Here's the thing though - I no longer take mixed-use trails at a top speed unless I have a clear line-of-sight on both sides of the trail. If I can see pedestrians or dogs I slow down. Whether this is wrong/right/fair, I have no idea but I don't need any more plates in my body.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
So from that perspective:
- the owners should have had control of their dog
- they should have apologized, but people are weird
- I wouldn't expect the person in front to see the dog as that much of a hazard - even my spouse, who was there when I broke my wrist - so wouldn't have been upset they kept going
- I wouldn't have expected your boyfriend to come berate anyone
Here's the thing though - I no longer take mixed-use trails at a top speed unless I have a clear line-of-sight on both sides of the trail. If I can see pedestrians or dogs I slow down. Whether this is wrong/right/fair, I have no idea but I don't need any more plates in my body.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
The dog should absolutely have been on its leash, but I absolutely would have expected both people on bikes to say something
Speaking of misogyny and sexism, two people were walking the trail with that unleashed dog, and I'd be more disappointed by the non-participation of the man's companion during our exchange.
Also agree that while "chivalry" isn't the right word, the man's response would have been different if you were a man -- and a man in his age group, someone he might consider a peer. I don't think anything was to be gained by your friend going back to further dispute unleashed dogs and trail etiquette, and I like Crystalinne's suggestions for feeling safer on future bike rides.
Mostly I'm glad you weren't physically injured. I'd hope that standing up for yourself gave the couple opportunity (once the adrenaline wore off) to re-evaluate their leash protocols, before something worse happened to someone else. Kudos to you.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Speaking of misogyny and sexism, two people were walking the trail with that unleashed dog, and I'd be more disappointed by the non-participation of the man's companion during our exchange.
Also agree that while "chivalry" isn't the right word, the man's response would have been different if you were a man -- and a man in his age group, someone he might consider a peer. I don't think anything was to be gained by your friend going back to further dispute unleashed dogs and trail etiquette, and I like Crystalinne's suggestions for feeling safer on future bike rides.
Mostly I'm glad you weren't physically injured. I'd hope that standing up for yourself gave the couple opportunity (once the adrenaline wore off) to re-evaluate their leash protocols, before something worse happened to someone else. Kudos to you.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
People who are clearly wrong are often aggressive about defending themselves. Of course it would be different if you were male. Sexism is real and pervasive. Your date is blameless. Dog owner is in the wrong. The pedestrians should have moved to be single file and reined in the dog, unless the trail is quite wide. 2 people and a dog hog up all the space and should share effectively.
I have a dog, we go on trails with a long leash. It takes a minute to reel her in. I look for trails that are pedestrian only, because bikes and people are a dangerous enough mix, dogs add way too much unpredictability. Because of the inherent danger in mixing dogs, pedestrians and bikes, everyone is well-advised to be cautious. Are you required to call On Your Left for both bikes? I don't know, but it's safer. Many cyclists carry a squirt gun/ bottle of water because some dogs are not just annoying, but aggressive. I think a bell or whistle is an excellent idea.
Being right is mildly satisfying. But lots of dog owners are wrong and will keep being wrong, and protecting your safety is the priority. Chastising idiots and being hollered at feels bad, but I think correcting idiots does have some effect. Idiot will be less likely to behave badly for at least 1 walk. But it's exhausting, so pace yourself. There's a governing body for the trail, ask for bike- and pedestrian-only trails, more signage, etc. It's crappy, but sometime life is unfair.
posted by theora55 at 11:24 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a dog, we go on trails with a long leash. It takes a minute to reel her in. I look for trails that are pedestrian only, because bikes and people are a dangerous enough mix, dogs add way too much unpredictability. Because of the inherent danger in mixing dogs, pedestrians and bikes, everyone is well-advised to be cautious. Are you required to call On Your Left for both bikes? I don't know, but it's safer. Many cyclists carry a squirt gun/ bottle of water because some dogs are not just annoying, but aggressive. I think a bell or whistle is an excellent idea.
Being right is mildly satisfying. But lots of dog owners are wrong and will keep being wrong, and protecting your safety is the priority. Chastising idiots and being hollered at feels bad, but I think correcting idiots does have some effect. Idiot will be less likely to behave badly for at least 1 walk. But it's exhausting, so pace yourself. There's a governing body for the trail, ask for bike- and pedestrian-only trails, more signage, etc. It's crappy, but sometime life is unfair.
posted by theora55 at 11:24 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
My guess is that it's hard to let go for a combination of reasons:
1. This is scary. Almost crashing is frightening and means stress hormones are flooding your system and putting into fight or flight (and you wanted to fight!).
2. You called someone out for their inappropriate behavior (not leashing the dog), and then it escalated when they called you out. This kind of interaction is stressful.
3. You felt like your date abandoned you and didn't have your back. In fact, you were in fight mode and wanted them to join your fight, and didn't get the validation from them that you wanted.
4. And, unfortunately, I think you're having a hard time letting this go because these folks weren't completely wrong when they suggested you could also have called out your passing (because they didn't want their dog to get hurt or hurt you).
I'm a bike person, dog person, and multi-path trail and path user. It's absolutely on the faster-moving people to slow down and be courteous around pedestrians. I never ever presume that kids or dogs (or parents or dog owners) will behave predictably. It's super stressful to be walking (with or without a dog) someplace where bikes are zipping by. When you're on your bike around people, slow down, and never presume that even a dog on a leash won't dart away from its owner. Be wary. I'm not saying this is your fault. But it's also not surprising.
There should be nothing resembling the speed or behavior of a paceline on a mixed use trail with walkers present. It's not fair for them and it's dangerous for you. And if you were going slow -- well, that's not really a paceline. That's just two folks biking, only one of whom said anything.
And yes, it is absolutely common to let folks know you are passing and tell them how many. I did this just a few days ago on a mixed use trail. Passing a person on foot going the opposite direction, the hiker told me, "there are two more behind us," and in turn, I said, "one more on a bike" or some such.
I don't like "On your left" or "right" because people don't always understand it. They more often understand, "Passing!" So that's what I say when I come up behind someone. I also like "Good morning!" or "Good afternoon!" "On your left" followed by "Good morning" from you would have done the job. And isn't it nice and friendly? People seem to like it, and it feels good to say it.
You and the dog owner are engaging in a similar response, I think. You both got called out and want to blame someone else instead of trying to figure out what could have done differently. Instead of sort of owning that you had some responsibility here, you are instead wanting to appeal to older male patriarchal authority, by having your date lecture these young whippersnappers. But I think those folks will be more likely to leash their dog, or check for more bikes in the future, and I really hope you start calling your passes, even when you're in a group.
And yes, perhaps the dog owner reacted more strongly because he wasn't scared of you and because you're a woman.
There's a bigger picture that I try to keep in mind: we have these conflicts between between walking and exercising dogs and riding bicycles because we give so much space to cars and we have these tiny little scraps for human-powered activities. People want to walk and exercise their dogs at the same time. I live in a super dog-friendly town where the only place you can walk around with your dog outside of a small dog park is a 20-minute drive out of town. It's quite frustrating! And I'm also in a very bike-friendly town where it's really difficult to find nice rides where cars aren't super dangerous and where people also aren't walking and running and having casual strolls.
We are all sharing tiny scraps. We need more infrastructure that prioritizes human-powered movement so we aren't all competing for the tiny little bits of trail where cars aren't allowed.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
1. This is scary. Almost crashing is frightening and means stress hormones are flooding your system and putting into fight or flight (and you wanted to fight!).
2. You called someone out for their inappropriate behavior (not leashing the dog), and then it escalated when they called you out. This kind of interaction is stressful.
3. You felt like your date abandoned you and didn't have your back. In fact, you were in fight mode and wanted them to join your fight, and didn't get the validation from them that you wanted.
4. And, unfortunately, I think you're having a hard time letting this go because these folks weren't completely wrong when they suggested you could also have called out your passing (because they didn't want their dog to get hurt or hurt you).
I'm a bike person, dog person, and multi-path trail and path user. It's absolutely on the faster-moving people to slow down and be courteous around pedestrians. I never ever presume that kids or dogs (or parents or dog owners) will behave predictably. It's super stressful to be walking (with or without a dog) someplace where bikes are zipping by. When you're on your bike around people, slow down, and never presume that even a dog on a leash won't dart away from its owner. Be wary. I'm not saying this is your fault. But it's also not surprising.
There should be nothing resembling the speed or behavior of a paceline on a mixed use trail with walkers present. It's not fair for them and it's dangerous for you. And if you were going slow -- well, that's not really a paceline. That's just two folks biking, only one of whom said anything.
And yes, it is absolutely common to let folks know you are passing and tell them how many. I did this just a few days ago on a mixed use trail. Passing a person on foot going the opposite direction, the hiker told me, "there are two more behind us," and in turn, I said, "one more on a bike" or some such.
I don't like "On your left" or "right" because people don't always understand it. They more often understand, "Passing!" So that's what I say when I come up behind someone. I also like "Good morning!" or "Good afternoon!" "On your left" followed by "Good morning" from you would have done the job. And isn't it nice and friendly? People seem to like it, and it feels good to say it.
You and the dog owner are engaging in a similar response, I think. You both got called out and want to blame someone else instead of trying to figure out what could have done differently. Instead of sort of owning that you had some responsibility here, you are instead wanting to appeal to older male patriarchal authority, by having your date lecture these young whippersnappers. But I think those folks will be more likely to leash their dog, or check for more bikes in the future, and I really hope you start calling your passes, even when you're in a group.
And yes, perhaps the dog owner reacted more strongly because he wasn't scared of you and because you're a woman.
There's a bigger picture that I try to keep in mind: we have these conflicts between between walking and exercising dogs and riding bicycles because we give so much space to cars and we have these tiny little scraps for human-powered activities. People want to walk and exercise their dogs at the same time. I live in a super dog-friendly town where the only place you can walk around with your dog outside of a small dog park is a 20-minute drive out of town. It's quite frustrating! And I'm also in a very bike-friendly town where it's really difficult to find nice rides where cars aren't super dangerous and where people also aren't walking and running and having casual strolls.
We are all sharing tiny scraps. We need more infrastructure that prioritizes human-powered movement so we aren't all competing for the tiny little bits of trail where cars aren't allowed.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: I am a little confused about how the dog could've run between you and your date if you were on your date's wheel.
This is a very good point. Thinking back, I was on my date's wheel when he called out, "On your left." But I now remember that I did slow down just before and while passing the dog, and my date did not, which created a gap. (I would make a terrible eye-witness.)
Thank you to those of you who suggest that something like, "Two behind you", be called out. Excellent advice that I will follow.
In fact, excellent feedback/advice/perspectives from all who responded here. I can tell it worked, because I'm no longer dwelling on the incident. Plus, you've provided a variety of good coping methods to choose from the next time I'm on the trail. Yay!
posted by SageTrail at 12:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [18 favorites]
This is a very good point. Thinking back, I was on my date's wheel when he called out, "On your left." But I now remember that I did slow down just before and while passing the dog, and my date did not, which created a gap. (I would make a terrible eye-witness.)
Thank you to those of you who suggest that something like, "Two behind you", be called out. Excellent advice that I will follow.
In fact, excellent feedback/advice/perspectives from all who responded here. I can tell it worked, because I'm no longer dwelling on the incident. Plus, you've provided a variety of good coping methods to choose from the next time I'm on the trail. Yay!
posted by SageTrail at 12:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [18 favorites]
For years I rode my bicycle very frequently on a trail heavily used all day and most of the night by bikes, pedestrians, and people walking their dogs.
And my biggest problems were dogs which were on a leash, not dogs off-leash.
Because when they were on a leash, you never knew when the dog was going to dash across the trail to look at or sniff something, and if they did, the leash would be stretched across the trail like a low clothesline, and if I was going at a comfortable speed, there might not have been enough time to stop, and there would have been no room on either side to evade the collision — AND if the leash happened to be one of those reel varieties which maybe 10% of walkers used, the extremely thin leash itself would have been effectively invisible to cyclists under many ambient lighting conditions.
If I were walking my dog (I didn’t have a dog), and I had it on a leash on that trail and heard a bicycle behind us, I might have concluded that the safest course for all concerned was to drop the leash if I was sure my dog wouldn’t go after the cyclist.
It doesn’t seem likely to me that the dogwalker you encountered had done that, but it is possible given the circumstance that the dog in question was dragging its leash.
posted by jamjam at 1:09 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
And my biggest problems were dogs which were on a leash, not dogs off-leash.
Because when they were on a leash, you never knew when the dog was going to dash across the trail to look at or sniff something, and if they did, the leash would be stretched across the trail like a low clothesline, and if I was going at a comfortable speed, there might not have been enough time to stop, and there would have been no room on either side to evade the collision — AND if the leash happened to be one of those reel varieties which maybe 10% of walkers used, the extremely thin leash itself would have been effectively invisible to cyclists under many ambient lighting conditions.
If I were walking my dog (I didn’t have a dog), and I had it on a leash on that trail and heard a bicycle behind us, I might have concluded that the safest course for all concerned was to drop the leash if I was sure my dog wouldn’t go after the cyclist.
It doesn’t seem likely to me that the dogwalker you encountered had done that, but it is possible given the circumstance that the dog in question was dragging its leash.
posted by jamjam at 1:09 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
We walk on heavily ridden/run/walked paved trails here in New England, and I can't recall ever hearing cyclists announce themselves individually nor indicate how many were in their group.
I mean, I love the idea and will do it myself in the future, but it's new to me.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:46 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, I love the idea and will do it myself in the future, but it's new to me.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:46 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel that if I had been male, that man would have never had to nerve to blame the incident on me. I also feel like, once I told my date what happened, he should have gone back and explained to the man that when there is a cycling pace line, only the first person in the pace line needs to say on your left. Also, it bothers me that my date jetted off without checking to see that I got safely past the dog.
For context, I am an avid cyclist who rides through parks daily and encounters idiots with offleash dogs. I am also a dog owner.
The solution to this problem is to get a bell and ring the fuck out of it every time you're approaching any scenario that could turn into a situation. You will then get yelled at for ringing your bell too much but you will no longer feel you'd behaved inadequately.
Personally, I never say On Your Left unless passing another cyclist. It's a relatively useless phrase to people walking and for the most part you'd be past them by the time it's finished coming out of your mouth unless you're screaming it from 20 feet back.
Yeah, get a bell. If you've already got a bell, use it more often.
posted by dobbs at 2:15 PM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
For context, I am an avid cyclist who rides through parks daily and encounters idiots with offleash dogs. I am also a dog owner.
The solution to this problem is to get a bell and ring the fuck out of it every time you're approaching any scenario that could turn into a situation. You will then get yelled at for ringing your bell too much but you will no longer feel you'd behaved inadequately.
Personally, I never say On Your Left unless passing another cyclist. It's a relatively useless phrase to people walking and for the most part you'd be past them by the time it's finished coming out of your mouth unless you're screaming it from 20 feet back.
Yeah, get a bell. If you've already got a bell, use it more often.
posted by dobbs at 2:15 PM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you don't have a bell, I bought "Rekata" aluminum ones for friends a couple of years ago; they're loud but not screechy, inexpensive, & haven't succumbed to the elements yet. [The bells, but also the friends, technically, I guess.]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:02 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:02 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also have a little ching-ching bicycle bell, and ring it a few times whenever I want someone to be aware of my position. I intentionally picked one that isn’t super loud or aggressive-sounding so I feel fine ringing it as much as I want. When I need to be louder, I yell, but that’s pretty infrequent.
Also, please adjust your speed to conditions on multi use paths. I run into my share of “Cat 5” cyclists and they’re scary even when I’m on a bike!
posted by momus_window at 4:54 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, please adjust your speed to conditions on multi use paths. I run into my share of “Cat 5” cyclists and they’re scary even when I’m on a bike!
posted by momus_window at 4:54 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with others that the dog owners knew they were morally and legally wrong and acted aggressively. When this happens to me, it's very upsetting and it helps me to imagine it as a kind of everyday form of narcissistic injury. They lash out because they know they are wrong, not because I didn't explain myself in the right way.
On mixed use paths, I think the faster party has a responsibility to slow down enough when approaching others (or low visibility sections) that the slower party has enough time to understand the situation and react accordingly. I'm sure you've encountered cars that don't want to adjust their speed regardless of who is nearby!
If pedestrians are behaving unpredictably, it may be because you have not given them enough time to understand the noise, recognize it's intended for them (definitely a problem with bells on popular trails), assess where a bike is coming from and going, then decide whether they need to move out of the way, travel on their current trajectory, or stop. I don't think there's a magic thing to shout to change human reaction time.
posted by Gable Oak at 5:00 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
On mixed use paths, I think the faster party has a responsibility to slow down enough when approaching others (or low visibility sections) that the slower party has enough time to understand the situation and react accordingly. I'm sure you've encountered cars that don't want to adjust their speed regardless of who is nearby!
If pedestrians are behaving unpredictably, it may be because you have not given them enough time to understand the noise, recognize it's intended for them (definitely a problem with bells on popular trails), assess where a bike is coming from and going, then decide whether they need to move out of the way, travel on their current trajectory, or stop. I don't think there's a magic thing to shout to change human reaction time.
posted by Gable Oak at 5:00 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Make it a complete sentence: say “We’re passing on your left.”
I also thought the phrase was well-known, but even having been a fairly regular (though not at all competitive) cyclist for much of my life, I’ve found that suddenly hearing “on your left” when I’m not at all expecting it as a pedestrian makes my brain focus on the “your left” part and it takes an annoying, conscious effort to move myself to the right instead of moving myself to the left (it feels closer to a command directed at me in the pedestrian context than an informational declaration of the cyclist’s actions). Making it a complete sentence avoids this potentially dangerous but understandable confusion, gives context to any pedestrians who aren’t familiar with the phrase, and also concisely gives the pedestrians information about whether there is one cyclist (“I’m passing on your left.”) or multiple cyclists and they need to spare a glance to check the number.
posted by eviemath at 6:56 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I also thought the phrase was well-known, but even having been a fairly regular (though not at all competitive) cyclist for much of my life, I’ve found that suddenly hearing “on your left” when I’m not at all expecting it as a pedestrian makes my brain focus on the “your left” part and it takes an annoying, conscious effort to move myself to the right instead of moving myself to the left (it feels closer to a command directed at me in the pedestrian context than an informational declaration of the cyclist’s actions). Making it a complete sentence avoids this potentially dangerous but understandable confusion, gives context to any pedestrians who aren’t familiar with the phrase, and also concisely gives the pedestrians information about whether there is one cyclist (“I’m passing on your left.”) or multiple cyclists and they need to spare a glance to check the number.
posted by eviemath at 6:56 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, chivalry is a form of misogyny.
posted by eviemath at 6:57 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 6:57 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
The dog owners were in the wrong regarding the leash law. It sounds like they were probably also taking up the whole width of the trail without paying much attention to other trail users and their needs. I find that annoying even as a fellow pedestrian (it also happens a lot with groups of other pedestrians on sidewalks). (‘Course, people with little to no awareness of their surroundings are one of my pet peeves in general.)
But also, cyclists have a responsibility to take extra care around pedestrians on multi-use trails. I’ve always avoiding bicycling on multi-use trails for that reason, since I like to go faster and at a more steady speed than I can when sharing a path with pedestrians. It sounds like potentially you and your date were also a bit in the wrong by passing too quickly - if your date sped away from the scene too quickly to notice the situation. But potentially you were passing at a safe and respectful speed, in which case your date absolutely should have heard the interaction between you and the dog owner. In either case, your date should have noticed within a couple minutes that you were no longer right behind him, and looked back/stopped to check that you were okay. I’d feel annoyed and shitty about that as well, if I were in your situation. But expecting your date not just to check in you and come back when he saw you were in an altercation, but to berate the dog owner on your behalf, especially because of his gender, and without you specifically asking him to step in, is not really a reasonable expectation.
posted by eviemath at 7:21 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
But also, cyclists have a responsibility to take extra care around pedestrians on multi-use trails. I’ve always avoiding bicycling on multi-use trails for that reason, since I like to go faster and at a more steady speed than I can when sharing a path with pedestrians. It sounds like potentially you and your date were also a bit in the wrong by passing too quickly - if your date sped away from the scene too quickly to notice the situation. But potentially you were passing at a safe and respectful speed, in which case your date absolutely should have heard the interaction between you and the dog owner. In either case, your date should have noticed within a couple minutes that you were no longer right behind him, and looked back/stopped to check that you were okay. I’d feel annoyed and shitty about that as well, if I were in your situation. But expecting your date not just to check in you and come back when he saw you were in an altercation, but to berate the dog owner on your behalf, especially because of his gender, and without you specifically asking him to step in, is not really a reasonable expectation.
posted by eviemath at 7:21 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
(For fellow pedestrians on multi-use trails, I’d recommend glancing behind you when a bike passes to see how many people are in the group, rather than assuming. We also share some responsibility as pedestrians for sharing the trail in the sense of not taking up the entire width of the trail - it’s not just bicyclists who might want to pass, but also joggers, or even faster-paced walkers.)
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
What eviemath says. Quite frankly, it boggles my mind that someone walking on a trail who knows cyclists also use it wouldn’t think to glance behind for a moment to see if anything else might be coming. Like, it’s basic situational awareness?
posted by macdara at 3:20 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by macdara at 3:20 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
In my experience watching my male spouse confront jerks with dogs, this guy might have actually been more aggressive if you were male.
posted by ewok_academy at 9:04 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ewok_academy at 9:04 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yeah, the proper response when walking on a mixed use trail and hearing "on your left" is to look around behind you. Especially if you're walking a dog. You did nothing wrong.
posted by ewok_academy at 9:06 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ewok_academy at 9:06 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Quite frankly, it boggles my mind that someone walking on a trail who knows cyclists also use it wouldn’t think to glance behind for a moment to see if anything else might be coming. Like, it’s basic situational awareness?
Oof, I wish. I commute to work on a bike five days a week and roughly half of my route is a mixed-use trail in a busy urban setting. I have a close call probably once every two or three weeks, and an actually dangerous near miss every six months. It's bad enough that I opt to take surface roads when I can anticipate the trail will be especially busy, even though that carries its own risks.
Most common is a runner crossing the trail to switch directions (there's a narrow padded rubber running lane on both sides) without looking back to check for a bike first. It happens all the time, and I think most of these folks are just in a zone/vibing with headphones on and don't expect someone to be overtaking them at several times their speed. Second are toddlers darting across the trail or generally not being aware of their surroundings and moving into my path (to be super clear, I don't blame the kids here, but the parents are absolutely not paying enough attention). Unleashed dogs are considerably less common, thankfully. Also, now that weed is legal here *lots* of people on the trail are high, and a substantial number of them are enjoying a nice stroll with their dog while indulging. It's a popular place to smoke if you can't do it in your home.
I don't know what the right solution would be. I love the idea of separate paths for walkers/joggers and cyclists, but it isn't always feasible, either from economic or logistical/space usage (especially in a dense city) perspectives. The trail I commute on was partially funded with money earmarked for bike infrastructure, so it might not exist at all if bikes hadn't been allowed.
Looking back at my first response, I feel like my focus on cyclist behavior was so strong as to be almost inappropriate. The dog's owners were clearly in the wrong, and they would have been 100% at fault if this incident had gone wrong and someone had been injured. But, at the same time, dogs (and, yeesh, children) on trails are always blameless, and as a cyclist I think it's important to behave in a way that minimizes risk, even when it's arguably not your responsibility. I strongly endorse the bell suggestion, and I've even thought about getting something like mtb trail bells, which is the universal solution to this problem on backcountry trails shared by hikers and cyclists, though I'm not sure they'd work as intended on a mostly smooth paved surface.
posted by pullayup at 12:15 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oof, I wish. I commute to work on a bike five days a week and roughly half of my route is a mixed-use trail in a busy urban setting. I have a close call probably once every two or three weeks, and an actually dangerous near miss every six months. It's bad enough that I opt to take surface roads when I can anticipate the trail will be especially busy, even though that carries its own risks.
Most common is a runner crossing the trail to switch directions (there's a narrow padded rubber running lane on both sides) without looking back to check for a bike first. It happens all the time, and I think most of these folks are just in a zone/vibing with headphones on and don't expect someone to be overtaking them at several times their speed. Second are toddlers darting across the trail or generally not being aware of their surroundings and moving into my path (to be super clear, I don't blame the kids here, but the parents are absolutely not paying enough attention). Unleashed dogs are considerably less common, thankfully. Also, now that weed is legal here *lots* of people on the trail are high, and a substantial number of them are enjoying a nice stroll with their dog while indulging. It's a popular place to smoke if you can't do it in your home.
I don't know what the right solution would be. I love the idea of separate paths for walkers/joggers and cyclists, but it isn't always feasible, either from economic or logistical/space usage (especially in a dense city) perspectives. The trail I commute on was partially funded with money earmarked for bike infrastructure, so it might not exist at all if bikes hadn't been allowed.
Looking back at my first response, I feel like my focus on cyclist behavior was so strong as to be almost inappropriate. The dog's owners were clearly in the wrong, and they would have been 100% at fault if this incident had gone wrong and someone had been injured. But, at the same time, dogs (and, yeesh, children) on trails are always blameless, and as a cyclist I think it's important to behave in a way that minimizes risk, even when it's arguably not your responsibility. I strongly endorse the bell suggestion, and I've even thought about getting something like mtb trail bells, which is the universal solution to this problem on backcountry trails shared by hikers and cyclists, though I'm not sure they'd work as intended on a mostly smooth paved surface.
posted by pullayup at 12:15 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do a commute that includes a paved trail when I bike to work.
I definitely think the initial interaction could have been influenced by you being a woman; there are absolutely people who are rude but will bite their tongue based on either perceived status or a quick "will I be on the wrong end of this if it escalates?" calculations.
In terms of passing: I'm conservative for a cyclist but I feel in this situation is that we are the vehicle. We are coming up silently behind slower moving pedestrians; in many cases they explicitly have the right of way. They should stick to the right side and dogs should be leashed, sure, but TBH (as jamjam pointed out) on any normal size trail the leash wouldn't have prevented this.
So I go very slow when I'm passing a pedestrian, and often announce my presence (I go "Good morning!" or something similar). I basically never want anyone to start in surprise when I move past them, even if they're wearing headphones and paying zero attention. Toddlers and dogs are risky unpredictable items I have my eye on any time I'm approaching, same as I would if a kid and a dog were playing around the side of the road when I'm driving.
Near accidents are stressful and the guy was nasty and rude, but a lot of the preamble (before his reaction) was just one of those things that can happen.
posted by mark k at 1:30 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I definitely think the initial interaction could have been influenced by you being a woman; there are absolutely people who are rude but will bite their tongue based on either perceived status or a quick "will I be on the wrong end of this if it escalates?" calculations.
In terms of passing: I'm conservative for a cyclist but I feel in this situation is that we are the vehicle. We are coming up silently behind slower moving pedestrians; in many cases they explicitly have the right of way. They should stick to the right side and dogs should be leashed, sure, but TBH (as jamjam pointed out) on any normal size trail the leash wouldn't have prevented this.
So I go very slow when I'm passing a pedestrian, and often announce my presence (I go "Good morning!" or something similar). I basically never want anyone to start in surprise when I move past them, even if they're wearing headphones and paying zero attention. Toddlers and dogs are risky unpredictable items I have my eye on any time I'm approaching, same as I would if a kid and a dog were playing around the side of the road when I'm driving.
Near accidents are stressful and the guy was nasty and rude, but a lot of the preamble (before his reaction) was just one of those things that can happen.
posted by mark k at 1:30 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by nkknkk at 7:38 AM on August 15, 2023 [26 favorites]