How to maintain intimate relationship when the connection is imperfect?
July 13, 2023 5:27 AM Subscribe
Everyone is flawed and perfect intimacy is impossible. Rationally, I realize this but feel like, emotionally, I lack the skills to fully manage the reality. As a simple example, if a partner says "does this new shirt make me look fat" and consideration for their feelings demands the answer "no", but the truth is "yes", how do I internally keep the sense of being in an honest, open partnership?
More detailed example (which raised this question for me). I just saw a video of a professional rock climber and his wife "reacting" to a video of the rock climber doing some very dangerous climb at the encouragement of the guy featured in the movie "Free Solo". The wife shows appealing emotional concern for him by saying stuff like "I feel so bad for how terrified you look there". He genuinely appreciates her love and concern. They seem like a great, intimate couple. Then, right after, she says something kind of thoughtless (maybe inconsiderate?) related to how rock climbing partnerships work. He just kind of nods.
How do they manage the closeness when both types of interactions are present in their relationship?
More detailed example (which raised this question for me). I just saw a video of a professional rock climber and his wife "reacting" to a video of the rock climber doing some very dangerous climb at the encouragement of the guy featured in the movie "Free Solo". The wife shows appealing emotional concern for him by saying stuff like "I feel so bad for how terrified you look there". He genuinely appreciates her love and concern. They seem like a great, intimate couple. Then, right after, she says something kind of thoughtless (maybe inconsiderate?) related to how rock climbing partnerships work. He just kind of nods.
How do they manage the closeness when both types of interactions are present in their relationship?
How do they manage the closeness when both types of interactions are present in their relationship?
Part of being in a relationship is recognizing that people aren't perfect and that occasional thoughtless comments are probably more about them than you or the relationship.
A couple isn't going to be in sync at all times. So it's important to have lot of in sync times, e.g. good times, to help carry y'all through the harder times. Also important to discover a few actions or words that can help the couple get back in sync.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:02 AM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
Part of being in a relationship is recognizing that people aren't perfect and that occasional thoughtless comments are probably more about them than you or the relationship.
A couple isn't going to be in sync at all times. So it's important to have lot of in sync times, e.g. good times, to help carry y'all through the harder times. Also important to discover a few actions or words that can help the couple get back in sync.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:02 AM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
I think, for me at least, my partner and I maintain intimacy as a consequence of two related things: our investment in doing what we can to enhance the general well-being of one another, and our commitment to sustaining the relationship over the long haul.
So in the example you give with "does this new shirt make me look fat," the reality or truth of objective/empirical facts isn't as valuable to me as the equally real and true experiences of my partner's feelings. How my partner feels about how they look matters more to me than how they actually look (although I'm lucky that my partner always looks pretty good to me ;)).
In the example you give with the rock climbers, I think strong partnerships can readily forgive the occasionally thoughtless comment if, in the aggregate and on most days, you feel like your partner has your back, wants you to feel good (even when they don't always share your worldview or experiences or goals), and enjoys moving through the world sometimes with and sometimes beside you. It's easy to either shrug off or reconcile something that happens in the moment when you feel like your partner genuinely supports and values you.
posted by pinkacademic at 6:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
So in the example you give with "does this new shirt make me look fat," the reality or truth of objective/empirical facts isn't as valuable to me as the equally real and true experiences of my partner's feelings. How my partner feels about how they look matters more to me than how they actually look (although I'm lucky that my partner always looks pretty good to me ;)).
In the example you give with the rock climbers, I think strong partnerships can readily forgive the occasionally thoughtless comment if, in the aggregate and on most days, you feel like your partner has your back, wants you to feel good (even when they don't always share your worldview or experiences or goals), and enjoys moving through the world sometimes with and sometimes beside you. It's easy to either shrug off or reconcile something that happens in the moment when you feel like your partner genuinely supports and values you.
posted by pinkacademic at 6:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Supportive communication is a skill that can and must be built over time, is based on trust and accepting aspect of the other person as they are, and is in itself a partnership. I certainly have relationships where the answer “yes” to the question “does this make me look fat” would make me laugh and go, “yeah, ok, what about THIS one.”? But those relationships have already gone thru a whole bunch of other exchanges that made me feel like my vulnerable places are understood and cared for, and that in all things, they care for my Wholeness and happiness in this sometimes difficult world.
As to the skills themselves: there are artforms in communication as in any other act of creativity. If that baseline of trust is still being created, I might say something like, “you know, the shirt is not cut well for your figure. I think you look best in the ones that (insert descriptor - tapers here, is looser around the whatever) - here, try this one.” Make the SHIRT the problem, not the person.
And you also have to take into account the recipient. Intimacy has to allow for hearing things that might make you, the listener, feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I think it’s appropriate to negotiate HOW those things get said or communicated, and I suppose you learn those low-stakes places where a nod and a smile is the “better to be kind than right” objective for loving interactions. It is a dance that continues to change over time, as both people grow and learn and change. And that, to me, is the utter goal and joy of a well-anchored intimate relationship. It’s the learning and growing together.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
As to the skills themselves: there are artforms in communication as in any other act of creativity. If that baseline of trust is still being created, I might say something like, “you know, the shirt is not cut well for your figure. I think you look best in the ones that (insert descriptor - tapers here, is looser around the whatever) - here, try this one.” Make the SHIRT the problem, not the person.
And you also have to take into account the recipient. Intimacy has to allow for hearing things that might make you, the listener, feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I think it’s appropriate to negotiate HOW those things get said or communicated, and I suppose you learn those low-stakes places where a nod and a smile is the “better to be kind than right” objective for loving interactions. It is a dance that continues to change over time, as both people grow and learn and change. And that, to me, is the utter goal and joy of a well-anchored intimate relationship. It’s the learning and growing together.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is intimacy radical honesty? Or is it more radical trust?
If it’s the latter, that means discerning what really matters in individual moments, and acting accordingly. Sometimes that means being less honest, but the choice to do so is in service of supporting the person with what they need in that specific moment.
posted by 10ch at 6:24 AM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
If it’s the latter, that means discerning what really matters in individual moments, and acting accordingly. Sometimes that means being less honest, but the choice to do so is in service of supporting the person with what they need in that specific moment.
posted by 10ch at 6:24 AM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
I guess the shirt question can sometimes just be purely about the shirt, but sometimes it can be under-the-covers really about a whole lot of other things - confidence, body image, feelings of self-worth, how does my partner really perceive me, a bid for connection, etc. The source & also the validation of the intimacy that you have with your partner is your ability to tell the difference between each case.
If it’s just about the shirt and they’re asking for styling tips, you can answer in those terms - if it’s about something else, you’ll want to answer it differently. In either case, you could offend someone by being offhand or unhelpfully blunt or misunderstanding the context, but it’s more than just a straightforward choice between honesty & connection.
posted by Puppy McSock at 6:54 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
If it’s just about the shirt and they’re asking for styling tips, you can answer in those terms - if it’s about something else, you’ll want to answer it differently. In either case, you could offend someone by being offhand or unhelpfully blunt or misunderstanding the context, but it’s more than just a straightforward choice between honesty & connection.
posted by Puppy McSock at 6:54 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like the problem is you're asking this question about a generic "relationship" but a very specific and kind of limited definition of "intimacy." Honesty in a relationship isn't just about literal blunt truths, it's about a holistic kind of honesty. Are you showing up fully for the connection? Are you revealing thoughts and feelings honestly when they are critical to that connection? Are you revealing them in a way that shows you care about that connection?
An impulse to answer bluntly even when the answer is kind of mean merits some analysis. Maybe it's a need or a value of yours, maybe you simply cannot be comfortable enough to "show up" for the other person if you're lying even a little. In that case, you need to find other partners who prefer that, who also feel they can't "show up" for the connection unless they can be sure their partner is 100% telling the truth. Of course in this case you better be sure you can take it, as well as dish it out!
But maybe it's not a need, maybe it's a habit you learned and can unlearn. If you grew up in a household where people were blunt and critical you may have latched onto this as a way of holding power in a relationship -- to keep a person on their back foot, looking for approval. Which is NOT healthy intimacy at all, in that case.
Or, I mean...maybe you just need to learn tact? I hate the "does this make me look fat" question for a lot of reasons, and try not to ask it in my life. But of course my partner sees me, and sees how I look in things. I just know he won't be a dick about it. There's a huge difference between "LOL, you look tired" and "hon, you look a little under the weather, didn't you sleep well?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:56 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
An impulse to answer bluntly even when the answer is kind of mean merits some analysis. Maybe it's a need or a value of yours, maybe you simply cannot be comfortable enough to "show up" for the other person if you're lying even a little. In that case, you need to find other partners who prefer that, who also feel they can't "show up" for the connection unless they can be sure their partner is 100% telling the truth. Of course in this case you better be sure you can take it, as well as dish it out!
But maybe it's not a need, maybe it's a habit you learned and can unlearn. If you grew up in a household where people were blunt and critical you may have latched onto this as a way of holding power in a relationship -- to keep a person on their back foot, looking for approval. Which is NOT healthy intimacy at all, in that case.
Or, I mean...maybe you just need to learn tact? I hate the "does this make me look fat" question for a lot of reasons, and try not to ask it in my life. But of course my partner sees me, and sees how I look in things. I just know he won't be a dick about it. There's a huge difference between "LOL, you look tired" and "hon, you look a little under the weather, didn't you sleep well?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:56 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Connection is always imperfect, but there are a few things that I see in your question that might improve it.
First, recognize your partner's vulnerability. When your partner asks "Do I look fat?" they're placing themselves in a vulnerable position in front of you. When your partner shares something they did that maybe scares you, they're opening themselves up to you.
Next, put your partner first. What do they need? Do they need to hear, "Yeah, you look fat"? Do they need to hear, "That scared me"?
Nope, they do not. That is not what they're asking. Maybe they're looking to build up their confidence. Maybe they need reassurance that you find them beautiful or handsome. Maybe they're just damn proud of their accomplishment and want you to share in that moment, or they're frustrated with work, or they're concerned they spent money on something.
When you put your partner first, you won't twist in the wind when you get the "Do I look fat" question. You'll say, "You look great!" or "I love that on you," or whatever.
Don't answer their questions, meet their needs.
You might also want to do some reading on how to give helpful feedback. Criticism is a lot easier to take when it's wrapped in praise.
posted by Ookseer at 7:32 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
First, recognize your partner's vulnerability. When your partner asks "Do I look fat?" they're placing themselves in a vulnerable position in front of you. When your partner shares something they did that maybe scares you, they're opening themselves up to you.
Next, put your partner first. What do they need? Do they need to hear, "Yeah, you look fat"? Do they need to hear, "That scared me"?
Nope, they do not. That is not what they're asking. Maybe they're looking to build up their confidence. Maybe they need reassurance that you find them beautiful or handsome. Maybe they're just damn proud of their accomplishment and want you to share in that moment, or they're frustrated with work, or they're concerned they spent money on something.
When you put your partner first, you won't twist in the wind when you get the "Do I look fat" question. You'll say, "You look great!" or "I love that on you," or whatever.
Don't answer their questions, meet their needs.
You might also want to do some reading on how to give helpful feedback. Criticism is a lot easier to take when it's wrapped in praise.
posted by Ookseer at 7:32 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
If a partner is frequently asking "do I look fat" sorts of questions, the main thing I would want to do is to tackle, at a different time when there are no immediate clothing decisions to be made, what they mean and what they want from me. An honest partnership might look like in the moment saying that your partner looks nice but you do think they look even better in XYZ other thing, but at a different time, having that bigger conversation about what's behind those questions. (And in my household part of that conversation would also include "what weird body image stuff is going on behind that question," because 'looking fat' isn't a bad thing and I wouldn't be comfortable being asked to respond as if it's something to be avoided. YMMV.) Knowing what they actually want from me, I would then do my best to answer in a way that supports them while also meeting whatever needs I have around how we talk together about body image.
In the rock climbing...eh. You don't ever know what's happening in someone else's relationship. I do know in a different context that in situations where being a partner of a person in a particular kind of career has some really hard things about it, sometimes one of the ways you manage that is by being pretty honest with each other about it. It was not a surprise to my partner, when he was in a demanding and hard-on-his-partner-sometimes career, that certain things about it were difficult and that when relevant I might comment on that. We talked about it, he knew how I felt, and it was zero problem between us, but might perhaps have sounded like a weird moment to someone else listening. In your rock climber's case, it seems unlikely that the moment bothered him all that much given that it ended up in his video that he chose to edit that way and put out into the world that way.
Twenty-plus years into a relationship with some very challenging features related to disability and mental health, I guess all I can say is that over time together we have built a lot of foundational trust, love, and respect that carry us through the moments when someone says something thoughtless or asks a question that thoughtlessly traps the other partner into an answer that might be unkind. That's going to happen sometimes. If it's a big deal or a pattern we talk about it, and if it's not, I'm happy to just let the rare weird moment pass by without feeling the need to overthink it or do anything about it. I see it as part of being humans who share lives together, not as any sort of impediment to closeness.
posted by Stacey at 7:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
In the rock climbing...eh. You don't ever know what's happening in someone else's relationship. I do know in a different context that in situations where being a partner of a person in a particular kind of career has some really hard things about it, sometimes one of the ways you manage that is by being pretty honest with each other about it. It was not a surprise to my partner, when he was in a demanding and hard-on-his-partner-sometimes career, that certain things about it were difficult and that when relevant I might comment on that. We talked about it, he knew how I felt, and it was zero problem between us, but might perhaps have sounded like a weird moment to someone else listening. In your rock climber's case, it seems unlikely that the moment bothered him all that much given that it ended up in his video that he chose to edit that way and put out into the world that way.
Twenty-plus years into a relationship with some very challenging features related to disability and mental health, I guess all I can say is that over time together we have built a lot of foundational trust, love, and respect that carry us through the moments when someone says something thoughtless or asks a question that thoughtlessly traps the other partner into an answer that might be unkind. That's going to happen sometimes. If it's a big deal or a pattern we talk about it, and if it's not, I'm happy to just let the rare weird moment pass by without feeling the need to overthink it or do anything about it. I see it as part of being humans who share lives together, not as any sort of impediment to closeness.
posted by Stacey at 7:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Then, right after, she says something kind of thoughtless (maybe inconsiderate?) related to how rock climbing partnerships work.
Since this was your main example, I saw if I could find it and I believe I did. There are a couple of moments I found while skimming it where she expresses empathy for his fear, but I don't see anything that could be construed as thoughtless or inconsiderate - she is after two such moments somewhat critical of how casual they both seem while doing this potentially deadly activity, including how they sometimes joke about the possibility of him dying, but that....seems normal? And I think people who do activities like free soloing are generally aware that there is a gap between what feels reasonable to them and what seems reasonable to the average person. I imagine he assumes that his climbing is not something anyone who is not also a climber will be able to totally understand - and that seems sorta the point of this reaction video.
Some people end up coupling with people who are more or less their double - same interests, same career. But most people have parts of the themselves that the other person will never totally understand, and that's ok.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since this was your main example, I saw if I could find it and I believe I did. There are a couple of moments I found while skimming it where she expresses empathy for his fear, but I don't see anything that could be construed as thoughtless or inconsiderate - she is after two such moments somewhat critical of how casual they both seem while doing this potentially deadly activity, including how they sometimes joke about the possibility of him dying, but that....seems normal? And I think people who do activities like free soloing are generally aware that there is a gap between what feels reasonable to them and what seems reasonable to the average person. I imagine he assumes that his climbing is not something anyone who is not also a climber will be able to totally understand - and that seems sorta the point of this reaction video.
Some people end up coupling with people who are more or less their double - same interests, same career. But most people have parts of the themselves that the other person will never totally understand, and that's ok.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Maintain is the operative word. Intimacy and connection aren't set-and-forget, it is built and maintained as you go, and for any real relationship that's going to mean having to deal with the intrusions of the real world and real imperfect people who don't always say the right thing.
But I'd love to know, in your second example, if the second thing she said was about her own fears and experience watching him. Because that's legitimate, her experience. It's not women's jobs to only say sweetie-fuzzy things to men to preserve some perfect record of "connection". Partners tell each other about the hard shit, and support each other through the hard shit, and that too is connection. People tell each other if they're leaving the house in something stained or damaged, and maybe even not-very-flattering, if that's the negotiated terms of their relationship. It's part of teamwork, which is a way more powerful form of connection and intimacy than only ever saying positive things. Relationships require working stuff out, otherwise it's not really a relationship and more customer service.
Most people do not always have access to the best words at the right moment. You can't set relationship expectations that they must do so.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:23 AM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
But I'd love to know, in your second example, if the second thing she said was about her own fears and experience watching him. Because that's legitimate, her experience. It's not women's jobs to only say sweetie-fuzzy things to men to preserve some perfect record of "connection". Partners tell each other about the hard shit, and support each other through the hard shit, and that too is connection. People tell each other if they're leaving the house in something stained or damaged, and maybe even not-very-flattering, if that's the negotiated terms of their relationship. It's part of teamwork, which is a way more powerful form of connection and intimacy than only ever saying positive things. Relationships require working stuff out, otherwise it's not really a relationship and more customer service.
Most people do not always have access to the best words at the right moment. You can't set relationship expectations that they must do so.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:23 AM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: @coffeecat
Great detective work! I can't remember the specifics of when I thought she was a little thoughtless--maybe she was just sort of strikingly lacking in knowledge about how rock climbing teams work. Striking given that she's married to a professional climber (i.e., shouldn't she be a little more motivated to learn about how he spends his time?).
I'm going to re-watch because I do find both their relationship and the cultural differences they evince as Norwegians really interesting.
posted by Jon44 at 10:46 AM on July 13, 2023
Great detective work! I can't remember the specifics of when I thought she was a little thoughtless--maybe she was just sort of strikingly lacking in knowledge about how rock climbing teams work. Striking given that she's married to a professional climber (i.e., shouldn't she be a little more motivated to learn about how he spends his time?).
I'm going to re-watch because I do find both their relationship and the cultural differences they evince as Norwegians really interesting.
posted by Jon44 at 10:46 AM on July 13, 2023
if a partner says "does this new shirt make me look fat" and consideration for their feelings demands the answer "no", but the truth is "yes", how do I internally keep the sense of being in an honest, open partnership?
Well, consideration for their feelings might demand that you not answer "yes", but that does not mean that you have to answer "no." You can answer "Eh, the cut is what it is but the pattern's great" (if you have the kind of relationship where you talk about clothes and how they work) or "I think you look lovely as always" (if you really don't) or a lot of variations that answer the implied question (which is "do I look good in this?") and avoid the literal question (which is "do I meet socially acceptable standards of thinness", which is a shitty question with only shitty answers.)
You absolutely can (and if you're asking this question, probably should) bring up the subject at a completely separate time with "I know how you look is a sensitive issue and sometimes I feel put on the spot in a way I don't know how to handle gracefully. Can we talk about what kind of reactions are supportive and helpful for you and what I should avoid?" That kind of conversation is how you get to real emotional honesty, not always having the perfect reply in the moment.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:32 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, consideration for their feelings might demand that you not answer "yes", but that does not mean that you have to answer "no." You can answer "Eh, the cut is what it is but the pattern's great" (if you have the kind of relationship where you talk about clothes and how they work) or "I think you look lovely as always" (if you really don't) or a lot of variations that answer the implied question (which is "do I look good in this?") and avoid the literal question (which is "do I meet socially acceptable standards of thinness", which is a shitty question with only shitty answers.)
You absolutely can (and if you're asking this question, probably should) bring up the subject at a completely separate time with "I know how you look is a sensitive issue and sometimes I feel put on the spot in a way I don't know how to handle gracefully. Can we talk about what kind of reactions are supportive and helpful for you and what I should avoid?" That kind of conversation is how you get to real emotional honesty, not always having the perfect reply in the moment.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:32 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Usually for me the "does this make me look fat" comes up in the context of shopping, not limited to romantic relationship. I usually discuss the specific features of the garment that are unflattering, which is much more useful in this situation than a yes or no answer. I also point out what works about the clothing as that is also useful to know.
Example: The cut is flattering but the black band emphasizes (non-shaming word for body part)
posted by yohko at 2:41 PM on July 13, 2023
Example: The cut is flattering but the black band emphasizes (non-shaming word for body part)
posted by yohko at 2:41 PM on July 13, 2023
Don't answer their questions, meet their needs.
I appreciate this formulation. I also like "Answer their questions in a way that meets their needs."
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:27 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I appreciate this formulation. I also like "Answer their questions in a way that meets their needs."
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:27 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sometimes 'do I look fat in this' means 'i feel self-conscious in this and need reassurance'
but sometimes it means 'is this item flattering'
which are different sorts of answers. Partners and friends can develop a language that works for them to understand what's driving the question, and answer appropriately. It's hard to have the language conversation in the moment though.
posted by ApathyGirl at 3:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
but sometimes it means 'is this item flattering'
which are different sorts of answers. Partners and friends can develop a language that works for them to understand what's driving the question, and answer appropriately. It's hard to have the language conversation in the moment though.
posted by ApathyGirl at 3:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
My best friend and I have a wonderfully honest relationship, but more than either of us wants to be honest, our primary goal is for the other one to be confident and powerful. So, we are truthful when truthfulness is helpful, and when truthfulness would erode confidence or power, we tell selective truths or even lie.
So if one of us asked, "is this dress flattering?" about a dress that's only so-so... depending on the context, the answer could be:
When shopping with no pressure, -> "no, I think it's kind of weird on the boobs." (because there's time to get a better one)
When shopping but with time pressure or low self-esteem, -> "ooh, that colour is gorgeous!" (because there's no time to get a better one, and the person's confidence is waning, so let's solve the dress problem as best we can without any more stress that will detract from the person's ability to be confident and effective at the event where the dress will be worn).
When almost ready to leave for a presentation -> "You look AMAZING! You're gonna nail this meeting!" because at that point the dress doesn't matter at all and can't be fixed, but an extra shot of confidence can really make a difference.)
So in all cases, we are truthful, but the truth we tell isn't about the dress. The most important foundational truth is, "I sincerely want to support you in the goal of being the best, least stressed, and most confident person you can actually be. I will try to understand your priorities, values, and feelings so I can help you achieve your goals. I will be honest when it helps you, and will even sometimes sidestep the truth and just be supportive and constructive, when that's what it takes for you to be at your best in a given important situation."
To me, that's what love is, and that's what friendships and relationships are for.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:22 PM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
So if one of us asked, "is this dress flattering?" about a dress that's only so-so... depending on the context, the answer could be:
When shopping with no pressure, -> "no, I think it's kind of weird on the boobs." (because there's time to get a better one)
When shopping but with time pressure or low self-esteem, -> "ooh, that colour is gorgeous!" (because there's no time to get a better one, and the person's confidence is waning, so let's solve the dress problem as best we can without any more stress that will detract from the person's ability to be confident and effective at the event where the dress will be worn).
When almost ready to leave for a presentation -> "You look AMAZING! You're gonna nail this meeting!" because at that point the dress doesn't matter at all and can't be fixed, but an extra shot of confidence can really make a difference.)
So in all cases, we are truthful, but the truth we tell isn't about the dress. The most important foundational truth is, "I sincerely want to support you in the goal of being the best, least stressed, and most confident person you can actually be. I will try to understand your priorities, values, and feelings so I can help you achieve your goals. I will be honest when it helps you, and will even sometimes sidestep the truth and just be supportive and constructive, when that's what it takes for you to be at your best in a given important situation."
To me, that's what love is, and that's what friendships and relationships are for.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:22 PM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
The key thing to connection and intimacy is that it is never about just that one moment - it is a temperature read on the entire relationship.
People get things wrong all the time.
If the conversation is just about the thing people are talking about, it is easy.
- Does this dress make me look fat?
- Well, those stripes across the stomach aren't very flattering.
- OK, I'll wear a different one.
But when the conversation is (or becomes) a measure of the relationship, it gets complicated very fast.
- Does this dress make me look fat?
- Well, those stripes across the stomach aren't very flattering.
- That was mean! You hurt my feelings! (thinking: because that means you think I am unattractive and probably don't really love me all that much and will drop me for a prettier person any day now)
- I was just telling the truth - what do you want from me? ( thinking: oh, #@$, I messed up again. obviously me being me is not working for her and she is going to be breaking up with me any day now because I am so bad at relationships)
The more people in a relationship are capable of being vulnerable and honest and loving, they better able they will be to deal with the problems in a way that brings them closer. (The opposite is when people get their protective defenses activated which almost always cause more distance.)
The skill is to learn what to do when things go off the rails - to slow down, apologize the missed connection, try to figure out what is really going on and assure each other that despite the specifics, underneath you really care and value the relationship.
posted by metahawk at 6:45 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
People get things wrong all the time.
If the conversation is just about the thing people are talking about, it is easy.
- Does this dress make me look fat?
- Well, those stripes across the stomach aren't very flattering.
- OK, I'll wear a different one.
But when the conversation is (or becomes) a measure of the relationship, it gets complicated very fast.
- Does this dress make me look fat?
- Well, those stripes across the stomach aren't very flattering.
- That was mean! You hurt my feelings! (thinking: because that means you think I am unattractive and probably don't really love me all that much and will drop me for a prettier person any day now)
- I was just telling the truth - what do you want from me? ( thinking: oh, #@$, I messed up again. obviously me being me is not working for her and she is going to be breaking up with me any day now because I am so bad at relationships)
The more people in a relationship are capable of being vulnerable and honest and loving, they better able they will be to deal with the problems in a way that brings them closer. (The opposite is when people get their protective defenses activated which almost always cause more distance.)
The skill is to learn what to do when things go off the rails - to slow down, apologize the missed connection, try to figure out what is really going on and assure each other that despite the specifics, underneath you really care and value the relationship.
posted by metahawk at 6:45 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
In your first example, you characterize a husband being hurtful as "honest" and (this is crucial) "THE truth". If he says something considerate and lovely, that must be a lie. So, like, you've assumed this woman looks like a total piece of shit with no redeeming features. Right? Because the husband finds it impossible to say something both nice and honest to her in response?
In your second example, a wife focuses her appreciative attention on her husband for hours (that's how long it took to tape that segment!). She says all kinds of lovely things about him and his work. And you take it for granted that she is of course being both nice and honest. Indeed you have implicitly assumed he must be a god among men about whom there IS no harsh truth to be said (that pertains to the segment's subject, at least). You have never considered the possibility that his wife might be picking and choosing only the wonderful truths about him to present, and deliberately leaving the thorny truths unspoken.
How do I conclude this? Because when she makes one comment near the end you characterize it only as "thoughtless" and "inconsiderate" (not as"honest"). It can't be the truth. She's just mean.
Interesting, isn't it? Where is your handwringing for the integrity of this woman's soul and for the ease of her conscience and the terrible dilemma she must have faced between truth vs. consideration? No, you just lament the hurt feelings of that poor poor man who has to endure her inconsiderate comment (....after literally hours of being pumped up by her).
Imagine if the husband in the first example had spent hours and hours completely focusing on his wife's wonderful good looks and great sartorial taste, enthusiastically praising her wardrobe choices and how well she wears clothes, showing deep interest in the nuances and the expertise that goes into her get-dressed routine, and expressing deep admiration for all of it..... and then near the very end when she shows him one of the last outfits and asks "Does my butt look fat in this?" and he answers "Yeah, this outfit draws the eye towards your lower half," - not in a million years would this guy be labeled inconsiderate. He, like the rock climber's wife, would be understood to have spoken from a deep well of understanding, empathy, appreciation, and love - all of which have very recently been abundantly demonstrated to her.
All of this is to say: I think you, like most people, may be holding female partners to a wildly unequal standard of supportiveness owed towards their male partners, and simultaneously stretching logic to find excuses for men's habitual inconsideration as "honesty". Most outrageous to me is the way you're framing anything other than a hurtful answer as "lying".
posted by MiraK at 7:49 PM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
In your second example, a wife focuses her appreciative attention on her husband for hours (that's how long it took to tape that segment!). She says all kinds of lovely things about him and his work. And you take it for granted that she is of course being both nice and honest. Indeed you have implicitly assumed he must be a god among men about whom there IS no harsh truth to be said (that pertains to the segment's subject, at least). You have never considered the possibility that his wife might be picking and choosing only the wonderful truths about him to present, and deliberately leaving the thorny truths unspoken.
How do I conclude this? Because when she makes one comment near the end you characterize it only as "thoughtless" and "inconsiderate" (not as"honest"). It can't be the truth. She's just mean.
Interesting, isn't it? Where is your handwringing for the integrity of this woman's soul and for the ease of her conscience and the terrible dilemma she must have faced between truth vs. consideration? No, you just lament the hurt feelings of that poor poor man who has to endure her inconsiderate comment (....after literally hours of being pumped up by her).
Imagine if the husband in the first example had spent hours and hours completely focusing on his wife's wonderful good looks and great sartorial taste, enthusiastically praising her wardrobe choices and how well she wears clothes, showing deep interest in the nuances and the expertise that goes into her get-dressed routine, and expressing deep admiration for all of it..... and then near the very end when she shows him one of the last outfits and asks "Does my butt look fat in this?" and he answers "Yeah, this outfit draws the eye towards your lower half," - not in a million years would this guy be labeled inconsiderate. He, like the rock climber's wife, would be understood to have spoken from a deep well of understanding, empathy, appreciation, and love - all of which have very recently been abundantly demonstrated to her.
All of this is to say: I think you, like most people, may be holding female partners to a wildly unequal standard of supportiveness owed towards their male partners, and simultaneously stretching logic to find excuses for men's habitual inconsideration as "honesty". Most outrageous to me is the way you're framing anything other than a hurtful answer as "lying".
posted by MiraK at 7:49 PM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
Yeah I looked at that video too. I used to live that life, being married to a spouse who was passionate about hazardous sports that could easily have meant not coming home from any given outing. All I saw on the part of that woman in the video was a very sincere effort to learn what was going on in that climb and to support her husband and to understand.
I think the guy's wife is doing the most genuinely supportive thing you can do in that position, which is to be interested and try to understand, despite whatever misgivings you may have. I think the way you are framing it is more or less along the lines of, "I have a certain thought in my head; to what extent do I express it unfiltered or to what extent do I have to temper it?" That is, to me, not the most productive way of viewing how it is that a conversation takes place and many of the previous answers have suggested other ways it could go. Whenever you find yourself in a conversation, what are the ways you can open it up to greater understanding? During a meaningful conversation, your thoughts should be evolving, not just waiting there to be spit out of your mouth like pebbles. Or swallowed, I guess.
posted by BibiRose at 7:09 AM on July 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think the guy's wife is doing the most genuinely supportive thing you can do in that position, which is to be interested and try to understand, despite whatever misgivings you may have. I think the way you are framing it is more or less along the lines of, "I have a certain thought in my head; to what extent do I express it unfiltered or to what extent do I have to temper it?" That is, to me, not the most productive way of viewing how it is that a conversation takes place and many of the previous answers have suggested other ways it could go. Whenever you find yourself in a conversation, what are the ways you can open it up to greater understanding? During a meaningful conversation, your thoughts should be evolving, not just waiting there to be spit out of your mouth like pebbles. Or swallowed, I guess.
posted by BibiRose at 7:09 AM on July 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
In general, you do it by prioritizing being as kind and loving to your partner as possible.
It is not loving to tell your partner "you look fat in that dress."
But it is also not loving to encourage them to wear a garment that is unflattering, if a better option exists. In a case like that, if I've asked for the feedback, I appreciate being told "there's something not quite right about that dress, you have others that work better." (If your partner just IS fat and it's not that the garment is specifically unflattering, then there's no point going into that.)
If the feedback has not been requested, then it's usually better to not offer it.
WRT to the conversation you witnessed, I wouldn't assume you know how the guy is taking his wife's comments. (I remember being rebuked once by a new acquaintance because my husband and I were looking at some family photos with him and I commented on how my husband's hair was so much darker in the photos. (My husband and I both love his silvering hair, and we have an in-joke about how he used to look like a kid well into his adulthood.) I don't know why the acquaintance thought he knew better than I what was ok to say to my husband, but he wasn't invited back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:20 AM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is not loving to tell your partner "you look fat in that dress."
But it is also not loving to encourage them to wear a garment that is unflattering, if a better option exists. In a case like that, if I've asked for the feedback, I appreciate being told "there's something not quite right about that dress, you have others that work better." (If your partner just IS fat and it's not that the garment is specifically unflattering, then there's no point going into that.)
If the feedback has not been requested, then it's usually better to not offer it.
WRT to the conversation you witnessed, I wouldn't assume you know how the guy is taking his wife's comments. (I remember being rebuked once by a new acquaintance because my husband and I were looking at some family photos with him and I commented on how my husband's hair was so much darker in the photos. (My husband and I both love his silvering hair, and we have an in-joke about how he used to look like a kid well into his adulthood.) I don't know why the acquaintance thought he knew better than I what was ok to say to my husband, but he wasn't invited back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:20 AM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted; please don't argue / debate in Ask Metafilter. OP, you don't need to agree to every answer; just take the info in and consider what is most helpful to you. And answerers, do try to be actually helpful in terms of the question OP is asking. You may see something they are overlooking, or you may interpret something differently than they do, and that's fine, but try to frame your comments in a helpful way.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:26 PM on July 14, 2023
posted by taz (staff) at 11:26 PM on July 14, 2023
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posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:48 AM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]