Is there hope for overcoming social anxiety?
April 5, 2023 11:40 AM Subscribe
A while ago I posted a question about whether shyness was genetic or not and whether the only solution was meds.
Quite a few of you cottoned on that my real question was, is there any hope for the socially anxious?
So, I hope it's ok for me to come back and try again with the real question.
I have been intensely anxious, shy and self conscious forever (apart from with family). I don't know how much trauma from my upbringing has played it's part, as most of my siblings are very shy and anxious. My Mum is very socially anxious and loses herself in people pleasing when around people, my Dad is pretty unsociable and avoids people unless he can rant at them - it's hard to unpick, even for them, how much of it is trauma related.
I just have a very strong feeling there is a genetic predisposition to neuroticism, introversion and sensitivity. I only say that because I know of other people from abusive backgrounds and they haven't developed this level of social anxiety; although, admittedly social isolation and control was a huge part of the abuse.
Anyway, I lost hope as a late teen as it got worse. I always had palmar hyperhidrosis and at 17, my face would start going very red when embarrassed. I am dark skinned, so this came as a bit of a shock to me. I started avoiding people, hiding in the library. I gave up hope of becoming a doctor, chose Accounting after googling "jobs for shy people". Shame attacks, self loathing, despair and ultimately depression set in, in a big way.
University was worse, I couldn't even queue up outside the lecture hall. I would hide in the toilets and come in later and I spent 90% of my time in the library or hiding in the toilets. I've already gone on enough about how sad that now makes me feel.
Cut to the present. Meds helped me become a bit more apathetic to people's judgement of me and stopped the red face. I was able to hold down a retail job.
However, I tried coming off meds and whilst it has boosted my motivation and I feel like I've processed a backlog of emotions, the social anxiety is back. I have to lead one to one meetings with Heads at work, some of whom are quite difficult and confrontational and I'm dreading doing them alone, my face has already gone red and I've struggled. My director spoke quite patronisingly to me today, like I was a teenager - I'm 34.
I feel like I'm still stuck psychologically as a terrified 11 year old girl and it depresses me to think I'm going to be like this at 40 and onwards.
I guess I'm asking, has anyone meaningfully made progress with this? Or has anyone reached a point where they are able to love themselves despite being very socially anxious and therefore low achieving and low functioning? Is there any peace to be had with this condition?
I have been intensely anxious, shy and self conscious forever (apart from with family). I don't know how much trauma from my upbringing has played it's part, as most of my siblings are very shy and anxious. My Mum is very socially anxious and loses herself in people pleasing when around people, my Dad is pretty unsociable and avoids people unless he can rant at them - it's hard to unpick, even for them, how much of it is trauma related.
I just have a very strong feeling there is a genetic predisposition to neuroticism, introversion and sensitivity. I only say that because I know of other people from abusive backgrounds and they haven't developed this level of social anxiety; although, admittedly social isolation and control was a huge part of the abuse.
Anyway, I lost hope as a late teen as it got worse. I always had palmar hyperhidrosis and at 17, my face would start going very red when embarrassed. I am dark skinned, so this came as a bit of a shock to me. I started avoiding people, hiding in the library. I gave up hope of becoming a doctor, chose Accounting after googling "jobs for shy people". Shame attacks, self loathing, despair and ultimately depression set in, in a big way.
University was worse, I couldn't even queue up outside the lecture hall. I would hide in the toilets and come in later and I spent 90% of my time in the library or hiding in the toilets. I've already gone on enough about how sad that now makes me feel.
Cut to the present. Meds helped me become a bit more apathetic to people's judgement of me and stopped the red face. I was able to hold down a retail job.
However, I tried coming off meds and whilst it has boosted my motivation and I feel like I've processed a backlog of emotions, the social anxiety is back. I have to lead one to one meetings with Heads at work, some of whom are quite difficult and confrontational and I'm dreading doing them alone, my face has already gone red and I've struggled. My director spoke quite patronisingly to me today, like I was a teenager - I'm 34.
I feel like I'm still stuck psychologically as a terrified 11 year old girl and it depresses me to think I'm going to be like this at 40 and onwards.
I guess I'm asking, has anyone meaningfully made progress with this? Or has anyone reached a point where they are able to love themselves despite being very socially anxious and therefore low achieving and low functioning? Is there any peace to be had with this condition?
Best answer: Oh, I also spent my college years living with a family other than my family of origin, which was full of people who were (with one exception) not remotely socially anxious. I think that positive modeling helped a ton as well.
posted by brook horse at 12:04 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brook horse at 12:04 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes. This is from an article on neuroplasticity:
Neuroplasticity is the brain’s capacity to continue growing and evolving in response to life experiences. Plasticity is the capacity to be shaped, molded, or altered; neuroplasticity, then, is the ability for the brain to adapt or change over time, by creating new neurons and building new networks.posted by aniola at 12:22 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Historically, scientists believed that the brain stopped growing after childhood. But current research shows that the brain is able to continue growing and changing throughout the lifespan, refining its architecture or shifting functions to different regions of the brain.
The importance of neuroplasticity can’t be overstated: It means that it is possible to change dysfunctional patterns of thinking and behaving and to develop new mindsets, new memories, new skills, and new abilities.
It's not a quick or easy fix, but the answer here really is therapy and medication. It's not clear why you went off the meds--I know they have side effects--but finding something you can tolerate is critical with the level of anxiety you're describing. If you are already in therapy, perhaps a more focused kind of therapy would be beneficial? Anxiety disorders really are disorders of the nervous system. I can guarantee you that you're not "low functioning" and this isn't some kind of personal failure. Learning to deconstruct some of the blame and angst you describe is going to be really critical to improving your life.
I would also strongly consider what exactly you want out of life that the anxiety is hindering. It is super valid and okay to be a person that enjoys staying in and doesn't like crowds. If you're happy being an introvert and only hanging out with friends one-on-one, that is totally okay. You don't need to change it. Your preferences are not a pathology. That's not to say that your struggles are invalid; I just think there's an advantage to identifying very specific scenarios that are causing you distress at this moment, then coming up with specific strategies to better handle those scenarios. Start with the work scenario. Set a goal for yourself that won't be too hard to meet, i.e. speak up literally one time in a meeting.
Then practice some self-compassion. You can cope with the anxiety without viewing this condition as a problem that stands in the way of you loving yourself. I suspect learning to practice some kindness with yourself will go a LONG ways toward reducing your anxiety and improving your life. Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 1:52 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would also strongly consider what exactly you want out of life that the anxiety is hindering. It is super valid and okay to be a person that enjoys staying in and doesn't like crowds. If you're happy being an introvert and only hanging out with friends one-on-one, that is totally okay. You don't need to change it. Your preferences are not a pathology. That's not to say that your struggles are invalid; I just think there's an advantage to identifying very specific scenarios that are causing you distress at this moment, then coming up with specific strategies to better handle those scenarios. Start with the work scenario. Set a goal for yourself that won't be too hard to meet, i.e. speak up literally one time in a meeting.
Then practice some self-compassion. You can cope with the anxiety without viewing this condition as a problem that stands in the way of you loving yourself. I suspect learning to practice some kindness with yourself will go a LONG ways toward reducing your anxiety and improving your life. Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 1:52 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I ended up getting put in a sink-or-swim situation at work where I had to interact with high-profile people regularly. Like, for 3-ish years I led presentations/briefings to people you’ve seen on the news (if you’re in the US). My interest in the work and desire to keep getting paid overrode my fear, and because it was a structured interaction (I prepare and present the next iteration of a progress report slide deck, and field related questions about a thing I knew deeply), I was able to get very comfortable with that kind of interaction.
The other thing that helped me earlier in life was taking acting classes, which are the low-stakes, low pressure version of that interaction. Theater kids are pretty universally positive, at least in acting 101!
posted by Alterscape at 2:03 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The other thing that helped me earlier in life was taking acting classes, which are the low-stakes, low pressure version of that interaction. Theater kids are pretty universally positive, at least in acting 101!
posted by Alterscape at 2:03 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
+1 to brook horse's comment about positive modeling.
Seeking out and spending time with people who are not at all socially anxious has helped me so much.
I used to be extremely socially anxious, to the point where I never felt like "myself".
I still struggle with social anxiety, but it's more of a background annoyance now rather than the defining feature of my life.
posted by mekily at 2:33 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seeking out and spending time with people who are not at all socially anxious has helped me so much.
I used to be extremely socially anxious, to the point where I never felt like "myself".
I still struggle with social anxiety, but it's more of a background annoyance now rather than the defining feature of my life.
posted by mekily at 2:33 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Possibly, unless you are autistic , in which case it's helpful to know that you can't be diagnosed with social anxiety if you are autistic because what you are experiencing might look and feel like Social Anxiety, but the cause (and treatment) is different.
If your difficulties in social situations is caused by having a different nervous system and brain than other people, then the therapy that helps those other people won't help you and might traumatise you.
This is one of the many reasons it's vital to know whether or not you are autistic, if you experience anxiety and depression.
Some links about this topic
How to tell the difference between social anxiety and autism
Neurodivergent insights on the overlap between social anxiety and autism
posted by Zumbador at 9:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
If your difficulties in social situations is caused by having a different nervous system and brain than other people, then the therapy that helps those other people won't help you and might traumatise you.
This is one of the many reasons it's vital to know whether or not you are autistic, if you experience anxiety and depression.
Some links about this topic
How to tell the difference between social anxiety and autism
Neurodivergent insights on the overlap between social anxiety and autism
posted by Zumbador at 9:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Find somewhere where people like you. Where people don't talk over you, don't seem to be controlling a sigh when they do let you speak and who laugh at your jokes. There's a context where you are the charming one.
The shitty irony is that the anxiety makes it harder to do this. However, much as I am opposed to the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, what you need is an extrovert wingman. Many of the bubblier types enjoy dragging a barely willing victim to social events and seeing them find their people. By social events I might mean a circus post-party or a magic-the-gathering card-opening meeting. Being in contexts where you are more than tolerated, but appreciated, where people look forward to you joining them and will adjust plans so you can make it, who won't repeat the funny thing you said but louder, who dab you when you turn up, that will knead that beautifully plastic brain of yours into gorgeous new crinkles that survive and can't be ironed out by the contexts where you maybe aren't as comfortable. So yes. Also if you tried medication and it didn't help, i did too until i realised it's like heart medication, not headache medication, i need to take it, a low dose, every day and then those spikes don't come because the anxiety doesn't get w chance to build that critical mass. I still experience worry, stress, excitement etc as most people do, but u no longer need to feel like i am going to die if the music is maybe too loud in the restaurant that i picked for the friendgroup.
posted by Iteki at 11:17 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The shitty irony is that the anxiety makes it harder to do this. However, much as I am opposed to the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, what you need is an extrovert wingman. Many of the bubblier types enjoy dragging a barely willing victim to social events and seeing them find their people. By social events I might mean a circus post-party or a magic-the-gathering card-opening meeting. Being in contexts where you are more than tolerated, but appreciated, where people look forward to you joining them and will adjust plans so you can make it, who won't repeat the funny thing you said but louder, who dab you when you turn up, that will knead that beautifully plastic brain of yours into gorgeous new crinkles that survive and can't be ironed out by the contexts where you maybe aren't as comfortable. So yes. Also if you tried medication and it didn't help, i did too until i realised it's like heart medication, not headache medication, i need to take it, a low dose, every day and then those spikes don't come because the anxiety doesn't get w chance to build that critical mass. I still experience worry, stress, excitement etc as most people do, but u no longer need to feel like i am going to die if the music is maybe too loud in the restaurant that i picked for the friendgroup.
posted by Iteki at 11:17 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes. Social anxiety was a big feature of my life, and now I'd say I'm 85% over it. I think I basically grew out of it, which isn't a very helpful answer, but here are some things that helped:
- I was really shy, so I avoided interacting people and didn't develop social skills, so when I did interact with them, I genuinely didn't know what to do and got anxious. That spiral also works the other way, where as I interacted with people more (partially just through the course of being alive longer), I improved those skills and was less anxious because I knew what to do more often.
- A key component of this was dating. Interacting with people in unstructured social situations was really stressful because of the uncertainty. Do they want to talk to me? Am I saying the right sort of things? How do I know if they want to be friends? With dating, I matched online with someone and they explicitly asked me out or accepted my invitation, so I knew they wanted to be there. Then I went on sooo many first dates that it honestly became sort of rote. I had my lil anecdotes down and I could relax about whether I was being "normal" and get lots of conversational practice. And finally, although romantic relationships can have plenty of ambiguity, they also have more concrete "this person doesn't hate me" markers than friendship. I was able to take some of the confidence from my dating success (success being getting through the date in one piece!) into the rest of my life.
- Desperation. I had improved at lot by that point, but I was really lonely working from home during the start of the pandemic. It pushed me to make social overtures I would have deemed "too risky" normally, just so I didn't go insane. Relatedly, I had a semi-conscious belief that because I was shy, other people had an obligation to put themselves out there and basically do all the work of building our relationship. I had to really accept that a) that's not fair or reasonable and b) I only tend to meet people willing to do that every five or ten years, which is not very efficient.
- Honestly getting stoned and taking long introspective walks has been more helpful to me than my various forays into therapy or medication, but ymmv.
posted by umwelt at 11:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
- I was really shy, so I avoided interacting people and didn't develop social skills, so when I did interact with them, I genuinely didn't know what to do and got anxious. That spiral also works the other way, where as I interacted with people more (partially just through the course of being alive longer), I improved those skills and was less anxious because I knew what to do more often.
- A key component of this was dating. Interacting with people in unstructured social situations was really stressful because of the uncertainty. Do they want to talk to me? Am I saying the right sort of things? How do I know if they want to be friends? With dating, I matched online with someone and they explicitly asked me out or accepted my invitation, so I knew they wanted to be there. Then I went on sooo many first dates that it honestly became sort of rote. I had my lil anecdotes down and I could relax about whether I was being "normal" and get lots of conversational practice. And finally, although romantic relationships can have plenty of ambiguity, they also have more concrete "this person doesn't hate me" markers than friendship. I was able to take some of the confidence from my dating success (success being getting through the date in one piece!) into the rest of my life.
- Desperation. I had improved at lot by that point, but I was really lonely working from home during the start of the pandemic. It pushed me to make social overtures I would have deemed "too risky" normally, just so I didn't go insane. Relatedly, I had a semi-conscious belief that because I was shy, other people had an obligation to put themselves out there and basically do all the work of building our relationship. I had to really accept that a) that's not fair or reasonable and b) I only tend to meet people willing to do that every five or ten years, which is not very efficient.
- Honestly getting stoned and taking long introspective walks has been more helpful to me than my various forays into therapy or medication, but ymmv.
posted by umwelt at 11:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you want a sandbox to try out meeting behaviors Toastmasters has some low-stakes opportunities and you can attend meetings as a guest for a while. A recent guest mentioned fainting at a high school presentation, and did not when encouraged to mention anything they liked about the meeting. Some employers have a group, or internal professional development that is similar.
posted by childofTethys at 5:31 AM on April 6, 2023
posted by childofTethys at 5:31 AM on April 6, 2023
One of the great joys of my late thirties and early forties has been a slow but steady cessation of giving a fuck what other people think, along with an increased ability to arrange my own life in a way that suits me. I don't know whether to describe the end result of this as decreased social anxiety, or simply increased ability to arrange my life such that the social anxiety doesn't affect me as much.
Meds and therapy were part of it - I heartily encourage you to continue to explore both, which might mean changing therapists or trying a different class of meds.
Getting to be friends with more people who were like me in key ways - neurodivergent in some way, dealing with mental health stuff, introverted, whatever - helped a lot. Loving those things in the people I loved helped me to embrace them myself, and to understand that there's no need to measure myself against the norms of the rest of the world when I am quite happy with the norms of the people I am actually in community with.
The passage of time also does some work here. I'm not saying there aren't frustrations with the whole "middle aged women become invisible" thing but my GOD, it's freeing, too. When the eyes of the world aren't assessing how fuckable you are at all times, it's a lot easier to relax into your own skin and stop caring so much about how people look at you. Because they stop looking. And it makes so much more space to breathe. I know that part doesn't help you right now, but since you talk about being worried about what you'll feel like at forty and onwards - based on looking around at my friends, I want to tell you that you might feel great even if you don't find the magic bullet for yourself. The simple process of growing up, and building up more workplace and social capital in your life at the same time there are fewer eyes paying any attention to how you use it, might be incredibly freeing for you. It has been for a lot of my people.
posted by Stacey at 5:53 AM on April 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Meds and therapy were part of it - I heartily encourage you to continue to explore both, which might mean changing therapists or trying a different class of meds.
Getting to be friends with more people who were like me in key ways - neurodivergent in some way, dealing with mental health stuff, introverted, whatever - helped a lot. Loving those things in the people I loved helped me to embrace them myself, and to understand that there's no need to measure myself against the norms of the rest of the world when I am quite happy with the norms of the people I am actually in community with.
The passage of time also does some work here. I'm not saying there aren't frustrations with the whole "middle aged women become invisible" thing but my GOD, it's freeing, too. When the eyes of the world aren't assessing how fuckable you are at all times, it's a lot easier to relax into your own skin and stop caring so much about how people look at you. Because they stop looking. And it makes so much more space to breathe. I know that part doesn't help you right now, but since you talk about being worried about what you'll feel like at forty and onwards - based on looking around at my friends, I want to tell you that you might feel great even if you don't find the magic bullet for yourself. The simple process of growing up, and building up more workplace and social capital in your life at the same time there are fewer eyes paying any attention to how you use it, might be incredibly freeing for you. It has been for a lot of my people.
posted by Stacey at 5:53 AM on April 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
You might find it comforting / heartening to read the memoir Red Face by Russell Norris.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:04 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
"As an adolescent, Russell’s face and neck would turn crimson at the slightest thing. In his twenties he began suffering from an extreme form of blushing (idiopathic craniofacial erythema). It sent out all the wrong signals — to friends, family and to the opposite sex. And it triggered something worse: Social Anxiety Disorder [...] Through trial and error, he discovered a way to overcome social anxiety and live a fulfilling and rich life."It's well-written, and I think you might find it very relatable.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:04 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have significant social anxiety, I'm an extrovert, and I have attention deficit disorder. I have exceptional coping skills some of the time, so people do not believe me when I say I have social phobia. It can be very difficult to leave the house; this is much worse since Covid isolation.
My family was pretty dysfunctional, with a workaholic Dad, alcoholic & bipolar Mom, siblings with mental health and bullying issues, and a much younger sibling with significant disabilities. I married and divorced an emotionally narcissistic jerk; we have a child with bipolar disorder.
I have not found a therapist who's really competent with it. Zoloft is a help. I typically carry Xanax and take a tiny dose for panic. What helps is exercise, sunshine, nature on a regular basis. Having a solid routine of getting up, making meals, work, exercise is very helpful. It can be helpful to take a class to have an organized way of being around people, which I like, in a low-stress way. Adult Ed., crafts, exercise, all kinds of group activity help a lot. Some form of CBT to deal with falsehoods my brain wants to tell me. Rewards systems really work, behavior modification can help you de-sensitize activities so you can live your life. Having a dog is a big help; they are loving, fun, and need to go on walks.
Most people don't notice you. Some people are judgmental jerks, but their judgment is usually stupid. We're all imperfect in wildly different ways. You deserve to be able to live your life. You deserve a place in the world.
posted by Mom at 10:32 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My family was pretty dysfunctional, with a workaholic Dad, alcoholic & bipolar Mom, siblings with mental health and bullying issues, and a much younger sibling with significant disabilities. I married and divorced an emotionally narcissistic jerk; we have a child with bipolar disorder.
I have not found a therapist who's really competent with it. Zoloft is a help. I typically carry Xanax and take a tiny dose for panic. What helps is exercise, sunshine, nature on a regular basis. Having a solid routine of getting up, making meals, work, exercise is very helpful. It can be helpful to take a class to have an organized way of being around people, which I like, in a low-stress way. Adult Ed., crafts, exercise, all kinds of group activity help a lot. Some form of CBT to deal with falsehoods my brain wants to tell me. Rewards systems really work, behavior modification can help you de-sensitize activities so you can live your life. Having a dog is a big help; they are loving, fun, and need to go on walks.
Most people don't notice you. Some people are judgmental jerks, but their judgment is usually stupid. We're all imperfect in wildly different ways. You deserve to be able to live your life. You deserve a place in the world.
posted by Mom at 10:32 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
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My in-laws now tease me about "How did you get so stubborn and opinionated? You used to be such a pushover!" I regularly present to large groups--am about to train about 30 teachers next week on working w/a particular group of students--and I now speak up probably a little too much in group meetings. People being disappointed in me still stings, but it's not such an all-present fear in my life. And when meeting new people I can still be nervous, but warm up quickly.
I can't say exactly what did it for me but disconnecting from my abusive family did help. From there it was a lot of forming positive relationships with people who still loved me even if I was silly or stupid or whatever I was afraid of them thinking. Therapy for my undiagnosed autism helped, and yes--I've been on metoprolol for many years, which was prescribed to lower my heart rate but did also help my overall anxiety. However, my social anxiety had improved considerably before going on it as well.
I don't know what the journey forward looks like for you, but I can say that it is possible and I hope you find the healing you need.
posted by brook horse at 12:03 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]