How to raise a friend's awareness of her son being at risk of grooming?
January 9, 2023 11:25 AM Subscribe
Over the holidays, I went on a group trip with old classmates. During the trip, I started getting creeped out by the behavior of one middle-aged male acquaintance "Ken" toward a tween boy "Robbie" who is the son of my other friends. I want to bring it up with Robbie's mom, and need advice on how to phrase it.
Ken has been hanging out with Robbie's family since Robbie was born. On this holiday trip, I saw Ken display a lot of physical affection towards Robbie: hugging / cuddling / tickling for minutes at a time, every day. Ken also disciplined Robbie for misbehavior (e.g. being messy), by taking away Robbie's privileges like screen time. I won't go into all the details, but Ken acted sort of like a "third parent" (an extremely huggy, affectionate one).
Ken usually started these behaviors when Robbie's parents were within earshot but in a different room. He didn't stop or hide his behavior if Robbie's parents walked into the room. Robbie's parents seemed completely accustomed to walking in on Ken being affectionate with Robbie.
Ken also talked about another tween boy "Andy" (son of his friends) that he spends time with. He messages Andy nearly daily, helps Andy with homework, and takes him on fun outings. He kept telling us about Andy, out of the blue. Ken said he "has to" take Andy on the outings because Andy is the only one who shares Ken's hobbies, and otherwise Ken would have no one to do those hobbies with (think along the lines of kid-friendly activities like go-karting or paintball). It sounded like he was preemptively justifying his behavior.
Ken does not have any kids of his own, nor does he seem to take steps towards dating or forming his own family. At first I thought he might just really love kids, but he doesn't show any interest in having a relationship or having his own kids.
I felt uneasy after the trip. There was no smoking-gun behavior that "proves" anything, just an accumulation of moments that gave me a strong intuition. I looked up a list of grooming behaviors, and some of Ken's behaviors are on that list.
Robbie's parents and I are all originally from a non-American culture where there's a great deal of emphasis about girls being vulnerable to predators, but almost no emphasis on boys being at risk. In the US, there's a high level of awareness from media such as Oprah, the Michael Jackson scandals, or the Catholic Church scandal.
I believe that if Robbie were a tween girl instead of boy, everyone would be freaked out watching Ken's behavior. The parents would not be okay walking in to continually find their middle-aged male friend hugging their young daughter for minutes. I think they just have a blind spot because their child is a boy rather than a girl, and they've known Ken since their child was born.
I want to bring this up with Robbie's mom. I'm worried about Robbie and I want him to be protected. I've hung out with Robbie's mom a dozen times, and we get along, though we don't know each other super well. (Ken is close friends with Robbie's dad, and their friendship is closer than my friendship with either of the parents.) Robbie's mom is a very caring person and a responsible mom. I hope that she can keep an eye on the situation, and perhaps prevent Robbie from being alone with Ken.
I'm afraid of conflict and drama, e.g. Robbie's mom saying I'm being paranoid or that I'm being awful to Ken. Or Robbie's mom and dad getting into a conflict over this. Or them telling Ken, and then Ken sending furious messages to me.
My question is: what do I say to Robbie's mom? Should I just say what I wrote above? Should I give her some statistics and raise her awareness about how boys are also at risk? Do I start by asking questions about whether she has any misgivings herself about Ken? Should I start by talking about Ken's behavior toward the other boy Andy instead of her own son? Thanks for your advice.
Ken has been hanging out with Robbie's family since Robbie was born. On this holiday trip, I saw Ken display a lot of physical affection towards Robbie: hugging / cuddling / tickling for minutes at a time, every day. Ken also disciplined Robbie for misbehavior (e.g. being messy), by taking away Robbie's privileges like screen time. I won't go into all the details, but Ken acted sort of like a "third parent" (an extremely huggy, affectionate one).
Ken usually started these behaviors when Robbie's parents were within earshot but in a different room. He didn't stop or hide his behavior if Robbie's parents walked into the room. Robbie's parents seemed completely accustomed to walking in on Ken being affectionate with Robbie.
Ken also talked about another tween boy "Andy" (son of his friends) that he spends time with. He messages Andy nearly daily, helps Andy with homework, and takes him on fun outings. He kept telling us about Andy, out of the blue. Ken said he "has to" take Andy on the outings because Andy is the only one who shares Ken's hobbies, and otherwise Ken would have no one to do those hobbies with (think along the lines of kid-friendly activities like go-karting or paintball). It sounded like he was preemptively justifying his behavior.
Ken does not have any kids of his own, nor does he seem to take steps towards dating or forming his own family. At first I thought he might just really love kids, but he doesn't show any interest in having a relationship or having his own kids.
I felt uneasy after the trip. There was no smoking-gun behavior that "proves" anything, just an accumulation of moments that gave me a strong intuition. I looked up a list of grooming behaviors, and some of Ken's behaviors are on that list.
Robbie's parents and I are all originally from a non-American culture where there's a great deal of emphasis about girls being vulnerable to predators, but almost no emphasis on boys being at risk. In the US, there's a high level of awareness from media such as Oprah, the Michael Jackson scandals, or the Catholic Church scandal.
I believe that if Robbie were a tween girl instead of boy, everyone would be freaked out watching Ken's behavior. The parents would not be okay walking in to continually find their middle-aged male friend hugging their young daughter for minutes. I think they just have a blind spot because their child is a boy rather than a girl, and they've known Ken since their child was born.
I want to bring this up with Robbie's mom. I'm worried about Robbie and I want him to be protected. I've hung out with Robbie's mom a dozen times, and we get along, though we don't know each other super well. (Ken is close friends with Robbie's dad, and their friendship is closer than my friendship with either of the parents.) Robbie's mom is a very caring person and a responsible mom. I hope that she can keep an eye on the situation, and perhaps prevent Robbie from being alone with Ken.
I'm afraid of conflict and drama, e.g. Robbie's mom saying I'm being paranoid or that I'm being awful to Ken. Or Robbie's mom and dad getting into a conflict over this. Or them telling Ken, and then Ken sending furious messages to me.
My question is: what do I say to Robbie's mom? Should I just say what I wrote above? Should I give her some statistics and raise her awareness about how boys are also at risk? Do I start by asking questions about whether she has any misgivings herself about Ken? Should I start by talking about Ken's behavior toward the other boy Andy instead of her own son? Thanks for your advice.
Response by poster: It's hard for me to articulate why this feels so different than the numerous other co-parenting and babysitting situations I've witnessed. It's the feeling when you're in a group situation and you slowly realize that person A has a romantic crush on person B. I've never previously had that feeling involving an adult with a minor.
In case it matters, another person who went on the trip also told me independently that they felt creeped out by Ken's behavior, and that they thought it was potential grooming.
I was going to only involve Robbie's mom because Robbie's dad is closer friends with Ken, and I figured it would be easier for Robbie's mom to approach him than for me to do so.
If the group consensus is that I should keep my mouth shut, that would be a relief. I have been really worried about Robbie since the trip.
posted by cheesecake at 11:41 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
In case it matters, another person who went on the trip also told me independently that they felt creeped out by Ken's behavior, and that they thought it was potential grooming.
I was going to only involve Robbie's mom because Robbie's dad is closer friends with Ken, and I figured it would be easier for Robbie's mom to approach him than for me to do so.
If the group consensus is that I should keep my mouth shut, that would be a relief. I have been really worried about Robbie since the trip.
posted by cheesecake at 11:41 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
(note, to me, the gender of the kid/adult here is not relevant - I would give you the same answer if Ken/Robbie were different genders).
posted by saeculorum at 11:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by saeculorum at 11:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Difficult question. If you are really super concerned about Robbie, IMO, the best thing you can do right now is make yourself available to him and let him know that he can confide in you if he needs to, that he can tell you anything and won't get into trouble. Say nothing about Ken or the "grooming" that might put Robbie on the spot and make him feel uncomfortable.
posted by Stuka at 11:55 AM on January 9, 2023
posted by Stuka at 11:55 AM on January 9, 2023
I don't have advice on exactly how to speak to Robbie's parent(s) but I want to just add a voice here that I really really think that you should. Even if it risks your friendships. Even if you risk getting furious messages. The risk that you raise concerns that are unfounded is far outweighed by the risk that you say nothing and Robbie spends the rest of his life wondering why no one spoke up. Please do this for Robbie.
posted by mcduff at 12:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
posted by mcduff at 12:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
Best answer: Ken has been hanging out with Robbie's family since Robbie was born.
I've hung out with Robbie's mom a dozen times, and we get along, though we don't know each other super well.
I am not sure you're going to have any status to share your observations.
I'm afraid of conflict and drama, e.g. Robbie's mom saying I'm being paranoid or that I'm being awful to Ken. Or Robbie's mom and dad getting into a conflict over this. Or them telling Ken, and then Ken sending furious messages to me.
I think #1 is likely, but I wouldn't characterize that as "conflict and drama." She may disagree with you - that's kind of what you have to expect walking into something like this.
#2 really isn't your business; if a couple gets into a conflict that's between them.
#3 definitely could happen too.
In summary, I don't think you're in a position where you are ready to do this or where you'll be listened to. I think the best case scenario is that you're already seeing Robbie's mom and dad, and you can just say "I had a weird feeling about Ken, I can't quite put my finger on it," and then you could see what her reaction was and then you could say a bit more.
Personally, I would in fact go that far -- one conversation, stating my feelings as feelings, not as fact -- but I have been a mandated reporter and I'm comfortable with the impact on me.
I have had this kind of conversation, even offering to take the kids for a summer, for more blatant behaviours on the part of a boyfriend...it eventually made an impact but it wasn't a one-time conversation. I was an in-law and had been involved since birth, the neighbours had called me because of the screaming coming from the house, and the impact was first months and then years down the road.
The kids involved did NOT know I spoke up, but it has helped them to put the pieces together later and know that I did. But it's probably a fantasy that Robbie will Know You Knew, unless you're prepared to call CAS or similar.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've hung out with Robbie's mom a dozen times, and we get along, though we don't know each other super well.
I am not sure you're going to have any status to share your observations.
I'm afraid of conflict and drama, e.g. Robbie's mom saying I'm being paranoid or that I'm being awful to Ken. Or Robbie's mom and dad getting into a conflict over this. Or them telling Ken, and then Ken sending furious messages to me.
I think #1 is likely, but I wouldn't characterize that as "conflict and drama." She may disagree with you - that's kind of what you have to expect walking into something like this.
#2 really isn't your business; if a couple gets into a conflict that's between them.
#3 definitely could happen too.
In summary, I don't think you're in a position where you are ready to do this or where you'll be listened to. I think the best case scenario is that you're already seeing Robbie's mom and dad, and you can just say "I had a weird feeling about Ken, I can't quite put my finger on it," and then you could see what her reaction was and then you could say a bit more.
Personally, I would in fact go that far -- one conversation, stating my feelings as feelings, not as fact -- but I have been a mandated reporter and I'm comfortable with the impact on me.
I have had this kind of conversation, even offering to take the kids for a summer, for more blatant behaviours on the part of a boyfriend...it eventually made an impact but it wasn't a one-time conversation. I was an in-law and had been involved since birth, the neighbours had called me because of the screaming coming from the house, and the impact was first months and then years down the road.
The kids involved did NOT know I spoke up, but it has helped them to put the pieces together later and know that I did. But it's probably a fantasy that Robbie will Know You Knew, unless you're prepared to call CAS or similar.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also...I would avoid the word "grooming." Because if Ken is a pedophile, he's no longer grooming. Grooming would be a much earlier stage.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:07 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 12:07 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do you have kids? This is extremely passive, but you could potentially bring this up in a circuitous manner - like, “my neighbor has been overly affectionate with my kid, I’m trying to figure out how to draw boundaries. I saw Ken being super affectionate with your kid. How have you guys drawn boundaries there? Obviously I don’t think my neighbor or Ken is malicious, but I know some of this behavior is risky, and I’m trying to figure out the right thing to do.”
posted by samthemander at 12:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 12:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Depending on how close you are to Robbie's mom, there's a much softer way to bring up the subject. If she's the type of friend you talk to casually on a regular (if not frequent) basis, you can simply say something like "so, Ken seems to really like Robbie, huh?", and then let her steer the conversation a little bit. From what you've written, it sounds like she'll probably brush it off, but how she does so will give you an idea of where to go next. If she laughs about it and says "oh yeah, Ken and Robbie are good friends", you can kind of give a raised-eyebrow "are you sure that's all?" A lot of times, when someone has a gut feeling that goes against what they've been culturally conditioned to accept, the mere knowledge that someone else has a similar gut feeling is enough to open up more. The "I'm glad you said that, I thought it was just me" situation.
But don't start by bringing up statistics. That's how you end up with Robbie's mom being paranoid and Ken sending you furious messages.
I will say that if Ken has been a close friend of the family since Robbie was born, it might not seem all that unusual that he would act as a third parent, especially if his actual parents aren't particularly good at things like discipline. I (a white American) had a childless aunt to whom I was close who often helped out my parents.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:12 PM on January 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
But don't start by bringing up statistics. That's how you end up with Robbie's mom being paranoid and Ken sending you furious messages.
I will say that if Ken has been a close friend of the family since Robbie was born, it might not seem all that unusual that he would act as a third parent, especially if his actual parents aren't particularly good at things like discipline. I (a white American) had a childless aunt to whom I was close who often helped out my parents.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:12 PM on January 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think you should say something, but along the lines of an open question to the parent and not something where you feel like you need to bring proof that something is wrong or to make her aware of statistics. Something like, "How is Robbie doing? How does he feel about spending so much time with Ken? I know when I was that age I didn't want to spend so much time with adults - I really had to work on making friends with classmates. Does Robbie still like being tickled and hugged so much, or is he growing out of it and needing more privacy these days?"
In this conversation, I would maybe share any experiences you remember as a child - for me, I am very sensitive to almost all physical touch, and I never knew why I was so stressed by most physical contact growing up. I could use that as an entry into the conversation.
If something bad is going on, this opens a door that you are available to talk about it. If nothing bad is going on, this also brings up the future, where Robbie grows up and has less interest in Ken, something that is going to happen inevitably.
posted by lizard music at 12:19 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
In this conversation, I would maybe share any experiences you remember as a child - for me, I am very sensitive to almost all physical touch, and I never knew why I was so stressed by most physical contact growing up. I could use that as an entry into the conversation.
If something bad is going on, this opens a door that you are available to talk about it. If nothing bad is going on, this also brings up the future, where Robbie grows up and has less interest in Ken, something that is going to happen inevitably.
posted by lizard music at 12:19 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I agree with those saying that you don't have a lot to go on here (both in terms of 'evidence' or new information to tell them or clout since you're not that close to the parents). I think it would be fine, the next time you see them, to ask from fairly neutral questions about Ken - like, "So, it seems like Ken is almost like a third parent - does that ever get confusing?"
But, I think it's worth asking yourself - if Ken was biologically related to Robbie, would you still think his behavior was suspicious? My bias here is that I grew up with adults who, though not related to me, changed my diapers and remained important to me throughout my life - so I don't think intimacy with a child you've known from birth is necessarily 'off' even if it certainly can be.
posted by coffeecat at 12:24 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
But, I think it's worth asking yourself - if Ken was biologically related to Robbie, would you still think his behavior was suspicious? My bias here is that I grew up with adults who, though not related to me, changed my diapers and remained important to me throughout my life - so I don't think intimacy with a child you've known from birth is necessarily 'off' even if it certainly can be.
posted by coffeecat at 12:24 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster:
I should not have said "third parent" (I was only thinking of the discipline angle). I should have said "Ken was acting like he was in the honeymoon phase, looking for excuses to touch Robbie".
It's like when people start to date, and they're looking for excuses to touch. "Are you ticklish? What about here? What about here?" or "Do you know what this muscle is called? Let me feel how buff you are" or "Do you have six-pack abs? Let me count them" or "Let me show you this swimming stroke, I'll help you move your leg", etc, multiple times every day.
Thank you for the wording suggestions so far. I appreciate the soft ways to bring it up. Additional advice is very welcome!
posted by cheesecake at 12:36 PM on January 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
if Ken was biologically related to Robbie, would you still think his behavior was suspicious?Yes, I would.
I should not have said "third parent" (I was only thinking of the discipline angle). I should have said "Ken was acting like he was in the honeymoon phase, looking for excuses to touch Robbie".
It's like when people start to date, and they're looking for excuses to touch. "Are you ticklish? What about here? What about here?" or "Do you know what this muscle is called? Let me feel how buff you are" or "Do you have six-pack abs? Let me count them" or "Let me show you this swimming stroke, I'll help you move your leg", etc, multiple times every day.
Thank you for the wording suggestions so far. I appreciate the soft ways to bring it up. Additional advice is very welcome!
posted by cheesecake at 12:36 PM on January 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
Best answer: Some people here aren't actually answering your question, they are debating the premise of the question itself, which, I thought, was against MF's AskMe rules?
I think you should follow your instincts here, since you have a strong gut feeling and have seen evidence of grooming. Some people here posted that you don't have evidence to warrant saying anything, but what, do they expect pedophiles to rape or molest a child right in front of adults? The parents here have been groomed by Ken, too. That's how these types of people work.
In terms of sharing your thoughts with your friend, I think you should just tell them pretty much what you wrote here, but couch it first by setting up expectations before launching in. Something like, "It was so great to see you on the recent trip Marissa, I would love to stay in touch. I had such a wonderful time. However, I had some small nagging thoughts and I wanted to discuss those with you, and I realize this is a sensitive subject. It's regarding Ken, and some of his behaviors which left me feeling quite uneasy. Perhaps none of this warrants suspicion, but on the offchance that something was up, I wanted to discuss it with you..." And then go on with your list of things that you write about above. Give your friend time to respond. Let her know you're not judging her, her choice of friends, how she parents. Mainly, focus on describing your emotions and Ken's behavior, the observable evidence. Tell her you care about her, Robbie, Andy, etc and that you may be off base but that you wouldn't feel right in saying nothing.
At worst, you'll lose a friend, and friends are lost all the time. But you'd know that you'd followed your heart, and that you were trying to do the right thing. At best, you may end up protecting children, perhaps many children, whose caregivers and parents did not protect them appropriately, for whatever reason, until you entered the picture. I think you're doing the right thing. I am a CSA survivor and it is crazy to me that the adults around me didn't act to intervene on the very clear grooming I was subjected to. The person who abused me also groomed my parents, although they were so detached that they were less involved than it sounds like your friend is. Pedophiles aren't like some kind of rare mythical beast that only live in the bushes of school playgrounds. They are actually pretty common and it is not unlikely that this Ken person may be one.
posted by erattacorrige at 12:41 PM on January 9, 2023 [75 favorites]
I think you should follow your instincts here, since you have a strong gut feeling and have seen evidence of grooming. Some people here posted that you don't have evidence to warrant saying anything, but what, do they expect pedophiles to rape or molest a child right in front of adults? The parents here have been groomed by Ken, too. That's how these types of people work.
In terms of sharing your thoughts with your friend, I think you should just tell them pretty much what you wrote here, but couch it first by setting up expectations before launching in. Something like, "It was so great to see you on the recent trip Marissa, I would love to stay in touch. I had such a wonderful time. However, I had some small nagging thoughts and I wanted to discuss those with you, and I realize this is a sensitive subject. It's regarding Ken, and some of his behaviors which left me feeling quite uneasy. Perhaps none of this warrants suspicion, but on the offchance that something was up, I wanted to discuss it with you..." And then go on with your list of things that you write about above. Give your friend time to respond. Let her know you're not judging her, her choice of friends, how she parents. Mainly, focus on describing your emotions and Ken's behavior, the observable evidence. Tell her you care about her, Robbie, Andy, etc and that you may be off base but that you wouldn't feel right in saying nothing.
At worst, you'll lose a friend, and friends are lost all the time. But you'd know that you'd followed your heart, and that you were trying to do the right thing. At best, you may end up protecting children, perhaps many children, whose caregivers and parents did not protect them appropriately, for whatever reason, until you entered the picture. I think you're doing the right thing. I am a CSA survivor and it is crazy to me that the adults around me didn't act to intervene on the very clear grooming I was subjected to. The person who abused me also groomed my parents, although they were so detached that they were less involved than it sounds like your friend is. Pedophiles aren't like some kind of rare mythical beast that only live in the bushes of school playgrounds. They are actually pretty common and it is not unlikely that this Ken person may be one.
posted by erattacorrige at 12:41 PM on January 9, 2023 [75 favorites]
I would ABSOLUTELY say something to Robbie's parents. I think your instincts are completely spot on that something weird is happening and Ken is interested in or already has abused Robbie. I would take the same approach as erattacorrige suggests.
posted by randomquestion at 12:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by randomquestion at 12:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [29 favorites]
It sounds like you feel that this is a concern - and you were there so you need to trust your instincts on that. None of us can give you better advice on a dynamic that you saw.
So given that you feel there is a concern then mentioning something to the mother is a good way to start.
I think something like 'Ken really seems to like Robbie' is a good opening. If she shuts it down then saying anything further might be counter productive, but if she's prepared to listen then you could ask her how she thinks Robbie feels about the dynamic, about being touched so much.
If he did seem uncomfortable that could be a better framing - a focus on Robbie's comfort and body autonomy rather than Ken's behaviour.
posted by Laura_J at 12:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
So given that you feel there is a concern then mentioning something to the mother is a good way to start.
I think something like 'Ken really seems to like Robbie' is a good opening. If she shuts it down then saying anything further might be counter productive, but if she's prepared to listen then you could ask her how she thinks Robbie feels about the dynamic, about being touched so much.
If he did seem uncomfortable that could be a better framing - a focus on Robbie's comfort and body autonomy rather than Ken's behaviour.
posted by Laura_J at 12:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am appalled at everyone who is telling you to not say anything. Sexual abuse of boys is very common and under-reported for all sorts of deeply problematic cultural reasons. Thank you for wanting to intervene on this child's behalf.
I think if possible this should be an in-person conversation. Would the other friend who was also creeped out be able to join and be a part of that conversation? If so, I would suggest that.
posted by virve at 1:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [31 favorites]
I think if possible this should be an in-person conversation. Would the other friend who was also creeped out be able to join and be a part of that conversation? If so, I would suggest that.
posted by virve at 1:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [31 favorites]
As the mother of a tween boy I WOULD ABSOLUTELY WANT TO KNOW your concerns and I would want you to share them with Andy's mother as well.
To do that, I agree with Laura J's suggestion and talk with Robbie's mom: I think something like 'Ken really seems to like Robbie' is a good opening. If she shuts it down then saying anything further might be counter productive, but if she's prepared to listen then you could ask her how she thinks Robbie feels about the dynamic, about being touched so much.
If she shuts you down, then I would go directly to Robbie and kind of try to see how he feels about Ken. He could be waiting for another adult to ask him so that he doesn't have to try to find someone to trust to tell about the situation - especially if his parents are somewhat blind to what is going on.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 1:21 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
To do that, I agree with Laura J's suggestion and talk with Robbie's mom: I think something like 'Ken really seems to like Robbie' is a good opening. If she shuts it down then saying anything further might be counter productive, but if she's prepared to listen then you could ask her how she thinks Robbie feels about the dynamic, about being touched so much.
If she shuts you down, then I would go directly to Robbie and kind of try to see how he feels about Ken. He could be waiting for another adult to ask him so that he doesn't have to try to find someone to trust to tell about the situation - especially if his parents are somewhat blind to what is going on.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 1:21 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I completely support your discomfort here and think it’s an important thing to bring up. I’ve worked in gild welfare for over 30 years-and much of what we’ve learned about sex offenders js about how they groom adults in order to get access to children. I think it’s important to pay attention to your feelings about this. In general-and yes, I know there’s many many exceptions to this rule-I pay attention to adults to focus a lot of their contact to specific children that seems above and belong. Adults who babysit for free. Adults who find reasons to hang with the kids-particularly certain kids-overwhelmingly vs hanging with their adult friends. Adults who find reasons to touch and be in close proximity to children.
It reminds me about when I received some training re keeping yourself safe as a woman-and how women have been socialized often to not make a fuss. The trainer discussed firmly saying something to, for
Instance, the guy standing too close and making you uncomfortable at night at the bus station-says if he’s just clueless and doesn’t mean you harm, well, he might be embarassed but you’ll probably be safer.
So, similarly, it’s always fine to set boundaries if someone is pushing boundaries with a child you love. If they truly care about their relationship with the child and with you, they will accept these boundaries graciously. If they truly have no interest in spending time with a child if that time can’t be alone or if they aren’t allowed to touch-well, you’ve learned a lot from that response.
The first column of this pamphlet is excellent and was gathered from sex offenders disclosing how they obtained access to victims: https://childrenssafeharbor.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Informational-Who-are-Child-Molesters.pdf
posted by purenitrous at 1:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
It reminds me about when I received some training re keeping yourself safe as a woman-and how women have been socialized often to not make a fuss. The trainer discussed firmly saying something to, for
Instance, the guy standing too close and making you uncomfortable at night at the bus station-says if he’s just clueless and doesn’t mean you harm, well, he might be embarassed but you’ll probably be safer.
So, similarly, it’s always fine to set boundaries if someone is pushing boundaries with a child you love. If they truly care about their relationship with the child and with you, they will accept these boundaries graciously. If they truly have no interest in spending time with a child if that time can’t be alone or if they aren’t allowed to touch-well, you’ve learned a lot from that response.
The first column of this pamphlet is excellent and was gathered from sex offenders disclosing how they obtained access to victims: https://childrenssafeharbor.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Informational-Who-are-Child-Molesters.pdf
posted by purenitrous at 1:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I am a retired teacher. I know of a number of abuse situations that have happened both in schools and out . The behavior you describe is highly inappropriate. The tickling is abusive but the behavior around Andy is a dead giveaway. Red flag red flag red flag. Seriously.
I have seen far too many situations become irretrievably horrific because people are afraid of rocking the boat by saying anything. If I were in the same situation as you I would say something to Ken as well as to the parents. (As a teacher I was a mandated reporter and would have to file a report rather than speaking to anyone first, but as a member of the child’s community you do not have that constraint.) Sometimes you just have to be the a**hole. You may lose the friendship. That is going to have to be okay because children are not believed in these situations and they don’t dare say anything.
posted by Peach at 1:51 PM on January 9, 2023 [29 favorites]
I have seen far too many situations become irretrievably horrific because people are afraid of rocking the boat by saying anything. If I were in the same situation as you I would say something to Ken as well as to the parents. (As a teacher I was a mandated reporter and would have to file a report rather than speaking to anyone first, but as a member of the child’s community you do not have that constraint.) Sometimes you just have to be the a**hole. You may lose the friendship. That is going to have to be okay because children are not believed in these situations and they don’t dare say anything.
posted by Peach at 1:51 PM on January 9, 2023 [29 favorites]
Best answer: The parents have known this guy since the kid was born? It is not unusual for pedophiles to position themselves around infants in order to begin the abuse or grooming process early. This is actually what a lot of cult leaders do too. This is textbook homophobia But I don't think it is, because small boys and adult men are never appropriate sexual partners, and so it cannot be called homophobia, because gay relationships can only occur between consenting adults, not boy children and men adults. Some male pedophiles prefer boys, but that is not gay, that is pedophilia. It is actually homophobic to equate having a sexual interest in boys as an adult with being gay (which is one reason why Jeffrey Daumer was able to murder Konerak Sinthasomphone , a 14 year old boy that the police witnessed with Daumer under suspicious circumstances). Showing a reasonable amount of affection for children who are not your own (or even who are your own) is not what this person is describing here. I am close with small children, and I hug them, hold their hand if we are crossing the street or about to be seperated by a crowd, but I don't "message them daily", I don't wrestle with them, I don't take them on outings because "they are the only ones who share my hobbies" (wtf??? This is EXACTLY what the pedophile who sexually abused me did, they took me to art museums because "nobody else understands me and you do", since I had a childlike curiosity and openness to art, but was not an appropriate individual to foist all of this person's social engagements and hobby-like interests upon).
If the parents have been groomed by this person, they will not realize it, of course, and so any "assuaging of concerns" would be under the auspices of this mindset.
posted by erattacorrige at 2:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [37 favorites]
If the parents have been groomed by this person, they will not realize it, of course, and so any "assuaging of concerns" would be under the auspices of this mindset.
posted by erattacorrige at 2:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [37 favorites]
tickling for minutes at a time
I agree with Peach that this is way out of the ordinary.
I don’t believe I’ve met a tween who wouldn’t be embarrassed and feel invaded at being tickled by an adult, related or not.
That Ken has crossed this line would make me question whether there was any line he wouldn’t cross.
I’d take a very direct and aboveboard approach with Robbie’s mom: 'the way Ken physically handled Robbie made me very uneasy. Particularly the tickling. Have you and [husband] talked about this?'
posted by jamjam at 2:22 PM on January 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
I agree with Peach that this is way out of the ordinary.
I don’t believe I’ve met a tween who wouldn’t be embarrassed and feel invaded at being tickled by an adult, related or not.
That Ken has crossed this line would make me question whether there was any line he wouldn’t cross.
I’d take a very direct and aboveboard approach with Robbie’s mom: 'the way Ken physically handled Robbie made me very uneasy. Particularly the tickling. Have you and [husband] talked about this?'
posted by jamjam at 2:22 PM on January 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
I think you can find a way to broach the topic without flat-out accusing Ken, following some of the suggestions upthread. Try to balance the possibility that you could be wrong with the strong feeling that you're right, and leave that possibility open in your mind. I suppose if you say anything at all you run the risk of offending your friends and losing the friendship, but that seems to me a risk worth taking. The stakes are high if you're right. I'm in agreement with others on this thread that this behavior does not seem ordinary.
posted by swheatie at 2:35 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by swheatie at 2:35 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Ken's behavior is absolutely inappropriate: there are multiple red flags but the biggest is the tickling for me and the fact you feel creeped out. I rarely find people creepy so, when I do, it's usually for a good reason. It sounds like you are similar. The part about Ken not wanting his own kids is a red herring: plenty of people are great mentors and honorary uncles or aunties in appropriate ways. This is not. I'm worried about Robbie and I'm worried about Andy.
I know you're afraid of drama but you should and must speak up. I'd meet with the parents privately and express your concerns. We can help you create a list if needed so it's all facts and as unemotional as possible. I'd also try to get in touch with Andy's family as I feel Andy may be at even greater risk. This may end your friendship and so be it. It would not be your fault.
It's a bit different but I had a friend who was putting her own needs ahead of her tween child's. I don't know if the daughter was being sexually abused by her stepdad but I knew the drama between the mom and stepdad was bad. I thought being quiet was the right thing to do as my (adult) friend had it hard enough. I was wrong: the daughter killed herself at age 13 and the reasons are not totally clear but that shitty dynamic definitely didn't help. When the mother started doing the same shit with the younger half-sister a few years later, I had to speak up. It was not CPS stuff but rather selfish drama, etc. The friend ended her relationship with me, and I'm OK with that. I cannot sit around watching adults letting children suffer. Maybe it's nothing here but I highly doubt that; something is off. Speaking up is always worth it: our discomfort as adults is not equal to the lifelong suffering of abused children. If it's not a bad situation as feared, then at least people are aware. I'd want to know if someone thought this: even if I was annoyed, I'd be glad someone was looking out for my child. If anyone here thinks I'm overreacting, that's fine but I've dealt with this from various angles and feel confident that doing something is important.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I know you're afraid of drama but you should and must speak up. I'd meet with the parents privately and express your concerns. We can help you create a list if needed so it's all facts and as unemotional as possible. I'd also try to get in touch with Andy's family as I feel Andy may be at even greater risk. This may end your friendship and so be it. It would not be your fault.
It's a bit different but I had a friend who was putting her own needs ahead of her tween child's. I don't know if the daughter was being sexually abused by her stepdad but I knew the drama between the mom and stepdad was bad. I thought being quiet was the right thing to do as my (adult) friend had it hard enough. I was wrong: the daughter killed herself at age 13 and the reasons are not totally clear but that shitty dynamic definitely didn't help. When the mother started doing the same shit with the younger half-sister a few years later, I had to speak up. It was not CPS stuff but rather selfish drama, etc. The friend ended her relationship with me, and I'm OK with that. I cannot sit around watching adults letting children suffer. Maybe it's nothing here but I highly doubt that; something is off. Speaking up is always worth it: our discomfort as adults is not equal to the lifelong suffering of abused children. If it's not a bad situation as feared, then at least people are aware. I'd want to know if someone thought this: even if I was annoyed, I'd be glad someone was looking out for my child. If anyone here thinks I'm overreacting, that's fine but I've dealt with this from various angles and feel confident that doing something is important.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I wonder if a call with the RAINN hotline might help you pregame this conversation.
I'm a survivor of CSA and feel strongly that you should have this conversation. I'm queer and childfree and treasure my relationships with my siblings'/friends' kids, and from where I'm standing Ken's behaviors are unacceptable and raise huge red flags.
Know that no matter how calm and kind and factual you are, the parents might be in denial and not pursue this right away. But maybe the next time someone witnesses this behavior, or Ken slips up and crosses a line when they're in the room, alarm bells will go off and they'll start asking questions. You speaking up now is impactful no matter what happens.
posted by toastedcheese at 2:58 PM on January 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm a survivor of CSA and feel strongly that you should have this conversation. I'm queer and childfree and treasure my relationships with my siblings'/friends' kids, and from where I'm standing Ken's behaviors are unacceptable and raise huge red flags.
Know that no matter how calm and kind and factual you are, the parents might be in denial and not pursue this right away. But maybe the next time someone witnesses this behavior, or Ken slips up and crosses a line when they're in the room, alarm bells will go off and they'll start asking questions. You speaking up now is impactful no matter what happens.
posted by toastedcheese at 2:58 PM on January 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
erratacorrige has excellent advice for how to frame this. Difficult as it may be, if you are seeing this kind of behavior between adults and children, you need to bring it up. The parents may react poorly, ignore you, or even end the friendship, it's true. On the other hand, it may be that they've noticed little things that are off, themselves, and your corroboration could be what makes the pieces fall into place. Even if they react badly or brush it off right now, if they get a ping or hinky feeling later on, they'll remember what you said, and it may lead them to act.
Growing up, I had multiple single/childless men and women in my life (neighbors, religious community, family friends). They were lovely influences on me. None of them behaved this way. My trusted adults enjoyed childcare, let me tag along with their hobbies, and took me on occasional fun outings. There's a difference between that, and someone who actively pursues a hobby only with the companionship of the child, messages the child constantly, and never invites others to join in. It's possible Ken is just clueless or an odd duck, sure. But this is also classic grooming behavior.
As for Robbie, I again think you're right to be concerned. There's nothing wrong with being a "third parent," and cuddling with one's third parent/honorary uncle/whatever you want to call it is normal, or should be. But if Robbie rarely or never initiates the affection, if it's always the adult that's approaching the child, that kind of imbalance is worrying. And frequent tickling certainly sends up flags. Most parents are not tickling their tweenage children on a regular basis--and more importantly, most tweenage children wouldn't really appreciate or tolerate that. That Robbie does would suggest there is some abnormal boundary crossing here. Doing this sort of thing in public is a common way to groom other ADULTS in the room, and establish close physical contact as normal. It can be a devious way of pre-planning excuses, as in, "Oh, that was just a tickle attack you walked in on, nothing to worry about."
You may have to deal with social friction, but if Ken is grooming Andy and Robbie, they are at risk for far worse than discomfort. You are right to speak up, awkward as it is, and I wish you the best of luck in addressing this.
posted by desert outpost at 3:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Growing up, I had multiple single/childless men and women in my life (neighbors, religious community, family friends). They were lovely influences on me. None of them behaved this way. My trusted adults enjoyed childcare, let me tag along with their hobbies, and took me on occasional fun outings. There's a difference between that, and someone who actively pursues a hobby only with the companionship of the child, messages the child constantly, and never invites others to join in. It's possible Ken is just clueless or an odd duck, sure. But this is also classic grooming behavior.
As for Robbie, I again think you're right to be concerned. There's nothing wrong with being a "third parent," and cuddling with one's third parent/honorary uncle/whatever you want to call it is normal, or should be. But if Robbie rarely or never initiates the affection, if it's always the adult that's approaching the child, that kind of imbalance is worrying. And frequent tickling certainly sends up flags. Most parents are not tickling their tweenage children on a regular basis--and more importantly, most tweenage children wouldn't really appreciate or tolerate that. That Robbie does would suggest there is some abnormal boundary crossing here. Doing this sort of thing in public is a common way to groom other ADULTS in the room, and establish close physical contact as normal. It can be a devious way of pre-planning excuses, as in, "Oh, that was just a tickle attack you walked in on, nothing to worry about."
You may have to deal with social friction, but if Ken is grooming Andy and Robbie, they are at risk for far worse than discomfort. You are right to speak up, awkward as it is, and I wish you the best of luck in addressing this.
posted by desert outpost at 3:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
In discussing this either with a group like RAINN or the parents, I would encourage you to leave out the stuff that makes it sound like you have no idea how anyone outside a bog-standard current heterocentric family functions: i.e., that Ken appears to have some disciplinary authority, that he doesn't have kids of his own. I bet if you had made this post and just left those points out, the consensus would be (even) stronger on the "talk to someone" side. That you included them made me question your judgment in this area, and I don't think I'm the only one here. However, it is your judgment, and you were there, and so I endorse a script like Laura_J's. Sometimes all you can do is open up the chance for someone else to reach a conclusion that otherwise is outside of the normal accepted range of possibilities. And then keep your eyes open.
posted by praemunire at 3:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:39 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think you & the other person who had the same reaction speak with the mom or mom & dad, and you definitely mention Ken's many comments about Andy were disturbing, too.
You want to highlight a possible pattern of behavior noticed by more than one person on that trip.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
You want to highlight a possible pattern of behavior noticed by more than one person on that trip.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I feel like people are missing your update above, OP.....
posted by tristeza at 3:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 3:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would raise it in conversation, rather than presenting it as a specific theory. I would create a situation to see the mom ("It was so great to see you guys! We should hang out more. Let's have coffee soon.").
I would start the conversation with (as above), "So Ken seems really into Robbie." Likely response would be something like, "Yeah, they're really close." Then I'd say, "He actually gave me a pretty weird vibe. He was super physical with Robbie." If Robbie seemed uncomfortable at all, add that; it's key. Then, "Do they spend a lot of time alone together?"
Essentially, you don't know if there is anything going on. You can't convince her something is happening, because you don't know. He really could be a socially awkward guy who is not making the kid uncomfortable. Your goal is to put the idea in her head, so if there's anything else to see, she can use her much more thorough information about their relationship to spot it.
She's likely to have one of two reactions here--either defensive irritation/anger ("he's practically part of the family, what kind of thing is that to imply?") or obliviousness (cheerful discussion of their closeness). In the first case, you've kind of accomplished your goal. So in the first case, I'd probably respond with "Hey, I'm sorry that's upsetting. I of course don't know what's going on. I only know that I saw Ken acting in ways that I know are warning signs for adults who can victimize children. That doesn't mean it's happening, just that some of those things look like that. You see them together more often, and you'll be able to tell better than I will."
If she's oblivious, you will have to plant the idea, which is trickier. If she goes with "Oh, Ken is harmless, he's just a big kid," you might have to bring up, "yeah, it sounds like he's pretty close with several young boys. Some of the ways he behaves really do look like classic signs of adults who can end up victimizing children. I'm not saying he is, and you know him better than I do. I just wanted to make sure you know the warning signs."
Maybe this is softer than it should be, but I think with just a weird vibe to go on, that's the level of presentation I would go with. And I'd assume that this might end up with me and the mom being less close in the future. You're either the bearer of bad news or saying something very uncomfortable about a close family friend. Either way, it might cost you the friendship. I think you should do it, but I think you should be prepared for that.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would start the conversation with (as above), "So Ken seems really into Robbie." Likely response would be something like, "Yeah, they're really close." Then I'd say, "He actually gave me a pretty weird vibe. He was super physical with Robbie." If Robbie seemed uncomfortable at all, add that; it's key. Then, "Do they spend a lot of time alone together?"
Essentially, you don't know if there is anything going on. You can't convince her something is happening, because you don't know. He really could be a socially awkward guy who is not making the kid uncomfortable. Your goal is to put the idea in her head, so if there's anything else to see, she can use her much more thorough information about their relationship to spot it.
She's likely to have one of two reactions here--either defensive irritation/anger ("he's practically part of the family, what kind of thing is that to imply?") or obliviousness (cheerful discussion of their closeness). In the first case, you've kind of accomplished your goal. So in the first case, I'd probably respond with "Hey, I'm sorry that's upsetting. I of course don't know what's going on. I only know that I saw Ken acting in ways that I know are warning signs for adults who can victimize children. That doesn't mean it's happening, just that some of those things look like that. You see them together more often, and you'll be able to tell better than I will."
If she's oblivious, you will have to plant the idea, which is trickier. If she goes with "Oh, Ken is harmless, he's just a big kid," you might have to bring up, "yeah, it sounds like he's pretty close with several young boys. Some of the ways he behaves really do look like classic signs of adults who can end up victimizing children. I'm not saying he is, and you know him better than I do. I just wanted to make sure you know the warning signs."
Maybe this is softer than it should be, but I think with just a weird vibe to go on, that's the level of presentation I would go with. And I'd assume that this might end up with me and the mom being less close in the future. You're either the bearer of bad news or saying something very uncomfortable about a close family friend. Either way, it might cost you the friendship. I think you should do it, but I think you should be prepared for that.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Your instinct to talk to Robbie's mom was spot-on and you should follow it. Saying anything will be better than saying nothing. Don't let your fears of doing this wrong & causing drama and conflict get in the way of telling her as directly as your shared culture allows that you are concerned Ken is grooming Robbie for sexual abuse.
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 4:30 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 4:30 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks to the commenters who shared their own experience of CSA. I imagine that wasn't easy to write about, and I'm grateful that you did that in order to give advice.
Also thanks to the comments from the teacher, child welfare worker, and other people who have dealt with witnessing abuse.
You (the above groups) are the experts I was hoping to hear from. Based on your advice, I'm planning to be direct with Robbie's mom about Ken's actions and my responses. I'm going to use @erattacorrige's straightforward approach instead of the soft approach. My other friend (who felt concerned) is willing to join the conversation, or to have me name them and share their concerns with Robbie's mom.
Re @praemunire: Exerting disciplinary authority is literally an item on the list of grooming behaviors. It's how pedophiles train the kids into obedience. Including that information is not a valid reason for you to call my judgement into question. Anyway, it reminded me that most people aren't familiar with the list, and I need to give that context to Robbie's mom.
As to the multiple accusations of homophobia and only understanding hetero relationships, I did not include the irrelevant detail that I tried to invite my gay friend to this very trip. Or that I've attended a gay wedding and gay clubs with my gay friends. No, I am not uncomfortable seeing men hug. While we're on the topic of avoiding bigotry, my post did not contain homophobia but did mention that I'm originally from a non-American culture. Let's all please make sure we're not mentally associating non-American cultures (and non-white people) with homophobia.
Thanks again to the experts who replied. I appreciate it.
posted by cheesecake at 5:30 PM on January 9, 2023 [36 favorites]
Also thanks to the comments from the teacher, child welfare worker, and other people who have dealt with witnessing abuse.
You (the above groups) are the experts I was hoping to hear from. Based on your advice, I'm planning to be direct with Robbie's mom about Ken's actions and my responses. I'm going to use @erattacorrige's straightforward approach instead of the soft approach. My other friend (who felt concerned) is willing to join the conversation, or to have me name them and share their concerns with Robbie's mom.
Re @praemunire: Exerting disciplinary authority is literally an item on the list of grooming behaviors. It's how pedophiles train the kids into obedience. Including that information is not a valid reason for you to call my judgement into question. Anyway, it reminded me that most people aren't familiar with the list, and I need to give that context to Robbie's mom.
As to the multiple accusations of homophobia and only understanding hetero relationships, I did not include the irrelevant detail that I tried to invite my gay friend to this very trip. Or that I've attended a gay wedding and gay clubs with my gay friends. No, I am not uncomfortable seeing men hug. While we're on the topic of avoiding bigotry, my post did not contain homophobia but did mention that I'm originally from a non-American culture. Let's all please make sure we're not mentally associating non-American cultures (and non-white people) with homophobia.
Thanks again to the experts who replied. I appreciate it.
posted by cheesecake at 5:30 PM on January 9, 2023 [36 favorites]
Thanks for the update and your openness to bring this up with Robbie's mom. I'm so glad that your other friend is willing to come along too.
I'm sorry people were accusing you of homophobia: I did not get ANY vibes of it from any of your messages and I am queer, a teacher, and a survivor of CSA. You're right that, while it's cool that Metafilter seeks to be a safe and inclusive place, there's often a lack of patience or understanding for people who have the best intentions but don't use the default vernacular of highly educated white liberal North American spaces.
You're doing the right thing, and I hope it goes ok.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:41 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry people were accusing you of homophobia: I did not get ANY vibes of it from any of your messages and I am queer, a teacher, and a survivor of CSA. You're right that, while it's cool that Metafilter seeks to be a safe and inclusive place, there's often a lack of patience or understanding for people who have the best intentions but don't use the default vernacular of highly educated white liberal North American spaces.
You're doing the right thing, and I hope it goes ok.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:41 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Many years ago, I was in a situation similar to yours, in that I witnessed an older man behaving in a comparable way with a young boy (in this case his nephew, who was younger than the child you describe), to the point that it made me uncomfortable.
I was not close to the parents (the mom was the sister of a friend), and was very nervous about how to approach them, so I spoke with a social worker friend, who agreed that I should say something, and helped me work on something that would not be too confrontational. I made a point of being around the sister as soon as I could, and said, as casually as I could, "I noticed how physical A was with B, and I'm surprised he's not uncomfortable with that. My nephews would be very uncomfortable being touched that way." That led to a discussion of the specifics and how her brother was "just like that," etc.. It was pleasant enough but I was a little embarrassed, feeling like I had over-reacted.
I let it go, thinking that maybe their family dynamic was just different from mine, but a couple of weeks later I learned that the mom had been inspired to have "the talk" with her son, along the lines of "if anyone ever touches you that way, no matter who they are etc." A few weeks after that the uncle tried something unequivocal and the kid was prepared, resisted, and disclosed immediately to the parents. The uncle was charged and the family thanked me.
Tl;dr: take the excellent advice from the commenters above, (and don't let some of AskMe's ritual dumping on the asker deter you from what you know is right) . At worst, you might be embarrassed, but you could also really help a child. I will never regret taking that risk.
posted by rpfields at 7:07 PM on January 9, 2023 [54 favorites]
I was not close to the parents (the mom was the sister of a friend), and was very nervous about how to approach them, so I spoke with a social worker friend, who agreed that I should say something, and helped me work on something that would not be too confrontational. I made a point of being around the sister as soon as I could, and said, as casually as I could, "I noticed how physical A was with B, and I'm surprised he's not uncomfortable with that. My nephews would be very uncomfortable being touched that way." That led to a discussion of the specifics and how her brother was "just like that," etc.. It was pleasant enough but I was a little embarrassed, feeling like I had over-reacted.
I let it go, thinking that maybe their family dynamic was just different from mine, but a couple of weeks later I learned that the mom had been inspired to have "the talk" with her son, along the lines of "if anyone ever touches you that way, no matter who they are etc." A few weeks after that the uncle tried something unequivocal and the kid was prepared, resisted, and disclosed immediately to the parents. The uncle was charged and the family thanked me.
Tl;dr: take the excellent advice from the commenters above, (and don't let some of AskMe's ritual dumping on the asker deter you from what you know is right) . At worst, you might be embarrassed, but you could also really help a child. I will never regret taking that risk.
posted by rpfields at 7:07 PM on January 9, 2023 [54 favorites]
Good for you for posting about it here. I have chosen a few best answers. You are right in your insticts. I can't add anymore to those.
posted by amfgf at 7:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by amfgf at 7:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
From an anonymous commenter:
If a friend told me they felt uncomfortable about the way an adult was interacting with my child, this would absolutely get my attention in an appreciated way.posted by travelingthyme at 8:28 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does Robbie’s family support kids (and Robbie specifically) saying 'no' to things? In other situations, is it ok for Robbie to have wants or dislikes and to voice them, and for the adults to respect those wants?
I ask because I was raised in a culture where I was disciplined for saying ‘no’, and where letting people touch me without my permission was “nice” or “polite” — relatives and strangers of both genders and all ages, male teachers, priests (who blithely told my parents they wanted to kiss me), and others in positions of authority all touched me despite my unwillingness and my complaints to my parents. My parents, who loved me and were somewhat liberal, were nonetheless woven into a social fabric where the role of children was to be compliant. Robbie's parents may be part of a similar set of social norms. On one hand, their culture may simply include more non-sexual touch between adults and children. On the other, it may not, but it may foster compliance, which leaves room for inappropriate and escalating touch.
I think you should talk with the parents, and I think erratacorrige's script is good.
I like the oblique way of bringing it up. Talk about some news story you saw and do not mention Ken or Robbie at all. Let Robbie's mom make the connection.
posted by hypnogogue at 7:54 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hypnogogue at 7:54 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I may be the very odd woman out on this and do not shy from confrontation so this may not be good advice for you or others. I'd bring it up with the parents, lots of good advice on how to do that above, but I would also, since you know him, put Ken on alert. I would simply say to Ken: "I have noticed and will be watching your relationship with Robbie because I care about him."
Abusers are adept at fooling everyone.
posted by desert exile at 8:16 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Abusers are adept at fooling everyone.
posted by desert exile at 8:16 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't alert Ken, because if he's a predatorial abuser, he will take the notice and use it to clean off his hard drive, erase any evidence, prep the children he's been abusing with scripts, etc etc.
posted by erattacorrige at 10:11 AM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 10:11 AM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: I spoke to Robbie's mom. I messaged her asking to talk sometime, and she called me right away.
Due to MeFi's advice, I thought hard about the exact moments that made me uncomfortable. I narrowed it down to tickling for minutes, and also a game that involved Ken touching Robbie all over his body. I used @erattacorrige's script and told Robbie's mom about these incidents (she wasn't in the room) and how uncomfortable I felt, and also my misgivings about the way Ken behaved about the other boy Andy. I was so nervous that my voice was shaking, but it really helped to have the script and encouragement from MeFi comments.
At first, Robbie's mom had a lot of nervous laughter and downplayed what I said. After a while, she grew serious and confided that she had an incident of feeling uneasy about Ken touching Robbie. During that incident, she felt excruciatingly uncomfortable but didn't want to make a scene. It was so painful to watch that she turned away. Afterwards she stuffed down her misgivings and told herself not to be so hypersensitive. When speaking to me, she said she did the wrong thing in that moment and should have found an excuse to pull Robbie into a different room. I told her not to beat herself up, because the deer-in-headlights reaction is very normal, and I also froze when I saw Ken tickling Robbie.
She also said, "Thankfully Robbie is a boy. I'd really be worried if I had a daughter, but since I have a son, I don't need to worry." I then talked to her about how boys are at risk, not just girls.
She seemed to be processing the information during our call, and progressed from laughing it off to taking it more seriously. She said she's never felt this discomfort about any other adult around Robbie. She said she'll talk to Robbie about appropriate vs inappropriate touch. I also found out that apparently her family is not as close friends with Ken as I thought. She said that she might try to cut down on their interactions with Ken. I told her that I support whatever she does, and that I think she's a caring and wonderful mom. She said she's not going to mention anything to Ken. Also she thanked me for telling her, and said she really appreciates it.
I told her that I worry about the other boy Andy too. But neither of us know Andy's parents, so we didn't know what to do there. :(
Thanks Metafilter! Your advice was very helpful. (Also, I'm not going to alert Ken.)
posted by cheesecake at 10:22 AM on January 10, 2023 [95 favorites]
Due to MeFi's advice, I thought hard about the exact moments that made me uncomfortable. I narrowed it down to tickling for minutes, and also a game that involved Ken touching Robbie all over his body. I used @erattacorrige's script and told Robbie's mom about these incidents (she wasn't in the room) and how uncomfortable I felt, and also my misgivings about the way Ken behaved about the other boy Andy. I was so nervous that my voice was shaking, but it really helped to have the script and encouragement from MeFi comments.
At first, Robbie's mom had a lot of nervous laughter and downplayed what I said. After a while, she grew serious and confided that she had an incident of feeling uneasy about Ken touching Robbie. During that incident, she felt excruciatingly uncomfortable but didn't want to make a scene. It was so painful to watch that she turned away. Afterwards she stuffed down her misgivings and told herself not to be so hypersensitive. When speaking to me, she said she did the wrong thing in that moment and should have found an excuse to pull Robbie into a different room. I told her not to beat herself up, because the deer-in-headlights reaction is very normal, and I also froze when I saw Ken tickling Robbie.
She also said, "Thankfully Robbie is a boy. I'd really be worried if I had a daughter, but since I have a son, I don't need to worry." I then talked to her about how boys are at risk, not just girls.
She seemed to be processing the information during our call, and progressed from laughing it off to taking it more seriously. She said she's never felt this discomfort about any other adult around Robbie. She said she'll talk to Robbie about appropriate vs inappropriate touch. I also found out that apparently her family is not as close friends with Ken as I thought. She said that she might try to cut down on their interactions with Ken. I told her that I support whatever she does, and that I think she's a caring and wonderful mom. She said she's not going to mention anything to Ken. Also she thanked me for telling her, and said she really appreciates it.
I told her that I worry about the other boy Andy too. But neither of us know Andy's parents, so we didn't know what to do there. :(
Thanks Metafilter! Your advice was very helpful. (Also, I'm not going to alert Ken.)
posted by cheesecake at 10:22 AM on January 10, 2023 [95 favorites]
That was so brave and it sounds like it will have the right effect. Good on you for speaking up.
posted by kingdead at 10:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 10:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
cheesecake, you did absolutely the right thing and handled it so incredibly well. Thank for you noticing it, asking her and being so open, and then speaking up. I feel very hopeful: we may not be able to prevent all abuse but we can do our best to intervene when something starts to feel off. So much love and appreciation for you!!!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
What a great outcome and you did great. That's awesome.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, while it’s certainly very likely that Andy does exist, it’s possible that Ken made him up to try to gain trust with Robbie and his family. If he’s an active abuser, then he knows all sorts of things to say that gain trust. I’ve had to learn to fight against my positivity and hope to look at the world in a really dark way at times but ultimately it’s helped keep me and others safer. Huge trigger warning in advance but there’s a recent episode of Psychology in Seattle called “Interview with a P***phile” that may provide insight for those interested. I was fine listening even as a survivor of CSA but many people may find it overwhelming, even those without a history of trauma so head’s up!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:41 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by smorgasbord at 10:41 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thank you so much cheesecake for being willing to speak up.
posted by Peach at 11:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Peach at 11:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm so glad you followed through, even though it was hard. You will not regret it.
posted by rpfields at 1:26 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 1:26 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thank you for trusting your gut and speaking to his mom, you did something that could change that kid's trajectory. Proud of you.
posted by fairlynearlyready at 1:50 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by fairlynearlyready at 1:50 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Cheesecake, you're amazing; that sounds like such a difficult conversation to have, you must have been so nervous but what an excellent outcome. You should be proud of yourself for standing up for Robbie. Good for you.
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:11 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:11 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am so thankful for you, cheesecake, listening to your gut. This thread has been on my mind all day. You did exactly what was best, all the way around, and you did it in a fabulous way. I am so grateful for you!
posted by annieb at 5:27 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by annieb at 5:27 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
One of the chapters of The Gift of Fear deals with an adult man grooming a tween/teenage boy.
posted by brujita at 7:27 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 7:27 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know I'm just an internet stranger but I really appreciate you did this. I found this thread and your update helpful to read and will refer back if I'm ever in a "should I speak up" situation.
posted by sequel at 12:29 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by sequel at 12:29 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm very grateful for the measured thoughtfulness in this thread, both from cheesecake and the other posters. And thank you for the heartening update about Robbie's mother's response.
posted by umbú at 10:36 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by umbú at 10:36 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do some research on Ken. There may be obvious reasons for concern.
I'm really proud of you for having the courage to have a difficult conversation, researching it 1st, and doing it in a calm, rational, caring way.
posted by theora55 at 10:44 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm really proud of you for having the courage to have a difficult conversation, researching it 1st, and doing it in a calm, rational, caring way.
posted by theora55 at 10:44 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Re: Andy, do you think perhaps you could write a letter to Andy's parents using a similar script? And you might also mention that you've already spoken to another boy's mother who, though she was unsure how to react to you at first, ended up admitting that she too has been worried about Ken's behavior with her son. No need to mention names if you'd rather not. In fact you could even make the whole letter anonymous.
A few years ago I wrote an anonymous email to a woman telling her that her husband had propositioned me. She appreciated the note even though it was anonymous. This is kind of a comparable situation, IMO, though the possible consequences are much more serious. If there is no other way you can do it, an anonymous email or note would be the best way to go.
posted by MiraK at 6:57 PM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
A few years ago I wrote an anonymous email to a woman telling her that her husband had propositioned me. She appreciated the note even though it was anonymous. This is kind of a comparable situation, IMO, though the possible consequences are much more serious. If there is no other way you can do it, an anonymous email or note would be the best way to go.
posted by MiraK at 6:57 PM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Re "write a letter to Andy's parents", yes, I've been thinking in the past day about writing an anonymous note. I'll have to do some sleuthing to find the parents' contact info, because Ken rarely mentioned Andy's parents even though he talked about Andy so much. (That was another reason I was creeped out.) So I know a great deal about Andy's likes and dislikes, but I'm not even sure of his parents' names. However, I'll look into it. I might send a physical letter (not email) so that it has more emotional impact.
Re "do research on Ken", I already searched for Ken's name in sex offender registries before writing this MeFi question. If there's other research I can do, please tell me about it.
Re "maybe Ken made up Andy", sadly that is not the case. Robbie's mom has seen Andy from a distance.
Re the Gift of Fear chapter on grooming, yes! I read that book long ago, and that chapter made an impression on me. The movie Leaving Neverland was also very useful in showing how well-meaning parents get groomed and end up in denial.
I really appreciate the MeFi moderators for cleaning up the comments. I suppose the word "grooming" has been taken over by the far-right and used for all manner of baseless accusations, so the comments were at risk of devolving into an angry ideological debate. It's too bad the word has been corrupted, because actual grooming is under-recognized.
For anyone who might speak up in the future about their own situations, I don't think the soft approach would have worked. It took 10 minutes to get through the nervous laughter & downplaying stage with Robbie's mom. She made many excuses for Ken's behavior, and I needed to gently counter each one. Even after cracks started to form in her denial, she would suddenly revert back to "No no, but I still trust Ken". Eventually we did get past that stage and then she volunteered her own concerns, but I'm confident that the soft approach would not have been enough to get through the denial.
Also, for the future, one thing I learned is that some things feel alarming in person but don't sound bad when described (such as Ken disciplining Robbie). The creepiness gets "lost in translation". Other things sound just as worrisome as they felt, such as the tickling. It's useful to try out your description on a couple people before going for the real conversation. It's not important if there are red herrings and confusion the first time you try out your description. It's only important that no one is confused the final time you describe it.
posted by cheesecake at 4:27 AM on January 12, 2023 [34 favorites]
Re "do research on Ken", I already searched for Ken's name in sex offender registries before writing this MeFi question. If there's other research I can do, please tell me about it.
Re "maybe Ken made up Andy", sadly that is not the case. Robbie's mom has seen Andy from a distance.
Re the Gift of Fear chapter on grooming, yes! I read that book long ago, and that chapter made an impression on me. The movie Leaving Neverland was also very useful in showing how well-meaning parents get groomed and end up in denial.
I really appreciate the MeFi moderators for cleaning up the comments. I suppose the word "grooming" has been taken over by the far-right and used for all manner of baseless accusations, so the comments were at risk of devolving into an angry ideological debate. It's too bad the word has been corrupted, because actual grooming is under-recognized.
For anyone who might speak up in the future about their own situations, I don't think the soft approach would have worked. It took 10 minutes to get through the nervous laughter & downplaying stage with Robbie's mom. She made many excuses for Ken's behavior, and I needed to gently counter each one. Even after cracks started to form in her denial, she would suddenly revert back to "No no, but I still trust Ken". Eventually we did get past that stage and then she volunteered her own concerns, but I'm confident that the soft approach would not have been enough to get through the denial.
Also, for the future, one thing I learned is that some things feel alarming in person but don't sound bad when described (such as Ken disciplining Robbie). The creepiness gets "lost in translation". Other things sound just as worrisome as they felt, such as the tickling. It's useful to try out your description on a couple people before going for the real conversation. It's not important if there are red herrings and confusion the first time you try out your description. It's only important that no one is confused the final time you describe it.
posted by cheesecake at 4:27 AM on January 12, 2023 [34 favorites]
Adults should get friends of their own age. There's just no reason for an adult a get physical with a minor, (male or female), even if it's just for the appearance. The fact that it is done openly/within the sight ofthe parents doesn't make it better. Again good for you. I hope other people are watching out for you just like you are for your friend.
posted by amfgf at 5:21 PM on January 24, 2023
posted by amfgf at 5:21 PM on January 24, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
Nothing. Also, I don't know why you wouldn't include Robbie's other parent in this discussion; they are both equally Robbie's parents.
Robbie's parents seemed completely accustomed to walking in on Ken being affectionate with Robbie.
So, Robbie's parents are aware of Ken's behavior, at least as much as you are. You would not be communicating new information to them.
At first I thought he might just really love kids, but he doesn't show any interest in having a relationship or having his own kids.
Loving interactions with kids is not connected to wanting a relationship or their own kids. If he's not in a relationship, him talking about having his own kids would be fairly uncommon. I don't know how you can conclude Ken has no interest in having a relationship from the sorts of interactions you're having with him. Most folks don't try to advertise their dating situation in public, or in areas outside dating-specific activities/websites. Finally, some people are not able to have kids for various reasons; this can have challenging implications to being in a relationship sometimes.
I felt uneasy after the trip. There was no smoking-gun behavior that "proves" anything, just an accumulation of moments that gave me a strong intuition.
By your own words, you have no evidence of anything inappropriate going on, and the evidence you've seen is literally the same evidence Robbie's parents have seen. You also don't know if this style of interaction isn't intended - pseudo-coparenting and actual coparenting arrangements are not uncommon in the world due to how challenging parenting is today, especially for families that may not have help from extended relatives.
Robbie's mom is a very caring person and a responsible mom.
By your own words, Robbie's mom knows what's going on, and is responsible enough to make a decision about what she accepts in her family's relationship with Ken.
posted by saeculorum at 11:34 AM on January 9, 2023 [22 favorites]