I Am a Destroyer of Cameras - Please Help!
October 15, 2022 6:51 PM Subscribe
I primarily take photos on hikes, and in doing so invariably wind up damaging my camera: my latest victim is a Sony RX100VA, and the repair bill is too high ($675). I'd love something both rugged and small - i.e. with a retractable lens and will fit in my running vest - which will take better shots than my phone (which the "tough" cameras don't seem to do). Does this camera exist (doesn't have to be new - used/ old is fine)? Because I'm mostly shooting in bright light, a viewfinder would be real nice too.
I bought a used Lumix TZ100 for $300 as a replacement, but sent it back because it didn't seem particularly robust/ would survive many hikes.
I've toyed with the idea of a Sony RX0, which I'd definitely like to play around with, but I'm not sold on the sample images.
The most solid camera I've ever owned - which got thrown across a rocky mountaintop and continued to function - was a Fujifilm X20, but the form won't fit in my running vest, and the more compact Fujifilm X series models are a real step up in price.
About the RX100: I think I might be able to get it repaired under warranty, but I'm not currently living in the country where I bought it, so that isn't an option right now.
I bought a used Lumix TZ100 for $300 as a replacement, but sent it back because it didn't seem particularly robust/ would survive many hikes.
I've toyed with the idea of a Sony RX0, which I'd definitely like to play around with, but I'm not sold on the sample images.
The most solid camera I've ever owned - which got thrown across a rocky mountaintop and continued to function - was a Fujifilm X20, but the form won't fit in my running vest, and the more compact Fujifilm X series models are a real step up in price.
About the RX100: I think I might be able to get it repaired under warranty, but I'm not currently living in the country where I bought it, so that isn't an option right now.
I disagree with the smartphone advice. Yes, these are good in many regards, but if this were the solution, OP would have already been doing this. In my experience, smartphones (even the fanciest iPhones) do poorly when there is a featured object at a distance surrounded by a very busy background, as is typical on hikes. Family pictures on wooded hikes look flat and compressed, worse than the same photo in front of a more plain background. Shooting in RAW could help this, but introduces additional challenges (size, processing time, speed, battery).
I also seek this sort of camera, which I want to have a larger lens and sensor (than a smartphone) but remain in a compact body that is easy to use quickly. My current solution is a GoPro Hero 9, which is plenty robust and small, and still images have detail and pixels enough to be cropped. I also use a Fuji X100F that is a bit bigger/heavier and requires more fiddling than I would prefer.
posted by zachxman at 6:15 AM on October 16, 2022
I also seek this sort of camera, which I want to have a larger lens and sensor (than a smartphone) but remain in a compact body that is easy to use quickly. My current solution is a GoPro Hero 9, which is plenty robust and small, and still images have detail and pixels enough to be cropped. I also use a Fuji X100F that is a bit bigger/heavier and requires more fiddling than I would prefer.
posted by zachxman at 6:15 AM on October 16, 2022
I don't have a particular recommendation, but waterproof cameras are also typically ruggedized. DP Review has a few recommendations. It sounds like you might want to prioritize size higher than they did.
posted by adamrice at 6:40 AM on October 16, 2022
posted by adamrice at 6:40 AM on October 16, 2022
Short Answer: Since you keep destroying cameras, get an iPhone 13 Pro (now on sale that the 14 is out) with a rugged case. It will do what you want, is waterproof, has a telephoto, wide angle, and macro lens. Above all else, it takes excellent photos. It also doubles as a gps unit for shorter trips. Pro tip: tap the screen to set the focus and exposure location if the phone does not correctly pick what you want to focus on, which is often the case when you have an off center subject.
Long Answer: As soon as you start to add retractable or interchangeable lenses, viewfinders, and such, the durability of the package drops like a rock and the weight/cost goes way up. Sport units like the GoPros don't have the viewfinder or lenses you want unless yo do a lot of cropping and that drastically reduces image quality. Compact cameras really lag the state of the art image quality compared to what you find in a modern smartphone and rarely have the viewfinder. By the time you can replicate what the iPhone can do in terms of image quality and flexibility, you are lugging around a lot of stuff.
I have three units that I bring on my trips depending on what I'm doing: the iPhone, an old Nikon J5 w/ two lenses, and a Nikon Z6 w/ 14-30 + 100-400mm. The iPhone is great for when I'm out for a run along the trail. The J5 is my typical multi day backpacking camera due to the ultrawide I have for it and the fact that I can replace the batteries easily. The Z6 is heavy in comparison (8lb for the entire kit) and only brought when image quality matters above all other factors.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 6:58 AM on October 16, 2022
Long Answer: As soon as you start to add retractable or interchangeable lenses, viewfinders, and such, the durability of the package drops like a rock and the weight/cost goes way up. Sport units like the GoPros don't have the viewfinder or lenses you want unless yo do a lot of cropping and that drastically reduces image quality. Compact cameras really lag the state of the art image quality compared to what you find in a modern smartphone and rarely have the viewfinder. By the time you can replicate what the iPhone can do in terms of image quality and flexibility, you are lugging around a lot of stuff.
I have three units that I bring on my trips depending on what I'm doing: the iPhone, an old Nikon J5 w/ two lenses, and a Nikon Z6 w/ 14-30 + 100-400mm. The iPhone is great for when I'm out for a run along the trail. The J5 is my typical multi day backpacking camera due to the ultrawide I have for it and the fact that I can replace the batteries easily. The Z6 is heavy in comparison (8lb for the entire kit) and only brought when image quality matters above all other factors.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 6:58 AM on October 16, 2022
What types of photos are you taking on your hikes?
In my experience, the newer iPhones perform as well or better than dedicated cameras for general landscape photography, but struggle when it comes to close-ups or anything involving zoom. Since the iPhone has no optical zoom you can forget about taking pictures of small faraway objects, and the small aperture means no nice background blurring. To some extent the iPhone can recreate a short depth of field with software in portrait mode, but I find the results somewhat mixed — it looks great in some photos and crummy in others. The new iPhones also have an auto-HDR feature which similarly works great in some situations (captures a scene closer to how the eye sees it) but in others it has the effect of flattening the natural light and dark range of the photo and making everything look a bit gray.
I went on a fall hike yesterday carrying both my iPhone 12 Mini and an old PowerShot G10. The PowerShot takes GREAT photos, has a solid rugged body, a viewfinder, 5x optical zoom, and is completely customizable including a full manual mode if you want — so, maybe that one? It’s quite old at this point (came out in 2008) so you can probably get one relatively cheaply online.
posted by mekily at 7:20 AM on October 16, 2022
In my experience, the newer iPhones perform as well or better than dedicated cameras for general landscape photography, but struggle when it comes to close-ups or anything involving zoom. Since the iPhone has no optical zoom you can forget about taking pictures of small faraway objects, and the small aperture means no nice background blurring. To some extent the iPhone can recreate a short depth of field with software in portrait mode, but I find the results somewhat mixed — it looks great in some photos and crummy in others. The new iPhones also have an auto-HDR feature which similarly works great in some situations (captures a scene closer to how the eye sees it) but in others it has the effect of flattening the natural light and dark range of the photo and making everything look a bit gray.
I went on a fall hike yesterday carrying both my iPhone 12 Mini and an old PowerShot G10. The PowerShot takes GREAT photos, has a solid rugged body, a viewfinder, 5x optical zoom, and is completely customizable including a full manual mode if you want — so, maybe that one? It’s quite old at this point (came out in 2008) so you can probably get one relatively cheaply online.
posted by mekily at 7:20 AM on October 16, 2022
I'd focus on Canons because whoo boy have I flung them around and they keep on ticking. I will be watching this with interest because I am in the same boat as you. Disappointed people recommend iPhone so much - there are FAR better options, because you want a camera, not a camera added to a whole other device.
I'd also stay away from CMOS sensors within and stick with CCD sensors.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:36 AM on October 16, 2022
I'd also stay away from CMOS sensors within and stick with CCD sensors.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:36 AM on October 16, 2022
As an addendum: The 'Pro' is the iPhone model that gets the nod from me. Not the SE, not the regular, not the mini. The 13 Pro and 14 Pro have the extra wide angle with macro, lidar for focus assist, and all of the other goodies that they toss in that puts it ahead of any point and shoot that I've ever had to use.
Once you outgrow that, then you are at a decision point. The path forward from there requires a lot of compromises in terms of durability, size, and weight for any gains in photo quality or other features.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 1:06 PM on October 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Once you outgrow that, then you are at a decision point. The path forward from there requires a lot of compromises in terms of durability, size, and weight for any gains in photo quality or other features.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 1:06 PM on October 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I find that even a pricey point and shoot like the RX100 only beats modern smartphones for a few specific kinds of shots: telephoto zooms, and fast action (kids/animals/sports).
So maybe an add-on lens kit is a way to get a little more fun (and optical zoom) out of your phone.
posted by hovey at 6:08 PM on October 16, 2022
So maybe an add-on lens kit is a way to get a little more fun (and optical zoom) out of your phone.
posted by hovey at 6:08 PM on October 16, 2022
When you say the "tough" cameras don't seem to take better pictures than your phone, are you talking about the action camera category (like, say, GoPro) or specifically of an Olympus Tough series camera (or a similar rugged model from a manufacturer like Nikon, Fujifilm, or Ricoh)? Sites like DPReview love the features and robust construction of the Olympus, but even their otherwise positive review of the Olympus Tough TG-6 mentions that its absolute picture quality will suffer in comparison to a new, high-end smartphone. If you read through the comparison that adamrice linked above, you'll see that this particular shortcoming is common across literally every camera in the category. The tradeoff is that a rugged camera is a lot less fragile than a smartphone, so you might be willing to carry or use it in situations you wouldn't be willing to risk damaging an iPhone 14 Pro.
If you're already carrying a good smartphone on your hikes anyway for other reasons, it may be time to give up on carrying a dedicated camera. The lenses aren't sharp enough and the sensors aren't large enough to compete with the computational photography in the latest phones.
posted by fedward at 10:46 AM on October 17, 2022
If you're already carrying a good smartphone on your hikes anyway for other reasons, it may be time to give up on carrying a dedicated camera. The lenses aren't sharp enough and the sensors aren't large enough to compete with the computational photography in the latest phones.
posted by fedward at 10:46 AM on October 17, 2022
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! I currently have a Pixel 5 which I took with me hiking: it did take decent shots (in fact, before I returned the Lumix TZ100 I did a comparison and preferred the Pixel 5 images) but I just can't see what I'm shooting in bright light, so I'm realizing that a lack of viewfinder is a dealbreaker. I'm also realizing that the tank-built compact cameras from ~10 years ago come with a cost of significant weight, which is also a dealbreaker. Right now I can't see any other option than to pick up a used Sony HX90V for $300, so that I have the things I want/ need, and won't cry quite so much when it goes down....
posted by my log does not judge at 5:23 PM on October 17, 2022
posted by my log does not judge at 5:23 PM on October 17, 2022
Having destroyed two Lumix cameras with retractable lenses, this is now why I have a Lumix with a detachable lens. Yes it's a little bulkier, but the image quality is worth it and the retraction mechanisms are just too fragile for hiking.
posted by wps98 at 9:13 PM on October 17, 2022
posted by wps98 at 9:13 PM on October 17, 2022
One other not-yet-mentioned benefit of phones is the automatic addition of GPS data to each photo, which I find extra useful if taking photos while out on a walk, especially in unfamiliar surroundings. I like to know exactly where that great view was!
For reasons I've never understood, vanishingly small numbers of non-phone cameras include GPS. There are ways to match up photos with a GPS trail captured by a phone or similar, but that sounds more of a faff than I've ever wanted to try.
posted by fabius at 5:04 AM on October 18, 2022
For reasons I've never understood, vanishingly small numbers of non-phone cameras include GPS. There are ways to match up photos with a GPS trail captured by a phone or similar, but that sounds more of a faff than I've ever wanted to try.
posted by fabius at 5:04 AM on October 18, 2022
The Olympus Tough series includes not just GPS but an assortment of other sensors used to tag your photos as they're taken. FWIW their non-Tough cameras can sync with a GPS trail if you use their phone app, but you have to remember to launch the app and turn that feature on at the start of your activity, then turn it off and sync it at the end. I've used it a few times and it works well enough, but for that purpose I admit I'd rather have a camera with built-in GPS.
I think the reason more dedicated cameras don't include GPS is primarily battery life. If one company's cameras have GPS but only manage, say, 60% as many shots on a battery charge as their leading competitor, more people will choose the competitor's camera with longer battery life than will choose the camera with GPS. It's like electric car range anxiety. It's exceedingly rare for me to drain a battery in one day's shooting, but it's still a factor when I go on a weekend hiking trip, when I might want both GPS and guaranteed battery life. If I have to give one of the two features up, putting GPS on the chopping block makes sense.
posted by fedward at 8:18 AM on October 18, 2022
I think the reason more dedicated cameras don't include GPS is primarily battery life. If one company's cameras have GPS but only manage, say, 60% as many shots on a battery charge as their leading competitor, more people will choose the competitor's camera with longer battery life than will choose the camera with GPS. It's like electric car range anxiety. It's exceedingly rare for me to drain a battery in one day's shooting, but it's still a factor when I go on a weekend hiking trip, when I might want both GPS and guaranteed battery life. If I have to give one of the two features up, putting GPS on the chopping block makes sense.
posted by fedward at 8:18 AM on October 18, 2022
While we are going down this rabbit hole.....
Another advantage that the smartphone systems have right now is huge volume and very, very fast product iterations. With the technology rapidly changing, this gives them a huge advantage over traditional camera systems.
The iPhone 14 Pro and Pixel 7 Pro will both sell in the tens of millions each quarter, and the entire iPhone/Pixel ecosystem will sell hundreds of millions of units in a year. A camera like the Olympus Tough, of which the TG-6 is the latest version, may crack a million or so over a multi year product lifetime. The volume allows both Apple and Google to push the state of the art in both sensor / lens design as well as computational photography to do things that Olympus simply does not have the resources to do.
This is creating a nasty feedback loop in the entire industry. Point and shoot camera volumes are way down as the smartphone is "good enough" for most people. This limits the investment in newer dedicated systems at the consumer level. Since releasing the last tough point and shoot based system, Olympus has exited the market, spinning off OM Systems to carry the torch. They _may_ release a TG-7 to replace the TG-6 that came out in 2019. During that time, Apple went from the iPhone 11 (Sept 2019) -> 12 -> 13 -> 14. To make it even worse, the TG-6 is most likely based on 2015 tech due to the development timeline, the iPhone 11 is based on 2018 tech because they are just iterating that fast. And that is before we even start with software upgrades from newer IOS releases. The TG-6 has had no firmware upgrades to date.
For those who are used to carrying a "real" camera for historical reasons, you may want to check out the newer systems. There are still times when a dedicated camera will win (underwater with strobes, wildlife/safari, action) but those dedicated systems extract a huge price in terms of size, durability, and price.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 10:11 AM on October 18, 2022
Another advantage that the smartphone systems have right now is huge volume and very, very fast product iterations. With the technology rapidly changing, this gives them a huge advantage over traditional camera systems.
The iPhone 14 Pro and Pixel 7 Pro will both sell in the tens of millions each quarter, and the entire iPhone/Pixel ecosystem will sell hundreds of millions of units in a year. A camera like the Olympus Tough, of which the TG-6 is the latest version, may crack a million or so over a multi year product lifetime. The volume allows both Apple and Google to push the state of the art in both sensor / lens design as well as computational photography to do things that Olympus simply does not have the resources to do.
This is creating a nasty feedback loop in the entire industry. Point and shoot camera volumes are way down as the smartphone is "good enough" for most people. This limits the investment in newer dedicated systems at the consumer level. Since releasing the last tough point and shoot based system, Olympus has exited the market, spinning off OM Systems to carry the torch. They _may_ release a TG-7 to replace the TG-6 that came out in 2019. During that time, Apple went from the iPhone 11 (Sept 2019) -> 12 -> 13 -> 14. To make it even worse, the TG-6 is most likely based on 2015 tech due to the development timeline, the iPhone 11 is based on 2018 tech because they are just iterating that fast. And that is before we even start with software upgrades from newer IOS releases. The TG-6 has had no firmware upgrades to date.
For those who are used to carrying a "real" camera for historical reasons, you may want to check out the newer systems. There are still times when a dedicated camera will win (underwater with strobes, wildlife/safari, action) but those dedicated systems extract a huge price in terms of size, durability, and price.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 10:11 AM on October 18, 2022
Response by poster: One more update in case someone finds this thread later: I did not end up buying a Sony HX90V, but instead wound up with a Canon G5X, which I picked up on Amazon used (looks new though as far as I can tell) for $300. Side-by-side, it isn't that much bigger than an RX100 (it just looks bigger because of the clunky EVF/ flash/ hot shoe), it isn't that much heavier (~50g), the performance is excellent, and it's built like a tank (and the screen flips round too so you can just use the EVF and protect the screen). It's not an ideal fit for my running vest, but it works, and I think it's the best compromise between size and durability.
posted by my log does not judge at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2022
posted by my log does not judge at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
I've owned a few high end compacts and still own a lot of DSLR gear. I use my phone more than anything else and mine's a few years old. Computational photography is the shizzle and the high end phone makers are far more advanced than traditional camera makers here.
posted by mewsic at 1:41 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]