position vs. place

May 25, 2022 1:21 PM

Grammar nerds: as transitive verbs meaning to put something into a position or place, do both position and place require a prepositional complement indicating the position or place, or can either or both stand alone with only their direct object in the predicate?

Which of the following would you say are acceptable?

a) Position a full container and close the drawer.
b) Place a full container container and close the drawer.
c) Place a full container into position and close the drawer.

Note, I'm not asking which is better. Just which are acceptable. My role with the text in question gives me minimal leeway to rewrite anything, and only for reasons of grammatical/syntactical error, and not "because it sounds better that way." Note also that I don't have a lot of context or visuals so I DO NOT KNOW whether the container is being positioned/placed in the drawer or somewhere else before the drawer is closed.

posted by drlith to Grab Bag (17 answers total)

Option C for sure. the parallel construction of 'place' + direct object and 'close' + direct object make the sentence crystal clear
posted by BadgerDoctor at 1:33 PM on May 25, 2022

I'm not a grammar nerd, but I do spend a lot of time thinking about space in a very formal sense. I'd use "position" to describe coordinates and "place" to describe an act. B and C seem equally good. I wouldn't be surprised by A, but I wouldn't say it myself.
posted by eotvos at 1:35 PM on May 25, 2022

Actually, on review, option A has the same construction so maybe never mind? Option C just sounds so much more natural and clear to my ears
posted by BadgerDoctor at 1:35 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

C, definitely.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:36 PM on May 25, 2022

My grammaticality judgments are:

a) Unacceptable. Missing a complement.
b) Unacceptable. Missing a complement. (Ignoring the doubled "container"; assuming it's a typo.)
c) Acceptable.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:38 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

I say A and C are grammatically acceptable, but the real issue is whether the instructions are clear. Consider "Take the following steps to ensure that the container is secured in its slot: Position a full container and close the drawer." It's awkward, but it's clear and grammatically correct. If you don't have the context, though, it's impossible to know whether the instructions are clear.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:49 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

If you are using the verbs "place" and "position" to mean strictly and only "move to a location" then only c is correct. However, if you expand the definition of "position" slightly to include the connotation of arrangement, then a would also be correct.

a) Position the vase and close the curtain.

I suspect there's a similar way to make b grammatically correct, but I can't think of an example right now.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 1:52 PM on May 25, 2022

My feeling is that (c) is definitely the clearest, and (a) and (b) sound much less natural, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call them unacceptable. (Like Kutsuwamushi, I'm assuming "container container" is a typo.)

You would normally use "place" or "position" with a prepositional (or adverbial) phrase:

• place it on the desk
• position it as you see fit

but you could also use "position" without such a phrase, to mean "put something into a suitable, desired or appropriate position":

• The general was absorbed in positioning [equivalently: "repositioning"] his troops.

And on the other hand "place" can be used in all kinds of idiomatic or context-specific ways ("place a call", "place an order", "place a bet", etc.) So for instance, if I was reading the instructions for a board game and encountered a sentence like "When it's your turn, you must place a token.", I wouldn't think there was anything odd about it.
posted by teraflop at 1:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

Is B what you intended to type? I can't parse "Place a full container container".

Either A or C is acceptable as is.
posted by Etrigan at 2:28 PM on May 25, 2022

B is unacceptable.

C is acceptable.

A is a mystery and therefore unacceptable.

If there is preceding text that explains how to position the full container, or if proper positioning of this full container will be knowledge common to this text's audience, then A is unambiguous. If not, A suffers from the same lack as B. Because we do not know which is the case, A must be deemed unacceptable.

Somebody may quibble that C is equally ambiguous, since we have no more idea whether there is preceding text or common knowledge dictating proper placement of the full container with C than with A. But grammatically C is perfectly clear and unambiguous. C explains exactly how to place the full container. Into position, that's how.

Refuse to sanction anything but C unless and until you acquire further information.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:06 PM on May 25, 2022

Certainly they don't require a prepositional complement. Other adverbial forms could work. "Place the groceries there." "Position the catapults here."

(c) will often be preferable as requiring the least context to understand. (a) and (b) are more likely to be unclear, but they're not grammatically incorrect. teraflop's analysis is the best/most descriptively sensitive in that regard. "Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen" might be metaphorical to most of us now, but it's literally a reference to putting down markers on, e.g., a roulette board.
posted by praemunire at 3:12 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

All are acceptable strictly grammatically. None are preferable in terms of clarity, but you asked for the former.

The real answer is what your style guide(s) say.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:40 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

I agree with SaltySalticacid. None of them are grammatically incorrect.

(B) strikes me as marginally less clear, however, and (C) the relatively most clear.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:10 PM on May 25, 2022

Grammatically, you definitely don't need a prepositional phrase (or any sort of adverb, like someone mentioned). The presence of "and close the drawer" is irrelevant. What you gain from a prepositional phrase (or "here") is the ability to tell where the heck you're meant to be putting the container, but it's possible that that information is available from the context. If it isn't, you have a syntactically correct sentence that's failing at communicating.

I can't tell if 'container container' in (b) is intended or a mistake. If it is intended, I cannot parse the sentence. If it's a mistake, then all are perfectly fine, if unclear without context.
posted by hoyland at 6:10 PM on May 25, 2022

Position the full container, and close the drawer.
posted by Oyéah at 6:38 PM on May 25, 2022

"A" sounds like a mistake but would be acceptable if it made sense to "position" the container in the drawer - positioning is more careful and precise than placing. So say you had two people setting up a prank with a bucket balanced on top of the door, especially if you were trying to hide the details from the reader, you might say "he positioned the full bucket carefully and then hid behind the sofa". It's a little unusual still but not wrong.
posted by Lady Li at 10:16 PM on May 25, 2022

As standalone sentences, all three are grammatically ok. From a style and clarity standpoint, C sucks the least. If you can only edit grammar, roll your eyes and move on. If you put the sentences into the context of a paragraph, it would be clearer as to the meaning, but the grammar can stand on its own.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]