Can I math?
November 25, 2021 11:14 AM Subscribe
I want to pursue a degree that is largely a math degree, and I am really trying to figure out if it is something I can do at my age with my (lack of) math skills, if I work hard at it. I have always identified as being "bad at math", avoided it where I can, and yes, internalized "women are bad at math". I am 45 years old, which concerns me about tackling a subject that I will likely struggle with. But I want to switch to the the data science undergrad degree and as my advisor explained, its more math that computers. Its calculus and then some.
I want to believe if I work hard, yes I can learn this. I also recognize there is a huge mental block of being afraid of math. My most recent math experience was not good; when I started school again in 2019, I hadn't had a math class for 20+ years. My advisor at the time assured me I would have no problem keeping up with the college algebra course I had placed into 20 some years ago; and even if I did, I would easily be able to catch up with the tutoring they offered. It didn't work that way, and I ended up dropping it because I couldn't khan academy my way to where I needed to be.
I have had other struggles in life, disability related, financial, mental illness, and so school has been rocky and I ended up withdrawing one semester, not going another. I do have continuing challenges, but at least for the moment, will only be doing school part time so I have some buffer. However, I also have adhd, which impacts working memory, and at 45, I have come to see that I can't always learn things the way I see other students pick them up. I'm just slower.
That being said, I already knew I wanted to go into data science when I started going back to school, and knew I'd need at least calculous to do the work I wanted to do. Plus just as a personal accomplishment, I felt I wanted to learn at least that far to prove I could. I resisted my advisor's attempts to get me to take the "easy" math class that would fulfull requirements.
At the time I started in school again, the data science program was masters level. I knew I wanted to do that, (along with psychology), and so I joined the information science and technology program as a stepping stone. But having worked in the tech field in a number of capacities, I was finding myself just bored and annoyed I would have to take classes either I've already had working experience in or I had enough knowledge to know I didn't want to waste my time (and money) learning. Even before some of the other issues I was having outside of school, I was feeling disenchanted. And when expressing this to my advisor, he pointed out that they added a data science undergrad degree in the short time I was out of school again.
Its EXACTLY what I wanted to do the moment I set foot in school. But I keep going in circles here - are my math problems something I can work hard and overcome, or is that impractical to the point of not being worth it. I am not against the hard work of tackling a difficult subject, I just am afraid I won't be able to, at least not in a meaningful time frame.
One problem that I've discussed with a number of people when first going back to finish my undergrad degree, was that I felt that most of my classes were too easy, the information went too slow, and as someone with adhd, it really caused me to struggle with focusing and staying interested. I think that is the one piece that might be counting in my favor, that this might be challenging enough to hit the right buttons to really engage me.
I am including the list of courses for this program for those who want to know more about the specifics of what math I would need to learn. I also know so little of math, that maybe I'm mischaracterizing as advanced math.
I am someone that has always learned best on my own, and school has been difficult because of this. But the flip side is that it is doubtful I would learn this without the structured environment of school pushing me down a path to do so. I've often reflected on taking on math on my own up to learning calculus, but felt without any guidance, I had no where to start and it became a "someday I'd like to..." idea.
I want to believe if I work hard, yes I can learn this. I also recognize there is a huge mental block of being afraid of math. My most recent math experience was not good; when I started school again in 2019, I hadn't had a math class for 20+ years. My advisor at the time assured me I would have no problem keeping up with the college algebra course I had placed into 20 some years ago; and even if I did, I would easily be able to catch up with the tutoring they offered. It didn't work that way, and I ended up dropping it because I couldn't khan academy my way to where I needed to be.
I have had other struggles in life, disability related, financial, mental illness, and so school has been rocky and I ended up withdrawing one semester, not going another. I do have continuing challenges, but at least for the moment, will only be doing school part time so I have some buffer. However, I also have adhd, which impacts working memory, and at 45, I have come to see that I can't always learn things the way I see other students pick them up. I'm just slower.
That being said, I already knew I wanted to go into data science when I started going back to school, and knew I'd need at least calculous to do the work I wanted to do. Plus just as a personal accomplishment, I felt I wanted to learn at least that far to prove I could. I resisted my advisor's attempts to get me to take the "easy" math class that would fulfull requirements.
At the time I started in school again, the data science program was masters level. I knew I wanted to do that, (along with psychology), and so I joined the information science and technology program as a stepping stone. But having worked in the tech field in a number of capacities, I was finding myself just bored and annoyed I would have to take classes either I've already had working experience in or I had enough knowledge to know I didn't want to waste my time (and money) learning. Even before some of the other issues I was having outside of school, I was feeling disenchanted. And when expressing this to my advisor, he pointed out that they added a data science undergrad degree in the short time I was out of school again.
Its EXACTLY what I wanted to do the moment I set foot in school. But I keep going in circles here - are my math problems something I can work hard and overcome, or is that impractical to the point of not being worth it. I am not against the hard work of tackling a difficult subject, I just am afraid I won't be able to, at least not in a meaningful time frame.
One problem that I've discussed with a number of people when first going back to finish my undergrad degree, was that I felt that most of my classes were too easy, the information went too slow, and as someone with adhd, it really caused me to struggle with focusing and staying interested. I think that is the one piece that might be counting in my favor, that this might be challenging enough to hit the right buttons to really engage me.
I am including the list of courses for this program for those who want to know more about the specifics of what math I would need to learn. I also know so little of math, that maybe I'm mischaracterizing as advanced math.
I am someone that has always learned best on my own, and school has been difficult because of this. But the flip side is that it is doubtful I would learn this without the structured environment of school pushing me down a path to do so. I've often reflected on taking on math on my own up to learning calculus, but felt without any guidance, I had no where to start and it became a "someday I'd like to..." idea.
The question is, what do you want to do with the degree when you're done? If you're not the kind of person for whom calculus is obvious and easy and fun, then surely it will be a struggle to continue to grow or be easy employed in that field in the future?
I mean, usually people try to figure out what they like and/or are really good at, and then go get the appropriate qualifications to help them progress in that field. It seems weird to me to move to a more maths-based course if that's not something you can do in your sleep.
posted by tillsbury at 11:25 AM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I mean, usually people try to figure out what they like and/or are really good at, and then go get the appropriate qualifications to help them progress in that field. It seems weird to me to move to a more maths-based course if that's not something you can do in your sleep.
posted by tillsbury at 11:25 AM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I came in here to say sure you can, I'm older than you and currently acing a grad level statistics class even though I, too, have been traditionally "bad at math" and struggled in math classes all through high school.
But then I looked at the class list you linked to and... whoa. That is a lot of math. My question is less "can you do that?" than "do you really want to do that???" Because that is a degree for someone who really loves and embraces math, not someone just willing to tolerate it on the way to something else.
My instinct is to say that you probably could do it, miserably, if you had to. But I would take some time before launching into this and really think about whether you really love math, or are just intrigued by the challenge of succeeding at something that's hard for you.
posted by invincible summer at 11:40 AM on November 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
But then I looked at the class list you linked to and... whoa. That is a lot of math. My question is less "can you do that?" than "do you really want to do that???" Because that is a degree for someone who really loves and embraces math, not someone just willing to tolerate it on the way to something else.
My instinct is to say that you probably could do it, miserably, if you had to. But I would take some time before launching into this and really think about whether you really love math, or are just intrigued by the challenge of succeeding at something that's hard for you.
posted by invincible summer at 11:40 AM on November 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
I studied applied math and statistics back before data science was a thing so take my opinions with a grain of salt.
The difficulty of the courses listed depends a lot on the school. Calc I is probably harder at MIT than at a jr college somewhere. That makes the decision harder. However, I will point out that one of the main uses of calculus will be to prove the theorems behind the statistical methods, but actual use of the statistics mostly involves setting up data to be crunched with programs that are already written. In other words, the more advanced math is more about knowing what you are doing, and how it can go wrong, than about the doing of the work.
So it may be possible for you to find a job in your chosen field where subject matter knowledge, e.h. psychology, is more important than math knowledge.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:46 AM on November 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
The difficulty of the courses listed depends a lot on the school. Calc I is probably harder at MIT than at a jr college somewhere. That makes the decision harder. However, I will point out that one of the main uses of calculus will be to prove the theorems behind the statistical methods, but actual use of the statistics mostly involves setting up data to be crunched with programs that are already written. In other words, the more advanced math is more about knowing what you are doing, and how it can go wrong, than about the doing of the work.
So it may be possible for you to find a job in your chosen field where subject matter knowledge, e.h. psychology, is more important than math knowledge.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:46 AM on November 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Have you been checked for any learning disabilities? There is a less well known math-specific learning disability called dyscalculia that might be worth looking into. If you get a learning disability dx, you can get extensions and other accomodations for assignments and coursework. This website is a little janky looking but still a good resource for dyscalculia.
There are also textbook-specific learning websites that are pay-for-subscription that I've found useful for tougher subjects (I have ADHD/probably dyscalculia) that review textbook problems step by step and offer additional practice problems; I like one I can refer you to if you're interested.
I think it's definitely possible for you to do what you want to do, and that a learning issue shouldn't hold you back from pursuing what you want. However, it will be challenging, and I think it's important to go in with the expectation that it will be challenging and frustrating and to have a plan in place for coping with those really tough moments.
posted by erattacorrige at 12:07 PM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are also textbook-specific learning websites that are pay-for-subscription that I've found useful for tougher subjects (I have ADHD/probably dyscalculia) that review textbook problems step by step and offer additional practice problems; I like one I can refer you to if you're interested.
I think it's definitely possible for you to do what you want to do, and that a learning issue shouldn't hold you back from pursuing what you want. However, it will be challenging, and I think it's important to go in with the expectation that it will be challenging and frustrating and to have a plan in place for coping with those really tough moments.
posted by erattacorrige at 12:07 PM on November 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I think the question I have is not whether or not it will be hard, but with enough work, be it on my own, with tutoring, etc. can it be learned at a later stage in life with adhd. I am fairly certain working with math once I understand it will not be boring, I’ve worked with a data scientist in the past, and worked closely with a colleague that did a lot of our data analysis over the course of two jobs (and was trying to steal him to a third), and have had gaps in my knowledge that both he helped me fill and helped inform my decision to go back to school and seek this out. I mean I can pour over data for days, I just am lacking the skills in using it in complex and meaningful ways. And when I started back in school, much of the research I was reading (I have a bad habit of going too deep on assignments) was using calculus to make the type of inferences and models I wanted to be able to do, but I had to “read around” the math parts because I didn’t know what the math parts were doing.
Ironically, the stats part doesn’t scare me at all, even though the two are intricately linked.
Because of part time enrollment and course overlap between the two programs, I have at least 1, possibly 2 semesters to decide, and next semester I’ve already planned with my advisor to sort out math with a placement test (covid delayed that, I was going to do the placement testing in spring 2020 and take the resulting course in fall 2020, but then covid closed the school and a lot of ancillary services, like math placement testing, were put on hold).
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2021
Ironically, the stats part doesn’t scare me at all, even though the two are intricately linked.
Because of part time enrollment and course overlap between the two programs, I have at least 1, possibly 2 semesters to decide, and next semester I’ve already planned with my advisor to sort out math with a placement test (covid delayed that, I was going to do the placement testing in spring 2020 and take the resulting course in fall 2020, but then covid closed the school and a lot of ancillary services, like math placement testing, were put on hold).
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2021
I'm an academic advisor, and to be honest, my heart sinks a little bit every time any student declares the data science major. It's a really hefty major, and it's so sequenced, and you have to take a bunch of really difficult classes at the same time in order to graduate on time. It's also a super buzzy field right now, and I worry that students declare data science because of the buzz, without really thinking about whether they'd be better served by a stats or CS degree. So without even getting into the specifics of your situation, I would recommend doing some more research about what you'd really get out of the degree and whether there are other, less-intense ways to get there.
Aside from that, my main question is what exactly you think went wrong in your college algebra class. Is it that you'd forgotten some of the material that they expected you to know, and you could go back, do some review, and be fine? Would it have worked in a different format? Did you make full use of tutoring early on? Do you have negative feelings left over from high-school math that you need to deal with before you can devote yourself to the same stuff as an adult? You're definitely not going to be able to handle Calc III if you can't do college algebra, so I think it's worth figuring out what prevented you from doing well in that class and what you can do about it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:23 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
Aside from that, my main question is what exactly you think went wrong in your college algebra class. Is it that you'd forgotten some of the material that they expected you to know, and you could go back, do some review, and be fine? Would it have worked in a different format? Did you make full use of tutoring early on? Do you have negative feelings left over from high-school math that you need to deal with before you can devote yourself to the same stuff as an adult? You're definitely not going to be able to handle Calc III if you can't do college algebra, so I think it's worth figuring out what prevented you from doing well in that class and what you can do about it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:23 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry about thread sitting. Erattacorrage , please yes, I would like that resource. As for dyscalculia or other learning disability, I never considered it, even though I had heard of it. In school, I was super math avoidant, and as an adult, the rare times I’d have to figure out something in math to make something else work, I eventually could but on my own time/terms, so sort of assumed that I was just being avoidant. Also because I tend to be smart in other areas. But it would make good sense that if I had a learning disability in addition to adhd that would cause me to flounder and avoid math. Especially as in school, I generally did well on standardized tests. Except math, which was a big hole. It was assumed I was lazy and not trying hard enough, as so often was the case with someone intelligent and high performing SOME OF THE TIME in some areas
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:25 PM on November 25, 2021
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:25 PM on November 25, 2021
Best answer: I teach at an open access 4-year college. Many of our students come in not fully prepared for college algebra. They are placed into College Algebra with an additional 3 credit "support course" taught by the same professor, who is an expert at teaching developmental math. Some of them go on to major in Math. Some of them transfer to Georgia Tech for engineering. There is no reason that being underprepared in math now has to determine your fate. You are not "bad at math". You are underprepared in math.
If your college does not have a
"Developmental" or "student success" intro math program, you might see if there is a local community college that does. Having that extra support through College Algebra will lay the foundation for success in your degree. It is worth the extra time. You can do this!
posted by hydropsyche at 12:30 PM on November 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
If your college does not have a
"Developmental" or "student success" intro math program, you might see if there is a local community college that does. Having that extra support through College Algebra will lay the foundation for success in your degree. It is worth the extra time. You can do this!
posted by hydropsyche at 12:30 PM on November 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
There's certainly such a thing as "bad at maths", but a much more common thing is "bad at enjoying maths". You've said that you enjoy poring over data, but do you enjoy poring over problem sheets, trying to get the right answer? This is a lot of what you'll be doing, and your competition will by and large be people who do. If the answer has historically been 'no', you'd need to be very sure that this time is different - I think it'd be horribly painful to get through a degree with this much maths as someone who didn't get a buzz out of maths once they get it.
If I type '2x + 3y = 10 and 4x + y = 20', is there a part of that wants to know what x and y are, just for the sake of it?
posted by wattle at 12:54 PM on November 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
If I type '2x + 3y = 10 and 4x + y = 20', is there a part of that wants to know what x and y are, just for the sake of it?
posted by wattle at 12:54 PM on November 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
with enough work, be it on my own, with tutoring, etc. can it be learned at a later stage in life with adhd
As someone who undertook coursework after being out of school for many years, with serious chronic illness and lots of executive dysfunction, I'll say this: I think that yes, it can be learned - but it's very possible that it can't be learned at the pace and with the simultaneous workload that your program will demand.
What flexibility does your program offer? If mine had let me take, say, one class a semester, and complete the program at a snail's pace, I probably could have done it. As it didn't, and I had to keep the same pace as healthier and more organized people, I did a lot of damage to my health and overworked unsustainably to try to keep up.
"Enough work" is the rub - sometimes there aren't enough hours in the day, or enough hours when your brain has the energy to process things, and it turns out to be a hard limit rather than something you can transform with willpower. You'll need to look honestly at your capacity for work, and underestimate rather than overestimate your ability to work effectively over a long period of time (not because you should underestimate yourself in general, but because this is one area where you want to find yourself in reality with more, rather than less, spare time and energy than you'd imagined).
In your place I'd try to evaluate my capacity unflinchingly (and pessimistically), and see if there are any other paths toward doing either the coursework you want to do, or the kind of professional work you want to be doing.
If you do decide to do this, absolutely don't skimp on the tutoring and any other forms of support you can arrange - and set it all up from the start, rather than leaving it for "if I end up needing it" midway through the term.
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
As someone who undertook coursework after being out of school for many years, with serious chronic illness and lots of executive dysfunction, I'll say this: I think that yes, it can be learned - but it's very possible that it can't be learned at the pace and with the simultaneous workload that your program will demand.
What flexibility does your program offer? If mine had let me take, say, one class a semester, and complete the program at a snail's pace, I probably could have done it. As it didn't, and I had to keep the same pace as healthier and more organized people, I did a lot of damage to my health and overworked unsustainably to try to keep up.
"Enough work" is the rub - sometimes there aren't enough hours in the day, or enough hours when your brain has the energy to process things, and it turns out to be a hard limit rather than something you can transform with willpower. You'll need to look honestly at your capacity for work, and underestimate rather than overestimate your ability to work effectively over a long period of time (not because you should underestimate yourself in general, but because this is one area where you want to find yourself in reality with more, rather than less, spare time and energy than you'd imagined).
In your place I'd try to evaluate my capacity unflinchingly (and pessimistically), and see if there are any other paths toward doing either the coursework you want to do, or the kind of professional work you want to be doing.
If you do decide to do this, absolutely don't skimp on the tutoring and any other forms of support you can arrange - and set it all up from the start, rather than leaving it for "if I end up needing it" midway through the term.
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
If you would like a lower stress, less financially risky option for finishing off some math courses, you should be able to take transferable courses at MATC (I did!). They offer the same, standard track from remedial algebra through calculus as the universities. The atmosphere is more relaxed and it's easier to meet with the instructors, who are professional teachers, and not grad students. I found the quality of instruction to be as good, if not better than a 4-year university. They also have a tutoring center with tutors available for all math courses.
posted by erpava at 1:10 PM on November 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by erpava at 1:10 PM on November 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
Diving into a program like that without a solid math background is a recipe for failure. I'm not saying "don't do it", but to acknowledge the risk and plan accordingly. If you fall behind in a math class, it is almost impossible to catch up, especially if you're taking an otherwise busy course load (*pause to reflect on the time an abstract algebra course absolutely kicked my ass and almost derailed my graduate degree*).
If you do this, make sure you have slack in your schedule in case you need to spend 3x the normal time on a course. And if you have the means, get a tutor to help with personalized instruction, at least until you've had some success with math and built your confidence. Others' suggestions to find courses that will meet you at your level are excellent, as is testing the waters by brushing up on the math before you've fully committed to this path.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:57 PM on November 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you do this, make sure you have slack in your schedule in case you need to spend 3x the normal time on a course. And if you have the means, get a tutor to help with personalized instruction, at least until you've had some success with math and built your confidence. Others' suggestions to find courses that will meet you at your level are excellent, as is testing the waters by brushing up on the math before you've fully committed to this path.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:57 PM on November 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is there a way you can audit one of the first classes, just to get a feel for what it would actually be like?
I suggest this as a professor myself. If I had a student in your situation send me an email and ask if they could audit the subject -- even if they were someone who wasn't technically enrolled at my institution -- I would have no problem with them coming to lectures and trying the assignments on their own. They wouldn't be able to attend tutorials or have their assignments marked, but I might even try to add them to Blackboard or Canvas so they could get all of the materials. In general professors are in the job they are because they want people to learn, so they will do what they can to facilitate it (unless it adds considerably to their workload or will get them in trouble).
If nothing else, you can always just find out when the lectures are and physically turn up to them. It's not like there are people at the entry-way making sure that the only people who come are officially enrolled.
PS. I have ADHD and my research is data science adjacent. Properly managed and medicated, ADHD should not be a problem. I would say the larger issues are the math fear and the lack of background, but both of those are overcomeable.
posted by contrapositive at 2:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
I suggest this as a professor myself. If I had a student in your situation send me an email and ask if they could audit the subject -- even if they were someone who wasn't technically enrolled at my institution -- I would have no problem with them coming to lectures and trying the assignments on their own. They wouldn't be able to attend tutorials or have their assignments marked, but I might even try to add them to Blackboard or Canvas so they could get all of the materials. In general professors are in the job they are because they want people to learn, so they will do what they can to facilitate it (unless it adds considerably to their workload or will get them in trouble).
If nothing else, you can always just find out when the lectures are and physically turn up to them. It's not like there are people at the entry-way making sure that the only people who come are officially enrolled.
PS. I have ADHD and my research is data science adjacent. Properly managed and medicated, ADHD should not be a problem. I would say the larger issues are the math fear and the lack of background, but both of those are overcomeable.
posted by contrapositive at 2:02 PM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
It may be the case that data science is the right degree for you, but this program is not the right fit for you.
What is going to be tricky with the specific program you mentioned, is that it will self-select students who get math easily. Moreover, some of the math hoops you will have to jump through include courses that involve proof writing. Generally speaking, the art of proof writing is much more important to mathematicians than data scientists. I think at the end of the day you will likely be able to understand the concepts covered in these advanced math courses (3blue1brown FTW), but being able to demonstrating your knowledge in formal math courses, may be a different story.
IMHO you might be better off getting an undergraduate B.A./ B.S. in computer science (perhaps with a statistics minor). And then find one of the master's programs that only require a semester's worth of calculus and statistics as mathematics prereqs.
posted by oceano at 3:39 PM on November 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
What is going to be tricky with the specific program you mentioned, is that it will self-select students who get math easily. Moreover, some of the math hoops you will have to jump through include courses that involve proof writing. Generally speaking, the art of proof writing is much more important to mathematicians than data scientists. I think at the end of the day you will likely be able to understand the concepts covered in these advanced math courses (3blue1brown FTW), but being able to demonstrating your knowledge in formal math courses, may be a different story.
IMHO you might be better off getting an undergraduate B.A./ B.S. in computer science (perhaps with a statistics minor). And then find one of the master's programs that only require a semester's worth of calculus and statistics as mathematics prereqs.
posted by oceano at 3:39 PM on November 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you work hard, yes you can probably learn this. But you have 25 years of not learning and using Math, and it's a big hill to climb. Math is learnable. It's often very badly taught. The only way I was able to do college algebra was to practice, do problem after problem after problem. If you can find extra support, grab it. It's oddly enjoyable to exercise your brain and probably really good for brain health.
posted by theora55 at 4:42 PM on November 25, 2021
posted by theora55 at 4:42 PM on November 25, 2021
It look like there is some gatekeeping going on. Other than stats and data structures there will be less hard math in a lot of the later classes. But it's a sticky hard to get through gate. Do you have time to start now getting math review? Get all the texts, then get other texts that are helpful and get some one on one tutoring by good mathematicians? All the serious data science papers are written in the language of math (even if some are handwavy and tweak their own data;-) Can pushing through be your entire life until you get through the gate? Go for it.
posted by sammyo at 4:52 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 4:52 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
In the institutions I've worked in or studied at, Statistics is required for Accounting/Business and Psychology. Of course, talk with a student advisor, but maybe you could look at what degrees let you take a full load of Statistics courses that don't require Calculus or Algelbra. Depending on your ideal job, statistics might be just what you need.
I did statistics courses as a mature age student (with untreated ADHD) through distance education and the only thing I had to get help with was matrices. I also discovered that knowing how to pronounce Poisson (high school French) did not help with pronouncing outlier (results either end of Bell curve): I called it oot-lee-er, rather than out-lier which amused the first person who knew what I was talking about. Now, older with my ADHD treated, I have to relearn statistics every time I use them, which is only about once a year and that is very frustrating and tiring.
Another thing about taking easy courses where you know the stuff - it reduces your overall mental load so that you can skim the coursework and do the assignments based simply on the assignment criteria. I understand the feeling of wasting money, but it took me 3 attempts to get a degree, and it was far easier when I knew that I could be less burdened by taking (online) classes without exams (assignment-based only - though the statistics classes from a previous attempt were used as credits for the degree I finally ended up with). It was so hard to sit and study that I used the Pomodoro technique, except it was 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off (I still can't believe I got my degree in 15 minute chunks - now with medication, I can sit still and work 10 hours straight, with only bathroom breaks).
posted by b33j at 6:07 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I did statistics courses as a mature age student (with untreated ADHD) through distance education and the only thing I had to get help with was matrices. I also discovered that knowing how to pronounce Poisson (high school French) did not help with pronouncing outlier (results either end of Bell curve): I called it oot-lee-er, rather than out-lier which amused the first person who knew what I was talking about. Now, older with my ADHD treated, I have to relearn statistics every time I use them, which is only about once a year and that is very frustrating and tiring.
Another thing about taking easy courses where you know the stuff - it reduces your overall mental load so that you can skim the coursework and do the assignments based simply on the assignment criteria. I understand the feeling of wasting money, but it took me 3 attempts to get a degree, and it was far easier when I knew that I could be less burdened by taking (online) classes without exams (assignment-based only - though the statistics classes from a previous attempt were used as credits for the degree I finally ended up with). It was so hard to sit and study that I used the Pomodoro technique, except it was 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off (I still can't believe I got my degree in 15 minute chunks - now with medication, I can sit still and work 10 hours straight, with only bathroom breaks).
posted by b33j at 6:07 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
So.... senior year of high school and I had done three semesters worth of physics and calculus and nowhere less than Caltech already. My calculus teacher sent me on morning errands and only woke me up to explain thing for like the third time from a different perspective to the few kids in class who still didn't understand something. Then she asked me to tutor a girl failing algebra because small town, we were on same sports team, knew each other enough, blah blah. So I did. We laughed and gossiped and giggled over her little sister's crush on older sister's tutor. Tutored for a couple or three months before being let-go. She was ace-ing algebra. Several years later and I'm back home and hanging out with sports coach catching up and well just gossiping... Turns out she went on to university and graduated as a math major.
Never fall into the "girls can't do maths". Ever.
My (whatever neuro-atypical brain) agrees with wattle: If I type '2x + 3y = 10 and 4x + y = 20', is there a part of that wants to know what x and y are, just for the sake of it?. Maths is a lot like "how many ways can you come up with an answer?". Maths isn't hard per-se, it's more like pondering patterns and methods and whether or not you like pondering about numbers and relations and such, and maybe if you can find where that sort of thinking intersects with reality.
posted by zengargoyle at 7:31 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Never fall into the "girls can't do maths". Ever.
My (whatever neuro-atypical brain) agrees with wattle: If I type '2x + 3y = 10 and 4x + y = 20', is there a part of that wants to know what x and y are, just for the sake of it?. Maths is a lot like "how many ways can you come up with an answer?". Maths isn't hard per-se, it's more like pondering patterns and methods and whether or not you like pondering about numbers and relations and such, and maybe if you can find where that sort of thinking intersects with reality.
posted by zengargoyle at 7:31 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is just a complete shot in the dark, but any chance you're autistic? You remind me of my partner, who is autistic + ADHD + dyscalculic and always thought she was "bad at math" because frankly the way we teach math is non-intuitive and makes no sense to her, yet she can grasp mathematical concepts intuitively. For example, the base 10 system makes no sense, we only use it because we have 10 fingers, but really base 6 or base 12 would be way more logical. Also using linear scales makes no sense, because nature is inherently logarithmic. So she wasn't "bad at math" per se, she just speaks a more fundamental language than the notation they teach in school, plus, she was told she was bad at math so never got the chance to really see what she was capable of.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:03 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:03 PM on November 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hypothesis: maths is a logical system that builds step on step on what we already know and draws logical conclusions about things we've defined. Your challenge is to find the parts of a new problem that are an old problem (that you know how to solve) in new form.
If the hypothesis holds, there's no reason this isn't for you -- it will take time to build together all the ideas in your course. If the hypothesis doesn't hold, you're missing a step and will need to work outward from what you know you can prove -- it's possible you're missing a stair.
That's the theory. In theory, theory and practice are the same thing; in practice, they're not.
Your course and its staff may be able to help you build the confidence to defy that society-induced message, or they might think it's on you to do the work in therapy and study to keep up with the course and complete the study requirements. Anyway, you're always going to need study friends, so also remember to invest time in peers who can let you know it's not just you, this really is badly explained material.
posted by k3ninho at 1:30 AM on November 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
If the hypothesis holds, there's no reason this isn't for you -- it will take time to build together all the ideas in your course. If the hypothesis doesn't hold, you're missing a step and will need to work outward from what you know you can prove -- it's possible you're missing a stair.
That's the theory. In theory, theory and practice are the same thing; in practice, they're not.
Your course and its staff may be able to help you build the confidence to defy that society-induced message, or they might think it's on you to do the work in therapy and study to keep up with the course and complete the study requirements. Anyway, you're always going to need study friends, so also remember to invest time in peers who can let you know it's not just you, this really is badly explained material.
posted by k3ninho at 1:30 AM on November 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, you can learn this material. The maths-based course sequences in your link are in the main progressively harder and harder calculation-type mathematics. Unless you have dyscalculia, with the right amount of time and effort and the right teaching/learning style for you you will be able to understand these.
I think there are two problems that you might face. Firstly, the kind of course will self select for people who grasp mathematical concepts quickly. This may mean that the pace of each course is too fast for you especially the earlier ones where you will encounter large class sizes when you are out of practice. However, the preparatory courses listed are incredibly standard and transferable, so I would encourage you to find a good supportive place that is aimed at returners to education to take college algebra and then take at least the first couple of calculus courses there.
The second problem is having the right scaffolding and approach to study that works with your ADHD rather than against it. Learning this kind of mathematics is mainly about practicing how to solve certain kinds of problems. The more practice you do, the better and more fluent you become at it. Each mathematics course in this degree builds on the previous ones, so you need to be confident that you have mastered the material at the early level. I think this means finding a way to play to your learning strengths. There is more support nowadays for neurodivergent students, both in academic institutions and through online resources. Take advantage of it.
posted by plonkee at 1:59 AM on November 26, 2021
I think there are two problems that you might face. Firstly, the kind of course will self select for people who grasp mathematical concepts quickly. This may mean that the pace of each course is too fast for you especially the earlier ones where you will encounter large class sizes when you are out of practice. However, the preparatory courses listed are incredibly standard and transferable, so I would encourage you to find a good supportive place that is aimed at returners to education to take college algebra and then take at least the first couple of calculus courses there.
The second problem is having the right scaffolding and approach to study that works with your ADHD rather than against it. Learning this kind of mathematics is mainly about practicing how to solve certain kinds of problems. The more practice you do, the better and more fluent you become at it. Each mathematics course in this degree builds on the previous ones, so you need to be confident that you have mastered the material at the early level. I think this means finding a way to play to your learning strengths. There is more support nowadays for neurodivergent students, both in academic institutions and through online resources. Take advantage of it.
posted by plonkee at 1:59 AM on November 26, 2021
My sense, as a onetime math professor who has taught some data science courses, is that this major is going to frustrate you by not having enough data in it. There's a ton of theory and high-level background material, and while the intuition you build while doing multivariable calculus is certainly helpful in dealing with high-dimensional data sets, it isn't a substitute for digging into them.
There is a three-course sequence that doesn't have calculus prerequisites and will give you a bunch of practical skills and some theory to organize those skills with:
But my big piece of advice is, talk to your psychology professors and tell them you're interested in learning statistics and working with real-world data. I'm the Math Person in my family, but my sister the counseling psychologist has spent substantially more time working with data than I have, because using statistics to understand data is what social scientists do.
posted by yarntheory at 7:37 AM on November 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
There is a three-course sequence that doesn't have calculus prerequisites and will give you a bunch of practical skills and some theory to organize those skills with:
- Take Psych Stats, if you haven't already.
- Take the Intro to Data Science course.
- Take the Matrices and Applications course.
But my big piece of advice is, talk to your psychology professors and tell them you're interested in learning statistics and working with real-world data. I'm the Math Person in my family, but my sister the counseling psychologist has spent substantially more time working with data than I have, because using statistics to understand data is what social scientists do.
posted by yarntheory at 7:37 AM on November 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
Another thing to be aware of is that your institution has two calculus sequences, one aimed at math and physics majors and one aimed at business majors. You can take all of the statistics classes in the Data Science major with two semesters of business calculus as prerequisites. If you did that, you'd also earn a math minor! That means you have options: if the teaching approach in one calculus sequence doesn't work for you, check out the other sequence.
posted by yarntheory at 3:59 PM on November 27, 2021
posted by yarntheory at 3:59 PM on November 27, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Frankly if you struggled so much in college algebra 2 years ago that you didn’t finish the course I think pursuing data science is a bad idea.
Better to lean into your strengths and pursue something in one of the course areas where you succeed without effort.
posted by crazy with stars at 11:20 AM on November 25, 2021 [8 favorites]