How to have trust in a relationship after a betrayal?
October 10, 2021 1:40 AM Subscribe
My boyfriend has been using tinder as a 'porn' aid. How can (or should) I get past this?
(asking for a friend)
I (f, 20) just found out my boyfriend (m, 23) of one year has been using tinder when I'm not around. After seeing a 'welcome back to tinder' notification pop up on my boyfriend's phone, I checked his email and saw evidence that over the last couple months he was activating his (gold) tinder account at times we were not together and then deactivating it when we were. There was one other instance of a snap chat message that I saw that may or may not have been recent that was from a girl replying that she would like to trade pics with him. I asked him about it and he was horrified I'd found out, profusely apologised, and told me he was using tinder 100% as a 'porn' aid, and had no intention of ever meeting any women in person and no intention whatsoever of cheating on me. He says he loves me, wants to be with me, and is sorry for his stupidity.
Our relationship has been (I thought) loving and happy. I trusted him completely and it never occurred to me to doubt his reliability. I want to believe him and I 99% do. But. Should I take a chance and stay with him? How can I have full trust in him again?
I believe most people are fallible, sometimes do stupid things, and usually, deserve a second chance. Am I being naive if I stay with him? Does it indicate low self esteem on my part? How do I feel comfortable again knowing that even if he wasn't out meeting other women, he thought it was okay to be on a dating site while in a relationship with me?
How do I decide whether to give him another chance?
Thanks for any incite you can give!
(asking for a friend)
I (f, 20) just found out my boyfriend (m, 23) of one year has been using tinder when I'm not around. After seeing a 'welcome back to tinder' notification pop up on my boyfriend's phone, I checked his email and saw evidence that over the last couple months he was activating his (gold) tinder account at times we were not together and then deactivating it when we were. There was one other instance of a snap chat message that I saw that may or may not have been recent that was from a girl replying that she would like to trade pics with him. I asked him about it and he was horrified I'd found out, profusely apologised, and told me he was using tinder 100% as a 'porn' aid, and had no intention of ever meeting any women in person and no intention whatsoever of cheating on me. He says he loves me, wants to be with me, and is sorry for his stupidity.
Our relationship has been (I thought) loving and happy. I trusted him completely and it never occurred to me to doubt his reliability. I want to believe him and I 99% do. But. Should I take a chance and stay with him? How can I have full trust in him again?
I believe most people are fallible, sometimes do stupid things, and usually, deserve a second chance. Am I being naive if I stay with him? Does it indicate low self esteem on my part? How do I feel comfortable again knowing that even if he wasn't out meeting other women, he thought it was okay to be on a dating site while in a relationship with me?
How do I decide whether to give him another chance?
Thanks for any incite you can give!
I was kinda vacillating on this until I saw tatiana wishbone's remark above about deactivating the app when you're around.
I agree that he obviously knows what he's doing is sketch, as evidenced by the fact that he is actively (though not very skilfully) hiding it from you. I furthermore disagree that this can just be considered another form of porn consumption, as he seems to be asserting. This is for a number of reasons: unlike traditional pr0n, there is presumably a possibility of meeting up with these women in real life; this is presumably the premise that said women are operating under, and if he is indeed not planning to do so as he tells you, he is actively misleading them in order to get nudes (or get them to interact with him at all); traditional performers/cam girls/whathaveyou are supposed to receive some form of remuneration for producing the material being consumed, which is not the case here.
His behavior bespeaks, at minimum, a massive sense of entitlement, particularly to women's bodies and sexuality. This is unsurprising in a 23-year-old hetero dude but that doesn't make it acceptable or something you're obligated to put up with.
If you're still too attached to break up with him at this stage, well, you have the right to choose to stay with him, but be on the lookout for further shitheel behavior because this is a pretty big red flag. The minute you can bear to part with him, can his ass.
posted by TinyChicken at 3:28 AM on October 10, 2021 [29 favorites]
I agree that he obviously knows what he's doing is sketch, as evidenced by the fact that he is actively (though not very skilfully) hiding it from you. I furthermore disagree that this can just be considered another form of porn consumption, as he seems to be asserting. This is for a number of reasons: unlike traditional pr0n, there is presumably a possibility of meeting up with these women in real life; this is presumably the premise that said women are operating under, and if he is indeed not planning to do so as he tells you, he is actively misleading them in order to get nudes (or get them to interact with him at all); traditional performers/cam girls/whathaveyou are supposed to receive some form of remuneration for producing the material being consumed, which is not the case here.
His behavior bespeaks, at minimum, a massive sense of entitlement, particularly to women's bodies and sexuality. This is unsurprising in a 23-year-old hetero dude but that doesn't make it acceptable or something you're obligated to put up with.
If you're still too attached to break up with him at this stage, well, you have the right to choose to stay with him, but be on the lookout for further shitheel behavior because this is a pretty big red flag. The minute you can bear to part with him, can his ass.
posted by TinyChicken at 3:28 AM on October 10, 2021 [29 favorites]
Is he upfront and honest with these other people that he is using them as “porn aids?” SOLELY as porn aids? That he has zero intention of meeting them in person, ever? That he’s in a serious relationship with someone he (claims to) love “but I’m here on Tinder because _______?”
No, right?
No.
These people are PEOPLE, they are not fictional characters (or ethically treated and properly compensated performers) who he gets to masturbate to/about/with under false pretenses. Where is his conscience? What does he REALLY think of women? Other people in general? “Porn?” Sex? Love? You?
There are upstanding people in this world who you can and should date, and trust, and love. This guy is not one of them and never, ever, will be unless his eyes are opened at age 23 by you TOTALLY JUSTIFIABLY ending this relationship. Immediately.
Memail me if you want to know how I know what I know about people like your boyfriend. And what I wish I had done for myself and my future when I was 20, and thought I was so strong and so smart and naturally loving that I could afford to forgive all kinds of shit because We Are All Fallible.
No.
Please dump him today. Have someone with you if you need to so you do not waver and cave to his predictable promises/begging/“charm.” Please.
(Jinx, TinyChicken)
posted by argonauta at 3:42 AM on October 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
No, right?
No.
These people are PEOPLE, they are not fictional characters (or ethically treated and properly compensated performers) who he gets to masturbate to/about/with under false pretenses. Where is his conscience? What does he REALLY think of women? Other people in general? “Porn?” Sex? Love? You?
There are upstanding people in this world who you can and should date, and trust, and love. This guy is not one of them and never, ever, will be unless his eyes are opened at age 23 by you TOTALLY JUSTIFIABLY ending this relationship. Immediately.
Memail me if you want to know how I know what I know about people like your boyfriend. And what I wish I had done for myself and my future when I was 20, and thought I was so strong and so smart and naturally loving that I could afford to forgive all kinds of shit because We Are All Fallible.
No.
Please dump him today. Have someone with you if you need to so you do not waver and cave to his predictable promises/begging/“charm.” Please.
(Jinx, TinyChicken)
posted by argonauta at 3:42 AM on October 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
Askmefi will often give advice to break up. I will give both sets of advice:
This is shitty, and wrong. You know it, he knows it. It's closer to emotional cheating than porn. It's very similar to flirting with other women, all the time.
He's your boyfriend, which means you're exclusive, which means, this is just not okay. You know it, he knows it. He has broken a boundary.
If you want reasons to stay together:
But... When I was inexperienced with dating, some boundaries were much less clear. I would toe toward them, only later learning what really was and wasn't acceptable. I would make your boundaries absolutely clear. No flirting with other women while you are exclusive. No onlyfans (very similar), no strip clubs (basically paying to flirt), no dating apps, no snap with ladies you both don't know. It's not you being overbearing, it's you defining what exclusive means.
I would give him a second chance if you have been together over a year, AND generally feel loved, appreciated, few other problems, great chemistry, and you honestly think he "drifted" and made a mistake he won't repeat. If you think he will do it again, or if the relationship is only okay to begin with, I'd move on.
Please break up:
For many people, they stay in shitty, abusive relationships because breaking up is so hard. Your life entwines, your social group, everything is with the person. But, I can tell you from experience that when you're 20, being single and finding yourself, and really growing who you are as a person in some time in the early 20s, sets yourself up for a lot better relationships in the future. And, this experience would likely help your boyfriend know not to cheat on a future partner, too. He has broken your trust, but can maybe keep trust whole with the next person. Breaking up is really hard to do, but there's a pretty real chance if you stay with him, he'll do it again. Or worse. You'll wonder for a long time. Breaking a habit of cheating is a long and arduous path, and you have no responsibility to lead him down that path.
It's not low self esteem to stay with him if you think it was an honest mistake. But it is if you think he will do it again, and you stay at anyway! There's so many great matches for you, that will be kind, good in ways he's bad, out there for you. Focusing on yourself for a bit, and exploring who else is interested, will really open your eyes to your value in a healthy, positive way.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:56 AM on October 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
This is shitty, and wrong. You know it, he knows it. It's closer to emotional cheating than porn. It's very similar to flirting with other women, all the time.
He's your boyfriend, which means you're exclusive, which means, this is just not okay. You know it, he knows it. He has broken a boundary.
If you want reasons to stay together:
But... When I was inexperienced with dating, some boundaries were much less clear. I would toe toward them, only later learning what really was and wasn't acceptable. I would make your boundaries absolutely clear. No flirting with other women while you are exclusive. No onlyfans (very similar), no strip clubs (basically paying to flirt), no dating apps, no snap with ladies you both don't know. It's not you being overbearing, it's you defining what exclusive means.
I would give him a second chance if you have been together over a year, AND generally feel loved, appreciated, few other problems, great chemistry, and you honestly think he "drifted" and made a mistake he won't repeat. If you think he will do it again, or if the relationship is only okay to begin with, I'd move on.
Please break up:
For many people, they stay in shitty, abusive relationships because breaking up is so hard. Your life entwines, your social group, everything is with the person. But, I can tell you from experience that when you're 20, being single and finding yourself, and really growing who you are as a person in some time in the early 20s, sets yourself up for a lot better relationships in the future. And, this experience would likely help your boyfriend know not to cheat on a future partner, too. He has broken your trust, but can maybe keep trust whole with the next person. Breaking up is really hard to do, but there's a pretty real chance if you stay with him, he'll do it again. Or worse. You'll wonder for a long time. Breaking a habit of cheating is a long and arduous path, and you have no responsibility to lead him down that path.
It's not low self esteem to stay with him if you think it was an honest mistake. But it is if you think he will do it again, and you stay at anyway! There's so many great matches for you, that will be kind, good in ways he's bad, out there for you. Focusing on yourself for a bit, and exploring who else is interested, will really open your eyes to your value in a healthy, positive way.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:56 AM on October 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm going to come at it from a slightly different tack.
You should stay with him if, and only if, HE is the one who puts forth the initiative to repair this breach. That would look something like:
Making it clear that he understand this was hurtful to you and damaged your trust.
Proactively showing you that he's deleted his Tinder app and canceled his subscription.
Offering to let you go through his phone whenever you want to, to reassure you that he isn't hiding hookup apps.
You did your part--telling him you were hurt and your trust was damaged by what he did. (But he already knew that would happen from his hiding behavior, correct?) The breach of trust was on his part, and the only way it will be repaired is by work on his part to repair it.
You are not going to get the security that you want and need if you need to press for it. It's just that simple.
If he falls short of taking full responsibility and proactive repair, then he has failed to earn your love and you should leave him.
It's never worth it to stay in a relationship where you feel like you need to fight hard for basic things like trust, respect, and kindness.
posted by Sublimity at 4:16 AM on October 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
You should stay with him if, and only if, HE is the one who puts forth the initiative to repair this breach. That would look something like:
Making it clear that he understand this was hurtful to you and damaged your trust.
Proactively showing you that he's deleted his Tinder app and canceled his subscription.
Offering to let you go through his phone whenever you want to, to reassure you that he isn't hiding hookup apps.
You did your part--telling him you were hurt and your trust was damaged by what he did. (But he already knew that would happen from his hiding behavior, correct?) The breach of trust was on his part, and the only way it will be repaired is by work on his part to repair it.
You are not going to get the security that you want and need if you need to press for it. It's just that simple.
If he falls short of taking full responsibility and proactive repair, then he has failed to earn your love and you should leave him.
It's never worth it to stay in a relationship where you feel like you need to fight hard for basic things like trust, respect, and kindness.
posted by Sublimity at 4:16 AM on October 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
You also don’t have to be okay with him using tinder as porn - even if he is doing it “ethically” or “consensually” or whatever. You can just decide you don’t want that in a partner, regardless.
I would personally never be okay with this. Some people may be okay with this. But YOU don’t have to be okay with it.
posted by Crystalinne at 4:22 AM on October 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
I would personally never be okay with this. Some people may be okay with this. But YOU don’t have to be okay with it.
posted by Crystalinne at 4:22 AM on October 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
You need to have a lot of real conversations: about why he likes to use Tinder in this way, about which aspects of his life he wants to keep private from you and why, about whether he handles situations that he knows are likely to cause conflict with honesty or dishonesty and why, about each of your exact boundaries regarding fidelity and the reasons behind them so there is no reasonable gray area and you reach a willing compromise if necessary, etc. You can decide whether to stay based on how those conversations go.
posted by metasarah at 4:54 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 4:54 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are two possibilities here:
1. He's cheating, in the traditional sense.
2. He's merely using a dating site to scam girls out of nudes.
Either one is bad. Dump.
posted by kingdead at 5:21 AM on October 10, 2021 [55 favorites]
1. He's cheating, in the traditional sense.
2. He's merely using a dating site to scam girls out of nudes.
Either one is bad. Dump.
posted by kingdead at 5:21 AM on October 10, 2021 [55 favorites]
Here’s what you absolutely know: he sees women as things to be used in his hornieness.
This isn’t like a strip club or onlyfans where those women know what’s going on, consent, and make some money in exchange. Imagine how you would feel if you were one of them - I would feel pretty led on, used and grossed out.
Here’s what I know now that I wish I had understood when I was younger: you can’t change how someone sees women. You are a woman and you are a part of the class of people he feels ok leading on and lying to and it’s not going to change. Ironically, I would have different feelings (more positive) if he had just cheated on you in the flesh with one person. That’s the kind of breach in trust that relationships can recover from with work from both people. But someone who shows you that you will always be in this lesser category of person to him? Nah, don’t mess around. It’s not worth it. Fucking bounce.
This is shit behavior. Like really bad towards many people, not just you, and it indicates a serious lack of character on his part. His values don’t align with your’s and he knows it or he wouldn’t have tried to hide this from you. Don’t invest further in someone who has shown you who they are like this. There’s so much better out there for you and you do not need to waste any more of your early 20s on this particular man.
Part of my response is because you already suspect this. It comes out in your question. You already feel like you are worth more than this. But you want to rationalize out of it because breaking up with someone hurts and sucks and you feel like you owe him a chance to be better. You don’t. And the pain of breaking up now is so much less than it will be when you eventually get truly fed up with this behavior. Because it’s not going to stop, he’s just going to get sneakier. Feel your righteous anger and get yourself out of this relationship with someone who feels fine lying to you and dozens of other women. He is so not worth any more of your life force or effort.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:53 AM on October 10, 2021 [28 favorites]
This isn’t like a strip club or onlyfans where those women know what’s going on, consent, and make some money in exchange. Imagine how you would feel if you were one of them - I would feel pretty led on, used and grossed out.
Here’s what I know now that I wish I had understood when I was younger: you can’t change how someone sees women. You are a woman and you are a part of the class of people he feels ok leading on and lying to and it’s not going to change. Ironically, I would have different feelings (more positive) if he had just cheated on you in the flesh with one person. That’s the kind of breach in trust that relationships can recover from with work from both people. But someone who shows you that you will always be in this lesser category of person to him? Nah, don’t mess around. It’s not worth it. Fucking bounce.
This is shit behavior. Like really bad towards many people, not just you, and it indicates a serious lack of character on his part. His values don’t align with your’s and he knows it or he wouldn’t have tried to hide this from you. Don’t invest further in someone who has shown you who they are like this. There’s so much better out there for you and you do not need to waste any more of your early 20s on this particular man.
Part of my response is because you already suspect this. It comes out in your question. You already feel like you are worth more than this. But you want to rationalize out of it because breaking up with someone hurts and sucks and you feel like you owe him a chance to be better. You don’t. And the pain of breaking up now is so much less than it will be when you eventually get truly fed up with this behavior. Because it’s not going to stop, he’s just going to get sneakier. Feel your righteous anger and get yourself out of this relationship with someone who feels fine lying to you and dozens of other women. He is so not worth any more of your life force or effort.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:53 AM on October 10, 2021 [28 favorites]
I don’t like euphemisms. Let’s use real words.
“Porn aid” (ugh) probably means he’s:
Scrolling through women
Assessing which women he finds sexy
swiping right on those women
texting flirty convos with those women
Initiating sexual conversations with those women
Masturbating to those women’s pics while texting
Possibly video chatting to masturbate
Asking for them to send him nudes
Masturbating to the nudes
Not telling those women he is in a relationship
Deactivating Tinder when he likes you more and his guilt bubbles up
Not telling those women why he’s ghosting them
Reactivating Tinder whenever he’s mad at you and likes you a bit less
Shopping for sex with people who did not consent to be used in that way
Starting the cycle again
Those are real people who aren’t consenting to be his masturbation tools. They most likely think he’s single and he will want to meet up and maybe date at some point.
What’s he saying to them to get them to communicate with him? Think he’s being honest? “Hey, you’re gorgeous, could you be my porn aid for a couple days while I’m mad at my girlfriend?”
There are lots of people who ARE consenting to be masturbation tools - they’re called cam performers, porn stars, strippers, and sex workers... and they know what they’re getting into, and they get paid for their work.
I would dump this guy so fast...
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:55 AM on October 10, 2021 [85 favorites]
“Porn aid” (ugh) probably means he’s:
Scrolling through women
Assessing which women he finds sexy
swiping right on those women
texting flirty convos with those women
Initiating sexual conversations with those women
Masturbating to those women’s pics while texting
Possibly video chatting to masturbate
Asking for them to send him nudes
Masturbating to the nudes
Not telling those women he is in a relationship
Deactivating Tinder when he likes you more and his guilt bubbles up
Not telling those women why he’s ghosting them
Reactivating Tinder whenever he’s mad at you and likes you a bit less
Shopping for sex with people who did not consent to be used in that way
Starting the cycle again
Those are real people who aren’t consenting to be his masturbation tools. They most likely think he’s single and he will want to meet up and maybe date at some point.
What’s he saying to them to get them to communicate with him? Think he’s being honest? “Hey, you’re gorgeous, could you be my porn aid for a couple days while I’m mad at my girlfriend?”
There are lots of people who ARE consenting to be masturbation tools - they’re called cam performers, porn stars, strippers, and sex workers... and they know what they’re getting into, and they get paid for their work.
I would dump this guy so fast...
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:55 AM on October 10, 2021 [85 favorites]
One of the things about cheating is that now you have to expend more emotional energy to trust and believe him. He may be 100% willing to change his ways, but you're still gonna be left with having to do more work, just to trust him again.
You're both young and maybe don't know what your boundaries are just yet, what you find ok or maybe ok with the right person or absolutely not ok. This whole situation sounds like a learning experience for you both.
But bottom line, he didn't mention that he was doing this because he knew it was a bit sketchy and that you might not be ok with it. He didn't bring it up to you to talk about and establish what those boundaries are. While you're not clear about what being together and not together means in this situation, who knows, maybe y'all could have worked some out with you and me sending dirty texts/vids/whatever back in forth when you weren't around. Maybe you both would have liked approaching women together on Tindr. Who knows? No one, because it was never brought up by him.
Bottom line #2, he wasn't honest with you and now you don't trust him. You probably never will again, not as much as you did before. While that isn't always a complete negative, you're both young and able to find other relationships where you can find openness and honesty. So move on and realize what you've learned about your own boundaries and that of your future partner(s).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
You're both young and maybe don't know what your boundaries are just yet, what you find ok or maybe ok with the right person or absolutely not ok. This whole situation sounds like a learning experience for you both.
But bottom line, he didn't mention that he was doing this because he knew it was a bit sketchy and that you might not be ok with it. He didn't bring it up to you to talk about and establish what those boundaries are. While you're not clear about what being together and not together means in this situation, who knows, maybe y'all could have worked some out with you and me sending dirty texts/vids/whatever back in forth when you weren't around. Maybe you both would have liked approaching women together on Tindr. Who knows? No one, because it was never brought up by him.
Bottom line #2, he wasn't honest with you and now you don't trust him. You probably never will again, not as much as you did before. While that isn't always a complete negative, you're both young and able to find other relationships where you can find openness and honesty. So move on and realize what you've learned about your own boundaries and that of your future partner(s).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I flat out don’t believe his motivation for using Tinder was as a "porn aid."
Whether he admits it to himself or not, he was shopping. Sooner or later a profile would have come along that was too good to pass up.
This is a man with one foot out of your relationship. Give him a nudge and let him keep going.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
Whether he admits it to himself or not, he was shopping. Sooner or later a profile would have come along that was too good to pass up.
This is a man with one foot out of your relationship. Give him a nudge and let him keep going.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
What’s he saying to them to get them to communicate with him? Think he’s being honest? “Hey, you’re gorgeous, could you be my porn aid for a couple days while I’m mad at my girlfriend?”
This. He hasn't just been lying to you. He's certainly been lying to these women as well -- not just avoiding saying that he is in a relationship, but probably also saying whatever he needs to say in order to get them to send nudes.
I'd feel differently about your question of whether or not to give him a second chance if this was a one-off mistake. But he didn't do this just once, he did it repeatedly over time, hiding his actions because he knew full well you would not be ok with it. (And, this is assuming that he is now telling you the full truth, and that he wasn't trying to actually meet up with women as well.) Would you ever genuinely be able to trust him again?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:25 AM on October 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
This. He hasn't just been lying to you. He's certainly been lying to these women as well -- not just avoiding saying that he is in a relationship, but probably also saying whatever he needs to say in order to get them to send nudes.
I'd feel differently about your question of whether or not to give him a second chance if this was a one-off mistake. But he didn't do this just once, he did it repeatedly over time, hiding his actions because he knew full well you would not be ok with it. (And, this is assuming that he is now telling you the full truth, and that he wasn't trying to actually meet up with women as well.) Would you ever genuinely be able to trust him again?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:25 AM on October 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
The absolute best case take him at his word believe what he says scenario here is that he's using the pictures and words of other women as human fleshlights, almost certainly without their consent.
(Related: Have you ever had a message from a guy on a dating site or social media saying "thank you for your photo 😋 very tasty" or similar? Because I have. Just because the women "know" doesn't make it consent.)
The absolute best case scenario here is that he's being gross and disrespectful to other women who aren't you. Personally I have a higher bar for the best behavior of the men I date.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 AM on October 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
(Related: Have you ever had a message from a guy on a dating site or social media saying "thank you for your photo 😋 very tasty" or similar? Because I have. Just because the women "know" doesn't make it consent.)
The absolute best case scenario here is that he's being gross and disrespectful to other women who aren't you. Personally I have a higher bar for the best behavior of the men I date.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 AM on October 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
How would you like to find out you were being used as a "porn aid" for someone in a so-called committed relationship? Pretty shitty? Objectified?
This is what he thinks of women. It's gross. I mean, he will (maybe? probably?) grow out of it, but you are not required to be around while he does.
posted by gaspode at 6:56 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is what he thinks of women. It's gross. I mean, he will (maybe? probably?) grow out of it, but you are not required to be around while he does.
posted by gaspode at 6:56 AM on October 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I believe most people are fallible, sometimes do stupid things, and usually, deserve a second chance.
Don't use being nice and forgiving as an excuse to avoid a painful breakup.
Am I being naive if I stay with him?
Yes, but you are young and supposed to be naïve! But part of being an adult is taking care of yourself. Definitely don't get pregnant.
Does it indicate low self esteem on my part?
Not necessarily. If anything, you might think you are so great he will change his ways.
(He won't, but it would be nice to think his love for you would have that affect.)
How do I feel comfortable again knowing that even if he wasn't out meeting other women, he thought it was okay to be on a dating site while in a relationship with me?
You don't have to feel comfortable with this. Keep in mind that your relationship with him has been a lie, and he was comfortable with that.
How do I decide whether to give him another chance?
Decide you are a person who deserves trust and dignity in a relationship. Date other people. His attitudes towards sex and women are not good.
posted by rhonzo at 7:03 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
Don't use being nice and forgiving as an excuse to avoid a painful breakup.
Am I being naive if I stay with him?
Yes, but you are young and supposed to be naïve! But part of being an adult is taking care of yourself. Definitely don't get pregnant.
Does it indicate low self esteem on my part?
Not necessarily. If anything, you might think you are so great he will change his ways.
(He won't, but it would be nice to think his love for you would have that affect.)
How do I feel comfortable again knowing that even if he wasn't out meeting other women, he thought it was okay to be on a dating site while in a relationship with me?
You don't have to feel comfortable with this. Keep in mind that your relationship with him has been a lie, and he was comfortable with that.
How do I decide whether to give him another chance?
Decide you are a person who deserves trust and dignity in a relationship. Date other people. His attitudes towards sex and women are not good.
posted by rhonzo at 7:03 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
> I believe most people are fallible, sometimes do stupid things, and usually, deserve a second chance.
Just because people in general deserve a second chance (I agree!) doesn’t mean it has to be from you. His second chance is dating someone else and not doing this to them. Second chances don’t always come from the same place as the first chance. And given his age? I bet he did this to the girlfriend before you, too. I bet this already is his second chance and you just don’t know about it.
posted by Bottlecap at 7:14 AM on October 10, 2021 [23 favorites]
Just because people in general deserve a second chance (I agree!) doesn’t mean it has to be from you. His second chance is dating someone else and not doing this to them. Second chances don’t always come from the same place as the first chance. And given his age? I bet he did this to the girlfriend before you, too. I bet this already is his second chance and you just don’t know about it.
posted by Bottlecap at 7:14 AM on October 10, 2021 [23 favorites]
He’s not horrified he did it, he’s horrified you found out. He knew it was wrong which is why he hid it. And worst of all, he used those women without their permission. Between you and them, every example of his interaction with women involves him lying to them and treating them badly. I hope he learns from this but as it’s already been mentioned, not from you. Throw the whole man out. I know that kind of guy and I was sick of being the practice girl they treated badly to learn on before they figured out how to treat women well. A decent guy doesn’t need to be taught, go and find him.
posted by Jubey at 7:26 AM on October 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 7:26 AM on October 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
I like how nouvelle-personne spelled out what is likely going on. Your bf is using women on Tinder who haven't consented to being used that way. Instead of "being ethical" and paying actual sex workers for their photos and sexy chats, he's trying to get it for free on Tinder, or he's paying Tinder for it. Gross, just gross. I put "being ethical" in scare quotes because he's NOT being ethical in your relationship, i.e. this was not something you discussed in terms of what's ok/not ok.
I would dump his a**. He's shown who he is. Yes it hurts. This wasn't a "mistake" - these were deliberate actions that he knew were wrong and hid from you AND he's charging it to his credit card. He thought he wouldn't get caught, which also shows arrogance. Don't waste your precious time and energy being this guy's rehab centre for how to be a better person and bf.
posted by foxjacket at 7:51 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I would dump his a**. He's shown who he is. Yes it hurts. This wasn't a "mistake" - these were deliberate actions that he knew were wrong and hid from you AND he's charging it to his credit card. He thought he wouldn't get caught, which also shows arrogance. Don't waste your precious time and energy being this guy's rehab centre for how to be a better person and bf.
posted by foxjacket at 7:51 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
The answers above are sooooo good. I'll just add that, as scary and awful as a breakup can be, I would consider it to be an essential life skill. I'm a good bit older, and it has saved my bacon knowing deep in my bones that I can survive a breakup , and that there is a thriving life on the other side, whether that's with someone else or solo. Maybe that's something you can lean into if you do decide to break up with him - you are giving yourself an excellent gift that will serve you well throughout your life, no matter what your relationship circumstances end up being. Sending you lots of good wishes as you navigate this.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 8:21 AM on October 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by bighappyhairydog at 8:21 AM on October 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
I have a lot of dating history and I can tell you this: I have never been in a relationship that worked when this sort of behavior surfaced. When I say "this sort of behavior" I mean a deliberate and sustained violation of trust / boundaries. He knew it wasn't OK, did it anyway, etc.
And, as others have pointed out, this behavior is shitty to other people too. Assuming he's telling the truth, he's treating other people as fodder for his fantasies and they haven't consented to that.
The good news, both players here are in their early 20s. You have a lot of time to find new partners. He has a lot of growing to do and time to do it. Getting dumped on his ass, quickly, cleanly, decisively, is a learning opportunity: Do not do this to future partners. Perhaps he'll learn it was wrong, if nothing else he'll learn it isn't tolerated.
posted by jzb at 8:23 AM on October 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
And, as others have pointed out, this behavior is shitty to other people too. Assuming he's telling the truth, he's treating other people as fodder for his fantasies and they haven't consented to that.
The good news, both players here are in their early 20s. You have a lot of time to find new partners. He has a lot of growing to do and time to do it. Getting dumped on his ass, quickly, cleanly, decisively, is a learning opportunity: Do not do this to future partners. Perhaps he'll learn it was wrong, if nothing else he'll learn it isn't tolerated.
posted by jzb at 8:23 AM on October 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
What a great opportunity this person has given you. In the way you respond - either by choosing to stay with him, or by choosing to breaking up with him, you'll get to tell yourself, indelibly, one of two things:
I'm the type of person who deserves this type of behavior from my partner.
or
I'm the type of person who deserves better than this type of behavior from my partner.
You have a lot of life, people, and experiences ahead of you. That's really exciting. But the decisions you make now - about what you deserve, what you expect from a partner, from love, from life - determine what you're actually going to get down the line, and what kind of life you're going to have.
posted by MaddyRex at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm the type of person who deserves this type of behavior from my partner.
or
I'm the type of person who deserves better than this type of behavior from my partner.
You have a lot of life, people, and experiences ahead of you. That's really exciting. But the decisions you make now - about what you deserve, what you expect from a partner, from love, from life - determine what you're actually going to get down the line, and what kind of life you're going to have.
posted by MaddyRex at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
Leaving and staying are both skills. The more you practice rationalizing your way into staying in a shitty relationship, the better you get at it. I have three and a half decades on you. If I could go back in time, the single most important thing I could do in order to change the trajectory of my life would be to get good at leaving unsatisfactory relationships.
posted by HotToddy at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2021 [34 favorites]
I'm going to address a slightly different angle here than a lot of the other answers, which have covered important ground about objectification and trust and offer you some food for thought for yourself first and then maybe a conversation with him if you decide that helping him out is labor you want to be doing here: be wary of getting into potentially long sexual relationships with people who require somebody else's labor to exist as sexual beings.
That's a convoluted sentence, I know, meant to cover a spectrum of situations. I just feel like as people age into full sexual maturity it should be a goal to become good, thoughtful, mindful, creative, caring, deeply present sexual partners and not just nut as hard as possible with the least amount of effort or care for anyone else involved. And I think that includes treating one's solo sexual time as a component of that sexual existence with those goals still in mind. I don't personally believe you can be one way with a partner and another way alone, either - some people do use their alone time to explore different things, but a thoughtful person is going to do that a lot differently than someone who's going to make choices they know are a threat to their relationship on multiple levels.
I just feel like if you're with someone who does this, someone who thinks "porn" is the opposite of partnered relationship sex to the point that this behavior is somehow a reasonable explanation, someone who gets off on objectification, you'll end up being the chairperson of your relationship sex life, always responsible for providing whatever novelty or stimulation is desired, always at fault when he gets bored or you can't/won't provide the services he desires at any given moment because he doesn't have imagination, just cravings. A long relationship is full of life events that include illness, injury, stress and mental health issues, caretaking for children or/and parents, work travel, and just general infringements on your time to the point that it takes two people making real actual good faith efforts to keep it going, with each one willing to sometimes take on more of the effort than the other.
Y'all are very young, not done with puberty yet, not fully-formed in the frontal cortex yet. Statistically this is not likely going to be your long-haul relationship. You could end it now with probably a lower chance of regretting leaving than later regretting staying and finding out this is actually who he's gonna choose to be (especially if it turns out that this is actually his tactic to find someone hotter, which is a thing some young men believe they need to prioritize). The problem, if you stay, is that you will have stayed. It will always be there in the relationship that he made that choice and you decided to make it be okay. Some people will be actually horrified by their own behavior and it will make them better people - most people definitely step in some shit in their early relationships, that's how you learn sometimes - but beware that sometimes they become better people in the next relationship, one that's not already got dents in it.
My number one question is whether, without showing him this AskMe, he could on his own list any of the red flags raised here. Has he had any kind of conversation with you in which he shows any emotional intelligence about objectification, impulse control, hoping not to get caught versus choosing not to do stuff to get caught doing, being a skillful mindful partner to you/himself, feelings about monogamy, anything? Or is he just sorry he got caught and will try harder to not get caught next time and is definitely not going to go read a book on human sexual development or work on his integrity muscles or anything?
posted by Lyn Never at 12:18 PM on October 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
That's a convoluted sentence, I know, meant to cover a spectrum of situations. I just feel like as people age into full sexual maturity it should be a goal to become good, thoughtful, mindful, creative, caring, deeply present sexual partners and not just nut as hard as possible with the least amount of effort or care for anyone else involved. And I think that includes treating one's solo sexual time as a component of that sexual existence with those goals still in mind. I don't personally believe you can be one way with a partner and another way alone, either - some people do use their alone time to explore different things, but a thoughtful person is going to do that a lot differently than someone who's going to make choices they know are a threat to their relationship on multiple levels.
I just feel like if you're with someone who does this, someone who thinks "porn" is the opposite of partnered relationship sex to the point that this behavior is somehow a reasonable explanation, someone who gets off on objectification, you'll end up being the chairperson of your relationship sex life, always responsible for providing whatever novelty or stimulation is desired, always at fault when he gets bored or you can't/won't provide the services he desires at any given moment because he doesn't have imagination, just cravings. A long relationship is full of life events that include illness, injury, stress and mental health issues, caretaking for children or/and parents, work travel, and just general infringements on your time to the point that it takes two people making real actual good faith efforts to keep it going, with each one willing to sometimes take on more of the effort than the other.
Y'all are very young, not done with puberty yet, not fully-formed in the frontal cortex yet. Statistically this is not likely going to be your long-haul relationship. You could end it now with probably a lower chance of regretting leaving than later regretting staying and finding out this is actually who he's gonna choose to be (especially if it turns out that this is actually his tactic to find someone hotter, which is a thing some young men believe they need to prioritize). The problem, if you stay, is that you will have stayed. It will always be there in the relationship that he made that choice and you decided to make it be okay. Some people will be actually horrified by their own behavior and it will make them better people - most people definitely step in some shit in their early relationships, that's how you learn sometimes - but beware that sometimes they become better people in the next relationship, one that's not already got dents in it.
My number one question is whether, without showing him this AskMe, he could on his own list any of the red flags raised here. Has he had any kind of conversation with you in which he shows any emotional intelligence about objectification, impulse control, hoping not to get caught versus choosing not to do stuff to get caught doing, being a skillful mindful partner to you/himself, feelings about monogamy, anything? Or is he just sorry he got caught and will try harder to not get caught next time and is definitely not going to go read a book on human sexual development or work on his integrity muscles or anything?
posted by Lyn Never at 12:18 PM on October 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
he was using tinder 100% as a 'porn' aid, and had no intention of ever meeting any women in person and no intention whatsoever of cheating on me
YMMV but if this were my partner using Tinder in that way, that falls into our definition of cheating. And it might not fall into yours which is okay, but it's worth understanding that for some people, that line already has been crossed. And my partner is a pornography consumer. I know because we talk about it (and also because most people are). And what he uses as a porn aid is... porn. That is images and videos that are created more or less for the purposes of being porn. Using other living and breathing people as if they were pornography, as if those contexts were the same is, to my mind, not cool.
And I will also agree with what people above have been saying: you're young and these things do happen, especially with relationships between young people. At the same time, that doesn't mean that not learning from them or changing your behavior if you've determined that you've been doing something not-okay with your partner is okay. Your friend and her boyfriend need a serious talk about boundaries and I don't think it would be a lot to ask that if this is not okay with your friend, that she ask her boyfriend to delete the Tinder app and have a conversation specifically about boundaries and what it means within the context of their relationship.
Because even monogamous couples differ in when they think a line has been crossed (flirting, kissing, touching, texting, intercourse, something else) and anything can be okay as long as both partners basically agree. But what you don't want is some sort of situation where she has a boundary, he is grudgingly always almost-crossing it and then they break up after a long time and she is always thinking "You know I saw the red flags way back when"
posted by jessamyn at 12:51 PM on October 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
YMMV but if this were my partner using Tinder in that way, that falls into our definition of cheating. And it might not fall into yours which is okay, but it's worth understanding that for some people, that line already has been crossed. And my partner is a pornography consumer. I know because we talk about it (and also because most people are). And what he uses as a porn aid is... porn. That is images and videos that are created more or less for the purposes of being porn. Using other living and breathing people as if they were pornography, as if those contexts were the same is, to my mind, not cool.
And I will also agree with what people above have been saying: you're young and these things do happen, especially with relationships between young people. At the same time, that doesn't mean that not learning from them or changing your behavior if you've determined that you've been doing something not-okay with your partner is okay. Your friend and her boyfriend need a serious talk about boundaries and I don't think it would be a lot to ask that if this is not okay with your friend, that she ask her boyfriend to delete the Tinder app and have a conversation specifically about boundaries and what it means within the context of their relationship.
Because even monogamous couples differ in when they think a line has been crossed (flirting, kissing, touching, texting, intercourse, something else) and anything can be okay as long as both partners basically agree. But what you don't want is some sort of situation where she has a boundary, he is grudgingly always almost-crossing it and then they break up after a long time and she is always thinking "You know I saw the red flags way back when"
posted by jessamyn at 12:51 PM on October 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
I believe people check their partner’s phones to validate a feeling or inkling or disturbance they already had, but felt too unsure of their gut to stake a position. Your gut already told you something was not right. I’ve learnt the hard way that those gut feelings when I was young in relationships, was right. Even wanting to check up on a partner by violating their privacy now sets me thinking more about what my gut thinks it’s looking for.
I am with Lyn Never: don’t *you* do the emotional labour of positing the problem in the terms outlined above (using others as means when they haven’t consented to being means) but compose yourself enough to observe. Ask different questions of yourself - you’ve done the labour required by saying this boundary being crossed does not work at all for you, and the behaviour has destabilised the relationship. *His* work is to show he knows it’s wrong, and his steps out of the behaviour. Maybe this won’t be with you, and I think it should not be you, but blokes not showing respect for women’s profiles on dating sites, which are not wank fodder, is basic garden variety ubiquitous misogyny.
(Also, hard agree with Nouvelle Personae - there’s a fuckton of work and deceit in ‘using tinder for porn’ rather than using actual porn)
posted by honey-barbara at 5:24 PM on October 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am with Lyn Never: don’t *you* do the emotional labour of positing the problem in the terms outlined above (using others as means when they haven’t consented to being means) but compose yourself enough to observe. Ask different questions of yourself - you’ve done the labour required by saying this boundary being crossed does not work at all for you, and the behaviour has destabilised the relationship. *His* work is to show he knows it’s wrong, and his steps out of the behaviour. Maybe this won’t be with you, and I think it should not be you, but blokes not showing respect for women’s profiles on dating sites, which are not wank fodder, is basic garden variety ubiquitous misogyny.
(Also, hard agree with Nouvelle Personae - there’s a fuckton of work and deceit in ‘using tinder for porn’ rather than using actual porn)
posted by honey-barbara at 5:24 PM on October 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Normally I think mefi is way too quick to advise people to breakup, but in this case this is a huge, no-question DTMFA, and I'm shocked to see people saying otherwise.
He's probably lying--who in the world uses tinder as a porn aid? That's the most bizarre excuse I've ever heard, and even if it is true it's predatory and gross. YES, it is naive to stay with this person. It's okay to be naive--I've been there! I ended up getting really, really hurt in the end.
Break up with him then run from this relationship. I am 99% sure he is lying to you. Save your heart before he breaks it even more.
posted by Amy93 at 10:16 AM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
He's probably lying--who in the world uses tinder as a porn aid? That's the most bizarre excuse I've ever heard, and even if it is true it's predatory and gross. YES, it is naive to stay with this person. It's okay to be naive--I've been there! I ended up getting really, really hurt in the end.
Break up with him then run from this relationship. I am 99% sure he is lying to you. Save your heart before he breaks it even more.
posted by Amy93 at 10:16 AM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
he only stops doing this when he's guilty and is upset he got caught. please dump this guy, it is only a matter of time before you actually get cheated on, and in fact you may have already been cheated on already and just don't know it because he hid his tracks well enough. gross, unsafe and untrustworthy behavior, your life will be better without him in it.
posted by zdravo at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by zdravo at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone! My friend was so touched and impressed with the quality of the answers here and the wisdom, time, and thoughtfulness you all put into helping a stranger.
posted by fourpotatoes at 8:31 AM on October 17, 2021
posted by fourpotatoes at 8:31 AM on October 17, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 2:59 AM on October 10, 2021 [71 favorites]