Am I the asshole in this relationship?
December 16, 2014 11:25 PM   Subscribe

I want an honest opinion on whether what I am upto could be considered cheating. It's a long read but I want to find out if I am wrong in what I am doing since I suspect my actions are hurting a woman emotionally. Apologies for the wall of text that is about to hit you but I want to put in as much detail as possible.

I am in an on-again, off-again relationship with a close friend of mine. We are both early 30s, have stable, well paying jobs and are on paper a compatible couple.
She has been my friend for 8 years now and we first discussed the possibility of marriage 4 years ago. I walked out of it due to some issues with my family that I couldn't deal with. She felt she was wronged because by that point she was deeply emotionally invested in me. ( We were getting serious for over a few months at that point). It was clear that I wasn't as invested in the relationship. My exact words then as they are now " I am not in love with you but like and respect you as a person enough to be with you".
She left town after that. We occasionally got back together and got physically intimate a few times. I was explicit about not knowing what I want to do or where I want the relationship to go.
She laid it down that she didn't want to pursue anything further unless I knew what I wanted. I asked for some time. to figure things out. I Took more time than what was agreed upon but went back to her asking to get together. She wanted me to lay out the expectations and what the relationship was going to be like. I only knew I wanted her in my life but didn't give her the well thought out future that she was looking for. At every juncture, I was clear that I am incapable of love and romance but I fully understand duty and loyalty between partners and that's all I was willing to promise. We decided we would be better off as friends since she thought I wasn't taking it as seriously as I should. We again got together despite that and figured we would never be able to be platonic.

Fast forward it to mid year 2014. I was working in her town for a few months and we got together again. Due to unrelated reasons, I was pursuing a job in her town and my intention was to get a job and plan a life together after I settle in. She had set a timeline for herself to start dating and find someone for herself. I wasn't sure about my future so I didn't promise her anything.
This is where the murky part begins. We were never together for more than a month each time we got together and in between the breaks, I had created an online profile and would check things out from time to time. I am a South Asian average looking male and the online dating success rate for our kind is abysmal. Online dating was equal parts fantasy and academic curiosity for me. I had zero success with that but what started as a dating profile became nothing but entertainment to me where I would just check out good looking women and get out. I would disable my account for long periods of time and go back to it when particularly bored. I still think it was a harmless vice since I was neither messaging/bothering anyone. Since she had set herself a timeline, she ran into my profile on one of those websites and all hell broke loose. She accused me of ruining her life, of never being able to trust me ever and that I was stringing her along. I readily admit I never committed to her but in my defense, she wasn't ready when I was willing to commit and I wasn't going to propose her until I had a concrete plan. She said she felt she had been cheated and asked me to never talk to her again.
I had been guilt ridden for the past few months. Circumstances at her work changed and she came over to my town for work. I went over and talked to her since she was trying to avoid me at parties. I felt there was no reason for this awkwardness. All I wanted was to make it not so awkward but now she thinks I want to get back together. I have been talking to this other girl (only for a week now and it's casual -professional, hobby related conversation so far but I am interested in her). I only started talking to this girl because I was under the clear impression that my thing was over.

It must be clear at this point that I am not a sentimental or overly attached person. I have been clear about it. She told me a few times before that I don't mean as much to her now as I used to before and I believed her. It is clear that I have hurt her without intending to and I don't know if we should get back together. I will probably end up slipping up somewhere and fail to meet her expectations and the drama of it all wears me down. Despite all this, I think we can be great partners if she lets me be the old dog that cannot learn new tricks. I cannot be the doting romantic that she likes me to be but I am sure I can be a loyal partner otherwise. I feel uncomfortable being something I am not and I think we have enough history for me not to try and act like I am going to change or be better.


Was what I did (having an online profile to check out women) cheating?
Is what I am doing now cheating? (Talking to another woman with intent while the friend in question thinks I am looking to get back together)
Should I get back with her despite all the drama?? She is a better human being than me but I am the more grounded, get-things-done, get-back-to-reality sort of guy. We are an intellectual match and have many common interests and tastes. Everyone that knows us openly wonders why we're not together(None of our friends know about our affairs and we agreed we would only make it public if it was serious). My attraction to her waxes and wanes depending on how emotionally stable she is. I cannot handle her accusing me of ruining her life.
Is anything I mentioned here considered abuse or misuse of privilege? I never dreamed I would be capable of abusing another human being- let alone a woman and I will seek professional help to make this right. I admit to doing some things wrong but I don't know if it was beyond acceptable behavior.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (54 answers total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
You're not into this woman. It's okay that you're not into her.

Stop having sex with her. Break it off. Let her go. Stop trying to be her friend, because it seems like you're trying to be her have-sex-sometimes friend, which is not what she's looking for. You're chatting up other women instead of being in a relationship with her.

Browsing dating websites, even idly and without "intent" is still grounds for ending a relationship.

You are obviously not interested, it's time both of you saw that.
posted by billybunny at 11:36 PM on December 16, 2014 [43 favorites]


You obviously should not get back together. You don't love her and if you did, you wouldn't have waffled so much and been unable to commit. You entered into a relationship with her despite knowing you weren't meeting her needs. You really should've walked away a long time ago. Now you say you feel like you were unintentionally hurting her, but you know damn well you won't give her what she needs or commit to her going forward, so if you do get back with her, you will be intentionally unintentionally hurting her. Don't do that.

Was looking at other profiles cheating? Based on your re-telling of events, it's hard to even know since you two were on-and-off and your profile was on-and-off. Cheating or not, it was definitely a big ol' red flag that you weren't seriously into this girl or emotionally invested in your relationship with her.

Just walk away and stop trying to to connect with her. If you feel guilty that things didn't work out, feel it without involving her. If she avoids you, let her. Do not go seek her out and pull her back into your life, like you did before. Just stop. Let her move on with her life.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:38 PM on December 16, 2014 [12 favorites]


Words like, "I like you, but not enough to commit to you," are poison.

You poisoned her feelings for you long long ago.

You should never ever have continued sleeping with her.

I.... Damn.

Dude. This is a cruel story. 8 years she tried AND tried to keep her self respect during the process.

Please, set her free. Tell her you have no depth of emotion and never ever will. This is the truth.
posted by jbenben at 11:45 PM on December 16, 2014 [107 favorites]


No, you should not get back together.

You sound like you want to have a relationship with her that's on your terms. The best relationships have compromise.

I don't see anything in your question that suggests she's not mentally stable. She's frustrated because you two keep trying to make a terrible relationship work. Just end it.
posted by fireandthud at 11:46 PM on December 16, 2014 [11 favorites]


"I am not in love with you but like and respect you as a person enough to be with you"

At every juncture, I was clear that I am incapable of love and romance but I fully understand duty and loyalty between partners and that's all I was willing to promise.

My attraction to her waxes and wanes depending on how emotionally stable she is.

This is horrible.

Let her go.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 11:48 PM on December 16, 2014 [73 favorites]


It must be clear at this point that I am not a sentimental or overly attached person.

Umm, no kidding.

What you're doing is called hedging one's bets. Bluntly put, you're not confident you have much currency in the dating market, so you're keeping this woman in reserve. That's what it is when you're seeing someone but keeping your online dating profile active.

Your behaviour is not kind or honourable. You know you have the upper hand with her, and you're exploiting that. Stop it. Cut the whole thing off.
posted by Salamander at 11:51 PM on December 16, 2014 [124 favorites]


Oops. I read but glossed over this point:

"What you're doing is called hedging one's bets. Bluntly put, you're not confident you have much currency in the dating market, so you're keeping this woman in reserve. That's what it is when you're seeing someone but keeping your online dating profile active. "


In light of this...Emphasis mine...

YES. It is cheating.
posted by jbenben at 11:57 PM on December 16, 2014 [10 favorites]


Since you asked, yes, you are an asshole in this relationship.

Step 1: Let her go. She needs to heal from 8 years worth of being jerked around.

Step 2: Acknowledge to yourself just how much you jerked her around. Prefacing any involvement with "I am never going to love you" does not excuse your behavior.

Step 3: Go to therapy. I don't know if it's insecurity that's making you act like this, but you should probably have that looked at.
posted by lydhre at 12:10 AM on December 17, 2014 [21 favorites]


" I cannot be the doting romantic that she likes me to be but I am sure I can be a loyal partner otherwise."

You two may not be as compatible as you think you are. There are a lot of women who prefer a guy who is not romantic but rather have the traits that you have to offer. I happen to be one of those women myself. Before I found my current partner I dated my fair share of "romantic" artsy guys who showered me with flowers and wrote songs and poetry for me. I know a lot of people go gaga over that stuff, me...my thoughts during those moments were: A song? What the hell am I supposed to do with a stupid song? But you know...I'd smile and say thank you. But they would sometimes get angry that I didn't fall head over heels for their gifts. When I finally met Mr. Right he was also known by another name by his colleagues and friends: "The Stiff". He never drank alcohol, never danced, barked orders at his employees, rarely laughed and never made jokes, Never bought me flowers or candy or wrote me poetry.... instead when I happened to mention I had trouble with my ex-boss, he called a lawyer and had the lawyer deal with my ex-boss. When my apartment was falling apart he said: You deserve better than this dump. And he arranged for a friend of his to give me a deal on an apartment that was 10X nicer. When I needed to stay up late to do paperwork he offered to help me. This was how he showed his love for me and my heart melted into a million gooey pieces in a way that none of the romantic guys ever managed. We're together now and have been for years. He too feels most loved when I go out of my way to visit him at his office and help him out there (and when I tell him he's not getting as bald as he thinks he is). He smiles more often now too. The point is- our love natures are very compatible. You should find someone who's love nature is compatible to yours and your friend deserves the same for herself. From reading your post all I see are two people hoping the other person will change somehow.
posted by rancher at 12:25 AM on December 17, 2014 [52 favorites]


You were honest about yourself and what you're capable of. She repeatedly chose to keep sleeping with you.

The online profile wasn't cheating, as she was clearly looking also.

You two should have broken up long ago. Both of you chose not to and both share blame the messed up dynamic that evolved.

Her anger at your profile is an understandable emotional reaction to the roller coaster you two have been on. You aren't the asshole, both of you repeatedly made mistakes.

Forgive her and forgive yourself. Give her space and move on yourself
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:29 AM on December 17, 2014 [12 favorites]


Clinging to an emotional and physical relationship with someone who you do not love and do not see a future with while actively seeking someone else is not cheating, but it is using that person, and it isn't right.

You haven't asked your friend to get back together, so what you're doing now is not cheating regardless of what she thinks your current intentions are, but if you ever find yourself wondering if you should do something because you know it would hurt a person you're in a romantic relationship with, you either need to be straight with that person, break it off, or not do that thing. Doing things behind your FWB/significant other/whatever's back that you know would hurt them is not part of a respectful and caring relationship. Either be honest (and I know you think you are being blunt by saying "I can't love you the way you want me to", but you need to be very explicitly honest about whether you are dating/looking for other people since this woman clearly did not understand that to be part of your deal in the past).

I see a lot of contradictions in what you say - you say you think you could be a 'loyal partner' to her right now, but yet you still are talking about having her as a placeholder until you find someone else better. You say she 'wasn't ready to commit when you were willing' but you never describe a situation in which you were willing to commit, only times you have been willing to get back together with her on the condition that she have zero expectations about your future and your behavior towards her. No wonder you are thinking about trying to resurrect this relationship - she lets you do whatever you want with no repercussions, always comes crawling back even when you hurt her, there's very little downside in it for you - since she doesn't seem to be looking out for her own wellbeing, I really hope you will.... sorry if this appears to be really tough love, I do think that she has made multiple mistakes as well, but you are the one asking.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:51 AM on December 17, 2014 [24 favorites]


Your behavior in this whole situation is so really inexcusable. You try to place all the blaeme on this woman with statements asserting your honesty about your commitment level to her and the relationship. As if by somehow proclaiming these truths you wash your hands of having to make any responsible decisions about what those truths mean in the context of your relationship. You have given her the dirty work to do and for someone who may be in love with you it is a tremendously selfish and unkind thing to ask of them when you have the capability of doing yourself what really ought to be done.

I get why you are stringing her along (and yes you are even though I don't think you believe you are). I really do. You clearly are not confident in your ability to find love and fulfillment in a relationship elsewhere. It sounds like you are afraid of being alone in the long term and so you have been treating her as your safety net. You need to stop.

Be a better person and break things off with her for good. She obviously cannot see with the clarity (as is so often the case in relationships) you have about where this relationship isn't going. It would be a kindness after 8 long years of waffling.

Trust that there is someone you are better suited for out there and go find her.
posted by teamnap at 1:03 AM on December 17, 2014 [20 favorites]


You're both adults who both need to stop and have a nice long think about your relationship. If you don't want what she's offering you, then stop taking it from her. But it's also on her to stop attempting to take from you something that you've explicitly said you can't give her.

I think what you should do now is leave her alone, like she's explicitly asked you to do, and find someone else that you're compatible with. If you're not talking to someone, then there can be no awkwardness. That's the point of two people not talking.
posted by Solomon at 1:29 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


It doesn't matter if what you did was considered cheating. The fact is you've been stringing her along from the very beginning. Both of you should just walk away.
posted by signondiego at 1:50 AM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


You've really seemed to go out of your way to hurt her in ways you're not even seeming to realize. You push her away, pull her back, then hang this carrot of "Maybe" to her all the while knowing in the back of your head that you don't love her, not really. Not the way she has made it clear she needs.

Of course she has a right to be upset, I would be, too. You've wasted this woman's time.

Have you at all thought about her feelings? Is that something that you can pick up on? Because this smacks to me of sociopathic behavior.

Break it off with her if she'll even talk with you. Apologize. Then never speak with her again. That would be a kindness to her where you've showed her none before.
posted by inturnaround at 2:03 AM on December 17, 2014 [5 favorites]


You have kept this woman at such an arm's reach that despite dating her on and off for years on end, you describe your relationship as "affairs" that none of your mutual friends even are aware of. That is a really freaking severe lack of commitment well beyond the standard issue indefinitely waffling about marriage boyfriend.

Now, you are not the only responsible party here, because she should have stopped this cycle long ago for her own good. You have allowed her to do something very harmful to her happiness, but that doesn't mean you have ruined her life, because she has agency and you haven't been lying to her. She could have made better decisions (just like you). At the very least she could have let all these friends know about this situation so that they could start trying to convince you guys to stop, instead of doing the whole "let's not tell until we're serious (which will apparently be never)" quagmire.

I imagine seeing your profile on that website, for one reason or another, might have gotten through whatever delusions she may have had that you would some day be in a real relationship with her. So the is-it-or-isn't-it lawyering about whether what you did was actually cheating is a red herring, because what she is expressing is that her heart is broken. She now understands how low her worth is to you and that she's just the backup if nothing better comes along. This devastation can't be undone if one points out that technically it wasn't cheating.

Despite all this, I think we can be great partners if she lets me be the old dog that cannot learn new tricks. I cannot be the doting romantic that she likes me to be but I am sure I can be a loyal partner otherwise. I feel uncomfortable being something I am not and I think we have enough history for me not to try and act like I am going to change or be better.

You seem to think that if she just wouldn't make "drama" that you could continue doing this with her, doing this to her, forever. This is very self centered and more than a little cruel. It's also delusional on your part--what, exactly, do you think about this situation is "great" or "loyal" or even "partner" to her? Just like you are apparently incapable of supporting and committing to her in a loving, stable relationship, she will be incapable of eradicating all of her feelings about how utterly miserable that makes her.

Please support her attempts to break off contact with you, instead of (unwittingly or not) drawing her back into a situation that satisfies neither of you. It will be easier for you to hold the line on this and make it happen, because you are the one who isn't "overly attached". You don't have to flog yourself about being abusive or whatever. Just go and sin no more. You will stop having to deal with her erupting unhappinesses and she will hopefully be able to finally focus on finding a partner who can give her what she needs.
posted by foxfirefey at 3:20 AM on December 17, 2014 [23 favorites]


I am sure I can be a loyal partner

No, you can't be a loyal partner if you can't stop checking OK Cupid and chatting up girls at work that you're interested in, after one week, as opposed to being ambivalent at best and cruel at worst to a "good friend" of 8 years. If I had a "friend" with benefits treat me like this for eight years, I'd be emotionally unstable, too.

I cannot handle her accusing me of ruining her life.

THEN STOP BEING THE ASSHOLE THAT'S RUINING HER LIFE. And also, let her go and get far far away from her, so she can find someone who treats her with at least the minimum respect she deserves as a person.
posted by mibo at 3:39 AM on December 17, 2014 [27 favorites]


A truly heartless person would never have bothered to ask this question let alone take the time it took to go into detail about it. I don't think that just because someone isn't the lovey-dovey type that that automatically makes him a sociopath.

From many of your statements I gather that you are probably someone with -what my friends into astrology might call "a dude with heavy Capricorn" (I don't believe in astrology, but you get the gist). You believe in stability, compatibility, loyalty and duty and responsibility to family. You believe in all these things, but the lovey dovey stuff is just fluff to you. I totally get that. My SO gets that. In the future when you're ready you would need a SO that gets that. There is no way you are ever going to make a girl who needs romance happy. And if you're the type I think you are, then telling you how emotionally hurtful you've been to this girl isn't exactly going to make it register for you just how wrong you've been. So perhaps putting it in the following terms will help put it in perspective for you.

You are being dishonorable. The only way to save your self image within this situation is to cut ties with this woman.
You are wasting time as well as valuable energy. Both hers and your own.
You have failed to see that you two are not compatible.
You haven't fulfilled your duty of friendship to this woman. Friendship is a responsibility too and the fact is you've been very irresponsible with the handling of this relationship. It's a mess.

She obviously has her own issues as well since she should've cut ties with you long ago, but that does not excuse your lack of taking charge of this situation, so it's time to do so now. End it for good and be steadfast and dedicated to this decision. No more flip flopping or floundering around no matter what. If you care for her (and I think you probably do) you will offer her no less than being that responsible individual- taking this by the horns and putting an end to it once and for all.
posted by rancher at 3:42 AM on December 17, 2014 [8 favorites]


It's not rare for the folks on Metafilter to kind of pile on somebody, sometimes really kicking them around unfairly. But in this case, a lot of people are telling you that you've been an awful jerk, and you really need to listen to that. Let this thread inspire you to make some real changes. Break up with this poor woman and talk to a therapist. I am not saying you are crazy, but you have real problems that are going to get in the way of your happiness and will almost certainly make anybody else you date unhappy too.

The people here who are suggesting you are kind of worthless aren't doing anybody a favor. Prove them wrong by taking this thread seriously and going to work on your issues. Print out your question, take it to a shrink's office, read it to them, and then sit back and really listen.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:00 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


Cheating? No. Asshole? Yes.

To be clear, I didn't think you were acting like an asshole, either, until I got to this part:

She said she felt she had been cheated and asked me to never talk to her again.... I went over and talked to her since she was trying to avoid me at parties.

Don't do that. When a former romantic partner asks you to never talk to them again, then never talk to them again. If they change their mind down the road, it's up to them to resume contact with you, never the other way around.

"Go no-contact" is frequent advice on AskMe for painful breakups, and with good reason. That's what she was trying to do, and you did not honor it.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:41 AM on December 17, 2014 [36 favorites]


You're an asshole. The woman in this scenario is a sad person who is willing to take whatever crumbs you deign to give her. Just because someone is a sad, lonely and lacking in self-esteem, it's not a license for you to use her. Throughout this entire post you talk about how you've been honest, BUT, how you gave her some hope that you two might be together. It's horrible.

Gambling is addictive and enjoyable precisely because it's unpredictable. By sometimes showing love, and other times not, and in ways that can't be predicted, this woman became addicted to you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you didn't do it intentionally. But now you're on notice.

If you were being REALLY honest, you would have said, "I don't love you, and I don't want to marry you. I'm not able to get the kind of woman I can really love and respect, so you'll do for now. I do like sex. But as soon as someone better comes along, I'll drop you like a hot potato."

If you want to be a mench, a good person, be honest. "Sally, I'm sorry. I don't love you and while I enjoy our time together, I don't want to be with you in a romantic relationship. You were right, it is much better if we go no contact so that we can both move on with our lives. I have been stringing you along, I didn't mean to, but that's what's happened. You have every right to be angry with me."

Then don't call her, don't speak with her and don't intrude on her life.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:30 AM on December 17, 2014 [19 favorites]


THEN STOP BEING THE ASSHOLE THAT'S RUINING HER LIFE.

OP, the woman you were dating is a grown woman, capable of making her own choices. She needs to take responsibility for her own actions and stop blaming you when she repeatedly and consistently chose to be with you, despite clear signs that you were not a good match for her.

Absolve yourself of blame on this, while striving to do better in the future. Specifically, she's now said she doesn't want to see you. So leave her alone, cut ties. To repeatedly ignore her wishes and pursue her will make you an asshole. Cut it out.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on December 17, 2014 [8 favorites]


Seconding Ursula Hitler. By coming here and asking the question, it may be that you're showing some real willingness to change.

Only you can know that for sure, though, and whether you actually can change or not is an unknown. Therapy, a steady spiritual practice, a spiritual guide who's unafraid to be honest with you, all are helpful in this pursuit.

I certainly hope you take the advice given above to break it off with this woman permanently and as soon as possible without blaming her in the slightest. Take responsibility for your actions.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:40 AM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


You're an asshole. It's not okay to tell your partner you're going to hurt them, and then hurt them. You're not absolved of hurting them because you warned them.

You should apologize to this woman and cut things off with her. The end.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:53 AM on December 17, 2014 [27 favorites]


I'll try not to repeat the points made above, but I wanted to highlight your comments such as "It was clear that I wasn't as invested in the relationship." and "I was explicit about not knowing what I want to do or where I want the relationship to go." and "I have been clear about it."

You are both imperfect, messy, emotional people - like all of us when we navigate personal relationships, especially physically and emotionally intimate ones.

But you seem to be treating it like a corporate merger. "Your honor, the contract clearly pointed out that it was not binding for the purposes enumerated in subsections 203(b) and 408(f)."

It's not just about your words, though they matter: it's about your actions. You knew (or would have known if you had thought about it for more than 5 seconds) what she wanted and how she would interpret those actions, despite your disclaimers.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:05 AM on December 17, 2014 [11 favorites]


First off, I agree with everyone who says you should let her go. But I also want to address her avoiding you. If she's avoiding you, you need to respect her wishes and leave her alone. You are not entitled to your attention, especially if she is communicating that she is unwilling to give it.

All I wanted was to make it not so awkward

You can never make it not awkward if she isn't feeling that way, and the more you try the more awkward it'll be.

but now she thinks I want to get back together.

But from what you said just a bit later, you are at least considering getting back together. I don't blame her for inferring that, especially if you're ambiguous about it yourself, or at least willing to get back together as long as it's all on your terms.

Relationships are never all on one person's terms alone. Your terms and hers don't match, so let her go.
posted by Gelatin at 6:09 AM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


My attraction to her waxes and wanes depending on how emotionally stable she is.

Might it be the other way around, and that her emotional stability waxes and wanes depending on how committed to the relationship you are?

I would say the answer to both my question above, and your own question, would be "yes" in both cases.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:25 AM on December 17, 2014 [9 favorites]


This is where the murky part begins.

No, the murky part begins at the beginning, where this woman makes it clear that she wants more than you are willing to offer, and you continue to mess with her head anyway. Leave her alone. Yes, you promised that you would treat her terribly before proceeding to treat her terribly, but that isn't actually ethical regardless of your declaration.

Stop inserting yourself into her life just because you worry that having her resent you is “awkward”. What you describe as awkwardness is more likely guilt that you hate dealing with, and the way you keep trying to outsource your shame over the situation to her is gross.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:29 AM on December 17, 2014 [10 favorites]


Once I was in a relationship where I was on the receiving end of some of the sentiments you're expressing here. That relationship was easily the most toxic relationship of my life and it only lasted a year. I was so insecure and so needy, and felt so terrible about myself. When my relationship ended, and I wanted to know why it was so drawn out, he told me he felt guilty and didn't want to hurt my feelings. I can't speak to the feelings of this woman, but staying with her is unfair. Go let her find the relationship she wants.

"I am not in love with you but like and respect you as a person enough to be with you". (Also, this is sort of a soul crushing thing to say to anyone)
posted by twill at 6:45 AM on December 17, 2014 [6 favorites]


At every juncture, I was clear that I am incapable of love and romance but I fully understand duty and loyalty between partners and that's all I was willing to promise.

Romance and love are very different things, and many people who don't really do the stereotypically romantic things are still very capable of loving another person fully.

From your description here, though, it sounds correct that you are incapable of loving this person. Not just that you don't want to do the lovey-dovey stuff, but that you do not love her. She wants a relationship in which she is loved, so you should let her go.

If you find that you're incapable of loving not just this woman but anyone, I think that is a very good thing to work on with a therapist. The unemotional way in which you described this whole situation, and your seeming lack of understanding of her emotions, indicates at least the possibility that you've got some work to do to find ways of being emotionally available to others and to yourself, and a therapist can help you with that work.
posted by jaguar at 6:51 AM on December 17, 2014 [5 favorites]


Yeah, this is a terrible, destructive relationship; you treat her poorly and I have no idea why she puts up with it, but just because she does doesn't mean you have to stay in this relationship with her.

Stop seeing this woman. If not for her, for your future dating life, because women who have their shit together are NOT INTERESTED in being with someone who gets off on being involved in this kind of shitshow.
posted by mskyle at 6:53 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


You seem to be posting all this because you know what you did is very wrong, jerking around a vulnerable person. But you seem to want all of us to say you did nothing wrong because you gave her asshole disclaimers.

Stop lying to yourself. What you did was true asshole behavior, extremely hurtful and you used another human being, someone you claimed was a friend. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And leave her alone forever, for goodness sake!
posted by discopolo at 7:11 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


I admit to doing some things wrong but I don't know if it was beyond acceptable behavior.

This is weird. You know it's wrong. Doing stuff you know is wrong and trying to say it's acceptable in the same breath? Come on.

Professional help to being a better person is the best idea.
posted by discopolo at 7:17 AM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'll N'th Devil's Advocate; I didn't think you were an asshole until you tried to get back into her life when she said she didn't want to see you again and was avoiding you. It's over. Given what you've said, for her sake, she should have cut ties with you years ago. It's her fault that she didn't, and kept coming back to a man who was obviously wrong for her.

I'm surprised that there's so much fallout against you for your earlier behaviour to her. One of the oft-repeated mefi sayings is that if someone tells you something not-positive about themselves, that you should believe it. Another oft-repeated askme statement is, actions speak much more than words. Your words and actions told her what to expect; I'm not joining on the pile on over this. You were taking advantage of her, but she seemed more than willing, and towards the end was also looking elsewhere, so seemed to finally understand the casualness that you saw in it.

You'd offered loyalty; she said that wasn't enough. Then for years you two are in an off and on again relationship - you don't owe her loyalty during this time. You also don't make it clear if during these times of "being together" if you were exclusive or not. I get the feeling that neither of you two made it explicit, and that's poor form for both of you.

But when someone asks you to leave them alone, you need to leave them alone. Period. It doesn't matter if it's awkward for you.
posted by nobeagle at 7:31 AM on December 17, 2014 [12 favorites]


At every juncture, I was clear that I am incapable of love and romance but I fully understand duty and loyalty between partners and that's all I was willing to promise.

Incapable of love and romance, or just not in love with her? You're acting as if you're trying to created an arranged marriage with someone who is looking for a relationship borne out of love, not just mutual respect. If you really respected her, you would respect her feelings and desires. You've repeatedly said you're not emotional, not romantic, not in it for that. So why have statements like you're going to be "better?" A better what, a better fit?
posted by mikeh at 7:45 AM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


I am a South Asian average looking male and the online dating success rate for our kind is abysmal. Online dating was equal parts fantasy and academic curiosity for me. I had zero success with that but what started as a dating profile became nothing but entertainment to me where I would just check out good looking women and get out.

Btw, the only person you're fooling in all this is yourself, especially the academic curiosity part. You've kept the only woman willing to be with you in reserve because you think you can do better, you hope you can, but you haven't succeeded. You really do need a therapist, just so you can stop lying to yourself about who you are, your needs/wants and intentions. You are one seriously mixed up dude. I'm not surprised you're in such a mess. Go find a therapist and become a better person.

And, again, let her go. the average South Asian woman is super attractive and gets *a lot* of positive attention on dating sites from quality men. You're thwarting her chances of finding the right guy who is going to treat her the way she deserves to be treated and love her the right way. The one honorable thing you can immediately do is leave her alone and have a chance at a great life and love.
posted by discopolo at 7:46 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]



It must be clear at this point that I am not a sentimental or overly attached person.


Is this true, or is it what you would like to think? I ask because your stated question is so simple. (Is this behavior of yours considered cheating?) But your question is so long and you seem to be so concerned with the ins and out of the relationship over a long period.

In some ways, it seems like you are in fact "overly attached," in the sense that you keep coming back to this person, even after being told not to under any circumstances. It may not be this particular person you are attached to; it may be this style of relationship where you have one foot in and one foot out, yet it seems guaranteed that you will not be dumped for good. Enjoying this kind of relationship is not so unusual but I suspect you would like something to change, if only because you bothered to ask this kind of question. It might pay to consider what kind of relationship you would like in an ideal world and what you would need to do to get there. My guess is that you need to improve your own self-esteem in order to be a candidate for a serious relationship, but you may not want a serious relationship, or any relationship at all, and that's OK too.
posted by BibiRose at 7:49 AM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


This isn't cheating, but it IS asshole behavior. Let her go and move on with her life, for heaven's sake!
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:34 AM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


Despite all this, I think we can be great partners if she lets me be the old dog that cannot learn new tricks. I cannot be the doting romantic that she likes me to be but I am sure I can be a loyal partner otherwise.

So in other words you think things will be just great if she settles for being miserable and gives you everything you want, while you sacrifice nothing at all. How about you do her a favor and never, ever talk to her ever again?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:41 AM on December 17, 2014 [31 favorites]


Since she had set herself a timeline, she ran into my profile on one of those websites and all hell broke loose.

So wait, how did she see your profile? Because she was on the dating site herself?

That's a double standard. A person who is doing the same thing you are doing and then complains of what you are doing is not someone for you.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:38 AM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


The answer to "Is it OK to keep doing this thing even though my partner has told me it hurts them?" is always no. Either stop doing the thing, or end the relationship. It doesn't count as "ending the relationship" if the other person doesn't know it's ended, either.
posted by KathrynT at 9:46 AM on December 17, 2014 [7 favorites]


I was this woman almost five years ago. And I still hate myself for losing so much time to somebody who was just playing around. My boyfriend was 7 years older and, while I admit it was my fault too, I hold him more responsible for the situation. You are the one who seems to be less attached - let her go. If you can't, do like my ex did - cheat and let her know. This was something that finally broke the vicious cycle for me.

The sad part is, since I stopped all contact, he started hunting for my attention - I regularly get his calls, e-mails and FB messages, even small presents sent by mail for my birthday. Happy I can just ignore it all and it does not hurt anymore. I just get this foul taste in my mouth:(

He is, according to my knowledge, dating but has never been in a committed relationship. At the age of 42. Being intelligent and attractive.

People like you need serious therapy. Get help.
posted by tashkelis at 9:52 AM on December 17, 2014 [5 favorites]


Talk about marriage while you don't love a person in extremely manipulative and self serving in American culture. Once marriage is on the table from you, the other person is probably going to assume love is there. So yea you are an asshole here because every time to get back together / hook up with this woman, she is reading that there is love there when there is not.


Also all this dicking around for 8 years impacts her life if she wants children and needs to find someone who actually loves her and can commit to her. She probably realized this and devised her timelines (both the one for finding someone and the one for you to decide). ON your timeline she wanted to you fully accept her or fully reject her, not keep playing withthe carrot on the stick.

Let her go. never talk to her again. You never loved her and strung her along with promises so high as marriage for 8 years. You done did wrong.
posted by WeekendJen at 9:52 AM on December 17, 2014 [7 favorites]


I did similar once, albeit for a much shorter time. I thought, "I don't care and am being honest about what I want and what I cannot provide, so I can just not claim responsibility for what happens, because of these things!" I had recently gone quickly from being engaged to being single so I thought that I was protecting myself.

This only happened for a matter of months before I realized it was horribly unfair and that I was being an asshole. That is no way to treat someone even if they nod and say they understand your position. I'm not going to be all judgy, but 8 years ... wow. You're both enabling each other. Being single might be rife with uncertainty but at least you can be certain that you aren't breaking someone's heart.
posted by destructive cactus at 10:53 AM on December 17, 2014


I very carefully read your big wall of text. I have a few conclusions:

- I don't see that labeling anyone an asshole is in any way helpful.

- The dating profile thing wasn't cheating and is irrelevant anyway.

- If you've made a mistake, it's that you are relying upon words ("I was explicit about not knowing...") while she is relying upon actions. This is not uncommon.

- Given that this relationship has been going on for 8 years, I get the sense that both you and her are on the fence about marriage. Reading what you wrote, it sounds like you are in the 'dominant' position in the relationship (ie, she wants you more than you want her) - but after 8 years, it could well be that she's less into you than you think she is.

- You aren't big on the lovey-dovey stuff. Have you ever approached her with the concept of marriage as a partnership? Ie, you guys may not be floating on Cloud 9, but are you willing to commit to be there for each other in sickness and in health? To mingle your finances and buy a house together? To (maybe) have kids together - and to stay together and raise them? You mention something about this briefly, but it's not clear to me from what you wrote how she reacted. I'm aware that some people would think of this as "settling", but personally I think it's simply a more realistic view of what marriage really is.

- And ya know - if you want to be with her, it wouldn't kill you to compromise just a little bit and like, buy her flowers occasionally. It may not come 'naturally' to you, but lemme tellya: that's true for a lot of guys. It's something you can learn to do.

- After 8 years, I really think you need to 'resolve' this situation. This does not mean that you guys need to either get married or never see each other again. But after 8 years, it's time to cut the drama shit out. If that means you both agree to get married - or that you're simply Fuckbuddies For Life - or that you need to avoid each other forever - so be it. But for Christ's sake, quite fucking around and take care of it now.

- Finally: this new girl? You need NOT be involved with her until you get this other situation taken care of. Right now she looks to me like an easy "escape hatch" for you to jump at to avoid any possible pain from this 8 year thing you got going on.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:59 AM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


We all make mistakes. You have the opportunity to stop the damage right now, so you can both move forward.

My suggestion: give this woman an earnest apology for the misguided and selfish way you treated her, tell her that cutting off contact is the best thing you can do for each other, wish her well, don't entertain the thought of dating while you seek counseling, truly take the steps towards learning how to put yourself in other people's shoes so you can learn how to navigate situations like this in the future with more sensitivity and maturity.

Best of luck.
posted by tackypink at 11:20 AM on December 17, 2014


My attraction to her waxes and wanes depending on how emotionally stable she is. I cannot handle her accusing me of ruining her life.

Her accusing you of ruining her life is in fact probable her most emotionally savvy times. You are ruining her life.

She is a woman in her early thirties who started dating you in her mid twenties. You dropped the possibility of marriage on her in your late twenties. You have continued to hang the carrot of marriage over her head. She has missed out on prime marriage and childbearing years because she believed you when you said that you were interested in marriage.

You need to own up to this and stop blaming it on her supposed "instability."
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on December 17, 2014 [9 favorites]


I can't believe I'm quoting Sex and the City of all things here, but at one point Carrie says to someone she's been dating who only halfheartedly tried to break it off with her in the most avoidant and immature way possible "you not wanting to be the bad guy is what's making you the bad guy." You can't avoid awkwardness and negative emotions here, and trying to avoid them at all cost to her and the boundaries she's trying to set is a real problem. Don't put your desire to not have to feel bad over doing the right thing and honoring her feelings and attempt to heal.
posted by ifjuly at 12:52 PM on December 17, 2014 [6 favorites]


I never dreamed I would be capable of abusing another human being- let alone a woman and I will seek professional help to make this right.

OP, I sincerely hope you seek professional help to make this right. This has been quite the pile on, so I applaud you for putting your ego aside and considering all of these tough but correct answers here. I bet you probably mean well and would like to do better.

Is anything I mentioned here considered abuse or misuse of privilege?

Yes. If she ever said anything to you like "never contact me again" and yet you still sought her out at that party? Then that would be abuse.

Here's how you misused your hetero male privilege:

As @WeekendJen so aptly put it: "All this dicking around for 8 years impacts her life if she wants children and needs to find someone who actually loves her and can commit to her."

@corb also nailed it perfectly: "She has missed out on prime marriage and childbearing years because she believed you when you said that you were interested in marriage."

Those 8 wasted years where you toyed with her about marriage, and continued to fuck her, and kept it a secret from all your friends, and (as you admit) never delivered a real commitment? Those 8 years did not negatively impact your reproductive freedom the way they have potentially impacted hers, and you have failed to comprehend that. Like it or not, there are other romantic opportunities that are now forever lost to her due to her age. You should have ended it when she was 29, tops.
posted by hush at 2:10 PM on December 17, 2014 [4 favorites]


Memail me.
posted by Violet Hour at 4:09 PM on December 17, 2014


She is a better human being than me but I am the more grounded, get-things-done, get-back-to-reality sort of guy.

You are not the person who gets to decide what "reality" is, and then nominate yourself to get the both of you back to it. You don't get to declare that she's a "better" person than you, and thereby write yourself a license to be a complete jerk.

Despite the framing of your question, and the subtext of some advice you're getting, human relationships are not won or lost by an adherence to rules and regulations. You can't add and subtract points for having said the correct words in the correct order or not, or for failing to keep your bits out of others' bits. There is no algorithm that will tell you what behavior is acceptable.

Relationships are good or bad depending on whether both people are happy, fulfilled, cared for and understood.

Included in the above, but maybe something to specifically point out for the more concrete thinker, "relationship" means 'interpersonal relationship' and includes what you have (pretty loosely, I think) called 'friendship'.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 4:49 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


I am a South Asian average looking male and the online dating success rate for our kind is abysmal.

Dude. In addition to n-thing everything said above, are you stringing this woman along because you have a chip on your shoulder about being a "a South Asian average looking male"?

Being a "South Asian average looking male" isn't some horrific insurmountable challenge. South Asian average looking males are in various types of loving long term relationships all over the planet. You're describing this like some sort of terrible handicap.

So yeah, a) jesus christ, give this woman a break and let her go and yes, you've been awful and hurt her as a person and, b) what horrible thing are you thinking about South Asian average looking males?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:55 PM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


You need to cut this woman free immediately and completely and give her a chance to find someone who loves her.

But don't suddenly get honorable and give her the "earnest apology" someone above called for - all that's going to do is feed the song and dance she's been trying to believe in for all this time - she'll decide that maybe you're not such a jerk after all and maybe you're changing into a nice person and maybe there's still hope for your relationship; IOW, she'll keep stringing along hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

No, just be better than that - take what you deserve by being cold and hard by admitting that you're not in love with her, that the two of you just won't work, that your interests lie elsewhere and you know now that it's time for this to end - for her sake as well as yours. Then no contact whatsoever - you don't initiate, you don't respond.

That way she can be hurt and feel used, which she will anyway, but she can also be angry and think of you as an asshole, which is reasonable, and she won't have the age-old thing of blaming herself because she just wasn't good enough to make a lasting relationship with you, which is BS. She's been used for long enough.
posted by aryma at 10:47 PM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


The decent, honorable thing to do is go no contact.


One of the main reasons I broke up with an ex, is because he had done this to someone else.
Yes, he'd been lonely, and yes he'd essentially been honest that he was going to hurt them, but... that doesn't absolve you from knowingly hurting someone. Even if it was fueled by a certain obliviousness, I decided I didn't want to be with someone who had been that cruel to someone they supposedly cared about. Would they be as selfish with me?

I've been in a similar situation.
I wasn't in love with them, but they were in love with me. I finally broke up because I believed that they could find someone who would love them, and I cared enough about them that I wanted them to find one of those people. They loved me, so they wanted to keep in contact immediately after, first they wanted to be friends, then they wanted to be FWBs, and I knew as long as I was around they weren't going to get over it. It sucked, but I told them we couldn't be in contact at all, and that I was doing it because I truly believed they would find someone who loved them, and I stuck to no contact.
And they did! They are now married, living in a city we visited together.
It was a hard conversation, and it hurt them a little, but it hurt them much less than letting them string themselves along would have.

If you know someone is essentially addicted to you, then you already know you don't have a fair playing field. If they go so far as to ask you to help you break that addiction by going no contact? You do.

If you really cared about this 'friend', you'd want her to be happy, even if that meant she wasn't with you. I think we both know she would be happier with someone who loved her.
posted by Elysum at 12:11 AM on December 18, 2014 [5 favorites]


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