How to Improve Communication with Professor
September 23, 2021 11:40 AM Subscribe
I keep clashing with my rhetoric professor. Antagonizing her is the last thing I want to do, but I have to ask questions and participate, and it keeps happening anyway. How do I change this dynamic? How do I communicate with her so that my questions are answered and I learn the material, without our communication devolving into these weird, unproductive arguments? How do I cultivate a positive, respectful relationship with her?
The professor is working hard at her job, but she is an extremely rigid thinker and not the best communicator/teacher (yet), so pretty much the whole class is frustrated and confused at this point. However, my classmates don't get into out and out clashes with her like I do. I don't want to have an antagonistic relationship with her, so I am trying to improve my communication and attitude. My question is: how?
Here are examples of the kind of "clashes" that I'm talking about:
1) Based on some cases we read, she made XYZ assertion. I said that I disagreed with a portion of the assertion because it was based on proving a negative. She was adamant that the entire assertion was justified, but later in the class, when we tried to apply her assertion (and couldn't apply the disputed portion), she said I had a point.
Right after that "clash," during the class break, I spoke to her privately to say that I didn't mean to convey any disrespect. She said that I wasn't disrespectful, but I had to just accept some things as given and apply the argumentative framework we're using in class. Fair enough, I guess?
But although that is a pretty bloodless description, I feel like she humiliated me in front of the class during that "clash," and the next day I had multiple other students come up to me apologizing for their own behavior toward me and saying they felt bad.
To be completely frank, that was also not the first time that I felt like she humiliated me in class without actually hearing or addressing what I was saying/asking. The other times, it has been more about me asking a one-off question or taking my turn participating in an in-class exercise, so I have sat there kind of fuming afterward but otherwise let it go. I honestly don't know how other students feel, other than frustrated and stressed by the class in general. But regardless, she clearly sees her behavior as fine and I am certainly not going to confront her.
2) She made XYZ assertion based on some cases we read. I thought (to myself) that the assertion was probably right, but those particular cases didn't prove it... and that's fine, I'm not the assertion police. But we have a paper due this week in which we have to use another set of cases to illustrate different arguments -- so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. She got defensive about how much work went into choosing the cases in the set and didn't really answer the question.
I promise, I am NOT trying to be a jerk or "prove" her wrong or be disruptive or anything like that. Honestly, I just want to tell her what she wants to hear, because I just want to get an A in this class and move on! I am mostly worried about my grade, and I also don't want to be some random jerk-off student making an enemy of her professor.
But this class is about constructing arguments, and I am fundamentally not understanding what she considers a "good enough" argument, as far as the burden of proof is concerned. And whenever I try to clarify, she gets defensive and it becomes some weird "fight," which is the LAST thing I want.
How do I change this dynamic? How do I communicate with her so that my questions are answered and I learn the material, without setting her off? How do I cultivate a positive, respectful relationship with her?
I try to maintain a professional attitude in class, but I am planning to be even more aware of that going forward. The whole class is having one-on-one conferences with her next week, so I will get some personalized feedback. I don't think that's really going to be enough to shift the dynamic, though.
Does anybody have any ideas about how to course-correct at this point, both practical suggestions (meetings, emails, etc) and suggestions about how to change my perspective and/or communication style?
The professor is working hard at her job, but she is an extremely rigid thinker and not the best communicator/teacher (yet), so pretty much the whole class is frustrated and confused at this point. However, my classmates don't get into out and out clashes with her like I do. I don't want to have an antagonistic relationship with her, so I am trying to improve my communication and attitude. My question is: how?
Here are examples of the kind of "clashes" that I'm talking about:
1) Based on some cases we read, she made XYZ assertion. I said that I disagreed with a portion of the assertion because it was based on proving a negative. She was adamant that the entire assertion was justified, but later in the class, when we tried to apply her assertion (and couldn't apply the disputed portion), she said I had a point.
Right after that "clash," during the class break, I spoke to her privately to say that I didn't mean to convey any disrespect. She said that I wasn't disrespectful, but I had to just accept some things as given and apply the argumentative framework we're using in class. Fair enough, I guess?
But although that is a pretty bloodless description, I feel like she humiliated me in front of the class during that "clash," and the next day I had multiple other students come up to me apologizing for their own behavior toward me and saying they felt bad.
To be completely frank, that was also not the first time that I felt like she humiliated me in class without actually hearing or addressing what I was saying/asking. The other times, it has been more about me asking a one-off question or taking my turn participating in an in-class exercise, so I have sat there kind of fuming afterward but otherwise let it go. I honestly don't know how other students feel, other than frustrated and stressed by the class in general. But regardless, she clearly sees her behavior as fine and I am certainly not going to confront her.
2) She made XYZ assertion based on some cases we read. I thought (to myself) that the assertion was probably right, but those particular cases didn't prove it... and that's fine, I'm not the assertion police. But we have a paper due this week in which we have to use another set of cases to illustrate different arguments -- so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. She got defensive about how much work went into choosing the cases in the set and didn't really answer the question.
I promise, I am NOT trying to be a jerk or "prove" her wrong or be disruptive or anything like that. Honestly, I just want to tell her what she wants to hear, because I just want to get an A in this class and move on! I am mostly worried about my grade, and I also don't want to be some random jerk-off student making an enemy of her professor.
But this class is about constructing arguments, and I am fundamentally not understanding what she considers a "good enough" argument, as far as the burden of proof is concerned. And whenever I try to clarify, she gets defensive and it becomes some weird "fight," which is the LAST thing I want.
How do I change this dynamic? How do I communicate with her so that my questions are answered and I learn the material, without setting her off? How do I cultivate a positive, respectful relationship with her?
I try to maintain a professional attitude in class, but I am planning to be even more aware of that going forward. The whole class is having one-on-one conferences with her next week, so I will get some personalized feedback. I don't think that's really going to be enough to shift the dynamic, though.
Does anybody have any ideas about how to course-correct at this point, both practical suggestions (meetings, emails, etc) and suggestions about how to change my perspective and/or communication style?
I suspect that for no fault of yours, you cannot get what you need from this professor.
If you can drop the class or switch to a section with a different professor, do so. If you cannot, stop expecting to learn anything in this class; keep your head down, gut it out, and escape with the best grade you can.
Again, this isn't anything you did wrong, nor is what you're asking unreasonable. You bad-lucked into a lousy instructor; it happens.
posted by humbug at 11:52 AM on September 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
If you can drop the class or switch to a section with a different professor, do so. If you cannot, stop expecting to learn anything in this class; keep your head down, gut it out, and escape with the best grade you can.
Again, this isn't anything you did wrong, nor is what you're asking unreasonable. You bad-lucked into a lousy instructor; it happens.
posted by humbug at 11:52 AM on September 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
Well, regardless of how you got to this point, I suspect your professor feels like you are challenging her when you ask questions. She might feel like you are trying to take her down a notch or something. Or she might feel you are missing the big picture. So, she might have this filter for you.
I guess I'd say, how much of what you are asking is necessary to learn the material? Like, they might be good or interesting discussion points, but are they important and essential to raise? Are you focusing too narrowly on relatively minor details?
It sounds like you are asking abstract questions -- how do I prove a point when I don't think the models you gave us prove a point -- where you think you are trying to clarify an approach, and she thinks you are criticizing her curriculum. I think you need to show her your work and argument and get response to something specific, rather than as a general concept.
I would pull back from the in-class discussion, especially when you disagree with her. Maybe make a note of it to yourself and then let it sit and listen to the rest of the discussion. If you're in small groups, ask the question of your classmates rather than your instructor. See how they react. Let it sit before you ask these questions in front of the class as a whole.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:00 PM on September 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
I guess I'd say, how much of what you are asking is necessary to learn the material? Like, they might be good or interesting discussion points, but are they important and essential to raise? Are you focusing too narrowly on relatively minor details?
It sounds like you are asking abstract questions -- how do I prove a point when I don't think the models you gave us prove a point -- where you think you are trying to clarify an approach, and she thinks you are criticizing her curriculum. I think you need to show her your work and argument and get response to something specific, rather than as a general concept.
I would pull back from the in-class discussion, especially when you disagree with her. Maybe make a note of it to yourself and then let it sit and listen to the rest of the discussion. If you're in small groups, ask the question of your classmates rather than your instructor. See how they react. Let it sit before you ask these questions in front of the class as a whole.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:00 PM on September 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
You’re not going to like this but can you holster 50%-60% of your questions? I can see how the second one could come across as combative, particularly if she is defensive and you’re already typecast as a nitpicker. Seems like you could have proceeded with your assignment without having to “agree” with her examples. Or if you needed help with the assignment, ideally you’d do your best, come to office hours, show her your first case and ask if she thinks you’re on the right track. That 1) defers to her expertise and position and 2) sets you up for success and 3) could not be misconstrued as confrontational.
This kind of diplomacy will serve you in your academic and professional and social life, so even if it’s a pain and she’s not great, it’s worth practicing. Lots of people are frustrating and less than competent, and lots more simply communicate differently and have different perspectives and motivations than you, and finding ways to work with that is crucial. Also, I’ll take your word for it but just for the exercise of it, consider that you wouldn’t be the first student who thinks they know more than the instructor and is wrong.
posted by kapers at 12:08 PM on September 23, 2021 [22 favorites]
This kind of diplomacy will serve you in your academic and professional and social life, so even if it’s a pain and she’s not great, it’s worth practicing. Lots of people are frustrating and less than competent, and lots more simply communicate differently and have different perspectives and motivations than you, and finding ways to work with that is crucial. Also, I’ll take your word for it but just for the exercise of it, consider that you wouldn’t be the first student who thinks they know more than the instructor and is wrong.
posted by kapers at 12:08 PM on September 23, 2021 [22 favorites]
I think you're setting up direct, one-on-one conflicts with your language of "I" vs. "you." Make it instead about the content and the intellectual hurdle you see.
For the first example, "I disagree with a portion of your assertion" can become "Part of that assertion seems based on proving a negative. Is that something we'll encounter a lot? How would you recommend we handle that?"
For the second, "What if I agree with the argument but don't think that any of the cases [you've] given illustrate it well?" (I mean, we all hear the "you" implied), you can simply ask, "Can we use other cases, or use them if we justify it in the paper?" If the answer's yes, go for it. If the answer's no, then raise the issue if you actually discover none of the other cases illustrate any of the arguments. If I'm reading it correctly it sounds like you preemptively assumed that none of the cases would support any of the arguments, which is a big assumption before you've seen the materials. If you'd already seen the cases/arguments and could not genuinely connect them, then get in touch for a one-on-one conversation. Maybe the prof can walk you through her thinking. Assume there's something to learn from her, and work collaboratively to elicit it. If she can't explain things or continues to be defensive, that's yet another matter and a different conversation.
(And as an example of reworking my own first sentence so it lands more productively on your ears, I could say, "Using 'I' and 'you' in your set-up can create an artificially antagonistic dynamic that your professor might be reacting to with defensiveness.")
posted by cocoagirl at 12:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
For the first example, "I disagree with a portion of your assertion" can become "Part of that assertion seems based on proving a negative. Is that something we'll encounter a lot? How would you recommend we handle that?"
For the second, "What if I agree with the argument but don't think that any of the cases [you've] given illustrate it well?" (I mean, we all hear the "you" implied), you can simply ask, "Can we use other cases, or use them if we justify it in the paper?" If the answer's yes, go for it. If the answer's no, then raise the issue if you actually discover none of the other cases illustrate any of the arguments. If I'm reading it correctly it sounds like you preemptively assumed that none of the cases would support any of the arguments, which is a big assumption before you've seen the materials. If you'd already seen the cases/arguments and could not genuinely connect them, then get in touch for a one-on-one conversation. Maybe the prof can walk you through her thinking. Assume there's something to learn from her, and work collaboratively to elicit it. If she can't explain things or continues to be defensive, that's yet another matter and a different conversation.
(And as an example of reworking my own first sentence so it lands more productively on your ears, I could say, "Using 'I' and 'you' in your set-up can create an artificially antagonistic dynamic that your professor might be reacting to with defensiveness.")
posted by cocoagirl at 12:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
Book office hours and ask your questions in private, or over email.
She may be one of those people who don't want her stuff questioned in public. She may think students asking questions undermines her authority.
posted by kschang at 12:21 PM on September 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
She may be one of those people who don't want her stuff questioned in public. She may think students asking questions undermines her authority.
posted by kschang at 12:21 PM on September 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Have you submitted any assignments yet? That is, do you have any feedback on whether your work is or isn't connecting with the expectations for the class? cocoagirl's points seem very thoughtful about the antagonism inherent in "I'm right and you're wrong" framing, and it seems that in example 1 you have feedback that your beliefs were correct, but perhaps that's not the case in example 2?
More practically, perhaps a better starting point for your questions is your classmates. Perhaps a study group would better support your learning. You could even literally ask how they would raise any questions still unanswered with the professor, since they don't seem to have the same kind of clashes.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 1:08 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
More practically, perhaps a better starting point for your questions is your classmates. Perhaps a study group would better support your learning. You could even literally ask how they would raise any questions still unanswered with the professor, since they don't seem to have the same kind of clashes.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 1:08 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
But we have a paper due this week in which we have to use another set of cases to illustrate different arguments -- so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well.
That's a great example of a question that doesn't need to be answered at that particular moment in class. You can wait, see if there's an issue, and then take it to office hours.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:25 PM on September 23, 2021 [19 favorites]
That's a great example of a question that doesn't need to be answered at that particular moment in class. You can wait, see if there's an issue, and then take it to office hours.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:25 PM on September 23, 2021 [19 favorites]
"I am fundamentally not understanding what she considers a "good enough" argument, as far as the burden of proof is concerned."
I would ask this very question during student conference time. I would also ask for a rubric for the paper, if one has not been provided. If the Prof won't provide a rubric, ask for samples of previous work, such as, this is an "A" paper, this is a "B" paper, etc. If they won't do that, then ask for a review of the draft and some feedback. If that is not possible, will they allow a rewrite of the graded paper? If those avenues don't work, you may just need to visit student conference hours a lot to figure out what the Prof wants.
Some Profs are rigid thinkers and do not like to be questioned, especially when they are doing their Sage on the Stage thing. If so, one on one time might be better for you to ask questions.
Keep in mind, too, that it is easy for Profs to forget how challenging it can be for new learners to a topic to, well, learn the topic. When you know something inside and out it is easy to skip over the minutiae that is really important to the learning process. Maybe this is the case with your Prof? Again, time to show up for student conference hours.
posted by socrateaser at 1:56 PM on September 23, 2021
I would ask this very question during student conference time. I would also ask for a rubric for the paper, if one has not been provided. If the Prof won't provide a rubric, ask for samples of previous work, such as, this is an "A" paper, this is a "B" paper, etc. If they won't do that, then ask for a review of the draft and some feedback. If that is not possible, will they allow a rewrite of the graded paper? If those avenues don't work, you may just need to visit student conference hours a lot to figure out what the Prof wants.
Some Profs are rigid thinkers and do not like to be questioned, especially when they are doing their Sage on the Stage thing. If so, one on one time might be better for you to ask questions.
Keep in mind, too, that it is easy for Profs to forget how challenging it can be for new learners to a topic to, well, learn the topic. When you know something inside and out it is easy to skip over the minutiae that is really important to the learning process. Maybe this is the case with your Prof? Again, time to show up for student conference hours.
posted by socrateaser at 1:56 PM on September 23, 2021
“How do I change this dynamic? How do I communicate with her so that my questions are answered and I learn the material, without our communication devolving into these weird, unproductive arguments? How do I cultivate a positive, respectful relationship with her?”
While it's optimal to learning to have a positive, constructive relationship with an instructor, these things are not dependent on each other. That is, you can still learn the material and pass the class regardless of whether you have a good, bad, or nonexistent relationship. You could still learn even if she doesn't answer your questions.
I say this because I think it may be helpful to separate these concerns. Does teasing apart your ability to learn (and therefore your grade in the course) from your relationship with your teacher change how important it is to you to have a good relationship with her? If not, why are you so invested in this relationship?
What are other ways you could study and learn that don't require publicly engaging in classroom discussion? Perhaps you could try taking notes of what was said, study groups, making a list of concerns to address later…what else comes to mind?
For the communication issue, it may be helpful to reset your expectations a little bit. The things that are in your sphere of control are how you show up, what you do and say, how you feel and react, etc. You could show up with the best intentions and behaviours, but her reactions, what she does/says/feels are not in your control. Given that it takes at least two to create and maintain a dynamic and you only make up half this equation, what is realistic to achieve here?
“she clearly sees her behavior as fine”
You have no idea how she sees things. She might be barely hanging on in a particularly challenging class of students who she feels don't trust her, don't think she's a good communicator, don't think her examples are good enough, or whatever else could be going on. Or it could all be fine and she's dealt with this a million times before. Or she could be trying to get through this just as much as everyone else.
None of this matters. What matters (to you) is whether what you're doing is helping or coming off as antagonistic. You already get the sense it's the latter. So what if you focussed on listening more rather than speaking? What if you practiced showing up with curiosity instead of judgement? How might that be beneficial to your learning? And if it improves the dynamic, bonus!
posted by iamkimiam at 1:56 PM on September 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
While it's optimal to learning to have a positive, constructive relationship with an instructor, these things are not dependent on each other. That is, you can still learn the material and pass the class regardless of whether you have a good, bad, or nonexistent relationship. You could still learn even if she doesn't answer your questions.
I say this because I think it may be helpful to separate these concerns. Does teasing apart your ability to learn (and therefore your grade in the course) from your relationship with your teacher change how important it is to you to have a good relationship with her? If not, why are you so invested in this relationship?
What are other ways you could study and learn that don't require publicly engaging in classroom discussion? Perhaps you could try taking notes of what was said, study groups, making a list of concerns to address later…what else comes to mind?
For the communication issue, it may be helpful to reset your expectations a little bit. The things that are in your sphere of control are how you show up, what you do and say, how you feel and react, etc. You could show up with the best intentions and behaviours, but her reactions, what she does/says/feels are not in your control. Given that it takes at least two to create and maintain a dynamic and you only make up half this equation, what is realistic to achieve here?
“she clearly sees her behavior as fine”
You have no idea how she sees things. She might be barely hanging on in a particularly challenging class of students who she feels don't trust her, don't think she's a good communicator, don't think her examples are good enough, or whatever else could be going on. Or it could all be fine and she's dealt with this a million times before. Or she could be trying to get through this just as much as everyone else.
None of this matters. What matters (to you) is whether what you're doing is helping or coming off as antagonistic. You already get the sense it's the latter. So what if you focussed on listening more rather than speaking? What if you practiced showing up with curiosity instead of judgement? How might that be beneficial to your learning? And if it improves the dynamic, bonus!
posted by iamkimiam at 1:56 PM on September 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
You are actually in a position to learn a ton about rhetoric and argumentation here. Rhetoric is persuasive speech, and the cardinal rule of good persuasion is to learn about your audience, then address your speech to the reality of who that person is, not who you think they ought to be.
Some people pursue graduate study in composition and rhetoric because they love a rigorous, wide-ranging, intellectually challenging argument. However, in many cases, that person will opt instead for philosophy or a related discipline. It's somewhat more common for people to enter rhetoric programs because they are interested in political persuasion, often as a result of having very strong political sensibilities themselves. Thus, regardless of what should theoretically be true about logos or whatever in your arguments, you should assume that you are being taught political argumentation, where the most important connections are based on emotional and social truth rather than syllogistic logic.
Someone who makes a theoretically "correct" point that cuts against their audience's emotional or social instincts (for instance, by making them feel bad or lowering the status of things they respect) will lose a political argument-- and rightly so: they have failed to persuade. Logic-flavored surface elements like hard evidence and causal explanations are formally important, but only if they are properly selected and arranged in ways that align with the audience's emotional and social intuitions.
Your instructor is the one who gets to determine the emotional premises your class is using. That's fair enough, and if you can't discern those from her arguments so far, you can probably figure them out by stalking her Twitter account or whatever. They may not match your own premises, but that's OK; you'll learn much more from working with a worldview you don't actually agree with. So far, it sounds like you've been irritating her by drilling into the logic while failing to understand the emotional flow of the points she wishes to establish. Stop this. She's helpfully given you an example of what counts as "good-enough" logic for her purposes; now take those exact ways of thinking and quietly apply them to the new set of cases, making sure that your argument runs along emotional lines that your audience would find satisfying. If you must ask questions, direct them toward learning more about your audience's responses, in an open-minded way: "I feel like ___ wouldn't be very persuasive, would it come across better if I linked it more to ___?" The suggestion to limit these questions to office hours is a very good one.
This will be a lot more challenging than just engaging with the ideas on their own merits. It will also be immensely more valuable as training for how these things work in real life.
posted by Bardolph at 2:01 PM on September 23, 2021 [31 favorites]
Some people pursue graduate study in composition and rhetoric because they love a rigorous, wide-ranging, intellectually challenging argument. However, in many cases, that person will opt instead for philosophy or a related discipline. It's somewhat more common for people to enter rhetoric programs because they are interested in political persuasion, often as a result of having very strong political sensibilities themselves. Thus, regardless of what should theoretically be true about logos or whatever in your arguments, you should assume that you are being taught political argumentation, where the most important connections are based on emotional and social truth rather than syllogistic logic.
Someone who makes a theoretically "correct" point that cuts against their audience's emotional or social instincts (for instance, by making them feel bad or lowering the status of things they respect) will lose a political argument-- and rightly so: they have failed to persuade. Logic-flavored surface elements like hard evidence and causal explanations are formally important, but only if they are properly selected and arranged in ways that align with the audience's emotional and social intuitions.
Your instructor is the one who gets to determine the emotional premises your class is using. That's fair enough, and if you can't discern those from her arguments so far, you can probably figure them out by stalking her Twitter account or whatever. They may not match your own premises, but that's OK; you'll learn much more from working with a worldview you don't actually agree with. So far, it sounds like you've been irritating her by drilling into the logic while failing to understand the emotional flow of the points she wishes to establish. Stop this. She's helpfully given you an example of what counts as "good-enough" logic for her purposes; now take those exact ways of thinking and quietly apply them to the new set of cases, making sure that your argument runs along emotional lines that your audience would find satisfying. If you must ask questions, direct them toward learning more about your audience's responses, in an open-minded way: "I feel like ___ wouldn't be very persuasive, would it come across better if I linked it more to ___?" The suggestion to limit these questions to office hours is a very good one.
This will be a lot more challenging than just engaging with the ideas on their own merits. It will also be immensely more valuable as training for how these things work in real life.
posted by Bardolph at 2:01 PM on September 23, 2021 [31 favorites]
Is it possible that she's giving you examples that are a little messy *on purpose*? I have definitely had the experience of a student saying I was incorrect handing then something gray and asking them to discuss its whiteness, with the unstated goal of discussing its blackness the next session. I agree that office hours are a good place to ask your questions; she may show you a little more of what's happening behind the curtain one-on-one if you're expressing a lot of interest and curiosity in the material but aren't quite grokking her teaching method.
It's also possible that the best real-world illustrations of a point are still imperfect. That can also be useful and important to learn.
posted by tchemgrrl at 2:10 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's also possible that the best real-world illustrations of a point are still imperfect. That can also be useful and important to learn.
posted by tchemgrrl at 2:10 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know what rhetorical framework your course is using, but it strikes me that you seem very concerned with whether the cases you study prove the conclusion (or assertion, to use your preferred term).
Classical rhetoric, though, is the art of persuasion by appeal to character, emotion, and reason. Reason, meanwhile, is often expressed informally, through enthymemes, syllogisms some of whose premises go unstated.
The informal use of reason in rhetoric is not necessarily subject to the rigor of a formal syllogistic demonstration in logic, in good part for reasons that Bardolph sets out in their answer (which they posted as I was composing this reply).
Consider, also, that even in logic, the formal validity of the argument is independent of the truth or falsity of the premises. Consider the following syllogism:
All turtles eat only jalapeño nachos.
Socrates is a turtle.
Therefore, Socrates eats only jalapeño nachos.
If your instructor asks whether it is a valid syllogism, the only correct response is "yes." If you get hung up on whether either premise is true, you're not answering the question. Perhaps your instructor is less concerned with the validity of the cases they're using to introduce the argument than with the structure of the argument, and the kinds of persuasive appeals it uses.
Again, this is a surmise. But in any case, keep Bardolph's points in mind. Ancient rhetoricians were very aware of the difference between logical demonstration and rhetorical persuasion, and the dangers of abusing the latter. That's one reason for the contempt in which Plato held the sophists, who, he claimed, taught others how to make the weaker argument appear the stronger. It's also the reason that Quintilian defined the orator as vir bonus dicendi peritus, "A good man who is skilled in speech" (my emphasis). Of course, that was an ideal....
posted by brianogilvie at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
Classical rhetoric, though, is the art of persuasion by appeal to character, emotion, and reason. Reason, meanwhile, is often expressed informally, through enthymemes, syllogisms some of whose premises go unstated.
The informal use of reason in rhetoric is not necessarily subject to the rigor of a formal syllogistic demonstration in logic, in good part for reasons that Bardolph sets out in their answer (which they posted as I was composing this reply).
Consider, also, that even in logic, the formal validity of the argument is independent of the truth or falsity of the premises. Consider the following syllogism:
All turtles eat only jalapeño nachos.
Socrates is a turtle.
Therefore, Socrates eats only jalapeño nachos.
If your instructor asks whether it is a valid syllogism, the only correct response is "yes." If you get hung up on whether either premise is true, you're not answering the question. Perhaps your instructor is less concerned with the validity of the cases they're using to introduce the argument than with the structure of the argument, and the kinds of persuasive appeals it uses.
Again, this is a surmise. But in any case, keep Bardolph's points in mind. Ancient rhetoricians were very aware of the difference between logical demonstration and rhetorical persuasion, and the dangers of abusing the latter. That's one reason for the contempt in which Plato held the sophists, who, he claimed, taught others how to make the weaker argument appear the stronger. It's also the reason that Quintilian defined the orator as vir bonus dicendi peritus, "A good man who is skilled in speech" (my emphasis). Of course, that was an ideal....
posted by brianogilvie at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
Its a really big difference to say "I don't agree with the argument in this text" versus "I don't think your teaching is very good."
There are different ways to get under different professors' skins, and one of them is to call into question the quality/accuracy of their instruction. Others might get irritated by students who ask questions about due dates without looking at the syllabus, or students that dominate conversation, or students chewing gum, but its gotta be pretty high on the list when a student calls out their teaching.
So if your question is how to avoid unproductive arguments - don't ask challenging questions in class, even if you really have found a weakness in your professor's approach. Learn what you will in class, and use office hours to build a relationship with the professor and your own study time to learn the material.
posted by RajahKing at 2:16 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are different ways to get under different professors' skins, and one of them is to call into question the quality/accuracy of their instruction. Others might get irritated by students who ask questions about due dates without looking at the syllabus, or students that dominate conversation, or students chewing gum, but its gotta be pretty high on the list when a student calls out their teaching.
So if your question is how to avoid unproductive arguments - don't ask challenging questions in class, even if you really have found a weakness in your professor's approach. Learn what you will in class, and use office hours to build a relationship with the professor and your own study time to learn the material.
posted by RajahKing at 2:16 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
You seem like you're coming into a rhetoric class with the lens of a lawyer.People above have mentioned some of the distinctions but I just want to pause on one aspect of your telling of the interaction with your teacher.
You disagreed with her assertion, she said it was okay within the context of what she was talking about but was adamant in that, later admitted you had a point. Your interpretation of this interaction was that she humiliated you in front of the class. That's a pretty big step away from "I disagreed with a thing, she said she felt the thing was okay," it's implying an active intent to make you feel bad in front of other people. So I think if I were you I'd interrogate that a little. Why did you feel humiliated when you and the teacher had a disagreement? Was there part of the story you're leaving out?
It's entirely possible she's just a lousy professor in which case try to spend some time getting on her good side, going to office hours, seeing things from her perspective if you can, learn about the differing ways to get along with people who are different from you. It might also help to talk more with other students about these interactions, see if they have different takes on it than you do. Like, I'm not sure what "I had multiple other students come up to me apologizing for their own behavior toward me" refers to. Was there some sort of situation where people were ganging up on you? I think to understand this situation better in an attempt to keep things on the level moving forward, you may want to try to get some clarity here.
And, agreeing with the people above, you can work on asking questions that are more open ended "Could you say more about XYZ?" and less backing-into-a-corner "I disagree with you about XYZ" because depending on your teacher's emotional makeup, that may be a way for her to save face in a situation where maybe she, too, is struggling.
posted by jessamyn at 2:34 PM on September 23, 2021 [23 favorites]
You disagreed with her assertion, she said it was okay within the context of what she was talking about but was adamant in that, later admitted you had a point. Your interpretation of this interaction was that she humiliated you in front of the class. That's a pretty big step away from "I disagreed with a thing, she said she felt the thing was okay," it's implying an active intent to make you feel bad in front of other people. So I think if I were you I'd interrogate that a little. Why did you feel humiliated when you and the teacher had a disagreement? Was there part of the story you're leaving out?
It's entirely possible she's just a lousy professor in which case try to spend some time getting on her good side, going to office hours, seeing things from her perspective if you can, learn about the differing ways to get along with people who are different from you. It might also help to talk more with other students about these interactions, see if they have different takes on it than you do. Like, I'm not sure what "I had multiple other students come up to me apologizing for their own behavior toward me" refers to. Was there some sort of situation where people were ganging up on you? I think to understand this situation better in an attempt to keep things on the level moving forward, you may want to try to get some clarity here.
And, agreeing with the people above, you can work on asking questions that are more open ended "Could you say more about XYZ?" and less backing-into-a-corner "I disagree with you about XYZ" because depending on your teacher's emotional makeup, that may be a way for her to save face in a situation where maybe she, too, is struggling.
posted by jessamyn at 2:34 PM on September 23, 2021 [23 favorites]
But although that is a pretty bloodless description, I feel like she humiliated me in front of the class during that "clash," and the next day I had multiple other students come up to me apologizing for their own behavior toward me and saying they felt bad.
Are you able to identify why you felt humiliated? You don't include *any* description of anyone doing anything wrong - just a perfectly normal classroom interaction, not even involving other students except as implicit spectators.
You clearly see your behavior as fine, but the complete lack of any actual problems in your story of the incident makes me wonder if it is. Perhaps you are interpreting a slightly brusque or impersonal manner on her part as an attack. Did the other students spontaneously feel bad because they think they did something wrong, or was it triggered by some demonstration that you were upset?
posted by bashing rocks together at 3:10 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Are you able to identify why you felt humiliated? You don't include *any* description of anyone doing anything wrong - just a perfectly normal classroom interaction, not even involving other students except as implicit spectators.
You clearly see your behavior as fine, but the complete lack of any actual problems in your story of the incident makes me wonder if it is. Perhaps you are interpreting a slightly brusque or impersonal manner on her part as an attack. Did the other students spontaneously feel bad because they think they did something wrong, or was it triggered by some demonstration that you were upset?
posted by bashing rocks together at 3:10 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
it's generally frustrating for an expert when someone who objectively knows less about something disagrees with them. Especially with this phrasing: "I disagree." Your professor maaaay be mistaken, but if she's the prof and you're the student, it's likely she knows more than you.*
Some other ways to phrase it:
"I read something that made [the opposite assertion]"
"I've observed that... [contradictory evidence]. Is that a tension you've seen?"
"I'm having trouble understanding that conclusion, taking into account [whatever contradictory evidence]"
*with the giant caveat here that this is an unreliable assumption when you start talking about things that people are very passionate or political about: in that case, prejudices are very likely to trump objective knowledge.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Some other ways to phrase it:
"I read something that made [the opposite assertion]"
"I've observed that... [contradictory evidence]. Is that a tension you've seen?"
"I'm having trouble understanding that conclusion, taking into account [whatever contradictory evidence]"
*with the giant caveat here that this is an unreliable assumption when you start talking about things that people are very passionate or political about: in that case, prejudices are very likely to trump objective knowledge.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Start walking into class like you’ve got something to learn rather than something to prove.
posted by pinkacademic at 3:29 PM on September 23, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by pinkacademic at 3:29 PM on September 23, 2021 [18 favorites]
Your learning might have to be iterative in this class. Try* to meet individually with your professor about the paper before this paper is due. If you are still confused about the professor's expectations after the first paper has been returned to you, ask (at least a week before the second paper is due) to set up a one-on-one meeting "to discuss how you can do better next time." For the next assignment, ask to set up a one-on-one meeting with the professor is due to discuss the assignment. If you can get your classmates to do this too, then you all can compare notes.
*It's getting kind of late to do this if the paper is due this week.
It might be worth considering making an appointment at your school's writing center about this paper.
You might also want to ask your professor for recommendations of additional resources that can help you better understand the material. It is sometimes illustrative to see which resources professors recommend. (And sometimes it's really... not. But at least you tried :). )
...so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. I agree that your mission is not to find an argument that you agree with, but rather find an argument that you can most easily support based on the provided cases.Moreover, don't put her in the position of having to defend her teaching-- especially in a group setting. Unfortunately, you need to take the "ego hit." Instead you can frame your question as "I think I'm missing the big picture here. I think the big take away from case A is X ,and the big take away from case B is Y. Can you confirm that we are on the same page?"
I also hate bringing this up, because the site is problematic is a lot of ways, but have you checked out ratemyprofessordotcom for your instructor? Sometimes students leave helpful tips there (e.g. she is helpful during office hours).
posted by oceano at 4:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
*It's getting kind of late to do this if the paper is due this week.
It might be worth considering making an appointment at your school's writing center about this paper.
You might also want to ask your professor for recommendations of additional resources that can help you better understand the material. It is sometimes illustrative to see which resources professors recommend. (And sometimes it's really... not. But at least you tried :). )
...so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. I agree that your mission is not to find an argument that you agree with, but rather find an argument that you can most easily support based on the provided cases.Moreover, don't put her in the position of having to defend her teaching-- especially in a group setting. Unfortunately, you need to take the "ego hit." Instead you can frame your question as "I think I'm missing the big picture here. I think the big take away from case A is X ,and the big take away from case B is Y. Can you confirm that we are on the same page?"
I also hate bringing this up, because the site is problematic is a lot of ways, but have you checked out ratemyprofessordotcom for your instructor? Sometimes students leave helpful tips there (e.g. she is helpful during office hours).
posted by oceano at 4:11 PM on September 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
As for how to do well and get your A in this class, luckily she’s given you your strategy. Take the premise as a given and choose the best—not the perfect, but the best—answer. Like multiple choice with no option for “other.” You have the parameters, work within them and you’ll be fine.
If you have questions, as far as she needs to know it’s because you want to “understand,” not because you “disagree.”
Questioning the premise is for another, more advanced course, it sounds like.
posted by kapers at 4:28 PM on September 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you have questions, as far as she needs to know it’s because you want to “understand,” not because you “disagree.”
Questioning the premise is for another, more advanced course, it sounds like.
posted by kapers at 4:28 PM on September 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think you're being cheeky. I get this impression because I was often cheeky in classes myself. If you really want the marks, just submit to authority and obsequiously mirror your prof's intentions for the rest of term, which is what I ended up doing in order to pass. That's another learning experience.
Some profs don't like their authority being questioned, and many profs don't like interruptions to their personal discourse of pedagogy.
posted by ovvl at 4:58 PM on September 23, 2021
Some profs don't like their authority being questioned, and many profs don't like interruptions to their personal discourse of pedagogy.
posted by ovvl at 4:58 PM on September 23, 2021
There are a lot of OK instructors, some amazing ones, and some awful ones; mostly it depends on perspective and fit. There are also a lot of OK students, some amazing ones, and some awful ones; mostly it depends on perspective and fit.
I am a really good teacher with 14 years of experience teaching secondary school and community college. I'm definitely better now than I was at the start but I've always had a good heart and excellent academic background. But I'm not perfect and I'm not for everyone. This week I had a 13yo challenge me for having given a group of classmates a perfect score on their incredibly intro Spanish dialogue (think "Hola" and "Adios" and you've got it.) That group went above and beyond and truly was perfect. Their classmates' assignment was to take notes and give positive feedback; I was in charge of constructive feedback but some were able to be diplomatic and do both. I want them to be self-aware and also kind. That kid wanted to be those things but came off sounding like a jerk. So we discussed his reasoning, my qualifications (like are you fucking kidding me?! Ha.) But I'm a professional and confident and want him to become his best self so we discussed it more one-on-one after and we found some understanding. FWIW, his group didn't practice enough, first earned a B then redid it with my encouragement, and then also earned a perfect score. Everyone cheered them on; when a classmate offered him constructive criticism, he could not take it, claiming it was retribution. Also fun fact, another student complained "Is everyone going to earn an A on this assignment?" My reply, "We'll see. I hope so but not always. It's my job to coach you to be your best so you are set up for future language success." Geez Louise, middle school!! I'm glad they are brave enough to speak up and we all can learn from it. As I tell my students, questions and criticism to your face, when genuine, is actually a compliment because they are respecting us enough to be honest in a caring way. That said, so much is about tone and timing...
My point behind all of this? You are a successful 30something accountant with lots of life experience and good perspectives but you are NOT an expert in rhetoric and you're now engaged in some weird powerplay that's frankly disrespectful. Maybe you're right but you are wrong to be so righteous, however unintentionally. This professor may not be perfect but I will believe that she is highly qualified. We all deserve respect and young female academics so often are not respected as they should be. I agree that you should consider dropping this class so you can find a better match or, as pinkacademic said beautifully, "Start walking into class like you’ve got something to learn rather than something to prove." Be the cool older student who is confident enough to not be an expert and live with uncertainty; don't be the annoying 13yo who is so convinced he's right and feels the need to prove it.
I am currently an adult student at a flagship public university abroad. In my life I have definitely had some shitty professors but most were OK and some were lifechanging. In my current class, I have a professor that I didn't like at first: I also felt criticized and confused but, after complaining to privately classmates -- while being completely respectful to her, I realized I should give her a chance. You know what? I earned the highest grade ever in my courses there because while she wasn't always smooth, she also wanted me to learn and believed in me. I definitely learned more than one lesson that semester! You have my compassion: it's hard learning something new, being a beginner again, when you're used to being a successful adult who's so good at your chosen profession. You are wise to recognize that she's got a ways to go as a new professor but please also realize that you do, too, as a new student of rhetoric. If you are feeling really bold and ready for things to change for the better, you can see her in office hours and offer a mea culpa: "Thank you for being so patient and answering all of my questions. I know you're the expert and I'm the student but I've been struggling studying new from a different perspective." And then see what happens.
Good luck!!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:46 PM on September 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
I am a really good teacher with 14 years of experience teaching secondary school and community college. I'm definitely better now than I was at the start but I've always had a good heart and excellent academic background. But I'm not perfect and I'm not for everyone. This week I had a 13yo challenge me for having given a group of classmates a perfect score on their incredibly intro Spanish dialogue (think "Hola" and "Adios" and you've got it.) That group went above and beyond and truly was perfect. Their classmates' assignment was to take notes and give positive feedback; I was in charge of constructive feedback but some were able to be diplomatic and do both. I want them to be self-aware and also kind. That kid wanted to be those things but came off sounding like a jerk. So we discussed his reasoning, my qualifications (like are you fucking kidding me?! Ha.) But I'm a professional and confident and want him to become his best self so we discussed it more one-on-one after and we found some understanding. FWIW, his group didn't practice enough, first earned a B then redid it with my encouragement, and then also earned a perfect score. Everyone cheered them on; when a classmate offered him constructive criticism, he could not take it, claiming it was retribution. Also fun fact, another student complained "Is everyone going to earn an A on this assignment?" My reply, "We'll see. I hope so but not always. It's my job to coach you to be your best so you are set up for future language success." Geez Louise, middle school!! I'm glad they are brave enough to speak up and we all can learn from it. As I tell my students, questions and criticism to your face, when genuine, is actually a compliment because they are respecting us enough to be honest in a caring way. That said, so much is about tone and timing...
My point behind all of this? You are a successful 30something accountant with lots of life experience and good perspectives but you are NOT an expert in rhetoric and you're now engaged in some weird powerplay that's frankly disrespectful. Maybe you're right but you are wrong to be so righteous, however unintentionally. This professor may not be perfect but I will believe that she is highly qualified. We all deserve respect and young female academics so often are not respected as they should be. I agree that you should consider dropping this class so you can find a better match or, as pinkacademic said beautifully, "Start walking into class like you’ve got something to learn rather than something to prove." Be the cool older student who is confident enough to not be an expert and live with uncertainty; don't be the annoying 13yo who is so convinced he's right and feels the need to prove it.
I am currently an adult student at a flagship public university abroad. In my life I have definitely had some shitty professors but most were OK and some were lifechanging. In my current class, I have a professor that I didn't like at first: I also felt criticized and confused but, after complaining to privately classmates -- while being completely respectful to her, I realized I should give her a chance. You know what? I earned the highest grade ever in my courses there because while she wasn't always smooth, she also wanted me to learn and believed in me. I definitely learned more than one lesson that semester! You have my compassion: it's hard learning something new, being a beginner again, when you're used to being a successful adult who's so good at your chosen profession. You are wise to recognize that she's got a ways to go as a new professor but please also realize that you do, too, as a new student of rhetoric. If you are feeling really bold and ready for things to change for the better, you can see her in office hours and offer a mea culpa: "Thank you for being so patient and answering all of my questions. I know you're the expert and I'm the student but I've been struggling studying new from a different perspective." And then see what happens.
Good luck!!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:46 PM on September 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
Do you *have* to talk in class? Like, is it a participation points requirement? Because unless you are required to speak, I wouldn't keep asking this woman questions. She doesn't sound like she likes arguing and questions (ironic, given her job) and just differing from her is Not Going Well. If you'll absolutely die or be utterly lost without asking her a question, do it at office hours or email. Or just ask someone in class. I'd really limit your interactions with this woman if at all possible. (Or frankly, drop the class.)
It sounds like you just rub her the wrong way and I don't know how you'd NOT continue to rub her wrong as long as you keep speaking and communicating with her. I don't quite think she's right, but she's the one in power here and you have to adapt to her, but reading this, I don't know HOW you'd adapt to her other than parroting her and keeping quiet.
so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well.
Lie? Make up some BS?
Maybe you just can't understand how to do a logical argument (or whatever) from her, because it sounds like "do what I do, somehow" is what she's going for. Sometimes people just don't mentally live in the same world and run on the same rules that you do.
If you don't drop this class, maybe get to know others in the class who DO get along better with her and ask them what they do?
But overall, I'm with humbug on this: stop expecting to learn anything in this class; keep your head down, gut it out, and escape with the best grade you can.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:18 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you just rub her the wrong way and I don't know how you'd NOT continue to rub her wrong as long as you keep speaking and communicating with her. I don't quite think she's right, but she's the one in power here and you have to adapt to her, but reading this, I don't know HOW you'd adapt to her other than parroting her and keeping quiet.
so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well.
Lie? Make up some BS?
Maybe you just can't understand how to do a logical argument (or whatever) from her, because it sounds like "do what I do, somehow" is what she's going for. Sometimes people just don't mentally live in the same world and run on the same rules that you do.
If you don't drop this class, maybe get to know others in the class who DO get along better with her and ask them what they do?
But overall, I'm with humbug on this: stop expecting to learn anything in this class; keep your head down, gut it out, and escape with the best grade you can.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:18 PM on September 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am not a rhetorics professor, but I do teach in higher ed. I'm wondering if part of the pushback comes from the fact that these questions are derailing the actual lesson being taught? Because I know when I'm teaching, it can be frustrating when you have that one student who asks a bunch of questions - that may even be good questions! - but they are tangential to the lesson at hand, and ultimately take time away from the content I need to teach. So if rhetoric is about constructing arguments, your focus on whether the assertion is correct or whether the cases are "good enough" evidence, may not really be the best questions for class time.
Now, ideally a professor would handle this gracefully, but it's really hard to tell from your description as to what is going on here. Did the whole class gang up on you? Is that why the other students apologized?
Could you maybe try an exercise where for a couple classes/assignments, you just took what she said as a given? Like, if she tells you a particular assertion, accept it, and then think about how to construct an argument around that. Use the case studies and construct an argument as best you can.
Also, maybe she just isn't a good professor, but what if you try to start from the assumption that she knows what she's talking about. So then, if at first you don't agree with something, try to think about how maybe she may actually have a point, or why she would be making that assertion.
Either way, it sounds like this is just not going to be a class you enjoy. I'm assuming it's a required class. So just put your head down, do your best to get whatever grade you would consider acceptable, and then move on with your life. Or drop it, if you can do that without too many negative consequences. Have you gotten any graded work back?
And since it sounds like your worst experiences came from asking these questions during class time, maybe try just holding off on that until you can speak to the professor one on one.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:17 AM on September 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
Now, ideally a professor would handle this gracefully, but it's really hard to tell from your description as to what is going on here. Did the whole class gang up on you? Is that why the other students apologized?
Could you maybe try an exercise where for a couple classes/assignments, you just took what she said as a given? Like, if she tells you a particular assertion, accept it, and then think about how to construct an argument around that. Use the case studies and construct an argument as best you can.
Also, maybe she just isn't a good professor, but what if you try to start from the assumption that she knows what she's talking about. So then, if at first you don't agree with something, try to think about how maybe she may actually have a point, or why she would be making that assertion.
Either way, it sounds like this is just not going to be a class you enjoy. I'm assuming it's a required class. So just put your head down, do your best to get whatever grade you would consider acceptable, and then move on with your life. Or drop it, if you can do that without too many negative consequences. Have you gotten any graded work back?
And since it sounds like your worst experiences came from asking these questions during class time, maybe try just holding off on that until you can speak to the professor one on one.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:17 AM on September 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
Also, I'm not sure about your gender presentation, but if you are a student who is male presenting, that could add an extra dimension to this that may lead to the professor being especially on the defensive.
Either way, try to listen more in class. Compare the kind of questions and participation you engage in to the other students in the class. Make sure you are "reading the room" correctly.
I do sympathize, because when I'm a student, I'm someone who can be very opinionated and I have ADHD (and likely an autism spectrum disorder) so I often struggle to read the room, and have a tendency to impulsively interject things. To make up for this, I've had to learn to hold back for awhile, to make sure I have a sense of class norms and style before I start participating.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:22 AM on September 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Either way, try to listen more in class. Compare the kind of questions and participation you engage in to the other students in the class. Make sure you are "reading the room" correctly.
I do sympathize, because when I'm a student, I'm someone who can be very opinionated and I have ADHD (and likely an autism spectrum disorder) so I often struggle to read the room, and have a tendency to impulsively interject things. To make up for this, I've had to learn to hold back for awhile, to make sure I have a sense of class norms and style before I start participating.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:22 AM on September 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Based on some cases we read, she made XYZ assertion. I said that I disagreed with a portion of the assertion because it was based on proving a negative. She was adamant that the entire assertion was justified, but later in the class, when we tried to apply her assertion (and couldn't apply the disputed portion), she said I had a point.
..... I feel like she humiliated me in front of the class during that "clash,"
It sounds to me like she lost face and admitted she was wrong.
If - and this is a guess based on your description - she's not super confident with the material and kind of struggling, then she might not welcome being challenged, especially in front of others.
Dial it back for a couple of classes and see how that goes.
posted by bunderful at 5:40 AM on September 24, 2021
..... I feel like she humiliated me in front of the class during that "clash,"
It sounds to me like she lost face and admitted she was wrong.
If - and this is a guess based on your description - she's not super confident with the material and kind of struggling, then she might not welcome being challenged, especially in front of others.
Dial it back for a couple of classes and see how that goes.
posted by bunderful at 5:40 AM on September 24, 2021
I agree with the advice to take any criticisms, or any questions that might be viewed as criticisms, to her in person rather than mentioning them in front of the class. This is good advice in general, not just for this particular teacher. Most people like to have potential mistakes pointed out in private. You say you felt humiliated, but perhaps she felt the same way when you used a public forum to question the cases she chose, for example.
Looking back in your post history, I see that one of the things you were working on in therapy was perfectionism, or a need for overcontrol. Maybe you could view this as a chance to work on that again. As the teacher herself said: "just accept some things as given and apply the argumentative framework we're using in class."
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:21 AM on September 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Looking back in your post history, I see that one of the things you were working on in therapy was perfectionism, or a need for overcontrol. Maybe you could view this as a chance to work on that again. As the teacher herself said: "just accept some things as given and apply the argumentative framework we're using in class."
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:21 AM on September 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
the proper place for laying out your well-constructed and well-reasoned disagreements with basic premises she is trying to get you to accept for the sake of argument is in writing, in papers or on exams, and the proper time to do it is after you have demonstrated (also in writing) that you are capable of manipulating those premises to get the desired rhetorical result. but it has to be done in that order.
It is possible she was not prepared for some one of your questions and answered it badly, or is impatient, but sometimes it is just hard to tell on what level a student doesn't understand the thing they're asking about, so you answer a question they weren't asking because you happen to guess wrong. like:
I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. She got defensive about how much work went into choosing the cases in the set and didn't really answer the question.
I have to do some assuming here because there's no specific textual example to refer to, but I assume/imagine she was more exasperated than defensive because it sounds like the whole thing you are being tested on is your ability to apply the argument to the given cases. In that case, "I don't think they apply" is not easily distinguished from "I don't get it and don't know how to do the work."
It is clear that your position is you do get it, and disagree, but to have an argument at that level you have to first demonstrate in writing that you really do get it. even if the example is imperfect, this is very probably possible to do within the parameters of the problem as given. Usually, even in cases where an example is badly chosen, you can tell what the instructor is trying to elicit from you. what I would do is give that to her, and then -- only then!-- add whatever you feel you need to add about whatever you think complicates the matter.
You don't need her permission to have your own opinions on the material, and if she thought you were asking for that it may be a source of the miscommunication / her frustration.
The source of your feeling of humiliation is not clear to me.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is possible she was not prepared for some one of your questions and answered it badly, or is impatient, but sometimes it is just hard to tell on what level a student doesn't understand the thing they're asking about, so you answer a question they weren't asking because you happen to guess wrong. like:
I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. She got defensive about how much work went into choosing the cases in the set and didn't really answer the question.
I have to do some assuming here because there's no specific textual example to refer to, but I assume/imagine she was more exasperated than defensive because it sounds like the whole thing you are being tested on is your ability to apply the argument to the given cases. In that case, "I don't think they apply" is not easily distinguished from "I don't get it and don't know how to do the work."
It is clear that your position is you do get it, and disagree, but to have an argument at that level you have to first demonstrate in writing that you really do get it. even if the example is imperfect, this is very probably possible to do within the parameters of the problem as given. Usually, even in cases where an example is badly chosen, you can tell what the instructor is trying to elicit from you. what I would do is give that to her, and then -- only then!-- add whatever you feel you need to add about whatever you think complicates the matter.
You don't need her permission to have your own opinions on the material, and if she thought you were asking for that it may be a source of the miscommunication / her frustration.
The source of your feeling of humiliation is not clear to me.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
so I asked what to do if I agreed with an argument but didn't think that any of the cases given illustrated it well. She got defensive about how much work went into choosing the cases in the set and didn't really answer the question.
I promise, I am NOT trying to be a jerk or "prove" her wrong or be disruptive or anything like that.
It's worth noting that in your narrative, there's this professor you really don't like or respect--that's clear. Bad teacher, has gotten the whole class is confused, not good at logic. She makes another logical error that, magnanimously, don't challenge her on. Then you ask this nice, innocent, hypothetical question and she responds as if she somehow read your mind and picked up on this. This is an amazing coincidence.
I'm certainly not saying she's a good teacher--there's no way I can know and lots of professors aren't. And maybe she is thin skinned. But I am 100% certain that regardless of that, the subtext of your questions is coming through loud and clear to everyone but you.
In this example, it seems to me you are basically asking "what if you've constructed yet another poorly written set of examples for this assignment?" What productive answer could you plausibly expect from this?
This is not meant rhetorically. It is actually your "move ahead more productively" advice: You should ask yourself this before you ask a question. The best questions to ask are the ones where you don't know the answer and any response will be helpful to you. Ones where you think you know the answer, and the best response you imagine is that she admits you were right? Keep quiet; it's not going to happen.
I'm not putting this all on you, even if it sounds like it. Really good teachers can answer just about any question in a useful way. But if you want to change your relationship, the part that's under your control is obviously your behavior. Accept that her teaching style doesn't match your learning style, and you're going to need to be the one putting in the extra effort to cross that chasm.
posted by mark k at 12:39 PM on September 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
I promise, I am NOT trying to be a jerk or "prove" her wrong or be disruptive or anything like that.
It's worth noting that in your narrative, there's this professor you really don't like or respect--that's clear. Bad teacher, has gotten the whole class is confused, not good at logic. She makes another logical error that, magnanimously, don't challenge her on. Then you ask this nice, innocent, hypothetical question and she responds as if she somehow read your mind and picked up on this. This is an amazing coincidence.
I'm certainly not saying she's a good teacher--there's no way I can know and lots of professors aren't. And maybe she is thin skinned. But I am 100% certain that regardless of that, the subtext of your questions is coming through loud and clear to everyone but you.
In this example, it seems to me you are basically asking "what if you've constructed yet another poorly written set of examples for this assignment?" What productive answer could you plausibly expect from this?
This is not meant rhetorically. It is actually your "move ahead more productively" advice: You should ask yourself this before you ask a question. The best questions to ask are the ones where you don't know the answer and any response will be helpful to you. Ones where you think you know the answer, and the best response you imagine is that she admits you were right? Keep quiet; it's not going to happen.
I'm not putting this all on you, even if it sounds like it. Really good teachers can answer just about any question in a useful way. But if you want to change your relationship, the part that's under your control is obviously your behavior. Accept that her teaching style doesn't match your learning style, and you're going to need to be the one putting in the extra effort to cross that chasm.
posted by mark k at 12:39 PM on September 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
You are also a teacher, judging from your past questions. Are you letting that go and fully getting into student mode for your class? Because I bet you aren’t. I haaaaate having teachers sign up for workshops when I teach because they come in with an Attitude and suck up so much time and energy because they secretly believe they can do a better job teaching this thing they are paying me to teach them. They expect to interact with me on a peer to peer level because they’re also teachers, completely forgetting that we are NOT PEERS and they need to actually just sit down and stop being “active” “engaged” learners and see that they’re really just being problems by being unwilling to go with the flow. Reform your ways and stop being a thorn in this poor person’s side.
posted by Bottlecap at 2:10 PM on September 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 2:10 PM on September 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Realize what power you do have, and use it to help her.
posted by amtho at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 6:17 AM on April 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:51 AM on September 23, 2021 [15 favorites]