Wanting to get a legal consultation, they want $400. Too much?
August 20, 2021 10:12 AM Subscribe
I'm wanting to get a legal consultation for a somewhat specialized situation, but they want $400 for one hour. This is a roadblock, and my situation is as such that it might not even require that specific legal firm's representation. I cannot afford $400, but this firm specializes in the area I need help/advice with.
Two questions.
One: Recommendations on how to negotiate or ask for a lower rate? (I was under the impression that consultations were often/if not always free with lawyers)
Two: A bit worried that with their high rate for a simple consultation, they might be more likely to "want" to keep me as a customer (more money their way), so they might make it seem like I need legal representation, when I really don't. Any flags to watch for?
YANML. Thank you.
Two questions.
One: Recommendations on how to negotiate or ask for a lower rate? (I was under the impression that consultations were often/if not always free with lawyers)
Two: A bit worried that with their high rate for a simple consultation, they might be more likely to "want" to keep me as a customer (more money their way), so they might make it seem like I need legal representation, when I really don't. Any flags to watch for?
YANML. Thank you.
There's an old story/joke about a guy who has car trouble in a remote location, finally sees the one mechanic in town, and the mechanic fixes the car in 5 minutes. The mechanic charges the guy, I don't know, let's say $100 for the repair. The guys is all like, but you only spent five minutes fixing the car! And the mechanic is like, but I spent a lifetime learning which little thingie to connect to make it work. You're not paying for the five minutes, you're paying for the lifetime of experience and skill.
posted by amtho at 10:28 AM on August 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by amtho at 10:28 AM on August 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
$400 is on the spendy side in Portland, Oregon, but not unexpected in a big city in California, Texas or New York. You can find lower rates (maybe try solo practitioners or smaller firms) but if it's really a niche issue, that's not unreasonable.
In fact, you might want to shop around a bit anyway; if that quote is from a big firm, then you might end up talking to a mid- or low-level associate, who may or may not know what you need to know -- they may be treating it as an intake, where they evaluate whether you really need to spend a further hour talking to the $750/hr partner.
posted by spacewrench at 10:30 AM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
In fact, you might want to shop around a bit anyway; if that quote is from a big firm, then you might end up talking to a mid- or low-level associate, who may or may not know what you need to know -- they may be treating it as an intake, where they evaluate whether you really need to spend a further hour talking to the $750/hr partner.
posted by spacewrench at 10:30 AM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
Do you have the option of free or reduced cost legal consultation through your workplace benefits?
posted by vegartanipla at 10:33 AM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by vegartanipla at 10:33 AM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
Contact other firms that do this specialization and see what they price for an initial consult. Sometimes, a firm is just too busy and another firm can represent you just as well.
Plus, broaden your search location because everything is virtual now; documents are scanned, meetings are online.
posted by mightshould at 10:35 AM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Plus, broaden your search location because everything is virtual now; documents are scanned, meetings are online.
posted by mightshould at 10:35 AM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can you get it done in half hour, and are they willing to charge in half hour chunks?
posted by kschang at 10:39 AM on August 20, 2021
posted by kschang at 10:39 AM on August 20, 2021
My experience is that consultations are free only if they are part of the sales process. So, I have had free consultations with lawyers in the context of "is it worth pursuing legal action in this situation?" If the answer is yes, I'd be expected to hire them and pay them (or in some cases they may work on contingency), and that's why they do it for free. Sometimes if the answer is no, they will hand out some free advice as part of the conversation. But I don't think many lawyers give out free consultations with the intention of solving your problem and never getting paid for it.
If your situation really is one of trying to figure out if you need a lawyer, and being willing to pay them if it turns out that you do, I don't think it's really unreasonable to have a reasonably short conversation for free. You might just need to shop around more. Just don't expect them to be willing to dive into solving a complex problem for you without getting paid.
$400/hr does not strike me as especially high, but as others said, it will vary wildly depending on location, specialty, level of experience, size of firm, etc. If you're not comfortable with it, keep shopping around.
posted by primethyme at 10:44 AM on August 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
If your situation really is one of trying to figure out if you need a lawyer, and being willing to pay them if it turns out that you do, I don't think it's really unreasonable to have a reasonably short conversation for free. You might just need to shop around more. Just don't expect them to be willing to dive into solving a complex problem for you without getting paid.
$400/hr does not strike me as especially high, but as others said, it will vary wildly depending on location, specialty, level of experience, size of firm, etc. If you're not comfortable with it, keep shopping around.
posted by primethyme at 10:44 AM on August 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
Many bar associations in many states will arrange a referral with an initial consultation for you in whatever legal area you need for about 25 dollars for a half hour. Search the state name + bar association lawyer referral to find one in your state. This will only work if what you need can be accomplished in one brief consultation.
posted by shadygrove at 10:46 AM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by shadygrove at 10:46 AM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
If the risk of your not getting this advice stacks up to significantly more than $400, you’re getting a good deal. If not, then not.
Don’t think about price, think about value.
posted by rd45 at 11:25 AM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
Don’t think about price, think about value.
posted by rd45 at 11:25 AM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
When I was a paralegal for a solo practice immigration attorney over a decade ago in Chicago his consultation fee was $400. Occasionally he would apply the fee as a credit onto later legal fees for simple family cases but not typically. This doesn't seem wild to me. The benefit of the high fee is that he was compensated for his time and expert opinion, and contrary to your concern #2 he would be honest about whether someone needed to retain him as an attorney or not.
posted by phunniemee at 11:26 AM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 11:26 AM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
A lot of this depends on the nature of your question/situation. If what you have is a legal question you want answered, sure, there are a lot of ways to get that answer for fewer than 400 bucks. But if it's a situation in which you are looking to get an answer plus subsequent representation, and you can't afford $400, it's very likely you will have a hard time affording any "regular" representation. In that case, you should look around for low-cost alternatives from legal associations, etc. Depending on your finances and the nature of your legal situation, this may be more or less difficult to find. Local economies and prices figure in as well, as others have mentioned.
$400 doesn't seem very high for an initial consultation, and in fact I just paid that exact amount. But I'm in NYC. As others have pointed out, the amount of your exposure should certainly inform your willingness to pay. 400 bucks ain't much if your potential exposure is $10,000.
posted by slkinsey at 11:29 AM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
$400 doesn't seem very high for an initial consultation, and in fact I just paid that exact amount. But I'm in NYC. As others have pointed out, the amount of your exposure should certainly inform your willingness to pay. 400 bucks ain't much if your potential exposure is $10,000.
posted by slkinsey at 11:29 AM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
No, that’s not too much. It’s what lawyers get an hour, and that’s on the lower side. And no, despite what Metafilter loves to tell people, consultations with professionals are not free. Lawyers are entitled to be paid for their time and expertise, just like anyone else is.
posted by holborne at 11:48 AM on August 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by holborne at 11:48 AM on August 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
if you live near a law school, many of them have legal clinics for people with questions concerning particular areas of the law (housing, immigration, etc.)
posted by Morpeth at 12:13 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Morpeth at 12:13 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
$400 an hour is not unreasonable for specialist stuff. Not at all.
"But I don't think many lawyers give out free consultations with the intention of solving your problem and never getting paid for it."
This. When I was practicing solo, I would have so many people coming to me for a free half hour consult, and expecting that I would solve their problem at no cost to them. First, lawyers can't do their due diligence in that short time, which means malpractice exposure for us and perhaps an incomplete solution for you. Second, that free consult costs the lawyer -- protection for you in the lawyer's insurance costs, overhead of running an office, time spent on not bringing in money on another file. Third -- I don't work for free. Why should anyone?
If cost is a barrier for you, there are other options, like legal clinics. You can try to negotiate a lower rate with the lawyer, but I doubt that will go very far. You will be likelier to negotiate a payment schedule than a reduction.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:17 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
"But I don't think many lawyers give out free consultations with the intention of solving your problem and never getting paid for it."
This. When I was practicing solo, I would have so many people coming to me for a free half hour consult, and expecting that I would solve their problem at no cost to them. First, lawyers can't do their due diligence in that short time, which means malpractice exposure for us and perhaps an incomplete solution for you. Second, that free consult costs the lawyer -- protection for you in the lawyer's insurance costs, overhead of running an office, time spent on not bringing in money on another file. Third -- I don't work for free. Why should anyone?
If cost is a barrier for you, there are other options, like legal clinics. You can try to negotiate a lower rate with the lawyer, but I doubt that will go very far. You will be likelier to negotiate a payment schedule than a reduction.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:17 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
In addition to location, it also depends on what you're asking for. I've had lawyers give me free initial consults if there was the potential for them to get longer-term business -- in some of these cases I ended up hiring them directly and in other cases it turned out I didn't need them and I did my best to send work their way. But for matters that were more straightforward where a big portion of the value is provided in the initial consult, lawyers tend to charge off the bat. In my experience, litigators tend to be the most likely to give you free advice, while immigration and contract review for instance will charge from the first hour.
In other words, my experience is the opposite of your worry: if lawyers tend to want you as a longer-term client, they're more likely to give you a free consultation, whereas if they charge for the first hour they will feel OK never seeing you again.
As an hourly rate for a specialist, $400 is not unreasonable at all.
posted by goingonit at 12:34 PM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
In other words, my experience is the opposite of your worry: if lawyers tend to want you as a longer-term client, they're more likely to give you a free consultation, whereas if they charge for the first hour they will feel OK never seeing you again.
As an hourly rate for a specialist, $400 is not unreasonable at all.
posted by goingonit at 12:34 PM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
Alas to reiterate, if you can’t afford $400 for a consult, you probably can’t afford further representation, if needed, from a lawyer of this bracket, at least. But for many values of “specialized professional advice,” and certainly if it involves your business or significant personal assets at risk, or your freedom in some cases, the other balancing take is “can you afford NOT to pay whatever the necessary legal costs are?” Alas as with many things in life, with lawyers you do often get what you pay for. Lawyers got bills to pay too.
posted by spitbull at 2:47 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 2:47 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't understand why so many people are answering the question "is this a fair price?", and not one of the two questions the OP asked.
posted by caek at 3:13 PM on August 20, 2021
posted by caek at 3:13 PM on August 20, 2021
Caek, I think it's because they ask that question in the title of the question.
OP, as to your first question it never hurts to ask, recognizing that you are asking them for a favor. As a lawyer with a specialized practice and a billable rate of almost double the one you were quoted I have, on occasion, given deep discounts or written off the fees entirely for people who clearly only needed a small amount of my time and were otherwise in a bad position. I would start by being frank with them about your financial situation and ask if they know of any lower cost options to assist you - if it's a specialized area they may be in the best position to know about alternative resources, and they may instead offer to cut their rates or make another arrangement for a short consultation. If not, they may be able to refer you to someone more in your range, I often refer small potential clients who cannot afford me to decent solo attorneys and the like if they ask.
As to your second question it comes down to a few things: (1) it would be deeply unethical for an attorney to string you along and provide you advice with the goal of generating more legal fees so if these attorneys are all reputable they will not do that; (2) even if they were this type of attorney you would not be an appealing target since it sounds like you will have difficulty paying for one hour much less more; and (3) if they are good at what they do they have the problem of not having enough time in the day to handle the work they have versus trying to gin up unnecessary work. It would admittedly often be difficult for a layperson to tell if an attorney is doing this, but if they have good reputations and no bar complaints then those are the two easiest markers that this is probably not going to happen.
posted by wuzandfuzz at 4:43 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
OP, as to your first question it never hurts to ask, recognizing that you are asking them for a favor. As a lawyer with a specialized practice and a billable rate of almost double the one you were quoted I have, on occasion, given deep discounts or written off the fees entirely for people who clearly only needed a small amount of my time and were otherwise in a bad position. I would start by being frank with them about your financial situation and ask if they know of any lower cost options to assist you - if it's a specialized area they may be in the best position to know about alternative resources, and they may instead offer to cut their rates or make another arrangement for a short consultation. If not, they may be able to refer you to someone more in your range, I often refer small potential clients who cannot afford me to decent solo attorneys and the like if they ask.
As to your second question it comes down to a few things: (1) it would be deeply unethical for an attorney to string you along and provide you advice with the goal of generating more legal fees so if these attorneys are all reputable they will not do that; (2) even if they were this type of attorney you would not be an appealing target since it sounds like you will have difficulty paying for one hour much less more; and (3) if they are good at what they do they have the problem of not having enough time in the day to handle the work they have versus trying to gin up unnecessary work. It would admittedly often be difficult for a layperson to tell if an attorney is doing this, but if they have good reputations and no bar complaints then those are the two easiest markers that this is probably not going to happen.
posted by wuzandfuzz at 4:43 PM on August 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
IAAL. IANYL.
I was under the impression that consultations were often/if not always free with lawyers
Free consultations are for the attorney to get enough information to evaluate your case as a prospective client, check for conflicts and decide whether to offer you representation and upon what terms.
They are not for you to receive advice as a client, though you may receive some generalized information enough for you to understand the attorney's evaluation and in some cases the attorney may warn you about when statutes of limitation may run. (Though you should not rely on that.)
If what you want is a limited engagement amounting to a one hour Q&A session referencing materials you've sent ahead, it's appropriate to expect to pay the prevailing hourly rate for that.
Recommendations on how to negotiate or ask for a lower rate?
Politely. Be direct but not rude and explain why you think the work should be discounted.
A bit worried that with their high rate for a simple consultation, they might be more likely to "want" to keep me as a customer (more money their way), so they might make it seem like I need legal representation, when I really don't.
It's not wise to seek legal advice with preconceptions about what that advice should be. But, that said, make it clear you won't be hiring them for more work. Then you can expect the recommendation to be as honest as possible. But the real reason this is the usual recommendation is CYA as much as anything else.
Doing this is more or less incompatible with getting a discount.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:55 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
I was under the impression that consultations were often/if not always free with lawyers
Free consultations are for the attorney to get enough information to evaluate your case as a prospective client, check for conflicts and decide whether to offer you representation and upon what terms.
They are not for you to receive advice as a client, though you may receive some generalized information enough for you to understand the attorney's evaluation and in some cases the attorney may warn you about when statutes of limitation may run. (Though you should not rely on that.)
If what you want is a limited engagement amounting to a one hour Q&A session referencing materials you've sent ahead, it's appropriate to expect to pay the prevailing hourly rate for that.
Recommendations on how to negotiate or ask for a lower rate?
Politely. Be direct but not rude and explain why you think the work should be discounted.
A bit worried that with their high rate for a simple consultation, they might be more likely to "want" to keep me as a customer (more money their way), so they might make it seem like I need legal representation, when I really don't.
It's not wise to seek legal advice with preconceptions about what that advice should be. But, that said, make it clear you won't be hiring them for more work. Then you can expect the recommendation to be as honest as possible. But the real reason this is the usual recommendation is CYA as much as anything else.
Doing this is more or less incompatible with getting a discount.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:55 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Really, if anything you should expect to pay more as this comes with malpractice liability and very little upside. if this were on a transaction of some sort I'd be worried that a client like this was looking to spend as little as possible to check the due diligence box and may ignore what advice is received while sheltering under my malpractice policy for $400.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:03 PM on August 20, 2021
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:03 PM on August 20, 2021
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker:
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. What would a recommended script be to negotiate the price, and/or reduce the CT time to only be 30 minutes, without seeming stingy? I don't want to overshare financial tightness, but I don't want to give up a possibly good CT that I could get for less (especially as it might turn out I wouldn't even need their legal services at all).posted by cortex (staff) at 12:11 PM on August 21, 2021
I don't think there is such a script†. You seem to have a specific firm in mind, and you know what they charge, but you don't want to pay that much. Although it may seem like knowledge and advice is different from a physical product, knowledge and advice are all that lawyer has to sell.
The fact that a lawyer could listen to your story and tell you what to expect, for free, is no different than the fact that the Ferrari dealer could give you that lovely SF90 for free -- both the lawyer and the dealer could make up the difference by charging other people more. But you should no more expect the lawyer to work for free, or for 50% off, or for whatever you can afford, than you should expect the Ferrari dealer to cut you a break, just because you need some sweet wheels.
There are often things that one would like, but simply cannot afford. Many people make their peace with not having those things (others charge up their credit cards and pay for it over time.)
If I was you, I'd call other firms and (particularly) individual lawyers to ask about experience and rates. The reason to call solo lawyers is that you know whom you'll be speaking to. Nothing worse than hiring a firm but getting a junior person who doesn't have the knowledge and experience you need (this is from personal experience -- lawyers also hire other lawyers from time to time to help with personal matters, and we don't like wasting money any more than anybody else.)
If you can't find anybody whose rates fit into your personal calculus regarding the value of the advice you'd be seeking, then this advice may just be something that, under the circumstances, you can't afford. It's unfortunate, but plenty of people forego legal advice when they shouldn't, and many of them turn out fine.
† I occasionally get prospective clients asking me to do work for free, or for a share of the business they're starting, or something of similar uncertain value. That's a huge red flag for me. I do do some pro bono work, but it's my choice when, and how much, to do. There is no shortage of people who would like to get free legal work, and most lawyers have learned that those clients are often the most demanding, the most likely to lie about critical but unflattering things, the most likely to waste time, and the most likely to file bar complaints. So "give me a discount," or "do this work for me for free" is a great way to identify yourself as a person the lawyer would be wise to decline working for.
posted by spacewrench at 12:50 PM on August 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
The fact that a lawyer could listen to your story and tell you what to expect, for free, is no different than the fact that the Ferrari dealer could give you that lovely SF90 for free -- both the lawyer and the dealer could make up the difference by charging other people more. But you should no more expect the lawyer to work for free, or for 50% off, or for whatever you can afford, than you should expect the Ferrari dealer to cut you a break, just because you need some sweet wheels.
There are often things that one would like, but simply cannot afford. Many people make their peace with not having those things (others charge up their credit cards and pay for it over time.)
If I was you, I'd call other firms and (particularly) individual lawyers to ask about experience and rates. The reason to call solo lawyers is that you know whom you'll be speaking to. Nothing worse than hiring a firm but getting a junior person who doesn't have the knowledge and experience you need (this is from personal experience -- lawyers also hire other lawyers from time to time to help with personal matters, and we don't like wasting money any more than anybody else.)
If you can't find anybody whose rates fit into your personal calculus regarding the value of the advice you'd be seeking, then this advice may just be something that, under the circumstances, you can't afford. It's unfortunate, but plenty of people forego legal advice when they shouldn't, and many of them turn out fine.
† I occasionally get prospective clients asking me to do work for free, or for a share of the business they're starting, or something of similar uncertain value. That's a huge red flag for me. I do do some pro bono work, but it's my choice when, and how much, to do. There is no shortage of people who would like to get free legal work, and most lawyers have learned that those clients are often the most demanding, the most likely to lie about critical but unflattering things, the most likely to waste time, and the most likely to file bar complaints. So "give me a discount," or "do this work for me for free" is a great way to identify yourself as a person the lawyer would be wise to decline working for.
posted by spacewrench at 12:50 PM on August 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
What would a recommended script be to negotiate the price, and/or reduce the CT time to only be 30 minutes, without seeming stingy?
(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer; hence, the advice I offer in this comment is based only on what seems obvious to me as a layperson. I won't take offense if anyone jumps in to point out that my suggestions contradict legal best practices. In fact, I would appreciate it.)
It doesn't sound like negotiating the price is a realistic idea, especially considering that you yourself say this is "a somewhat specialized situation," so I think you're going to have to let go of this as a possibility.
Re: the length of the consultation: Ask them, "I would ike to schedule a 30-minute consultation. Would that be possible?" If they say, "No," then you can call someone else; if they say, "Yes," then you can move ahead with this firm.
... without seeming stingy?
If you have made a polite, succinct and straightforward request for a 30-minute consultation instead of an hour-long one, I can't imagine that anyone is going to ask you your reasons for doing so. If they do, just say, "I have scheduling constraints," and leave it at that. You don't owe anyone there the details of your personal financial picture.
posted by virago at 1:51 PM on August 21, 2021
(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer; hence, the advice I offer in this comment is based only on what seems obvious to me as a layperson. I won't take offense if anyone jumps in to point out that my suggestions contradict legal best practices. In fact, I would appreciate it.)
It doesn't sound like negotiating the price is a realistic idea, especially considering that you yourself say this is "a somewhat specialized situation," so I think you're going to have to let go of this as a possibility.
Re: the length of the consultation: Ask them, "I would ike to schedule a 30-minute consultation. Would that be possible?" If they say, "No," then you can call someone else; if they say, "Yes," then you can move ahead with this firm.
... without seeming stingy?
If you have made a polite, succinct and straightforward request for a 30-minute consultation instead of an hour-long one, I can't imagine that anyone is going to ask you your reasons for doing so. If they do, just say, "I have scheduling constraints," and leave it at that. You don't owe anyone there the details of your personal financial picture.
posted by virago at 1:51 PM on August 21, 2021
This is like going to a restaurant, ordering an appetizer and then asking for it to be discounted 50% because you only had one course. After warning the host that you won't be tipping and don't want to see the wine list. So you can say you went there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:34 AM on August 27, 2021
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:34 AM on August 27, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
You can certainly ask for a reduced rate, but there is no guarantee that you will get it. Specialized expertise does not come cheap.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2021 [5 favorites]