Throw Some Serious Water on Those Fires
August 3, 2021 6:03 PM Subscribe
Why don't US wildfire fighting agencies use more aircraft to fight fires?
A French friend told me that in France they use big squadrons of Bombardier Superscoopers to attack wildfires. It's my impression that in the US we use some helicopters and airplanes but to a very limited extent. Why don't we have dozens of these aircraft available to attack our wildfires?
A French friend told me that in France they use big squadrons of Bombardier Superscoopers to attack wildfires. It's my impression that in the US we use some helicopters and airplanes but to a very limited extent. Why don't we have dozens of these aircraft available to attack our wildfires?
"CAL FIRE’s fleet of more than 60 fixed and rotary wing aircraft make it the largest civil aerial firefighting fleet in the world." In addition to the CL-415, they use several aircraft types with significantly larger capacities.
I don't think the question of how to best combat wildfires is as simple as why don't we have more planes.
posted by JackBurden at 6:30 PM on August 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
I don't think the question of how to best combat wildfires is as simple as why don't we have more planes.
posted by JackBurden at 6:30 PM on August 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
Firefighter with some wildfire training in my house says:
-There are actually US aircraft used in fighting wildfires. Military vehicles get borrowed when needed. But:
-The wilderness in the US is just plain wilder, bigger, and drier than it is in France. Fewer places for planes to take off, fewer places for them to get water safely. Helicopters don’t need a runway or a long stretch of water to scoop from. (Apparently the Canadian Maritimes use a lot of planes; they can scoop ocean water and not be too far from any fire.)
-There is some disagreement in that community about how much good airdrops do anyhow; they might be put to better use dropping off firefighters if there is a safe landing spot nearby.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:31 PM on August 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
-There are actually US aircraft used in fighting wildfires. Military vehicles get borrowed when needed. But:
-The wilderness in the US is just plain wilder, bigger, and drier than it is in France. Fewer places for planes to take off, fewer places for them to get water safely. Helicopters don’t need a runway or a long stretch of water to scoop from. (Apparently the Canadian Maritimes use a lot of planes; they can scoop ocean water and not be too far from any fire.)
-There is some disagreement in that community about how much good airdrops do anyhow; they might be put to better use dropping off firefighters if there is a safe landing spot nearby.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:31 PM on August 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
The short answer is they do.
The longer answer is the USA covers 18 times the area of France, has 5 gazillion more pieces of government, and many of those governments tend to lease air tankers instead of buy them, so it's harder to do an inventory. So while I *expect* there is at least ten times as much water tanker capacity in the US as in France, it's way too much work to check. California and the National Forest Service each have more air tanker capacity than France, to start with.
posted by bashing rocks together at 6:43 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
The longer answer is the USA covers 18 times the area of France, has 5 gazillion more pieces of government, and many of those governments tend to lease air tankers instead of buy them, so it's harder to do an inventory. So while I *expect* there is at least ten times as much water tanker capacity in the US as in France, it's way too much work to check. California and the National Forest Service each have more air tanker capacity than France, to start with.
posted by bashing rocks together at 6:43 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
For a deep dive into forest firefighting, I highly recommend Norman Mclean's gripping accoung in Young Men and Fire.
posted by dum spiro spero at 6:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by dum spiro spero at 6:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
A French friend told me that in France they use big squadrons of Bombardier Superscoopers to attack wildfires.
If we believe wikipedia, "big squadrons" = 12.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:37 PM on August 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
If we believe wikipedia, "big squadrons" = 12.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:37 PM on August 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
At least in California right now, it's also partly because the pandemic is screwing with airline fuel supply lines, so whether or not to deploy airborne firefighting is being rationed. Also because at least as of a couple of months ago, we were having trouble even hiring sufficient numbers of federal wilderness firefighters for this season, along with the pilots to fly them when necessary.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Pandora Kouti at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
California and the rest of the West coast is also in the middle (beginning?) of a serious drought. In my area, Napa County, they did use water drops from aircraft to fight last year’s fires. And our local reservoir is severely depleted as a result.
I’m also pretty sure that there’s no way we could drop enough water to actually put out the fires currently burning even if it was available. There is a system in place to douse wildfires with water and it’s called rain. A big reason the fires are so bad recently is because we haven’t been getting enough of it. Not enough rain and not enough snowpack. Everything is dry and ready to burn.
posted by Jawn at 7:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I’m also pretty sure that there’s no way we could drop enough water to actually put out the fires currently burning even if it was available. There is a system in place to douse wildfires with water and it’s called rain. A big reason the fires are so bad recently is because we haven’t been getting enough of it. Not enough rain and not enough snowpack. Everything is dry and ready to burn.
posted by Jawn at 7:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's a lot more to unpack here than I'm willing to get into, but the US does use lots of firefighting aircraft. When the fires get big, though, water drops are next to useless. What we do instead is drop fire retardant to save homes and build firebreaks to help direct the fire away from populated areas and to limit the spread as much as possible. Despite the impression one might get from the news, we're actually really freaking good at keeping wildfire from burning stuff down. You don't see the ones that are saved, though, just the ones that burn.
posted by wierdo at 8:06 PM on August 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 8:06 PM on August 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
They certainly do use them in the US, but consider that my state (Washington) entered the summer in far less dire conditions than California, and has two active fires each about the size of France's second largest (per Wikipedia) wildfire in the past century. Oregon has an active fire more than three times as large as France's largest, and I don't even want to know what's going on in California and British Columbia.
posted by wotsac at 8:14 PM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by wotsac at 8:14 PM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
France is also significantly wetter in the summer than the American West, from what I can tell from browsing wikipedia. Most places in the American west get little-to-no rainfall at all during the summer months, especially in California, so what with climate change we end up living in a tinderbox. France, I'd imagine, rarely gets a chance to develop the sort of conditions that lead to the massive wildfires here.
posted by Aleyn at 8:37 PM on August 3, 2021
posted by Aleyn at 8:37 PM on August 3, 2021
Just to chime in on the scale difference between the PNW + California vs France, wikipedia says France's largest wildfire ever was 50,000 hectares, and the second largest ever half that (source). Meanwhile these are BC's current active "wildfires of note". Just scanning the list quickly, we have 3 fires burning right now that are bigger than France's largest ever. It's a different scale of problem here, and this is just BC. I assume washington/oregon/california is the same if not worse. I lump BC in with the US here because Canada and the US frequently send crews to each other's fires as needed.
posted by cgg at 8:59 PM on August 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by cgg at 8:59 PM on August 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
The largest fire in California in 2020 was the August Complex Fire, which was over 1 million acres (404,000 hectares) and in total over 4 million acres burned just last year. And while last year was super bad, massive fires are a yearly occurrence. You can see daily updates on how they fought the fires, for example on this day 8 airplanes and 2 helicopters dropped on one area throughout the day, and additional scoopers dropped water on a different fire... so probably the equivalent of France's entire fleet was working on just the August Complex fire that day (and it was hardly the only one burning at the time).
posted by thefoxgod at 9:17 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by thefoxgod at 9:17 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
The short answer is fire-fighting aircraft cost a lot to maintain year-round but is only used for a few months a year. Government can't really justify that sort of expenditure curve.
The fire-fighting aircraft are also VERY specifically mission-built and thus are not really usable for everything else. A cargo aircraft can be used anywhere. A fire-fighting aircraft is only good for fighting fires.
For example, 747 Supertanker #3 (tail 944) has been sidelined because its operator, Global Supertanker Services, can't stay in service and shut down in 2021 despite owning the ONLY 747 Supertanker in service and was contracted all over the world for fighting fires in late 2010's (both US and South America).
While the Ukrainian Antonov 225, the largest transport plane in the world, and the ONLY one flying, draws a crowd anywhere it flies to, and carries 200 tons of cargo in one go, all over the world, and at times, even contracted by the US and Canadian military, and various NGOs to move huge amount of supplies in one go.
posted by kschang at 9:36 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
The fire-fighting aircraft are also VERY specifically mission-built and thus are not really usable for everything else. A cargo aircraft can be used anywhere. A fire-fighting aircraft is only good for fighting fires.
For example, 747 Supertanker #3 (tail 944) has been sidelined because its operator, Global Supertanker Services, can't stay in service and shut down in 2021 despite owning the ONLY 747 Supertanker in service and was contracted all over the world for fighting fires in late 2010's (both US and South America).
While the Ukrainian Antonov 225, the largest transport plane in the world, and the ONLY one flying, draws a crowd anywhere it flies to, and carries 200 tons of cargo in one go, all over the world, and at times, even contracted by the US and Canadian military, and various NGOs to move huge amount of supplies in one go.
posted by kschang at 9:36 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
There was a modest sized forest fire (60ish acres) six miles from my house last weekend. we stood on my deck and watched a jet and several helicopters drop water until sunset. When appropriate and available, they are but one tool. currently there is a shortage of jet fuel i've been told.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:16 PM on August 3, 2021
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:16 PM on August 3, 2021
It's a scale thing.
When you have a fire complex big enough that it's creating its own weather, the only way you have any hope of stopping it burning everything to the ground is by backburning off containment lines in order to create wide enough burnt areas downwind of the fire to stop it in its tracks. Dropping water on the main complex from aircraft is just pointless; there's so much energy in the wildfire compared to the volume of water you can feasibly move with aircraft that you might as well just spit on it.
Where aircraft are mainly useful is in suppressing spot fires lit off by the main complex lofting burning fuels and dropping them on the wrong side of your containment line.
It's only natural to be impressed by the sheer size and capability of a large firefighting aircraft when you see one operating close to, but you know, there's large, and then there's large.
Large wildfires do get suppressed by throwing some serious water on them, but the quantities of water required are so serious that heavy rain is the only feasible delivery mechanism. Our puny flying machines are in no way capable of moving water in the amounts required.
posted by flabdablet at 11:37 PM on August 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
When you have a fire complex big enough that it's creating its own weather, the only way you have any hope of stopping it burning everything to the ground is by backburning off containment lines in order to create wide enough burnt areas downwind of the fire to stop it in its tracks. Dropping water on the main complex from aircraft is just pointless; there's so much energy in the wildfire compared to the volume of water you can feasibly move with aircraft that you might as well just spit on it.
Where aircraft are mainly useful is in suppressing spot fires lit off by the main complex lofting burning fuels and dropping them on the wrong side of your containment line.
It's only natural to be impressed by the sheer size and capability of a large firefighting aircraft when you see one operating close to, but you know, there's large, and then there's large.
Large wildfires do get suppressed by throwing some serious water on them, but the quantities of water required are so serious that heavy rain is the only feasible delivery mechanism. Our puny flying machines are in no way capable of moving water in the amounts required.
posted by flabdablet at 11:37 PM on August 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
When I was hiking in Santa Cruz a few months ago, I came across a part of the forest that was back burned. This was in a massive redwood forest that was extremely close to town, and I was deeply surprised by how effective it was in preventing fires from going further.
posted by yueliang at 1:35 AM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by yueliang at 1:35 AM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
A good source of information on California fires and the use of aircraft in fighting the fires is the blancolirio YouTube channel. (He also posts on a wide variety of aircraft topics.) One of things he emphasizes is that the aircraft do not put out the fire. They drop retardant near the fire's edges in order protect people and structures.
California's forests are divided into state-owned and Federal-owned. Calfire fights files in the state forests, and the Feds fight the fires in the Federal forests.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:36 AM on August 4, 2021
California's forests are divided into state-owned and Federal-owned. Calfire fights files in the state forests, and the Feds fight the fires in the Federal forests.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:36 AM on August 4, 2021
I'll note that most of the forests they are fighting to protect in France are almost entirely private property, while a large portion of the western states are government owned. The majority of the forests in western Canada are government owned. Containing a forest fire is often sufficient in western North America, as the government's long term goals of stewardship of a forest uses a fundamentally different approach than the Europeans.
For most forests in the west fire is a part of the natural cycle.
posted by zenon at 8:44 AM on August 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
For most forests in the west fire is a part of the natural cycle.
posted by zenon at 8:44 AM on August 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
One more thing to add: dropping water or retardent on a fire is a VERY strenuous job for the aircraft, so maintenance costs can be high. A plane does NOT like tons and tons of water leaving all of a sudden. We're talking about THOUSANDS of gallons at a time. AND the air above a fire can be unpredictable. There have been reports of older aircraft falling apart while fighting fires. Stress fractures are serious business, and many of the fire-fighting aircraft are NOT purpose-built, but converted from planes that already spent decades in service. The Lockheed Electra air tankers with a belly tank are built in the 1950's and 60's, and many are still flying TODAY! (Such as at Buffalo Airways in Canada) and those are actually cheap, compared to jet-powered air tankers!
This article has some operating costs: https://mynews4.com/on-your-side/ask-joe/ask-joe-how-much-do-those-firefighting-planes-cost-to-operate
posted by kschang at 1:25 PM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
This article has some operating costs: https://mynews4.com/on-your-side/ask-joe/ask-joe-how-much-do-those-firefighting-planes-cost-to-operate
posted by kschang at 1:25 PM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
We use aircraft in Australia and we swap back and forth assisting the US and Canada and they help us. It’s always announced when the North American crews come here to help and they get a very warm (ha!) welcome.
It can be tricky with availability as California fire season overlaps a lot with ours.
posted by kitten magic at 5:50 PM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
It can be tricky with availability as California fire season overlaps a lot with ours.
posted by kitten magic at 5:50 PM on August 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
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In North America, the most effective techniques are cutting brush lines, and back-burns to steal the fuel of a forest fire. Aircraft are expensive, and the west is very big. Normal ground techniques can be accomplished by seasonal personnel and local volunteer fire fighters.
I have also heard that lobbying has gotten us miserable "privatized" attempts at air fleets, but the end result is no buyers, from state and federal land agencies that have no budget to pay for it.
posted by nickggully at 6:26 PM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]