How to distinguish a misunderstanding from gaslighting?
July 10, 2021 4:05 AM Subscribe
Short version is according to my memory my boyfriend told me someone I thought was called Christian was actually called Tristian. I thought we had a whole sort of ongoing joke about it. Then a month or so later he tells me Tristian is called Christian and those conversations never happened.
A few months ago my boyfriend and I met someone called Christian and his sister's cat George.
Actually the cat is called Jaws. This is kind of funny because Jaws and George sound very similar in our accent. Ok.
At some point my boyfriend told me the guy's name isn't actually Christian it's Tristian. Ok they also sound very similar. Don't remember the details of this conversation. Just that I'd got the name wrong - no big deal.
A few weeks later we saw Christian in passing.
Me and bf had a discussion about how weird his name is. Not Christian but Tristian or Tristam. I remember being like Tristian weird I misheard it and him being like not even Tristian but Tristram. And me saying the name out loud. I remember not being able to say it quite right, being unsure of it was Tristian or Tristram but this didn't bother me.
A week or so ago bf was being threatened by Christian when I wasn't there and he was worried about this. I remember talking about his name being weird again although can't actually recall specific details of this if pressed.
Then yesterday I made a reference to Tristian
Him: what?? you must mean Christian
Me: But his name is Tristrian we had a whole thing about it being a weird name.
Him: No we didn't. You must be thinking of Tristrian (who is a completely other person with nothing to do with Christian)
Me: Ok but that wouldn't even make sense? Please don't do this its really disturbing.
Him: I don't want to talk about this. You're accusing me of things I didn't do.
Now I'm trying to understand what's happened. I totally get memory being faulty. But my immediate reaction was like wtf? he's clearly gaslighting me.
Like it would be one thing if he was like oh you never said Jaws' name was George. He might just have forgot. But to come up with an entirely different name and then act like those conversations never happened?
Another possibility though is that he thought I thought Tristian's name was Christian. And our conversations about Tristian being Christian were about me having thought that. But I just don't see how that would make sense? Like there would have been no context for it? We would never have been talking about Tristrian who is a really distant acquaintance, it was always specifically about Christian?
I guess its kind of impossible for strangers to know but does it sound like a plausible misunderstanding or more likely to be gaslighting?
A few months ago my boyfriend and I met someone called Christian and his sister's cat George.
Actually the cat is called Jaws. This is kind of funny because Jaws and George sound very similar in our accent. Ok.
At some point my boyfriend told me the guy's name isn't actually Christian it's Tristian. Ok they also sound very similar. Don't remember the details of this conversation. Just that I'd got the name wrong - no big deal.
A few weeks later we saw Christian in passing.
Me and bf had a discussion about how weird his name is. Not Christian but Tristian or Tristam. I remember being like Tristian weird I misheard it and him being like not even Tristian but Tristram. And me saying the name out loud. I remember not being able to say it quite right, being unsure of it was Tristian or Tristram but this didn't bother me.
A week or so ago bf was being threatened by Christian when I wasn't there and he was worried about this. I remember talking about his name being weird again although can't actually recall specific details of this if pressed.
Then yesterday I made a reference to Tristian
Him: what?? you must mean Christian
Me: But his name is Tristrian we had a whole thing about it being a weird name.
Him: No we didn't. You must be thinking of Tristrian (who is a completely other person with nothing to do with Christian)
Me: Ok but that wouldn't even make sense? Please don't do this its really disturbing.
Him: I don't want to talk about this. You're accusing me of things I didn't do.
Now I'm trying to understand what's happened. I totally get memory being faulty. But my immediate reaction was like wtf? he's clearly gaslighting me.
Like it would be one thing if he was like oh you never said Jaws' name was George. He might just have forgot. But to come up with an entirely different name and then act like those conversations never happened?
Another possibility though is that he thought I thought Tristian's name was Christian. And our conversations about Tristian being Christian were about me having thought that. But I just don't see how that would make sense? Like there would have been no context for it? We would never have been talking about Tristrian who is a really distant acquaintance, it was always specifically about Christian?
I guess its kind of impossible for strangers to know but does it sound like a plausible misunderstanding or more likely to be gaslighting?
If this is the same guy who accused you of vandalizing the atmosphere when you were upset that he tripped you and pushed you on the ground, YES he is gaslighting you. He is a piece of shit and you should dump him for this reason, that reason, and likely many many other reasons as yet undisclosed.
You deserve so much more than this cruel person.
posted by phunniemee at 4:53 AM on July 10, 2021 [105 favorites]
You deserve so much more than this cruel person.
posted by phunniemee at 4:53 AM on July 10, 2021 [105 favorites]
Is this the same boyfriend from your previous question? If so, there is a clear and problematic pattern here.
Even if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume hypothetically that your memory of the Christian/Tristan conversations is faulty, the way he dismissed your concerns and immediately said you are making accusations is totally not okay.
posted by TurkishGolds at 4:53 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
Even if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume hypothetically that your memory of the Christian/Tristan conversations is faulty, the way he dismissed your concerns and immediately said you are making accusations is totally not okay.
posted by TurkishGolds at 4:53 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
Is this the same boyfriend as in your previous ask who pushed and tripped you? Your gut instincts are right. Please take everyone's advice and dump him.
posted by figmyg at 4:55 AM on July 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by figmyg at 4:55 AM on July 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
This guy sounds extremely strange, like well, well out of the ordinary range even of bad boyfriends. There is no good, reassuring explanation for anything you describe. You should plan carefully and break up with him before you're writing other, weirder and more disturbing questions about him. Hopefully you don't live with him - remove all your stuff that you may have left at his apartment, break up with him by phone, block him, and don't go places by yourself for a while.
posted by Frowner at 5:05 AM on July 10, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 5:05 AM on July 10, 2021 [37 favorites]
Your instincts are telling you to get away from this man. Listen to them.
posted by fight or flight at 5:14 AM on July 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 5:14 AM on July 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
I came in here to say that someone I know was frequently not remembering entire conversations/interactions and denying they happened. I arranged for cognitive testing and they scored perfectly. But still they kept forgetting whole conversations. Sometimes within hours. After some medical drama it was discovered that for medical reasons they'd been hypoxic (low oxygen) for months, which affects your ability to form memories. After medical treatment the memory problems stopped.
That's what I came here to say. So just FYI, I was fully prepared to give the benefit of the doubt here. Now I read the rest, and instead I'm saying this: Dump him.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:34 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
That's what I came here to say. So just FYI, I was fully prepared to give the benefit of the doubt here. Now I read the rest, and instead I'm saying this: Dump him.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:34 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
It's possible that he's not gaslighting you in this specific instance, but the fact that you feel a need to ask internet strangers indicates that at some level you just don't trust him - and that can be a red flag in itself. Plus if your previous Ask is about him - then I agree that you should dump this guy. You deserve better.
posted by FencingGal at 5:37 AM on July 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 5:37 AM on July 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
i still don't know if what my ex was doing to me was gaslighting or not. is it only gaslighting if they intend to make you feel crazy or is is it gaslighting if they just benefit from inappropriately making you feel crazy.
for years, i just took her at her word that i misremembered some event or conversation. more significantly this happened about agreements we made about money and parenting decisions about our children. she would do things that looked like breaking our agreements to me, but she would just say i remembered wrong. it happened often and in front of other people including my parents and my kids.
i would apologize and she would look at me pityingly and roll her eyes about me to our kids and it was known that i couldn't be relied on to recall conversations and family events etc. i would feel genuinely grateful that i had a partner to help me.
i started journaling at some point for other reasons and then a situation occurred that i had written about as it happened. it was months later and she was telling me my memory of an agreement was all wrong. i looked in my journal and i was right and i showed her even but she insisted i was wrong, i had written it down wrong, i could not be relied on to remember these things. this felt bad to me but the thing that really set off alarms was that she was angry that i had written down our agreement at all.
this happened a couple of more times with my personal journal and that was when i started actually keeping a logbook of our discussions and i found out that she was misremembering things all of the time and misstating our agreements after time had passed. i would write it down in front of her and even telling her what i was writing but if i showed it to her later, she would still always insist i was in the wrong. there were a lot of contributing factors, and it still took almost two years, but this was what ultimately led to the end of our marriage.
maybe this is damage from more than a decade of being potentially gaslit, but i still don't know if her intent was to gaslight me. was she trying to make me feel crazy and incompetent, or was she just so caught up in her vision of how things should be, or so frightened by the idea that her memory was faulty, that she just insisted things happened the way she wanted them to have happened?
sorry for the long comment. her and i have very few interactions these days, but something happened this past week and it made me feel like i was right back in the middle of it again and i am still reeling a bit.
posted by mumblelard at 5:50 AM on July 10, 2021 [35 favorites]
for years, i just took her at her word that i misremembered some event or conversation. more significantly this happened about agreements we made about money and parenting decisions about our children. she would do things that looked like breaking our agreements to me, but she would just say i remembered wrong. it happened often and in front of other people including my parents and my kids.
i would apologize and she would look at me pityingly and roll her eyes about me to our kids and it was known that i couldn't be relied on to recall conversations and family events etc. i would feel genuinely grateful that i had a partner to help me.
i started journaling at some point for other reasons and then a situation occurred that i had written about as it happened. it was months later and she was telling me my memory of an agreement was all wrong. i looked in my journal and i was right and i showed her even but she insisted i was wrong, i had written it down wrong, i could not be relied on to remember these things. this felt bad to me but the thing that really set off alarms was that she was angry that i had written down our agreement at all.
this happened a couple of more times with my personal journal and that was when i started actually keeping a logbook of our discussions and i found out that she was misremembering things all of the time and misstating our agreements after time had passed. i would write it down in front of her and even telling her what i was writing but if i showed it to her later, she would still always insist i was in the wrong. there were a lot of contributing factors, and it still took almost two years, but this was what ultimately led to the end of our marriage.
maybe this is damage from more than a decade of being potentially gaslit, but i still don't know if her intent was to gaslight me. was she trying to make me feel crazy and incompetent, or was she just so caught up in her vision of how things should be, or so frightened by the idea that her memory was faulty, that she just insisted things happened the way she wanted them to have happened?
sorry for the long comment. her and i have very few interactions these days, but something happened this past week and it made me feel like i was right back in the middle of it again and i am still reeling a bit.
posted by mumblelard at 5:50 AM on July 10, 2021 [35 favorites]
Judging from this question and those you're previously asked, this guy is going to continue to undermine your own faith in yourself and your own judgment. The longer this pattern goes on, the harder it will be for you to leave and strike out on your own because your faith in yourself will be shattered. It doesn't have to be that way.
You can be on your own and build a quality life for yourself, but it needs to start as soon as you can do it. Lean on local women's support orgs if they exist, including domestic violence support orgs. It's not important that he hasn't hit you (yet). Make it clear there's a pattern of gaslighting going on.
I'd also suggest therapy or domestic violence support groups ASAP. I suspect he's not the first person in your life to do this.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 6:27 AM on July 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
You can be on your own and build a quality life for yourself, but it needs to start as soon as you can do it. Lean on local women's support orgs if they exist, including domestic violence support orgs. It's not important that he hasn't hit you (yet). Make it clear there's a pattern of gaslighting going on.
I'd also suggest therapy or domestic violence support groups ASAP. I suspect he's not the first person in your life to do this.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 6:27 AM on July 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok it seems that the incident itself isn't really clearly gaslighting which is what i was asking
posted by mosswinter at 7:14 AM on July 10, 2021
posted by mosswinter at 7:14 AM on July 10, 2021
I mean, are you looking for a clear intent which we cannot know, given that we can’t be inside his head? What is clear is that:
- you two had a hella weird conversation multiple times
- the conversation sounds not chill at all. Like, was this funny to you two? This kind of conversation, if it’s a misunderstanding, should be funny
- dude does not handle being “wrong” very well at all
Do I have this right? Red Flag City.
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on July 10, 2021 [21 favorites]
- you two had a hella weird conversation multiple times
- the conversation sounds not chill at all. Like, was this funny to you two? This kind of conversation, if it’s a misunderstanding, should be funny
- dude does not handle being “wrong” very well at all
Do I have this right? Red Flag City.
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on July 10, 2021 [21 favorites]
Ok it seems that the incident itself isn't really clearly gaslighting which is what i was asking
Nope. The incident itself was very clearly gaslighting. And combined with your earlier question, which I hadn't seen, my view is that you need to get out fast before something more sinister happens.
There is no way this can be a misunderstanding. At all. None. Nope.
The question about gaslighting raised above is about intent. But I feel this is a misdirected question. In my view, the gaslighter doesn't need to have a grand plan, thinking years ahead, for it to be gaslighting. In most cases I think it begins as more of a tactic, a way of remaining in control of the situation, and then only when the gaslighter realizes the potential and the power do they begin to use it systematically.
I have experienced this in a professional setting as well as in my personal life, and I am pretty sure that the people who do this don't start out as evil schemers. They are reacting to something they don't understand or as stated above, can't control. But that does not excuse their actions or lessen the harm they do. And when they resort to gaslighting and physical violence, they probably have some serious mental health issues that you cannot help them with.
Let me tell you about an incident with my ex where I did have the right reaction, but didn't take the right action.
One day as the two of us were alone in the apartment, he passed gas. I said something like "that was a killer", all in good fun. And he denied it. It was truly ridiculous. I was the only other person there. So as the innocent young person I was, I was concerned, and said it wasn't natural if he couldn't feel his body like that, and that we should call for a doctor's appointment. And he admitted he had lied. I let it go. It would take another six years before I realized he lied about everything, even things, like this occasion, where there was absolutely no need to lie. What happened during those six years, I don't wish on my worst enemy.
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on July 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
Nope. The incident itself was very clearly gaslighting. And combined with your earlier question, which I hadn't seen, my view is that you need to get out fast before something more sinister happens.
There is no way this can be a misunderstanding. At all. None. Nope.
The question about gaslighting raised above is about intent. But I feel this is a misdirected question. In my view, the gaslighter doesn't need to have a grand plan, thinking years ahead, for it to be gaslighting. In most cases I think it begins as more of a tactic, a way of remaining in control of the situation, and then only when the gaslighter realizes the potential and the power do they begin to use it systematically.
I have experienced this in a professional setting as well as in my personal life, and I am pretty sure that the people who do this don't start out as evil schemers. They are reacting to something they don't understand or as stated above, can't control. But that does not excuse their actions or lessen the harm they do. And when they resort to gaslighting and physical violence, they probably have some serious mental health issues that you cannot help them with.
Let me tell you about an incident with my ex where I did have the right reaction, but didn't take the right action.
One day as the two of us were alone in the apartment, he passed gas. I said something like "that was a killer", all in good fun. And he denied it. It was truly ridiculous. I was the only other person there. So as the innocent young person I was, I was concerned, and said it wasn't natural if he couldn't feel his body like that, and that we should call for a doctor's appointment. And he admitted he had lied. I let it go. It would take another six years before I realized he lied about everything, even things, like this occasion, where there was absolutely no need to lie. What happened during those six years, I don't wish on my worst enemy.
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on July 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
There is no way to say with 100 % certainty whether or not something is gaslighting. Not from such a small sample.
I wonder why you need a definite answer, though. Do you believe this red flag needs to be unequivocally gaslighting in order for you to act on it?
posted by Omnomnom at 7:48 AM on July 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
I wonder why you need a definite answer, though. Do you believe this red flag needs to be unequivocally gaslighting in order for you to act on it?
posted by Omnomnom at 7:48 AM on July 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
You don’t even trust your own series of events and have now posted to a forum of internet strangers to try and convince yourself it was just a misunderstanding. It sounds like your confidence in your own version of events is already being undermined by your boyfriend. The simplest answer is usually correct. Yes, it seems like you’re not only being gaslit but also this person you’re dating is an unsavory character. (Reading the other comments..he tripped you on purpose?!) I write this as someone who didn’t trust their own gut and kept making stories to tell myself to stay with an abusive ex. I can see that same pattern here for what it’s worth, I wish I had gotten out ASAP. If you don’t want to listen to a bunch of strangers, at least confide in someone you know and trust, or start keeping a journal and keep track of these stories and feelings for yourself. I fear that the longer you stay with this person, the worse it’ll get.
ETA: I just read your last question, and I think you should reread it yourself as if it’s a dear friend or someone you don’t know. This is extremely troubling and I would ask you to strongly consider that when you’re in a good relationship, you won’t need to justify any of what your partner does to you in the form of “is this just silly or was it malicious”. You deserve better..way better. I hope you can take this to heart.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 8:08 AM on July 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
ETA: I just read your last question, and I think you should reread it yourself as if it’s a dear friend or someone you don’t know. This is extremely troubling and I would ask you to strongly consider that when you’re in a good relationship, you won’t need to justify any of what your partner does to you in the form of “is this just silly or was it malicious”. You deserve better..way better. I hope you can take this to heart.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 8:08 AM on July 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I personally think it's gaslighting, if that helps. I think he's messing with you because he likes to mess with you and possibly others. I would be very curious to know why this Christian fellow is threatening him - tired of being messed with? Or are all his friends the kinds of adults who threaten others? Either way, this whole thing sounds bad. Your other questions seem to suggest that you are often in difficult situations and sometimes lack the confidence to name them and extricate yourself from them even though they trouble you.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on July 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
And honestly, the being threatened by this other guy thing? You weren't there for that incident, so I assume you are relying on your boyfriend's related experience of this event.
If I had a dollar for every time a man reacted to a perfectly reasonable, fact-based, accusatory statement as a personal attack/threat I could retire to Crone Island right now today. It's so common that it's a trope of abusive men. It's so common there are memes about it.
posted by phunniemee at 8:31 AM on July 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
If I had a dollar for every time a man reacted to a perfectly reasonable, fact-based, accusatory statement as a personal attack/threat I could retire to Crone Island right now today. It's so common that it's a trope of abusive men. It's so common there are memes about it.
posted by phunniemee at 8:31 AM on July 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
The fact that you feel uncomfortable, rightly so, about his incongruous behavior is enough-- there doesn't have to be an a-ha, here is the binomial expansion equation of exact evidence that directly and unequivocally proves that boyfriend is undeniably fucking with me moment(s). Your feelings in partnerships are really kinda all that matter. Your feelings about something that should be minor (a disagreement over various names) pushed you to ask a group of internet strangers to dissect your boyfriend's motives, something you yourself, the actual person who knows him, feel unable to trust yourself to do.
And you are pushing back a little against the exact answers to the exact question that you yourself voluntarily asked. I would say this goes back to erosion of trust. I would say that ties back to being repeatedly gas-lit. But you're the only one in this relationship, and you must decide for yourself if you feel you deserve this type of mistreatment. No chorus of internet people can really say or do anything for you, even or especially if they are "right" about your BF.
Interrogate this situation and your defensiveness within it. The key lies there. If you can.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:35 AM on July 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
And you are pushing back a little against the exact answers to the exact question that you yourself voluntarily asked. I would say this goes back to erosion of trust. I would say that ties back to being repeatedly gas-lit. But you're the only one in this relationship, and you must decide for yourself if you feel you deserve this type of mistreatment. No chorus of internet people can really say or do anything for you, even or especially if they are "right" about your BF.
Interrogate this situation and your defensiveness within it. The key lies there. If you can.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:35 AM on July 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
The only scenario in which this is NOT gaslighting is if he literally cannot recall the conversation in memory, as in he was in blackout, experiencing disassociation, or for some other reason neurologically unable to form memories at the time of the conversation, and so in his perspective he is saying it didn't happen because he truly has no memories of it. Any of those possibilities are bad, for various reasons.
Here's the thing, though: People who can't recall a previous conversation/event/whatever that someone is telling them about have basically two forks in the road to take. One is to give the person who does remember the benefit of the doubt, to think "well this person wouldn't make up this conversation so I guess I believe them that it happened, even though it freaks me out that I don't remember it." The other is "I can't trust this person so they're lying to me, I will stand my ground that it did not happen" OR "I cannot let on that I can't remember a conversation so I will insist it's not true until they give up."
I guess there is a third fork, which you'll see in people with earlier stages of dementia and other cognitive memory-formation defects: they will pretend to suddenly remember the thing you're telling them about, so you don't suspect them of having serious memory loss. Or maybe their memory was legitimately jogged and they do then fully or partially recall it.
I have not-great memory-formation when I'm tired, especially if I'm tired and distracted too (like by my phone or the tv). I sometimes have conversations with my husband late in the evening that I don't really remember, where he'll be like "yeah we already talked about this" when I bring it up again later, and I like and trust him so instead of being an asshole about it I just ask him to catch me up on what we said.
Consider the intensity of the response compared with the stakes of the actual conversation. Something's not right.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:09 AM on July 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
Here's the thing, though: People who can't recall a previous conversation/event/whatever that someone is telling them about have basically two forks in the road to take. One is to give the person who does remember the benefit of the doubt, to think "well this person wouldn't make up this conversation so I guess I believe them that it happened, even though it freaks me out that I don't remember it." The other is "I can't trust this person so they're lying to me, I will stand my ground that it did not happen" OR "I cannot let on that I can't remember a conversation so I will insist it's not true until they give up."
I guess there is a third fork, which you'll see in people with earlier stages of dementia and other cognitive memory-formation defects: they will pretend to suddenly remember the thing you're telling them about, so you don't suspect them of having serious memory loss. Or maybe their memory was legitimately jogged and they do then fully or partially recall it.
I have not-great memory-formation when I'm tired, especially if I'm tired and distracted too (like by my phone or the tv). I sometimes have conversations with my husband late in the evening that I don't really remember, where he'll be like "yeah we already talked about this" when I bring it up again later, and I like and trust him so instead of being an asshole about it I just ask him to catch me up on what we said.
Consider the intensity of the response compared with the stakes of the actual conversation. Something's not right.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:09 AM on July 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
Consider the intensity of the response compared with the stakes of the actual conversation. Something's not right.
STRONG second for this.
I mean, look, I work with a person with a really shitty memory (I don't know why it's terrible, I assume there's some medical factor in play but I am not his relative or doctor) who will regularly angrily claim that certain conversations did or didn't happen, when I & others clearly know the opposite is true.
The thing is, the anger is kind of understandable, as a defense mechanism, because the context of the conversations about the conversations is, "You fucked up something important. You either failed to pass information on to the relevant parties or you were given information and failed to act on it and now everyone is scrambling to deal with the fallout." The person's shitty memory is causing problems (sometimes severe) for the business and co-workers. And when they're confronted about it, they have a knee-jerk defense reaction & claim this conversation never happened. Because if it never happened they can't have caused the fuckup. This is a shitty reaction, but it's understandable.
Your boyfriend is having a similar reaction about . . . what? Some minor joking about the name of some guy you barely know? (And also seconding why the fuck is Christian/Tristian/Tristam/whoever threatening your boyfriend?) This kind of misunderstanding about a name is the kind of thing you shrug off as a weird mishearing/misremembering thing, you don't turn it around and angrily accuse your girlfriend of accusing you and lying to you.
Is he gaslighting you, which involves him knowing that those conversations happened & claiming otherwise? We can't know 110% for sure because we can't read his mind.
Is his reaction to this disagreement WAY out of line and over the top? HELL YES.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:15 AM on July 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
STRONG second for this.
I mean, look, I work with a person with a really shitty memory (I don't know why it's terrible, I assume there's some medical factor in play but I am not his relative or doctor) who will regularly angrily claim that certain conversations did or didn't happen, when I & others clearly know the opposite is true.
The thing is, the anger is kind of understandable, as a defense mechanism, because the context of the conversations about the conversations is, "You fucked up something important. You either failed to pass information on to the relevant parties or you were given information and failed to act on it and now everyone is scrambling to deal with the fallout." The person's shitty memory is causing problems (sometimes severe) for the business and co-workers. And when they're confronted about it, they have a knee-jerk defense reaction & claim this conversation never happened. Because if it never happened they can't have caused the fuckup. This is a shitty reaction, but it's understandable.
Your boyfriend is having a similar reaction about . . . what? Some minor joking about the name of some guy you barely know? (And also seconding why the fuck is Christian/Tristian/Tristam/whoever threatening your boyfriend?) This kind of misunderstanding about a name is the kind of thing you shrug off as a weird mishearing/misremembering thing, you don't turn it around and angrily accuse your girlfriend of accusing you and lying to you.
Is he gaslighting you, which involves him knowing that those conversations happened & claiming otherwise? We can't know 110% for sure because we can't read his mind.
Is his reaction to this disagreement WAY out of line and over the top? HELL YES.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:15 AM on July 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
It just...seems like this guy has a history of making you feel confused and uncomfortable. I get why it feels important to pin down exactly what happened here, but I think maybe the bigger pattern is more important? His behaviour seems to leave you feeling like this quite often, and I don't think that's a good sign.
posted by BlueNorther at 10:31 AM on July 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 10:31 AM on July 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
The firm certainty that you are wrong and that there is something wrong with you for remembering it differently is your clue that you are being gas lit.
If the other person is willing to accept their memory could be at fault, feels it's not important, makes you feel okay about the miscommunication, goes to effort to ensure that miscommunication doesn't occur again, is relaxed and emotionally stable - then you are probably not being gas lit.
People that love you protect your ego and your mental health. People that don't love you don't protect them. People that are bad for you do things that are bad for your ego and your mental health.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:09 AM on July 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
If the other person is willing to accept their memory could be at fault, feels it's not important, makes you feel okay about the miscommunication, goes to effort to ensure that miscommunication doesn't occur again, is relaxed and emotionally stable - then you are probably not being gas lit.
People that love you protect your ego and your mental health. People that don't love you don't protect them. People that are bad for you do things that are bad for your ego and your mental health.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:09 AM on July 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
100% that is gaslighting, whether intentional or not is irrelevant.
posted by lab.beetle at 11:22 AM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by lab.beetle at 11:22 AM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
This combined with your previous question has me incredibly concerned. You remember it clearly. You didn't accuse him of anything you simply pointed out a fact. This person is testing your boundaries and seeing how much he can get away with. Run fast, run far. And if you're not going to do that (but really you should do that), stop questioning yourself. He behaves incredulously when you assert yourself. That is bad news.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by pazazygeek at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'd say it's totally gaslighting - there are 3 instances of him messing with you here - the initial "his name isn't christian it's Tristian"
Then next time you discuss the name it's "Tristian or Tristam"
Then the next time he's all "what? his name is Christian, we never talked about this you're accusing me of things I didn't do" he's getting defensive because you're calling him out on one of his lies.
Gaslighting is not any one particular incident, it's a pattern of behaviour that is ongoing - this particular incident has been spread over the course of a few months. I'd strongly urge you to take a close look at any other "misunderstandings" you guys have had - people do misunderstand each other sometimes, but in a decent relationship, both parties go "huh, weird, oh well, glad we understand each other now" His reaction of "You're accusing me of things I didn't do" is really hurtful to you. If you stay with this person and they continue treating you that way, it will wear down your confidence, and make you doubt everything you experience. Please don't stay around someone who thinks it's ok to do this to you, it's really damaging. These are not scars that you want to carry around the rest of your life.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:56 PM on July 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
Then next time you discuss the name it's "Tristian or Tristam"
Then the next time he's all "what? his name is Christian, we never talked about this you're accusing me of things I didn't do" he's getting defensive because you're calling him out on one of his lies.
Gaslighting is not any one particular incident, it's a pattern of behaviour that is ongoing - this particular incident has been spread over the course of a few months. I'd strongly urge you to take a close look at any other "misunderstandings" you guys have had - people do misunderstand each other sometimes, but in a decent relationship, both parties go "huh, weird, oh well, glad we understand each other now" His reaction of "You're accusing me of things I didn't do" is really hurtful to you. If you stay with this person and they continue treating you that way, it will wear down your confidence, and make you doubt everything you experience. Please don't stay around someone who thinks it's ok to do this to you, it's really damaging. These are not scars that you want to carry around the rest of your life.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:56 PM on July 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
You distinguish a misunderstanding from gaslightling by noting that when you bring it up with the other person, they listen you out and then they say, "oh, okay, this seems to have been a misunderstanding because..." or, "in fact I was wrong about the guy being called Tristian/Tristam/Tristram [isn't it Tristan simply btw.? That would be less weird] , sorry for being confusing about it."
That's how misunderstandings are or ought to be negotiated.
Gaslightling is just: gaslighting. You got a case here.
posted by Namlit at 1:20 PM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
That's how misunderstandings are or ought to be negotiated.
Gaslightling is just: gaslighting. You got a case here.
posted by Namlit at 1:20 PM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Please please please start journaling regularly.
The way you're thinking about this reminds me so much of a previous relationship I was in where I steadily began to doubt my own perception of things. I entertained increasingly insane scenarios rather than accept the truth, which was that my partner was mentally ill and imposing narratives on our shared experience (and about my character) that made no sense and were utterly wrong. The erosion of my sense of reality was enormously damaging to me; I'm still in therapy for it years later.
Even if you're not willing to accept the overwhelming consensus here that this behaviour right now is gaslighting, at least give yourself a mechanism to discover for yourself if he does this in the future. Journal a lot. Write things down as they happened. Go back and consult this record regularly when something like this happens again (because it almost certainly will, given who your boyfriend seems to be).
posted by sir jective at 4:16 PM on July 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
The way you're thinking about this reminds me so much of a previous relationship I was in where I steadily began to doubt my own perception of things. I entertained increasingly insane scenarios rather than accept the truth, which was that my partner was mentally ill and imposing narratives on our shared experience (and about my character) that made no sense and were utterly wrong. The erosion of my sense of reality was enormously damaging to me; I'm still in therapy for it years later.
Even if you're not willing to accept the overwhelming consensus here that this behaviour right now is gaslighting, at least give yourself a mechanism to discover for yourself if he does this in the future. Journal a lot. Write things down as they happened. Go back and consult this record regularly when something like this happens again (because it almost certainly will, given who your boyfriend seems to be).
posted by sir jective at 4:16 PM on July 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
Oh honey, no no no no.
Please, get out of this relationship.
At the very least, do this:
- Call a domestic violence line. Even better, call one that is local to you - and go see them in person. Or meet someone for coffee. Or... anything. But something. Please.
- Tell them you're having a hard time figuring out if this guy is abusive or not.
- Tell them you don't know if you should stay in this relationship or not.
- Tell them you're not sure if the problem is you or him.
- And then tell them EVERYTHING - REALLY - that you've told us. Or if you're not sure how to do this, show them or link to or even read them your questions here.
Please. And then LISTEN.
And if they offer therapy, or offer to help - accept it.
Please?
posted by stormyteal at 6:59 PM on July 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Please, get out of this relationship.
At the very least, do this:
- Call a domestic violence line. Even better, call one that is local to you - and go see them in person. Or meet someone for coffee. Or... anything. But something. Please.
- Tell them you're having a hard time figuring out if this guy is abusive or not.
- Tell them you don't know if you should stay in this relationship or not.
- Tell them you're not sure if the problem is you or him.
- And then tell them EVERYTHING - REALLY - that you've told us. Or if you're not sure how to do this, show them or link to or even read them your questions here.
Please. And then LISTEN.
And if they offer therapy, or offer to help - accept it.
Please?
posted by stormyteal at 6:59 PM on July 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
This man is not to be trusted. Whether it's gaslighting or not, many many people are telling you that it appears you're not (emotionally, at minimum) safe with him.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 10:42 PM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 10:42 PM on July 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
But my immediate reaction was like wtf? he's clearly gaslighting me.
In my previous marriage, I had this exact same reaction to a weird, almost mundane "misunderstanding" with my ex-husband. It was so mundane, and yet, the same as you, IMMEDIATELY alarm bells went off in my head, screaming "HE IS GASLIGHTING YOU RIGHT NOW."
It was so strange because it was such a mundane thing to lie about. And yet, lying about a perfectly mundane thing is perhaps the most sinister kind of lie, because what other possible purpose could there be, except to mess with my head?
It was that I knew for a fact he was wrong. And the instinctual knowledge that he was not wrong by accident, it wasn't an innocent mistake or misunderstanding or forgetting, it was an intentional lie. And that it was such a completely mundane thing to intentionally lie about. It wasn't a lie to cover up something, to make himself look good or look less bad, it wasn't a lie that I could understand. Every fiber of my being knew it was gaslighting. Literally the hair stood up on the back of my neck, because I KNEW.
In hindsight, I could see that he was starting to become controlling and abusive, slowly and subtly. He would wear me down in little ways, making me out to be the illogical, irrational, over-sensitive one. But the gaslighting moment was the first time I really felt like I was in trouble, like he meant me harm. And that I would be falling in deeper trouble if I stayed with him. Please, please listen to your gut reaction here. It's telling you something real.
It's the first and only time I've ever had that sensation. I've had an ex-boyfriend lie to me for sure. But a plain lie is not the same as gaslighting. The lie hurt like hell, it made me mad as hell, and I felt dumb for ever having trusted him... but it didn't make me feel like I was in danger.
And let me say that my current husband is a bit of a mischievous jokester. He likes to spin yarns sometimes just to see if I'll fall for them. We've also had several disagreements about past events and how they happened, like who said what, or what happened when. But never not once did I get that same feeling of alarm again with anyone else that I felt with my ex-husband. I've never felt that sensation of malice again.
Ok it seems that the incident itself isn't really clearly gaslighting
It was.
posted by keep it under cover at 12:37 AM on July 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
In my previous marriage, I had this exact same reaction to a weird, almost mundane "misunderstanding" with my ex-husband. It was so mundane, and yet, the same as you, IMMEDIATELY alarm bells went off in my head, screaming "HE IS GASLIGHTING YOU RIGHT NOW."
It was so strange because it was such a mundane thing to lie about. And yet, lying about a perfectly mundane thing is perhaps the most sinister kind of lie, because what other possible purpose could there be, except to mess with my head?
It was that I knew for a fact he was wrong. And the instinctual knowledge that he was not wrong by accident, it wasn't an innocent mistake or misunderstanding or forgetting, it was an intentional lie. And that it was such a completely mundane thing to intentionally lie about. It wasn't a lie to cover up something, to make himself look good or look less bad, it wasn't a lie that I could understand. Every fiber of my being knew it was gaslighting. Literally the hair stood up on the back of my neck, because I KNEW.
In hindsight, I could see that he was starting to become controlling and abusive, slowly and subtly. He would wear me down in little ways, making me out to be the illogical, irrational, over-sensitive one. But the gaslighting moment was the first time I really felt like I was in trouble, like he meant me harm. And that I would be falling in deeper trouble if I stayed with him. Please, please listen to your gut reaction here. It's telling you something real.
It's the first and only time I've ever had that sensation. I've had an ex-boyfriend lie to me for sure. But a plain lie is not the same as gaslighting. The lie hurt like hell, it made me mad as hell, and I felt dumb for ever having trusted him... but it didn't make me feel like I was in danger.
And let me say that my current husband is a bit of a mischievous jokester. He likes to spin yarns sometimes just to see if I'll fall for them. We've also had several disagreements about past events and how they happened, like who said what, or what happened when. But never not once did I get that same feeling of alarm again with anyone else that I felt with my ex-husband. I've never felt that sensation of malice again.
Ok it seems that the incident itself isn't really clearly gaslighting
It was.
posted by keep it under cover at 12:37 AM on July 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
^^^Please please please start journaling regularly.
sir jective's suggestion is everything.
Please write down the events in your life as soon as possible after they have occurred. (Write text messages and send them to yourself if necessary.)
This written record will be a way to validate your memories if -- more likely when -- your boyfriend does something else that is mean, unfriendly, hurtful, or bizarre, and then later tries to pretend that it never happened.
It will tell you a lot if you are reluctant to keep a journal because you think your boyfriend would be suspicious, would think that journaling was silly or self-involved, or would try to pry into your journals.
Take care of yourself. I am worried, and I will keep you in my thoughts.
posted by virago at 11:43 AM on July 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
sir jective's suggestion is everything.
Please write down the events in your life as soon as possible after they have occurred. (Write text messages and send them to yourself if necessary.)
This written record will be a way to validate your memories if -- more likely when -- your boyfriend does something else that is mean, unfriendly, hurtful, or bizarre, and then later tries to pretend that it never happened.
It will tell you a lot if you are reluctant to keep a journal because you think your boyfriend would be suspicious, would think that journaling was silly or self-involved, or would try to pry into your journals.
Take care of yourself. I am worried, and I will keep you in my thoughts.
posted by virago at 11:43 AM on July 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
The only person who may have any objectivity about this situation is Ch/Tristian. Do you have a way of contacting him (informally and without your boyfriend knowing) and asking him for his version? Or a mutual friend, if only to establish what his name actually is?
posted by Hogshead at 12:16 PM on July 11, 2021
posted by Hogshead at 12:16 PM on July 11, 2021
This is so problematic that it’s hard to know where to begin. Then I read your previous post about presumably the same person, and this Stranger on the Internet gives you permission to break up. Now. Do Not Pass Go &Cet.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:06 PM on July 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:06 PM on July 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Here is what very probably happened: Christian told you his name. Boyfriend misheard it. Later, you discussed it, and Boyfriend "corrected" you, as you remember. Later still, when you were not present, Boyfriend was corrected about Christian's name. He felt embarrassed. Lastly, you brought Christian's name up again, and Boyfriend lied to you to avoid admitting being wrong to you. Some people find it deeply humiliating to ever admit they don't know something, or are wrong about something, because their self-image includes being a Smart Person who Knows Things.
I will leave it to you to decide what the implications are of someone being willing to lie about unimportant things to protect their image in front of their partner.
posted by agentofselection at 9:38 AM on July 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I will leave it to you to decide what the implications are of someone being willing to lie about unimportant things to protect their image in front of their partner.
posted by agentofselection at 9:38 AM on July 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Hello, I am a person like your boyfriend. I have done the "playful" violence thing and I have pouted at my partner when she was upset because of something I had done. I have acted like entire conversations we've had, never happened, over and over and over again. I have gotten defensive when something uncomfortable was happening and blamed my partner for ruining the mood. I think agentofselection is correct in that he messed up the name and then lied about it because he felt embarassed. But I can tell you that this is the tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip of a massive iceberg. The way he responds to you, the shutting you down, blaming you, instantly taking a victim role and casting you as an aggressor, are signs of someone who is completely disconnected from life and filled with rage and hostility towards themselves and others.
At this stage I would wager he is basically trapped in some kind of internal mental hell and he is using your company and your love to make his life bearable. The way this works is that he tells himself a story that he is powerful enough to change reality, in order to escape some uncomfortable truths, and he proves this power by trying to get others to agree to his delusions. He cannot ever admit to being wrong because that would mean he is not all-powerful which means all the things he is running from -- no doubt some heavy trauma plus a lifetime of guilt and shame from hurting others -- would come flooding back all at once. For him it feels like his life depends on convincing you that black is white. If you ever stand your ground and refuse to bend, you can expect escalating aggression, emotional violence, and eventually physical violence. He may seem reluctant to use these weapons, but he's already shown that he will hurt you when he feels bad and once you cross that line, you tend to keep going. The endgame here is suicide or murder. There's nothing to really stop the progression unless he has enough compassion left to listen to you and seek help in a program for abusers but I have to say... I myself have only got to this point of self-awareness myself after ten years of my partner exhausting her life energy in fighting me... and your dude seems comparable to me.
Over time you can expect him to make increasing demands on you to make his life for comfortable, and for him to gradually withdraw closeness, intimacy, and anything else he is giving you. He will become increasingly obsessed with maintaining his delusions and increasingly frustrated and angry at you for failing to fit into them (which you could never do, as a real person). He will turn to addictions to escape these uncomfortable feelings. He will get more and more touchy and will blow up angrily more and more, and will always always blame you. He will accuse you of ruining his life and will wage a campaign to undermine your agency and power. Confusingly he will occasionally seem to beam out love at you and make it seem like he is your dream partner, but if you watch carefully you will see that this "love" is usually given as a reward for compliance, or as a gesture when he senses you're pulling away. His actual self is a twisted, mangled mess. He may give the appearance of trying very hard to love you; he may actually be trying very hard, but he is so deep in his delusions and lies that he will very rarely ever break through the surface and turn up for you in any real way.
I want you to understand that you're not crazy for loving this person and hoping for love from him, but, I also want you to understand that this person is kind of like a car that works fine sometimes but drives straight into a wall every other day, especially on days when you really need to go somewhere, and when you try to open up the hood to see if you can fix it, you get blasted with a flamethrower. I also know that it's not exactly easy to find a non-abusive man out there because abuse and masculinity and patriarchy are all intertwined. Just, be aware and arm yourself with as much knowledge understanding as you can get.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:45 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
At this stage I would wager he is basically trapped in some kind of internal mental hell and he is using your company and your love to make his life bearable. The way this works is that he tells himself a story that he is powerful enough to change reality, in order to escape some uncomfortable truths, and he proves this power by trying to get others to agree to his delusions. He cannot ever admit to being wrong because that would mean he is not all-powerful which means all the things he is running from -- no doubt some heavy trauma plus a lifetime of guilt and shame from hurting others -- would come flooding back all at once. For him it feels like his life depends on convincing you that black is white. If you ever stand your ground and refuse to bend, you can expect escalating aggression, emotional violence, and eventually physical violence. He may seem reluctant to use these weapons, but he's already shown that he will hurt you when he feels bad and once you cross that line, you tend to keep going. The endgame here is suicide or murder. There's nothing to really stop the progression unless he has enough compassion left to listen to you and seek help in a program for abusers but I have to say... I myself have only got to this point of self-awareness myself after ten years of my partner exhausting her life energy in fighting me... and your dude seems comparable to me.
Over time you can expect him to make increasing demands on you to make his life for comfortable, and for him to gradually withdraw closeness, intimacy, and anything else he is giving you. He will become increasingly obsessed with maintaining his delusions and increasingly frustrated and angry at you for failing to fit into them (which you could never do, as a real person). He will turn to addictions to escape these uncomfortable feelings. He will get more and more touchy and will blow up angrily more and more, and will always always blame you. He will accuse you of ruining his life and will wage a campaign to undermine your agency and power. Confusingly he will occasionally seem to beam out love at you and make it seem like he is your dream partner, but if you watch carefully you will see that this "love" is usually given as a reward for compliance, or as a gesture when he senses you're pulling away. His actual self is a twisted, mangled mess. He may give the appearance of trying very hard to love you; he may actually be trying very hard, but he is so deep in his delusions and lies that he will very rarely ever break through the surface and turn up for you in any real way.
I want you to understand that you're not crazy for loving this person and hoping for love from him, but, I also want you to understand that this person is kind of like a car that works fine sometimes but drives straight into a wall every other day, especially on days when you really need to go somewhere, and when you try to open up the hood to see if you can fix it, you get blasted with a flamethrower. I also know that it's not exactly easy to find a non-abusive man out there because abuse and masculinity and patriarchy are all intertwined. Just, be aware and arm yourself with as much knowledge understanding as you can get.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:45 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
There is also this: A week or so ago bf was being threatened by Christian when I wasn't there and he was worried about this.. If your BF is getting threatened by random people you all met a few months ago, you should dump him already. Obviously there are exceptions. But regular people don't get into situations like that, regardless of what they might say. Again, I know this from experience.
I'm not saying that people with unusual lives are not worth knowing or caring for. But as it is often quoted: put on your own oxygen mask before you help others. In this case it means keeping a safe distance from someone who is not honest with you.
posted by mumimor at 4:28 AM on July 10, 2021 [58 favorites]