Ex wants to know he can count on me as a friend
March 15, 2021 11:12 AM Subscribe
My ex wants to know he can depend on me as a friend because of all the support he gave me while we were together, but I'm not sure if I can promise that
I really appreciate getting different perspectives on relationship issues from MeFi, so am grateful for all range of responses people might have to this. Basically, I've known B for 6 months and we've been romantic with one another for 4 of those. We were always poly and I always made clear to him that I was in a transitional stage in life where I didn't feel ready to commit to anyone. In the last two months, I have lost my attraction for him due to it being clear that we're in different stages in life. We had a conversation about this where I said I would be open to staying friends if he wanted this, but that I was also ok ending our relationship if it was too difficult for us to be friends.
The crux of the situation is that B gave me a lot of support with mental health issues I was experiencing about 3 months into our relationship. He helped me talk through some really difficult times, including my grandparents dying, and was physically with me on a few nights where my anxiety was pretty bad, and would help calm me etc. I don't think it was one sided however - I helped him talk through some tough life decisions, move house and gave him what advice I could on things like relationships and job applications, as well as being there for him emotionally in all the normal ways a partner is. Basically, we were supportive of one another on the normal level of two people in a romantic relationship. After we had the relationship conversation, he sent me a message telling me he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died). He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
I see where he's coming from, but I don't know if I want our future friendship, if we have one, to have that level of involvement and commitment. I wouldn't ask him in the future for the kind of support he gave me when we were together, because that support was based on a certain level of closeness that we don't have anymore. And while I want to be a good friend, I'm not sure I can honestly promise him the level of support he's asking for, mostly because I just don't want to be close with him anymore or have that deep of a relationship.
I'm worried, though, that this is a callous attitude to have and that I'm just afraid of people being dependent on me - I always felt like my mum was too dependent on me when I was growing up, as was my last partner, so I definitely have a fear of 'losing my freedom' by making commitments to others. At the same time, I know our bonds to others are what make life worth living, and I try to support my friends as much as possible, although this is definitely something I want to keep improving, because I only really have 2-3 friendships where I can honestly say I've shown up consistently with a high level of support of the kind B is now asking me to commit to. What should I tell him? Is it true that I've used him and now put him aside (I'm open to this being the case, and I'd like to take responsibility for it if so)?
I really appreciate getting different perspectives on relationship issues from MeFi, so am grateful for all range of responses people might have to this. Basically, I've known B for 6 months and we've been romantic with one another for 4 of those. We were always poly and I always made clear to him that I was in a transitional stage in life where I didn't feel ready to commit to anyone. In the last two months, I have lost my attraction for him due to it being clear that we're in different stages in life. We had a conversation about this where I said I would be open to staying friends if he wanted this, but that I was also ok ending our relationship if it was too difficult for us to be friends.
The crux of the situation is that B gave me a lot of support with mental health issues I was experiencing about 3 months into our relationship. He helped me talk through some really difficult times, including my grandparents dying, and was physically with me on a few nights where my anxiety was pretty bad, and would help calm me etc. I don't think it was one sided however - I helped him talk through some tough life decisions, move house and gave him what advice I could on things like relationships and job applications, as well as being there for him emotionally in all the normal ways a partner is. Basically, we were supportive of one another on the normal level of two people in a romantic relationship. After we had the relationship conversation, he sent me a message telling me he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died). He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
I see where he's coming from, but I don't know if I want our future friendship, if we have one, to have that level of involvement and commitment. I wouldn't ask him in the future for the kind of support he gave me when we were together, because that support was based on a certain level of closeness that we don't have anymore. And while I want to be a good friend, I'm not sure I can honestly promise him the level of support he's asking for, mostly because I just don't want to be close with him anymore or have that deep of a relationship.
I'm worried, though, that this is a callous attitude to have and that I'm just afraid of people being dependent on me - I always felt like my mum was too dependent on me when I was growing up, as was my last partner, so I definitely have a fear of 'losing my freedom' by making commitments to others. At the same time, I know our bonds to others are what make life worth living, and I try to support my friends as much as possible, although this is definitely something I want to keep improving, because I only really have 2-3 friendships where I can honestly say I've shown up consistently with a high level of support of the kind B is now asking me to commit to. What should I tell him? Is it true that I've used him and now put him aside (I'm open to this being the case, and I'd like to take responsibility for it if so)?
Ugh. IMHO you don't owe him anything, although being as kind as you can to people in distress is always a good thing, so I'd suggest you continue to do that within your own boundaries.
When he showed up for you in the middle of the night when your grandma died, that was (apparently) freely offered and accepted and there shouldn't be strings on a gesture like that.
Plus, what would this "commitment" even look like? You say you promise, then if you don't do it at some point (because boundaries) he gets to say "BUT YOU PROMISED!"? That seems unhealthy.
It sounds to me like he's just trying to keep ties with you in some way... which is fine, I guess, but this way is based on guilt and false obligation and that is just a Bad Idea.
posted by nkknkk at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [11 favorites]
When he showed up for you in the middle of the night when your grandma died, that was (apparently) freely offered and accepted and there shouldn't be strings on a gesture like that.
Plus, what would this "commitment" even look like? You say you promise, then if you don't do it at some point (because boundaries) he gets to say "BUT YOU PROMISED!"? That seems unhealthy.
It sounds to me like he's just trying to keep ties with you in some way... which is fine, I guess, but this way is based on guilt and false obligation and that is just a Bad Idea.
posted by nkknkk at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [11 favorites]
Your perspective seems reasonable and not callous.
Romantic relationships often have a different level of support/commitment, and while it can be healthy to also have that (mutual support, etc) with some people one is not in a romantic relationship with, generally that's friendships that have been built up over time, not a recent ex that you "owe" (you do not owe him.)
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:19 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Romantic relationships often have a different level of support/commitment, and while it can be healthy to also have that (mutual support, etc) with some people one is not in a romantic relationship with, generally that's friendships that have been built up over time, not a recent ex that you "owe" (you do not owe him.)
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:19 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, if he is constructing a narrative that he was "used" in this relationship (which he may genuinely feel) but you don't believe it to be true, there's not much you can do about it tbh. You may not be able to correct it, or apply logic to it, or convince him with examples of your mutual support. It may just be how he is healing. It can be difficult for you to let it go when you know it isn't the whole story, but the cleaner you cut ties, the better.
posted by nkknkk at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by nkknkk at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2021 [13 favorites]
your story reminds me of a time when my friend got dumped by her fiancé, and they said they'd "still be friends", and then he got all guilt-trippy on her for not being adequately happy for him about his very-swiftly-entered new relationship. Because "friends."
TLDR no, you can't always be friends with exes, for all kinds of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that your boundaries have shifted in all kinds of ways.
And specifically, no, you don't owe your ex the level of access (emotional support, sexual access, listening time, whatever) that you gave him when he was your partner.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2021 [18 favorites]
TLDR no, you can't always be friends with exes, for all kinds of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that your boundaries have shifted in all kinds of ways.
And specifically, no, you don't owe your ex the level of access (emotional support, sexual access, listening time, whatever) that you gave him when he was your partner.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2021 [18 favorites]
He wants something from you that you cannot and don't want to give. This is often the case in human relationships. The fact that you are exes actually makes this a bit easier, as you have clearly drawn a boundary that says you are not committed to being his emotional support in the way a partner is. It is hard to know someone wants/needs something from you that you don't want to give, and that's probably why you feel confused. It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to commit to his needs in this way. Keep asserting your boundary that you've already made. He will have other people in his life who can fulfil this need for him.
(For comparison in my life, being there in the middle of the night to support me in a calamity would be something I'd expect from my very closest family and friends, not someone I've only known for 6 months and only dated for 4 months, especially not someone who had formally ended the relationship. It's not wrong he wants this from you but it seems unusual to me.)
posted by Balthamos at 11:24 AM on March 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
(For comparison in my life, being there in the middle of the night to support me in a calamity would be something I'd expect from my very closest family and friends, not someone I've only known for 6 months and only dated for 4 months, especially not someone who had formally ended the relationship. It's not wrong he wants this from you but it seems unusual to me.)
posted by Balthamos at 11:24 AM on March 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
The support that we give in relationships is not a transaction. You don’t owe him anything and it’s really manipulative of him to say that you “need” to show that you value the friendship. Nobody gets to demand payment on some mythical Level of Support loan.
You did not use him. If he feels that you did, well...you can’t change that. Hard things happened while you were together, he was supportive, your relationship has changed. It sounds like he misses you and that is sad, of course, but you don’t owe him anything. For people who have had to parent their own parents, it’s easy to get sucked into feeling guilty for needing to enforce your limits on what you can give other people and you should be proud of yourself for doing so.
posted by corey flood at 11:29 AM on March 15, 2021 [24 favorites]
You did not use him. If he feels that you did, well...you can’t change that. Hard things happened while you were together, he was supportive, your relationship has changed. It sounds like he misses you and that is sad, of course, but you don’t owe him anything. For people who have had to parent their own parents, it’s easy to get sucked into feeling guilty for needing to enforce your limits on what you can give other people and you should be proud of yourself for doing so.
posted by corey flood at 11:29 AM on March 15, 2021 [24 favorites]
lol no.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:34 AM on March 15, 2021 [62 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:34 AM on March 15, 2021 [62 favorites]
So, I agree with others that you don't owe him relationship-level intimacy now that you are no longer in a relationship with him and I want to add: If he wants to treat intimacy as something you bargain with and which must be equalized, what's his "or else" here?
Or else he'll br... nope, already broken up.
Or else you can't be fri... nope, you already said you're fine with not being friends.
Or else what?
He feels like you owe him something that you don't owe him, but even if you nominally owed it to him, his only angle is trying to make you feel bad if you don't give it to him and that's *shitty* behaviour on his part. Walk away from the "friendship" because it isn't one.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:35 AM on March 15, 2021 [28 favorites]
Or else he'll br... nope, already broken up.
Or else you can't be fri... nope, you already said you're fine with not being friends.
Or else what?
He feels like you owe him something that you don't owe him, but even if you nominally owed it to him, his only angle is trying to make you feel bad if you don't give it to him and that's *shitty* behaviour on his part. Walk away from the "friendship" because it isn't one.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:35 AM on March 15, 2021 [28 favorites]
He probably also did sex things you liked when you were together but it doesn't follow that you owe him sex things now.
posted by babelfish at 11:38 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 11:38 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Relationships don't do well with owing someone; there is no way to track who gave more or less. The real way to work it out is to be the sort of person who will support a partner, and pay it back down the line, if not to him, then to other people. That said, He provided significant support; you acknowledge this. It would be kind to tell him that you deeply appreciate his generosity, and will do your best to reciprocate if need arises, but that you aren't sure how that may play out, because the nature of the relationship is changing.
he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died). He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
If a real friend called because someone they love died, you should be there for them in some genuine manner. The part about feeling used sound like emotional blackmail. Try to be gentle with him, but I don't think your friendship is going to be meaningful.
posted by theora55 at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died). He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
If a real friend called because someone they love died, you should be there for them in some genuine manner. The part about feeling used sound like emotional blackmail. Try to be gentle with him, but I don't think your friendship is going to be meaningful.
posted by theora55 at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
No, he sounds manipulative. The most you can do is reassure him (once) that he wasn't being used but that your relationship is now over as are all of the relationship benefits that came with it. You can't go back to the past and say 'Remember when I made you lunch in 1993, Bobby? I kind of need you to make me a sandwich right now. In 2021'. It's the past. I don't even understand how he's okay with asking for that.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 11:48 AM on March 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 11:48 AM on March 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
Did you get into a relationship with him simply to have someone to comfort you when you had anxiety and through the future death of your grandmother? It doesn't sound like it to me, so there's your answer on that.
It frankly sounds like he's a transactional asshole, but if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt as maybe neurodivergent with unusual relationship expectations or just wired really differently for relationships, you can try explaining the difference between a romantic relationship (that didn't work out) versus friendship. Maybe explain to him where the line is: going anywhere in the middle of the night, no, but a compassionate and supportive conversation during normal operating hours yes. Would you help collect bail for him if he was in jail? Would you help him move in an emergency? Those are things that friends might or might not be willing to do for each other.
But you would also be well within your rights, having educated him in that information, to tell him that demands like his are gross and inappropriate so y'all aren't going to be friends after all.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:56 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
It frankly sounds like he's a transactional asshole, but if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt as maybe neurodivergent with unusual relationship expectations or just wired really differently for relationships, you can try explaining the difference between a romantic relationship (that didn't work out) versus friendship. Maybe explain to him where the line is: going anywhere in the middle of the night, no, but a compassionate and supportive conversation during normal operating hours yes. Would you help collect bail for him if he was in jail? Would you help him move in an emergency? Those are things that friends might or might not be willing to do for each other.
But you would also be well within your rights, having educated him in that information, to tell him that demands like his are gross and inappropriate so y'all aren't going to be friends after all.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:56 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
[...]I don't know if I want our future friendship, if we have one, to have that level of involvement and commitment. I wouldn't ask him in the future for the kind of support he gave me when we were together, because that support was based on a certain level of closeness that we don't have anymore. And while I want to be a good friend, I'm not sure I can honestly promise him the level of support he's asking for, mostly because I just don't want to be close with him anymore or have that deep of a relationship.
This is so emotionally mature and self-aware. It is so clearly articulated. It is an entirely reasonable and healthy perspective. I encourage you to stick with it, even if it means an awkward conversation with B or his feelings are hurt.
posted by hepta at 12:05 PM on March 15, 2021 [19 favorites]
This is so emotionally mature and self-aware. It is so clearly articulated. It is an entirely reasonable and healthy perspective. I encourage you to stick with it, even if it means an awkward conversation with B or his feelings are hurt.
posted by hepta at 12:05 PM on March 15, 2021 [19 favorites]
When you were together you were together and there is a certain set of negotiated behaviours that go with that, including emotional support, sex, communication frequency, etc. When you break up none of that applies automatically in the new friendship.
I think it’s a bit weird that he thinks it should carry forward- relationships are situational, not transactional. I think you’re being correct and ethical in saying, basically, “you were a good partner, I appreciated you, I would be happy to be friends with you, and cannot promise to act like your partner when I am your friend”.
It would also be ok and reasonable if what you feel is, “I don’t like these demands and now I would rather cut off this person 100%”.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:11 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think it’s a bit weird that he thinks it should carry forward- relationships are situational, not transactional. I think you’re being correct and ethical in saying, basically, “you were a good partner, I appreciated you, I would be happy to be friends with you, and cannot promise to act like your partner when I am your friend”.
It would also be ok and reasonable if what you feel is, “I don’t like these demands and now I would rather cut off this person 100%”.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:11 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry you saw our relationship as transactional, at this time I cannot offer you the reassurances you are after.
posted by wwax at 12:16 PM on March 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by wwax at 12:16 PM on March 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
that I'm just afraid of people being dependent on me - I always felt like my mum was too dependent on me when I was growing up, as was my last partner, so I definitely have a fear of 'losing my freedom' by making commitments to others
Whether or not that's an issue for you, the situation with this ex is something completely different, and he's completely wrong for the reasons described by pretty much every other comment. Even people who have absolutely no fear of commitment can still be selective about who they make their commitments to, and can have limits on how many people they can handle depending on them.
posted by trig at 12:18 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Whether or not that's an issue for you, the situation with this ex is something completely different, and he's completely wrong for the reasons described by pretty much every other comment. Even people who have absolutely no fear of commitment can still be selective about who they make their commitments to, and can have limits on how many people they can handle depending on them.
posted by trig at 12:18 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
he needed me to show that I valued our friendship
You can and should say no to this. This is also a really weird thing to ask. It's akin to "show me you love me!" Uh, no.
that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died).
If something like that happens, and you're willing and able to be there for him, then do it. But he's making it into something you SHOULD do, an obligation. Just because he did x for you while you were together, you should also do x now because...?
He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
Ah, the ol' guilt trip. Don't fall for it. If this is how he truly feels, those are his feelings to manage.
You're broken up now. You owe him nothing, save for regular common human decency.
Also, re: what to tell him now: "Sorry no, that's not possible. Trying to be friends isn't working out for me, so I think we should go our separate ways."
posted by foxjacket at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
You can and should say no to this. This is also a really weird thing to ask. It's akin to "show me you love me!" Uh, no.
that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died).
If something like that happens, and you're willing and able to be there for him, then do it. But he's making it into something you SHOULD do, an obligation. Just because he did x for you while you were together, you should also do x now because...?
He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
Ah, the ol' guilt trip. Don't fall for it. If this is how he truly feels, those are his feelings to manage.
You're broken up now. You owe him nothing, save for regular common human decency.
Also, re: what to tell him now: "Sorry no, that's not possible. Trying to be friends isn't working out for me, so I think we should go our separate ways."
posted by foxjacket at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
Seconding hepta. You said it yourself, and you said it well: "I wouldn't ask him in the future for the kind of support he gave me when we were together, because that support was based on a certain level of closeness that we don't have anymore."
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
You are under no obligation to remain friends with your ex. And given the way he presented this -- that you should prove to him that you value him -- I'd suggest taking a lot of space from this man. His language is controlling and manipulative and confirms you are making the right decision to end the relationship.
My experience in dating mostly cis, straight men the last few years is that most want to be friends after break up (not just friendly, but actively friends), which I have finally figured out means they want me to continue to provide emotional labor for them even outside of the context of an intimate relationship, and without any kind of break in regular contact. My best understanding of this: many men have a hard time being close to and vulnerable with other men, and often lean on their women partners and sometimes women friends to provide emotional labor.
I have found this to be a real challenge as I typically need a space in order to work through the end of the romantic relationship. I've definitely had some men challenge me on this. I think there's some notion that the mature, adult thing to do is stay friends. I also know some men have had difficult break ups and aren't in touch with former partners, so they feel like they have to prove they are good guys by staying friends with exes.
I can't guess if this is what's going on with your ex, but four months of emotional and physical intimacy does not obligate you to anything further. It's not your job to provide this emotional intimacy and support after your intimate relationship has ended. Given his wildly inappropriate phrasing around this, I encourage you to set very strong boundaries and take a significant break from being in touch. I'd suggest stepping away from any use of the word "friends" for now. If, at some point, *you* want to be friends, then you can reach out and see if that's an option. But I don't think you should leave this possibility open, and you'll have to make peace with him being angry about it; you are under no obligation to help him work through any of this.
I agree that you sound healthy and mature about all this. Please don't engage with him on this issue anymore, because I just don't think he'll be reasonable. I suspect some of your loss of attraction to him was perhaps related to some sense of these red flags with him. You did the right thing.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:29 PM on March 15, 2021 [21 favorites]
My experience in dating mostly cis, straight men the last few years is that most want to be friends after break up (not just friendly, but actively friends), which I have finally figured out means they want me to continue to provide emotional labor for them even outside of the context of an intimate relationship, and without any kind of break in regular contact. My best understanding of this: many men have a hard time being close to and vulnerable with other men, and often lean on their women partners and sometimes women friends to provide emotional labor.
I have found this to be a real challenge as I typically need a space in order to work through the end of the romantic relationship. I've definitely had some men challenge me on this. I think there's some notion that the mature, adult thing to do is stay friends. I also know some men have had difficult break ups and aren't in touch with former partners, so they feel like they have to prove they are good guys by staying friends with exes.
I can't guess if this is what's going on with your ex, but four months of emotional and physical intimacy does not obligate you to anything further. It's not your job to provide this emotional intimacy and support after your intimate relationship has ended. Given his wildly inappropriate phrasing around this, I encourage you to set very strong boundaries and take a significant break from being in touch. I'd suggest stepping away from any use of the word "friends" for now. If, at some point, *you* want to be friends, then you can reach out and see if that's an option. But I don't think you should leave this possibility open, and you'll have to make peace with him being angry about it; you are under no obligation to help him work through any of this.
I agree that you sound healthy and mature about all this. Please don't engage with him on this issue anymore, because I just don't think he'll be reasonable. I suspect some of your loss of attraction to him was perhaps related to some sense of these red flags with him. You did the right thing.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:29 PM on March 15, 2021 [21 favorites]
Wow, no. What a ridiculous thing for him to be trying to ask of you. Of course he's not going to get treated as though you're still in a relationship when you aren't. He's trying to manipulate and guilt you into providing a lot of emotional support to him, as though you have accrued some kind of care debt with him that you now have to repay. Nope. That's not how that works. I wouldn't continue to be friends with an ex who tried to do this to me.
posted by quince at 1:34 PM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by quince at 1:34 PM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
“I can’t be providing you with that level of emotional support because we’re not partners anymore and now you’ve tried to manipulate me into it, we’re not friends either. I guess this is goodbye!”
posted by Jubey at 2:09 PM on March 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 2:09 PM on March 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
Others have said it better above, but I just wanted to join the chorus of NOPE. This is not a reasonable request for him to make, and you should not feel any obligation to honor it.
posted by Lexica at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
That is a really weird request. Sorry, no!!
posted by 8603 at 4:01 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by 8603 at 4:01 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
he sent me a message telling me he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me
Or else.... what, exactly? Or else he won't be your friend? You've already told him you're ok with that. Agreeing with everyone you don't owe him anything, even though it sounds like otherwise (until he said he felt used) he was a nice enough guy.
posted by SquidLips at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Or else.... what, exactly? Or else he won't be your friend? You've already told him you're ok with that. Agreeing with everyone you don't owe him anything, even though it sounds like otherwise (until he said he felt used) he was a nice enough guy.
posted by SquidLips at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Maybe you could clear your conscience by, at a time when you feel up to it, giving him some form of support to keep? Like a stuffed animal and/or a note saying he's a good person? Or a food or massage gift certificate?
posted by amtho at 4:49 PM on March 15, 2021
posted by amtho at 4:49 PM on March 15, 2021
Include a sincere note with whatever, otherwise it will seem dismissive.
posted by amtho at 4:50 PM on March 15, 2021
posted by amtho at 4:50 PM on March 15, 2021
Team lol no. The time frames involved here preclude any deference to notions of accumulated mutual obligation. Nothing happens, or really could happen, in a four-month relationship that would bind two people for life, unless there’s a pregnancy involved anyway.
I would tenderize some of the more reflexive advice above with the caveat that if people do have children or even become significant figures in the life of a partner’s children from a previous relationship, you absolutely do owe that partner a lifetime of mutual support because they’re your kids’ other parent, and how you treat them affects the kid(s). Obviously that doesn’t apply here..
posted by spitbull at 6:56 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would tenderize some of the more reflexive advice above with the caveat that if people do have children or even become significant figures in the life of a partner’s children from a previous relationship, you absolutely do owe that partner a lifetime of mutual support because they’re your kids’ other parent, and how you treat them affects the kid(s). Obviously that doesn’t apply here..
posted by spitbull at 6:56 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wait, you've known him for only six months?? I, too, am on team lol no.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:07 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by selfmedicating at 7:07 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Sounds to me like there are a couple of things going on here. One is that the guy is immature and a bit manipulative, and is making demands that are inappropriate for any friendship, let alone a new one between people who recently ended a sexual/romantic relationship.
But it also doesn't sound like you really wanted to be friends with this guy, but felt pressured into making the offer to avoid feeling and looking like a bad person. It's understandable, and most people have felt that way at one time or another, but it could end up hurting both of you more.
You don't owe this guy anything, and I think it would be kind to answer him with something along the lines of "upon reflection I think it would be better for us to make a clean break right now."
posted by rpfields at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
But it also doesn't sound like you really wanted to be friends with this guy, but felt pressured into making the offer to avoid feeling and looking like a bad person. It's understandable, and most people have felt that way at one time or another, but it could end up hurting both of you more.
You don't owe this guy anything, and I think it would be kind to answer him with something along the lines of "upon reflection I think it would be better for us to make a clean break right now."
posted by rpfields at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is the strangest request I have heard in a long while. It is pure emotional blackmail. We can only be friends after our relationship ended if you are willing to commit to a certain level of intimacy? I see why you are no longer in a relationship with this cat. He sounds like a bad person. If it were me, I would tell him that maybe one day you can reach that level of commitment, but right now, no, you need time to move AWAY from him not commit to being closer. I would then either block them or keep being busy when he needs you for something.
I was married for 20 years. If something happened to my ex I would be there for support, but not emotional support. Like if her car broke down, I would lend her mine, but if her grandmother died, I would send a nice note remembering the good times we had with her grandmother, but I would not be a shoulder to cry on. Can't have it both ways. You are no longer attracted to him. you broke off the relationship. Now he wants it all without the sex because he helped you at one vulnerable time? Has he been collecting chits the whole relationship? He is showing his true nature. I would run.
posted by AugustWest at 7:35 PM on March 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
I was married for 20 years. If something happened to my ex I would be there for support, but not emotional support. Like if her car broke down, I would lend her mine, but if her grandmother died, I would send a nice note remembering the good times we had with her grandmother, but I would not be a shoulder to cry on. Can't have it both ways. You are no longer attracted to him. you broke off the relationship. Now he wants it all without the sex because he helped you at one vulnerable time? Has he been collecting chits the whole relationship? He is showing his true nature. I would run.
posted by AugustWest at 7:35 PM on March 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
Team: “LOL, no”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:27 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:27 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ick. I mean, lol no. But also if someone suggests you owe them future support and friendship because they showed up for you as a partner while dating you, that’s super gross. Maybe they’re lashing out and being uncharacteristically terrible, and this doesn’t reflect how they viewed you during the relationship, but in any case it’s controlling and manipulative to pretend you owe anything.
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:55 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:55 PM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
he needed me to show that I valued our friendship and that I'd be there for him when he's down like he was for me (the example he gave was coming over in the middle of the night if his grandma died). He said he feels used and put aside for the sake of convenience.
Okay, and... now he's trying to make you feel like you owe him not only in spite of the change in your relationship but because of that change, and he's making this into a scenario where you owe him something because you're not together anymore without giving you any space? Sounds like he's trying to get back together with you without actually saying that that's what he wants and without giving either of you enough time to adequately process the change. I'm friends with a number of my exes, but a big part of why that works is that no one was pulling this kind of nonsense. Tell him what you're comfortable with and make clear that him pushing for more will only push you away.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:52 AM on March 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Okay, and... now he's trying to make you feel like you owe him not only in spite of the change in your relationship but because of that change, and he's making this into a scenario where you owe him something because you're not together anymore without giving you any space? Sounds like he's trying to get back together with you without actually saying that that's what he wants and without giving either of you enough time to adequately process the change. I'm friends with a number of my exes, but a big part of why that works is that no one was pulling this kind of nonsense. Tell him what you're comfortable with and make clear that him pushing for more will only push you away.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:52 AM on March 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
On top of what everyone else has said, that I fully agree with, what sort of middle of the night support is he expecting/demanding from you as a friend, not a romantic partner that requires your physical presence? Hard nope.
posted by eviemath at 12:33 PM on March 16, 2021
posted by eviemath at 12:33 PM on March 16, 2021
Nthing "lol no."
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:08 PM on March 16, 2021
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:08 PM on March 16, 2021
People can set requests/boundaries in relationships where they want. And other people can set their boundaries where they want. That's a fact of life, though there are healthy and unhealthy boundaries all around us!
In my opinion, he set a very aggressive, demanding boundary (that I would not want to participate in). You do not want to agree to it because it conflicts with where you want to be (I find your boundary healthy and mature, if my opinion matters!). So yeah, not gonna work.
You're not being weird or callous at all. I do not think he will take you stating your boundaries well at all, that's why he used the guilt trip on you. This is why romantic --> friendship often doesn't survive, one person can't let go and the other person has to let go.
"lol no" is pretty spot on when I get a really over-the-top thing like this from someone. Oh, and tallying up scores for things like this as your ex did is just... a really bad way to live.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:22 PM on March 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
In my opinion, he set a very aggressive, demanding boundary (that I would not want to participate in). You do not want to agree to it because it conflicts with where you want to be (I find your boundary healthy and mature, if my opinion matters!). So yeah, not gonna work.
You're not being weird or callous at all. I do not think he will take you stating your boundaries well at all, that's why he used the guilt trip on you. This is why romantic --> friendship often doesn't survive, one person can't let go and the other person has to let go.
"lol no" is pretty spot on when I get a really over-the-top thing like this from someone. Oh, and tallying up scores for things like this as your ex did is just... a really bad way to live.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:22 PM on March 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
(Side note, a demand/request is different from a boundary. Ex buddy here did the former, not the latter.)
posted by eviemath at 1:55 PM on March 16, 2021
posted by eviemath at 1:55 PM on March 16, 2021
A lot of people here are focusing on B's behavior here. That's not irrelevant, but I think that's probably a mistake. You can argue there are shortcomings, but I think the bigger issue, dear asker, is your feelings and ideals.
If I'm seeing myself in B, then what would be going on with me is that I'd be trying to figure out what kind of friends you can be and not waste time on mismatched expectations. Are you going to be (a) friendly, enjoying a sense of amiable light connection, happy to catch up at a party or other event, but rarely if ever making an effort to connect or (b) present in an effort to maintain contact and some kind of ongoing conversation and pattern of invites or (c) good friends who rely on each other emotionally or practically?
Good friends are hard enough to find that transforming an ex partnership to a good friend sure seems like a win when it's possible. It's common that it's not possible. The most straightforward kind of not-possible is "I've found our relationship or some betrayal of it or its end so difficult in some way that I'd just honestly prefer not to deal with you anymore" which at least has the virtue of clarity. And of course, the next kind of not-possible is "only one of us wanted this to end or change and that's probably going to be the not-fun underlying subtext of any friendship."
But then we enter the realm of the mismatched expectations of what "friend" means. And here you are, pausing on an *explicit* discussion of that!
And that might be the end of it. You may have mismatched expectations or abilities. B wants to be "good friends", you may prefer to be "friendly" or "present". B may find that his dance card is or isn't full enough of "friendly" or "present." You may find that some reserve is or isn't present for you to do "good friends" with B. Is there a negotiation to be had here? Maybe. Maybe not. You'll figure that out. Maybe you already have.
But one thing I'll suggest is that in spite of the fact that some people may find it gauche (perhaps, to hit a classic MeFi note, those who break towards guess over ask culture), the fact that you're having explicit conversations about it is NOT pathological. He's asking for what he wants, you get to tell him what is or isn't possible for you. You can do a whole lot worse as an approach.
So that's mostly about a frame for the conversation you're in (ie is this other person terrible for asking for something?). Now, back to your feelings, dear asker:
"I just don't want to be close with him anymore or have that deep of a relationship."
That's a clear statement of your own emotional compass. Even if B isn't wrong for asking, you're not wrong if you know that's where you're at. And if that's *really* where you're at, what good would it really do either you or B to take on a closer relationship out of a sense of grudging obligation?
No, if you really are going to be a good friend, it can only happen from one of two places: (1) a feeling of affection where you *do* want to be close, or (2) ideals you hold for yourself.
If you're describing your feelings accurately to B and us, then #1 can't be your reason. That leaves #2. And that seems to be where you're hesitating, asking yourself if maybe you are coming up short, wondering if you're "just afraid of people being dependent on me", if you should be showing up for more than 2-3 people, if maybe you did use someone and put them aside. And *this* is a lot to unpack.
I think the weight of those questions is broadly underestimated and it's very aware and responsible to ask yourself them. We want to believe our relationships are where we're most caring and responsible but the truth is that almost everyone at some point treats other people primarily as a prop in their own story and doesn't do right by them, maybe even to the point where phrases like "using" and "discarding" are accurate. On the other hand, it is also true that you need to show up for yourself and there are always limits to how much you can give or invest into any relationship, and you will have to choose to limit some relationships so you can nurture other choices. How do you balance this?
I don't have a straightforward answer for you, but some things you might want to consider include:
* It is notoriously difficult to renegotiate healthy boundaries shortly after a relationship has changed. Whatever you choose to do with B in the long term, you might want to say something like "I'm thinking about what you said and asked for, and *maybe* I'll have a different answer over time, but right now I think it'll help both of us if we start from a place where we have more space for X months."
* If you have 2-3 people that you've consistently shown up for, that's pretty good. And evidence that you do know how to have people depend on you. So maybe you don't need to second guess that? Unless *you* want to stretch here and do this with more people.
* Do you want more? It doesn't have to be B. Unless you want it to be.
* Some space where you don't feel obligated might help you reflect on the qualities which drew you to B (beyond attraction?) in the first place which might help you figure out how/why you may (or may not) value a future friendship.
* One of the best things someone ever did for me in the wake of a breakup was take the time to talk with me and say more or less "I can see this hurts for you, and it breaks my heart that it does, but this is the right choice for me." There was something about the way they acknowledged, faced, and expressed clearly-felt regret over my pain that affirmed me as a person (not a prop), while also affirming that her choices that could not include me. When I've had to end or change relationships, I've tried to do something similar. It's not easy and I've failed. But it's sometimes the last thing you can do with a person to honor the time you shared.
Thank you for being someone who cares enough about the difficult margins of relationships to think about it and come to AskMe and get people's perspectives, even if mine doesn't end up being the one that's most useful to you. Good luck as you find the way to show up both for yourself, your ideals, and the people you choose.
posted by weston at 2:23 PM on March 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
If I'm seeing myself in B, then what would be going on with me is that I'd be trying to figure out what kind of friends you can be and not waste time on mismatched expectations. Are you going to be (a) friendly, enjoying a sense of amiable light connection, happy to catch up at a party or other event, but rarely if ever making an effort to connect or (b) present in an effort to maintain contact and some kind of ongoing conversation and pattern of invites or (c) good friends who rely on each other emotionally or practically?
Good friends are hard enough to find that transforming an ex partnership to a good friend sure seems like a win when it's possible. It's common that it's not possible. The most straightforward kind of not-possible is "I've found our relationship or some betrayal of it or its end so difficult in some way that I'd just honestly prefer not to deal with you anymore" which at least has the virtue of clarity. And of course, the next kind of not-possible is "only one of us wanted this to end or change and that's probably going to be the not-fun underlying subtext of any friendship."
But then we enter the realm of the mismatched expectations of what "friend" means. And here you are, pausing on an *explicit* discussion of that!
And that might be the end of it. You may have mismatched expectations or abilities. B wants to be "good friends", you may prefer to be "friendly" or "present". B may find that his dance card is or isn't full enough of "friendly" or "present." You may find that some reserve is or isn't present for you to do "good friends" with B. Is there a negotiation to be had here? Maybe. Maybe not. You'll figure that out. Maybe you already have.
But one thing I'll suggest is that in spite of the fact that some people may find it gauche (perhaps, to hit a classic MeFi note, those who break towards guess over ask culture), the fact that you're having explicit conversations about it is NOT pathological. He's asking for what he wants, you get to tell him what is or isn't possible for you. You can do a whole lot worse as an approach.
So that's mostly about a frame for the conversation you're in (ie is this other person terrible for asking for something?). Now, back to your feelings, dear asker:
"I just don't want to be close with him anymore or have that deep of a relationship."
That's a clear statement of your own emotional compass. Even if B isn't wrong for asking, you're not wrong if you know that's where you're at. And if that's *really* where you're at, what good would it really do either you or B to take on a closer relationship out of a sense of grudging obligation?
No, if you really are going to be a good friend, it can only happen from one of two places: (1) a feeling of affection where you *do* want to be close, or (2) ideals you hold for yourself.
If you're describing your feelings accurately to B and us, then #1 can't be your reason. That leaves #2. And that seems to be where you're hesitating, asking yourself if maybe you are coming up short, wondering if you're "just afraid of people being dependent on me", if you should be showing up for more than 2-3 people, if maybe you did use someone and put them aside. And *this* is a lot to unpack.
I think the weight of those questions is broadly underestimated and it's very aware and responsible to ask yourself them. We want to believe our relationships are where we're most caring and responsible but the truth is that almost everyone at some point treats other people primarily as a prop in their own story and doesn't do right by them, maybe even to the point where phrases like "using" and "discarding" are accurate. On the other hand, it is also true that you need to show up for yourself and there are always limits to how much you can give or invest into any relationship, and you will have to choose to limit some relationships so you can nurture other choices. How do you balance this?
I don't have a straightforward answer for you, but some things you might want to consider include:
* It is notoriously difficult to renegotiate healthy boundaries shortly after a relationship has changed. Whatever you choose to do with B in the long term, you might want to say something like "I'm thinking about what you said and asked for, and *maybe* I'll have a different answer over time, but right now I think it'll help both of us if we start from a place where we have more space for X months."
* If you have 2-3 people that you've consistently shown up for, that's pretty good. And evidence that you do know how to have people depend on you. So maybe you don't need to second guess that? Unless *you* want to stretch here and do this with more people.
* Do you want more? It doesn't have to be B. Unless you want it to be.
* Some space where you don't feel obligated might help you reflect on the qualities which drew you to B (beyond attraction?) in the first place which might help you figure out how/why you may (or may not) value a future friendship.
* One of the best things someone ever did for me in the wake of a breakup was take the time to talk with me and say more or less "I can see this hurts for you, and it breaks my heart that it does, but this is the right choice for me." There was something about the way they acknowledged, faced, and expressed clearly-felt regret over my pain that affirmed me as a person (not a prop), while also affirming that her choices that could not include me. When I've had to end or change relationships, I've tried to do something similar. It's not easy and I've failed. But it's sometimes the last thing you can do with a person to honor the time you shared.
Thank you for being someone who cares enough about the difficult margins of relationships to think about it and come to AskMe and get people's perspectives, even if mine doesn't end up being the one that's most useful to you. Good luck as you find the way to show up both for yourself, your ideals, and the people you choose.
posted by weston at 2:23 PM on March 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
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posted by stormygrey at 11:13 AM on March 15, 2021 [109 favorites]