Have you ever talked to someone about their role in toxic masculinity?
August 10, 2020 3:19 PM Subscribe
My ex's new OKCupid profile says that he doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture. On the other hand, he clearly has entitlement issues (the key reason that we broke up). Now that some time has passed since our breakup, and in the interest of our community and the future people he might date, I'm considering bringing this up with him.
My question: If I choose to do this, what are some strategies/ways to make the conversation go better?
Note: this is NOT a question about whether it's a good idea to do it. That's something I'm still mulling over. I'm interested in hearing about strategies I can use if I do decide to go ahead.
Possible points to consider:
- I'm a woman, he's a man, both late 20s/early 30s
- we broke up about 1.5 months ago and have spoken minimally and politely since
- he previously expressed interest in "talking about things" but I didn't want to so I turned him down
- we are part of the same broader community and have many mutual friends
- he's in therapy and quite vocal about how useful it is
- I'm definitely not doing this for myself (not looking to get an apology/feel heard/god forbid get back together)
- mostly, as a feminist and part of our community, when I see him saying he doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity, I feel a need to speak up and say something about how he is contributing to that
- if he doesn't want to hear me out or gets angry or dismissive or whatever, oh well, not my problem anymore
- if there's a goal here at all, it's more to encourage him to ask his therapist about these issues
Some context about what kind of entitlement we're talking about:
- he wasn't very interested in my pleasure in bed, even saying that the things I wanted were boring or took too long (seriously, wtf)
- he frequently wanted "credit" for something that he did, like he might say "I spent an hour making you dinner, you're welcome" even though I hadn't asked him for that, or "I'm the only one who does X around here"
- a while ago, when I said I wanted to prioritize getting a job, his immediate response was "but then I'll never see you"
- sometimes he would do something "jokey" but inappropriate (like scare me from behind the shower curtain while I was in the shower), and then would keep doing it several times even though I told him "that's creepy" and "hey that's not okay" and finally "don't do that again"
- similarly, sometimes he'd make "jokey" but really disparaging comments about my body/hygiene/etc. choices, such as saying that he didn't like my haircut, or that it's stupid to use shampoo as bodywash, or that I need a new phone because mine is an older model
Soooooooo yeah, hearing this person say that he doesn't want to contribute to toxic masculinity rings all kinds of alarm bells. The most important thread that I see here is not paying attention to whether the other person is having a good time. Not all of the above fit that pattern exactly, but it seems like the most directly actionable. Probably I would also like to bring up his wanting recognition all the time.
Note: this is NOT a question about whether it's a good idea to do it. That's something I'm still mulling over. I'm interested in hearing about strategies I can use if I do decide to go ahead.
Possible points to consider:
- I'm a woman, he's a man, both late 20s/early 30s
- we broke up about 1.5 months ago and have spoken minimally and politely since
- he previously expressed interest in "talking about things" but I didn't want to so I turned him down
- we are part of the same broader community and have many mutual friends
- he's in therapy and quite vocal about how useful it is
- I'm definitely not doing this for myself (not looking to get an apology/feel heard/god forbid get back together)
- mostly, as a feminist and part of our community, when I see him saying he doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity, I feel a need to speak up and say something about how he is contributing to that
- if he doesn't want to hear me out or gets angry or dismissive or whatever, oh well, not my problem anymore
- if there's a goal here at all, it's more to encourage him to ask his therapist about these issues
Some context about what kind of entitlement we're talking about:
- he wasn't very interested in my pleasure in bed, even saying that the things I wanted were boring or took too long (seriously, wtf)
- he frequently wanted "credit" for something that he did, like he might say "I spent an hour making you dinner, you're welcome" even though I hadn't asked him for that, or "I'm the only one who does X around here"
- a while ago, when I said I wanted to prioritize getting a job, his immediate response was "but then I'll never see you"
- sometimes he would do something "jokey" but inappropriate (like scare me from behind the shower curtain while I was in the shower), and then would keep doing it several times even though I told him "that's creepy" and "hey that's not okay" and finally "don't do that again"
- similarly, sometimes he'd make "jokey" but really disparaging comments about my body/hygiene/etc. choices, such as saying that he didn't like my haircut, or that it's stupid to use shampoo as bodywash, or that I need a new phone because mine is an older model
Soooooooo yeah, hearing this person say that he doesn't want to contribute to toxic masculinity rings all kinds of alarm bells. The most important thread that I see here is not paying attention to whether the other person is having a good time. Not all of the above fit that pattern exactly, but it seems like the most directly actionable. Probably I would also like to bring up his wanting recognition all the time.
I think you should make the discussion about behaviors and impacts to you as opposed to abstract notions like toxic masculinity. This is not to say the behaviors are not reflective of toxic masculinity - I'm not the person to make that call. I can say, though, that these behaviors are asshole-ish regardless of whether they are contributing to toxic masculinity. You were harmed by each of those behaviors. If you'd like the behaviors to stop, specifically call them out and connect them to why they matter to you. If you bring up toxic masculinity, he can argue the behaviors are not indicative of toxic masculinity, or bring up that his intent wasn't to cause harm via toxic masculinity. If you focus solely on the impact, it's harder to have that discussion.
It's useful to label behaviors so that you can understand them. However, that label is not necessary to convince someone their actions are wrong.
posted by saeculorum at 3:44 PM on August 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's useful to label behaviors so that you can understand them. However, that label is not necessary to convince someone their actions are wrong.
posted by saeculorum at 3:44 PM on August 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Mod note: bunch of comments removed -- feel free to answer the question being asked or move along.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2020
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2020
Response by poster: Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it would be better to ask an open-ended question: "What are you doing to combat toxic masculinity culture?"
posted by Questolicious at 3:50 PM on August 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Questolicious at 3:50 PM on August 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Would be great to hear stories from people who have attempted some version of this conversation, whether with friends, children, relatives, or significant others.
posted by Questolicious at 3:54 PM on August 10, 2020
posted by Questolicious at 3:54 PM on August 10, 2020
If you decide to do this, I would not do it with examples from your relationship. There's way too much potential for that to turn into a rehashing-your-relationship thing or for him to think you're bringing it up because you're mad about how things went down, or whatever. If you can have the conversation sticking primarily or exclusively to things that aren't about your relationship, focusing on what you've observed in his interactions with other people, you're probably better off doing that.
If you don't have any examples that aren't about your time in a relationship with him, that's a sign that you probably aren't the right person to have this conversation with him right now. You may do more harm than good in terms of souring him on being willing to have this conversation or do this work with other people in the future, who could get farther without the baggage of the recent ex-relationship. If that's the case, I'd advise waiting and coming back to this in six months to see if it's still a conversation you feel would be beneficial.
How would you have this discussion with someone else in your community who you didn't have this history with? That's how you should have it with this person, if you really feel you must.
posted by Stacey at 3:58 PM on August 10, 2020 [16 favorites]
If you don't have any examples that aren't about your time in a relationship with him, that's a sign that you probably aren't the right person to have this conversation with him right now. You may do more harm than good in terms of souring him on being willing to have this conversation or do this work with other people in the future, who could get farther without the baggage of the recent ex-relationship. If that's the case, I'd advise waiting and coming back to this in six months to see if it's still a conversation you feel would be beneficial.
How would you have this discussion with someone else in your community who you didn't have this history with? That's how you should have it with this person, if you really feel you must.
posted by Stacey at 3:58 PM on August 10, 2020 [16 favorites]
OKCupid profile says that he doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture. On the other hand, he clearly has entitlement issues (the key reason that we broke up). Now that some time has passed since our breakup, and in the interest of our community and the future people he might date
The only way I can imagine (don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are other options I'm not imagining) you being able to have a conversation where you get across to him that this doesn't belong on his dating profile, has to be when things are light and jokey: "ha ha I know we are both getting back out there, so I was browsing on OKcupid the other day and found your profile -- looking good with those pics, but seriously, "Doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture"? Ha ha that's hilarious? You? Dude the path to success is paved with being honest about your personality traits, lol why don't you say you are other thing instead?"
Though you might consider if you are really doing anyone he dates in the future by encouraging him to hide negative traits they will find out in short order. Pretty much no one who finds "not part of toxic masculinity culture" to be an important trait in someone they are dating is going to take a claim to be such on a dating profile at face value.
posted by yohko at 3:59 PM on August 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
The only way I can imagine (don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are other options I'm not imagining) you being able to have a conversation where you get across to him that this doesn't belong on his dating profile, has to be when things are light and jokey: "ha ha I know we are both getting back out there, so I was browsing on OKcupid the other day and found your profile -- looking good with those pics, but seriously, "Doesn't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture"? Ha ha that's hilarious? You? Dude the path to success is paved with being honest about your personality traits, lol why don't you say you are other thing instead?"
Though you might consider if you are really doing anyone he dates in the future by encouraging him to hide negative traits they will find out in short order. Pretty much no one who finds "not part of toxic masculinity culture" to be an important trait in someone they are dating is going to take a claim to be such on a dating profile at face value.
posted by yohko at 3:59 PM on August 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
I see the problem as less about how to have the conversation and more about how to bring it up in the first place. In the moment, when you're in the room together and he does something unpleasant, or a few hours later in a quiet, "I wanted to talk about this" moment, you could do this. But approaching someone whom you haven't spoken to in months, who you've refused to talk to, just to offer unsolicited criticism of his behavior months ago, is an awkward situation.
I guess if I was going to do it, I'd ask if he still wanted to talk about things as he asked before. And if you get a yes and it results in a conversation, I would probably say "I have some feedback on some of our interactions when we were together, if you'd be interested to hear it," possibly beginning with a "I saw your dating profile and decrying toxic masculinity, which is so great to hear. If you'd like some specific feedback around that, we could definitely discuss it more.
Be prepared for the line in his profile to be lip service or a smokescreen; in certain circles--presumably the ones you run in--it's what you're supposed to say, whether you care about it or not.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:02 PM on August 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
I guess if I was going to do it, I'd ask if he still wanted to talk about things as he asked before. And if you get a yes and it results in a conversation, I would probably say "I have some feedback on some of our interactions when we were together, if you'd be interested to hear it," possibly beginning with a "I saw your dating profile and decrying toxic masculinity, which is so great to hear. If you'd like some specific feedback around that, we could definitely discuss it more.
Be prepared for the line in his profile to be lip service or a smokescreen; in certain circles--presumably the ones you run in--it's what you're supposed to say, whether you care about it or not.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:02 PM on August 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
If you decide to do this, lead be offering to teach him about specific strategies he can use to combat toxic masculinity. Mention that you’ll be including examples from your relationship, but stress that it’s NOT an attack. Then wait. He may say no. Or he may say yes, then descend into a full blown argument that will bring up all kinds of painful memories and scars, as if you’re reliving every painful thing he ever did at the same time.
Every time I have tried to change someone, I have hurt myself in the process while he didn’t change a bit.
But I DID have one ex who finally grew and changed, who saw my perspective. It took over a year and he was in therapy for that long. During that time I did not speak to him at all. Change comes from within.
Are you sure you’re not doing this to make yourself feel better on some level?
posted by Amy93 at 4:12 PM on August 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
Every time I have tried to change someone, I have hurt myself in the process while he didn’t change a bit.
But I DID have one ex who finally grew and changed, who saw my perspective. It took over a year and he was in therapy for that long. During that time I did not speak to him at all. Change comes from within.
Are you sure you’re not doing this to make yourself feel better on some level?
posted by Amy93 at 4:12 PM on August 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
He sounds like a jerk, but I wouldn't necessarily see those as examples of toxic masculinity exactly...maybe I define it differently, but be aware that he may also define it differently, and that could lead him to argue with you about this rather than actually absorb anything. (Also, I would agree that this isn't a good idea--I would stick with speaking up at the time when you see friends say something problematic in the future, rather than trying to help this particular person. If there's a way to block his profile on OkCupid so you don't see it anymore, that seems like a good idea...).
posted by pinochiette at 4:28 PM on August 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 4:28 PM on August 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Mod note: please read above mod update - if you have done this, that door is open to talk about it. Otherwise, answer question being asked or please move along. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:49 PM on August 10, 2020
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:49 PM on August 10, 2020
Unless it comes up naturally in conversation, I suspect that enlisting the aid of other members of your shared community - other men, if possible - would be your best bet. Hearing it from you, his ex, may only entrench some of the negative behaviors. It doesn't sound like he was inclined to listen to you or take you seriously during the relationship, and he has even less incentive to do so now, so it may add to a story that he's telling himself about how victimized he is. But if it comes up naturally in conversation, some righteous anger or indignation would be fine, or a calm and collected approach would be equally fine. If he's going to dismiss what you have to say based on your tone or approach, he'll find something to criticize and use for that dismissal no matter what tone or approach you take. I mean, short of being abusive toward him, but it doesn't sound like you're planning that.
posted by eviemath at 4:50 PM on August 10, 2020
posted by eviemath at 4:50 PM on August 10, 2020
That part of his profile is like an 'Organic' label in the grocery store. It raises perceived value without making any specific promises. I wouldn't bring it up, but that wasn't your question.
If you do talk about it with him, pick one thing from your list. Your list is entirely valid and shows a pattern of behavior. But if you give him this list, he will take one example from the list, remove context, and use it to discredit the rest of the list, and you. (If I had to guess, I'd say he'd start with the part about you needing a new phone).
I would tackle the issue of him 'jokily' scaring you in the shower. That might be easiest to talk about as a way he repeatedly acted in a way you disliked without your consent. If he's at all interested in growth, he can take that framing seriously.
posted by Garm at 4:53 PM on August 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you do talk about it with him, pick one thing from your list. Your list is entirely valid and shows a pattern of behavior. But if you give him this list, he will take one example from the list, remove context, and use it to discredit the rest of the list, and you. (If I had to guess, I'd say he'd start with the part about you needing a new phone).
I would tackle the issue of him 'jokily' scaring you in the shower. That might be easiest to talk about as a way he repeatedly acted in a way you disliked without your consent. If he's at all interested in growth, he can take that framing seriously.
posted by Garm at 4:53 PM on August 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Could you talk with one of your mutual friends and then have them discuss it with the ex? I feel that after only 1.5 months, if you told him he'd focus more on the messenger than the content of the message.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:00 PM on August 10, 2020
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:00 PM on August 10, 2020
To get people to critically examine their own toxic masculinity without becoming defensive, dismissive, and angry (and therefore deaf to your suggestion), you have to create a safe space for them in the conversation where they can be absolutely sure they are not being judged by you. Why? Because:
1. Being accused of toxic masculinity causes embarrassment and shame -- someone else has observed their toxic masculinity when they themselves have not. Imagine you've been going around the office all day with the back of your dress is stuck in your panties, and a coworker informs you of this. Your first reaction will be to feel mortified, no matter how the news is delivered. But it makes a world of difference whether the coworker says to you, "By the way, are you aware that your attire is inappropriate?" vs. if the coworker discreetly pulls you into the ladies' room and tells you "Hey, quick, fix your dress." In the former instance, you feel angry and upset. In the latter, you still feel embarrassed but also grateful. Being nonjudgmental and sensitive to his feelings of embarrasment is going to make this guy feel less likely to be angry and upset with you.
2. It is very difficult to accept the existence of issues in yourself which are extremely difficult to fix. In this way, toxic masculinity isn't at all like having your dress stuck in your panties, right? It's more like finding out that your coworkers think you are difficult to work with. Your first reaction is going to be to feel defensive, no matter how the news is delivered.But it makes a world of difference whether your coworker says to you, "You're difficult to work with because you're too ____," vs. if the coworker invites you into the office, closes the door, and says, "Hey, listen, I heard some concerning feedback about you, and I'd like to run it by you. Apparently you come across as a little ____. Now, you're an excellent worker and you have many strengths, such as ___ and ___. I know this and your team knows this. We are here to support you. I'd love to work with you to resolve this issue. What do you think we can do to address it?" Being nonjudgmental and "on his team" is going to make this guy more likely to be willing to work on this issue.
3. Critically examining one's own toxic masculinity in the presence of someone else is an extremely vulnerable act. Imagine if your romantic partner tells you that your thighs and your butt are in bad shape, not toned enough: are you likely to feel comfortable being naked in front of them? Are you likely to take their suggestions for a workout plan? When your soul's flaws are bared, rejection or judgment feels like annihilation. It is only in the presence of an accepting and safe other that we become capable of this vulnerability. I have no idea how you can make an ex feel safe enough with you to openly admit his soul's flaws to you and take your suggestions for how to rehabilitate himself. But absolute safety is what you would need to create for him, if an open heart is the reaction you want from him.
It's a lot of effort, but hey, if you want to do it...
posted by MiraK at 5:09 PM on August 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
1. Being accused of toxic masculinity causes embarrassment and shame -- someone else has observed their toxic masculinity when they themselves have not. Imagine you've been going around the office all day with the back of your dress is stuck in your panties, and a coworker informs you of this. Your first reaction will be to feel mortified, no matter how the news is delivered. But it makes a world of difference whether the coworker says to you, "By the way, are you aware that your attire is inappropriate?" vs. if the coworker discreetly pulls you into the ladies' room and tells you "Hey, quick, fix your dress." In the former instance, you feel angry and upset. In the latter, you still feel embarrassed but also grateful. Being nonjudgmental and sensitive to his feelings of embarrasment is going to make this guy feel less likely to be angry and upset with you.
2. It is very difficult to accept the existence of issues in yourself which are extremely difficult to fix. In this way, toxic masculinity isn't at all like having your dress stuck in your panties, right? It's more like finding out that your coworkers think you are difficult to work with. Your first reaction is going to be to feel defensive, no matter how the news is delivered.But it makes a world of difference whether your coworker says to you, "You're difficult to work with because you're too ____," vs. if the coworker invites you into the office, closes the door, and says, "Hey, listen, I heard some concerning feedback about you, and I'd like to run it by you. Apparently you come across as a little ____. Now, you're an excellent worker and you have many strengths, such as ___ and ___. I know this and your team knows this. We are here to support you. I'd love to work with you to resolve this issue. What do you think we can do to address it?" Being nonjudgmental and "on his team" is going to make this guy more likely to be willing to work on this issue.
3. Critically examining one's own toxic masculinity in the presence of someone else is an extremely vulnerable act. Imagine if your romantic partner tells you that your thighs and your butt are in bad shape, not toned enough: are you likely to feel comfortable being naked in front of them? Are you likely to take their suggestions for a workout plan? When your soul's flaws are bared, rejection or judgment feels like annihilation. It is only in the presence of an accepting and safe other that we become capable of this vulnerability. I have no idea how you can make an ex feel safe enough with you to openly admit his soul's flaws to you and take your suggestions for how to rehabilitate himself. But absolute safety is what you would need to create for him, if an open heart is the reaction you want from him.
It's a lot of effort, but hey, if you want to do it...
posted by MiraK at 5:09 PM on August 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
you cannot bring up anything you found out by searching up his current dating profile. You are not a current dating prospect of his and this would be creepy, period.
the only history that would justify getting into his current dating activity (or trying to warn his current prospects) would be a history of assault, stalking, abuse (including abusive language), or other violence. If I understand you correctly and if you aren't downplaying anything, he was just a selfish dick, and additionally had some interpersonal habits that you do not like. You do not have standing to ask him to explain why he is not presenting himself as a selfish dick on dating platforms, when you happen to know for a fact that he is one. that is not a thing you can do with an ex, whether you share a social circle or not.
(but of course -- if someone in your shared circle is interested in him and comes to you for the inside story on what he's like as a partner, tell them everything you told us. you have total freedom there.)
you CAN confront him with his hypocrisy -- and you can bring up absolutely anything from your shared past as evidence and ammunition, no matter how personal -- if he postures about toxic masculinity in public, either to you or to someone else where you legitimately overhear it. then, destroy him. and yes, start by politely asking for specifics. "How are you doing that, specifically?" or "This is a big change! It must have been really difficult to consciously stop doing all the things you used to do to me," and escalate from there as necessary.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:12 PM on August 10, 2020 [19 favorites]
the only history that would justify getting into his current dating activity (or trying to warn his current prospects) would be a history of assault, stalking, abuse (including abusive language), or other violence. If I understand you correctly and if you aren't downplaying anything, he was just a selfish dick, and additionally had some interpersonal habits that you do not like. You do not have standing to ask him to explain why he is not presenting himself as a selfish dick on dating platforms, when you happen to know for a fact that he is one. that is not a thing you can do with an ex, whether you share a social circle or not.
(but of course -- if someone in your shared circle is interested in him and comes to you for the inside story on what he's like as a partner, tell them everything you told us. you have total freedom there.)
you CAN confront him with his hypocrisy -- and you can bring up absolutely anything from your shared past as evidence and ammunition, no matter how personal -- if he postures about toxic masculinity in public, either to you or to someone else where you legitimately overhear it. then, destroy him. and yes, start by politely asking for specifics. "How are you doing that, specifically?" or "This is a big change! It must have been really difficult to consciously stop doing all the things you used to do to me," and escalate from there as necessary.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:12 PM on August 10, 2020 [19 favorites]
I have had "well then you have to walk the walk" conversations with at least two cis men and one non-binary individual, though only ever while I still had some kind of positive relationship with them. As that suggests, the connection did not last in all cases, but I wouldn't say that it was because of my intervention, more that my intervention yet necessary but failed, so I took my leave. When it worked, it didn't really seem to matter what my approach was ("when you.../I feel..." statements vs. annoyed snapping vs. more philosophical musing), but when it didn't work it also didn't really matter how wonderfully careful and conscientious I was about it. You can't help anyone change who doesn't already want to, and even then there's no guarantee.
posted by teremala at 5:17 PM on August 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by teremala at 5:17 PM on August 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
If you decide to do this:
Find some good resources he can read or venues/individuals you trust that he can engage on the topic. Let him know you are thinking of him and want him to be successful in this effort. Offer these resources as good ones he might engage on his own time. Don't bring up anything from your own relationship history - the point is to learn, not to be convinced that learning is needed. Wish him the best of luck and your genuine hope that it helps him.
Maybe offer to be a reference and resource to talk about it after he has done some of the other reading and engagement. He needs to have a better grounding in the conversation before it will likely be satisfying or useful for either of you.
posted by meinvt at 7:42 PM on August 10, 2020
Find some good resources he can read or venues/individuals you trust that he can engage on the topic. Let him know you are thinking of him and want him to be successful in this effort. Offer these resources as good ones he might engage on his own time. Don't bring up anything from your own relationship history - the point is to learn, not to be convinced that learning is needed. Wish him the best of luck and your genuine hope that it helps him.
Maybe offer to be a reference and resource to talk about it after he has done some of the other reading and engagement. He needs to have a better grounding in the conversation before it will likely be satisfying or useful for either of you.
posted by meinvt at 7:42 PM on August 10, 2020
In any conversation like this, I think that in order to determine the best way to have the conversation you have to define what the goal of having the conversation is. Are you trying to get him to change his profile? His actions? Are you trying to help him have better relationships? Are you trying to point out the conflict between how he acted in your relationship and what he has on his profile? Is this conversation for his benefit or for yours?
Depending on your personality, I would either be direct or look for a non-threatening environment in which you can have a casual conversation that can lead to you bringing it up. If you are the direct type which I am assuming from the very question, I would say to him, "You do realize that the way you behaved in our relationship is in direct conflict with what you wrote in your online profile." He will then ask what you are talking about and you go from there.
Fwiw, if he is as described, he will be defensive and the conversation will not go well while you are having it, but I think he will think about it later in a more introspective way.
Good luck.
posted by AugustWest at 10:04 PM on August 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Depending on your personality, I would either be direct or look for a non-threatening environment in which you can have a casual conversation that can lead to you bringing it up. If you are the direct type which I am assuming from the very question, I would say to him, "You do realize that the way you behaved in our relationship is in direct conflict with what you wrote in your online profile." He will then ask what you are talking about and you go from there.
Fwiw, if he is as described, he will be defensive and the conversation will not go well while you are having it, but I think he will think about it later in a more introspective way.
Good luck.
posted by AugustWest at 10:04 PM on August 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
He's on a long journey to be part of a culture that will listen to you when you say 'these things are important to me, and those are not' or 'I don't owe you for making me food I didn't ask for'. Actions mean more than words and it's in community that those actions have meaning -- i.e. he needs people who will hold him to account. If he's not listening to you about what matters to you, you can't hold him to account.
Given that this action is going to upend his view of self, you'll need tools (hat-tip to a previous Ask) like David Rock's SCARF model to reassure him of his Status/Certainty (for the future)/Autonomy/Relatedness (belonging)/Fairness (of the new state of being) when being told he's at least riding the coat-tails of patriarchal oppression. At most he could: defer his male status and privilege; live an uncertain future; submit his autonomy to act in support of the community of people in the intersection who gain from feminist interests; re-work his relating bonds to fellow humans; and rethink what appears to be fair to him so it's fair to everybody.
You can see why the mods are asking people to stay on track for your 'how..?' ask when they are counseling you against this.
posted by k3ninho at 1:51 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Given that this action is going to upend his view of self, you'll need tools (hat-tip to a previous Ask) like David Rock's SCARF model to reassure him of his Status/Certainty (for the future)/Autonomy/Relatedness (belonging)/Fairness (of the new state of being) when being told he's at least riding the coat-tails of patriarchal oppression. At most he could: defer his male status and privilege; live an uncertain future; submit his autonomy to act in support of the community of people in the intersection who gain from feminist interests; re-work his relating bonds to fellow humans; and rethink what appears to be fair to him so it's fair to everybody.
You can see why the mods are asking people to stay on track for your 'how..?' ask when they are counseling you against this.
posted by k3ninho at 1:51 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’ve had this kind of experience with my ex recently. He’s a long eight year gone ex but he was crowing on twitter answering a question @emrazz aka Feminist Next Door’s about how cis men had helped a woman in a situation where she was the victim of male violence. It was triggering for me to see him crow about how he’d called the police on a neighbour who was yelling abusively at his partner. This is a guy for whom this kind of action (bare minimum that it is) is such an outlier. In our marriage he witnessed me being kicked violently by a stranger in Dublin. Not only did he do nothing, he complained about me ‘going on about it’ and pursuing the guy. The horrible bruise, the fact that I grabbed a Gardai and made a complaint, that we watched the guy get caught and taken away - all that ‘spoiled his whole night’ and he sulked about it when I was upset that he’d done nothing to help. This is one of many such instances in our time together.
I acknowledged to myself as I feel you need to here, that I had been triggered by a painful fact. That the person publishing a hypocritical position in a public forum is imho promulgating a goddammed darn lie etc. I did some personal writing about it for my own benefit or as a way of exhaling about it. I drafted five different tweets in response and couldn’t post any of them without deleting them straight away because I just knew any response would be coded as ‘weirdly angry ex opining’ and it would t get to him at all. I vented to a good friend. I acknowledged that trying to say something to him was not going to be edifying for anyone. Just as it won’t here in your situation.
If this is about feminism and male growth then think about this: If he’s put ‘I’m against toxic masculinity’ in words on a dating profile, it’s a good sign that he’s going to be discussing that opinion with prospective dates when they ask him what he thinks that means. His dates will likely being discussing things with him in response. They may also have a very good barometer for measuring their actual experiences with him against what he has announced as a character trait from the get go.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:18 AM on August 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I acknowledged to myself as I feel you need to here, that I had been triggered by a painful fact. That the person publishing a hypocritical position in a public forum is imho promulgating a goddammed darn lie etc. I did some personal writing about it for my own benefit or as a way of exhaling about it. I drafted five different tweets in response and couldn’t post any of them without deleting them straight away because I just knew any response would be coded as ‘weirdly angry ex opining’ and it would t get to him at all. I vented to a good friend. I acknowledged that trying to say something to him was not going to be edifying for anyone. Just as it won’t here in your situation.
If this is about feminism and male growth then think about this: If he’s put ‘I’m against toxic masculinity’ in words on a dating profile, it’s a good sign that he’s going to be discussing that opinion with prospective dates when they ask him what he thinks that means. His dates will likely being discussing things with him in response. They may also have a very good barometer for measuring their actual experiences with him against what he has announced as a character trait from the get go.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:18 AM on August 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I agree with honey-barbara, if he's put "I don't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture" in his OKC profile, there's the opportunity there for people to ask him, "What does toxic masculinity mean to you, how did you become aware of toxic masculinity, what are you doing to unlearn what you learned, what things did you do in your past that you now see as being part of toxic masculinity?" People dating him are responsible for themselves and let's say you could intervene somehow with him and "protect" the community of women that may date him. The thing is, you're a stranger to these potential daters and who knows if they'd trust you anyway. And who knows if he's likely to listen to you/value your opinion now either way.
So let's play this out. You reach out to your ex. That in itself can be loaded, and is dependent on how things ended, how your relationship to him is now (if any). You say, "I saw on your OKC profile [Ok, but why are you reading his profile?] and saw that you said you don't want to part of toxic masculinity culture. I'd be interested to hear more; I have some thoughts on that." [And then the convo could devolve into why are you reading his profile, why not just skip over it when you saw it, why not block the profile, etc.] I think that's the best way to approach it, asking him first if he wants to engage with you on it. If it's a no, leave him alone of course. If he opens the door to that, I would say something like, "In my experience with you, I noticed you had a lot of entitlement. [Give him examples if he asks] I'm glad you're in therapy and hope you have a good one where you can talk about this stuff; I encourage you to bring it up if you haven't already." And that's basically it. Two sentences. Short and sweet. No long drawn out conversations here about what it is, how he engaged in toxic behaviours, what he's doing now to address it, his current dating experiences, etc. Heck, if you want to give him some resources, drnerdlove.com has some good articles about toxic masculinity. Or, just say "I saw on your OKC profile you don't want to be part of toxic masculinity, here's a good article" and that's it.
The risk you run is that you end up relitigating your relationship. That gets you nowhere; it's like wrestling with a pig in the mud; you both get dirty and the pig likes it. I think it's clear your goal is to get him thinking and maybe improve himself for his next relationship and not cause additional harm to people in your community. Unfortunately I don't think you'll have a lot of impact in that area. He has a therapist, hopefully a good one, and he's surrounded by people who interact with him regularly. Since you have mutual friends, that might be your entry point - talking to them about your experiences with him, asking them if they've noticed he's toxic, etc.
I think the risk is greater to you that you come out of this worse off than him having a positive realization about something. If you do go ahead with his, just keep that in mind.
posted by foxjacket at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2020
So let's play this out. You reach out to your ex. That in itself can be loaded, and is dependent on how things ended, how your relationship to him is now (if any). You say, "I saw on your OKC profile [Ok, but why are you reading his profile?] and saw that you said you don't want to part of toxic masculinity culture. I'd be interested to hear more; I have some thoughts on that." [And then the convo could devolve into why are you reading his profile, why not just skip over it when you saw it, why not block the profile, etc.] I think that's the best way to approach it, asking him first if he wants to engage with you on it. If it's a no, leave him alone of course. If he opens the door to that, I would say something like, "In my experience with you, I noticed you had a lot of entitlement. [Give him examples if he asks] I'm glad you're in therapy and hope you have a good one where you can talk about this stuff; I encourage you to bring it up if you haven't already." And that's basically it. Two sentences. Short and sweet. No long drawn out conversations here about what it is, how he engaged in toxic behaviours, what he's doing now to address it, his current dating experiences, etc. Heck, if you want to give him some resources, drnerdlove.com has some good articles about toxic masculinity. Or, just say "I saw on your OKC profile you don't want to be part of toxic masculinity, here's a good article" and that's it.
The risk you run is that you end up relitigating your relationship. That gets you nowhere; it's like wrestling with a pig in the mud; you both get dirty and the pig likes it. I think it's clear your goal is to get him thinking and maybe improve himself for his next relationship and not cause additional harm to people in your community. Unfortunately I don't think you'll have a lot of impact in that area. He has a therapist, hopefully a good one, and he's surrounded by people who interact with him regularly. Since you have mutual friends, that might be your entry point - talking to them about your experiences with him, asking them if they've noticed he's toxic, etc.
I think the risk is greater to you that you come out of this worse off than him having a positive realization about something. If you do go ahead with his, just keep that in mind.
posted by foxjacket at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2020
Yes, have had success with this with current partner, via three different kinds of conversations.
1) I express my feelings about behaviours in the moment *without* (at the time) labelling it as sexist. Example, “please don’t interrupt me” / “I’d like to finish what I’m saying” / “I feel like I’m not being heard right now and that’s upsetting”.
2) That occurs in the context of “relationship” conversations had at times when both parties are relaxed and open. Eg “I do sometimes feel that I’m not being heard” / “I’d really like more balance in [X domain]”. Then I mention a time I was eg interrupted and use that as an example. Then, and this works really well, I ask him to remember times he’s been interrupted and to think about how that made him feel. I mention that I understand why he sometimes interrupts (in his case, it’s partly a focus thing, or him getting so excited about an idea he can’t sit on it, ties in with some mental health things), I let him know I’m not judging that but that the effect can be that I don’t have an opportunity to participate as much in that conversation. (And it’s ok that it happens sometimes, but when it’s a lot it’s tough on me.) NB I am emphasizing *sometimes*. Nobody wants to hear criticism that’s a blanket label. (This is a lot of EL btw and it’s only worth it to me because on balance it is, AND, he takes this on board, cares, tries, and has succeeded at modifying his communication that way.)
3) We have separate conversations, again when we’re both relaxed and open, where we talk more abstractly about sexism, larger social forces etc.
He connects the dots himself after that, because he’s insightful and motivated to do that. So eg now he notices how other men interrupt women and how women react to that. He’s said a few times, “holy shit, I’ve been so entitled”. And now he catches himself when he’s about to interrupt, makes more space for me in conversations, actively tries to root out the habits of entitlement he’s got... it’s been amazing to see this happen, actually.
But I mean I think this only works because he cares about me a lot, and, we live together, so there are lots of opportunities for these conversations, and he’s invested in a future with me. No way could this happen outside of this situation, I think. Definitely not with an ex.
(And why should you waste your time and effort on this... for me it takes a lot of both, and I get a better relationship for my trouble.)
But ok say you wanted to do this, yeah I think you’d have more success by talking about behaviours without labelling them as expressions of “toxic masculinity” at least right away, that will likely lead to defensiveness. (No one wants to be the bad guy. People want to be seen as trying to be good. Honouring that motivation, I think, will support more engagement and investment.) Then, have separate conversations at different levels and hopefully he’ll connect the dots. Or he may not! But he might still work on a particular habit (eg interrupting) that has the net effect of being less sexist.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:48 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
1) I express my feelings about behaviours in the moment *without* (at the time) labelling it as sexist. Example, “please don’t interrupt me” / “I’d like to finish what I’m saying” / “I feel like I’m not being heard right now and that’s upsetting”.
2) That occurs in the context of “relationship” conversations had at times when both parties are relaxed and open. Eg “I do sometimes feel that I’m not being heard” / “I’d really like more balance in [X domain]”. Then I mention a time I was eg interrupted and use that as an example. Then, and this works really well, I ask him to remember times he’s been interrupted and to think about how that made him feel. I mention that I understand why he sometimes interrupts (in his case, it’s partly a focus thing, or him getting so excited about an idea he can’t sit on it, ties in with some mental health things), I let him know I’m not judging that but that the effect can be that I don’t have an opportunity to participate as much in that conversation. (And it’s ok that it happens sometimes, but when it’s a lot it’s tough on me.) NB I am emphasizing *sometimes*. Nobody wants to hear criticism that’s a blanket label. (This is a lot of EL btw and it’s only worth it to me because on balance it is, AND, he takes this on board, cares, tries, and has succeeded at modifying his communication that way.)
3) We have separate conversations, again when we’re both relaxed and open, where we talk more abstractly about sexism, larger social forces etc.
He connects the dots himself after that, because he’s insightful and motivated to do that. So eg now he notices how other men interrupt women and how women react to that. He’s said a few times, “holy shit, I’ve been so entitled”. And now he catches himself when he’s about to interrupt, makes more space for me in conversations, actively tries to root out the habits of entitlement he’s got... it’s been amazing to see this happen, actually.
But I mean I think this only works because he cares about me a lot, and, we live together, so there are lots of opportunities for these conversations, and he’s invested in a future with me. No way could this happen outside of this situation, I think. Definitely not with an ex.
(And why should you waste your time and effort on this... for me it takes a lot of both, and I get a better relationship for my trouble.)
But ok say you wanted to do this, yeah I think you’d have more success by talking about behaviours without labelling them as expressions of “toxic masculinity” at least right away, that will likely lead to defensiveness. (No one wants to be the bad guy. People want to be seen as trying to be good. Honouring that motivation, I think, will support more engagement and investment.) Then, have separate conversations at different levels and hopefully he’ll connect the dots. Or he may not! But he might still work on a particular habit (eg interrupting) that has the net effect of being less sexist.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:48 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
This
sometimes he would do something "jokey" but inappropriate (like scare me from behind the shower curtain while I was in the shower), and then would keep doing it several times even though I told him "that's creepy" and "hey that's not okay" and finally "don't do that again"
plus this
he wasn't very interested in my pleasure in bed, even saying that the things I wanted were boring or took too long (seriously, wtf)
shows a huge level of entitlement and immaturity as well as a bunch of red flags, and that he didn't see your needs and feelings as equivalent to his at any point. Having someone continue to do something that actively freaks you out after you've asked them not to because it amuses them to watch your fear is awful behavior, and pretending it's a "joke" is just gaslighting.
Honestly, I get where you're coming from, but don't waste your time. He's going to continue to perform whatever minimum level of wokeness gets him the credit he wants without actually doing the work to change, and that definitely extends to any conversation you try to have with him.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:08 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
sometimes he would do something "jokey" but inappropriate (like scare me from behind the shower curtain while I was in the shower), and then would keep doing it several times even though I told him "that's creepy" and "hey that's not okay" and finally "don't do that again"
plus this
he wasn't very interested in my pleasure in bed, even saying that the things I wanted were boring or took too long (seriously, wtf)
shows a huge level of entitlement and immaturity as well as a bunch of red flags, and that he didn't see your needs and feelings as equivalent to his at any point. Having someone continue to do something that actively freaks you out after you've asked them not to because it amuses them to watch your fear is awful behavior, and pretending it's a "joke" is just gaslighting.
Honestly, I get where you're coming from, but don't waste your time. He's going to continue to perform whatever minimum level of wokeness gets him the credit he wants without actually doing the work to change, and that definitely extends to any conversation you try to have with him.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:08 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I had some success addressing this stuff with my ex, during the relationship. One thing that very much got through was talking about the way he was cultured to not believe me, even about my own internal state. It was a simple moment - when I say I am cold, it means I feel cold, your assertion of if I should or shouldn't and dictates about heaters or blankets based on that are kind of mean - but it filtered through more than talking about theory or culture. Believing in a woman's rich internal life and her embodied reality is not a part of mainstream masculinity and a huge part of toxic masculinity. This goes for 'pranking' startle scares, bedroom activities, whatever else. The bedroom stuff I didn't deal with, but what my ex considered gentle teasing often felt hurtful to me - when he realised he was ignoring what I said and insisting I should feel how he feels, he realised it was part of that whole toxic mess. It took a while for some habitual stuff to stop, particularly since it's not clearcut (teasing me for my terrible DIY track record is different to teasing me when something I tried to do fails and I was trying hard and need support and that not always clear) but we have a much better relationship now. We still broke up but that wasn't why, and we are good friends and co-parent well.
That said, I wouldn't class "thanks for cooking" as an expectation of toxic masculinity - my ex and I still do that, and always did. Selfishness in bed can be very gendered but is also complex in terms of consent, pleasure, and responsibility. Negging is also one of those things that can be deeply gendered, but complex in terms of how culture treats men in terms of empathy and sensitivity.
Primarily I would choose one underlying thing, if I were going to address it. The essay from a dude talking about how he just automatically didn't believe women, even women he loved, was a good one, because it gets to the heart of a lot of the toxicity in masculine behaviours - much of it is based in consistent disbelief in the lived experience and internal life of the 'other' (women, queer people, different races, ability, etc). My ex recognising that made him a better person all around, as a dad, ex, romantic partner, co-parent, worker, friend, everything.
(It was also a bit of a disruption for me: without having to justify myself so much it was like expecting another stair at the top of the flight, but also changed the tone when we did disagree because that would still happen and I would be stuck on justifying my point of view rather than addressing the issue - it is possible to understand and be empathic and still not agree on something, and it took us a while to adjust.)
posted by geek anachronism at 3:57 PM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
That said, I wouldn't class "thanks for cooking" as an expectation of toxic masculinity - my ex and I still do that, and always did. Selfishness in bed can be very gendered but is also complex in terms of consent, pleasure, and responsibility. Negging is also one of those things that can be deeply gendered, but complex in terms of how culture treats men in terms of empathy and sensitivity.
Primarily I would choose one underlying thing, if I were going to address it. The essay from a dude talking about how he just automatically didn't believe women, even women he loved, was a good one, because it gets to the heart of a lot of the toxicity in masculine behaviours - much of it is based in consistent disbelief in the lived experience and internal life of the 'other' (women, queer people, different races, ability, etc). My ex recognising that made him a better person all around, as a dad, ex, romantic partner, co-parent, worker, friend, everything.
(It was also a bit of a disruption for me: without having to justify myself so much it was like expecting another stair at the top of the flight, but also changed the tone when we did disagree because that would still happen and I would be stuck on justifying my point of view rather than addressing the issue - it is possible to understand and be empathic and still not agree on something, and it took us a while to adjust.)
posted by geek anachronism at 3:57 PM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's crazy to say something to him but I would get it framed correctly before getting into it.
"I know you said you don't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture. Do you want some feedback about that?"
And wait. If there's no answer, that's your answer. If he actually, specifically says that yes he does want feedback, you give it to him.
You must 1000% not give a shit about his response. If part of you secretly still cares or is wanting validation or apology this won't work.
Also, you must just state facts. Not "you seem entitled," but "you did X, I felt Y." The fact that you felt something is just a fact, it's not up for debate. His specific actions are facts that aren't up for debate. But any interpretation of his actions isn't on the table. You're not here for a debate, you're here to give him the gift of information.
posted by selfmedicating at 4:32 PM on August 11, 2020
"I know you said you don't want to be part of toxic masculinity culture. Do you want some feedback about that?"
And wait. If there's no answer, that's your answer. If he actually, specifically says that yes he does want feedback, you give it to him.
You must 1000% not give a shit about his response. If part of you secretly still cares or is wanting validation or apology this won't work.
Also, you must just state facts. Not "you seem entitled," but "you did X, I felt Y." The fact that you felt something is just a fact, it's not up for debate. His specific actions are facts that aren't up for debate. But any interpretation of his actions isn't on the table. You're not here for a debate, you're here to give him the gift of information.
posted by selfmedicating at 4:32 PM on August 11, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by k8lin at 3:44 PM on August 10, 2020 [8 favorites]