How to deal with men's negative humor?
December 27, 2018 9:30 AM Subscribe
Why does every joke have to be mean or mocking?
Over the past couple years, I have noticed that the majority of men in my life - including the ones I love and care for - tend to have a very negative style of joking and humor. It seems like most of the time, another person is the butt of the joke in one way or another. Further, if the person they're mocking expresses hurt or displeasure at this joke, they are "overreacting," "too sensitive," "no sense of humor" etc, etc. I think it's obvious this is poor behavior, but it's so widespread it's not as easy as just "Don't hang out with people who act like that."
Examples:
1. My ex - who I loved dearly and who I'm still friends with - could just NOT stop making fun of me for the oddest things, no matter how many times I said I didn't like it. He would make fun of me for not being able to walk in a straight line (?!), being a homebody, being forgetful, being anxious, etc, etc. I could never tell how much these things actually bothered him, or if he really just found them "funny." I couldn't tell if he actually thought I was exceptionally forgetful or clumsy or whatever, or just enjoyed poking fun at me as a way of expressing affection somehow. It made me feel crazy. It made me feel on guard around him all of the time.
2. On the first anniversary of buying my house, I posted a "before and after" picture on social media, talking about how far I'd come. My brother posted a joking response criticizing the "after" and praising the "before" picture. It's silly, but it really felt belittling of all the effort I'd put in. All of my female friends/sisters, conversely, did nothing but send congratulations and praise my efforts, admire the results, etc. Another common problem with my brothers is them "jokingly" telling me to "shut the fuck up" in casual conversation, or other harsh statements. I guess it's funny because it's so extreme? In general, they rarely engage unless it's to make some sort of joke at my expense. It's very difficult to have a real relationship when you can't talk without being made fun of for being lame or annoying or whatever. To be fair, they also mock each other incessantly and seem to enjoy it.
3. A guy I am casually dating loves to joke about my roommate - who is a dear friend of mine - in ways that I know are jokes because they are so outlandish, but it's still uncomfortable for me. For instance if we can hear her in another room moving about normally, he'll say something like "Ugh, (Roommate) is so mad, listen to her slamming things around in there." He'll also be "fake mad" a lot, in a playful way, but it honestly gets really boring and repetitive for me because I don't know how to respond. Like, I'll tell him I watched a movie, and he'll pretend to be mad because I'm "watching all the good movies without him." Or, recently he sent a text that I found confusing, so I asked him to clarify if he was talking about me or XYZ person, and he said "XYZ person of course! Not everything is about you, geez!" Again, obviously a joke, but cumulatively it's exhausting.
I have also broken up with other people I've casually dated because every (lame) joke they tell is at my expense and it's just so boring and tiring and frankly, annoying. One guy who I went on a few dates with loved to proclaim I was "white girl wasted" whenever we were drinking (together! in moderation!) In the worst cases - not men I care about, but men I interact with at times - they'll talk with scorn about "PC culture" and they think they have a right to say whatever mean-spirited, banal jokes they want without reproach. Offensive jokes are one thing, but when they're not even clever or don't make sense it's even worse!
If I was reading this question, I would probably say, "Ugh, all these guys are jerks! Drop them!" But this happens even with men who I really think are in the top 5% of men out there - my ex, my brothers. I do think they're good people, and I don't really know why they act like this, and why they can't stop. I assume it's something to do with masculinity and men's culture that I just don't understand. The fact that it's often linked with them feeling hurt and defensive when called on it makes it more problematic to deal with.
I guess my question has three tiers.
1. Why do men do this? If you're a man who does this, what are you thinking? If you're a man who used to do this and stopped, what changed your perspective? If you're a woman married to a man who doesn't do this, how did you find him? ; )
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
3. What are some good responses when men I DON'T care about act like this? When I just want to end the conversation, and preferably not give them an opening to tell me how sensitive and irrational I am.
Thanks.
Over the past couple years, I have noticed that the majority of men in my life - including the ones I love and care for - tend to have a very negative style of joking and humor. It seems like most of the time, another person is the butt of the joke in one way or another. Further, if the person they're mocking expresses hurt or displeasure at this joke, they are "overreacting," "too sensitive," "no sense of humor" etc, etc. I think it's obvious this is poor behavior, but it's so widespread it's not as easy as just "Don't hang out with people who act like that."
Examples:
1. My ex - who I loved dearly and who I'm still friends with - could just NOT stop making fun of me for the oddest things, no matter how many times I said I didn't like it. He would make fun of me for not being able to walk in a straight line (?!), being a homebody, being forgetful, being anxious, etc, etc. I could never tell how much these things actually bothered him, or if he really just found them "funny." I couldn't tell if he actually thought I was exceptionally forgetful or clumsy or whatever, or just enjoyed poking fun at me as a way of expressing affection somehow. It made me feel crazy. It made me feel on guard around him all of the time.
2. On the first anniversary of buying my house, I posted a "before and after" picture on social media, talking about how far I'd come. My brother posted a joking response criticizing the "after" and praising the "before" picture. It's silly, but it really felt belittling of all the effort I'd put in. All of my female friends/sisters, conversely, did nothing but send congratulations and praise my efforts, admire the results, etc. Another common problem with my brothers is them "jokingly" telling me to "shut the fuck up" in casual conversation, or other harsh statements. I guess it's funny because it's so extreme? In general, they rarely engage unless it's to make some sort of joke at my expense. It's very difficult to have a real relationship when you can't talk without being made fun of for being lame or annoying or whatever. To be fair, they also mock each other incessantly and seem to enjoy it.
3. A guy I am casually dating loves to joke about my roommate - who is a dear friend of mine - in ways that I know are jokes because they are so outlandish, but it's still uncomfortable for me. For instance if we can hear her in another room moving about normally, he'll say something like "Ugh, (Roommate) is so mad, listen to her slamming things around in there." He'll also be "fake mad" a lot, in a playful way, but it honestly gets really boring and repetitive for me because I don't know how to respond. Like, I'll tell him I watched a movie, and he'll pretend to be mad because I'm "watching all the good movies without him." Or, recently he sent a text that I found confusing, so I asked him to clarify if he was talking about me or XYZ person, and he said "XYZ person of course! Not everything is about you, geez!" Again, obviously a joke, but cumulatively it's exhausting.
I have also broken up with other people I've casually dated because every (lame) joke they tell is at my expense and it's just so boring and tiring and frankly, annoying. One guy who I went on a few dates with loved to proclaim I was "white girl wasted" whenever we were drinking (together! in moderation!) In the worst cases - not men I care about, but men I interact with at times - they'll talk with scorn about "PC culture" and they think they have a right to say whatever mean-spirited, banal jokes they want without reproach. Offensive jokes are one thing, but when they're not even clever or don't make sense it's even worse!
If I was reading this question, I would probably say, "Ugh, all these guys are jerks! Drop them!" But this happens even with men who I really think are in the top 5% of men out there - my ex, my brothers. I do think they're good people, and I don't really know why they act like this, and why they can't stop. I assume it's something to do with masculinity and men's culture that I just don't understand. The fact that it's often linked with them feeling hurt and defensive when called on it makes it more problematic to deal with.
I guess my question has three tiers.
1. Why do men do this? If you're a man who does this, what are you thinking? If you're a man who used to do this and stopped, what changed your perspective? If you're a woman married to a man who doesn't do this, how did you find him? ; )
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
3. What are some good responses when men I DON'T care about act like this? When I just want to end the conversation, and preferably not give them an opening to tell me how sensitive and irrational I am.
Thanks.
My male partner and male friends don't do this, because people who do this and don't stop when it's pointed out are assholes, and I don't hang out with them. It is really prevalent in society, though. (Grasping the punching down vs. punching up difference was important for me, as was becoming familiar with comedians like Hari Kondabolu, John Mulaney, etc. whose routines are built around types of humor that aren't mean.)
posted by wintersweet at 9:42 AM on December 27, 2018 [38 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 9:42 AM on December 27, 2018 [38 favorites]
I'm a man that used to do this. I can't say how I got into that habit, exactly, although I will observe that my family mostly communicates through good-natured insults. How I got out of it was A) I stopped being a teenager, and B) there were women in my life who reacted negatively to that kind of conversational style (I won't call it "humor") and because they were important to me, I stopped.
If someone says "I was just joking" remind them that a joke is supposed to be funny. If someone says "you have no sense of humor," invite them to say something funny for a change. If someone says "you're too sensitive," respond that no, they're just mean-spirited.
posted by adamrice at 9:45 AM on December 27, 2018 [33 favorites]
If someone says "I was just joking" remind them that a joke is supposed to be funny. If someone says "you have no sense of humor," invite them to say something funny for a change. If someone says "you're too sensitive," respond that no, they're just mean-spirited.
posted by adamrice at 9:45 AM on December 27, 2018 [33 favorites]
Best answer: This is so prevalent and simultaneously so toxic and also triggering for me because of the aforementioned prevalence and toxicity in my own life that when my son at the age of 4 discovered the phrase "just kidding!" I immediately moved to establish that jokes are only jokes if they are funny for everyone (keeping in mind I'm using preschooler logic and language here) and "just kidding" does not excuse you from what you just said. It took about two weeks for that phrase (and the concept behind it) to disappear from his vocabulary. If a 4 year old can learn this basic concept, so can grownass men. I have zero tolerance. (I also have some deeply personal and harrowing examples of weaponized "only joking" that I'm not afraid to lay right out on the table if anyone feels like pushing back against me on this. Come at me, Bros.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:52 AM on December 27, 2018 [113 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:52 AM on December 27, 2018 [113 favorites]
Best answer: That is to say, be direct, lay out boundaries for men in your life who you wish to keep in your life (all others, do not reward with attention, do not politely laugh) and tell them honestly how this style of discourse makes you feel. Either they care enough about you to make an effort to change, or you know now where you stand with them and can act accordingly.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:54 AM on December 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:54 AM on December 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Masculine socialization is the reason for it, and it’s energized by homophobia and misogyny. Starts even before puberty, the purpose being to stamp out non-gender-conforming emotions and identities. Put-downs are also, I guess, a creative mode of expression guys spend years honing and take pride in (the pinnacle of this art being the roast). It’s boring and I can’t suggest anything other than ignoring it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
Best answer: 1. Why do men do this? If you're a man who does this, what are you thinking? If you're a man who used to do this and stopped, what changed your perspective? If you're a woman married to a man who doesn't do this, how did you find him?
I think the most charitable answer here is that it's a way of expressing closeness. The idea is that you can get away with saying things to your friends and family that a stranger would never tolerate. So joking like this to someone becomes a way of saying "You're my friend! You're family! We're close!" — and, at least in some contexts, not joking like this becomes a way of saying "You're nothing to me. I am keeping you at a coldly professional distance."
That doesn't obligate you to like it, or to put up with it, or to participate in it. (It is a very male-gendered way of interacting, which means that refusing to do it just makes you Not One Of The Guys and not A Total Failure At Gender.) But... when people do it in a spirit of kindness, to someone they genuinely like, and are genuinely baffled when it doesn't land well, that's the reason why.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2018 [51 favorites]
I think the most charitable answer here is that it's a way of expressing closeness. The idea is that you can get away with saying things to your friends and family that a stranger would never tolerate. So joking like this to someone becomes a way of saying "You're my friend! You're family! We're close!" — and, at least in some contexts, not joking like this becomes a way of saying "You're nothing to me. I am keeping you at a coldly professional distance."
That doesn't obligate you to like it, or to put up with it, or to participate in it. (It is a very male-gendered way of interacting, which means that refusing to do it just makes you Not One Of The Guys and not A Total Failure At Gender.) But... when people do it in a spirit of kindness, to someone they genuinely like, and are genuinely baffled when it doesn't land well, that's the reason why.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2018 [51 favorites]
Some people just have this sense of humor. I do myself, sometimes—but only with people who I trust to take it as intended. If I don't know that the person I'm joking with will take my insults as jokes, I just don't go there. So it's kind of a way of reaffirming that my interlocutor and I are very comfortable and familiar with each other, that we can mock each other harmlessly. It's not just a man thing, I absolutely know women who do this as well.
If someone isn't mature enough to realize that this kind of humor is context-sensitive though, or to realize that some people just don't play like that no matter how close they are, then that's kind of on them. You can try to educate them if you think it would be worth it to you, or you can ask them to just humor you by not doing it in your presence. But really it's a maturity thing, to realize that people have different senses of humor and that some kinds of jokes can easily be hurtful, and moderate one's behavior accordingly. If they're not only unaware of this stuff but also resistant to being taught it, well, that's not something that you necessarily need to have any patience for.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
If someone isn't mature enough to realize that this kind of humor is context-sensitive though, or to realize that some people just don't play like that no matter how close they are, then that's kind of on them. You can try to educate them if you think it would be worth it to you, or you can ask them to just humor you by not doing it in your presence. But really it's a maturity thing, to realize that people have different senses of humor and that some kinds of jokes can easily be hurtful, and moderate one's behavior accordingly. If they're not only unaware of this stuff but also resistant to being taught it, well, that's not something that you necessarily need to have any patience for.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Sincerity is on a continuum with vulnerability. By contrast, sarcasm and its relatives can function as layers between the rest of the world and the "real" you/me, whatever that is. (They can also be vital to at least some close relationships, yes.)
So that's one reason so many men do this, so often. To avoid the terrifying-to-him possibility of everyone seeing his feelings, thoughts, and personality more nakedly.
Related to that insecurity is the dominance factor, even with men who otherwise aren't competitive or conventionally masculine. If you're talking to the kind of man who does this a lot, and you ask him to please stop, there's a solid chance he ups it more, not even intentionally but out of instinct, as a backlash. (To be clear, I don't mean "unintentionally" as exculpatory, but almost the opposite, the jerkitude so bat that it's a habit.)
Some of those men have later had the road-to-Damascus moment where they get why they actually, truly shouldn't; that it's not funny or original. But many others haven't outgrown this adult variation on poking-my-brother-because-he-and-Mom-and-Dad-all-told-me-to-stop-and-nobody-is-the-boss-of-me.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:02 AM on December 27, 2018 [23 favorites]
So that's one reason so many men do this, so often. To avoid the terrifying-to-him possibility of everyone seeing his feelings, thoughts, and personality more nakedly.
Related to that insecurity is the dominance factor, even with men who otherwise aren't competitive or conventionally masculine. If you're talking to the kind of man who does this a lot, and you ask him to please stop, there's a solid chance he ups it more, not even intentionally but out of instinct, as a backlash. (To be clear, I don't mean "unintentionally" as exculpatory, but almost the opposite, the jerkitude so bat that it's a habit.)
Some of those men have later had the road-to-Damascus moment where they get why they actually, truly shouldn't; that it's not funny or original. But many others haven't outgrown this adult variation on poking-my-brother-because-he-and-Mom-and-Dad-all-told-me-to-stop-and-nobody-is-the-boss-of-me.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:02 AM on December 27, 2018 [23 favorites]
Yup, me and my really close friends have historically engaged in this type humor and yes, it's deeply shitty. In my circle it is mostly just a function of having known each other a really long time and being so familiar with roasting each other, so in some fucked toxicly masculine way it's probably a show of affection and closeness? On preview others have called this out and phrased it better than I have, this shitty behavior that we've been engaging in since childhood.
Once we had one friend - newer to our group - that we were riffing with a little too hard and they finally kind of exploded at us and left the room. It forced us to re-examine our behavior and have a discussion about what the hell we were doing - to us, we were ribbing them because we GENUINELY loved them and felt comfortable enough to do so! To them, we were being fucking assholes plain and simple. We apologized and are close again and now we just watch ourselves with that stuff. Their friendship was absolutely more important to us than maintaining a stupid "edgy" roasting dynamic.
I guess what I'm saying is don't be afraid to snap at them - "you know what, I don't have to listen to this shit it's not that funny - I'm leaving." Then leave. If they apologize, great. If they stick to "it was only a joke dudddee!!! jeeez" then now you know they suck massively and value their shitty irony-bro jokes more than having you around.
posted by windbox at 10:08 AM on December 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Once we had one friend - newer to our group - that we were riffing with a little too hard and they finally kind of exploded at us and left the room. It forced us to re-examine our behavior and have a discussion about what the hell we were doing - to us, we were ribbing them because we GENUINELY loved them and felt comfortable enough to do so! To them, we were being fucking assholes plain and simple. We apologized and are close again and now we just watch ourselves with that stuff. Their friendship was absolutely more important to us than maintaining a stupid "edgy" roasting dynamic.
I guess what I'm saying is don't be afraid to snap at them - "you know what, I don't have to listen to this shit it's not that funny - I'm leaving." Then leave. If they apologize, great. If they stick to "it was only a joke dudddee!!! jeeez" then now you know they suck massively and value their shitty irony-bro jokes more than having you around.
posted by windbox at 10:08 AM on December 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
It occurs to me, too, as I'm thinking about this, that for a lot of guys the game that's played around this sort of joke includes many, many rounds of shots fired back and forth. There's plenty of dude conversations that go
A: [snappy sarcastic comment]
B: Oh, fuck you.
A: [suggestion that B is less of a man if he can't take the heat]
B: [reminder of a time A got upset over much less]
A: Oh, fuck you.
B: [observation that A is less of a man if he can't take the heat]
and on and on and on. Such that (obnoxiously, unfortunately, shittily) if you respond to this stuff by acting upset in a high-energy, argumentative sort of way, it might be mistaken for playing along and participating in the game by guys who aren't paying close enough attention to the content of what you're saying.
I think windbox's suggestion of standing up and leaving is ideal. If they're doing it to be shitty and abusive, you cut off the abuse. If they're doing it thinking that it's high-spirited fun and you're both enjoying the game, it makes it clear you're done playing. And either way it means you don't have to listen to them anymore.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:17 AM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
A: [snappy sarcastic comment]
B: Oh, fuck you.
A: [suggestion that B is less of a man if he can't take the heat]
B: [reminder of a time A got upset over much less]
A: Oh, fuck you.
B: [observation that A is less of a man if he can't take the heat]
and on and on and on. Such that (obnoxiously, unfortunately, shittily) if you respond to this stuff by acting upset in a high-energy, argumentative sort of way, it might be mistaken for playing along and participating in the game by guys who aren't paying close enough attention to the content of what you're saying.
I think windbox's suggestion of standing up and leaving is ideal. If they're doing it to be shitty and abusive, you cut off the abuse. If they're doing it thinking that it's high-spirited fun and you're both enjoying the game, it makes it clear you're done playing. And either way it means you don't have to listen to them anymore.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:17 AM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
You are correct that many men resort to this sort of mean "humor". It's so damn tiresome and immature. I've found a pretty effective way to shut it down. Maybe this will work for you too.
Dude: [says mean "joke" about someone]
Me: That's not cool, cut it out
Dude: It was just a joke
Me: Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?
Dude: ...
posted by scantee at 10:20 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Dude: [says mean "joke" about someone]
Me: That's not cool, cut it out
Dude: It was just a joke
Me: Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?
Dude: ...
posted by scantee at 10:20 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: 1. Why do men do this? If you're a man who does this, what are you thinking? If you're a man who used to do this and stopped, what changed your perspective? If you're a woman married to a man who doesn't do this, how did you find him? ; )
Guys start doing this at a very early age to establish a dude pecking order. The guys who can dish it back can hang, the guys who get upset and defensive get eaten alive.
Eventually the idea that you act like a massive dick to your best and closest friends gets internalized, and if you aren't super self-aware, you start treating other people who haven't been through young male pecking order socialization in the same way. Because you love them! I love my sister, so I'll tell her "shut the fuck up!" in a completely casual and unserious way! I love my girlfriend, so I will needle her relentlessly about some minor behaviors she's barely aware she's doing! Jesus, ladies, why are you getting so bent out of shape at me for showing love???
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
IME in this particular brosocial context icy silence tends to communicate "this joke sucked and it hurt me" better than saying outright, "this joke sucked and it hurt me." You let the joke fall on stony ground, taking no roots in laughter or acknowledgement, and briskly move on.
Yes, I'm aware of how ass-backwards and messed up this all is.
I do think that if you want to train guys you really care about out of doing this, you need to sit them down and be like look, this is what you're doing and I think this is why you're doing it, I get that your masculinity will pop like a gossamer soap bubble if you stop acting like this with your bros but you need to learn how to fucking code switch. Good guys will listen! You don't owe them a handheld walk through the journey of Not Being A Dick To Women, but it's often much more expedient than waiting for them to have a moment of revelation on their own.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:20 AM on December 27, 2018 [46 favorites]
Guys start doing this at a very early age to establish a dude pecking order. The guys who can dish it back can hang, the guys who get upset and defensive get eaten alive.
Eventually the idea that you act like a massive dick to your best and closest friends gets internalized, and if you aren't super self-aware, you start treating other people who haven't been through young male pecking order socialization in the same way. Because you love them! I love my sister, so I'll tell her "shut the fuck up!" in a completely casual and unserious way! I love my girlfriend, so I will needle her relentlessly about some minor behaviors she's barely aware she's doing! Jesus, ladies, why are you getting so bent out of shape at me for showing love???
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
IME in this particular brosocial context icy silence tends to communicate "this joke sucked and it hurt me" better than saying outright, "this joke sucked and it hurt me." You let the joke fall on stony ground, taking no roots in laughter or acknowledgement, and briskly move on.
Yes, I'm aware of how ass-backwards and messed up this all is.
I do think that if you want to train guys you really care about out of doing this, you need to sit them down and be like look, this is what you're doing and I think this is why you're doing it, I get that your masculinity will pop like a gossamer soap bubble if you stop acting like this with your bros but you need to learn how to fucking code switch. Good guys will listen! You don't owe them a handheld walk through the journey of Not Being A Dick To Women, but it's often much more expedient than waiting for them to have a moment of revelation on their own.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:20 AM on December 27, 2018 [46 favorites]
It's terrible. I have never had any luck changing this kind of culture and just remove myself from spaces where it happens, as I've gotten older and understood myself and my desires better. I can tell you that it is pretty pervasive in male spaces. "locker room talk" isn't about sexual assault in my experience, but it is about *this*. Not All Men are like this, but an incredible amount are.
posted by Kwine at 10:23 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Kwine at 10:23 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I find it hilarious, enraging, and ridiculous that the very first comment here is “not all men!!” The OP’s problem specifically is that all men she knows do this.
OP, I think the problem here is the patriarchy. Men experience almost no consequences for being assholes to other people. It’s expected and “acceptable” behavior for them growing up, whereas girls growing up are quickly chastised for the same behavior. Even “good” men are like this because they have absolutely no incentive to improve or change when almost everyone tolerates the behavior, AND they’ve also been trained by the patriarchy not to care about women’s feelings (hence the “you’re overreacting”).
All you can do is set your boundaries and walk away, if possible, if men don’t respect that.
posted by a strong female character at 10:25 AM on December 27, 2018 [22 favorites]
OP, I think the problem here is the patriarchy. Men experience almost no consequences for being assholes to other people. It’s expected and “acceptable” behavior for them growing up, whereas girls growing up are quickly chastised for the same behavior. Even “good” men are like this because they have absolutely no incentive to improve or change when almost everyone tolerates the behavior, AND they’ve also been trained by the patriarchy not to care about women’s feelings (hence the “you’re overreacting”).
All you can do is set your boundaries and walk away, if possible, if men don’t respect that.
posted by a strong female character at 10:25 AM on December 27, 2018 [22 favorites]
I hate to sound all bleak about this, but: most men in this society will do whatever they can get away with to the women around them. You can't cajole them out of it, or reason them out of it, because that would require them to think about anything other than the joys of dominance. Really in the end the only thing you can do is demonstrate to them that they don't have the power to do it to you. When it happens, cut the conversation off. Ignore the subsequent whining. Very matter of fact: "you can't talk to me like that, and I'm not going to let you." If you need to leave, leave. Otherwise, talk to someone else. This is not punishment. This is establishing that you have the power to set the terms on which the two of you interact.
(Obviously this only works with rough social peers. I don't recommend it for, e.g., your boss.)
posted by praemunire at 10:26 AM on December 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
(Obviously this only works with rough social peers. I don't recommend it for, e.g., your boss.)
posted by praemunire at 10:26 AM on December 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
I’m a woman and I grew up in this kind of teasing culture or perhaps a different kind altogether because I have a very different relation to it than what I read in the comments. I now live in another country where teasing is viewed as unkind and not the done thing, and I miss it. For me, it means closeness, seeing each other’s weak spots and making light of them, signaling that they don’t matter, we just like each other. It means finding the fun and absurdity in our humanity and chuckle at it together. Of course it only works in tandem with self deprecating humor and as a give and take on equal footing, not punching down.
posted by meijusa at 10:41 AM on December 27, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by meijusa at 10:41 AM on December 27, 2018 [30 favorites]
Best answer: My brother works with middle-schoolers and recently remarked that he didn't realize how differently the kids had already been socialized. That is, extended sarcastic ribbing worked to build rapport with male students, but after the 3rd or 4th female student responded very negatively to the same, he finally realized his approach was the common denominator and cut it out.
My theory is that boys learn interact with each other this way because boys, in our culture, aren't socialized to learn how to perform emotional care-taking or intimacy very well, and this kind of teasing/ribbing conveys a sort of friendliness, but also very much keeps any kind of real intimacy-building communication at arm's length, and keeps the relationship safely shallow. Girls seem to be socialized to do much more intimacy-building work with each other in their own relationships, from a fairly young age. Unfortunately some (many??) boys often enter adulthood having never figured out that the dynamic is horrible for relationships where you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO ESTABLISH AND NURTURE INTIMACY, like partnerhood or parenthood.
Some of the pushback suggested above would probably be helpful, but also if he doesn't really seem to get why this is not just shittily unpleasant but also kind of harmful to the relationship, you may need to have a come-to-Jesus conversation with him and explain it to him like he's a middle-schooler.
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 10:42 AM on December 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
My theory is that boys learn interact with each other this way because boys, in our culture, aren't socialized to learn how to perform emotional care-taking or intimacy very well, and this kind of teasing/ribbing conveys a sort of friendliness, but also very much keeps any kind of real intimacy-building communication at arm's length, and keeps the relationship safely shallow. Girls seem to be socialized to do much more intimacy-building work with each other in their own relationships, from a fairly young age. Unfortunately some (many??) boys often enter adulthood having never figured out that the dynamic is horrible for relationships where you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO ESTABLISH AND NURTURE INTIMACY, like partnerhood or parenthood.
Some of the pushback suggested above would probably be helpful, but also if he doesn't really seem to get why this is not just shittily unpleasant but also kind of harmful to the relationship, you may need to have a come-to-Jesus conversation with him and explain it to him like he's a middle-schooler.
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 10:42 AM on December 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
How would you feel about emailing a link to this conversation to the men in your life, outing yourself as the author of the question. You could discuss it with any who were so inclined, or they could just do a little reflection and, with luck.shape up.
posted by kate4914 at 10:55 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by kate4914 at 10:55 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I used to be more like this (although I hope I was not at the level you're describing). What shocked me out of it was that I told a college roommate that I liked her outfit, and she responded by rolling her eyes and saying "Shut UP, Emmy!" She sounded hurt. Then I tried to explain that I had been sincere, but everything I said to explain came off as sarcastic and mocking. At that point I realized if I could not say a sincere compliment and be taken seriously, the positive feelings I have towards my friends would be forever hidden. So I really tried to change how I joked around and be more deliberate in complimenting people when I had something positive to share.
Based on that, my answer to #2 (What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.) is to respond with something like "That's not funny to me. If you think my remodeling work is stupid, I would rather not talk about it with you at all." Or "I know you're joking, but I really care about this. What do you actually think?" and then if they respond sincerely, say "Thank you. I don't know why you have to start by saying something mean."
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:14 AM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Based on that, my answer to #2 (What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.) is to respond with something like "That's not funny to me. If you think my remodeling work is stupid, I would rather not talk about it with you at all." Or "I know you're joking, but I really care about this. What do you actually think?" and then if they respond sincerely, say "Thank you. I don't know why you have to start by saying something mean."
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:14 AM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
On social media, I have no tolerance - say something I don't like for any reason and I'll delete it. My Dad can be this way when he thinks he's being "funny", but he's learning from my sisters and I that we're not going to put up with it (my sister even unfriended him for awhile).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well this was a welcome slap in the face to how I sometimes treat my wife. I'm going to make a great effort to change this ASAP as I've noticed it wearing on her and the last thing I want to do is keep her on edge around me. She should feel the opposite. I don't have more to add, everyone else has summed up why men do this and how to counter it. I just felt the need to let you know that this woke me tf up.
posted by MNMCSOJGPFTAATMOTTSOITATTMSFMVOOW at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2018 [85 favorites]
posted by MNMCSOJGPFTAATMOTTSOITATTMSFMVOOW at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2018 [85 favorites]
Best answer: You may not have much luck changing men who are casually in your life. Lots of men need to be incentivized by sex or companionship before giving a fuck what women think. The men who don't have that incentive with you may not care at all, and the best defence may just be to enforce your own boundary and minimize interactions with them.
With men I do want to keep, I have a non-directional conversation about how I don't like sarcasm. I even went so far as to put that directly in my dating profile. I like people who say exactly what they mean, whether that's affectionate or critical or whatever. Doesn't need to be earnest and sincere all the time (although earnestness and sincerity are actually lovely and effective and are highly underrated!). But I definitely hate joking around where people say untrue / mean things and, like some playground "opposite day" thing, I'm supposed to find it funny.
I have managed to cultivate a bit of a vibe that makes SOME men (sadly Not All Men) stop making this kind of joke at me. I clearly project that I don't like it, but also that other kinds of jokes are ok with me, and I don't think I'm seen as humourless by most people.
I think what helped was me being totally crystal clear within myself that I don't like this kind of humour. I know that I have thought about humour, and I have concluded, as stated above, that this variety is often a sign of a shitty, competitive relationship. Overteasing is the action a person who's out of touch with their feelings and terrified to seem vulnerable, which are attributes that to be honest I actually have contempt for. And I'm also proud that I have a hard line on this shit. I'm not ashamed or ambivalent about hating sarcastic teasing, at all. So even if I don't say anything, I think that my internal "flat nope" comes across in subtle ways, and people tend not to try teasing me, or the tend to stop after they try it the first time.
Also, I'm not at all meaning to be victim blamey with the above paragraph. These men don't do it because maybe you acted like you like it and it's your fault. To be clear, these men actually don't care what you like; they never thought about it, nor tried for a minute to observe your reactions and guess what you DO like and spend an iota of energy doing that. What they like is feeling protected and feeling dominant and feeling powerful, and that's the end.
But I do think that not all men who do this are equally awful, and that embedded in the less-shitty men's enjoyment of feeling dominant is also a dislike of social friction. So communicating a subtle HARD NOPE can sometimes be juuuust enough friction to dissuade the less-shitty dudes out there. Like, they MIGHT learn to act better if acting wrong is made uncomfortable. And making it uncomfortable can sometimes be done without a huge output of effort, so sometimes it's worth it to try things like a flat stare, or not-laughing, or a snappy, non-engaging "stoppit!", or "was that a joke? huh" or other low-drama shut-downs. etc.
Anyway, hopefully seeing the resounding chorus of OH GAWD in this thread has validated everyone's feelings and empowered a bunch of people here to realize that shitty jokes feel shitty and are shitty and deserve no ambivalent tolerance! Fuck em. Hard nope. Walk away and let it burn behind you! Thanks for asking this question, I love seeing the green take a pretty hard line on this.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:00 PM on December 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
With men I do want to keep, I have a non-directional conversation about how I don't like sarcasm. I even went so far as to put that directly in my dating profile. I like people who say exactly what they mean, whether that's affectionate or critical or whatever. Doesn't need to be earnest and sincere all the time (although earnestness and sincerity are actually lovely and effective and are highly underrated!). But I definitely hate joking around where people say untrue / mean things and, like some playground "opposite day" thing, I'm supposed to find it funny.
I have managed to cultivate a bit of a vibe that makes SOME men (sadly Not All Men) stop making this kind of joke at me. I clearly project that I don't like it, but also that other kinds of jokes are ok with me, and I don't think I'm seen as humourless by most people.
I think what helped was me being totally crystal clear within myself that I don't like this kind of humour. I know that I have thought about humour, and I have concluded, as stated above, that this variety is often a sign of a shitty, competitive relationship. Overteasing is the action a person who's out of touch with their feelings and terrified to seem vulnerable, which are attributes that to be honest I actually have contempt for. And I'm also proud that I have a hard line on this shit. I'm not ashamed or ambivalent about hating sarcastic teasing, at all. So even if I don't say anything, I think that my internal "flat nope" comes across in subtle ways, and people tend not to try teasing me, or the tend to stop after they try it the first time.
Also, I'm not at all meaning to be victim blamey with the above paragraph. These men don't do it because maybe you acted like you like it and it's your fault. To be clear, these men actually don't care what you like; they never thought about it, nor tried for a minute to observe your reactions and guess what you DO like and spend an iota of energy doing that. What they like is feeling protected and feeling dominant and feeling powerful, and that's the end.
But I do think that not all men who do this are equally awful, and that embedded in the less-shitty men's enjoyment of feeling dominant is also a dislike of social friction. So communicating a subtle HARD NOPE can sometimes be juuuust enough friction to dissuade the less-shitty dudes out there. Like, they MIGHT learn to act better if acting wrong is made uncomfortable. And making it uncomfortable can sometimes be done without a huge output of effort, so sometimes it's worth it to try things like a flat stare, or not-laughing, or a snappy, non-engaging "stoppit!", or "was that a joke? huh" or other low-drama shut-downs. etc.
Anyway, hopefully seeing the resounding chorus of OH GAWD in this thread has validated everyone's feelings and empowered a bunch of people here to realize that shitty jokes feel shitty and are shitty and deserve no ambivalent tolerance! Fuck em. Hard nope. Walk away and let it burn behind you! Thanks for asking this question, I love seeing the green take a pretty hard line on this.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:00 PM on December 27, 2018 [21 favorites]
I've tried to break this habit, and have found it difficult because it's such a big part of the popular culture I grew up with, and I feel like for most of the last 30-40 years, being quick with a sarcastic putdown has been portrayed as the thing that smart, powerful, well-cultured men do, and in the last 20 years, the internet has made message louder and clearer. I also believe that I was taught to believe was that being impervious to other people's mocking was the right way to be, so it was a personal failing to be upset by someone making fun of you. These are shitty attitudes, but I feel they are pretty strongly/clearly encouraged in contemporary U.S. culture.
One thing that made me not want to do this anymore was hearing people express the fact that it's hurtful to be mocked. I started to think that it's good to be sensitive, and it's normal and healthy to not like being mocked. And now half the time I feel like the world's biggest killjoy, as I don't respond positively to the kinds of humor that I found consistently enjoyable for the first two or three decades of my life. And that kind of humor is still a big deal, for all the reasons mentioned upthread.
One suggestion as a way a person might respond is to head off any criticism about being overly sensitive (which is bullshit, but still): you can say, "maybe you think I'm being too sensitive, but either way, I don't like it, it makes me feel bad."
posted by skewed at 12:06 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
One thing that made me not want to do this anymore was hearing people express the fact that it's hurtful to be mocked. I started to think that it's good to be sensitive, and it's normal and healthy to not like being mocked. And now half the time I feel like the world's biggest killjoy, as I don't respond positively to the kinds of humor that I found consistently enjoyable for the first two or three decades of my life. And that kind of humor is still a big deal, for all the reasons mentioned upthread.
One suggestion as a way a person might respond is to head off any criticism about being overly sensitive (which is bullshit, but still): you can say, "maybe you think I'm being too sensitive, but either way, I don't like it, it makes me feel bad."
posted by skewed at 12:06 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Echoing everyone else that it's a pecking order/in-group habit and that there are no consequences for it. Explaining your feelings will probably get you mocked or ignored, am I right?
Honestly, sometimes I fantasize about actually just punching someone in the face to shock them out of the endless, endless wheel of this habit.
For me, it means closeness, seeing each other’s weak spots and making light of them, signaling that they don’t matter, we just like each other. It means finding the fun and absurdity in our humanity and chuckle at it together. Of course it only works in tandem with self deprecating humor and as a give and take on equal footing, not punching down.
This sounds very familiar to me, and I put it in a separate category of behavior than what the OP is talking about. If someone didn't laugh at your zinger, you wouldn't just KEEP AT IT while they sat there stone-faced, right?
posted by desuetude at 12:07 PM on December 27, 2018
Honestly, sometimes I fantasize about actually just punching someone in the face to shock them out of the endless, endless wheel of this habit.
For me, it means closeness, seeing each other’s weak spots and making light of them, signaling that they don’t matter, we just like each other. It means finding the fun and absurdity in our humanity and chuckle at it together. Of course it only works in tandem with self deprecating humor and as a give and take on equal footing, not punching down.
This sounds very familiar to me, and I put it in a separate category of behavior than what the OP is talking about. If someone didn't laugh at your zinger, you wouldn't just KEEP AT IT while they sat there stone-faced, right?
posted by desuetude at 12:07 PM on December 27, 2018
Best answer: Why are they like this? Because it saves them from having to consider how their actions hurt others, and trains them to hide their own hurt, because toxic masculinity doesn't allow men to exhibit symptoms of emotional pain. It is a rampant symptom and cause of asshole men.
How do you stop them doing it? You make your preferences known. If they don't stop, you let their jokes fall on stone ears. If they still don't stop, you're associating with people who are too poisonous to hang around with, and for the sake of your own mental, emotional and spiritual health, you should find better people to hang out with.
Once I thought it was better to be smart than to be kind. That's wrong, and changing my attitude about this changed my life.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:13 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
How do you stop them doing it? You make your preferences known. If they don't stop, you let their jokes fall on stone ears. If they still don't stop, you're associating with people who are too poisonous to hang around with, and for the sake of your own mental, emotional and spiritual health, you should find better people to hang out with.
Once I thought it was better to be smart than to be kind. That's wrong, and changing my attitude about this changed my life.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:13 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
I do this! It drives my boyfriend crazy! It's 90% of how my family and my friends talk to each other but once my boyfriend told me how hurtful it was to him, I cut out the meanest stuff immediately and started backing off with my family and friends, too. Sometimes I still slip up with something milder but still jerky, and I really appreciate it when he calls it out in the moment so I can understand exactly what he's talking about. If he's less than polite when he does it, all the better, because it's deserved and helps me keep in mind that I don't want to make people feel like that. I don't think it's a good sign if you have to cajole dudes into knocking this off.
posted by gaybobbie at 1:38 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by gaybobbie at 1:38 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: One thing I've had a little luck with is expressing how boring I find the constant one-upping. (Because I do - it drives me absolutely nuts. It's torture. The world is full of things to talk about, and you can't talk about any of them when it's this constant insult hockey.)
This is something where I might take aside the most sympathetic person and just say, "I don't feel like I ever get to talk to you about {books/movies/feelings/whatever you'd normally talk about] because our whole evening gets spent on this insult-comic-dog routine. I would really love to be able to talk to you more about [whatever], is there some way we can do that?"
posted by Frowner at 1:59 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
This is something where I might take aside the most sympathetic person and just say, "I don't feel like I ever get to talk to you about {books/movies/feelings/whatever you'd normally talk about] because our whole evening gets spent on this insult-comic-dog routine. I would really love to be able to talk to you more about [whatever], is there some way we can do that?"
posted by Frowner at 1:59 PM on December 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Best answer: It is microaggression, a small but actual form of bullying, manipulation, control. Even presented as a 'joke' it's put-down. Yes, many people engage in this, and it is annoying. Your post is full of concern and reason, and some people take advantage of that. Be reasonable, but when someone is a jerk to you, tell them to cut it out. Name it, and push back.
That's a dick(jerk) move.
That style of joking is irritating(boring, mindless, juvenile).
Cut that out.
If it's minor, ignore it. Literally, no response at all, okay, maybe a small eyeroll if you must. Have conversational distractions ready; I find this very useful; some people are esp. stupid when bored. Your brother criticizing you that way, was being an ass; next time he pulls that tell him he's an ass and that you expect better of him.
posted by theora55 at 2:32 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
That's a dick(jerk) move.
That style of joking is irritating(boring, mindless, juvenile).
Cut that out.
If it's minor, ignore it. Literally, no response at all, okay, maybe a small eyeroll if you must. Have conversational distractions ready; I find this very useful; some people are esp. stupid when bored. Your brother criticizing you that way, was being an ass; next time he pulls that tell him he's an ass and that you expect better of him.
posted by theora55 at 2:32 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
If I was reading this question, I would probably say, "Ugh, all these guys are jerks! Drop them!" But this happens even with men who I really think are in the top 5% of men out there - my ex, my brothers. I
If you want to spend the time training them, flinch and say 'That's sort of hostile?' If they come back with 'Can't you take a joke?' then I guess the answer is 'Not that kind' and maybe recalibrate whether they are in the top 5% of men because I don't think that's a loving or respectful way to joke around with someone, especially if you have said 'That is really not my kind of humor and it bothers me. Can you knock it off?' Being respectful of people's feelings is just....being respectful of people's feelings. They don't have to agree or get it, they just have to care it bothers you.
We don't do it in our house except every year or two by mistake, one of us will let fly with a joking 'fuck you' but it's immediately followed by ah sorry, that's not funny, because once you start letting fly with stuff like that it's hard to roll it back. It's like you've reset your household humor parameters.
I think maybe start experimenting with some small scale pushback of the 'That bugs me' variety.
(I recognize not everyone feels the way we do in our family, or interprets it the same way, and that's fine -- but rules for intimates are different than rules for outsiders.)
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:44 PM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
1. I'm a woman so my perspective is, you know, that of a woman. But I grew up with men who loved ribbing and in some contexts I engage. To me ribbing is fun when it avoids sensitive topics and when the relationship is very secure, secure enough that the "negative" statement is laughably false because I know I'm respected and loved.
Some men will stop when they know they are being hurtful. Some will get defensive and dig in their heels and insist it was just a joke, OMG why can't you take a joke???
2. I'd start with telling them that kind of humor doesn't work for you and you find it hurtful (this makes it about you and not about their intent). If they respect you and are fairly mature, that should do it. If that doesn't work, just respond to future ribs with silence and/or leaving the room. This has resulted it at least one person in my life dialing back the negative humor.
3. I find sarcasm satisfying. Flatly: "Oh. that was a joke" or "Wow, aren't you funny." Also (not sarcastic) "Huh" which to me says "I heard your comment and it doesn't merit a response." Sometimes I just give people a look like "Really?" YMMV.
It's possibly relevant that the male relative who was the worst about getting defensive was also completely blind to the fact that humor is sometimes used to bring up real frustrations (possibly related to some difficulties with social cues).
Fran to male relative: You missed my party, you asshole, just kidding!
Me, later: I think Fran didn't like it that you missed her party.
MR: Nah, she said she was just joking. We're cool.
posted by bunderful at 4:27 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Some men will stop when they know they are being hurtful. Some will get defensive and dig in their heels and insist it was just a joke, OMG why can't you take a joke???
2. I'd start with telling them that kind of humor doesn't work for you and you find it hurtful (this makes it about you and not about their intent). If they respect you and are fairly mature, that should do it. If that doesn't work, just respond to future ribs with silence and/or leaving the room. This has resulted it at least one person in my life dialing back the negative humor.
3. I find sarcasm satisfying. Flatly: "Oh. that was a joke" or "Wow, aren't you funny." Also (not sarcastic) "Huh" which to me says "I heard your comment and it doesn't merit a response." Sometimes I just give people a look like "Really?" YMMV.
It's possibly relevant that the male relative who was the worst about getting defensive was also completely blind to the fact that humor is sometimes used to bring up real frustrations (possibly related to some difficulties with social cues).
Fran to male relative: You missed my party, you asshole, just kidding!
Me, later: I think Fran didn't like it that you missed her party.
MR: Nah, she said she was just joking. We're cool.
posted by bunderful at 4:27 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I feel everyone already did a great job explaining why this happens. I want to give you a bit of hope - most guys may be lost causes, but with some, it's absolutely worth a try. My little brother, I love him dearly, and I think he can be genuinely funny; he can make me laugh like no-one else - but he absolutely showed signs of this as well when he was younger, and I really got him to mostly cut it out (as far as I can tell; at least when I'm around), basically by repeatedly telling him to cut it out. (Now, the fact that he can be genuinely funny was probably helpful. It will be a lot of harder with guys who just aren't, because if you take away the cheap shots, they've got nothing to fall back on.)
Some caveats:
1) I started really early, at the first signs of the teasing getting too mean-spirited, before the habit could become too ingrained. I have yet to replicate the success with someone older.
2) Of course his immediate reaction was to double down. It's a reflex; I think they really can't help it. You're telling them they're doing something wrong; they wanted to show of their wit, but you're telling them they're dull; they wanted to show off how well you two know each other, and you're telling them they don't actually know you that well. Of course they're going to be defensive. Brace yourself for the shitty response and prepare to repeat "Not funny", like a broken record.
3) You need to be in it for the long game. There are no magic words to make this go over more smoothly; the key is persistence. They will think you're overly sensitive and no fun, so what? You also think they're no fun, and yet you're not cutting them out of our life, you may still be quite fond of them in many regards. We tolerate quite a bit of stuff that annoys us about people we care about, so you can afford to be annoying. Annoy them with your sincerity and seriousness. You won't lose anyone worth caring about just for being "no fun". Embrace the "no fun" label (it's silly of course, you'll laugh plenty when someone's actually funny, but at this stage it's not worth the argument).
4) Since persistence is key, you need to be economical with your energies. Do push back consistently, but in the most breath-saving manner. You don't need to get into elaborate detail why any specific thing is actually hurtful. Never justify yourself. My go-to reaction is "Haha." / "You're so funny" (in my flatest voice) and a swift change of topic - something that tells them that I got it was supposed to be joke, I just don't think it's clever. They can argue about your sensitivy all they want, but in the cold light of day, a joke either lands or it doesn't, and while they'll probably never admit it on the spot, in their hearts of heart they'll know this just as well as you and I. You can't rules-laywer your way into being funny. And if being funny really is their goal, your lack of enthusiasm will gnaw at them in due time. (If it's all about the dominance angle for them, that of course goes out of the window, but even so, it's better to find that out sooner rather than later, because then you'll really have to cut them off).
It's not going to work for everyone, but it worked for me. My brother and I still have a bit of a thing where he sometimes tries to make me laugh about stuff I would usually scoff at (there's still, I guess, the thrill of getting away with things only he as my brother could get away with), but he knows that he can't rely on lazy snark as a default; he has to get creative, he has to catch me by surprise. And he can cut it out completely, if need be, because his general brand of humour is more goofy/absurd, and I don't have any issue with that. We actually talk a lot about stuff like "not punching down" and things that may seem fairly innocuous, but can actually really hit a sore spot with some people and he frequently asks me for my perspective on these things. He actually cares a lot about what other people think and he doesn't want to accidently hit an undeserving target, just out thoughtlessness. (But again, my brother actually is a genuinely funny person, who really just wants to make people laugh and we actually have a fairly close relationship, where we can handle non-flattering feedback from each other, because we both proven often enough that we'll have each other's back when the chips are down. Many people use "affectionate teasing" to gloss over the fact that none of this is actually the case, and then there's really not much you can do).
Other guys I'm less close too generally just decide not to bother with me, so that's also great.
posted by sohalt at 4:34 PM on December 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Some caveats:
1) I started really early, at the first signs of the teasing getting too mean-spirited, before the habit could become too ingrained. I have yet to replicate the success with someone older.
2) Of course his immediate reaction was to double down. It's a reflex; I think they really can't help it. You're telling them they're doing something wrong; they wanted to show of their wit, but you're telling them they're dull; they wanted to show off how well you two know each other, and you're telling them they don't actually know you that well. Of course they're going to be defensive. Brace yourself for the shitty response and prepare to repeat "Not funny", like a broken record.
3) You need to be in it for the long game. There are no magic words to make this go over more smoothly; the key is persistence. They will think you're overly sensitive and no fun, so what? You also think they're no fun, and yet you're not cutting them out of our life, you may still be quite fond of them in many regards. We tolerate quite a bit of stuff that annoys us about people we care about, so you can afford to be annoying. Annoy them with your sincerity and seriousness. You won't lose anyone worth caring about just for being "no fun". Embrace the "no fun" label (it's silly of course, you'll laugh plenty when someone's actually funny, but at this stage it's not worth the argument).
4) Since persistence is key, you need to be economical with your energies. Do push back consistently, but in the most breath-saving manner. You don't need to get into elaborate detail why any specific thing is actually hurtful. Never justify yourself. My go-to reaction is "Haha." / "You're so funny" (in my flatest voice) and a swift change of topic - something that tells them that I got it was supposed to be joke, I just don't think it's clever. They can argue about your sensitivy all they want, but in the cold light of day, a joke either lands or it doesn't, and while they'll probably never admit it on the spot, in their hearts of heart they'll know this just as well as you and I. You can't rules-laywer your way into being funny. And if being funny really is their goal, your lack of enthusiasm will gnaw at them in due time. (If it's all about the dominance angle for them, that of course goes out of the window, but even so, it's better to find that out sooner rather than later, because then you'll really have to cut them off).
It's not going to work for everyone, but it worked for me. My brother and I still have a bit of a thing where he sometimes tries to make me laugh about stuff I would usually scoff at (there's still, I guess, the thrill of getting away with things only he as my brother could get away with), but he knows that he can't rely on lazy snark as a default; he has to get creative, he has to catch me by surprise. And he can cut it out completely, if need be, because his general brand of humour is more goofy/absurd, and I don't have any issue with that. We actually talk a lot about stuff like "not punching down" and things that may seem fairly innocuous, but can actually really hit a sore spot with some people and he frequently asks me for my perspective on these things. He actually cares a lot about what other people think and he doesn't want to accidently hit an undeserving target, just out thoughtlessness. (But again, my brother actually is a genuinely funny person, who really just wants to make people laugh and we actually have a fairly close relationship, where we can handle non-flattering feedback from each other, because we both proven often enough that we'll have each other's back when the chips are down. Many people use "affectionate teasing" to gloss over the fact that none of this is actually the case, and then there's really not much you can do).
Other guys I'm less close too generally just decide not to bother with me, so that's also great.
posted by sohalt at 4:34 PM on December 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm still digesting all these responses, so thank you! I feel like I have received a lot of helpful answers on how to deal with my brothers, and also on how to deal with your average jerk on the street. And, in fact, how to deal with teasing humor from guys who I am trying to date.
I think the most complex and difficult situation to respond to is when a fella I'm interested in dating isn't teasing or insulting me, but still relying on a lot of negativity for his humor. As @InTheYear2017 described, using negativity as a shield against vulnerability. Any ideas on a gentle way to redirect, or to express that it's not working for me without it feeling like an attack?
(I kinda hate that I'm having to work so hard at helping men communicate and grow up, but it feels like this is just the world I live in.)
posted by ohsnapdragon at 5:03 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think the most complex and difficult situation to respond to is when a fella I'm interested in dating isn't teasing or insulting me, but still relying on a lot of negativity for his humor. As @InTheYear2017 described, using negativity as a shield against vulnerability. Any ideas on a gentle way to redirect, or to express that it's not working for me without it feeling like an attack?
(I kinda hate that I'm having to work so hard at helping men communicate and grow up, but it feels like this is just the world I live in.)
posted by ohsnapdragon at 5:03 PM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: A lot of men who have little else to go on socially will self-identify as “funny” to excuse their bullying. They play this out by ridiculing/boring-with-negativity the people around them, because it makes them feel “alpha” to pick on women and anyone else who’s more self-aware. (Female “dudes” can be this way as well — if she calls herself “one of the guys” or brags about only having male friends because women are so much drama, chances are she engages in the same kind of “humour.”) It’s definitely a toxic-masculinity thing, born of insecurity — about looks, achievement, or whatever else the perpetrator envies in better-adjusted people. “I’m not self-actualized in those ways, so I must be the loveable screwup deadpan sneaker!”
I have experience with this, because I used to moonlight in live comedy (strictly small time, but for over a decade, and I made enough money to report it on my taxes). I can tell you these guys are a dying breed in that field; in recent years, they were often the first ones cut at a round of auditions, because it was hacky and boring and invariably accompanied by a lack of social skills.
Now that I’m retired from the funny business, I’m realizing my best weapon against it in “civilian life” is just NOT to provide the validation they seek (on-command laughter, etc.). In the (non-comedy) workplace, I’ll sometimes just display my unvarnished exhaustion/lack of reaction — and I will double down when I get the inevitable “OH COME ON, that was HILAAAAAARIOUS!” follow-up. If it’s someone close and the biting remark is obviously rooted in jealousy, I might call that out, while grinning devilishly.
On Facebook, sometimes a nonplussed GIF is the most satisfying response; other times, quietly deleting the comment is more satisfying. Often, the best signal is paying gobs of attention to other comments and letting the wannabe-wiseguy stew in the shadows.
posted by armeowda at 5:07 PM on December 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
I have experience with this, because I used to moonlight in live comedy (strictly small time, but for over a decade, and I made enough money to report it on my taxes). I can tell you these guys are a dying breed in that field; in recent years, they were often the first ones cut at a round of auditions, because it was hacky and boring and invariably accompanied by a lack of social skills.
Now that I’m retired from the funny business, I’m realizing my best weapon against it in “civilian life” is just NOT to provide the validation they seek (on-command laughter, etc.). In the (non-comedy) workplace, I’ll sometimes just display my unvarnished exhaustion/lack of reaction — and I will double down when I get the inevitable “OH COME ON, that was HILAAAAAARIOUS!” follow-up. If it’s someone close and the biting remark is obviously rooted in jealousy, I might call that out, while grinning devilishly.
On Facebook, sometimes a nonplussed GIF is the most satisfying response; other times, quietly deleting the comment is more satisfying. Often, the best signal is paying gobs of attention to other comments and letting the wannabe-wiseguy stew in the shadows.
posted by armeowda at 5:07 PM on December 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
1. I'm a married man. I would say that I have the type of sense of humor you are describing. Why? I dont know. Honestly I think its funny to not take things seriously. Sarcasm is a way of life. That said I believe I'm actually really good at letting others subtly in on the joke in a way that hopefully makes it obvious that I do not wish to hurt anyone. My wife is even more sarcastic in her humor then me. So we get along quite well. Please know I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. But I do think it's important for you to realize the qualities you dislike in men are often liked by others. It doesn't make it right or wrong. You have every right to choose the type of men you like or dislike. But again realize that some don't view this type of man as bad.
2..Just be honest...say "hey I found what you just said offense or it makes me uncomfortable. " if someone were to say that I would immediately refrain from my sarcastic jokes.
3. Just disengage and physically move on. They'll get it.
posted by ljs30 at 6:12 PM on December 27, 2018
2..Just be honest...say "hey I found what you just said offense or it makes me uncomfortable. " if someone were to say that I would immediately refrain from my sarcastic jokes.
3. Just disengage and physically move on. They'll get it.
posted by ljs30 at 6:12 PM on December 27, 2018
Best answer: Everyone has different levels of tolerance for "jokes" of this sort, but as several people have pointed out, to be a "joke" it needs a punchline, or it's not a joke. It's verbal aggression. I can't recommend highly enough that you read "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" by Suzette Elgin. It clears up many of the things that people say to you, and the aggression underneath them. More importantly, she gives you tools to use in those situations.
That said, I'm here to tell you that, brothers or not, saying "Shut the fuck up" IS NOT OKAY. IT IS RUDE AND IT IS UNACCEPTABLE. People do not say that as a joke. In my world, people who say that do not get to continue our conversation. If nothing else, I urge you to at least draw the line there.
Your overarching question doesn't seem answerable. Honestly, I hear a lot less of this kind of irritating/mean comments than you do, but I do notice how ugly so much of what is presented as "humor" in entertainment actually is.
Thanks for an interesting question.
posted by kestralwing at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
That said, I'm here to tell you that, brothers or not, saying "Shut the fuck up" IS NOT OKAY. IT IS RUDE AND IT IS UNACCEPTABLE. People do not say that as a joke. In my world, people who say that do not get to continue our conversation. If nothing else, I urge you to at least draw the line there.
Your overarching question doesn't seem answerable. Honestly, I hear a lot less of this kind of irritating/mean comments than you do, but I do notice how ugly so much of what is presented as "humor" in entertainment actually is.
Thanks for an interesting question.
posted by kestralwing at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think there is a definite punching up/down/across component to this type of humour. As a cis gay male, there are people in my life with whom I love a mutual back and forth dynamic of mild insults that all parties can laugh and joke about, and others (my grandmother, younger cousins, certain coworkers etc) with whom I would never dream about interacting with in that manner. Consequently, while I might laugh my head off about a good 'burn' my buddy got me with, I might go straight to HR if my boss, for example, were to say the exact same thing to me.
All of that said, the acceptability of this kind of joking really is context-specific, and I'd say any person who fails to see and respect the boundary is someone who is mean at best,, but probably more likely someone who has never had to face actual consequences for treating other people in as poor of a manner as they can get away with. My sister-in-law is like this toward her brother (my husband), and while I do believe it is more of a "male thing," I feel like at the end of the day, this is just another situation where the mantra "people are jerks" is applicable. Treat them accordingly.
posted by wats at 7:54 PM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
All of that said, the acceptability of this kind of joking really is context-specific, and I'd say any person who fails to see and respect the boundary is someone who is mean at best,, but probably more likely someone who has never had to face actual consequences for treating other people in as poor of a manner as they can get away with. My sister-in-law is like this toward her brother (my husband), and while I do believe it is more of a "male thing," I feel like at the end of the day, this is just another situation where the mantra "people are jerks" is applicable. Treat them accordingly.
posted by wats at 7:54 PM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Re: navigating this in dating — You could try saying “hey, I don’t really enjoy being teased in that way. It doesn’t feel good for me” in a matter of fact way. Not accusatory but not apologetic, and then let him respond. Whether he says “oh shoot okay! I understand, thanks for telling me,” or “LOL you are so uptight!” you will get some good, actionable information.
I do think lots of men are acting out this gendered script without realizing it, as others have said. But I also think you may be signing up for a Sisyphean task if he’s not willing to do the work himself after you point it out.
posted by elephantsvanish at 8:58 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do think lots of men are acting out this gendered script without realizing it, as others have said. But I also think you may be signing up for a Sisyphean task if he’s not willing to do the work himself after you point it out.
posted by elephantsvanish at 8:58 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
1. Why do men do this? If you're a man who does this, what are you thinking? If you're a man who used to do this and stopped, what changed your perspective? If you're a woman married to a man who doesn't do this, how did you find him? ; )
Speaking as a Man, its totally the way that working class men are socialised. It’s not personal and not meant to be harassing, in fact it’s a sign of inclusion and respect, oddly. Middle class and posher men are socialised differently, but that probably has other problems.
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
“Hmm, very funny” is probably the best way to deflect it. The trouble is that in rejecting the playful aspect of it you’re likely to come across as a bit of prig, which is only likely to encourage it further - rise above is the answer.
You could join in and tease back, but asking the question probably means you’re not a “banter” sort of person.
3. What are some good responses when men I DON'T care about act like this? When I just want to end the conversation, and preferably not give them an opening to tell me how sensitive and irrational I am.
Join in with a good quip of your own, but it’s a skill - or otherwise dead pan it - “I don’t know what you want me to say to that” but honestly , policing the behaviour of strangers? Sounds a recipe for disaster to me. I’d mention you don’t like being teased if you really must, but it’s one of those things I’d just chalk up to be honest. Men are from Mars etc etc
posted by Middlemarch at 10:00 PM on December 27, 2018
Speaking as a Man, its totally the way that working class men are socialised. It’s not personal and not meant to be harassing, in fact it’s a sign of inclusion and respect, oddly. Middle class and posher men are socialised differently, but that probably has other problems.
2. What are some good responses when men I care about make jokes like this? I'd like to get through to them rather than punish them.
“Hmm, very funny” is probably the best way to deflect it. The trouble is that in rejecting the playful aspect of it you’re likely to come across as a bit of prig, which is only likely to encourage it further - rise above is the answer.
You could join in and tease back, but asking the question probably means you’re not a “banter” sort of person.
3. What are some good responses when men I DON'T care about act like this? When I just want to end the conversation, and preferably not give them an opening to tell me how sensitive and irrational I am.
Join in with a good quip of your own, but it’s a skill - or otherwise dead pan it - “I don’t know what you want me to say to that” but honestly , policing the behaviour of strangers? Sounds a recipe for disaster to me. I’d mention you don’t like being teased if you really must, but it’s one of those things I’d just chalk up to be honest. Men are from Mars etc etc
posted by Middlemarch at 10:00 PM on December 27, 2018
Best answer: Is it possible you were/are so tolerant of your ex’s behavior and the behavior of the guy you are seeing now because this style of teasing was so prevelant in your household growing up? Which is to say, maybe it’s not a coincidence that you know a lot of men who do this.
In any case, in casual dating, I think I’d talk a bit more to the guy about it, but it occurrs to me that I ended something with a guy who did exactly this. I had only seen him a few times, but it seemed like there was potential. Then he told me about how, when his teenage son was playing on the Xbox with a headset with his friends, he (the dad) would make jokes like “Time to put your Taylor Swift jammies on.” And he said his younger daughter would join in, too. The point was to embarrass the kid I. Front of his friends. It sounded really mean to me, and not at all funny. We then had a conversation about toxic masculinity and how men enforce certain behaviors and attitudes in others.
He was trying to prove he wasn’t sexist and ended up making a homophobic “joke.” I didn’t laugh and I did call him out, and he said he was making a joke, but it didn’t sit right with me. A day or two later I ended it with him. I realized I didn’t want an adult man behaving that way around my kids. I didn’t want them to think that behavior was okay.
I also dated a guy who would sometimes using teasing as indirect criticism. My honest reaction, one that worked but wasn’t planned or strategic, was an absolute look of horror on my face when it was directed at me. I found it hurtful and showed that. I think my reaction shocked him a bit into realizing how messed up it was that he was teasing me so meanly. In his case, this teasing was often a projection of his own insecurities. I suspect that happens a lot.
And I’m remembering a third guy who used to tease me about something I really liked. It was annoying. I said to him, “If you like me, teasing me about X isn’t a way to show it.” I didn’t see him for long but ended up blocking him because he kept trying to get me to engage with him through mild insults. It got old, fast.
I think it’s totally fine to say to the guy you’re dating, “Hey, you make a lot of jokes about my roommate. What’s up with that?” He might not realize he’s doing it. Maybe he’s uncomfortable with the roommate being there? Maybe he’s worried you all will make noise she will hear?
In any case, I guess if someone said I was being too sensitive or not taking a joke, I’d just own it. “Yes, I am pretty sensitive, to mean-spirited teasing.” “Nope, I can’t take a joke, when it’s mean and not funny.”
But, yeah, there are plenty of guys who don’t do this. I find it a huge turn off when men behave like this, so I move on pretty quickly if I see this behavior, especially if it’s directed at me.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:38 PM on December 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
In any case, in casual dating, I think I’d talk a bit more to the guy about it, but it occurrs to me that I ended something with a guy who did exactly this. I had only seen him a few times, but it seemed like there was potential. Then he told me about how, when his teenage son was playing on the Xbox with a headset with his friends, he (the dad) would make jokes like “Time to put your Taylor Swift jammies on.” And he said his younger daughter would join in, too. The point was to embarrass the kid I. Front of his friends. It sounded really mean to me, and not at all funny. We then had a conversation about toxic masculinity and how men enforce certain behaviors and attitudes in others.
He was trying to prove he wasn’t sexist and ended up making a homophobic “joke.” I didn’t laugh and I did call him out, and he said he was making a joke, but it didn’t sit right with me. A day or two later I ended it with him. I realized I didn’t want an adult man behaving that way around my kids. I didn’t want them to think that behavior was okay.
I also dated a guy who would sometimes using teasing as indirect criticism. My honest reaction, one that worked but wasn’t planned or strategic, was an absolute look of horror on my face when it was directed at me. I found it hurtful and showed that. I think my reaction shocked him a bit into realizing how messed up it was that he was teasing me so meanly. In his case, this teasing was often a projection of his own insecurities. I suspect that happens a lot.
And I’m remembering a third guy who used to tease me about something I really liked. It was annoying. I said to him, “If you like me, teasing me about X isn’t a way to show it.” I didn’t see him for long but ended up blocking him because he kept trying to get me to engage with him through mild insults. It got old, fast.
I think it’s totally fine to say to the guy you’re dating, “Hey, you make a lot of jokes about my roommate. What’s up with that?” He might not realize he’s doing it. Maybe he’s uncomfortable with the roommate being there? Maybe he’s worried you all will make noise she will hear?
In any case, I guess if someone said I was being too sensitive or not taking a joke, I’d just own it. “Yes, I am pretty sensitive, to mean-spirited teasing.” “Nope, I can’t take a joke, when it’s mean and not funny.”
But, yeah, there are plenty of guys who don’t do this. I find it a huge turn off when men behave like this, so I move on pretty quickly if I see this behavior, especially if it’s directed at me.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:38 PM on December 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
I find it helps to break down their momentum if you just respond with mildly-amused curiosity. People who joke-by-tearing-down depend a bit on the shock value of the exchange. If you slow them down and ask them to clarify themselves - even with a simple, “Oh, did you think that was funny because x, y, z?” spoken with an inquisitive smile on your face, they won’t be rewarded with your discomfiture and you will often cause them to back off/skulk away with some discomfiture of their own.
posted by Libelula y colibri at 1:08 AM on December 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Libelula y colibri at 1:08 AM on December 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: But this happens even with men who I really think are in the top 5% of men out there - my ex, my brothers.
Also, can we look at this a bit? This is a man who teased you mercilessly, it sounds like, and you still don’t know if he was joking. You’re saying you love him dearly and he’s in the top 5% of men. You also said you felt crazy around him because of his behavior.
This is not a guy in the top 5% of men. People who are loving partners are not people who leave you in a state of feeling confused about their feelings or intentions. Honestly, the behavior sounds borderline abusive.
Yes, there might be a throwaway comment or negative joke or two from truly loving men who are good partners. But your description of your ex’s behaviors sounds more like gaslighting.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:25 AM on December 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
Also, can we look at this a bit? This is a man who teased you mercilessly, it sounds like, and you still don’t know if he was joking. You’re saying you love him dearly and he’s in the top 5% of men. You also said you felt crazy around him because of his behavior.
This is not a guy in the top 5% of men. People who are loving partners are not people who leave you in a state of feeling confused about their feelings or intentions. Honestly, the behavior sounds borderline abusive.
Yes, there might be a throwaway comment or negative joke or two from truly loving men who are good partners. But your description of your ex’s behaviors sounds more like gaslighting.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:25 AM on December 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
For 2, communicating how you feel to someone you care about, something to consider is avoiding saying "that's not funny," because, as cheap, demeaning, or boring as it sounds to you, it probably is legitimately funny to many people he interacts with. Telling him flat out it's not funny will feel like gaslighting to him, because of all the evidence he's encountered his entire life that it is funny (to many people). If it truly is someone with whom you share mutual respect, telling him it's not funny to you (and is in fact hurtful), while allowing that it is funny to others, should be a much quicker and less cognitively dissonant pathway to getting him to modify his behavior for you.
posted by array at 4:19 AM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by array at 4:19 AM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Hey don't be so offended I don't find your joke funny - are you triggered?" - my ungenerous response
posted by Dressed to Kill at 7:45 AM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 7:45 AM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sarcasm is a way of life
It might be for some people, but on my dating profile under DISLIKES I specifically put "Sarcasm" to weed out the (eye roll) "funny" men. Sarcasm is lazy lazy humor and it's boring to me. So nipping it in the bud before I even match with a person is key. ;)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
It might be for some people, but on my dating profile under DISLIKES I specifically put "Sarcasm" to weed out the (eye roll) "funny" men. Sarcasm is lazy lazy humor and it's boring to me. So nipping it in the bud before I even match with a person is key. ;)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I am a woman and in college for awhile I tried to be "just one of the guys" and adopted this mode of humor. One of the guys I was close friends with was like this CONSTANTLY and for me to respond the same way felt like a defense mechanism, like if I could dish it back to him then it wouldn't be hurtful to me. It worked a little.
But then I started dating a guy who wasn't like that at all, and one day I made some negative-humor "joke" at him and he looked at me seriously and said "I don't like it when you're sarcastic and mean like that." And I knew exactly what he meant, and I realized I didn't like it either and I didn't want to go through life that way. And I stopped. It took some effort.
(I ended up marrying that dude and we are still together 12 years later and we have our own snarky humor but it's mutual between us. And every once in awhile one of us will cross a line into mean-humor territory, and the other one will say "don't make fun of me!" and it's all good.)
posted by beandip at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
But then I started dating a guy who wasn't like that at all, and one day I made some negative-humor "joke" at him and he looked at me seriously and said "I don't like it when you're sarcastic and mean like that." And I knew exactly what he meant, and I realized I didn't like it either and I didn't want to go through life that way. And I stopped. It took some effort.
(I ended up marrying that dude and we are still together 12 years later and we have our own snarky humor but it's mutual between us. And every once in awhile one of us will cross a line into mean-humor territory, and the other one will say "don't make fun of me!" and it's all good.)
posted by beandip at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
array: Telling him flat out it's not funny will feel like gaslighting to him, because of all the evidence he's encountered his entire life that it is funny (to many people).
I wouldn't use the word "gaslighting" here, because humor is subjective and you can't accrue evidence for or against the funniness of something, but this is still a good point precisely because humor is subjective.
People often insist that actual-meanness and actual-funniness are always exclusive properties, but that's like saying that nothing that tastes good could ever be unhealthy and/or poisonous. (A lot of people, the I'm-a-renegade-asshole-against-a-soft-PC-world crowd, insist on the similarly-wrong inverse, that "real" humor necessarily offends and derides just like all good-tasting food is bad for you.) Either way, there's this weird hold that things like humor, status, and beauty have on us that make us reluctant to reject them and their importance even as we pay lip service to the idea of rejecting superficiality.
I really like Alexandra Erin's analysis of The Rules of Comedy, a message she also raises often on her Twitter feed.
I wouldn't use the word "gaslighting" here, because humor is subjective and you can't accrue evidence for or against the funniness of something, but this is still a good point precisely because humor is subjective.
People often insist that actual-meanness and actual-funniness are always exclusive properties, but that's like saying that nothing that tastes good could ever be unhealthy and/or poisonous. (A lot of people, the I'm-a-renegade-asshole-against-a-soft-PC-world crowd, insist on the similarly-wrong inverse, that "real" humor necessarily offends and derides just like all good-tasting food is bad for you.) Either way, there's this weird hold that things like humor, status, and beauty have on us that make us reluctant to reject them and their importance even as we pay lip service to the idea of rejecting superficiality.
I really like Alexandra Erin's analysis of The Rules of Comedy, a message she also raises often on her Twitter feed.
I’ve never been to dental school, but I’m pretty sure there’s not a required course requiring not taking the dental tools and jamming them in patient’s ears. And yes, there is no such thing as a rule of comedy that requires you to be a fundamentally decent human being while you’re doing it, but comedy is not special. We don’t need special rules of decency that only apply when comedy is done because the normal rules are not in abeyance.posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:53 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: They are highly ashamed of themselves and any and all of their perceived weaknesses, so they take them out on the “weakest” person in the room, as a scapegoat. You’re a woman (and so is your roommate), therefore not only are you “weaker” but you supposedly have less to lose by being put down incessantly.
Next time they do this you can say “why are you so terrified of weakness?” or something similarly fuck-your-whiny-little-attitude, or you can say, “what the fuck? Why are you being so mean/rude/bizarre?” But overall they have to want to change.
tl;dr, they are emotionally illiterate and filled with shame.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:30 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Next time they do this you can say “why are you so terrified of weakness?” or something similarly fuck-your-whiny-little-attitude, or you can say, “what the fuck? Why are you being so mean/rude/bizarre?” But overall they have to want to change.
tl;dr, they are emotionally illiterate and filled with shame.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:30 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Any ideas on a gentle way to redirect, or to express that it's not working for me without it feeling like an attack?
We're all trained to make laughing sounds when somebody says something joke-like whether we're genuinely amused or not. So don't laugh. It's pretty conspicuous when you're on a date and you're trying to be funny and your date isn't even doing the polite laughter thing. If you're lucky he'll just start trying a different approach, but if the lack of positive feedback trips him up his reaction should be fairly instructive as far as deciding whether it's worth it to try to explain how he might better appeal to your particular sense of humor.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:55 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
We're all trained to make laughing sounds when somebody says something joke-like whether we're genuinely amused or not. So don't laugh. It's pretty conspicuous when you're on a date and you're trying to be funny and your date isn't even doing the polite laughter thing. If you're lucky he'll just start trying a different approach, but if the lack of positive feedback trips him up his reaction should be fairly instructive as far as deciding whether it's worth it to try to explain how he might better appeal to your particular sense of humor.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:55 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: there's lots of great responses already, but I still wanna share mine: "too mean!" -- I think the Liz Lemon character on 30 Rock says this and her tone is perfect (I think it's in the first or second season, I actually looked for a clip or transcript and couldn't immediately put my hands on it). It may seem like a subtle difference, but I think it's great that it implicitly gets the idea across that you're not opposed to ALL aggressive humor, but their attempts are miscalculated.
I also love the upthread suggestions for comedians who take a different tack, like Mulaney. Parks and Rec is largely non-aggressive, except for April and the way the rest of the cast treats the Jerry/Gary character. These are ways to show that you have a sense of humor, just a *different* sense of humor from them. Good luck!
posted by leemleem at 12:23 PM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I also love the upthread suggestions for comedians who take a different tack, like Mulaney. Parks and Rec is largely non-aggressive, except for April and the way the rest of the cast treats the Jerry/Gary character. These are ways to show that you have a sense of humor, just a *different* sense of humor from them. Good luck!
posted by leemleem at 12:23 PM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm a man and the behavior you are describing is all too prevalent and completely not OK. Kudos to you for knowing it's OK to say that this kind of thing is not OK.
FWIW, I am a walking repository of short jokes that have somehow found a file folder in my brain that I usually access in close company (read: my family of choice) around the holidays. Years ago after reading about how British humor is strong on self-depreciation, I decided that it's one of the few things they do better than we former rebel colonists. Royal weddings and men's clothing being the other two that come to mind.
In any case, I have tried to ensure that all the jokes that go in my mental folder skew to the self-depreciating, or at most the cleverly innocuous. The more creative ones are riffs on things other people say:
Group director: "Let me get out of your hair so you guys can get your work done"
Me (bald as an eagle): "What hair?"
So, maybe you can encourage the men in your circles of influence in such directions?
2016's winning Xmas joke: How do you think the unthinkable? With an itheberg.
2017's: What's brown and rhymes with Snoop? Dr. Dre.
2018's: It's of course a well known fact that the people of Saudi Arabia do not care for The Flinstones...but the people of Abu Dhabi do.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
FWIW, I am a walking repository of short jokes that have somehow found a file folder in my brain that I usually access in close company (read: my family of choice) around the holidays. Years ago after reading about how British humor is strong on self-depreciation, I decided that it's one of the few things they do better than we former rebel colonists. Royal weddings and men's clothing being the other two that come to mind.
In any case, I have tried to ensure that all the jokes that go in my mental folder skew to the self-depreciating, or at most the cleverly innocuous. The more creative ones are riffs on things other people say:
Group director: "Let me get out of your hair so you guys can get your work done"
Me (bald as an eagle): "What hair?"
So, maybe you can encourage the men in your circles of influence in such directions?
2016's winning Xmas joke: How do you think the unthinkable? With an itheberg.
2017's: What's brown and rhymes with Snoop? Dr. Dre.
2018's: It's of course a well known fact that the people of Saudi Arabia do not care for The Flinstones...but the people of Abu Dhabi do.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Reading your update, I have to admit that it is a bit trickier in a dating context and my last answer didn't account for that. I mean, I still believe that ultimately nobody worth caring about will write you off for not being into teasing and that putting your foot down on that matter is always a win-win strategy (either motivating a change in behavior or ridding you off interpersonal dead-weight before you get too invested). But I also get why you'd want to do it in a manner that's not too discouraging to a potential love interest.
I don't have to mince words when I tell my brother he's being a bore, because he knows I'll always love him anyway, but when you've just started dating someone, you might not quite have that level of trust yet. One might argue that your beau is apparently seeing that differently, since he acts as if there's no chance you'd take his jokes the wrong way. If he's so convinced you should be sure enough of his affections to not read into the teasing, it would be logical to assume that he should be equally sure of yours not to mistake "I'm not into teasing" for "I'm not into you."
But guys are just people, and people usually aren't terribly logical. So many commenters here have given you tipps how to be careful about presenting your dislike of teasing as a personal quirk of yours, as to minimize the risk that he will take it as a judgement of his character. I agree, that's worth a try. Some people out there really are into that kind of thing after all, it's just so happens that you aren't one of them. No harm no foul.
Again, anyone worth your time will be able to handle that, without need for further debate. You're allowed to have your preferences. You've indicated a boundary, and any decent guy will step back. But this is a courtship situation, so you'll want him to approach again, just from a different angle, and that's the tricky part, where I don't really have any surefire solution either.
I'm a pretty verbal person and I like to think I can handle myself in all kinds of settings - inane chatter, spirited debate, exchange of deep dark secrets, all sorts of intellectual wankery, you name it - but I won't do banter. Affectionate teasing rarely works for me, and I feel a downright physical revulsion at the thought of acting coy. My romantic success is neglible, so make of that what you will. (To be fair, there's a host of potential reasons for that).
A lot of early rapport building is about mirroring. Many people do that more or less subconsciously when they like someone - it could be matching the other person's posture, or cadence, or suddenly picking up certain turns of phrase the other person likes to use. It's often a fairly organical result of paying above average amounts of attention to each other, and when it doesn't happen, people - again, more or less subconsciously - sometimes read it as a lack of chemistry. With the affectionate teasing, your beau is throwing you a ball, a chance to mirror him. The charitable reading is that he expects you to throw it back, tease him in return. You don't want to match his tone, because it's a game you don't enjoy. Fair enough. But now the ball's in your court.
People like to hold onto scripts in tricky interpersonal situations, and banter seems to be an integral part of the script for many, when it comes to courtship, possibly the trickiest interpersonal situation of all. So when you really want to keep things going, don't just shoot that script down, try to offer one you prefer.
Whether that has any chance in hell of working however depends pretty heavily on what your guy's motivation for the teasing.
- Teasing as a power move. Maybe he's read too many pick-up-artist manuals and is trying to neg you. The idea is that women are so used to generic compliments, he needs to insult you to stand out, and if he succeeds in making you feel insecure, there's the bonus benefit of making you dependant on his validation. You can't work with that.
- Teasing as a genuine, but maybe accidental expression of heart-felt, but maybe subconscious ambivalence. Falling in love with somebody can be pretty scary, because of the vulnerability it entails. Guys who lack self-awareness may use faux-hostile banter as a coping mechansim, to prevent things from getting too real too quickly. It's immaturity; people can and sometimes even do grow out it. You can work with that (by modelling courageous vulnerability yourself), but do take a hard look on whether it's worth the effort. It may require more patience than you can muster, and often it's going to be the girlfriend after you who really reaps the rewards.
- Teasing as his comfort zone, a childhood habit, a part of a familiar script. And I do actually think the script serves a relatable function in the context of banter - even if you do need to make yourself vulnerable at some point to haven an actual relationship, it's okay to not want to make yourself too vulnerable right out of the gate. I don't often feel like sharing deep secrets on a first date either and I actually get suspicious if someone brings out the big guns, conversation-wise, too quickly. I get the desire to keep things lightheared at first, to save more substantial revelations for later occasions. My preferred method for testing the waters is bog-standard small talk, but some people might worry that would bore a love interest; they might think a dating situation requires sparkling wit and creativity (which the banter, in my exerpience, rarely displays, but I can usually acknowledge that the intention was there).
I guess one way to cut down on the banter might talking up the alternatives, ("I know some people have a problem with small talk but I really like it; I don't always feel like talking about heavy stuff, I think it's sometimes nice to just chat a bit, without the need to be terribly clever"), excessively praise the slightest hint of any behaviour you actually want to see instead of the teasing ("I think it's so great how we can just comfortably sit in silence"). If he wants to be playful, show him ways to be playful that don't rely on teasing. ("Would you rather fight 20 duck-sized horses or 1 horse-sized duck?" "If you were a super-villain, what would be your plan for world domination?"). There are lots of ways to be silly together that don't involve faux-hostility. Sure, it's all very chilidsh, but I really feel any guy who's into teasing shouldn't have any issue with that. That's what I meant by offering alternative scripts. Set the tone yourself, give him an opportunity to mirror you.
posted by sohalt at 12:05 PM on December 29, 2018
I don't have to mince words when I tell my brother he's being a bore, because he knows I'll always love him anyway, but when you've just started dating someone, you might not quite have that level of trust yet. One might argue that your beau is apparently seeing that differently, since he acts as if there's no chance you'd take his jokes the wrong way. If he's so convinced you should be sure enough of his affections to not read into the teasing, it would be logical to assume that he should be equally sure of yours not to mistake "I'm not into teasing" for "I'm not into you."
But guys are just people, and people usually aren't terribly logical. So many commenters here have given you tipps how to be careful about presenting your dislike of teasing as a personal quirk of yours, as to minimize the risk that he will take it as a judgement of his character. I agree, that's worth a try. Some people out there really are into that kind of thing after all, it's just so happens that you aren't one of them. No harm no foul.
Again, anyone worth your time will be able to handle that, without need for further debate. You're allowed to have your preferences. You've indicated a boundary, and any decent guy will step back. But this is a courtship situation, so you'll want him to approach again, just from a different angle, and that's the tricky part, where I don't really have any surefire solution either.
I'm a pretty verbal person and I like to think I can handle myself in all kinds of settings - inane chatter, spirited debate, exchange of deep dark secrets, all sorts of intellectual wankery, you name it - but I won't do banter. Affectionate teasing rarely works for me, and I feel a downright physical revulsion at the thought of acting coy. My romantic success is neglible, so make of that what you will. (To be fair, there's a host of potential reasons for that).
A lot of early rapport building is about mirroring. Many people do that more or less subconsciously when they like someone - it could be matching the other person's posture, or cadence, or suddenly picking up certain turns of phrase the other person likes to use. It's often a fairly organical result of paying above average amounts of attention to each other, and when it doesn't happen, people - again, more or less subconsciously - sometimes read it as a lack of chemistry. With the affectionate teasing, your beau is throwing you a ball, a chance to mirror him. The charitable reading is that he expects you to throw it back, tease him in return. You don't want to match his tone, because it's a game you don't enjoy. Fair enough. But now the ball's in your court.
People like to hold onto scripts in tricky interpersonal situations, and banter seems to be an integral part of the script for many, when it comes to courtship, possibly the trickiest interpersonal situation of all. So when you really want to keep things going, don't just shoot that script down, try to offer one you prefer.
Whether that has any chance in hell of working however depends pretty heavily on what your guy's motivation for the teasing.
- Teasing as a power move. Maybe he's read too many pick-up-artist manuals and is trying to neg you. The idea is that women are so used to generic compliments, he needs to insult you to stand out, and if he succeeds in making you feel insecure, there's the bonus benefit of making you dependant on his validation. You can't work with that.
- Teasing as a genuine, but maybe accidental expression of heart-felt, but maybe subconscious ambivalence. Falling in love with somebody can be pretty scary, because of the vulnerability it entails. Guys who lack self-awareness may use faux-hostile banter as a coping mechansim, to prevent things from getting too real too quickly. It's immaturity; people can and sometimes even do grow out it. You can work with that (by modelling courageous vulnerability yourself), but do take a hard look on whether it's worth the effort. It may require more patience than you can muster, and often it's going to be the girlfriend after you who really reaps the rewards.
- Teasing as his comfort zone, a childhood habit, a part of a familiar script. And I do actually think the script serves a relatable function in the context of banter - even if you do need to make yourself vulnerable at some point to haven an actual relationship, it's okay to not want to make yourself too vulnerable right out of the gate. I don't often feel like sharing deep secrets on a first date either and I actually get suspicious if someone brings out the big guns, conversation-wise, too quickly. I get the desire to keep things lightheared at first, to save more substantial revelations for later occasions. My preferred method for testing the waters is bog-standard small talk, but some people might worry that would bore a love interest; they might think a dating situation requires sparkling wit and creativity (which the banter, in my exerpience, rarely displays, but I can usually acknowledge that the intention was there).
I guess one way to cut down on the banter might talking up the alternatives, ("I know some people have a problem with small talk but I really like it; I don't always feel like talking about heavy stuff, I think it's sometimes nice to just chat a bit, without the need to be terribly clever"), excessively praise the slightest hint of any behaviour you actually want to see instead of the teasing ("I think it's so great how we can just comfortably sit in silence"). If he wants to be playful, show him ways to be playful that don't rely on teasing. ("Would you rather fight 20 duck-sized horses or 1 horse-sized duck?" "If you were a super-villain, what would be your plan for world domination?"). There are lots of ways to be silly together that don't involve faux-hostility. Sure, it's all very chilidsh, but I really feel any guy who's into teasing shouldn't have any issue with that. That's what I meant by offering alternative scripts. Set the tone yourself, give him an opportunity to mirror you.
posted by sohalt at 12:05 PM on December 29, 2018
I've brought up teasy/sarcastic interactions before and how I learned to dial it back. The bottom line for you is that if it makes you uncomfortable and you ask the person to stop and they don't then they aren't a friend.
Lately, when I meet guys who talk about "girls" they're dating or have slept with or work with I often make a comment along the lines of, "what's the age of consent where you live?" "Your VP is less than 18?" or just say "the woman?"
Those responses generally fluster the guy a bit, he starts to change his language but I'll keep correcting him again when he misses the beat. This is along the lines of "if it makes you uncomfortable and you ask them to stop then they aren't a friend."
I don't know anything about dating... I'm guessing this is something you'd say when you were more than perfect strangers with someone. 🤷🏼♀️
posted by bendy at 2:34 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Lately, when I meet guys who talk about "girls" they're dating or have slept with or work with I often make a comment along the lines of, "what's the age of consent where you live?" "Your VP is less than 18?" or just say "the woman?"
Those responses generally fluster the guy a bit, he starts to change his language but I'll keep correcting him again when he misses the beat. This is along the lines of "if it makes you uncomfortable and you ask them to stop then they aren't a friend."
I don't know anything about dating... I'm guessing this is something you'd say when you were more than perfect strangers with someone. 🤷🏼♀️
posted by bendy at 2:34 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I want to add that I have seen enough of women doing it, and doing it as a power play I think. It doesn't look to me as a special "male" thing.
Some school teachers use it as an easier way to control students, and to establish obedience in the classroom. I had a professor like that in the college, too.
I have a woman like that at work in the same room with me right now...
posted by Oli D. at 7:52 AM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Some school teachers use it as an easier way to control students, and to establish obedience in the classroom. I had a professor like that in the college, too.
I have a woman like that at work in the same room with me right now...
posted by Oli D. at 7:52 AM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
1. Why do men do this?
Men don’t do this. Arseholes do this.
And, whilst this is not your problem and it sucks that you have to adjust your life to deal with it, I think you need to find some better men to hang out with. In the case of your family that may not be practical, but it hopefully is otherwise.
I’m a 57yo bloke and was only dimly aware of the phenomenon until I read this post and all the answers. I have a stack of great male friends. None of them behave like this. Around me at least. Some of them I know would never do this, others possibly do in other contexts. I employ tradesmen and work with a broader range of them in other capacities. It’s not behaviour I see much among them or the professionals I also work with.
I wouldn’t tolerate this kind of behaviour amongst my mates or workmates. It sounds like I’m very fortunate, but I suggest that you can refuse to tolerate it as well. You might find yourself in a better world.
Again I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but it’s not inevitable. And that ex who you’re still friends with? He’s an arsehole. You can do much better.
posted by mewsic at 3:12 AM on January 4, 2019
Men don’t do this. Arseholes do this.
And, whilst this is not your problem and it sucks that you have to adjust your life to deal with it, I think you need to find some better men to hang out with. In the case of your family that may not be practical, but it hopefully is otherwise.
I’m a 57yo bloke and was only dimly aware of the phenomenon until I read this post and all the answers. I have a stack of great male friends. None of them behave like this. Around me at least. Some of them I know would never do this, others possibly do in other contexts. I employ tradesmen and work with a broader range of them in other capacities. It’s not behaviour I see much among them or the professionals I also work with.
I wouldn’t tolerate this kind of behaviour amongst my mates or workmates. It sounds like I’m very fortunate, but I suggest that you can refuse to tolerate it as well. You might find yourself in a better world.
Again I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but it’s not inevitable. And that ex who you’re still friends with? He’s an arsehole. You can do much better.
posted by mewsic at 3:12 AM on January 4, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
2. "You know that bothers me, so stop doing it. If you don't, you're showing me that you don't care about me."
3. "Fuck off, asshole."
posted by BostonTerrier at 9:39 AM on December 27, 2018 [18 favorites]