How to ruminate productively?
April 13, 2020 7:56 PM Subscribe
For years I have thought about a person I know whose life is more precarious than mine in ways that are not really solvable, but mentally I try to solve their problems anyway. It's like this person's life is a puzzle that I am trying to solve, but I really don't have any inputs from them other than the occasional "hey, this new thing happened"
I'd like to ruminate about this, but productively.
It's like I'm turning a rubix cube over in my hands but not really twisting the segments or seeing a way in. What questions can I ask myself in order to "solve" this and move on?
I do think this person's troubles are my troubles turned up to 💯 so I have an inkling I am trying to solve my own problems by analogy, as in "if only friend did x things would be better, therefore if I do x things will be better for me" but I really don't think there is anything friend can do, their situation just is what it is.
This is a little vague but say, for example, friend is poor. I would like to stay employed and not be poor. But instead of thinking, how can I stay employed, I just think of how friend has no options and really there is nothing they can do. But my worry is not really about them, while the lack of solutions to their money troubles are about me. It's a pretzeled analogy instead of a linear one.
This is a pre-quarantine mental pattern of mine.
What questions can I ask myself to untwist this pretzel?
It's like I'm turning a rubix cube over in my hands but not really twisting the segments or seeing a way in. What questions can I ask myself in order to "solve" this and move on?
I do think this person's troubles are my troubles turned up to 💯 so I have an inkling I am trying to solve my own problems by analogy, as in "if only friend did x things would be better, therefore if I do x things will be better for me" but I really don't think there is anything friend can do, their situation just is what it is.
This is a little vague but say, for example, friend is poor. I would like to stay employed and not be poor. But instead of thinking, how can I stay employed, I just think of how friend has no options and really there is nothing they can do. But my worry is not really about them, while the lack of solutions to their money troubles are about me. It's a pretzeled analogy instead of a linear one.
This is a pre-quarantine mental pattern of mine.
What questions can I ask myself to untwist this pretzel?
I do think this person's troubles are my troubles turned up to 💯 so I have an inkling I am trying to solve my own problems by analogy, as in "if only friend did x things would be better, therefore if I do x things will be better for me"
First, I suspect you should leave your friend out of it entirely. You're avoiding dealing with real topics in your life by focusing elsewhere.
Second, I would start writing down your questions and answers and referring back to them when they arise again. You can only ruminate for a second or two if you have your previous answer right in front of you; it will force you to either give up ruminating or to start getting creative in coming up with new answers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:02 PM on April 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
First, I suspect you should leave your friend out of it entirely. You're avoiding dealing with real topics in your life by focusing elsewhere.
Second, I would start writing down your questions and answers and referring back to them when they arise again. You can only ruminate for a second or two if you have your previous answer right in front of you; it will force you to either give up ruminating or to start getting creative in coming up with new answers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:02 PM on April 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think the question I would ask myself is, "what if their problem is not solvable?" How does it feel to accept that idea into your heart, what emotions does it bring up for you. I think in some ways you are using the solvability of their problems as a proxy for the solvability of your own problems, not the specific problems but the existence of a solution.
What if you're bashing your head against the wall because there is no solution to the problem as you are framing it? What other possibilities are so terrible or unthinkable you aren't even considering them? Are some of them maybe less unthinkable if you look at them straight on in the light of day, if you acknowledge that your current set of goals are incompatible with each other?
posted by Lady Li at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
What if you're bashing your head against the wall because there is no solution to the problem as you are framing it? What other possibilities are so terrible or unthinkable you aren't even considering them? Are some of them maybe less unthinkable if you look at them straight on in the light of day, if you acknowledge that your current set of goals are incompatible with each other?
posted by Lady Li at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I think it's probably not a bad exercise to occasionally contemplate the limits of human agency, but it might be better for your relationship with your friend if you did not always use his life as a focal point. Fortunately this very topic is frequently treated in art and philosophy, so maybe it might serve you to go a bit more meta for a while, read what thoughtful people write about fate and free will or the lack of it and how they do or do not make their peace with any of it.
posted by sohalt at 12:29 AM on April 14, 2020
posted by sohalt at 12:29 AM on April 14, 2020
I have a very good friend who has patiently and constantly reminded me that other people's problems are the lives they are living, and it is not my job to modify them, even if I think it is for the better. I do have plenty of problems of my own, to solve, and deflecting my attention elsewhere is not in my best interests. In fact the only real problem I have is a failure to joyously thrive, enough to enrich my life, and have a continued interest in the social and work interactions that give me a place "at the table." I convinced myself I don't like tables, I don't need tables, etc...
One key is kinder internal dialogue, and reinvestment of time in acts, rather than rumination.
posted by Oyéah at 12:01 PM on April 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
One key is kinder internal dialogue, and reinvestment of time in acts, rather than rumination.
posted by Oyéah at 12:01 PM on April 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The thing about your question is that there is a bit of a contradiction in the very question itself. Rumination is by definition unproductive recurring thoughts. It's kinda like you asked "How can I self harm productively?" or "How can I sabotage myself productively?" You can sort of bend the meaning of the word rumination a bit to answer the question, like suggesting you donate a kidney as a productive form of self harm, but no matter what answer I give it's not really going to fit the question you asked.
Rumination is where you slide into a comfortable groove of emotion led thoughts. Sometimes it is far easier to think about your old boyfriend than it is to figure out anything else to think, particularly when you are feeling upset to begin with (perhaps from not eating, or being scared about your job performance.) Rumination is often a displacement activity where you obsess about something that is no longer relevant, or obsess about something that is easy to think about compared to other things you might be spending planning resources on more fruitfully but are just too big and complex to think about. It's far easier to mourn and rage over that old unsuitable boyfriend than to put yourself out and look for dates, or figure out what part of the disastrous relationship you need to avoid repeating if you want a new one.
In this case ruminating about what someone else might do in a situation you have no control over is very much not useful unless it's as a blocker for thoughts that would hurt you even more. However simply asking the question you did indicates that you are ready to start thinking more productively, and just don't know how to turn the squirrel-chasing-its-tail thoughts into something that might help you or help your friend. You already have a lot of insight.
So what to think and how to think it?
You can start by organizing your thoughts about the situation, by turning them into a precise, boiled down point form:
George is under employed.
George does not have the education to get a better job
George does not have the contacts to get a better job
George does not have the social skills to present well.
And then some of the sub headings:
George does not have the aptitude to do well if he goes back to school, let alone the money.
Then stop thinking about it and ask some new questions, again in brief point form.
How could George get the contacts to get a better job?
How could George get the social skills to present well?
What type of employment could George get that would pay him more and be reasonably close to his current skill set?
Could George enhance his study skills?
Then instead of thinking more, sit down and do some research. Say George is working as an orderly. If he trained to become an LPN would he actually make more money? Maybe not. Going back to school might only mean debt and no increase in income. That kind of information is important to prove by doing research. Is there a resume help group that he could attend that would also coach him in job interview skills? If you know there is then you can consider that as a possible move in the right direction; if you know there isn't it's time to think of other possibilities.
These are examples. George's poverty could be based on a whole lot of different things, such as the fact that most of his energy goes into looking after his family instead of making an income, but the same technique of writing down short points and then researching to answer questions applies.
Of course, the chances are high that most of George's situation will boil down to systemic things, and primarily the fact that wealth is reserved for the competitively successful and George is not good at competition. You already know that resume preparation and job interviewing help are unlikely to do much for George because with most problems the people involved have already tried everything they can think of and are working to improve their situation to the best of their abilities. Maybe what you and George both might need to do to enhance your security is community involvement and political activity because until the system changes you will both be financially precarious.
But sometimes going through things in a detached methodical way will come up with information that you and George don't have, such as that with the current lock down the grocery stores and supply distribution companies are hiring like mad and doing remote interviewing including over the telephone, so George might be able to get one of those jobs with more hours and more money.
Things do change, so it is worth checking periodically to be aware what might have changed. Often people have tried everything they could... and then given up trying because it was too stressful to keep trying and failing. This means that for many of us a good strategy is to try, try and try again, and then take a break for three months before going back to look if anything is different and if there is any point trying once more.
Now you mentioned that you think that probably your fixation on George is displacement from your only similar but not as bad situation. Researching how to solve George's problem might be a low stress way of doing your own research. You might find that after looking up ways that George could network, and loaning him the outfit to go for a job interview, your stress level is reduced enough that you are up to taking a look on LinkedIn to see what connections you might have for enhancing finding a better job, or what part time inexpensive on-line professional skills enhancement might be available for you so that you can ask for more responsibilities and maybe get a raise or have more good stuff to put on your resume.
Of course George might be affronted and disgusted if you start trying to tell him how to live his life, but that's fine. If you know he isn't ready to look for work and you'd just dismay him if you send him the networking information and the job leads, simply don't tell him about the research you are doing and the information you have been coming up with. Often what we need to be more successful is practice in organizing and leading, so just because you're not going to share your information with George is not a reason not to do the research. A good leader knows when not to herd cats and when not to put burdens on other people that they can't carry.
Thinking about George has been working for you. If it hadn't been working in some way, you'd have forgotten to do it. So a good thing to explore is what it has been displacing and why it has been easier to think about George than yourself. You might discover that you are living with an unthinkable thought in the back of your head, believing that you are a failure and doomed to be a failure because of some specific flaw or disadvantage of your own. But once you face that thought you can start to contest it and work around it. Begin with "If this is true what can I do to increase my income despite that fact?" If your flaw is "Nobody will trust me because I am untrustworthy," the thought that can follow is, "How can I become more trustworthy?" It takes acceptance of the unbearable thoughts to do this type of reasoning - and it sounds like that is what you are hoping for, epiphanies and new productive lines of thought. And if the thought is inescapable, then you can grieve about it and maybe accept it and not be afraid of it, or hurt so much because of it.
Another way you can make your fixation on George more productive is if you look for proof that will enable you to stop thinking the same thoughts. If you keep thinking "If only George could get a job..." then research could make you conclude, "There is NO way George will ever get a job," and this will enable you to stop wishing he would try. If you look at the job market and see that only people with at least two years of university and decent orthodontry can get a job at McDonald's and you know that George has only three years of high school and a cute but slightly overlapping overbite, you can stop wishing you would apply for work there every time you see the golden arches.
Research, finding out more, always helps. It reduces uncertainty, and it means you gain new ways to think about the situation. Figure out what questions to ask, and then look for the answers. Of course once you do that it won't be rumination any longer.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:36 AM on April 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Rumination is where you slide into a comfortable groove of emotion led thoughts. Sometimes it is far easier to think about your old boyfriend than it is to figure out anything else to think, particularly when you are feeling upset to begin with (perhaps from not eating, or being scared about your job performance.) Rumination is often a displacement activity where you obsess about something that is no longer relevant, or obsess about something that is easy to think about compared to other things you might be spending planning resources on more fruitfully but are just too big and complex to think about. It's far easier to mourn and rage over that old unsuitable boyfriend than to put yourself out and look for dates, or figure out what part of the disastrous relationship you need to avoid repeating if you want a new one.
In this case ruminating about what someone else might do in a situation you have no control over is very much not useful unless it's as a blocker for thoughts that would hurt you even more. However simply asking the question you did indicates that you are ready to start thinking more productively, and just don't know how to turn the squirrel-chasing-its-tail thoughts into something that might help you or help your friend. You already have a lot of insight.
So what to think and how to think it?
You can start by organizing your thoughts about the situation, by turning them into a precise, boiled down point form:
George is under employed.
George does not have the education to get a better job
George does not have the contacts to get a better job
George does not have the social skills to present well.
And then some of the sub headings:
George does not have the aptitude to do well if he goes back to school, let alone the money.
Then stop thinking about it and ask some new questions, again in brief point form.
How could George get the contacts to get a better job?
How could George get the social skills to present well?
What type of employment could George get that would pay him more and be reasonably close to his current skill set?
Could George enhance his study skills?
Then instead of thinking more, sit down and do some research. Say George is working as an orderly. If he trained to become an LPN would he actually make more money? Maybe not. Going back to school might only mean debt and no increase in income. That kind of information is important to prove by doing research. Is there a resume help group that he could attend that would also coach him in job interview skills? If you know there is then you can consider that as a possible move in the right direction; if you know there isn't it's time to think of other possibilities.
These are examples. George's poverty could be based on a whole lot of different things, such as the fact that most of his energy goes into looking after his family instead of making an income, but the same technique of writing down short points and then researching to answer questions applies.
Of course, the chances are high that most of George's situation will boil down to systemic things, and primarily the fact that wealth is reserved for the competitively successful and George is not good at competition. You already know that resume preparation and job interviewing help are unlikely to do much for George because with most problems the people involved have already tried everything they can think of and are working to improve their situation to the best of their abilities. Maybe what you and George both might need to do to enhance your security is community involvement and political activity because until the system changes you will both be financially precarious.
But sometimes going through things in a detached methodical way will come up with information that you and George don't have, such as that with the current lock down the grocery stores and supply distribution companies are hiring like mad and doing remote interviewing including over the telephone, so George might be able to get one of those jobs with more hours and more money.
Things do change, so it is worth checking periodically to be aware what might have changed. Often people have tried everything they could... and then given up trying because it was too stressful to keep trying and failing. This means that for many of us a good strategy is to try, try and try again, and then take a break for three months before going back to look if anything is different and if there is any point trying once more.
Now you mentioned that you think that probably your fixation on George is displacement from your only similar but not as bad situation. Researching how to solve George's problem might be a low stress way of doing your own research. You might find that after looking up ways that George could network, and loaning him the outfit to go for a job interview, your stress level is reduced enough that you are up to taking a look on LinkedIn to see what connections you might have for enhancing finding a better job, or what part time inexpensive on-line professional skills enhancement might be available for you so that you can ask for more responsibilities and maybe get a raise or have more good stuff to put on your resume.
Of course George might be affronted and disgusted if you start trying to tell him how to live his life, but that's fine. If you know he isn't ready to look for work and you'd just dismay him if you send him the networking information and the job leads, simply don't tell him about the research you are doing and the information you have been coming up with. Often what we need to be more successful is practice in organizing and leading, so just because you're not going to share your information with George is not a reason not to do the research. A good leader knows when not to herd cats and when not to put burdens on other people that they can't carry.
Thinking about George has been working for you. If it hadn't been working in some way, you'd have forgotten to do it. So a good thing to explore is what it has been displacing and why it has been easier to think about George than yourself. You might discover that you are living with an unthinkable thought in the back of your head, believing that you are a failure and doomed to be a failure because of some specific flaw or disadvantage of your own. But once you face that thought you can start to contest it and work around it. Begin with "If this is true what can I do to increase my income despite that fact?" If your flaw is "Nobody will trust me because I am untrustworthy," the thought that can follow is, "How can I become more trustworthy?" It takes acceptance of the unbearable thoughts to do this type of reasoning - and it sounds like that is what you are hoping for, epiphanies and new productive lines of thought. And if the thought is inescapable, then you can grieve about it and maybe accept it and not be afraid of it, or hurt so much because of it.
Another way you can make your fixation on George more productive is if you look for proof that will enable you to stop thinking the same thoughts. If you keep thinking "If only George could get a job..." then research could make you conclude, "There is NO way George will ever get a job," and this will enable you to stop wishing he would try. If you look at the job market and see that only people with at least two years of university and decent orthodontry can get a job at McDonald's and you know that George has only three years of high school and a cute but slightly overlapping overbite, you can stop wishing you would apply for work there every time you see the golden arches.
Research, finding out more, always helps. It reduces uncertainty, and it means you gain new ways to think about the situation. Figure out what questions to ask, and then look for the answers. Of course once you do that it won't be rumination any longer.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:36 AM on April 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Really, this is classic displacement. It's always easier to solve other people's problems objectively than face the problems in our own lives. It is very common for people to fall into a pattern of thinking about or helping others to shift focus away from what needs to be examined and dealt with in their own lives. It feels sort of productive so we get a reward from feeling helpful or pious. This is a trap.
Try imagining telling your problems to someone you respect and like. What would they say you should do?
posted by ananci at 9:01 PM on April 13, 2020 [2 favorites]