No, I Insist!
October 31, 2019 10:15 PM Subscribe
How do you deal with people fighting you when you want to pick up the tab or buy someone a drink for helping them? Or vice versa?
I have an issue with people occasionally fighting hard against my offers to buy a drink or something relatively minor in exchange for helping me out with something or even just to pick up the tab to be nice / that's what friends do sometimes, etc. This just happened to me last night, and I still feel strange about it, so I am posting to the green.
How does one deal with this? I end up not fighting back very hard, maybe a few "oh come on"s or eye rolls, but then allowing them to pay/get their own drink/etc. And then I feel stupid and awkward. Like, should I have been like "no I insist!" and fought even HARDER to give the waitress or bartender my card? Does the friend not think I tried hard enough to fight their denial of the gift?
I sometimes see other people go through this huge charade of fighting over it, to the point where they're grabbing each other's credit cards, which to me is ridiculous. So if someone offers to buy me a round or something I might put up a mini fight but I will let them do it because, again, I feel fighting over all that so awkward. To me if the person is offering, the offer should be accepted without too much of a fuss because then it gets weird.
I guess what I'm asking is how to navigate this when people often (at least in my observation) have different "rules" in their minds of how this should be played out?
I have an issue with people occasionally fighting hard against my offers to buy a drink or something relatively minor in exchange for helping me out with something or even just to pick up the tab to be nice / that's what friends do sometimes, etc. This just happened to me last night, and I still feel strange about it, so I am posting to the green.
How does one deal with this? I end up not fighting back very hard, maybe a few "oh come on"s or eye rolls, but then allowing them to pay/get their own drink/etc. And then I feel stupid and awkward. Like, should I have been like "no I insist!" and fought even HARDER to give the waitress or bartender my card? Does the friend not think I tried hard enough to fight their denial of the gift?
I sometimes see other people go through this huge charade of fighting over it, to the point where they're grabbing each other's credit cards, which to me is ridiculous. So if someone offers to buy me a round or something I might put up a mini fight but I will let them do it because, again, I feel fighting over all that so awkward. To me if the person is offering, the offer should be accepted without too much of a fuss because then it gets weird.
I guess what I'm asking is how to navigate this when people often (at least in my observation) have different "rules" in their minds of how this should be played out?
I just quietly advise the bartender or waitron that I'm paying; there's a lot less bickering when it's a done deal and the bill is on one card already!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:40 PM on October 31, 2019 [20 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:40 PM on October 31, 2019 [20 favorites]
Unfortunately this is an aspect of my culture, I can't pretend that I deal with it particularly gracefully. My wife claims I once threw another man's wallet into a restaurant aquarium in order to claim the bill.
Do I recall this? Not even slightly. But I am forced to admit it feels true. It's embarrassing ..but it's part of the tradition. There's no way around it.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 11:52 PM on October 31, 2019 [29 favorites]
Do I recall this? Not even slightly. But I am forced to admit it feels true. It's embarrassing ..but it's part of the tradition. There's no way around it.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 11:52 PM on October 31, 2019 [29 favorites]
Pop to the bar before anyone asks for the bill and pay it there.
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:48 AM on November 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:48 AM on November 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
It’s partly a (subconscious) status thing, which is why some people go through a huge rigamarole about it. If I feel that the other person will be unreasonable (my FIL) and I want to pay, I go and get the receipt and pay early. Or set up the tab on my card. Other people I just insist and as necessary claim that they paid last time. I also let people pay half the time.
posted by plonkee at 1:43 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 1:43 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I will offer to pay and if they refuse, I follow up with an offer to split it; that usually gets accepted because I am mostly friends with reasonable people. However if either offer somehow makes someone more aggressive/loud/shouty/etc about demanding to pay then I just let them pay and don't go places with them anymore bc life is too short to deal with lunatics. Similarly if I let someone pay after all that nonsense and they later act as though I should have argued harder with them, or allege that I never pick up a tab, good day sir. I take people at their word when interacting irl, and if I ask someone if there's a problem or if they want me to do something and they repeatedly insist that the answer is a loud NO! then it's their problem if that's a passive-aggressive lie, not mine. I have suffered on this fucking earth trapped in this grotesque flesh prison for 10,000 long years and I am done fooling around.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [39 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 2:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [39 favorites]
"You can get it next time".
I wouldn't fight too hard to pay, unless it's someone who always pays for you ("You paid last time, it's my turn now") or unless you know the other person is less financially well off than you and would probably be relieved to not pay.
posted by trig at 3:02 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't fight too hard to pay, unless it's someone who always pays for you ("You paid last time, it's my turn now") or unless you know the other person is less financially well off than you and would probably be relieved to not pay.
posted by trig at 3:02 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
If they've established a pattern of this you've just got to head them off at the pass, slip the wait staff your card or cash and make sure it's a done deal before anything comes down. Then they can protest all they want but nope, done. I've a sister and brother-in-law that love me no end and have fistfuls of money and sortof don't understand that while I don't have fistfuls of money I love them no end too and even probably more than they love me (were you to ask me) and I'm by god going to get my end of the deal so clam up already.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:10 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by dancestoblue at 4:10 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
My family of origin does this and I long ago resolved not to participate in such rituals because I find them stressful and confusing. If the other person offers to pay, I thank them graciously. If I offer to pay and they refuse, I respect that. I keep loose track of the "balance" between us to make up for it in other ways/on other stuff if I end up with too many free coffees/meals, but don't penalize lack of reciprocation on their side. It's so lovely not to end a pleasant interaction with a squabble!
On preview: I have never had a friend who I know is financially strapped offer to get me anything more expensive than a cup of coffee or hot chocolate, which I've accepted as the heartfelt gift it was. I have however preemptively gotten to pay-at-the-counter places a little early so there was no chance of them trying to cover my food.
posted by teremala at 4:35 AM on November 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
On preview: I have never had a friend who I know is financially strapped offer to get me anything more expensive than a cup of coffee or hot chocolate, which I've accepted as the heartfelt gift it was. I have however preemptively gotten to pay-at-the-counter places a little early so there was no chance of them trying to cover my food.
posted by teremala at 4:35 AM on November 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
My standard is "Aw thanks! I've got you next time!" and I do!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 4:43 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 4:43 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
My usual tactic for this is to smile and list all of the things these people have done for me in the past and for which I am grateful. That's usually enough, and when it isn't I do the "Well gosh, thank you! I'll get the next one, though!" and add that evening to the list for next time.
This is partly a habit from dealing with Japanese relatives, for whom the form of a polite greeting after some time apart is to thank the person for specific past kindnesses and support. It also just helps your outlook on life to think of people in terms of the most helpful they've been to you instead of cataloguing resentments.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 4:47 AM on November 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is partly a habit from dealing with Japanese relatives, for whom the form of a polite greeting after some time apart is to thank the person for specific past kindnesses and support. It also just helps your outlook on life to think of people in terms of the most helpful they've been to you instead of cataloguing resentments.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 4:47 AM on November 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
“When you get tenure you owe me a drink.”
Makes it humorous but always works.
posted by spitbull at 5:08 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Makes it humorous but always works.
posted by spitbull at 5:08 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Either hand the server your card before/when the check comes, or list specifically what you're thanking them for. "No no, I got this, it was so good to pick your brain about painting techniques."
posted by DoubleLune at 5:50 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by DoubleLune at 5:50 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
You're right that this works differently in different cultures, is the thing, and I think ignoring that is missing the point of the question.
In some you're expected to have a comically intense battle over who gets to pay.
In some you're expected to respect other people's stated boundaries and let them pay for themself if they want, and sneaking around to snag the check first is actually super weird.
In some there's a norm like "the junior person is supposed to make a polite offer to pay, and the senior person is supposed to go 'no, no, I insist.'"
I think if one of these norms is clearly dominant where you are, you should follow it. And if you and someone else have established a tradition of following one of them, you should maintain the tradition. But if not, what you're doing — which is basically "follow the norm I'm most familiar and comfortable with" — seems fine to me. If someone gives you a hard time, you can in all honesty say "Oh, yeah, this is the custom I grew up with / approve of / feel comfortable with / whatever."
(Also, this is probably my own cultural background speaking, but if someone habitually makes offers they'll resent you for accepting, I feel like they're at least part of the problem.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
In some you're expected to have a comically intense battle over who gets to pay.
In some you're expected to respect other people's stated boundaries and let them pay for themself if they want, and sneaking around to snag the check first is actually super weird.
In some there's a norm like "the junior person is supposed to make a polite offer to pay, and the senior person is supposed to go 'no, no, I insist.'"
I think if one of these norms is clearly dominant where you are, you should follow it. And if you and someone else have established a tradition of following one of them, you should maintain the tradition. But if not, what you're doing — which is basically "follow the norm I'm most familiar and comfortable with" — seems fine to me. If someone gives you a hard time, you can in all honesty say "Oh, yeah, this is the custom I grew up with / approve of / feel comfortable with / whatever."
(Also, this is probably my own cultural background speaking, but if someone habitually makes offers they'll resent you for accepting, I feel like they're at least part of the problem.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
Oh! Also! When people have those comically intense battles over who pays, they've built up to it. That's almost never the first time they're drinking together. They're having a fun private game of one-upsmanship that's grown over the course of their friendship, or been building in the family or in a bigger community for years.
It's like when families have a tradition like "the twins give each other the grossest food they can find for Christmas." It starts out with, like, some kind of sardines or something, and it's only twenty years later that they're hiding ripe durians in each other's linen closets. If they jumped right to the ripe-durian-in-your-favorite-pillowcase stage it would be weird.
So definitely do not feel compelled to jump to wallet-in-the-fishtank right away. Either things will get there on their own or they won't.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:06 AM on November 1, 2019 [12 favorites]
It's like when families have a tradition like "the twins give each other the grossest food they can find for Christmas." It starts out with, like, some kind of sardines or something, and it's only twenty years later that they're hiding ripe durians in each other's linen closets. If they jumped right to the ripe-durian-in-your-favorite-pillowcase stage it would be weird.
So definitely do not feel compelled to jump to wallet-in-the-fishtank right away. Either things will get there on their own or they won't.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:06 AM on November 1, 2019 [12 favorites]
Deeper cultural status issues aside (which do get tricky to suss out and navigate, especially when there is a cross-cultural mix), this dynamic is often a result of either tilting the natural balance of exchange/obligation in the relationship, or (conversely) of making the relationship feel too exchange-based. What works for me is any of a variety of statements that gently restore or reinforce the expected account of balance:
"It's my turn and I'm happy to do it."
"Please, it will make me feel good to treat."
"Your support (help, kindness...) through XYZ has meant so much to me, this is just a token of my appreciation."
"It's been such a pleasure to see you and I want to get the tab this time. It's my pleasure."
posted by shelbaroo at 6:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
"It's my turn and I'm happy to do it."
"Please, it will make me feel good to treat."
"Your support (help, kindness...) through XYZ has meant so much to me, this is just a token of my appreciation."
"It's been such a pleasure to see you and I want to get the tab this time. It's my pleasure."
posted by shelbaroo at 6:58 AM on November 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
As a couple others have suggested, make it a fait accompli. Pay the server when you go to the restroom, or signal the bartender when your pal does the same.
It's also kind of fun, because it's a surprise. "I guess we should pay." "Oh, I took care of it. You can get the next one!"
posted by uberchet at 7:15 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's also kind of fun, because it's a surprise. "I guess we should pay." "Oh, I took care of it. You can get the next one!"
posted by uberchet at 7:15 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
This happens in my culture (Pakistani/Indian) and I remember long drawn out battles between my parents and their friends over who would pick up the bill. My wife does this a lot too even though she is from a different culture (Japanese). I'm more laid back about the whole thing and will try to pay but basically I've adopted a whoever gets their card/money to the server/tray first wins mentality. If the other person ends up paying my wife will inevitably complain to me later on that I gave up too early. I figure these things even out over time so don't think about it too much.
I have some friends who always want to split the bill/get separate bills and it feels too transactional to me even if it is objectively fairer.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:39 AM on November 1, 2019
I have some friends who always want to split the bill/get separate bills and it feels too transactional to me even if it is objectively fairer.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:39 AM on November 1, 2019
IIRC, Miss Manners suggested offering three times (to pay, to help your hostess with chores, etc.) after which you can just let it go. In my circles, it tends to work as an offer, a refusal, and a second offer with the reason (you paid last time, you helped me move, I have a gift card here...) which is accepted. I do tend to let better off friends pay more and pay more for friends who make less.
posted by momus_window at 7:41 AM on November 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 7:41 AM on November 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Damn, I think it's super shitty to sneak around someone's refusal by secretly giving the server your card. Respect people's boundaries. If someone says no they have a valid reason.
posted by joan_holloway at 8:04 AM on November 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by joan_holloway at 8:04 AM on November 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Wow - this is still super weird to me (still because my husband is a lifelong fighter on this one and I just don't get it). If I offer to pay and the other person insists, then I let them pay. I can always get them something nice as a surprise gift later. Some people get more joy from picking up checks than they do from being treated. If the goal is to make them happy, why fight it?
posted by Mchelly at 8:21 AM on November 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 8:21 AM on November 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't play the game. I just say thank you. It's amazing how quickly they stop wanting to pay all the time when you don't fight them for it & if they don't it's less stressful just to let them.
posted by wwax at 8:29 AM on November 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by wwax at 8:29 AM on November 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Damn, I think it's super shitty to sneak aroundI should be clear that I, at least, only do this as a way of avoiding any argument, not as a result of argument.
posted by uberchet at 9:09 AM on November 1, 2019
> Damn, I think it's super shitty to sneak around someone's refusal by secretly giving the server your card
It really depends on context. In my extended family, it's an established game and can go as far as sneaking cash to spouses. I don't play the game because I don't enjoy it, but the participants clearly do.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:39 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
It really depends on context. In my extended family, it's an established game and can go as far as sneaking cash to spouses. I don't play the game because I don't enjoy it, but the participants clearly do.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:39 AM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am on the receiving end of this with my brother in law, who pulls every trick in the book to make sure he pays - including pre-arranging the bill with the server, grabbing, loudly arguing, etc. It's just exasperating. The only method that sometimes works is to establish well up front that "tonight is my treat." Like - "There is this place that we really think you would like, I would really like to take you there - my treat." Then if he pulls the usual show when the bill comes, I can remind him that the whole premise of the evening was "my treat" and he agreed. This works maybe half the time. It's infuriating.
posted by Mid at 11:46 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mid at 11:46 AM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I hate this game so much. I think the best answer if you offer and someone refuses is to either say, "okay I'll get it next time," or offer to split it. If someone insists on paying I let them after maybe one "are you sure?" It's super annoying to be a party to a vigorous back and forth, and it's awkward for all witnesses. Then when someone "wins" everyone feels stupid again.
posted by JenMarie at 11:50 AM on November 1, 2019
posted by JenMarie at 11:50 AM on November 1, 2019
Agree it depends on context and culture. Mock indignation usually gets my friends to laugh and put away their card. “Paying makes me feel good, how could you take that away from me?! Oh my god, how selfish of you.”
posted by jessca84 at 3:51 PM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by jessca84 at 3:51 PM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
My sympathies, this is a stressful and anxiety-inducing social dilemma (my most recent Ask question was inspired by this very issue). I think momus_window's suggestion of deferring after you've asked three times is probably the best general strategy since you know you have an out after a certain amount of pushback. This also puts you in line with Chinese etiquette norms!
To those who think some of the strategies and theatrics around this issue are weird or "shitty," this behaviour is deeply socially ingrained and is about as weird and perverse as asking your coworkers "how are you" every morning (which some other cultures do find infuriating).
posted by Rora at 4:15 PM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
To those who think some of the strategies and theatrics around this issue are weird or "shitty," this behaviour is deeply socially ingrained and is about as weird and perverse as asking your coworkers "how are you" every morning (which some other cultures do find infuriating).
posted by Rora at 4:15 PM on November 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Tell them when you invite them that "It's my treat" or "I'm taking you out as a way to thank you". Don't surprise them at the end of the meal.
posted by amtho at 11:30 PM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 11:30 PM on November 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
One other thought on this - a lot of times waiters/waitresses take a cue very early in the meal regarding "who is in charge" when it comes time to order wine (if you are ordering wine). In my experience, the person who secures the wine list and appears to be the decision-maker with respect to wine is the person who is presumed to be the one paying the bill. So, if you are planning on paying the bill, make sure that you are the person ordering the wine if there is going to be a bottle ordered for the table. Similarly, if you want to jump out ahead on this game, you can grab the wine list at the start and casually say "what do people feel like, etc." and then order something - this marks your position as "in charge" of what is being ordered and therefore the person who should pay. Indeed, one advantage here is that if your rival does not know how expensive the wine is, they may be disinclined to grab the check!
posted by Mid at 7:28 AM on November 4, 2019
posted by Mid at 7:28 AM on November 4, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 10:55 PM on October 31, 2019 [10 favorites]