Not sure if relationship communication issues fixable and what they are
May 24, 2019 9:33 PM Subscribe
My bf and I have been together 4 years. The last 3 months we've had a big fight about once a month. The latest was pretty bad and I'm sitting here in the aftermath thinking about the way we both acted and whether we can work on this together. My bf is opposed to therapy and doesn't like people telling him what to do. What are our communication issues and can they be fixed if my bf isn't interested in therapy?
For context, I moved to my bf's city 3 years ago. Have had some mental health issues which are getting better, I see a therapist and do work in my own time. I do reach out to my bf for support regarding my loneliness and issues with my body and family and he provides it. I am a sensitive person and cry easily.
What I would really love is for someone to take a look at my recount of our fight and to tell me what the issues are and whether there's an easy was of fixing them that doesn't involve therapy or self help stuff for my bf. I'm aware of my own role in keeping the argument going and that it was probably too sensetive of me to ask him not to laugh at the thing. I'm just so caught up in this I can't see it from the outside and decide if this is something fixable.
• I'm describing a social event I'm trying to work up the courage to go to when K laughs at an aspect of it
• I say can you not laugh at that please
• K says nothing wrong with laughing at it
• I say it hurts me when he does, ask for an apology
• K doesnt give it, reiterates nothing wrong with laughing at it
• I say I'm upset because I feel like he doesn't care that what he did hurt me
• K says he's supporting me with going to the event, I'm acting ungrateful by fixating on this small thing and saying he doesn't care
• I say I know he cares but his refusal to apologize or acknowledge that his laughing was hurtful makes me feel like he doesn't care about that pain in the moment
• K says he does a lot to support me with issues I should have left behind in highschool
• I start crying, tell K that his comment upset me and he often remarks that I act like a child in relation to things like feeling lonely etc
• K says he doesn't say it that often, back and forth about this
• K says I always act like he doesn't do anything for me, says he has helped me with so much stuff that it's impacted his own mental health in the past and athough I act appreciative when he helps me or straight after I forget about it in between
• I say I haven't said said that he doesn't do anything for me, I was only talking about the pain I felt in the moment bcz of how he responded to my request not to laugh
• We both sit in silence for a while, then I go up to him and say sorry about the fight and after a bit ask him if we can talk about how to manage the issue of his humor sometimes being hurtful
• K says it depends on the situation, he doesn't feel that small things like him laughing in the situation are an issue
• I explain that I was feeling really vulnerable talking to him about the event bcz he'd previously said it was weird - he clarified that he meant the location was weird - I said ok I didn't get that, but in the moment I was worried telling him about it because it was an unusual thing and something I wanted to do/ share the experience of with him when he laughed at an aspect of it it hurt me
• K says he shouldn't have to apologize/pander to my insecurity about that kind of thing
• I say I think you should care if your partner is hurt
• At some point in this part K says he had a really hard week and wanted to just relax and I tell him I'm sorry he's had a hard time, ask if he wants to talk about it (I'd encouraged him to talk about it last night and bought him some dessert to help him feel better, did stuff he finds comforting), he says not with you, I say why not, do you not feel like I can support you etc, he says most of the time you do but I just don't want any further drama
• K talks again about me not being grateful for his support, me saying things that imply he doesn't do anything, brings up his comment about me being ungrateful like my mum from last fight and that when he said that last time I relented and told him I was grateful
• K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
• I tell him again that I appreciate him and Ive never said he doesn't do anything for me
• K shouts that I must have selective memory and that he's the one who has to live with me never appreciating him enough, bangs fist on bed
• K says he's going to find a hotel room for the night and go out
• We sit in silence for a while, then I go up to him and ask if he's still angry, he shrugs, I say sorry that I made you upset, he says I'm sorry you were upset too, I offer to give him some space and go for a walk
For context, I moved to my bf's city 3 years ago. Have had some mental health issues which are getting better, I see a therapist and do work in my own time. I do reach out to my bf for support regarding my loneliness and issues with my body and family and he provides it. I am a sensitive person and cry easily.
What I would really love is for someone to take a look at my recount of our fight and to tell me what the issues are and whether there's an easy was of fixing them that doesn't involve therapy or self help stuff for my bf. I'm aware of my own role in keeping the argument going and that it was probably too sensetive of me to ask him not to laugh at the thing. I'm just so caught up in this I can't see it from the outside and decide if this is something fixable.
• I'm describing a social event I'm trying to work up the courage to go to when K laughs at an aspect of it
• I say can you not laugh at that please
• K says nothing wrong with laughing at it
• I say it hurts me when he does, ask for an apology
• K doesnt give it, reiterates nothing wrong with laughing at it
• I say I'm upset because I feel like he doesn't care that what he did hurt me
• K says he's supporting me with going to the event, I'm acting ungrateful by fixating on this small thing and saying he doesn't care
• I say I know he cares but his refusal to apologize or acknowledge that his laughing was hurtful makes me feel like he doesn't care about that pain in the moment
• K says he does a lot to support me with issues I should have left behind in highschool
• I start crying, tell K that his comment upset me and he often remarks that I act like a child in relation to things like feeling lonely etc
• K says he doesn't say it that often, back and forth about this
• K says I always act like he doesn't do anything for me, says he has helped me with so much stuff that it's impacted his own mental health in the past and athough I act appreciative when he helps me or straight after I forget about it in between
• I say I haven't said said that he doesn't do anything for me, I was only talking about the pain I felt in the moment bcz of how he responded to my request not to laugh
• We both sit in silence for a while, then I go up to him and say sorry about the fight and after a bit ask him if we can talk about how to manage the issue of his humor sometimes being hurtful
• K says it depends on the situation, he doesn't feel that small things like him laughing in the situation are an issue
• I explain that I was feeling really vulnerable talking to him about the event bcz he'd previously said it was weird - he clarified that he meant the location was weird - I said ok I didn't get that, but in the moment I was worried telling him about it because it was an unusual thing and something I wanted to do/ share the experience of with him when he laughed at an aspect of it it hurt me
• K says he shouldn't have to apologize/pander to my insecurity about that kind of thing
• I say I think you should care if your partner is hurt
• At some point in this part K says he had a really hard week and wanted to just relax and I tell him I'm sorry he's had a hard time, ask if he wants to talk about it (I'd encouraged him to talk about it last night and bought him some dessert to help him feel better, did stuff he finds comforting), he says not with you, I say why not, do you not feel like I can support you etc, he says most of the time you do but I just don't want any further drama
• K talks again about me not being grateful for his support, me saying things that imply he doesn't do anything, brings up his comment about me being ungrateful like my mum from last fight and that when he said that last time I relented and told him I was grateful
• K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
• I tell him again that I appreciate him and Ive never said he doesn't do anything for me
• K shouts that I must have selective memory and that he's the one who has to live with me never appreciating him enough, bangs fist on bed
• K says he's going to find a hotel room for the night and go out
• We sit in silence for a while, then I go up to him and ask if he's still angry, he shrugs, I say sorry that I made you upset, he says I'm sorry you were upset too, I offer to give him some space and go for a walk
K doesnt give it, reiterates nothing wrong with laughing at it
That is a red flag.
K says he's supporting me with going to the event, I'm acting ungrateful by fixating on this small thing and saying he doesn't care
That is a larger red flag
K says he shouldn't have to apologize/pander to my insecurity
That is a dump-able offense.
K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
Again- dump-able offense.
K shouts that I must have selective memory and that he's the one who has to live with me never appreciating him enough, bangs fist on bed
Violent action major red flag major dump-able offense.
And then you feel *you* have to leave the house to give *him* space? You're in danger. Leave now. Leave before you're married and you're legally entangled. Thank a deity of your choice you never married him and leave before you become a statistic. This will only get worse- and you have a right to not be laughed at and belittled and threatened.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:50 PM on May 24, 2019 [70 favorites]
That is a red flag.
K says he's supporting me with going to the event, I'm acting ungrateful by fixating on this small thing and saying he doesn't care
That is a larger red flag
K says he shouldn't have to apologize/pander to my insecurity
That is a dump-able offense.
K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
Again- dump-able offense.
K shouts that I must have selective memory and that he's the one who has to live with me never appreciating him enough, bangs fist on bed
Violent action major red flag major dump-able offense.
And then you feel *you* have to leave the house to give *him* space? You're in danger. Leave now. Leave before you're married and you're legally entangled. Thank a deity of your choice you never married him and leave before you become a statistic. This will only get worse- and you have a right to not be laughed at and belittled and threatened.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:50 PM on May 24, 2019 [70 favorites]
This could be fixable, maybe, but if he's not willing to do therapy or self-help, then what exactly is your boyfriend offering to do as his half of the work in fixing it?
posted by bethnull at 9:51 PM on May 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by bethnull at 9:51 PM on May 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
What are our communication issues and can they be fixed if my bf isn't interested in therapy?
If he doesn't want to work on it, then it can't be fixed.
posted by betweenthebars at 9:57 PM on May 24, 2019 [25 favorites]
If he doesn't want to work on it, then it can't be fixed.
posted by betweenthebars at 9:57 PM on May 24, 2019 [25 favorites]
Oh, to address your actual query about "whether there's an easy was of fixing them that doesn't involve therapy or self help stuff for my bf", the answer is no. There absolutely isn't an easy fix. There is no fix that doesn't involve either him working very, very hard to change the way he views and treats you, or you getting the hell out of there.
posted by bethnull at 9:58 PM on May 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by bethnull at 9:58 PM on May 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
Your instincts are correct that none of this is acceptable. The biggest problem here is that he doesn't respect you. Other issues include that he doesn't think he even should respect you and that he has no intention of changing. Although even if he said he was going to change or "work on stuff" I'd tell you not to believe him and get the hell out. Just get out of there. Take a day off work, wait til he's at work, gather up your stuff and never tell him where you went. You will be much better off.
posted by bleep at 10:21 PM on May 24, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:21 PM on May 24, 2019 [12 favorites]
Well I think in the later half it sounds like K was a jerkface but he alsosounds totally fed up. Honestly, I would totally balk at a partner trying to tell me what I could and couldn't find funny, and then demanding I apologize for the involuntary reaction of laughing at something I found funny. But this also largely depends on what aspect he laughed at, was he laughing at you directly as a humiliating mocking type thing or was he laughing at some other part of the event itself, because the first thing means he's probably not a nice person.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:24 PM on May 24, 2019 [29 favorites]
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:24 PM on May 24, 2019 [29 favorites]
This fight sounds very similar to the fights I had with my absolute worst ex. My life is so much better without him.
The only thing that could have possibly worked in my situation was whittling myself down even more and making myself as small as possible, with no needs or feelings, existing only as a reflection of him. I'm sure you understand that this is not actually a feasible option.
Take care of yourself.
posted by sockermom at 10:26 PM on May 24, 2019 [20 favorites]
The only thing that could have possibly worked in my situation was whittling myself down even more and making myself as small as possible, with no needs or feelings, existing only as a reflection of him. I'm sure you understand that this is not actually a feasible option.
Take care of yourself.
posted by sockermom at 10:26 PM on May 24, 2019 [20 favorites]
Your "communication issues" are that your boyfriend doesn't care about your feelings, and that's not OK.
posted by wintersweet at 10:33 PM on May 24, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 10:33 PM on May 24, 2019 [26 favorites]
I didn't mean to minimize that his reaction and escalation was out of line for sure, but kindly, your half sounds quite emotionally unhealthy, unstable and controlling. If you're looking for a "who's in the wrong" answer here, I don't think there is one, you both just seem particularly unsuited to dealing with each other's way of being.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:54 PM on May 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:54 PM on May 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your responses so far! I'm oscillating between believing I can talk him into working on this with me and that it's not possible. I asked him whether he wanted to talk about the fight later so we could solve the issues and he said he thought the only issue was with me not being grateful enough for everything he does for me. I said I was prepared to accept some responsibility for what happened anbd asked him if he thought he did anything wrong in the fight. He said no. Is there any point trying to show him/ make him understand?
posted by fantasticbotanical at 10:55 PM on May 24, 2019
posted by fantasticbotanical at 10:55 PM on May 24, 2019
You cannot singlehandedly “save” the relationship without any help from him. You can tie yourself in all kinds of knots trying to accommodate his feelings at the expense of your own, and he can continue demanding more of the same, but this pattern will only perpetuate itself. Your outpouring of effort will never magically reach some high-water mark and turn into a mutually-loving partnership.
posted by armeowda at 10:56 PM on May 24, 2019 [37 favorites]
posted by armeowda at 10:56 PM on May 24, 2019 [37 favorites]
Adding this: you can never make someone else understand anything they don’t want to understand.
posted by armeowda at 10:57 PM on May 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by armeowda at 10:57 PM on May 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
If your recount were a screenplay, I'd have K pegged as the designated arsehole by the third line and firmly established as such by the fifth.
posted by flabdablet at 10:58 PM on May 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:58 PM on May 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
A four-year relationship is a serious one, and so I don’t want to discount that - but the scene you are describing sounds truly awful, and I’m sorry you’ve been going through this on a monthly basis.
What are our communication issues and can they be fixed if my bf isn’t interested in therapy?
This account reads as if you’re doing all of the work and he’s doing none of it. The central communication issue seems to be that he doesn’t believe you’re being honest with him. If that fundamental trust is gone, it’s going to be extremely difficult to regain.
he thought the only issue was with me not being grateful enough for everything he does for me.
This is a trash response, and he is a garbage person.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:59 PM on May 24, 2019 [36 favorites]
What are our communication issues and can they be fixed if my bf isn’t interested in therapy?
This account reads as if you’re doing all of the work and he’s doing none of it. The central communication issue seems to be that he doesn’t believe you’re being honest with him. If that fundamental trust is gone, it’s going to be extremely difficult to regain.
he thought the only issue was with me not being grateful enough for everything he does for me.
This is a trash response, and he is a garbage person.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:59 PM on May 24, 2019 [36 favorites]
I asked him whether he wanted to talk about the fight later so we could solve the issues and he said he thought the only issue was with me not being grateful enough for everything he does for me.
This is the point where he finds out that the only issue is that he no longer has you in his life.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 PM on May 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
This is the point where he finds out that the only issue is that he no longer has you in his life.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 PM on May 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
It's also the point where it becomes obvious to you that you're better off without him, despite four years of gaslighting designed to persuade you otherwise.
posted by flabdablet at 11:02 PM on May 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:02 PM on May 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
You are a more developed human being than your boyfriend, and I doubt he will ever catch up.
I never caught up with my partner either, but I think the saving grace for her was that I appreciated her for her amazing qualities, and came to a better understanding of my own limitations in our relationship and outside it.
He needs to be able to take a searching look at himself and see how many opportunities to create a loving relationship he is sacrificing to empty self-justification and masculine posturing.
Therapy would be a good way to do that, but what worked for me was seeing the light in other people's faces when she walked into a room, and trying to understand how she did that.
posted by jamjam at 11:16 PM on May 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
I never caught up with my partner either, but I think the saving grace for her was that I appreciated her for her amazing qualities, and came to a better understanding of my own limitations in our relationship and outside it.
He needs to be able to take a searching look at himself and see how many opportunities to create a loving relationship he is sacrificing to empty self-justification and masculine posturing.
Therapy would be a good way to do that, but what worked for me was seeing the light in other people's faces when she walked into a room, and trying to understand how she did that.
posted by jamjam at 11:16 PM on May 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
If this man isn’t financially supporting you, I’m pretty sure he can be replaced with a vibratory and a Netflix subscription and you will not feel the lack. No. He cannot be fixed without wanting to be fixed. Give him his walking papers.
posted by corb at 11:34 PM on May 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:34 PM on May 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
You are not broken and in need of fixing
You are lovely and whole
He's a poop milkshake
He is not worthy of you
This behavior is appalling.
Either he doesn't want to be with you
(because he knows he is not worthy of you)
Or he is an emotional sadist.
The first step is to realize
You don't have to put up with this.
Good people don't treat people that way
Step out of that shadow
Love yourself like you should be loved.
One you know true love and respect
And how it feels to give it and to receive it
You will bathe and revel in it, the golden light.
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
You are lovely and whole
He's a poop milkshake
He is not worthy of you
This behavior is appalling.
Either he doesn't want to be with you
(because he knows he is not worthy of you)
Or he is an emotional sadist.
The first step is to realize
You don't have to put up with this.
Good people don't treat people that way
Step out of that shadow
Love yourself like you should be loved.
One you know true love and respect
And how it feels to give it and to receive it
You will bathe and revel in it, the golden light.
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
K says nothing wrong with laughing at it
This is only step 3 when it goes permanently off the rails. Everything else is pure dysfunction, working your ways further and further away from a resolution. He might be great for someone else, but he seems obviously not for you.
K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
By this point the peanut gallery starts speculating that the sex must be amazing. I'm not trying to make light of this, but I think that's just not something you say to someone you like without knowing how it will go over, and that he retreats to a hotel room underscores his lack of investment. He only wants you for part of his life, and the rest, when something inconvenient pops up, like your feelings, when he "just wants to relax," is just something he can summarily do without.
I tell him again that I appreciate him and Ive never said he doesn't do anything for me
Now he's got you apologizing for yourself, to which he responds with an insult.
posted by rhizome at 12:11 AM on May 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
This is only step 3 when it goes permanently off the rails. Everything else is pure dysfunction, working your ways further and further away from a resolution. He might be great for someone else, but he seems obviously not for you.
K tells me I'm overly sensitive and cry too much
By this point the peanut gallery starts speculating that the sex must be amazing. I'm not trying to make light of this, but I think that's just not something you say to someone you like without knowing how it will go over, and that he retreats to a hotel room underscores his lack of investment. He only wants you for part of his life, and the rest, when something inconvenient pops up, like your feelings, when he "just wants to relax," is just something he can summarily do without.
I tell him again that I appreciate him and Ive never said he doesn't do anything for me
Now he's got you apologizing for yourself, to which he responds with an insult.
posted by rhizome at 12:11 AM on May 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
As someone who sometimes expresses frustration physically, the punching the bed thing is... not that weird to me? (Paradoxically, I am easily freaked out by other people's expressions of anger and frustration. This is one of the reasons I prefer to live alone, to be all grarrrr in private, and have a more solid foundation to deal with others' grarrrr.)
But look, even though I don't think your boyfriend is about to punch you instead of the bed, it sounds as if he's gotten into a score-keeping mindset (or you've both gotten into a score-keeping mindset) regarding who appreciates whom more. That's crap, and you don't have to live like that. Do you think your boyfriend is amenable to hearing that? Or agreeing to make a real attempt to let go of past scorekeeping and start at the present, trying to consciously express appreciation even when it seems unnecessary? And if so, can you do the same?
The other aspect that seems to come out here is that he feels accused of not being sensitive enough and is defensive around that. I get this, really I do, and if I inadvertently tromp on a partner's emotional toes it can be hard to switch to "aw, sweetie, I'm sorry, I totally didn't mean it like that, I love you and think you're great" when I'm thinking "come on, don't you know by now that I'm not [insulting you|questioning your competence|whatever button I've hit]"... but it is worth it! Then after a quick moment of reassurance, the conversation can just continue and you don't have to have a meta-conversation or get stuck in those thought loops. Again, your boyfriend would have to be amenable to hearing that too, and trying it as a deliberate response even if it feels ridiculous. It can BE ridiculous! Hey, it can be totally over the top - might as well have a sense of humour about it.
If any of that is too much like telling him what to do, well, he's probably not going to change a thing.
posted by inexorably_forward at 12:13 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
But look, even though I don't think your boyfriend is about to punch you instead of the bed, it sounds as if he's gotten into a score-keeping mindset (or you've both gotten into a score-keeping mindset) regarding who appreciates whom more. That's crap, and you don't have to live like that. Do you think your boyfriend is amenable to hearing that? Or agreeing to make a real attempt to let go of past scorekeeping and start at the present, trying to consciously express appreciation even when it seems unnecessary? And if so, can you do the same?
The other aspect that seems to come out here is that he feels accused of not being sensitive enough and is defensive around that. I get this, really I do, and if I inadvertently tromp on a partner's emotional toes it can be hard to switch to "aw, sweetie, I'm sorry, I totally didn't mean it like that, I love you and think you're great" when I'm thinking "come on, don't you know by now that I'm not [insulting you|questioning your competence|whatever button I've hit]"... but it is worth it! Then after a quick moment of reassurance, the conversation can just continue and you don't have to have a meta-conversation or get stuck in those thought loops. Again, your boyfriend would have to be amenable to hearing that too, and trying it as a deliberate response even if it feels ridiculous. It can BE ridiculous! Hey, it can be totally over the top - might as well have a sense of humour about it.
If any of that is too much like telling him what to do, well, he's probably not going to change a thing.
posted by inexorably_forward at 12:13 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
In this fight his intentions may have been benign, but his impact was not. The fact that he cannot and will not acknowledge the negative impact he has on you and in fact tried to make it your fault (you're too sensitive) is classic gaslighting.
I'm oscillating between believing I can talk him into working on this with me and that it's not possible
You shouldn't have to talk someone you're in a relationship with into acknowledging and caring about your feelings.
posted by brookeb at 12:23 AM on May 25, 2019 [13 favorites]
I'm oscillating between believing I can talk him into working on this with me and that it's not possible
You shouldn't have to talk someone you're in a relationship with into acknowledging and caring about your feelings.
posted by brookeb at 12:23 AM on May 25, 2019 [13 favorites]
He doesn't like being told what to do, but he's very happy to tell you what feelings you're allowed to have. That says all you need to know about whether or not he views you as an equal partner in the relationship.
You are not telling him what to do when you ask him to consider your emotions. You are telling him what you need to feel loved and validated. When he dismisses that, it is painful.
It is fully his right to say no to your request, but it isn't an unreasonable one. You could surely work on your communication style, but that's a two way street, I wouldn't go down it if he won't come too.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:44 AM on May 25, 2019 [28 favorites]
You are not telling him what to do when you ask him to consider your emotions. You are telling him what you need to feel loved and validated. When he dismisses that, it is painful.
It is fully his right to say no to your request, but it isn't an unreasonable one. You could surely work on your communication style, but that's a two way street, I wouldn't go down it if he won't come too.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:44 AM on May 25, 2019 [28 favorites]
Uh, you know what’s missing?
The *issue you wanted to discuss or get reassurance on, the issue with which you walked into the room* has been utterly erased by this pointless meta dance. You have participated in erasing your own starting issue. Shut that shit down!
So, for starters don’t be derailed from talking about your issue.
He: smirks or laughs during your request,
You: pause and say something simple like ‘oh, you’re laughing. Huh, I don’t think it’s funny, but anyway, may I carry on?
He: do continue
You: continue
Or
He: oh I’m laughing because this whole thing is dumb!
You: oh dear, well you’re often really helpful, but maybe this is a thing I can figure out myself (go ask someone else, write in a journal, see therapist/ follow therapist suggestions AND note to yourself that your partner wasn’t prepared to talk about your issue)
Don’t sulk. Don’t stomp. Don’t litigate. Note it and then figure it out yourself. You don’t give the neg oxygen.
If this happens a lot, you have good information about the real support your partner thinks he’s giving you (in the iteration above, he comes across as a narc brat who negged you from the get go and set the scene for you guys to litigate the whole relationship and for him to threaten abandonment - a not unusual narc tactic) AND you have figured out how to be more resilient by checking in with yourself, your support crew in getting an issue you want resolved, resolved.
I think the erasure of your primary discussion object and your participation in the meta dance in this exchange suggests to me that you are used to this kind of erasure, and even that you aren’t that confident in making your original request for support from him. You obviously believe you have a right to explore your issues on some core level because you’re doing the work in therapy. So build on that.
No one can win the meta dance with a partner and have a secure relationship. Metadances end up with threats or enactments of abandonment. People like yourself with anxious formations find these so traumatising. And with repetition they are submission training mechanisms.
posted by honey-barbara at 1:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [31 favorites]
The *issue you wanted to discuss or get reassurance on, the issue with which you walked into the room* has been utterly erased by this pointless meta dance. You have participated in erasing your own starting issue. Shut that shit down!
So, for starters don’t be derailed from talking about your issue.
He: smirks or laughs during your request,
You: pause and say something simple like ‘oh, you’re laughing. Huh, I don’t think it’s funny, but anyway, may I carry on?
He: do continue
You: continue
Or
He: oh I’m laughing because this whole thing is dumb!
You: oh dear, well you’re often really helpful, but maybe this is a thing I can figure out myself (go ask someone else, write in a journal, see therapist/ follow therapist suggestions AND note to yourself that your partner wasn’t prepared to talk about your issue)
Don’t sulk. Don’t stomp. Don’t litigate. Note it and then figure it out yourself. You don’t give the neg oxygen.
If this happens a lot, you have good information about the real support your partner thinks he’s giving you (in the iteration above, he comes across as a narc brat who negged you from the get go and set the scene for you guys to litigate the whole relationship and for him to threaten abandonment - a not unusual narc tactic) AND you have figured out how to be more resilient by checking in with yourself, your support crew in getting an issue you want resolved, resolved.
I think the erasure of your primary discussion object and your participation in the meta dance in this exchange suggests to me that you are used to this kind of erasure, and even that you aren’t that confident in making your original request for support from him. You obviously believe you have a right to explore your issues on some core level because you’re doing the work in therapy. So build on that.
No one can win the meta dance with a partner and have a secure relationship. Metadances end up with threats or enactments of abandonment. People like yourself with anxious formations find these so traumatising. And with repetition they are submission training mechanisms.
posted by honey-barbara at 1:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [31 favorites]
I agree with everyone that this doesn't sound good, and even in the rosiest light it sounds like you're not a match that brings out the best in each other.
But as a general thing, and apart from the context of this relationship, I couldn't help noticing that your discussion of gratefulness seemed pretty circular. He says you're not grateful enough, you say you are, repeat. It seems to me that - again, this is outside the specific context of your relationship - a healthier discussion would involve finding out what gratitude/appreciation* looked like to him, and what it would take for him to feel appreciated; and finding out what gratitude/appreciation looked like to you, and how you thought you were communicating it. Then each of you considering the other's information, maybe sleeping on it and thinking about it at a less emotionally charged time, and deciding where the other's needs and actions fall on the spectrum between reasonable and abusive, and whether you actually want or feel able to meet the other's needs in the way they expressed. In your case, I'd also want to discuss at a less heated time whether he perceived an imbalance in the relationship in terms of what support you both provide for each other, and to find out whether the things you saw as support (for example the things you did the night before in response to his having a hard week) were received as such and recognized by him.
I'm not saying the above to make it sound like his behavior was fine and that the argument was your fault for not handling the situation better (I don't think it was). I am saying it as a general observation for situations where one person says "A!" and the other says "Not A!", and want to stress that it is important to evaluate how you really feel about the other person's reasoning and justifications, and about what they say they need from you. He might be entirely convinced he does emotional labor that isn't recognized and feel frustrated; you might legitimately feel that his expectations are out of line or that what it would take for him to feel sufficiently appreciated is not reasonable or is reasonable but not what you personally want to feel required to provide.
Finally, it sounds like the narrative in your relationship is that you're very sensitive, but I think it sounds like you're both very sensitive. He could have responded to your request to not make fun of something with an "oh okay, sorry"; instead he placed a lot of emotional weight on the issue, which is its own kind of sensitivity. In arguing that he feels you don't appreciate him, he's expressing a point of sensitivity. I wonder whether your asking him not just to not make fun of the event but to apologize hit a sensitive point for him. In short, you're both driven by emotions and sensitivity, and you have to both recognize that, and figure out to what extent each sensitivity is a useful reaction that lets you recognize when something is wrong and to what extent it's a badly-calibrated reaction that can lead each of you to unnecessarily feel hurt or to hurt others.
If he's not willing to do this work, to ask questions and think about things from your perspective (whether on your own or with a therapist) then I think it's not worth going on. If he is willing, and does it actively without you dragging him every step of the way, and you both see improvement, then it's still up to you to decide whether your mutual needs and styles are actually compatible.
*Gratitude and appreciation are similar but not the same. If his insistence on gratitude rather than appreciation was due to anything beyond an inept choice of words, I think that's a dangerous sign.
posted by trig at 2:33 AM on May 25, 2019 [14 favorites]
But as a general thing, and apart from the context of this relationship, I couldn't help noticing that your discussion of gratefulness seemed pretty circular. He says you're not grateful enough, you say you are, repeat. It seems to me that - again, this is outside the specific context of your relationship - a healthier discussion would involve finding out what gratitude/appreciation* looked like to him, and what it would take for him to feel appreciated; and finding out what gratitude/appreciation looked like to you, and how you thought you were communicating it. Then each of you considering the other's information, maybe sleeping on it and thinking about it at a less emotionally charged time, and deciding where the other's needs and actions fall on the spectrum between reasonable and abusive, and whether you actually want or feel able to meet the other's needs in the way they expressed. In your case, I'd also want to discuss at a less heated time whether he perceived an imbalance in the relationship in terms of what support you both provide for each other, and to find out whether the things you saw as support (for example the things you did the night before in response to his having a hard week) were received as such and recognized by him.
I'm not saying the above to make it sound like his behavior was fine and that the argument was your fault for not handling the situation better (I don't think it was). I am saying it as a general observation for situations where one person says "A!" and the other says "Not A!", and want to stress that it is important to evaluate how you really feel about the other person's reasoning and justifications, and about what they say they need from you. He might be entirely convinced he does emotional labor that isn't recognized and feel frustrated; you might legitimately feel that his expectations are out of line or that what it would take for him to feel sufficiently appreciated is not reasonable or is reasonable but not what you personally want to feel required to provide.
Finally, it sounds like the narrative in your relationship is that you're very sensitive, but I think it sounds like you're both very sensitive. He could have responded to your request to not make fun of something with an "oh okay, sorry"; instead he placed a lot of emotional weight on the issue, which is its own kind of sensitivity. In arguing that he feels you don't appreciate him, he's expressing a point of sensitivity. I wonder whether your asking him not just to not make fun of the event but to apologize hit a sensitive point for him. In short, you're both driven by emotions and sensitivity, and you have to both recognize that, and figure out to what extent each sensitivity is a useful reaction that lets you recognize when something is wrong and to what extent it's a badly-calibrated reaction that can lead each of you to unnecessarily feel hurt or to hurt others.
If he's not willing to do this work, to ask questions and think about things from your perspective (whether on your own or with a therapist) then I think it's not worth going on. If he is willing, and does it actively without you dragging him every step of the way, and you both see improvement, then it's still up to you to decide whether your mutual needs and styles are actually compatible.
*Gratitude and appreciation are similar but not the same. If his insistence on gratitude rather than appreciation was due to anything beyond an inept choice of words, I think that's a dangerous sign.
posted by trig at 2:33 AM on May 25, 2019 [14 favorites]
The talk of gratitude made my neck hairs stand on end. It sounded so familiar, in a bad way. I've been there. I got out and felt SO MUCH BETTER, pretty much instantly.
People who are telling you you are not grateful enough, are telling you that they are not grateful for what you are bringing to the table. They don't see the value in that. They only see the value in what they are doing for you.
Gratitude in a good relationship flows both ways. Both partners should be considering themselves lucky to have such a great partner.
You are not a helpless flea-ridden kitten that he took in off the street and kindly offered a home to. You are a human being who has a lot to offer.
You deserve to be with someone who sees the value in what you are offering. (That someone can also be you.)
It sounds like neither of you are happy and feeling appreciated. You are not feeling safe and welcome; he is not feeling like you appreciate him enough. Consider that. Breaking up with him would set both of you free.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:33 AM on May 25, 2019 [27 favorites]
People who are telling you you are not grateful enough, are telling you that they are not grateful for what you are bringing to the table. They don't see the value in that. They only see the value in what they are doing for you.
Gratitude in a good relationship flows both ways. Both partners should be considering themselves lucky to have such a great partner.
You are not a helpless flea-ridden kitten that he took in off the street and kindly offered a home to. You are a human being who has a lot to offer.
You deserve to be with someone who sees the value in what you are offering. (That someone can also be you.)
It sounds like neither of you are happy and feeling appreciated. You are not feeling safe and welcome; he is not feeling like you appreciate him enough. Consider that. Breaking up with him would set both of you free.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:33 AM on May 25, 2019 [27 favorites]
My bf is opposed to therapy and doesn't like people telling him what to do.
This is the point in your story at which I felt confident the answer was “leave.” That you foregrounded this makes me think he views conversations about your feelings as power struggles. You can’t work with someone like that.
posted by eirias at 2:51 AM on May 25, 2019 [30 favorites]
This is the point in your story at which I felt confident the answer was “leave.” That you foregrounded this makes me think he views conversations about your feelings as power struggles. You can’t work with someone like that.
posted by eirias at 2:51 AM on May 25, 2019 [30 favorites]
This is not about being ungrateful. You can acknowledge and appreciate the good things he brings to you your life and still conclude that it isn't enough. Maybe there's another person out there, for whom it would be, but that doesn't mean that you're too demanding, or that they'd be low-maintenance (they might just have more demands on him in other areas that he might find easier to meet). People just have different needs (or are willing to make different trade-offs), and he's not meeting your needs, bringing you into situation, where you have to make trade-offs than don't work for you. That doesn't necessarily make either of you a bad person, it just makes you potentially incompatible. Reasonable adults should be able to talk about that without getting defensive and resentful. And your boyfriend here sounds shockingly resentful to me. Whatever he does do for you, he's clearly doing it very grudgingly.
For what it's worth, what your bf offers would not be enough for me. When I step on someone's toes, I never have any malicious intent. But I understand whatever is or isn't in my heart doesn't make that person's toe hurt less and that at very least, I could have paid a bit more attention where I'm going. So I apologize. That too, might not be enough. I'm often absent-minded, I often have my head in the clouds, I can 't really imagine a life with my eyes glued to the ground, so I can't promise I will never step on toes again, and even though I'm working on becoming more considerate, my standards for "being present in the relationship" might be simply lower than the other person's, so even if I think I'm making progress, it might still be too little and it's quite possible that it will be better for both of us to stay out of each others way in that case. But one can come to that conclusion without dismissing the other person's pain.
I think I've generally more in common with your boyfriend than you - I can relate to feeling overwhelmed by another person's needs in a relationship, and not wanting to promise too much and trying to generally manage expectations, but I've made peace with the fact that whatever I do have to offer is not quite enough for a lot of people. And at this point in my life, I have no patience at all any more for people whose first reaction to some else's expression of pain is to make sure that they don't catch any blame.
posted by sohalt at 3:22 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, what your bf offers would not be enough for me. When I step on someone's toes, I never have any malicious intent. But I understand whatever is or isn't in my heart doesn't make that person's toe hurt less and that at very least, I could have paid a bit more attention where I'm going. So I apologize. That too, might not be enough. I'm often absent-minded, I often have my head in the clouds, I can 't really imagine a life with my eyes glued to the ground, so I can't promise I will never step on toes again, and even though I'm working on becoming more considerate, my standards for "being present in the relationship" might be simply lower than the other person's, so even if I think I'm making progress, it might still be too little and it's quite possible that it will be better for both of us to stay out of each others way in that case. But one can come to that conclusion without dismissing the other person's pain.
I think I've generally more in common with your boyfriend than you - I can relate to feeling overwhelmed by another person's needs in a relationship, and not wanting to promise too much and trying to generally manage expectations, but I've made peace with the fact that whatever I do have to offer is not quite enough for a lot of people. And at this point in my life, I have no patience at all any more for people whose first reaction to some else's expression of pain is to make sure that they don't catch any blame.
posted by sohalt at 3:22 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I just want to share a story that came to mind as I read your question. I was once briefly acquainted with a man who would rant to anyone who would listen about how both his exes were “crazy bitches.” Then he met someone new. A friend asked him how the new relationship was going. “Fantastic!” He said, “she’s very grateful.” The hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I later learned from a family member of his that he had beat each of the two exes while he was with them.
I don’t share this story to say that your boyfriend is going to beat you. I share it to show how creepy centering the concept of gratitude in a romantic relationship is. Your question is about how to communicate better. Like others have said you can’t fix it alone. But if you want to try, I would suggest finding a time you are not already fighting to talk about the over all dynamic that’s developed between you. Zoom out from the mechanics of the individual fights to the mechanics of the relationship as a whole. What is it like when you are not fighting? What is it like when you are? What are the patterns of when the fights happen? What are the patterns of how you return to normalcy after a fight? How do each of you see your roles in the relationship? Does he see himself as your caretaker? Do you see him as your only support? Can you both have a conversation not about who is wrong but what is wrong in the relationship dynamic? If he won’t participate in this conversation or reverts to a blame game this isn’t fixable because he doesn’t want to fix it.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:50 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I don’t share this story to say that your boyfriend is going to beat you. I share it to show how creepy centering the concept of gratitude in a romantic relationship is. Your question is about how to communicate better. Like others have said you can’t fix it alone. But if you want to try, I would suggest finding a time you are not already fighting to talk about the over all dynamic that’s developed between you. Zoom out from the mechanics of the individual fights to the mechanics of the relationship as a whole. What is it like when you are not fighting? What is it like when you are? What are the patterns of when the fights happen? What are the patterns of how you return to normalcy after a fight? How do each of you see your roles in the relationship? Does he see himself as your caretaker? Do you see him as your only support? Can you both have a conversation not about who is wrong but what is wrong in the relationship dynamic? If he won’t participate in this conversation or reverts to a blame game this isn’t fixable because he doesn’t want to fix it.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:50 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I want to point out, too, that I might chuckle at a part of an upsetting story my partner is telling me, maybe because that part seems irrelevant to me, or b/c I think he'd agree and chuckle with me.
And then when he said "could you not laugh at that? I'm really stressed and that hurts my feelings," my response would be, "Oh, god, I'm sorry. It just seemed really silly. But I'm not laughing at you. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." (With an unspoken "even by accident" on the end there because you apologize when you hurt someone, even by accident.)
So yeah, his doubling down on whether his amusement is more important than your hurt is not okay, and everything after that is manipulative and cruel. He's made it very clear that he doesn't WANT to give you what you need (which is not unreasonable). What he wants is for you to not need anything but what he's giving.
So it's time for you to go. I'm sorry.
posted by gideonfrog at 5:13 AM on May 25, 2019 [26 favorites]
And then when he said "could you not laugh at that? I'm really stressed and that hurts my feelings," my response would be, "Oh, god, I'm sorry. It just seemed really silly. But I'm not laughing at you. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." (With an unspoken "even by accident" on the end there because you apologize when you hurt someone, even by accident.)
So yeah, his doubling down on whether his amusement is more important than your hurt is not okay, and everything after that is manipulative and cruel. He's made it very clear that he doesn't WANT to give you what you need (which is not unreasonable). What he wants is for you to not need anything but what he's giving.
So it's time for you to go. I'm sorry.
posted by gideonfrog at 5:13 AM on May 25, 2019 [26 favorites]
You both sound exhausted. He is tired of spending so much time having these circular discussions about sensitivities in the relationship. You are tired of being with someone who treats you as exhausting, someone to be managed, someone who’s weak and ridiculous. I think your different personalities are incompatible. For some people your boyfriend laughing at that event would be no issue, but after four years together your boyfriend should know that you’re going to be hurt by it—this makes it seems like he pays hardly any attention to you. If he doesn’t want to be with someone who’s sensitive, he should leave rather than staying and going out of his way to make you hurt. That makes it seem like he gets something he likes from this dynamic of you constantly chasing after to soothe him, which is a really big red flag. Break up.
I would also work on your own resiliency. If you want to go to an event, embrace your own wishes and desires! Who cares if someone laughs about it? You want to go, you are able to go, so you will.
posted by sallybrown at 5:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [21 favorites]
I would also work on your own resiliency. If you want to go to an event, embrace your own wishes and desires! Who cares if someone laughs about it? You want to go, you are able to go, so you will.
posted by sallybrown at 5:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [21 favorites]
Like everyone has noted above, this is an awful and destructive relationship dynamic.
I don’t see a way for things to improve in your relationship without therapy and serious work being done both together and separately. Your boyfriend is opposed to therapy and to working with you. Sadly, this means things aren’t going to improve.
You don’t deserve this and you would both benefit from going your separate ways. Breaking up may be incredibly painful, but I speak from experience: you will feel so much relief when it’s over and done.
posted by Tiny Bungalow at 5:38 AM on May 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don’t see a way for things to improve in your relationship without therapy and serious work being done both together and separately. Your boyfriend is opposed to therapy and to working with you. Sadly, this means things aren’t going to improve.
You don’t deserve this and you would both benefit from going your separate ways. Breaking up may be incredibly painful, but I speak from experience: you will feel so much relief when it’s over and done.
posted by Tiny Bungalow at 5:38 AM on May 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I haven't read all the responses, but the ones I saw focussed on his not respecting your feelings. That's a huge issue, yes, but what jumped out at me, even before your additional post was that I was very creeped out by this idea that you should be grateful. This is very yucky. I mean, yes, we should all be grateful for supportive people in our lives, sure, but there something about his repeatedly telling you that you should be grateful that smacks of "because you're not entitled to a supportive partner, and by my magnanimous grace, you have one, so you should just be grateful because if it weren't for me you'd have nothing"
It sounds like he's been manipulating you for years to make you believe these things, but they are not true. A) You don't have a supportive partner, B) You are entitled to one and C) "without me you would be nothing" is classic abuser gaslighting.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:39 AM on May 25, 2019 [23 favorites]
It sounds like he's been manipulating you for years to make you believe these things, but they are not true. A) You don't have a supportive partner, B) You are entitled to one and C) "without me you would be nothing" is classic abuser gaslighting.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:39 AM on May 25, 2019 [23 favorites]
Your boyfriend is an asshole and you deserve better. Fucking dump him.
posted by a strong female character at 6:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 6:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
This conversation went from your "I'm nervous" to his "I'm leaving" in short order. Are you OK with having your vulnerability poked with an increasingly sharp stick every time you display it? Because this is not the pattern of a healthy relationship.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:07 AM on May 25, 2019 [12 favorites]
”he says not with you”
Believe him when he tells you.
I mean, he’s not going to dump you while you are still taking care of him and no one else is lined up to do so, but his mentality here is “not with you”.
posted by Iteki at 7:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
Believe him when he tells you.
I mean, he’s not going to dump you while you are still taking care of him and no one else is lined up to do so, but his mentality here is “not with you”.
posted by Iteki at 7:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
I think it sounds like not a great match. I will say, however, that your boyfriend doesn't sound (to me) like the monster everyone else is getting from your question.
It sounds like he is incredibly frustrated dealing with someone who's view of the world is so incredibly different than his own. See the thing is- no one can or should deal with every probalem you have to deal with. We all have issues. Some we share with our parnters and some we don't. It sound like you are sharing ALL of it with him and he kind of snapped.
So once I was in a waiting room at a dentist office and I was with my mom and incredibly freaked out (dental phobia). I couldn't stop going on and on about how scared I was. Anyways my mom turns to me and says, "I get you are scared, and I'm here for you but that doesn't mean I have to be as upset/unhappy as you are. Sometimes you have to deal with your emotions on your own." Anyways, it made a lot of sense to me and changed how I deal with my anxiety.
I still ask for support, but I don't expect other people to have to feel what I feel. Maybe give this a go on your relationship and see if it changes things.
posted by KMoney at 7:26 AM on May 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
It sounds like he is incredibly frustrated dealing with someone who's view of the world is so incredibly different than his own. See the thing is- no one can or should deal with every probalem you have to deal with. We all have issues. Some we share with our parnters and some we don't. It sound like you are sharing ALL of it with him and he kind of snapped.
So once I was in a waiting room at a dentist office and I was with my mom and incredibly freaked out (dental phobia). I couldn't stop going on and on about how scared I was. Anyways my mom turns to me and says, "I get you are scared, and I'm here for you but that doesn't mean I have to be as upset/unhappy as you are. Sometimes you have to deal with your emotions on your own." Anyways, it made a lot of sense to me and changed how I deal with my anxiety.
I still ask for support, but I don't expect other people to have to feel what I feel. Maybe give this a go on your relationship and see if it changes things.
posted by KMoney at 7:26 AM on May 25, 2019 [11 favorites]
You're dating my ex, aren't you. Sorry he hasn't changed. I get how much it stinks when you've put so much time and energy and love into something and your SO acts like an unrepentant asshole.
Ignoring your feelings, mocking your feelings, doing that obnoxious "but what about MEEEEEEE" change of subject so you feel like you've been a terrible partner (and you never actually get around to discussing your thing--it's evil), shutting down and sulking (as all toddlers do), then the piece de resistance...
K says he's going to find a hotel room for the night and go out.
Because that'll show you. He's gonna leave and have fun! Because that's what grownups do!! /s
My friend, I lived through this for years. YEARS. It does not get better. He does not want to change. You cannot change him.
All you can do is DTMFA. Sorry (but not sorry because once you're free you'll see what a manipulative piece of shit he is.)
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:28 AM on May 25, 2019 [13 favorites]
Ignoring your feelings, mocking your feelings, doing that obnoxious "but what about MEEEEEEE" change of subject so you feel like you've been a terrible partner (and you never actually get around to discussing your thing--it's evil), shutting down and sulking (as all toddlers do), then the piece de resistance...
K says he's going to find a hotel room for the night and go out.
Because that'll show you. He's gonna leave and have fun! Because that's what grownups do!! /s
My friend, I lived through this for years. YEARS. It does not get better. He does not want to change. You cannot change him.
All you can do is DTMFA. Sorry (but not sorry because once you're free you'll see what a manipulative piece of shit he is.)
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:28 AM on May 25, 2019 [13 favorites]
I think both of you sound like you’re done with this relationship. I think you need someone who’s much more reflective of the kind of emotional sensitivity that you have, and that your BF needs someone who is much more resilient and who doesn’t escalate minor issues the way that you did. Frankly, I fall much more on K’s side of things—I wouldn’t be able to tolerate a partner who needed so much emotional support, and who cried and accused me of being hurtful if I didn’t give it. *That* is a huge red flag to ME. K is not your therapist.
Break up. Neither of you are getting what you need out of this relationship, and if K is at the point of preferring to be in a hotel room over spending another minute with you in the same room, all you have left is to stick it with a fork, because it’s done. Finish it. You will both feel better in the end.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:10 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
Break up. Neither of you are getting what you need out of this relationship, and if K is at the point of preferring to be in a hotel room over spending another minute with you in the same room, all you have left is to stick it with a fork, because it’s done. Finish it. You will both feel better in the end.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:10 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think the reason that a lot of people are not giving any leeway to your boyfriend here is that we see something very recognizable. I will echo another poster who said that the hairs on the back of her neck stood up when she saw the bit about gratitude. I actually asked a question here about my terrible ex-boyfriend after an argument we had where he claimed that I wasn't "appreciative" enough of him. What I didn't include in the question was that in that argument he committed some physical violence against me, the details of which are immaterial here and also pretty unspeakable. And even now when I'm reading my old question it doesn't set my spidey sense off, but it certainly set off the spidey sense of a lot of commenters. They saw something in the subtext that was absolutely there.
I think that a lot of us are seeing the same thing in the subtext of your question. There's a collection of behaviors that are pretty standard in abusive relationships. The weird insistence on appreciation or gratitude creates or enforces a dynamic where he is great and unfailable, and you are crawling around on the floor around him thanking him for the crumbs that he drops. Telling you that you have a selective memory, storming off to a hotel, punching the bed, refusing to admit that he could possibly be wrong, I can go on. But this is not a good or healthy dynamic. It's a very very familiar dynamic to me.
I'm grateful that Metafilter was very real with me and their responses to my question. Within four months, I had finally actually left that guy. We had been together for years. But his anger was more frequent, and episodes of violence had ramped up. The violence definitely got worse before I left. I wish I had left when all he had been doing was yelling at me about not being good enough and punching holes in the wall, but that ship had sailed almost a year before I posted that question.
I'm not saying that this guy is definitely going to become violent against you or anything, but I would also say that things are already very, very bad and they don't have to get worse to justify walking away. Your life is short and precious. You only have so much time here. Why spend it with someone who makes you feel miserable about yourself? Even if sometimes they make you feel good about yourself, that cannot balance out or negate this kind of thing. These kind of arguments wear away at the fabric of your being. They are not good. And no matter how great he is, he is simply not worth it. No one is worth cutting yourself down and making yourself as small as possible in order for them to love you.
Take care of yourself and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [30 favorites]
I think that a lot of us are seeing the same thing in the subtext of your question. There's a collection of behaviors that are pretty standard in abusive relationships. The weird insistence on appreciation or gratitude creates or enforces a dynamic where he is great and unfailable, and you are crawling around on the floor around him thanking him for the crumbs that he drops. Telling you that you have a selective memory, storming off to a hotel, punching the bed, refusing to admit that he could possibly be wrong, I can go on. But this is not a good or healthy dynamic. It's a very very familiar dynamic to me.
I'm grateful that Metafilter was very real with me and their responses to my question. Within four months, I had finally actually left that guy. We had been together for years. But his anger was more frequent, and episodes of violence had ramped up. The violence definitely got worse before I left. I wish I had left when all he had been doing was yelling at me about not being good enough and punching holes in the wall, but that ship had sailed almost a year before I posted that question.
I'm not saying that this guy is definitely going to become violent against you or anything, but I would also say that things are already very, very bad and they don't have to get worse to justify walking away. Your life is short and precious. You only have so much time here. Why spend it with someone who makes you feel miserable about yourself? Even if sometimes they make you feel good about yourself, that cannot balance out or negate this kind of thing. These kind of arguments wear away at the fabric of your being. They are not good. And no matter how great he is, he is simply not worth it. No one is worth cutting yourself down and making yourself as small as possible in order for them to love you.
Take care of yourself and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:18 AM on May 25, 2019 [30 favorites]
He might be a monster or maybe you're really hard to deal with; we don't know, you've given us very little context for what is actually being discussed here.
Thing is, it doesn't matter. YOU think he's awful. He, apparently, thinks you're awful. Why on earth would you stay? What's there to "work" on?
Therapy isn't magic: it can help provide tools to aid cooperation and communication, but it can't make you respect or love each other.
You're done, sounds like he's done, and that's ok! All relationships come to an end at some point. Some small % of them last until death comes at the end of a long life together. Realistically, do you think this guy is the one you'll be happy with forever? No, right? Get this over with.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:21 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
Thing is, it doesn't matter. YOU think he's awful. He, apparently, thinks you're awful. Why on earth would you stay? What's there to "work" on?
Therapy isn't magic: it can help provide tools to aid cooperation and communication, but it can't make you respect or love each other.
You're done, sounds like he's done, and that's ok! All relationships come to an end at some point. Some small % of them last until death comes at the end of a long life together. Realistically, do you think this guy is the one you'll be happy with forever? No, right? Get this over with.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:21 AM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
whether there's an easy was of fixing them that doesn't involve therapy or self help stuff for my bf.
So in other words, is there a way of fixing them that he doesn't have to participate in? The only two kinds of help are other-person help (therapy) and self-help.
I mean there's also "giving a shit about your partner as a human being" but it sounds like that also is not really his jam, so that won't be "easy" for him.
He wants to do as little as possible in terms of support, emotional work, etc., and you're supposed to be sooooooo grateful? What a douchecanoe.
(Also I think that any man who "is opposed to therapy" and "doesn't like to be told what to do" needs to be dumped just on principle. Most women, too, but I allow that women as a gender have a lot more baggage around therapy and being ordered around than men.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:52 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
So in other words, is there a way of fixing them that he doesn't have to participate in? The only two kinds of help are other-person help (therapy) and self-help.
I mean there's also "giving a shit about your partner as a human being" but it sounds like that also is not really his jam, so that won't be "easy" for him.
He wants to do as little as possible in terms of support, emotional work, etc., and you're supposed to be sooooooo grateful? What a douchecanoe.
(Also I think that any man who "is opposed to therapy" and "doesn't like to be told what to do" needs to be dumped just on principle. Most women, too, but I allow that women as a gender have a lot more baggage around therapy and being ordered around than men.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:52 AM on May 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think that a lot of us are seeing the same thing in the subtext of your question. There's a collection of behaviors that are pretty standard in abusive relationships. The weird insistence on appreciation or gratitude creates or enforces a dynamic where he is great and unfailable, and you are crawling around on the floor around him thanking him for the crumbs that he drops.
Abusive relationships also create pretty standard behaviors in the abused person, like hypervigilance, that often come across to outsiders (and the abuser) as being "overly sensitive" or "needy," and because the abused person has been conditioned to take responsibility for 100% of the relationship dysfunction, those accusations are another way to shift blame and make it all the abused person's fault.
posted by lazuli at 8:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [19 favorites]
Abusive relationships also create pretty standard behaviors in the abused person, like hypervigilance, that often come across to outsiders (and the abuser) as being "overly sensitive" or "needy," and because the abused person has been conditioned to take responsibility for 100% of the relationship dysfunction, those accusations are another way to shift blame and make it all the abused person's fault.
posted by lazuli at 8:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [19 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted; first if you've made your point please just leave it at that; second if you're talking about OP in third person that's a sign you're having a back-and-forth discussion with other commenters instead of answering OP's question.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on May 25, 2019
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on May 25, 2019
Side note: people who never admit their wrong-doings = huge red flag in my book. In any context. We're humans, we make mistakes. But we can never learn from our mistakes and grow as a person if we think we're entirely infallible to begin with. There is nowhere to grow from there. Those people will always shift the blame to others - and they genuinely believe that. After all, they are they did nothing wrong (ha!).
Do yourself a favor a get out. He sees this as entirely your fault while he's 100% blame-free. The mental energy needed to accept that ridiculously incorrect premise will eat you up. Not to mention the self-esteem costs of blaming yourself are much too high to pay for him.
Think about the flipside: Would he do the same for you? Would he be the one to apologize and feel guilty because you felt like there should be no consequences to upsetting him and that he's ridiculous ungrateful? Would he go to ask metafilter seeking advice to try to salvage your relationship?
Or would he wait until you took all the blame for all your relationship problems?
The longer you stay, the harder it is to get out.
posted by Neekee at 10:21 AM on May 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Do yourself a favor a get out. He sees this as entirely your fault while he's 100% blame-free. The mental energy needed to accept that ridiculously incorrect premise will eat you up. Not to mention the self-esteem costs of blaming yourself are much too high to pay for him.
Think about the flipside: Would he do the same for you? Would he be the one to apologize and feel guilty because you felt like there should be no consequences to upsetting him and that he's ridiculous ungrateful? Would he go to ask metafilter seeking advice to try to salvage your relationship?
Or would he wait until you took all the blame for all your relationship problems?
The longer you stay, the harder it is to get out.
posted by Neekee at 10:21 AM on May 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think you two are done. I've been in relationships with a similar dynamic. One partner develops something like compassion fatigue, which if they're emotionally immature is expressed with contemptuous and assholish behavior. The other partner senses this and becomes anxious and picks fights, constantly wants to talk about the relationship, tries to get affection by displaying hurt feelings, and that all just enrages the other partner. In my experience, once you've reached this point there's no going back and staying is harmful for everyone.
Move on, heal, and find someone more compatible with your sensitive disposition.
posted by Feminazgul at 10:31 AM on May 25, 2019 [15 favorites]
Move on, heal, and find someone more compatible with your sensitive disposition.
posted by Feminazgul at 10:31 AM on May 25, 2019 [15 favorites]
Just MHO: I think you should focus on patterns versus individual incidents. You’ve been together for 4 years - but in the last 3 months you’ve had 3 arguments of the nature you detail above? What kinds of arguments did you have during the preceding 45 months? Did something in your lives change in the past 3 months that bring this to the forefront now?
No specific advice except try to consider the entire 4 year relationship as objectively as possible. I’m not a fan of couples therapy, but it might help in this situation.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
No specific advice except try to consider the entire 4 year relationship as objectively as possible. I’m not a fan of couples therapy, but it might help in this situation.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm oscillating between believing I can talk him into working on this with me and that it's not possible
The ONLY answer is "it's not possible." You can suggest he work on it with you, but it's only ever a suggestion, and if he does it it's because he decides to do it.
This is a really important mindset to have because it frees you up from thinking that if you say the exact right thing at the exact right time you will get the result you want.
What if what he says is true? He doesn't think he did anything wrong, he doesn't want to change it, he doesn't want to work on it. Can you live with that?
posted by selfmedicating at 11:01 AM on May 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
The ONLY answer is "it's not possible." You can suggest he work on it with you, but it's only ever a suggestion, and if he does it it's because he decides to do it.
This is a really important mindset to have because it frees you up from thinking that if you say the exact right thing at the exact right time you will get the result you want.
What if what he says is true? He doesn't think he did anything wrong, he doesn't want to change it, he doesn't want to work on it. Can you live with that?
posted by selfmedicating at 11:01 AM on May 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
K says I always act like he doesn't do anything for me, says he has helped me with so much stuff that it's impacted his own mental health in the past and athough I act appreciative when he helps me or straight after I forget about it in between
One more thing: Is it possible by this statement, and by "grateful" he means, "I have done a lot to show you that I love you and support you, and yet you continue to act like you don't believe it"? This can be extremely hurtful and exhausting for someone to deal with. They go out of their way to help their partner, and then before they know it, a small misunderstanding is now another argument on whether or not they love their partner. All the sacrifices they have made, all the energy they have devoted to caring for their partner once again seems to now mean nothing. I have been the person needing constant reassurance before and didn't realize how damaging it was until I was on the other side of it.
posted by Feminazgul at 11:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [8 favorites]
One more thing: Is it possible by this statement, and by "grateful" he means, "I have done a lot to show you that I love you and support you, and yet you continue to act like you don't believe it"? This can be extremely hurtful and exhausting for someone to deal with. They go out of their way to help their partner, and then before they know it, a small misunderstanding is now another argument on whether or not they love their partner. All the sacrifices they have made, all the energy they have devoted to caring for their partner once again seems to now mean nothing. I have been the person needing constant reassurance before and didn't realize how damaging it was until I was on the other side of it.
posted by Feminazgul at 11:59 AM on May 25, 2019 [8 favorites]
I would say no, it's not possible, not because it's impossible, but because you want to solve it by the same methods that are causing it.
Here's my take on the solution:
Someone mentioned compassion fatigue. That's relevant! I'm also going to take a middle ground and assume dysfunction is at play, not abuser vs. abusee. Disclaimer: I could be very wrong.
You appear to need a large amount of emotional support/hand holding. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that. But the way you're going about it appears to be having your boyfriend sit down and talk it though with you like a cbt therpiast would. He doesn't appear to have those impartial skills, or at least he isn't capable of providing them at all times, and shouldn't be expected to. Instead this time, he's finding it draining and mentally/emotionally exhausting. He's not getting anything out of it. He's not benefiting from it. Maybe even he's not getting support back from you in the ways he finds beneficial, so he's calling you ungrateful. He just as easily could be abusive, but sometimes peoples reactions to abuse or dysfunction look the same as abuse, and sometimes peoples maladaptive coping mechanisms look the same as giving or receiving abuse.
If you're familiar with Gottmans work, and I highly recommend it, then these things would be called "bids" in a relationship. If he's doing this supporting role for you 2/3 of the time, he's doing enough and he's doing his part. The other 1/ 3 of the time you either need to manange it yourself or find support elsewhere. If you want it 100%, he's going to feel controlled and resent will develop.
Also, support in a relationship should ideally not be one sided, even if you are both doing your part to meet the 2/3. There are ways to request and provide support to your partner that benefit both people at once. The primary roles should be defined as partners. There should not be an imbalance present with other roles predominating, such as support person and supported person. You're not acting as a partner when you're approaching an issue as me vs. him, or who is right and who is wrong.
Another point could be that compatible senses of humor are often overlooked as being important. They really are because they cant really be changed. If his sense of humor is consistently hurting you, then this might be a compatibility issue.
In this scenario, you are feeling anxious and he is feeling spent from a long week. You both likely don't have a lot to expend for each other at this point. What are some other ways that you could both give and recieve support and comfort that would be mutually beneficial? This is where dbt becomes useful. With dbt you can learn endless ways to self soothe, many of which can also be done with or to another person. In this scenario, both of you would have likely benefited from something that was distracting, comforting, or stress relieving. Maybe instead of a talk, you could have gone for a walk together, cuddled, gave each other back rubs, have sex, watch a funny movie etc.
There is also maybe an issue of catastrophisizing, focusing on the details instead of the bigger picture, or choosing your battles here. At this point, he appears to want to drop the arguement and move on. Considering that the actual arguement was over something quite small, and likely largely due to the above, I don't personally see any benefit for either of you to continue pressing on with it and making it into a full couples therapy worthy thing.
You're also trying to solve the problem backwards: looking at the end result as the issue to solve, and not the catalyst to it, or the overall patterns and dynamic of the entire relationship.
No one here can figure out a 4 year relationship from a single incident.
What you have going on here with the replies, is people who've been abused red flagging his behavior, people who've been in dysfunction where there isn't a designated abuser and abusee saying this isn't good, and people who've been in relationships with others who have unmanaged mental health issues like bpd who are red flagging your behaviour. All points are equally valid here... and all advice could easily and equally be either helpful or harmful if applied to the incorrect one.
You say you're in individual therapy. Are you making progress there? Sometimes what can happen is that when one person starts to change, and tries out new things they've learned, it upsets the established dynamic and the result can look much like this type of chaos.
You really do need a third party to get a full picture of the overall dynamic and figure out what exactly is going on here if your choice is to stay together.
posted by OnefortheLast at 2:01 PM on May 25, 2019 [8 favorites]
Here's my take on the solution:
Someone mentioned compassion fatigue. That's relevant! I'm also going to take a middle ground and assume dysfunction is at play, not abuser vs. abusee. Disclaimer: I could be very wrong.
You appear to need a large amount of emotional support/hand holding. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that. But the way you're going about it appears to be having your boyfriend sit down and talk it though with you like a cbt therpiast would. He doesn't appear to have those impartial skills, or at least he isn't capable of providing them at all times, and shouldn't be expected to. Instead this time, he's finding it draining and mentally/emotionally exhausting. He's not getting anything out of it. He's not benefiting from it. Maybe even he's not getting support back from you in the ways he finds beneficial, so he's calling you ungrateful. He just as easily could be abusive, but sometimes peoples reactions to abuse or dysfunction look the same as abuse, and sometimes peoples maladaptive coping mechanisms look the same as giving or receiving abuse.
If you're familiar with Gottmans work, and I highly recommend it, then these things would be called "bids" in a relationship. If he's doing this supporting role for you 2/3 of the time, he's doing enough and he's doing his part. The other 1/ 3 of the time you either need to manange it yourself or find support elsewhere. If you want it 100%, he's going to feel controlled and resent will develop.
Also, support in a relationship should ideally not be one sided, even if you are both doing your part to meet the 2/3. There are ways to request and provide support to your partner that benefit both people at once. The primary roles should be defined as partners. There should not be an imbalance present with other roles predominating, such as support person and supported person. You're not acting as a partner when you're approaching an issue as me vs. him, or who is right and who is wrong.
Another point could be that compatible senses of humor are often overlooked as being important. They really are because they cant really be changed. If his sense of humor is consistently hurting you, then this might be a compatibility issue.
In this scenario, you are feeling anxious and he is feeling spent from a long week. You both likely don't have a lot to expend for each other at this point. What are some other ways that you could both give and recieve support and comfort that would be mutually beneficial? This is where dbt becomes useful. With dbt you can learn endless ways to self soothe, many of which can also be done with or to another person. In this scenario, both of you would have likely benefited from something that was distracting, comforting, or stress relieving. Maybe instead of a talk, you could have gone for a walk together, cuddled, gave each other back rubs, have sex, watch a funny movie etc.
There is also maybe an issue of catastrophisizing, focusing on the details instead of the bigger picture, or choosing your battles here. At this point, he appears to want to drop the arguement and move on. Considering that the actual arguement was over something quite small, and likely largely due to the above, I don't personally see any benefit for either of you to continue pressing on with it and making it into a full couples therapy worthy thing.
You're also trying to solve the problem backwards: looking at the end result as the issue to solve, and not the catalyst to it, or the overall patterns and dynamic of the entire relationship.
No one here can figure out a 4 year relationship from a single incident.
What you have going on here with the replies, is people who've been abused red flagging his behavior, people who've been in dysfunction where there isn't a designated abuser and abusee saying this isn't good, and people who've been in relationships with others who have unmanaged mental health issues like bpd who are red flagging your behaviour. All points are equally valid here... and all advice could easily and equally be either helpful or harmful if applied to the incorrect one.
You say you're in individual therapy. Are you making progress there? Sometimes what can happen is that when one person starts to change, and tries out new things they've learned, it upsets the established dynamic and the result can look much like this type of chaos.
You really do need a third party to get a full picture of the overall dynamic and figure out what exactly is going on here if your choice is to stay together.
posted by OnefortheLast at 2:01 PM on May 25, 2019 [8 favorites]
whether there's an easy was of fixing them that doesn't involve therapy or self help stuff for my bf.
Hi, fantasticbotanical, one question ago you told us that your boyfriend had been verbally abusive in the past & slutshamed you, then things got better, then you moved to be with him, which triggered a loneliness-induced depression. At the time, you asked for his support, which he only grudgingly offered only to then turn around and resent you for making him lose his friends (!?) and AT THE SAME TIME, go on and on about how you have to be grateful for his support and how it was OK that he was shit—talking your friends, because after all you were to be blamed for his own social issues.
So now it’s three months later and he uses your vulnerability to laugh at you, refuses to apologize and blames you for having feelings and manages to completely sideline your initial issue & his own lack of sensitivity by, again, attacking you. BTW, is the support you are supposed to be grateful for him reluctantly hanging around at home rather than watching footie with his mates? Seeing as how you were depressed because you had left everything behind to be with him?
My advice: read through (most of) the answers to your other question – they still apply.
Also, if I were you, I might mention to my therapist that you have a dynamics going on with your boyfriend which is quite similar to the one you used to have with your belitteling mother – she scorned & criticized, you appeased and made amends.
I have faith that you will see your boyfriend for the immature & abusive a-hole he is in this relationship, and that you can break away from him – after all, you managed that with your mum.
Also, god save us from people who think that expecting your partner to not be entirely insensitive about your vulnerabilities is ‘controlling’ or involves ‘compassion fatigue’.
posted by doggod at 4:35 PM on May 25, 2019 [21 favorites]
Hi, fantasticbotanical, one question ago you told us that your boyfriend had been verbally abusive in the past & slutshamed you, then things got better, then you moved to be with him, which triggered a loneliness-induced depression. At the time, you asked for his support, which he only grudgingly offered only to then turn around and resent you for making him lose his friends (!?) and AT THE SAME TIME, go on and on about how you have to be grateful for his support and how it was OK that he was shit—talking your friends, because after all you were to be blamed for his own social issues.
So now it’s three months later and he uses your vulnerability to laugh at you, refuses to apologize and blames you for having feelings and manages to completely sideline your initial issue & his own lack of sensitivity by, again, attacking you. BTW, is the support you are supposed to be grateful for him reluctantly hanging around at home rather than watching footie with his mates? Seeing as how you were depressed because you had left everything behind to be with him?
My advice: read through (most of) the answers to your other question – they still apply.
Also, if I were you, I might mention to my therapist that you have a dynamics going on with your boyfriend which is quite similar to the one you used to have with your belitteling mother – she scorned & criticized, you appeased and made amends.
I have faith that you will see your boyfriend for the immature & abusive a-hole he is in this relationship, and that you can break away from him – after all, you managed that with your mum.
Also, god save us from people who think that expecting your partner to not be entirely insensitive about your vulnerabilities is ‘controlling’ or involves ‘compassion fatigue’.
posted by doggod at 4:35 PM on May 25, 2019 [21 favorites]
Oh, lovey, I remember your last question but I hadn't remembered your username. Please start prioritizing yourself. And remember that developing coping skills to survive dysfunctional parents doesn't mean we're obligated to stay in dysfunctional relationships just to refine those same coping skills. We're stuck with our parents, even if there's estrangement, but we're never stuck with our romantic partners.
posted by lazuli at 6:20 PM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 6:20 PM on May 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
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posted by all the light we cannot see at 9:50 PM on May 24, 2019 [27 favorites]