Poor management or international criminal conspiracy?
February 28, 2019 10:00 PM Subscribe
The Spouse works for the US division of an Italian company. He is on his 30-somethingth day of work with no break. This is illegal in the US, yes, we know, but the Italian office manager seems to be trying to brush it off by saying, "Oh, they do this in Italy and Spain all the time."
This does not mesh with our understanding of labor laws in Europe. If you work in Italy (or Spain), Is it legal to work your employees for a month with no days off, and if it is illegal, do companies tend to ignore the laws and do it anyway? He would like to be able to counter this statement knowledgeably if it is indeed false, as he suspects.
This does not mesh with our understanding of labor laws in Europe. If you work in Italy (or Spain), Is it legal to work your employees for a month with no days off, and if it is illegal, do companies tend to ignore the laws and do it anyway? He would like to be able to counter this statement knowledgeably if it is indeed false, as he suspects.
His assertion is completely false, as the right to a minimum of one day off per week is actually enshrined in the Constitution of Italy, under Article 36: https://www.ilo.org/ifpdial/information-resources/national-labour-law-profiles/WCMS_158903/lang--en/index.htm
https://www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf
This would be enough to warrant a police investigation. No Italian I know would work under such conditions.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 10:49 PM on February 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
https://www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf
This would be enough to warrant a police investigation. No Italian I know would work under such conditions.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 10:49 PM on February 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
Confirming that this is illegal in Italy.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:19 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:19 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
In italy it would not stand.
95% of offices are closed on the weekend.
Smaller shops that are open on the weekend are usually closed on Monday.
At the moment there is a big debate in italy to have bigger shops and malls closed on a Sunday, and in any case they work in shifts.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:26 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
95% of offices are closed on the weekend.
Smaller shops that are open on the weekend are usually closed on Monday.
At the moment there is a big debate in italy to have bigger shops and malls closed on a Sunday, and in any case they work in shifts.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:26 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Illegal across the whole of the EU.
There's a perception in Europe that Americans have much less working rights / termination protection / holiday entitlements so perhaps this makes them think they can get away with it?
posted by JonB at 11:27 PM on February 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
There's a perception in Europe that Americans have much less working rights / termination protection / holiday entitlements so perhaps this makes them think they can get away with it?
posted by JonB at 11:27 PM on February 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
It would actually not be illegal in the U.S. in most jurisdictions!
posted by praemunire at 11:34 PM on February 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:34 PM on February 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
Illegal across the whole of the EU.
Yeah when you start a new job in the EU you are given the option to opt out of the law that restricts you to a maximum of 48 hours a week, but it is illegal for the company to require you to sign the waiver or penalise you for not doing so.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:16 AM on March 1, 2019
Yeah when you start a new job in the EU you are given the option to opt out of the law that restricts you to a maximum of 48 hours a week, but it is illegal for the company to require you to sign the waiver or penalise you for not doing so.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:16 AM on March 1, 2019
It does happen in Italy but it's illegal there too. There are asshole employers everywhere, that's not a fucking excuse.
posted by lydhre at 5:58 AM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 5:58 AM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Nthing that yes it's illegal in Italy, and yes, it does happen. What does your husband's contract say? Since he is working for the US division, logic would dictate that his contract's jurisdiction would be Stateside. If, perchance, jurisdiction is actually in Italy for some reason, there's a whole raft of other worker's rights in addition to one day off, details of which tend to depend on contract type/industry sector/yadda yadda.
posted by romakimmy at 6:22 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by romakimmy at 6:22 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sounds like the manager is an asshole, but I've seen similar shit come from respectable European countries in their North American offices. Either it's a cynical "lolamericans love their zero holidays" thing (less likely), or it's a cultural assumption that it's okay for an employer to give zero anything since the state provides a considerable social safety net. In the USA, that assumption is not correct.
posted by scruss at 6:26 AM on March 1, 2019
posted by scruss at 6:26 AM on March 1, 2019
If your husband's habitual place of work is in the U.S. it's completely irrelevant what the labor laws are in the company's home country. The only thing that matters are the local labor laws, and in the U.S. a lot of labor laws for hourly employees like overtime, breaks, and days off may not apply to managerial employees.
posted by drlith at 6:48 AM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by drlith at 6:48 AM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Agreed, Italian laws do not apply if the job is based in the US.
This schedule is routine for white collar employees, salaried in a variety of deadline dependent fields such as law, software development, fashion, media, etc. Good companies compensate by offering paid comp days when the rush is over, or work from home, or extra perks. Bad companies just work you to death.
posted by perdhapley at 7:22 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
This schedule is routine for white collar employees, salaried in a variety of deadline dependent fields such as law, software development, fashion, media, etc. Good companies compensate by offering paid comp days when the rush is over, or work from home, or extra perks. Bad companies just work you to death.
posted by perdhapley at 7:22 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think the issue is that asshole managers will take whatever they can get from their employees. This sounds like time to search for a different job that has some respect for the employees, or time to escalate to someone higher up the chain. Have to decide which makes sense based on the organization.
Whether it’s legal or not (it probably is, in the US) makes no difference, since you probably won’t get the government to do anything and even if they do, they won’t fund a replacement job.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:28 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Whether it’s legal or not (it probably is, in the US) makes no difference, since you probably won’t get the government to do anything and even if they do, they won’t fund a replacement job.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:28 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
In the US, there must be a poster in the workplace with the labor laws. This is a federal requirement. It might be legal to ask employees to work 30 days in a row, but they must get overtie for more than 40 hours in a calendar week. Calling employees contractors or managers is a common ploy, but probably not applicable. Contact a labor attorney. Document *everything*.
I would consider replies along the lines of Italian workers get 20 days of paid vacation leave a year, in Spain it's 22, and both countries have more paid holidays.
posted by theora55 at 9:42 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
I would consider replies along the lines of Italian workers get 20 days of paid vacation leave a year, in Spain it's 22, and both countries have more paid holidays.
posted by theora55 at 9:42 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
It might be legal to ask employees to work 30 days in a row, but they must get overtie for more than 40 hours in a calendar week.
Not if they're exempt. One time I went seven weeks without a day off.
posted by praemunire at 10:34 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not if they're exempt. One time I went seven weeks without a day off.
posted by praemunire at 10:34 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Calling employees contractors or managers, i.e., exempt from some labor laws, is a common ploy, but probably not applicable. Way too many employers try to pull this, but it's often not remotely legit.
posted by theora55 at 12:43 PM on March 1, 2019
posted by theora55 at 12:43 PM on March 1, 2019
Spanish employees working 30 days in a row? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
posted by conifer at 7:40 AM on March 2, 2019
posted by conifer at 7:40 AM on March 2, 2019
Yeah when you start a new job in the EU you are given the option to opt out of the law that restricts you to a maximum of 48 hours a week, but it is illegal for the company to require you to sign the waiver or penalise you for not doing so.
This is part of the "European Working Time Directive". There is an option to opt out from the 48 hour week. But not the other parts. Under it you must have a day off in every seven days and be able to spend 11 hours at home in every 24 hours. You cannot opt out of these parts.
Wikipedia link to the directive
posted by DoveBrown at 12:28 AM on March 3, 2019
This is part of the "European Working Time Directive". There is an option to opt out from the 48 hour week. But not the other parts. Under it you must have a day off in every seven days and be able to spend 11 hours at home in every 24 hours. You cannot opt out of these parts.
Wikipedia link to the directive
posted by DoveBrown at 12:28 AM on March 3, 2019
« Older What's the opposite of a biological clock? | My white racist fuck-up story, read at own risk. Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
Sorry, I know that's not a direct answer, but it might be an argument Spouse could make.
posted by amtho at 10:14 PM on February 28, 2019