raising children to speak the minority language of only one parent?
November 11, 2018 8:39 AM Subscribe
I'm in NYC. I would like my children to learn Mandarin, but my wife does not speak it at all and I speak it only poorly. We don't regularly socialize with people who speak Mandarin except my family. What are the minimal lifestyle changes we need to make in order to give our kids a good shot at learning Mandarin? Complications inside.
Mandarin is actually a second language for my family. We natively speak a less common dialect of Chinese. My parents are fluent, but find it effortful enough that they will easily lapse into their native dialect. I have a bit of an accent from that other dialect, and my vocabulary is pretty limited to domestic matters. I could not discuss my work or even my kids' homework. I would ideally like my children to speak Mandarin better than I do.
My wife doesn't have any Chinese language background at all. She's been taking lessons for about a year, but ninety minutes once a week isn't helping much. We can't chat at home in Mandarin yet because it's too easy for me to use words and grammar that she doesn't know, and she can't pronounce the words well enough for me to understand what she means. (She only speaks English, so most of the phonemes are different and the tone system is totally foreign. Our goal for her study of Mandarin is only to allow me to speak Mandarin to our kids without excluding her from the conversation.)
Also, neither of us socialize with any Mandarin speakers. When I moved to this city, I fell into an exclusively English-speaking hobby that is now almost the entirety of my social circle and my life outside of work. I am in the (multi-year) process of certifying to teach this hobby. And my fellow hobbyists are in many ways a lovely environment for raising kids. If I stay in this hobby, my kids will have a peer group and kids' camps for a wholesome and family-friendly activity with people whose values are mostly in line with mine. But they won't meet any Mandarin-speakers that way.
I don't know what to do. It seems clear that our current setup is not going to produce children who can converse with their relatives or shop in Chinatown or reap any of the supposed professional benefits of Mandarin fluency. What does the hive mind recommend?
Mandarin is actually a second language for my family. We natively speak a less common dialect of Chinese. My parents are fluent, but find it effortful enough that they will easily lapse into their native dialect. I have a bit of an accent from that other dialect, and my vocabulary is pretty limited to domestic matters. I could not discuss my work or even my kids' homework. I would ideally like my children to speak Mandarin better than I do.
My wife doesn't have any Chinese language background at all. She's been taking lessons for about a year, but ninety minutes once a week isn't helping much. We can't chat at home in Mandarin yet because it's too easy for me to use words and grammar that she doesn't know, and she can't pronounce the words well enough for me to understand what she means. (She only speaks English, so most of the phonemes are different and the tone system is totally foreign. Our goal for her study of Mandarin is only to allow me to speak Mandarin to our kids without excluding her from the conversation.)
Also, neither of us socialize with any Mandarin speakers. When I moved to this city, I fell into an exclusively English-speaking hobby that is now almost the entirety of my social circle and my life outside of work. I am in the (multi-year) process of certifying to teach this hobby. And my fellow hobbyists are in many ways a lovely environment for raising kids. If I stay in this hobby, my kids will have a peer group and kids' camps for a wholesome and family-friendly activity with people whose values are mostly in line with mine. But they won't meet any Mandarin-speakers that way.
I don't know what to do. It seems clear that our current setup is not going to produce children who can converse with their relatives or shop in Chinatown or reap any of the supposed professional benefits of Mandarin fluency. What does the hive mind recommend?
If you are still in NYC, there must be some Mandarin immersion schools somewhere nearby.
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:49 AM on November 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:49 AM on November 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
as someone in an almost identical boat, the only advice I can give you is to get a Mandarin speaking nanny, preferably one who speaks little English (otherwise they too will fall into the default of speaking the language that is easier for the kids to understand.) Without a native speaker who speaks to them regularly about stuff they care about, it isn't going to happen.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:52 AM on November 11, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:52 AM on November 11, 2018 [20 favorites]
Mandarin language instruction all year + summer immersion is probably your best shot for your kids, starting as early as you are willing to send them to sleep away camp.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:52 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 8:52 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Chinese-American people I know seem to often have their kids in weekend language school. Look for that? And what Automocar says about your wife. You might not be able to converse, but run through scripts with her— greetings, did you make coffee yet, the sort of stereotyped things you say over and over again. If she gets daily practice talking at all, she’ll learn faster in class.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:57 AM on November 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by LizardBreath at 8:57 AM on November 11, 2018 [8 favorites]
My kid started Mandarin immersion this year for kindergarten. We are in MN. I would recommend looking for one in your area, too.
I also have Little Pim DVDs for kids up to age 5. Memail me if you'd like me to send them to you.
posted by jillithd at 8:58 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I also have Little Pim DVDs for kids up to age 5. Memail me if you'd like me to send them to you.
posted by jillithd at 8:58 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thumbs up for your good choice! I am bilingual myself, and my oldest daughter is too. When I grew up, many of my classmates had parents from different nationalities, so I wasn't the only bilingual person in class.
Some thoughts: I really wanted our daughter to know her father's language, and he did in theory, but never got down to speaking with her in his native language. So I suggested we send her to a bilingual school. It has worked fine in the sense that now she speaks both languages, and has a lot of the advantages research says come with growing up with more than one language. She also studies English, and is becoming fluent in that as well.
Back in my school days, the most succesful families were those where the parent with two languages always spoke the second language, and the kids went to extra classes or spent a lot of time with family speaking that language.
posted by mumimor at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Some thoughts: I really wanted our daughter to know her father's language, and he did in theory, but never got down to speaking with her in his native language. So I suggested we send her to a bilingual school. It has worked fine in the sense that now she speaks both languages, and has a lot of the advantages research says come with growing up with more than one language. She also studies English, and is becoming fluent in that as well.
Back in my school days, the most succesful families were those where the parent with two languages always spoke the second language, and the kids went to extra classes or spent a lot of time with family speaking that language.
posted by mumimor at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
And I forgot: lots of children video and audio and books in the second language. I learnt some French and later Spanish and Italian from playing with bilingual kids and listening to music and stories at their houses.
posted by mumimor at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
bilingual, raised in the US here:
I can't emphasize enough what mumimor just said about finding video and audio and books in the second language. Figure out interesting media for your kids so your second language isn't just a 'parents' thing. I'm sure they'll still think of it as something that the parents make them do, but it'll be easier to learn good pronounciation and discover a place for the second language in their lives.
1) for your wife: there are tons of podcast-format adult beginner programs (such as the Coffee Break [language] series, or various levels of audio at Lingq). I listened to the Russian Lingq beginner programs and they were just a recorded conversation, sort of podcast/talk-show format, at different levels for beginnner and intermediate speakers, and were better for informal/conversational/colloquial speech than just learning from a textbook or class would get you.
Eventually your speaking/pronunciation ability improves from passively consuming audio.
2) I'm sure there is an equivalent thing for kids
3) I briefly attended an enrichment program in my "secondary" language in 4th grade, and it was basically an art studio offering classes for kids in our other language. They made an explicit point that back at home, our interactions with parents were likely heavy on the sort of utilitarian "dinner, bedtime, turn off the TV, did you do your homework, is your backpack packed?" sorts of conversations, and that there were whole swaths of topics that we could have been missing. So we talked about art and theater and things going on in the world as a way to try to enhance our fluency in our language.
posted by twoplussix at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can't emphasize enough what mumimor just said about finding video and audio and books in the second language. Figure out interesting media for your kids so your second language isn't just a 'parents' thing. I'm sure they'll still think of it as something that the parents make them do, but it'll be easier to learn good pronounciation and discover a place for the second language in their lives.
1) for your wife: there are tons of podcast-format adult beginner programs (such as the Coffee Break [language] series, or various levels of audio at Lingq). I listened to the Russian Lingq beginner programs and they were just a recorded conversation, sort of podcast/talk-show format, at different levels for beginnner and intermediate speakers, and were better for informal/conversational/colloquial speech than just learning from a textbook or class would get you.
Eventually your speaking/pronunciation ability improves from passively consuming audio.
2) I'm sure there is an equivalent thing for kids
3) I briefly attended an enrichment program in my "secondary" language in 4th grade, and it was basically an art studio offering classes for kids in our other language. They made an explicit point that back at home, our interactions with parents were likely heavy on the sort of utilitarian "dinner, bedtime, turn off the TV, did you do your homework, is your backpack packed?" sorts of conversations, and that there were whole swaths of topics that we could have been missing. So we talked about art and theater and things going on in the world as a way to try to enhance our fluency in our language.
posted by twoplussix at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don’t think this will work. My wife’s parents are native Cantonese/Taishanese speakers who like you find Mandarin effortful, and they too very much wanted their NYC-raised kids to know Mandarin. They had a monolingual nanny from Flushing for the first 2-3 years, Chinese school every weekend till she went to college, and they resolved to only speak Mandarin among themselves. But as time passed it was extremely difficult for them to use Mandarin on a daily basis in the house.
The result is that my wife is basically a monolingual English speaker who doesn’t really know any dialect of Chinese — her Mandarin is about the level of an advanced beginner/low intermediate, and her Cantonese is worse. It’s difficult for her to communicate with the older members of her family who don’t speak English well or at all.
I think if your wife doesn’t know Chinese Mandarin is simply not going to happen, and you would have to make an extraordinary effort for your kid to even learn your less common dialect. But I think you should focus on your dialect — at least there you have family your children could speak with in a natural context.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
The result is that my wife is basically a monolingual English speaker who doesn’t really know any dialect of Chinese — her Mandarin is about the level of an advanced beginner/low intermediate, and her Cantonese is worse. It’s difficult for her to communicate with the older members of her family who don’t speak English well or at all.
I think if your wife doesn’t know Chinese Mandarin is simply not going to happen, and you would have to make an extraordinary effort for your kid to even learn your less common dialect. But I think you should focus on your dialect — at least there you have family your children could speak with in a natural context.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yeah.. this will be hard. At best unless they personally decide they want to learn it they'll be passive users.
We tried this with Polish (my wife grew up speaking it at home but is a native speaker of English) we have a Polish nanny who speaks only in Polish to them and my in-laws mostly speak to the kids in Polish and my kids can understand domestic stuff, but cant generate much in the way of language.
I'm (or was at this point) bilingual in my father's native language (which my mother doesn't speak) but I really only got there when my parents shipped me to France to stay with relatives for a few summers. And with my grandmother gone now, and my dad and I preferring English I find I can't really speak at anywhere near the level I had as a teen. And that's about the simplest language for an English speaker to learn.
I will second that you should focus on your dialect if you are going to pursue this project. Also don't make this about your wife not having language skills.
posted by JPD at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
We tried this with Polish (my wife grew up speaking it at home but is a native speaker of English) we have a Polish nanny who speaks only in Polish to them and my in-laws mostly speak to the kids in Polish and my kids can understand domestic stuff, but cant generate much in the way of language.
I'm (or was at this point) bilingual in my father's native language (which my mother doesn't speak) but I really only got there when my parents shipped me to France to stay with relatives for a few summers. And with my grandmother gone now, and my dad and I preferring English I find I can't really speak at anywhere near the level I had as a teen. And that's about the simplest language for an English speaker to learn.
I will second that you should focus on your dialect if you are going to pursue this project. Also don't make this about your wife not having language skills.
posted by JPD at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ah yeah this problem. Maybe Mandarin immersion schools are sufficient! But for lack of those, the common fallbacks in my head are:
Maybe having the kids immersed in the dialect won't be so bad? At least your kids will pick up SOME non-English phonemes and a non-English language, and they will probably have a slight advantage in learning Mandarin whenever they choose to do so (hint: college Chinese is probably as much work as organic chemistry, but those who survive and spend a summer in Beijing get really, really good -- I was always impressed by my classmates).
or
Good luck; this is really hard (but maybe more feasible in NYC because there are Mandarin-immersion programs, or less feasible in NYC because it is more socially acceptable to have a Chinese-looking face and not speak the language).
posted by batter_my_heart at 11:44 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
1. send them to pick up some phonemes from the Mandarin-speaking grandparents; also, free childcare!but this doesn't seem like an option for you if you strictly want your kids to speak Mandarin and not the dialect.
Maybe having the kids immersed in the dialect won't be so bad? At least your kids will pick up SOME non-English phonemes and a non-English language, and they will probably have a slight advantage in learning Mandarin whenever they choose to do so (hint: college Chinese is probably as much work as organic chemistry, but those who survive and spend a summer in Beijing get really, really good -- I was always impressed by my classmates).
or
2. send them to the old country to forcibly socialize with their cousinsbut this didn't work for me because I had no cousins remotely near my age living in China. (Do your kids have cousins, of any level of removeness?) Having a socially motivated reason to speak Mandarin is really what set apart the active speakers in my cohort from the passive users.
Good luck; this is really hard (but maybe more feasible in NYC because there are Mandarin-immersion programs, or less feasible in NYC because it is more socially acceptable to have a Chinese-looking face and not speak the language).
posted by batter_my_heart at 11:44 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
So, both my husband and I do not speak Mandarin at all. Two of my children speak Mandarin, one approaching fluency. Anyway, we do not speak Mandarin or any other tonal language at our house and managed to do the following:
1) We got the children used to hearing tones and being able to differentiate those tones. We did this pre-K with using Rosetta Stone. Since you speak a language that is tonal you should practice your family's language with your child so they develop the ear. If they have the ear then the rest becomes easier;
2) In the US there are Chinese language immersion schools. I lived in Minnesota where the charter school movement is strong so we were able to send the kids to immersion school as a public school option. The Chinese charter school my children attended had excellent performance in all areas and was popular with parents who did not plan for their children to be fluent in Chinese after 6th grade. An example being that Singapore maths was taught providing leverage later for the children in their later studies;
3) Both the US and Sydney have weekend schools which by themselves may not be enough alone. You will have to be on it with the children, especially if the children are reluctant learners. The weekend schools in Sydney offer both Mandarin and Cantonese. I am sure I could have found Cantonese courses in Minnesota though Mandarin is the most available;
4) The children have books and software galore but physical courses seem to work the best for making things stick. The books and software reinforce and provide another source of speaking an example is using Duolingo to reinforce the language learning;
5) Two of my children attend a school that is known for providing language instruction with high schoolers required to take two languages other than English and one extra language in primary so that racks up some hours;
7) To reinforce language exposure we watch films that are subtitled. Anime options have a LOT of subtitling available in multiple languages and dubbing, too. But I am sure you can find a lot of recommendations from fellow mefites on films that would be great and appropriate for learners. I found that learning body language from film was another side benefit;
8) We plan to have exposure to native speakers through local language and culture clubs. But you know, nothing wrong with having meetups with fellow learners. Just typing up "french language clubs sydney" got me a lot of options. You being in NYC has a lot of opportunities, too.
9) The daughter and I are in the process of learning a language together. She will be getting it in school while I will be re-learning from software, books and film. Since your wife is learning Mandarin this provides an opportunity for bonding with the kids. It also provides a speaking partner, too.
Advice from my daughter the learner (entering 7th grade this coming February): Hi. Try to get your kids to practice as much as possible, sending your kid to a Chinese immersion school would be ideal, but if that's not available, you could use software and get your kids to practice at least 15-30 per day, or longer, depending on your schedule. For example, Rosetta Stone, Babbel, or Duolingo. (Duolingo is free, and Babbel and Rosetta Stone are subscription based. However, Duolingo Chinese doesn't have anything for speaking, so for practising tones, I would recommend Rosetta Stone.)
jadepearl again: The online language service used by the school is Language Perfect, which is subscription. We have not used it before.
The main thing is keeping the kids interested in learning the language and developing the ear. Personally, I think you would be fine teaching your child your family's language with reinforcement through family and interactions. There is nothing wrong with having your child learn both. What is more essential is developing the ear for tones and this is weird to say, but the mouth to make those tones.
Whoa, wall of text. YMMV but this is what we did/doing and it has been OK especially for parents where one is deaf to tones; the second has the ear for tones and both speak no Mandarin or eastern language.
posted by jadepearl at 2:01 PM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
1) We got the children used to hearing tones and being able to differentiate those tones. We did this pre-K with using Rosetta Stone. Since you speak a language that is tonal you should practice your family's language with your child so they develop the ear. If they have the ear then the rest becomes easier;
2) In the US there are Chinese language immersion schools. I lived in Minnesota where the charter school movement is strong so we were able to send the kids to immersion school as a public school option. The Chinese charter school my children attended had excellent performance in all areas and was popular with parents who did not plan for their children to be fluent in Chinese after 6th grade. An example being that Singapore maths was taught providing leverage later for the children in their later studies;
3) Both the US and Sydney have weekend schools which by themselves may not be enough alone. You will have to be on it with the children, especially if the children are reluctant learners. The weekend schools in Sydney offer both Mandarin and Cantonese. I am sure I could have found Cantonese courses in Minnesota though Mandarin is the most available;
4) The children have books and software galore but physical courses seem to work the best for making things stick. The books and software reinforce and provide another source of speaking an example is using Duolingo to reinforce the language learning;
5) Two of my children attend a school that is known for providing language instruction with high schoolers required to take two languages other than English and one extra language in primary so that racks up some hours;
7) To reinforce language exposure we watch films that are subtitled. Anime options have a LOT of subtitling available in multiple languages and dubbing, too. But I am sure you can find a lot of recommendations from fellow mefites on films that would be great and appropriate for learners. I found that learning body language from film was another side benefit;
8) We plan to have exposure to native speakers through local language and culture clubs. But you know, nothing wrong with having meetups with fellow learners. Just typing up "french language clubs sydney" got me a lot of options. You being in NYC has a lot of opportunities, too.
9) The daughter and I are in the process of learning a language together. She will be getting it in school while I will be re-learning from software, books and film. Since your wife is learning Mandarin this provides an opportunity for bonding with the kids. It also provides a speaking partner, too.
Advice from my daughter the learner (entering 7th grade this coming February): Hi. Try to get your kids to practice as much as possible, sending your kid to a Chinese immersion school would be ideal, but if that's not available, you could use software and get your kids to practice at least 15-30 per day, or longer, depending on your schedule. For example, Rosetta Stone, Babbel, or Duolingo. (Duolingo is free, and Babbel and Rosetta Stone are subscription based. However, Duolingo Chinese doesn't have anything for speaking, so for practising tones, I would recommend Rosetta Stone.)
jadepearl again: The online language service used by the school is Language Perfect, which is subscription. We have not used it before.
The main thing is keeping the kids interested in learning the language and developing the ear. Personally, I think you would be fine teaching your child your family's language with reinforcement through family and interactions. There is nothing wrong with having your child learn both. What is more essential is developing the ear for tones and this is weird to say, but the mouth to make those tones.
Whoa, wall of text. YMMV but this is what we did/doing and it has been OK especially for parents where one is deaf to tones; the second has the ear for tones and both speak no Mandarin or eastern language.
posted by jadepearl at 2:01 PM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
Saturday morning Chinese school is great. If you can start socializing with other Chinese School parents that'll be helpful too. Are there no other Chinese-Americans in your hobby at all? If there are you might be able to form an alliance of people who speak Mandarin to each other's children.
I'd also like to recommend kid's TV shows in Mandarin. 巧虎 (Qiao Hu) is a Taiwanese show I grew up on, but there's also the Mandarin dub of the Monkey King cartoon or 喜羊羊, which is a Mainland show with a Tom & Jerry vibe. You can also get Mandarin dubs of anime.
posted by storytam at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2018
I'd also like to recommend kid's TV shows in Mandarin. 巧虎 (Qiao Hu) is a Taiwanese show I grew up on, but there's also the Mandarin dub of the Monkey King cartoon or 喜羊羊, which is a Mainland show with a Tom & Jerry vibe. You can also get Mandarin dubs of anime.
posted by storytam at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2018
Our kid has been in Spanish immersion pre-K, K and now 1st grade. She is picking it up but it’s slow, and feels like constant overhead in her education and we often wonder if it’s worth it.
posted by w0mbat at 9:49 AM on November 12, 2018
posted by w0mbat at 9:49 AM on November 12, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Automocar at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2018 [8 favorites]