How much alcohol is OK in the early stages of dating?
March 16, 2018 6:17 AM Subscribe
I (27, F) have had bad experiences with alcoholics both in my family and romantic relationships. I also tend to match the drinking habits of the people who are in my life, which is why I want to steer clear from heavy drinkers.
I've started to date a guy I'm really into, but I'm getting anxious over the amounts of alcohol that is involved in our dates. Am I overreacting?
More special snowflake details inside.
I've been on 5 dates with this man (34), and I've enjoyed most of them, but alcohol is always present when we meet up. Although some drinking is very common in the early stages of dating, helping with the nerves and all, I feel that it's time to lessen our consumption, but it doesn't really happen.
First interaction: I chat him up at a bar, somewhat tipsy myself, but he was visibly intoxicated. It's Friday night though.
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?), which I decline, but we end up in a bar having 3 beers. Later on he confesses he was hangover that evening.
Second date: I push for a sober environment, so we drive to have a short hike. After coming back we have dinner and 6 beers. Way too much for my taste.
Third date: we meet up for dinner and have 5 beers. Still a lot in my book.
Fourth date: we meet for a short walk in the park for about 45 minutes.
Fifth date: once again I push for a sober environment and we go for another hike, but later on after dinner at my place we end up in a bar and have 3 beers. He is super-hangover that day and it's a big turn off for me. It's a work day the next morning, but he pushes to keep drinking.
I also feel as if we somehow stumble through the sober hours and feel relaxed in each other's company only when we've started to drink. I think it's OK for the first date or two, but I wouldn't want it to be the norm.
I did bring the topic up already after the first date, and I did say I have history with alcoholics, and that it's a red line for me. We agreed to balance it out and drink only every second date, but that's not how it played out although I tried to plan the dates around other activities.
Is this a normal amount of drinking?
How do I bring up my unease about alcohol without coming off as if I'm trying to change him after 5 dates? I wouldn't want to force him into drinking less to please me only to be back to his usual drinking habits in a month or two. Can I judge his drinking habits from the few interactions we've had? Do I hope for things to change a little as we get more familiar with each other or do I run for the hills?
Other than the drinking, I think he's a good fit and I like his company. He's a good communicator, intelligent and kind.
On the other hand, I've had a two year long dry-spell and a series of abusive relationships before that. I don't really trust my own judgement around romantic relationships, and I'm full of doubt.
I do realize it is difficult to give advice based on only these details, but I really would appreciate any input from an outside perspective.
I've been on 5 dates with this man (34), and I've enjoyed most of them, but alcohol is always present when we meet up. Although some drinking is very common in the early stages of dating, helping with the nerves and all, I feel that it's time to lessen our consumption, but it doesn't really happen.
First interaction: I chat him up at a bar, somewhat tipsy myself, but he was visibly intoxicated. It's Friday night though.
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?), which I decline, but we end up in a bar having 3 beers. Later on he confesses he was hangover that evening.
Second date: I push for a sober environment, so we drive to have a short hike. After coming back we have dinner and 6 beers. Way too much for my taste.
Third date: we meet up for dinner and have 5 beers. Still a lot in my book.
Fourth date: we meet for a short walk in the park for about 45 minutes.
Fifth date: once again I push for a sober environment and we go for another hike, but later on after dinner at my place we end up in a bar and have 3 beers. He is super-hangover that day and it's a big turn off for me. It's a work day the next morning, but he pushes to keep drinking.
I also feel as if we somehow stumble through the sober hours and feel relaxed in each other's company only when we've started to drink. I think it's OK for the first date or two, but I wouldn't want it to be the norm.
I did bring the topic up already after the first date, and I did say I have history with alcoholics, and that it's a red line for me. We agreed to balance it out and drink only every second date, but that's not how it played out although I tried to plan the dates around other activities.
Is this a normal amount of drinking?
How do I bring up my unease about alcohol without coming off as if I'm trying to change him after 5 dates? I wouldn't want to force him into drinking less to please me only to be back to his usual drinking habits in a month or two. Can I judge his drinking habits from the few interactions we've had? Do I hope for things to change a little as we get more familiar with each other or do I run for the hills?
Other than the drinking, I think he's a good fit and I like his company. He's a good communicator, intelligent and kind.
On the other hand, I've had a two year long dry-spell and a series of abusive relationships before that. I don't really trust my own judgement around romantic relationships, and I'm full of doubt.
I do realize it is difficult to give advice based on only these details, but I really would appreciate any input from an outside perspective.
Bargaining over the amount/frequency that you'll drink sounds like a red flag to me.
Occasionally drinking in the quantities y'all are drinking would not raise an eyebrow, but always? Kinda yeah.
posted by adamrice at 6:25 AM on March 16, 2018 [36 favorites]
Occasionally drinking in the quantities y'all are drinking would not raise an eyebrow, but always? Kinda yeah.
posted by adamrice at 6:25 AM on March 16, 2018 [36 favorites]
Some people will say this is normal and some people will say it isn't. I'm on the side of Isn't, for what it's worth.
More importantly, you should trust what your instincts are telling you. You can see something isn't right with this guy and alcohol. It's probably not going to change. If anything, it will get worse, not better, as you get more comfortable with each other. If I were in your place I would end this before it gets too complicated.
posted by something something at 6:25 AM on March 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
More importantly, you should trust what your instincts are telling you. You can see something isn't right with this guy and alcohol. It's probably not going to change. If anything, it will get worse, not better, as you get more comfortable with each other. If I were in your place I would end this before it gets too complicated.
posted by something something at 6:25 AM on March 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Hi, I have alcoholics in the family, and am equally wary of others' heavy drinking. This guy sounds like a troubled drinker, if not an alcoholic, and I really only see red flags and flashing lights. Even if you didn't have a past or concern about drinking, not enjoying each others' company unless you're drunk is a massive bad sign for relationship potential. Also, I'd add that, if this is what you've seen after only five dates, you might want to consider what you're not seeing--likely lots more heavy drinking. Definitely something you don't want to be involved with.
I know it can be hard to trust your judgement after abusive relationships, but your judgment is spot on here. You deserve much better than this. I would text him that you're not interested in seeing him again and erase his details. Good luck to you.
posted by stillmoving at 6:27 AM on March 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I know it can be hard to trust your judgement after abusive relationships, but your judgment is spot on here. You deserve much better than this. I would text him that you're not interested in seeing him again and erase his details. Good luck to you.
posted by stillmoving at 6:27 AM on March 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
Given your reaction (“strange?”, “too much for my taste”, noting every instance of being hungover) I think this is too much booze for you for this relationship and he hasn’t taken your feedback seriously enough.
posted by like_neon at 6:27 AM on March 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 6:27 AM on March 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
I, as a person who likes drinking very much, think this is strange.
posted by JanetLand at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [115 favorites]
I, as a person who likes drinking very much, think this is strange.
posted by JanetLand at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [115 favorites]
Yeah, that seems like too much to me. It's not a good sign that he seems to be incapable of socially interacting with you without alcohol, to the extent that he argues with you about "sober" dates. The occasional 5 or 6 beers is fine, it can't be an everyday thing.
posted by peacheater at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by peacheater at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
If you don't like it, you don't like it. Walk away. It'll be easier now than later.
FWIW, I am a child of an alcoholic, and 6 beers on a second date would make me go screaming away. I don't drink 6 beers in one evening once a year. 6 beers is a lot.
posted by Automocar at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [37 favorites]
FWIW, I am a child of an alcoholic, and 6 beers on a second date would make me go screaming away. I don't drink 6 beers in one evening once a year. 6 beers is a lot.
posted by Automocar at 6:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [37 favorites]
I come from very drinky people. This...
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
Made my jaw drop. My drinky people never do that. Nope. Trust your instincts.
posted by kimberussell at 6:29 AM on March 16, 2018 [45 favorites]
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
Made my jaw drop. My drinky people never do that. Nope. Trust your instincts.
posted by kimberussell at 6:29 AM on March 16, 2018 [45 favorites]
It's been five dates and this dude clearly Enjoys Drinking at a level you find uncomfortable and isn't very responsive to "let's be sober." Maybe, for instance, you could be more assertive in asking for him to be sober during your dates and he might be more responsive but ...why should you have to expend the energy to be more assertive about this when there's dudes who do not drink in ways that make you anxious? Or don't drink? Or respond in a decent way to your requests for more sober-time?
Trying to get someone to drink less than they want to is emotionally draining labor and IMO should be reserved for someone you genuinely care about having an ongoing relationship with, not a guy you went on five dates with whose current appeal is "good fit, good company, good communicator, intelligent and kind." That's a decent standard for, say, a coworker you're mandated to be around every day but not necessarily someone you're dating and certainly not past the second or third date. If he's baseline not-awful and drinks enough that you're anxious about how much he drinks, I assure you there's baseline not-awful dudes who drink in ways you wouldn't need to address, or don't drink.
posted by griphus at 6:31 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Trying to get someone to drink less than they want to is emotionally draining labor and IMO should be reserved for someone you genuinely care about having an ongoing relationship with, not a guy you went on five dates with whose current appeal is "good fit, good company, good communicator, intelligent and kind." That's a decent standard for, say, a coworker you're mandated to be around every day but not necessarily someone you're dating and certainly not past the second or third date. If he's baseline not-awful and drinks enough that you're anxious about how much he drinks, I assure you there's baseline not-awful dudes who drink in ways you wouldn't need to address, or don't drink.
posted by griphus at 6:31 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't think there's enough information to say whether he is drinking in amounts that are indicative of a problem. What is clear, however, is that he is drinking *with you* at a frequency that is a problem *for you*, and he has done nothing to adjust that despite being very clearly told it is a problem for you. Which either means his drinking is a problem because he can't adjust it, or he's not as kind as you otherwise think he is, because he can adjust it and is choosing not to. And in either case that'd be enough for me to cut bait and move on.
posted by solotoro at 6:31 AM on March 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 6:31 AM on March 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
This actually doesn't seem that strange to me if it was cold outside, but I come from the land of mulled wine at every corner. I can see how a shared warm boozy drink on a walk would be fun on a first date.
The beers however? Holy cow. That would be consistently way way way too many beers for my comfort, at that point I feel like one is drinking to get drunk which is precisely where I draw the line.
posted by lydhre at 6:34 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
This actually doesn't seem that strange to me if it was cold outside, but I come from the land of mulled wine at every corner. I can see how a shared warm boozy drink on a walk would be fun on a first date.
The beers however? Holy cow. That would be consistently way way way too many beers for my comfort, at that point I feel like one is drinking to get drunk which is precisely where I draw the line.
posted by lydhre at 6:34 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
I, as a person who likes drinking very much, think this is strange.
Yep. I'm usually a pretty live and let live person, 3 beers in a night is not at all outrageous for me, and... yep. The question you should be asking yourself isn't "how much alcohol is OK in the early stages of dating?", it's "what kind of person offers you unmarked alcohol from an unknown source ON A FIRST DATE?" and the answer is "someone who is at best cavalier with the safety of others and at worst not safe to be around".
posted by capricorn at 6:37 AM on March 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
Yep. I'm usually a pretty live and let live person, 3 beers in a night is not at all outrageous for me, and... yep. The question you should be asking yourself isn't "how much alcohol is OK in the early stages of dating?", it's "what kind of person offers you unmarked alcohol from an unknown source ON A FIRST DATE?" and the answer is "someone who is at best cavalier with the safety of others and at worst not safe to be around".
posted by capricorn at 6:37 AM on March 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
As a former Al-Anon member, in addition to the red flag flask, if dude is a grown adult man and is as hungover as much you say - and apparently is not bothered by those hangovers to stop drinking the next day - then yeah, he drinks too much.
I'm sorry, but keep looking, you've been down this road before and you know how it will end, don't waste your time, find a better fit. Good luck to you.
posted by NoraCharles at 6:39 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry, but keep looking, you've been down this road before and you know how it will end, don't waste your time, find a better fit. Good luck to you.
posted by NoraCharles at 6:39 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have known people who 5-6 beers wasn't problematic, but they were either..larger people or otherwise had a high tolerance for booze and/or were in the land of the somewhat weaker 3.2 beer.
There's a chance this guy is a straight up problematic alcoholic, probably more likely than not depending on where you are. Only you can tell if him ending up drinking every time you've been out so far is because he has a problem or if it isn't.
That said, it sounds like it's too much for you (kinda like a guy I knew who was totally fine with a beer or two but gave it up because it was never just a beer or two once he got started). If it's going to lead you somewhere you don't want to go, tell him that and see what he does. He may moderate himself, he may not. Given that it's clearly not going to work as is a little discussion certainly can't hurt. Just make it about you, not him, unless you've observed negative effects from his drinking, in which case you can talk about those if you really want to..
posted by wierdo at 6:42 AM on March 16, 2018
There's a chance this guy is a straight up problematic alcoholic, probably more likely than not depending on where you are. Only you can tell if him ending up drinking every time you've been out so far is because he has a problem or if it isn't.
That said, it sounds like it's too much for you (kinda like a guy I knew who was totally fine with a beer or two but gave it up because it was never just a beer or two once he got started). If it's going to lead you somewhere you don't want to go, tell him that and see what he does. He may moderate himself, he may not. Given that it's clearly not going to work as is a little discussion certainly can't hurt. Just make it about you, not him, unless you've observed negative effects from his drinking, in which case you can talk about those if you really want to..
posted by wierdo at 6:42 AM on March 16, 2018
p.s.: I would add that the amount of drinking that is acceptable will vary for different people. But the fact that he's continuing to drink after you've expressed a desire to abstain is concerning. Also, consistently drinking off hangovers (e.g., warm flask of unknown mystery drink--not, say, mulled wine) can be a sign of physical alcohol dependence. Not something you need in your life.
posted by stillmoving at 6:43 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by stillmoving at 6:43 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
The red flag is that it's too much for you.
It doesn't matter if all of us here are great with it or say you're being silly or whatever. The issue is this is too much drinking for your liking, and that's fine.
Consider it a lesson learned, stop seeing this guy and move on, otherwise in a few months you may be writing and asking how to deal with a bf who's always drinking when you want to do fun things.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:45 AM on March 16, 2018 [36 favorites]
It doesn't matter if all of us here are great with it or say you're being silly or whatever. The issue is this is too much drinking for your liking, and that's fine.
Consider it a lesson learned, stop seeing this guy and move on, otherwise in a few months you may be writing and asking how to deal with a bf who's always drinking when you want to do fun things.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:45 AM on March 16, 2018 [36 favorites]
We agreed to balance it out and drink only every second date
When you start making a schedule for when you can be drunk on future dates it's probably time to admit there's a problem.
I really like griphus's answer. Perhaps you can put your foot down and just be like "look, this isn't cool... just knock it off, please." and he'll agree and everything will be good. It doesn't really sound like it's gonna work though. Plenty of other nice guys out there that aren't going to need to look forward to the next date when it's ok to get drunk.
posted by bondcliff at 6:48 AM on March 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
When you start making a schedule for when you can be drunk on future dates it's probably time to admit there's a problem.
I really like griphus's answer. Perhaps you can put your foot down and just be like "look, this isn't cool... just knock it off, please." and he'll agree and everything will be good. It doesn't really sound like it's gonna work though. Plenty of other nice guys out there that aren't going to need to look forward to the next date when it's ok to get drunk.
posted by bondcliff at 6:48 AM on March 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
He may be experiencing the nerves you speak of for a few dates longer than you are, or he may be a hardcore alcoholic. Who knows.
I'm not sure why you don't just ask him about his regular drinking habits.
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:01 AM on March 16, 2018
I'm not sure why you don't just ask him about his regular drinking habits.
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:01 AM on March 16, 2018
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
Made my jaw drop. My drinky people never do that. Nope. Trust your instincts.
This. I drink more than most folks (I think) -- normal for me to have a cocktail and then wine with dinner. Sometimes I'll have a drink or a glass of wine at lunch. (And sometimes my habits lead me to drink too much out of absentmindedness when there's not much on my schedule for a few weeks....at which point I say, hey, I'm drinking too much, and cut back.)
Bringing a thermos full of hot toddy to a first date is really strange, unless it was somehow thematic (were you building snowmen)?
That you're only really comfortable around each other with a buzz on isn't good either.
Have the talk, or just exit the relationship.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Made my jaw drop. My drinky people never do that. Nope. Trust your instincts.
This. I drink more than most folks (I think) -- normal for me to have a cocktail and then wine with dinner. Sometimes I'll have a drink or a glass of wine at lunch. (And sometimes my habits lead me to drink too much out of absentmindedness when there's not much on my schedule for a few weeks....at which point I say, hey, I'm drinking too much, and cut back.)
Bringing a thermos full of hot toddy to a first date is really strange, unless it was somehow thematic (were you building snowmen)?
That you're only really comfortable around each other with a buzz on isn't good either.
Have the talk, or just exit the relationship.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I feel like I'm starting to see a new rule on the green: when a woman is asking if she's overreacting about her date doing something, she's really just asking "Is it okay for me to have unpleasant feelings about this situation?" The answer is always yes, it is okay to feel and think what you actually feel and think. There are plenty of men out there who don't drink at all, or who drink in much more moderate quantities. You don't have to keep seeing this guy, and it's not an over-reaction to not be into him. It is absolutely okay to have preferences when you are dating.
posted by sockermom at 7:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [127 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 7:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [127 favorites]
After 5 dates, no matter what the issue is (drinking or literally anything else), if you feel weird and uncomfortable with someone, go find someone else to date. Relationships don't tend to get easier and more conflict-free as time passes. The dating part of relationships should be fun, not a torture test.
posted by xingcat at 7:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 7:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: You mentioned you have a history of abusive relationships. I wonder if you're thinking something along the lines of "I don't like the drinking, but at least he doesn't yell/hit/throw things/remind me of Joe." Relationships should not be graded on a sliding scale. Since you've had past issues with boundaries, I would look at setting the bar higher than you think you should. You may not find someone who clears that bar for quite awhile, but at least you won't be settling for someone who's not good for you.
You're probably used to having to maneuver around drunk and/or angry people and perform the emotional labor that griphus mentioned. You do not need to take on this responsibility, especially after five dates. I fully understand how it can feel familiar (and almost comforting, in a bizarre way) to be with someone who needs to be pushed and prodded into being a decent human being. My therapist told me that I was trying to retcon my childhood by picking unstable guys so I could "fix" them like I could never fix my parents. You can't ever get a redo, though. You deserve better than what you had.
Listen to the alarm bells in your head - you don't need any outside confirmation, you know you don't want to date this guy anymore. You don't need our permission to kick him to the curb.
posted by AFABulous at 7:13 AM on March 16, 2018 [32 favorites]
You're probably used to having to maneuver around drunk and/or angry people and perform the emotional labor that griphus mentioned. You do not need to take on this responsibility, especially after five dates. I fully understand how it can feel familiar (and almost comforting, in a bizarre way) to be with someone who needs to be pushed and prodded into being a decent human being. My therapist told me that I was trying to retcon my childhood by picking unstable guys so I could "fix" them like I could never fix my parents. You can't ever get a redo, though. You deserve better than what you had.
Listen to the alarm bells in your head - you don't need any outside confirmation, you know you don't want to date this guy anymore. You don't need our permission to kick him to the curb.
posted by AFABulous at 7:13 AM on March 16, 2018 [32 favorites]
One time I went on two dates with this dude who seemed perfectly ok. Sociable, reasonably well adjusted, etc. We had a daytime date then an evening date. He didn't drink at all at the daytime date, had a beer or maybe 2 at the evening date (I don't drink at all, which probably limited him, in retrospect), all was fine. Then we went to his place and had sex and it was all right, and after he said, "hmm, I don't know if I've ever had sex sober before."
... the fuck? Hard pass.
Sometimes people give you hints about who they really are early on in dating. Sometimes they wave giant banners and hold marching parades. A 30 year old guy who's never had sex without being drunk is a BIG OL WARNING PARADE. Someone bringing a thermos of home mixed booze to you on a first date IS A BIG OL WARNING PARADE.
Even if these guys don't have "problems with alcohol" or however you want to call it, they're obviously doing things that are TROUBLING, that would TROUBLE most people, and it's really super ok for us to draw a hard line and say no thank you, I don't need your brand of trouble in my life.
I think you can trust your judgment to be uneasy here and wary of this guy. In my opinion it is spot on.
posted by phunniemee at 7:16 AM on March 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
... the fuck? Hard pass.
Sometimes people give you hints about who they really are early on in dating. Sometimes they wave giant banners and hold marching parades. A 30 year old guy who's never had sex without being drunk is a BIG OL WARNING PARADE. Someone bringing a thermos of home mixed booze to you on a first date IS A BIG OL WARNING PARADE.
Even if these guys don't have "problems with alcohol" or however you want to call it, they're obviously doing things that are TROUBLING, that would TROUBLE most people, and it's really super ok for us to draw a hard line and say no thank you, I don't need your brand of trouble in my life.
I think you can trust your judgment to be uneasy here and wary of this guy. In my opinion it is spot on.
posted by phunniemee at 7:16 AM on March 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
That does seem like a lot of drinking to me, but all that matters is that it's more drinking than you're comfortable with. You're allowed to decide how much drinking is OK with you, and you don't need to have a specific reason. What you describe might be fine for someone else, but it isn't fine for you. End of story.
Just as important though is the fact that this guy has already, starting at the second date, repeatedly disregarded a serious and clearly-stated boundary. That's not a difference of opinion, that's really fucked up and it's an unambiguous sign that he is a bad partner. I don't care how charming he is, this is not a good person to have in your life. It will only get worse the longer you are with him. This is not a "red flag, be wary" situation, it is a "dump him, block him, never look back" situation. Go find someone who can show you some basic respect.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Just as important though is the fact that this guy has already, starting at the second date, repeatedly disregarded a serious and clearly-stated boundary. That's not a difference of opinion, that's really fucked up and it's an unambiguous sign that he is a bad partner. I don't care how charming he is, this is not a good person to have in your life. It will only get worse the longer you are with him. This is not a "red flag, be wary" situation, it is a "dump him, block him, never look back" situation. Go find someone who can show you some basic respect.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for the replies.
It is true that I'm an expert people-pleaser and usually put others before me in hopes to deserve decent behavior towards me. I also mirror people which in this case has translated into me having 6 beers in one evening which I normally wouldn't do unless it was a very special occasion. My boundaries are very shaky, and my thinking pattern has been somewhat along the lines of "wow, this dude doesn't belittle me, doesn't yell at me and wants to see me! Awesome!"
It did feel all wrong typing this question out, but thank you for helping me muster enough courage to admit to myself that this isn't OK with me, although in comparison to my past might seam like a good deal. Old habits die hard.
To set the record straight, the first date did involve temperatures well below zero and serious amounts of snow, but I guess it doesn't exactly make everything right.
Thank you all once again.
posted by mesija at 7:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
It is true that I'm an expert people-pleaser and usually put others before me in hopes to deserve decent behavior towards me. I also mirror people which in this case has translated into me having 6 beers in one evening which I normally wouldn't do unless it was a very special occasion. My boundaries are very shaky, and my thinking pattern has been somewhat along the lines of "wow, this dude doesn't belittle me, doesn't yell at me and wants to see me! Awesome!"
It did feel all wrong typing this question out, but thank you for helping me muster enough courage to admit to myself that this isn't OK with me, although in comparison to my past might seam like a good deal. Old habits die hard.
To set the record straight, the first date did involve temperatures well below zero and serious amounts of snow, but I guess it doesn't exactly make everything right.
Thank you all once again.
posted by mesija at 7:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm a pretty enthusiastic drinker and this seems worrisome. What sticks out to me is that he was drinking (even to the point where he needed to bring a thermos of booze with him on a walk) when he confessed that he was already hungover that day. Most people don't want to go near alcohol when they are hungover.
posted by cakelite at 7:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 7:28 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
posted by mesija at 7:30 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mesija at 7:30 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Doesn't matter. If you're uncomfortable, bow out. You can reflect on your ability to maintain boundaries later, without someone actively violating them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?)
I live in Wisconsin, which 100% deserves its reputation regarding alcohol, and know people who have done this. Those people are alcoholics. A few months after meeting them, non-alcoholics say things like "in retrospect, the thermos that night should've maybe been a clue..." As a fellow(?) child of an alcoholic, I think that, plus the huge number of beers (total? each? it doesn't even really matter) and whatever dynamic is causing you to match his drinking instead of just leaving as your entirely reasonable "let's have a sober date" boundary gets trampled, means this isn't the guy for you.
posted by teremala at 7:35 AM on March 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
I live in Wisconsin, which 100% deserves its reputation regarding alcohol, and know people who have done this. Those people are alcoholics. A few months after meeting them, non-alcoholics say things like "in retrospect, the thermos that night should've maybe been a clue..." As a fellow(?) child of an alcoholic, I think that, plus the huge number of beers (total? each? it doesn't even really matter) and whatever dynamic is causing you to match his drinking instead of just leaving as your entirely reasonable "let's have a sober date" boundary gets trampled, means this isn't the guy for you.
posted by teremala at 7:35 AM on March 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
You don't have to drink just because, or as much as, he does - there's the question of whether he drinks too much for you to be comfortable around him, and there's the question of whether/why you can't have one beer while he's having six.
he pretty clearly does drink too much for your comfort. but if you date other non-problem drinkers in the future, it will help a lot of you don't feel some internal pressure to get drunk just because your companion does. going to a bar should be a joint decision, but how much to drink shouldn't be a "we" decision in that way. you have total sovereignty there.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:36 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
he pretty clearly does drink too much for your comfort. but if you date other non-problem drinkers in the future, it will help a lot of you don't feel some internal pressure to get drunk just because your companion does. going to a bar should be a joint decision, but how much to drink shouldn't be a "we" decision in that way. you have total sovereignty there.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:36 AM on March 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: One thing I think is interesting is that all of your descriptions are framed as "We had X beers," so that when you say, for example, "We had six beers," I can't tell if that's six beers each or six beers shared between you, three apiece. I assume it's the former, but more important than the amount consumed, to me, is the underlying assumption on your part that you're going to drink exactly as much as he does, even if it's "too much for your taste." Your strategy for managing the situation is to try and plan hangouts in a "sober environment," -- that is, to control how much he drinks, rather than focusing what is actually your responsibility: the amount of alcohol you consume.
I say this from experience: regardless of whether the amount he drinks is troubling in its own right, you are already in a codependent dynamic, where you're trying to assume ownership of his sobriety, and making him responsible to you, rather than himself, for how much he drinks--and vice-versa.
The next time you go on a date, if you do, instead of trying to have a conversation about his drinking, or trying to map out strategies for keeping him sober by going on hikes, just drink exactly as much as you yourself feel comfortable with--one beer, two beers, or none and then stop. Don't talk about it, don't make a thing of it, just do it and see what happens.
If that's hard for either of you -- if he starts to give you a hard time, or if, sober, you find yourself repulsed by seeing him drunk, or if you find yourself drinking much more than you'd intended to at the beginning of the night, for reasons you find hard to explain...those are all red flags.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:36 AM on March 16, 2018 [40 favorites]
I say this from experience: regardless of whether the amount he drinks is troubling in its own right, you are already in a codependent dynamic, where you're trying to assume ownership of his sobriety, and making him responsible to you, rather than himself, for how much he drinks--and vice-versa.
The next time you go on a date, if you do, instead of trying to have a conversation about his drinking, or trying to map out strategies for keeping him sober by going on hikes, just drink exactly as much as you yourself feel comfortable with--one beer, two beers, or none and then stop. Don't talk about it, don't make a thing of it, just do it and see what happens.
If that's hard for either of you -- if he starts to give you a hard time, or if, sober, you find yourself repulsed by seeing him drunk, or if you find yourself drinking much more than you'd intended to at the beginning of the night, for reasons you find hard to explain...those are all red flags.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:36 AM on March 16, 2018 [40 favorites]
What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
That's something to address, but it doesn't change this situation at all.
Also the best partners, while sometimes they do need boundaries, hear you the first time and seek to change their behaviour -- not just delay a few hours to the next beer, and keep pushing to drink. That's not going to work out. Even if you had ninja boundary skills, the boundary would be "stop or I don't date you" or "If you're drinking, I'm going home" or "you have a beer but I'm not" and I'm betting you would end up pretty quickly at not-dating.
You should not need to be a perfect-boundary-managing person to have a partner who a) listens to you and b) doesn't drink all the time.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:38 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
That's something to address, but it doesn't change this situation at all.
Also the best partners, while sometimes they do need boundaries, hear you the first time and seek to change their behaviour -- not just delay a few hours to the next beer, and keep pushing to drink. That's not going to work out. Even if you had ninja boundary skills, the boundary would be "stop or I don't date you" or "If you're drinking, I'm going home" or "you have a beer but I'm not" and I'm betting you would end up pretty quickly at not-dating.
You should not need to be a perfect-boundary-managing person to have a partner who a) listens to you and b) doesn't drink all the time.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:38 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
Hey, I wrote my earlier reply before you answered this, and I want to emphasize this now. Your boundaries aren't shaky because you "allow drinking to happen" on dates. You have no control over how much he drinks. The idea that once you start drinking, he has "permission" to drink, too, and then the mutual drinking is your responsibility...oof. That idea itself is what represents a shaky boundary, because it blurs the lines between what you're responsible for (you) and what you're not (him).
I say this as a fellow member: try out an Al-Anon meeting in your area. I think you will really find it helpful. I'm thinking of you. Good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:41 AM on March 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
Hey, I wrote my earlier reply before you answered this, and I want to emphasize this now. Your boundaries aren't shaky because you "allow drinking to happen" on dates. You have no control over how much he drinks. The idea that once you start drinking, he has "permission" to drink, too, and then the mutual drinking is your responsibility...oof. That idea itself is what represents a shaky boundary, because it blurs the lines between what you're responsible for (you) and what you're not (him).
I say this as a fellow member: try out an Al-Anon meeting in your area. I think you will really find it helpful. I'm thinking of you. Good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:41 AM on March 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
You're not enabling someone you've only known for 5 dates, because you don't have any control over such a person. You're not "allowing" anything - what would you do, knock it out of his hand, dump it on the ground? You're not his parent. You are gliding past the boundaries you set for yourself. Don't worry about his behavior; the only thing you can control is yours.
He's probably going to be real sweet to you now because alcoholics are master manipulators (otherwise they would never have anyone in their lives). I bet his charm is part of what attracted you to him; average dude + heavy drinker does not = dates. And/or he's really good in bed. So you're probably going to be tempted to excuse this. I advise you to print this question out and put it where you'll see it if he texts/calls.
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
You're not enabling someone you've only known for 5 dates, because you don't have any control over such a person. You're not "allowing" anything - what would you do, knock it out of his hand, dump it on the ground? You're not his parent. You are gliding past the boundaries you set for yourself. Don't worry about his behavior; the only thing you can control is yours.
He's probably going to be real sweet to you now because alcoholics are master manipulators (otherwise they would never have anyone in their lives). I bet his charm is part of what attracted you to him; average dude + heavy drinker does not = dates. And/or he's really good in bed. So you're probably going to be tempted to excuse this. I advise you to print this question out and put it where you'll see it if he texts/calls.
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: One thing I think is interesting is that all of your descriptions are framed as "We had X beers," so that when you say, for example, "We had six beers," I can't tell if that's six beers each or six beers shared between you, three apiece. I assume it's the former, but more important than the amount consumed, to me, is the underlying assumption on your part that you're going to drink exactly as much as he does, even if it's "too much for your taste."
When I say we had 6 beers, I mean each had 6.
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
posted by mesija at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
When I say we had 6 beers, I mean each had 6.
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
posted by mesija at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking
So, I am also a survivor of domestic abuse, and this is something I think we were trained to do in our abusive relationships. I was always held responsible for things that were totally out of my control and actually had nothing to do with me, including being abused. "I wouldn't have acted that way if you had just [done a different, arbitrary thing]!" was a constant. It was my fault he was yelling at me, or hurting me. Abusers create and reinforce this dynamic. It's part and parcel of the abuse.
I'm not saying this dude is abusive, I'm saying that you have been trained to take responsibility for his actions based on your experiences.
I don't really trust my own judgement around romantic relationships, and I'm full of doubt.
Yeah, I hear this. I get it. Therapy helped me some with this. Setting my bars way higher than others might has also helped. When I have been full of doubt and unsure about dating, at least for me that was a good sign that I was not currently in a place to be dating.
Take care and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 7:49 AM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
So, I am also a survivor of domestic abuse, and this is something I think we were trained to do in our abusive relationships. I was always held responsible for things that were totally out of my control and actually had nothing to do with me, including being abused. "I wouldn't have acted that way if you had just [done a different, arbitrary thing]!" was a constant. It was my fault he was yelling at me, or hurting me. Abusers create and reinforce this dynamic. It's part and parcel of the abuse.
I'm not saying this dude is abusive, I'm saying that you have been trained to take responsibility for his actions based on your experiences.
I don't really trust my own judgement around romantic relationships, and I'm full of doubt.
Yeah, I hear this. I get it. Therapy helped me some with this. Setting my bars way higher than others might has also helped. When I have been full of doubt and unsure about dating, at least for me that was a good sign that I was not currently in a place to be dating.
Take care and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 7:49 AM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
My husband drank a ton when we first started dating (he is the child of two alcoholics; my parents drink about once a decade - and we were about the same ages as you and your guy -- I was 26, he was 34). I'm talking those 1/2 gallon plastic jugs of rum at the liquor store, and rum & Cokes from the minute he got home from work until bed, progressively getting more rummy and less Cokey. I've never been a huge drinker but when I met him, it was fun, so I participated. Then I'd go over to his place sometimes sober, and want to hang out and play a game or something, but he'd have friends over and they'd be drinking and playing darts and I'd just leave. After a month or two of this, we were together one night and he fell UP the stairs in his apartment complex and broke his glasses, and I told him I wasn't up for this kind of a relationship.
He actually thought our relationship was important enough that he knocked it off with the drinking. He'd been going through a phase where he'd broken up with someone when I met him, and was lonely, and the friends in his building did that "gather at someone's apartment and get loaded" thing at night. We've been together almost 12 years, married for about 2, and it's never been an issue again. We keep beer in the house usually, and he'll have one or two a couple of nights a week, but never more than that.
So what I'm saying is I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't be in charge of monitoring this guy's drinking, but if you really like him, it wouldn't hurt to tell him that it's the booze or you and see what his priorities are before breaking it off for good.
posted by jabes at 7:53 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
He actually thought our relationship was important enough that he knocked it off with the drinking. He'd been going through a phase where he'd broken up with someone when I met him, and was lonely, and the friends in his building did that "gather at someone's apartment and get loaded" thing at night. We've been together almost 12 years, married for about 2, and it's never been an issue again. We keep beer in the house usually, and he'll have one or two a couple of nights a week, but never more than that.
So what I'm saying is I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't be in charge of monitoring this guy's drinking, but if you really like him, it wouldn't hurt to tell him that it's the booze or you and see what his priorities are before breaking it off for good.
posted by jabes at 7:53 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
It is true that I'm an expert people-pleaser and usually put others before me in hopes to deserve decent behavior towards me.
Decent behaviour needs to be expected by default. The only way that A ever fails to deserve decent behavior from B is if A has a consistent history of being a complete arsehole at B's expense.
Bright line rule. Stamp it into your brain.
posted by flabdablet at 7:58 AM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
Decent behaviour needs to be expected by default. The only way that A ever fails to deserve decent behavior from B is if A has a consistent history of being a complete arsehole at B's expense.
Bright line rule. Stamp it into your brain.
posted by flabdablet at 7:58 AM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
You haven't done anything to contribute to his drinking. He is an adult and you have no responsibility for him at all. You have asked him to limit or abstain from drinking and he has ignored your requests. He is showing himself to be a person with poor boundaries and, furthermore, he's disrespecting the ones you've put up. That's not okay in any kind of relationship.
The idea of "enabling" gets tossed around a lot (I've been to Al-Anon, ACOA, etc.) and I think it's a load of BS that just shifts the blame for drinking to everyone but the alcoholic. Not unlike the language around rape and assault (i.e., if you hadn't been wearing the sexy Halloween costume, maybe he wouldn't have thought he had your consent to have sex). Besides having therapy (if it's available to you), another thing that's helped me to check whether I'm having a good perspective on things is to ask myself, if my BFF Jane were in this situation and asking me for advice, what would I say? It's usually pretty affirming of the little spidey voice inside that I'm too nervous to trust.
posted by stillmoving at 8:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
You haven't done anything to contribute to his drinking. He is an adult and you have no responsibility for him at all. You have asked him to limit or abstain from drinking and he has ignored your requests. He is showing himself to be a person with poor boundaries and, furthermore, he's disrespecting the ones you've put up. That's not okay in any kind of relationship.
The idea of "enabling" gets tossed around a lot (I've been to Al-Anon, ACOA, etc.) and I think it's a load of BS that just shifts the blame for drinking to everyone but the alcoholic. Not unlike the language around rape and assault (i.e., if you hadn't been wearing the sexy Halloween costume, maybe he wouldn't have thought he had your consent to have sex). Besides having therapy (if it's available to you), another thing that's helped me to check whether I'm having a good perspective on things is to ask myself, if my BFF Jane were in this situation and asking me for advice, what would I say? It's usually pretty affirming of the little spidey voice inside that I'm too nervous to trust.
posted by stillmoving at 8:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
flabdablet speaks the truth.
It's obvious to me that this guy drinks way, way too much.
Others have said stuff better than I about taking and owning what is yours, knowing what's your responsibility and what's not. I won't add to that.
I will suggest this, and it is only a suggestion, so ignore it if it doesn't work for you: you don't like drinking in yourself or others, it makes you worried.
So why not drop your own consumption to rarely or never, and also only date people whose consumption matches yours? Or at least, invert the model so that you only date people whose drinking matches yours, instead of matching your drinking to whoever you're with. You'll have fewer people to date, but all of us only ever have a few people who are really compatible with us anyway. And it will really cut down on one source of anxiety.
posted by tel3path at 8:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's obvious to me that this guy drinks way, way too much.
Others have said stuff better than I about taking and owning what is yours, knowing what's your responsibility and what's not. I won't add to that.
I will suggest this, and it is only a suggestion, so ignore it if it doesn't work for you: you don't like drinking in yourself or others, it makes you worried.
So why not drop your own consumption to rarely or never, and also only date people whose consumption matches yours? Or at least, invert the model so that you only date people whose drinking matches yours, instead of matching your drinking to whoever you're with. You'll have fewer people to date, but all of us only ever have a few people who are really compatible with us anyway. And it will really cut down on one source of anxiety.
posted by tel3path at 8:12 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm the child of an alcoholic who is the child of an alcoholic, and I'm the sibling of two alcoholics. So for most of my life I drank very very little (like, half a glass of champagne on New Years' little) and now I don't drink at all. I'd rather not become an alcoholic myself, you know?
I can't even abide the smell of alcohol on someone's breath, so the level of drinking this guy does is frankly revolting to me. And it's dangerous for you to mirror it, because if there's alcoholism in your family, you may very well have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism.
I think you should drop him and find someone with compatible values who also doesn't treat you like crap. There are a ton of guys out there who fit that description.
posted by invincible summer at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2018
I can't even abide the smell of alcohol on someone's breath, so the level of drinking this guy does is frankly revolting to me. And it's dangerous for you to mirror it, because if there's alcoholism in your family, you may very well have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism.
I think you should drop him and find someone with compatible values who also doesn't treat you like crap. There are a ton of guys out there who fit that description.
posted by invincible summer at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2018
How do I bring up my unease about alcohol without coming off as if I'm trying to change him after 5 dates?
I agree with others that you probably want to walk away rather than try to change him. However, in case it helps, this is how I, someone with no history of alcoholics in my life, brought up my unease with drinking habits after a similar number of dates and semi-dates.
The usual date pattern was that I'd reach my happy level of tipsiness and want to go home or find some food or even just drink somewhere else. She'd insist on staying where we were to drink more and I'd either nurse one more drink or switch to something non-alcoholic while she powered through a few more beers. We'd then go to one of our houses for some frankly rather sloppy sex and she would stay awake into the early hours drinking and watching TV while I slept.
One evening we were annoyed with each other in a bar because she wanted to go and I wanted to stay. I said something like "Listen, I want you to know that I'm not trying to judge you or change you and that you should keep on doing what you want. However, I don't like drinking the amount that you like drinking and I don't really enjoy our time together after you've drunk more than 3 beers. I don't mind if you have some evenings when you drink more, but I don't want to hang out with you at those times. I still want to see you though. This isn't a judgement on you, I'm not trying to change you, I'm just saying that I want to spend time with you doing something other than drinking 6 beers."
She became quite quiet, but didn't seem angry. I saw her once more after that, during the day, then we lost touch.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I agree with others that you probably want to walk away rather than try to change him. However, in case it helps, this is how I, someone with no history of alcoholics in my life, brought up my unease with drinking habits after a similar number of dates and semi-dates.
The usual date pattern was that I'd reach my happy level of tipsiness and want to go home or find some food or even just drink somewhere else. She'd insist on staying where we were to drink more and I'd either nurse one more drink or switch to something non-alcoholic while she powered through a few more beers. We'd then go to one of our houses for some frankly rather sloppy sex and she would stay awake into the early hours drinking and watching TV while I slept.
One evening we were annoyed with each other in a bar because she wanted to go and I wanted to stay. I said something like "Listen, I want you to know that I'm not trying to judge you or change you and that you should keep on doing what you want. However, I don't like drinking the amount that you like drinking and I don't really enjoy our time together after you've drunk more than 3 beers. I don't mind if you have some evenings when you drink more, but I don't want to hang out with you at those times. I still want to see you though. This isn't a judgement on you, I'm not trying to change you, I'm just saying that I want to spend time with you doing something other than drinking 6 beers."
She became quite quiet, but didn't seem angry. I saw her once more after that, during the day, then we lost touch.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 8:17 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky
Absolutely not. He's an adult, he's capable of reason and he made his own choices. You can decide if this means you should question/change your own drinking behavior, but unless you forced a drink down his throat, his behavior is his responsibility and his alone.
posted by capricorn at 8:20 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Absolutely not. He's an adult, he's capable of reason and he made his own choices. You can decide if this means you should question/change your own drinking behavior, but unless you forced a drink down his throat, his behavior is his responsibility and his alone.
posted by capricorn at 8:20 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think it's pretty clear that the dynamic with this guy is kind of off, but for future reference:
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
It's hard to tell whether you're experiencing social pressure or perceived social pressure when it comes to drinking. Some people, especially those who believe their own habits are problematic, become defensive if they think you're judging their drinking. It's possible to be around those people enough that you anticipate that reaction, and drink more than you expected to, because you anticipate their negative reaction.
For what it's worth, it's completely normal to have a group of people where the number of drinks consumed varies. Especially when it's mixed company with people of different sizes, ages, etc., with no badgering or shaming if someone isn't "keeping up." It becomes a problem when one person is much more interested in getting much drunker.
posted by mikeh at 8:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
It's hard to tell whether you're experiencing social pressure or perceived social pressure when it comes to drinking. Some people, especially those who believe their own habits are problematic, become defensive if they think you're judging their drinking. It's possible to be around those people enough that you anticipate that reaction, and drink more than you expected to, because you anticipate their negative reaction.
For what it's worth, it's completely normal to have a group of people where the number of drinks consumed varies. Especially when it's mixed company with people of different sizes, ages, etc., with no badgering or shaming if someone isn't "keeping up." It becomes a problem when one person is much more interested in getting much drunker.
posted by mikeh at 8:26 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's a lot of drinking for me, and I like to drink. That's like vacation in the Virgin Islands level drinking. Makes total sense to be wary of it.
Fair warning: It's going to be tough for him to understand, since you met in a drinking environment and he probably thinks he found his match who can meet him drink for drink and make him feel unselfconscious about drinking so much. This isn't at all your fault, it's just a way I'd expect someone with a problem-drinking psychology to react. It's disappointing when you think you've found someone who will go along with you in your bad habits without judging and it turns out you were wrong. People with problematic habits tend to get defensive and reactionary about them because they serve as coping mechanisms they are afraid to live without.
If something makes you uncomfortable don't run away from that feeling. Trust it. If he won't attenuate his drinking then stop seeing him and feel no regret about it.
posted by dis_integration at 8:29 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Fair warning: It's going to be tough for him to understand, since you met in a drinking environment and he probably thinks he found his match who can meet him drink for drink and make him feel unselfconscious about drinking so much. This isn't at all your fault, it's just a way I'd expect someone with a problem-drinking psychology to react. It's disappointing when you think you've found someone who will go along with you in your bad habits without judging and it turns out you were wrong. People with problematic habits tend to get defensive and reactionary about them because they serve as coping mechanisms they are afraid to live without.
If something makes you uncomfortable don't run away from that feeling. Trust it. If he won't attenuate his drinking then stop seeing him and feel no regret about it.
posted by dis_integration at 8:29 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
After you had a discussion and agreement that every other date would be sober, a person with healthy boundaries would have observed that, especially in the early phases of a relationship when you're on your best behavior. Since that ended up out the window, it suggests that he either doesn't take your desires seriously, or can't control his own impulses. If you had said on your first date, "I'm really trying to eat healthy, can we do low-calorie stuff at least every other date", but ended up at an ice cream parlor after dinner at every date, would you feel better about saying something?
posted by skewed at 8:47 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by skewed at 8:47 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
You still obsess over someone else's drinking, so whether that's five beers or one beer or two bottles of wine or whatever, the problem is your obsession with it, not the drinking itself. You can't control another person's drinking, especially a virtual stranger!
I'm not sure if you've ever tried Al-Anon, but it might really help you get a better handle on your boundaries and let go of the obsession. You say you don't trust your own judgement, and that's something that can get better with conscious practice. It took you many years to learn the coping mechanisms you created to live your life with alcoholics. You can't expect those ingrained coping mechanisms to disappear when the alcoholics do.
posted by juniperesque at 8:58 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if you've ever tried Al-Anon, but it might really help you get a better handle on your boundaries and let go of the obsession. You say you don't trust your own judgement, and that's something that can get better with conscious practice. It took you many years to learn the coping mechanisms you created to live your life with alcoholics. You can't expect those ingrained coping mechanisms to disappear when the alcoholics do.
posted by juniperesque at 8:58 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen
To give you a bit of extra perspective on this, replace drinking for sex, drugs, watching porn, or anything else that's extremely about personal preferences.
In other words, hearing someone say "I'd rather we didn't do X tonight" and then going on to suggest it/start doing it anyway, is kind of weird, slightly gross, and disrespectful.
posted by greenish at 8:59 AM on March 16, 2018
To give you a bit of extra perspective on this, replace drinking for sex, drugs, watching porn, or anything else that's extremely about personal preferences.
In other words, hearing someone say "I'd rather we didn't do X tonight" and then going on to suggest it/start doing it anyway, is kind of weird, slightly gross, and disrespectful.
posted by greenish at 8:59 AM on March 16, 2018
Another drinker here who thinks this is a lot of drinking in the context of dates with a new person. A thermos for a walk or five drinks in an evening wouldn't be so strange with established friends who are all mutually-acknowledged drinkers, but on first, second, third dates with a new person--who already expressed discomfort with alcohol!--that's real tacky.
We agreed to balance it out and drink only every second date, but that's not how it played out although I tried to plan the dates around other activities.
You should not have to be negotiating a drinking schedule at this point. But regardless, it was a drinking schedule that he did not respect for even two seconds. It didn't "play out that way" because he Just. Does. Not. Care. about your boundaries.
Your judgement led you to make some notes about his drinking behavior and ask this question, so ahead and trust it. What your judgement is telling you is that he's already disrespecting you, and it's unlikely to get better. It's not really about alcohol specifically, it's about the way he tells you something you want to hear, then goes on his merry way doing the same thing and doesn't notice or care that it's a turnoff for you.
posted by desuetude at 9:01 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
We agreed to balance it out and drink only every second date, but that's not how it played out although I tried to plan the dates around other activities.
You should not have to be negotiating a drinking schedule at this point. But regardless, it was a drinking schedule that he did not respect for even two seconds. It didn't "play out that way" because he Just. Does. Not. Care. about your boundaries.
Your judgement led you to make some notes about his drinking behavior and ask this question, so ahead and trust it. What your judgement is telling you is that he's already disrespecting you, and it's unlikely to get better. It's not really about alcohol specifically, it's about the way he tells you something you want to hear, then goes on his merry way doing the same thing and doesn't notice or care that it's a turnoff for you.
posted by desuetude at 9:01 AM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but what is his behavior like when he has been drinking several beers at a time?
The reason I ask is that as a recovering alcoholic myself, sure my alcohol intake was an issue, however the unpredictability and irrationality of my behavior was an even greater problem. Especially when I was under the influence of alcohol.
I'm concerned about your safety when you have been drinking and are around this guy who has also been drinking heavily. I would hope he wouldn't try to hurt you under the influence, but believe me when I say I've seen some bad shit in my experience from people "in their cups" so to speak.
Btw, thermos of hot booze on a first date! I've never even done that and I'm a professional lush. Sounds like something I might do though.
tl;dr There are many more fish in the sea. Find one that is a better fit. Good luck.
posted by strelitzia at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
The reason I ask is that as a recovering alcoholic myself, sure my alcohol intake was an issue, however the unpredictability and irrationality of my behavior was an even greater problem. Especially when I was under the influence of alcohol.
I'm concerned about your safety when you have been drinking and are around this guy who has also been drinking heavily. I would hope he wouldn't try to hurt you under the influence, but believe me when I say I've seen some bad shit in my experience from people "in their cups" so to speak.
Btw, thermos of hot booze on a first date! I've never even done that and I'm a professional lush. Sounds like something I might do though.
tl;dr There are many more fish in the sea. Find one that is a better fit. Good luck.
posted by strelitzia at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
What jumps out to me is not the drinking at dinner, but the fact that you mentioned he was hungover multiple times, which shows he does a lot of drinking when he's not around you too, and that he brought hot booze in a thermos for a walk, which is strange.
I don't know what conversation you can really have with this guy -- you've gone out five times and it seems like this is who he is. He agreed to not drink every date, but it sounds like it isn't happening and he's pushing to make drinking part of every date. First red flag that he doesn't respect your boundaries. I'd probably try to find a guy who's a good fit without all the booziness.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:23 AM on March 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't know what conversation you can really have with this guy -- you've gone out five times and it seems like this is who he is. He agreed to not drink every date, but it sounds like it isn't happening and he's pushing to make drinking part of every date. First red flag that he doesn't respect your boundaries. I'd probably try to find a guy who's a good fit without all the booziness.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:23 AM on March 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't think anything you describe is normal. I'm a lifelong tippler and come from a culture where drink is very important socially, a duty to serve even in the right situations. A few (1-4) drinks a few (1-2) times a week is about normal to me, given a few decades experience. Choosing not to imbibe at all is also and always totally normal too.
The behaviour you describe would be outside my comfort zone too. I've also lived with secret alcoholics and this does recall that time to me too, especially the continual hang-overs.
posted by bonehead at 9:24 AM on March 16, 2018
The behaviour you describe would be outside my comfort zone too. I've also lived with secret alcoholics and this does recall that time to me too, especially the continual hang-overs.
posted by bonehead at 9:24 AM on March 16, 2018
Maybe you are wondering if you could write his drinking off on dates with you to "early dating nerves" in need of a social lubricant (alcohol), and if it would lessen after you've dated a bit longer and feel more comfortable with each other. If so, please keep in mind that you've seen him seriously hung over on 2 dates already, which means he was drinking A LOT the night before, without the need to calm down the "new dating nerves." He just loves drinking.
Bringing a hot spiked drink for a cold weather first date wouldn't raise a red flag for me, but drinking 6 beers at dinner and being hung over as often as he is, most definitely would. Unfortunately, I speak from experience.
posted by LakeDream at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bringing a hot spiked drink for a cold weather first date wouldn't raise a red flag for me, but drinking 6 beers at dinner and being hung over as often as he is, most definitely would. Unfortunately, I speak from experience.
posted by LakeDream at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: For what it's worth, his behavior doesn't change that much while drinking - he gets more chatty, touchy and giggly. But I'm not a huge fan of alcohol-fueled intimacy.
I guess I have extended the benefit of doubt a bit too far in this case.
Thank you all for input. I haven't looked into Al-Anon, but I see a therapist occasionally, might be worth it bringing this up.
posted by mesija at 9:43 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess I have extended the benefit of doubt a bit too far in this case.
Thank you all for input. I haven't looked into Al-Anon, but I see a therapist occasionally, might be worth it bringing this up.
posted by mesija at 9:43 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
To set the record straight, the first date did involve temperatures well below zero and serious amounts of snow, but I guess it doesn't exactly make everything right.
This is when you bring a thermos of hot chocolate. Alcohol is absolutely not necessary and might even be actively dangerous.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:00 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is when you bring a thermos of hot chocolate. Alcohol is absolutely not necessary and might even be actively dangerous.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:00 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best of luck. The question has been sufficiently answered, but in the end, I hope you take this away: Trust yourself and trust your feelings.
Even if we all said it was a "normal" amount of alcohol (which it isnt'), if you're not ok with it, you don't have to be ok with it. It's perfectly legitimate to dump someone because they drink any alcohol.
It's your life to do with as you please and to spend time with whomever you want. You should enjoy your time and not be worrying about the other person in the relationship.
If you need an easy out from this guy, just tell him the truth, that you drink more than you want to when you're with him. That keeps it from feeling like a judgement against him (if you want to preserve that for his sake).
posted by hydra77 at 11:18 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Even if we all said it was a "normal" amount of alcohol (which it isnt'), if you're not ok with it, you don't have to be ok with it. It's perfectly legitimate to dump someone because they drink any alcohol.
It's your life to do with as you please and to spend time with whomever you want. You should enjoy your time and not be worrying about the other person in the relationship.
If you need an easy out from this guy, just tell him the truth, that you drink more than you want to when you're with him. That keeps it from feeling like a judgement against him (if you want to preserve that for his sake).
posted by hydra77 at 11:18 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
You asked for any input, OP, so here’s mine: Al-Anon is a really great place to learn what boundaries you want for yourself and how to enforce them. After growing up in an alcoholic household, I had no idea what was normal nor what I wanted for myself. I had to go through romances with several other alcoholics in order to find Al-Anon and learn how to take care of myself by saying no to situations and to individuals who were not healthy for me. So consider going to 6 dfferent Al-Anon meetings to see if you can find one or more that work for you. It is impossible to control other people’s behaviour but you can control the company you keep. Getting healthier is a process; don’t be discouraged if it takes longer than you like. Clearly, you are learning to take care of yourself because you asked this question. Congrats!
posted by Bella Donna at 12:05 PM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:05 PM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't know whether this points to a problem in future, but:
When I started dating my ex there was alcohol present every single time for the first few months. Wine with dinner, going for drinks out etc. I'm actually not a big drinker so after initially matching him I started opting out of the drinking part of our dates. He kept drinking, though. It took me a while but I eventually started wondering about it...
4.5 years later I finally managed to leave my relationship with a functional alcoholic, who is still a functional alcoholic despite all my 'work'. I wish that I'd followed my initial instincts and got out sooner, but I was 25. What a waste of years!
posted by thereader at 12:16 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I started dating my ex there was alcohol present every single time for the first few months. Wine with dinner, going for drinks out etc. I'm actually not a big drinker so after initially matching him I started opting out of the drinking part of our dates. He kept drinking, though. It took me a while but I eventually started wondering about it...
4.5 years later I finally managed to leave my relationship with a functional alcoholic, who is still a functional alcoholic despite all my 'work'. I wish that I'd followed my initial instincts and got out sooner, but I was 25. What a waste of years!
posted by thereader at 12:16 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Others have commented on the amount of booze and your comfort level with it. (For what it’s worth, I too find bringing a thermos of hot toddy on a first date to be odd.)
I think you need to start taking some agency on your dates, though. Several times you mentioned “we wound up at a bar.” How? You didn’t just magically wind up there. Speak your mind. If you don’t want to go to a bar on a date, say so. This applies not just to this guy but to any future dates with anyone.
posted by sunflower16 at 1:03 PM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think you need to start taking some agency on your dates, though. Several times you mentioned “we wound up at a bar.” How? You didn’t just magically wind up there. Speak your mind. If you don’t want to go to a bar on a date, say so. This applies not just to this guy but to any future dates with anyone.
posted by sunflower16 at 1:03 PM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
He's not kind or a good communicator if you told him your concerns, agreed to drink every other date and then ended up drinking anyway. He's ignoring the very reasonable line you set -- unkind and dismissive. If he were truly good at communication, he'd have told you when you asked that he's a heavy drinker and unwilling to compromise. At best he doesn't know himself. At worst he's deliberately breaking his word. That's not a good sign for a new date.
posted by fritillary at 1:05 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fritillary at 1:05 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
You’ve been on five dates and on several have asked for non-drinking dates. Those haven’t happened. I would say it’s fine to decline a sixth date.
posted by zippy at 1:06 PM on March 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by zippy at 1:06 PM on March 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I didn't see the bit about drinking 'every second date' before.
I think that whenever you have to put limits on it like this it is a problem. My ex used to agree to limits like this all the time, only to end up resentful and feeling like I was his mother.
It was a revelation to me when, in my subsequent relationship, there was no need to set limits because there was no problem in the first place.
posted by thereader at 1:29 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that whenever you have to put limits on it like this it is a problem. My ex used to agree to limits like this all the time, only to end up resentful and feeling like I was his mother.
It was a revelation to me when, in my subsequent relationship, there was no need to set limits because there was no problem in the first place.
posted by thereader at 1:29 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Once a million years ago, I let a guy pick me up at a bar. It was early, I was waiting for a friend to get off work. She said, go for it, he's cute, meet me afterward and tell me all about it. He was a Brit, in town on business, so I knew immediately there'd be no strings. I figured, what the hell.
We went to an expensive, well-known steakhouse downtown where we were told there was an hour and a half wait. I wanted to bail and go somewhere else but the steakhouse gave us a voucher for two free glasses of champagne for the bar across the street to drink while we waited. Well, that was like manna from heaven for this guy - free drinks? Let's go! So over we went.
Long story short, he slammed his champagne immediately and proceeded to get completely shit-faced in about 30 minutes. Hard booze, a couple of Dewar's on the rocks in that time on top of the champagne.
Somewhere during his third Dewar's he disappeared from our end of the bar. He was gone for about 15 minutes, actually, but I didn't mind; he was bland and kind of distracted and I was glad for the break. I thought he might have gone to check on our table, or something, so I got up and went to the front of the bar to look for him. There he was with a woman, laughing it up, and when he saw me, he waved me over. He told her to kiss me on the mouth to loosen me up a little. She was really drunk, too, and moved in to kiss me. And at that moment I realized like a blast of cold air that I wanted to get the hell out of there. I ducked, said I was going to the ladies room, and went immediately outside. I hailed the first cab smoking and went back to the bar and entertained my friend with my "adventure" while she worked the rest of her shift. Never saw him again.
I didn't stop drinking or anything after that but I did realize that, for some people, the only thing to do while drinking is get shit-faced. They don't drink to get loose or enjoy something interesting and fun, they drink because they have no internal navigation system and they are constantly trying to figure out where plumb center is in every way - chemically, emotionally, physically, psychically, you name it. They don't know where they're going, they just know they don't want to be where they are. I was still relatively sober compared to this guy, and it made me see how awful that level of alcohol consumption was for a person, and how it really made a person behave. He was....gross and sad. And I wouldn't have been able to see it if I hadn't been one glass of champagne in to his four full drinks.
You can choose not to drink as much as the other person. You can choose to stay or go at any time during a date. You're not their at the other person's pleasure. You don't serve them.
Good luck.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 2:07 PM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
We went to an expensive, well-known steakhouse downtown where we were told there was an hour and a half wait. I wanted to bail and go somewhere else but the steakhouse gave us a voucher for two free glasses of champagne for the bar across the street to drink while we waited. Well, that was like manna from heaven for this guy - free drinks? Let's go! So over we went.
Long story short, he slammed his champagne immediately and proceeded to get completely shit-faced in about 30 minutes. Hard booze, a couple of Dewar's on the rocks in that time on top of the champagne.
Somewhere during his third Dewar's he disappeared from our end of the bar. He was gone for about 15 minutes, actually, but I didn't mind; he was bland and kind of distracted and I was glad for the break. I thought he might have gone to check on our table, or something, so I got up and went to the front of the bar to look for him. There he was with a woman, laughing it up, and when he saw me, he waved me over. He told her to kiss me on the mouth to loosen me up a little. She was really drunk, too, and moved in to kiss me. And at that moment I realized like a blast of cold air that I wanted to get the hell out of there. I ducked, said I was going to the ladies room, and went immediately outside. I hailed the first cab smoking and went back to the bar and entertained my friend with my "adventure" while she worked the rest of her shift. Never saw him again.
I didn't stop drinking or anything after that but I did realize that, for some people, the only thing to do while drinking is get shit-faced. They don't drink to get loose or enjoy something interesting and fun, they drink because they have no internal navigation system and they are constantly trying to figure out where plumb center is in every way - chemically, emotionally, physically, psychically, you name it. They don't know where they're going, they just know they don't want to be where they are. I was still relatively sober compared to this guy, and it made me see how awful that level of alcohol consumption was for a person, and how it really made a person behave. He was....gross and sad. And I wouldn't have been able to see it if I hadn't been one glass of champagne in to his four full drinks.
You can choose not to drink as much as the other person. You can choose to stay or go at any time during a date. You're not their at the other person's pleasure. You don't serve them.
Good luck.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 2:07 PM on March 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yeah, this guy might be a good person but sounds like he has a drinking problem.
My relationship-seeking strategy when single has been to never go to bars because i don’t want to get involved with the sort of people who go to bars.
I’m sure i’ve “missed out” on meeting people the alternate-universe me would have met, but i’m also sure i’ve weeded out a lot of people with substance-abuse (and other) problems that way. I don’t have a problem with friends or spouses who occasionally drink (and on rare occasion go to a bar with friends), but for many reasons beyond drinking i don’t want to increase my chances of getting involved with someone who spends a lot of their time in bars.
posted by D.C. at 4:07 PM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
My relationship-seeking strategy when single has been to never go to bars because i don’t want to get involved with the sort of people who go to bars.
I’m sure i’ve “missed out” on meeting people the alternate-universe me would have met, but i’m also sure i’ve weeded out a lot of people with substance-abuse (and other) problems that way. I don’t have a problem with friends or spouses who occasionally drink (and on rare occasion go to a bar with friends), but for many reasons beyond drinking i don’t want to increase my chances of getting involved with someone who spends a lot of their time in bars.
posted by D.C. at 4:07 PM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's a lot of booze, and I'd go with your heart on this.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:11 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by Sebmojo at 4:11 PM on March 16, 2018
Normal Amount of Drinking: In many southern states in the US, that'd be "none." In some places, the amount he's been drinking is normal.
The key details are that (1) it makes you uncomfortable and (2) you tried to negotiate for something else, and he agreed verbally and failed to follow through.
This is a bad foundation for a long-term relationship.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:42 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
The key details are that (1) it makes you uncomfortable and (2) you tried to negotiate for something else, and he agreed verbally and failed to follow through.
This is a bad foundation for a long-term relationship.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:42 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Everyone has already said what I came to say, but I wanted to add that this:
For what it's worth, his behavior doesn't change that much while drinking - he gets more chatty, touchy and giggly.
Is a REAL bad sign. If he needs to get hungover-level drunk and drink an amount that shocks this many social drinkers just to be an affectionate date, that’s a sign a dependency. If he needs 7 beers (plus whatever he had earlier) now, in a few months that could be 10.
posted by kapers at 4:55 PM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, his behavior doesn't change that much while drinking - he gets more chatty, touchy and giggly.
Is a REAL bad sign. If he needs to get hungover-level drunk and drink an amount that shocks this many social drinkers just to be an affectionate date, that’s a sign a dependency. If he needs 7 beers (plus whatever he had earlier) now, in a few months that could be 10.
posted by kapers at 4:55 PM on March 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
What kapers said.
If you see someone putting away huge amounts of alcohol but you've rarely or never seen them the worse for drink - that's what alcoholics get like when they get REALLY far gone.
I've heard this said about a few people I've known. People do not know what they are saying, when they say this. It makes me shudder.
posted by tel3path at 6:12 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you see someone putting away huge amounts of alcohol but you've rarely or never seen them the worse for drink - that's what alcoholics get like when they get REALLY far gone.
I've heard this said about a few people I've known. People do not know what they are saying, when they say this. It makes me shudder.
posted by tel3path at 6:12 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't mind having a drink (I am sipping a beer as I write this, for example), but as everyone has said, this seems seriously excessive and worst of all, like he doesn't respect you and your boundaries.
Over and above that, it often isn't a great idea to match people drink for drink. Especially if you are smaller than the other person or don't drink as often, matching their speed can be a recipe for disaster.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:09 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Over and above that, it often isn't a great idea to match people drink for drink. Especially if you are smaller than the other person or don't drink as often, matching their speed can be a recipe for disaster.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:09 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
What I also worry about is that I feel as if I have enabled or maybe even encouraged all the drinking, because my boundaries are so shaky. I state that I want sober dates, and then allow drinking to happen, which makes the situation problematic on my side as well.
Nope, you are fine. I grew up in a family with an alcoholic parent. I am an occasional drinker and SRS BSNS about drinking boundaries with people I am close to. My partner barely drinks. Which means if we're going to a party and I'm like "Hey I'd just feel better tonight if we're not drinking" he's like "OK cool" and maybe very occasionally he's like "Oh hey I'd really like a beer for reasons, that ok?" and we can talk about it.
In your case you are saying what you want and then it winds up not happening. Which could mean you're being a little flexible in your boundaries (allowable!) but it also means he is doing nothing at all to support your stated boundaries and in fact basically encouraging you to break those.
So whether or not the guy has a problem (I would vote yes, but it doesn't really matter what I think) you guys are DEFINITELY a bad fit. I mean in my life when I was a kid, I could only negotiate with the problem drinker in my life, not actually opt for, you know, NO drinking. As a grown up with a world of options out there, you can start with NO drinking as the norm (If you want) in a partner and work towards what feels more comfortable for you. This is not comfortable for you and it doesn't actually matter why. Worth talking about with a therapist. You shouldn't be asking the drinkier if their drinking (or your attitude towards it) is normal.
posted by jessamyn at 9:00 PM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Nope, you are fine. I grew up in a family with an alcoholic parent. I am an occasional drinker and SRS BSNS about drinking boundaries with people I am close to. My partner barely drinks. Which means if we're going to a party and I'm like "Hey I'd just feel better tonight if we're not drinking" he's like "OK cool" and maybe very occasionally he's like "Oh hey I'd really like a beer for reasons, that ok?" and we can talk about it.
In your case you are saying what you want and then it winds up not happening. Which could mean you're being a little flexible in your boundaries (allowable!) but it also means he is doing nothing at all to support your stated boundaries and in fact basically encouraging you to break those.
So whether or not the guy has a problem (I would vote yes, but it doesn't really matter what I think) you guys are DEFINITELY a bad fit. I mean in my life when I was a kid, I could only negotiate with the problem drinker in my life, not actually opt for, you know, NO drinking. As a grown up with a world of options out there, you can start with NO drinking as the norm (If you want) in a partner and work towards what feels more comfortable for you. This is not comfortable for you and it doesn't actually matter why. Worth talking about with a therapist. You shouldn't be asking the drinkier if their drinking (or your attitude towards it) is normal.
posted by jessamyn at 9:00 PM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
You know what it is with drinking - it's not the amount of consumption in itself that determines whether drinking is of concern - there's no point really counting drinks or drinking occasions, and no magic number which says someone is an alcoholic/not an alcoholic - it's the nature of the individual's relationship with the activity of drinking. The person you're describing is someone whose relationship with drinking alcohol is intimate, everpresent, and very important.
It sounds like, for him, alcohol is a massive priority and a tool he uses daily for whatever reasons he has. His relationship with it clearly dictates a lot of his choices on a daily basis. The thermos drink is an eyebrow raiser (I enjoy drinking, but when I'm around people who are doing what is essentially 'hair of the dog' behavior, that tells me that things have crossed a certain boundary) but just as much of concern is the fact that you both had dinner at your house and, rather than stay inside and be cozy and watch a movie or play cards or make out or whatever - the kind of thing you expect to do on dates when you have dinner at your datee's house - he rallied you both to put your coats on and leave the house to go drink. That's someone who has a set of priorities that is not about developing more human intimacy with you. It would be insulting - what, am I so boring you prefer paying money to sit in a bar than hang out with me at home? - if it weren't just sort of sad.
It can be easy to waste too much time on people like this hoping things will change, mature, get better. Chances are, if drinking is so important to him that he can't change his relationship with it in order to pursue a new romantic interest that he seems to actually like and want, you will continue to play second fiddle to his real first love, and that's not likely to get better with time and familiarity, only worse. Remember, he's newly dating you, and he's showing you what is his best behaviour. You're well within reason to say it's not good enough for you. You do deserve someone who can make you the priority for the time you are together. This doesn't sound like someone who at this time is able to do that.
posted by Miko at 1:49 PM on March 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
It sounds like, for him, alcohol is a massive priority and a tool he uses daily for whatever reasons he has. His relationship with it clearly dictates a lot of his choices on a daily basis. The thermos drink is an eyebrow raiser (I enjoy drinking, but when I'm around people who are doing what is essentially 'hair of the dog' behavior, that tells me that things have crossed a certain boundary) but just as much of concern is the fact that you both had dinner at your house and, rather than stay inside and be cozy and watch a movie or play cards or make out or whatever - the kind of thing you expect to do on dates when you have dinner at your datee's house - he rallied you both to put your coats on and leave the house to go drink. That's someone who has a set of priorities that is not about developing more human intimacy with you. It would be insulting - what, am I so boring you prefer paying money to sit in a bar than hang out with me at home? - if it weren't just sort of sad.
It can be easy to waste too much time on people like this hoping things will change, mature, get better. Chances are, if drinking is so important to him that he can't change his relationship with it in order to pursue a new romantic interest that he seems to actually like and want, you will continue to play second fiddle to his real first love, and that's not likely to get better with time and familiarity, only worse. Remember, he's newly dating you, and he's showing you what is his best behaviour. You're well within reason to say it's not good enough for you. You do deserve someone who can make you the priority for the time you are together. This doesn't sound like someone who at this time is able to do that.
posted by Miko at 1:49 PM on March 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
First date: We meet up for a walk, he brings a hot, boozed up drink in a thermos (strange?), which I decline, but we end up in a bar having 3 beers. Later on he confesses he was hangover that evening.
I drink a fair bit, and this is kinda weird. As others have mentioned "hair of the dog" behaviour is somewhat common, but not on a first date.
(I'm n'thing all the others here who have said "I'm a drinker, but..." and then pointing out some aspect of this behaviour which is problematic. Example: I drink more than I'd like to, which phrasing indicates an issue - connections to insomnia and anxiety/depression make things a bit tricky - but have got no issue with not drinking when in typically alcohol-free situations or especially when someone I'm around actively dislikes it. This guy can't seem to manage that.)
So yeah... early stages of dating are where you do the kind of vetting on whether someone is a prospective partner, and having no respect shown for your boundaries is not a good sign. I'd suggest that this is really a boundaries issue rather than an alcohol issue - if you say "I'm uncomfortable with X", for any value of X, and someone doesn't take minimal effort to look out for your comfort, they're not a good partner.
posted by iffthen at 1:06 AM on March 18, 2018
I drink a fair bit, and this is kinda weird. As others have mentioned "hair of the dog" behaviour is somewhat common, but not on a first date.
(I'm n'thing all the others here who have said "I'm a drinker, but..." and then pointing out some aspect of this behaviour which is problematic. Example: I drink more than I'd like to, which phrasing indicates an issue - connections to insomnia and anxiety/depression make things a bit tricky - but have got no issue with not drinking when in typically alcohol-free situations or especially when someone I'm around actively dislikes it. This guy can't seem to manage that.)
So yeah... early stages of dating are where you do the kind of vetting on whether someone is a prospective partner, and having no respect shown for your boundaries is not a good sign. I'd suggest that this is really a boundaries issue rather than an alcohol issue - if you say "I'm uncomfortable with X", for any value of X, and someone doesn't take minimal effort to look out for your comfort, they're not a good partner.
posted by iffthen at 1:06 AM on March 18, 2018
When I say we had 6 beers, I mean each had 6.
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
As the child of an alcoholic, I think I know why. Alcoholics are incredibly manipulative, as well as insecure/defensive about their drinking habits. I'm going to describe some scenarios I've experienced... they might sound familiar to you.
I personally don't drink at all due to an allergy. My mom doesn't drink either, she just can't handle it and gets tipsy after a few sips. Therefore when we go out for dinner as a family, my dad's preferred level of alcohol consumption really sticks out. He knows that if he orders that fourth beer, one of us will say something.
BUT if I bring my partner, who does drink, my dad will do everything he can to push that limit, under the guise of "We're just guys having a good time and a few drinks." He will order another round of beer even though my partner's glass is still half full. If there's a bottle on the table, my dad will keep topping up my partner's glass so that he can top up his own. If they start out drinking beer, my dad will start ordering harder drinks "as a treat."
Throughout each of these tactics, my dad is counting on my partner to:
a) Not say anything out of politeness
b) Not refuse a drink out of politeness
c) Keep pace with my dad out of politeness
All of this is my dad trying to make his drinking appear more normal. He feels he can "get away with it," as long as he's not the only one drinking that much. Society has made alcohol into a form of social currency. People worry that turning down a drink is an insult to the one who is offering. I've had to have the very awkward conversation with my partner that my dad has a lifelong drinking problem and that he should feel free to say no when he's had enough.
I suspect you felt a great deal of social pressure when your date kept on drinking, especially if he ordered for you or kept bringing another round from the bar. That kind of behavior, that pressure to keep up, is textbook alcoholic behavior. You can absolutely say no - to another drink, OR to another date.
posted by keep it under cover at 10:27 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I really don't know why I feel as if I have to match his drinking. I know I don't have to. Thanks for pointing it out.
As the child of an alcoholic, I think I know why. Alcoholics are incredibly manipulative, as well as insecure/defensive about their drinking habits. I'm going to describe some scenarios I've experienced... they might sound familiar to you.
I personally don't drink at all due to an allergy. My mom doesn't drink either, she just can't handle it and gets tipsy after a few sips. Therefore when we go out for dinner as a family, my dad's preferred level of alcohol consumption really sticks out. He knows that if he orders that fourth beer, one of us will say something.
BUT if I bring my partner, who does drink, my dad will do everything he can to push that limit, under the guise of "We're just guys having a good time and a few drinks." He will order another round of beer even though my partner's glass is still half full. If there's a bottle on the table, my dad will keep topping up my partner's glass so that he can top up his own. If they start out drinking beer, my dad will start ordering harder drinks "as a treat."
Throughout each of these tactics, my dad is counting on my partner to:
a) Not say anything out of politeness
b) Not refuse a drink out of politeness
c) Keep pace with my dad out of politeness
All of this is my dad trying to make his drinking appear more normal. He feels he can "get away with it," as long as he's not the only one drinking that much. Society has made alcohol into a form of social currency. People worry that turning down a drink is an insult to the one who is offering. I've had to have the very awkward conversation with my partner that my dad has a lifelong drinking problem and that he should feel free to say no when he's had enough.
I suspect you felt a great deal of social pressure when your date kept on drinking, especially if he ordered for you or kept bringing another round from the bar. That kind of behavior, that pressure to keep up, is textbook alcoholic behavior. You can absolutely say no - to another drink, OR to another date.
posted by keep it under cover at 10:27 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by beccaj at 6:24 AM on March 16, 2018 [60 favorites]