Rock VS Rock N Roll

January 15, 2018 8:45 AM

Friend insists Rock and Rock N Roll are two seperate things, I use the terms interchangeably, settle a bet?
posted by Cosine to Media & Arts (27 answers total)

Well, they have separate Wikipedia entries for a start:

Rock and roll (often written as rock & roll or rock 'n' roll) is a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s, from African American musical styles such as gospel, jump blues, jazz, boogie woogie, and rhythm and blues, along with country music.
This article is about the 1950s style of music. For the general rock music genre, see Rock music.

Rock music is a broad genre of popular music that originated as "rock and roll" in the United States in the early 1950s, and developed into a range of different styles in the 1960s and later, particularly in the United Kingdom and in the United States.
For the original 1950s style of rock music, see Rock and roll.

posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:49 AM on January 15, 2018 [11 favorites]

When I was a kid in the '70s, I remember Rock Music being used to describe a very large set of musical styles while Rock'n'Roll was a subset of that only used to describe 50's Chuck Berry/Elvis/Buddy Holly type of older music. In the '80s Rock'n'Roll as a term seemed to have a resurgence and was used to talk about contemporary music.
posted by octothorpe at 8:54 AM on January 15, 2018 [5 favorites]

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame uses the two terms interchangeably. It has inducted the likes of Madonna, Bowie and Run DMC. So if they sometimes do differ in usage, it is not that rigid.

I've seen the term "Early Rock and Roll" used to refer to music from the 50's. So that term is either redundant or, what then is "Late Rock and Roll"?
posted by vacapinta at 9:14 AM on January 15, 2018

Having been professionally and semi-professionally involved in the music business for 34 years, I have met a tiny tiny handful of people, all older than I am, who have insisted on separating the two terms, basically using the Wikipedia differences.

The vast majority of actual rock musicians and associated professionals use the terms interchangeably.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:27 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

I'll add to the pile on: your friend is being weird. In normal usage with the vast majority of people, the terms are interchangeable.
posted by uberchet at 9:56 AM on January 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

One is literally the shortening of the other.

While it's not going to win you points in an argument that's in search of an objective point, I'd posit this: defining musical genre is an exercise that is forever looking backward and redefining the past through the lens of the present. If you start from the beginning, rock n' roll began, continuously evolved, and exists today. If you look at the past through the lens of the present, you can find demarcations in style, sound, and geography that might make you decide that there was a style known as "rock n' roll" that eventually sprouted something that you define as "rock."

Neither is wrong, they're just two different views of categorization.
posted by mikeh at 10:13 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

I would never see them as two separate things, but I could be convinced that R&R is a subset of Rock. Similar to the other answers, it would contain the music of the earlier decades before the genre became more diverse.
posted by soelo at 10:16 AM on January 15, 2018 [7 favorites]

Rock vs Pop vs Classical vs Folk vs Indie etc. - these are the typical broad genres.

Rock = Rock and Roll
Pop = Popular Music
Indie = Independent

They are the same. As mikeh says, one is just a shorter version of the other.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 10:21 AM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure how old the people soundguy99 is referring to are, but fwiw, I'm 42 and think of the two as loosely overlapping along the lines laid out in the Wikipedia definition linked above. "Rock" to me is a bigger umbrella - I could refer to, say, Nirvana songs as rock music and still sleep at night, but I don't think I would call them rock and roll.
posted by DingoMutt at 10:39 AM on January 15, 2018 [10 favorites]

I'm one of the people who draws a distinction, but I'm also someone who realizes that boundaries between genres are flimsy and ultimately meaningless. So while I wouldn't describe, say, Bon Jovi as "rock and roll", I wouldn't quibble if you did.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:39 AM on January 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

Data point: In the mid-70s, I started saying rock instead of rock and roll because it sounded more cool/sophisticated/grown-up to me. I was hanging out with rock musicians who were all older than I was, so I might have picked it up from them.
posted by FencingGal at 10:44 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

Putting the Wikipedia distinction another way: I would only ever say ‘rock and roll’ to refer to a (perhaps slightly) smaller subset, and I would never call e.g. Brittany Spears R&R, while I accept that ‘rock’ is usually construed broadly enough to include her (or Run DMC, etc.)
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:48 AM on January 15, 2018

It may be a regional thing too. British people (and British music journalists) tend to only use the phrase 'rock and roll' in the 1950s sense. But I'm aware of a tendency among Americans to use the term much more broadly.
posted by pipeski at 10:58 AM on January 15, 2018

Agree completely with the Wikipedia distinction. "Rock" was initially short for "Hard Rock" which then led to all these other variants like Soft Rock and Acid Rock and Glam Rock and Prog Rock etc. none of which had much overlap with what we then called 'Oldies' which was the actual Rock&Roll.
posted by Rash at 11:23 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

I definitely make the distinction. From my demographic, 50's-style rockabilly-influenced rock was a step behind the fashion curve and was often viewed as dorky & unfashionable compared to the various kinds of heavier Rock music that came after: A real separate thing. Of course, fashion trends in youth genres are a really big deal when you're right in the thick of things! Take a step or two away and it doesn't seem like as big a deal anymore.

It's a matter of perspective. As for who wins your bet, it depends on what context you decide to frame it in. But I'd agree with the separatist.
posted by ovvl at 11:33 AM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

For casual music fans there is little difference. For those who take their pigeonholes more seriously there is indeed a difference. Most musicians I know do differentiate between the two. Also, pop should never be mistaken for rock/rock n' roll despite whatever genuflections Wenner's little museum makes in that direction. It's like porn - you know it when you see it.
posted by Ber at 11:44 AM on January 15, 2018 [4 favorites]

I came down here to say that they are interchangeable, but after reading the explanations above I realize that they have distinct meanings for me, too.
posted by AgentRocket at 11:44 AM on January 15, 2018

Rock and Roll is a subset of Rock, which is a supergenre of music encompassing Rock and Roll, Punk, Metal, Prog, and many more subgenres, which each have more subgenres.
posted by SansPoint at 12:13 PM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

I guess I don’t use “Rock & Roll” to refer to a branch in a taxonomy of contemporary music, but I use it to talk about, like, the ancestor to many pop/rock forms, e. g. Sister Rosetta Tharpe stuff. Or Link Wray.

But if someone used it in a contemporary context I’d hear it as a synonym for “Rock.”

When I was doing college radio in the late 90s, we had a category called “Wave” which included rock, pop, and a ton of sub genres like Americana, Post-rock, prog rock, math rock, mumblecore, and all the other -rocks and -cores, some experimental, punk obviously, and...other stuff that wasn’t in the buckets for Metal, Rap/Hip hop, EDM, Experimental, World, Folk maybe, and occasionally something else that was distinguished for a few years before being sucked back into “Wave.” I was the Wave Director and have never figured out the etymology of the term apart from “New Wave, No Wave....fuck it, let’s call it Wave!” Which may or may not have happened. Maybe it was an acronym.

Anyway, Wave = “Rock” per my casual use.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 1:26 PM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

> I definitely make the distinction.

Me too. And "one is just a shorter version of the other" is irrelevant: etymology is not destiny, and plenty of different words have come from the same source.

As for the bet, we can't settle it for you; as you can see, different people use the terms differently. I suggest you buy each other a drink and just listen to some rockin' music.
posted by languagehat at 3:07 PM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: languagehat: Can't, he likes Pink Floyd
posted by Cosine at 3:37 PM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

Oh, that's the sub-genre division right there, The Floyd are Rock, but they're not Rock'n'Roll, no way.
posted by ovvl at 7:20 PM on January 15, 2018 [6 favorites]

I'm 37 years old and I differentiate, definitely. I agree with ovvl, Pink Floyd is definitely a determinator.
posted by Fukiyama at 8:14 PM on January 15, 2018

I think the Boogie shuffle rhythm is a demarcation between styles, Rock'n'Roll often uses it, but later Rock genres don't unless they're feeling nostalgic.
posted by ovvl at 10:06 PM on January 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

Within my circles, Rock 'n' Roll is pretty much as per the Wikipedia definition. For musicians in my circles it is very specific because people in these parts partake in what they call Rock 'n' Roll Dancing. So, if one can Rock 'n' Roll dance to it - which means it must be a shuffle or 12/8 time - it is Rock 'n' Roll; otherwise, it is not.

My definition of Rock is also pretty much as Wikipedia has it too.
posted by mewsic at 4:11 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]

Rock 'n' Roll is shakin'-your-body music, be it jitterbuggin' or headbangin' or boots knockin'. Rock is blowing-your-mind music, be it getting wasted or stroking your chin or shouting down The Man. Most artists in the genre do some of each, most do more of one than the other.

The Monks on Beat-Club is about as perfect a 50/50 split as you can fit into two minues.
posted by bendybendy at 11:26 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]

It was abnormally late in my childhood, but I was utterly mystified when I finally heard Jingle Bell Rock.

I have to say that I follow the bias that "Rock" vs "Rock and Roll" identifies a sort of 60s/70s dividing line.

I will say that I am poisoned for categories, as I was told early on that Led Zeppelin was described by one music reviewer as sounding "like heavy metal falling from the sky", and that coined the name of a genre. Then there was all the Mobius art in Heavy Metal Magazzine. I still have a hard time with people using it only to mean Death Metal or whatever. I was reminded of this when listening to the Snap Judgement episode about the Zim Heavy movement, which was about rebellious musicians inspiring revolution under the oppressive Rhodesian government.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:44 PM on January 17, 2018