Major Relationship Issue- How to Control My Resentment?
May 7, 2016 5:59 AM Subscribe
I'm currently harboring a lot of resentment towards my girlfriend. Her brother is a molester and she's unsure of what to do about it, and she has cancelled our wedding due to being unsure and afraid of losing the rest of her family. I have no idea what to do or where to turn, how can I stop feeling resentful?
Hi all,
Long time lurker first time poster. I've been having some big issues lately with my girlfriend and it's gotten to the point where I literally don't know how to proceed. We're both 28, and have been together for 2 years and 3 months. Our relationship has had its ups and downs but overall I'd describe our relationship as generally happy and I think she would agree. We moved in together on our second year anniversary (3 months ago) and the transition has been pretty smooth for both of us. This problem has shaken the foundation of our relationship and I feel like I've lost a lot of affection and respect for her. I hate feeling this way and any words of advice or a reality check would be greatly appreciated.
First issue: my girlfriend's brother molested their cousin many years ago which she revealed to me about 7 months ago. I was horrified and disgusted, and she begged me not to break up with her. She said she's never been allowed to talk about it because her family just wanted to pretend like nothing happened, so after she told me she had a breakdown and had to seek some counseling. As a survivor of severe sexual abuse from family I know in my heart I cannot have a relationship with someone who has regular contact with a molester. We had many conversations about this and I told her I would support her in whatever she felt she needed to do, but I was honest about how I felt because this is a deal breaker for me. She claimed to have soul searched and agrees that it's not healthy for her to have a relationship with a molester and ended the relationship with him. Their relationship had been strained for years, so it wasn't too traumatic for her, but her entire family was rude to her by asking her things like, what her problem was, why she can't just forgive and forget, etc. She's had a really hard time dealing with her feelings in all of this, and since she forced herself to be in denial because her family told her from a young age to forget about it, I'm trying to be there for her to talk or vent or whatever. There have been a few instances over the last 7 months wherein she's not sure how she feels about her brother and misses the good times they had. It scares me but I always remain neutral and say I'll support her no matter what she decides, but I encourage her to work her feelings out to put this to rest.
Second issue: A few months before moving in together we started talking marriage. We both felt like we were more ready with each passing month and 1 month after moving in together we decided that we were totally ready and set a date for this September. Although rings haven't been purchased yet, we did pay for the photographer and have picked out wedding clothes and been ring shopping several times. A few weeks ago she came to me and said she felt like she wasn't ready to get married after all because she feels like she won't be able to see her family. Her family has told me they will never accept me and don't want me around, but I have never stopped her from seeing them when she wants. I was heart broken, and this is the second time she's told me she's ready for marriage and changed her mind. At least the previous incident didn't include wasted money. The day after she called off the wedding, she revealed that she was no longer sure about her decision to cut out her brother from her life and wanted a relationship with both of us. I said I couldn't accept a molester being in regular contact with my partner and we made plans for her to move out. The next day she came to me crying saying that she just had a meltdown and doesn't want us to breakup and will start counseling this to help her deal with her feelings.
I have no idea what to do with this. My girlfriend knows about the abuse I suffered and is of course always sympathetic, furious with my abuser and I feel showed appropriate emotion when I first told her. While I'm trying to be understanding that it's not easy cutting out a family member, because of what I've been through I am just totally unyielding when it comes to sexual abuse. I'm concerned that thinking about her brother and other family members would cause her to cancel a wedding, and I feel completely unstable in the relationship. We've discussed the issues we've been having numerous times and she feels terrible. How can I get rid of the resentment I have? I'm not sure this relationship can make it.
Hi all,
Long time lurker first time poster. I've been having some big issues lately with my girlfriend and it's gotten to the point where I literally don't know how to proceed. We're both 28, and have been together for 2 years and 3 months. Our relationship has had its ups and downs but overall I'd describe our relationship as generally happy and I think she would agree. We moved in together on our second year anniversary (3 months ago) and the transition has been pretty smooth for both of us. This problem has shaken the foundation of our relationship and I feel like I've lost a lot of affection and respect for her. I hate feeling this way and any words of advice or a reality check would be greatly appreciated.
First issue: my girlfriend's brother molested their cousin many years ago which she revealed to me about 7 months ago. I was horrified and disgusted, and she begged me not to break up with her. She said she's never been allowed to talk about it because her family just wanted to pretend like nothing happened, so after she told me she had a breakdown and had to seek some counseling. As a survivor of severe sexual abuse from family I know in my heart I cannot have a relationship with someone who has regular contact with a molester. We had many conversations about this and I told her I would support her in whatever she felt she needed to do, but I was honest about how I felt because this is a deal breaker for me. She claimed to have soul searched and agrees that it's not healthy for her to have a relationship with a molester and ended the relationship with him. Their relationship had been strained for years, so it wasn't too traumatic for her, but her entire family was rude to her by asking her things like, what her problem was, why she can't just forgive and forget, etc. She's had a really hard time dealing with her feelings in all of this, and since she forced herself to be in denial because her family told her from a young age to forget about it, I'm trying to be there for her to talk or vent or whatever. There have been a few instances over the last 7 months wherein she's not sure how she feels about her brother and misses the good times they had. It scares me but I always remain neutral and say I'll support her no matter what she decides, but I encourage her to work her feelings out to put this to rest.
Second issue: A few months before moving in together we started talking marriage. We both felt like we were more ready with each passing month and 1 month after moving in together we decided that we were totally ready and set a date for this September. Although rings haven't been purchased yet, we did pay for the photographer and have picked out wedding clothes and been ring shopping several times. A few weeks ago she came to me and said she felt like she wasn't ready to get married after all because she feels like she won't be able to see her family. Her family has told me they will never accept me and don't want me around, but I have never stopped her from seeing them when she wants. I was heart broken, and this is the second time she's told me she's ready for marriage and changed her mind. At least the previous incident didn't include wasted money. The day after she called off the wedding, she revealed that she was no longer sure about her decision to cut out her brother from her life and wanted a relationship with both of us. I said I couldn't accept a molester being in regular contact with my partner and we made plans for her to move out. The next day she came to me crying saying that she just had a meltdown and doesn't want us to breakup and will start counseling this to help her deal with her feelings.
I have no idea what to do with this. My girlfriend knows about the abuse I suffered and is of course always sympathetic, furious with my abuser and I feel showed appropriate emotion when I first told her. While I'm trying to be understanding that it's not easy cutting out a family member, because of what I've been through I am just totally unyielding when it comes to sexual abuse. I'm concerned that thinking about her brother and other family members would cause her to cancel a wedding, and I feel completely unstable in the relationship. We've discussed the issues we've been having numerous times and she feels terrible. How can I get rid of the resentment I have? I'm not sure this relationship can make it.
Well, I think your resentment is completely reasonable. It's a lot to ask her to essentially cut off her family who stand behind her brother. It's also a lot to ask of you to essentially join that family when that means joining them in tolerating someone who's committed an intolerable crime with no apparent signs of repentance.
I think the part of you that recognizes that your fiancée is a secondary victim here, is right. Unfortunately that doesn't mean your relationship can survive this because it's a fundamental incompatibility that you have.
Think ahead a few years, imagine when you have children. It seems pretty likely to me that the question will come up of the kid(s) spending time with their uncle. How do you think that's going to go? You clearly can't count on the putative kid(s)' putative mom to be a buffer between them and a known child molester, unless something changes, and right now that change is a long way off, if it ever happens, which I wouldn't count on.
I think that despite everything, you and your fiancée are incompatible. I know you've said you'll support her no matter what she decides, but it turns out you can't stamp out your feelings of resentment in order to feel safe around someone who is dangerous (which has nothing to do with forgiveness, btw, they're just using forgiveness as a weasel word). I mean of course you don't like this and why should you like it? It would be different if the whole family hadn't closed ranks and told everyone to put up and shut up, or if the brother had crawled to China on his hands and knees by way of penance, but neither of those things has happened so the situation is what it is.
Sorry you're facing this choice and it sucks, but in my opinion this is an irreconcilable difference.
posted by tel3path at 6:13 AM on May 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
I think the part of you that recognizes that your fiancée is a secondary victim here, is right. Unfortunately that doesn't mean your relationship can survive this because it's a fundamental incompatibility that you have.
Think ahead a few years, imagine when you have children. It seems pretty likely to me that the question will come up of the kid(s) spending time with their uncle. How do you think that's going to go? You clearly can't count on the putative kid(s)' putative mom to be a buffer between them and a known child molester, unless something changes, and right now that change is a long way off, if it ever happens, which I wouldn't count on.
I think that despite everything, you and your fiancée are incompatible. I know you've said you'll support her no matter what she decides, but it turns out you can't stamp out your feelings of resentment in order to feel safe around someone who is dangerous (which has nothing to do with forgiveness, btw, they're just using forgiveness as a weasel word). I mean of course you don't like this and why should you like it? It would be different if the whole family hadn't closed ranks and told everyone to put up and shut up, or if the brother had crawled to China on his hands and knees by way of penance, but neither of those things has happened so the situation is what it is.
Sorry you're facing this choice and it sucks, but in my opinion this is an irreconcilable difference.
posted by tel3path at 6:13 AM on May 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
If your girlfriend wants to have a relationship with a molester, and you refuse to have contact with a molester, then yes, you are at an impasse. You are absolutely not the first couple to struggle with this. You should probably seek out a relationship therapist because this is very complex and a lot of couples would need help in working through this.
I would be curious however, if you and your girlfriend are planning to have children, how she sees that working out.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would be curious however, if you and your girlfriend are planning to have children, how she sees that working out.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm confused about this part (and other restatements of the same idea):
We had many conversations about this and I told her I would support her in whatever she felt she needed to do, but I was honest about how I felt because this is a deal breaker for me.
It scares me but I always remain neutral and say I'll support her no matter what she decides, but I encourage her to work her feelings out to put this to rest.
What exactly would it look like to support her in her decision to continue to have a minimal relationship with her brother? It's clear you're only actually okay with one outcome, so pretending to be "supportive" here is pretty disingenuous.
This being a dealbreaker for you is one thing, but the way you're going about getting what you want feels manipulative and controlling. You're not even owning up to just demanding she cut contact with her brother, you're framing it all as being in her best interest and you helping her make the "right" decision.
posted by cogitron at 6:26 AM on May 7, 2016 [83 favorites]
We had many conversations about this and I told her I would support her in whatever she felt she needed to do, but I was honest about how I felt because this is a deal breaker for me.
It scares me but I always remain neutral and say I'll support her no matter what she decides, but I encourage her to work her feelings out to put this to rest.
What exactly would it look like to support her in her decision to continue to have a minimal relationship with her brother? It's clear you're only actually okay with one outcome, so pretending to be "supportive" here is pretty disingenuous.
This being a dealbreaker for you is one thing, but the way you're going about getting what you want feels manipulative and controlling. You're not even owning up to just demanding she cut contact with her brother, you're framing it all as being in her best interest and you helping her make the "right" decision.
posted by cogitron at 6:26 AM on May 7, 2016 [83 favorites]
It scares me but I always remain neutral and say I'll support her no matter what she decides, but I encourage her to work her feelings out to put this to rest.
Honestly that seems disingenuous because you don't want her to work out her feelings and see where they lead her, you want her to work out her feelings and come to your predetermined acceptable conclusion.
posted by museum of fire ants at 6:29 AM on May 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
Honestly that seems disingenuous because you don't want her to work out her feelings and see where they lead her, you want her to work out her feelings and come to your predetermined acceptable conclusion.
posted by museum of fire ants at 6:29 AM on May 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
She said she's never been allowed to talk about it because her family just wanted to pretend like nothing happened...
A family that decides, as a group, to look the other way and ignore that they have a predator in their midst is not a safe (or sane) group to become a member of. It may hurt terribly, but there's just no way I would feel comfortable being a member of such a family.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
A family that decides, as a group, to look the other way and ignore that they have a predator in their midst is not a safe (or sane) group to become a member of. It may hurt terribly, but there's just no way I would feel comfortable being a member of such a family.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
You have chosen a noble and thankless path in life.
My personal experience is that something like 75% of people totally agree with your girlfriend and her family. They're wrong, but most people are waaaaay more comfortable in denial.
You know what? This is not your issue to resolve. You already know where you stand. Your poor girlfriend is the one grappling with becoming one of us, or staying one of them. This is not a choice you can make for her.
Very gently, I'm advising you guys to stop living together. This relationship is unequal because your girlfriend doesn't have a mind of her own, and you're right - you can't make her decisions for her. She might need another 10 to 15 years to become her own person. If she makes a stand by marrying you, she'll never be sure. She'll always wonder if maybe her family isn't right that denial is the way forward and if she's missing out by not agreeing to the family dysfunction.
This relationship was over when your girlfriend learned of your sexual abuse experiences and didn't put 2 +2 together on her own. That's a fundamental difference you, personally, can not overcome.
You don't say what the ages of the cousin and brother were at the time of the abuse, if the brother went through counseling, etc.. There's A LOT of detail that we're missing, but in some ways I guess it doesn't matter? Only you know if you are making your situation out to be analogious to her cousin's or not, but in general, if the brother is a predator and the family shields him than this is not anything for you to be enmeshed with.
PS - you come off a little petty about the "money wasted." See if you can let that go. You've lost a couple of hundred bucks. Through no fault of her own, your girlfriend has to grapple with really intense feelings and her sense of "place" in the world. Before she was a part of this family. Now? Even if she goes back on the dysfunctional and denial train, deep down she'll always know they are full of shit.
posted by jbenben at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
My personal experience is that something like 75% of people totally agree with your girlfriend and her family. They're wrong, but most people are waaaaay more comfortable in denial.
You know what? This is not your issue to resolve. You already know where you stand. Your poor girlfriend is the one grappling with becoming one of us, or staying one of them. This is not a choice you can make for her.
Very gently, I'm advising you guys to stop living together. This relationship is unequal because your girlfriend doesn't have a mind of her own, and you're right - you can't make her decisions for her. She might need another 10 to 15 years to become her own person. If she makes a stand by marrying you, she'll never be sure. She'll always wonder if maybe her family isn't right that denial is the way forward and if she's missing out by not agreeing to the family dysfunction.
This relationship was over when your girlfriend learned of your sexual abuse experiences and didn't put 2 +2 together on her own. That's a fundamental difference you, personally, can not overcome.
You don't say what the ages of the cousin and brother were at the time of the abuse, if the brother went through counseling, etc.. There's A LOT of detail that we're missing, but in some ways I guess it doesn't matter? Only you know if you are making your situation out to be analogious to her cousin's or not, but in general, if the brother is a predator and the family shields him than this is not anything for you to be enmeshed with.
PS - you come off a little petty about the "money wasted." See if you can let that go. You've lost a couple of hundred bucks. Through no fault of her own, your girlfriend has to grapple with really intense feelings and her sense of "place" in the world. Before she was a part of this family. Now? Even if she goes back on the dysfunctional and denial train, deep down she'll always know they are full of shit.
posted by jbenben at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
Let the money go. Break up and move on.
You are fundamentally incompatible and it's not going to get better if she wants a relationship with her family, and frankly, she does. She's told you so. You said this was a deal-breaker for you and rightly I think.
You could do couples counseling and it will still come down to this. You want her to pick you, over her family, and she doesn't want to.
So gird your loins, absorb the lost deposits, and move on.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:37 AM on May 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
You are fundamentally incompatible and it's not going to get better if she wants a relationship with her family, and frankly, she does. She's told you so. You said this was a deal-breaker for you and rightly I think.
You could do couples counseling and it will still come down to this. You want her to pick you, over her family, and she doesn't want to.
So gird your loins, absorb the lost deposits, and move on.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:37 AM on May 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Oof. There is a lot here, but you've already answered your own question.
"I feel completely unstable in the relationship."
You need to break up. And because of your past experience, you need to not be acting as a therapist for your girlfriend to unload her very complicated feelings onto.
I'm sure this breakup will be painful but I would encourage you to see that your girlfriend is in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship with her family that will take a lot of work for her to overcome if she ever even can. If you marry into that I predict many hard years ahead.
For the record, you have every right to feel the way you do about this.
posted by Brittanie at 6:55 AM on May 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
"I feel completely unstable in the relationship."
You need to break up. And because of your past experience, you need to not be acting as a therapist for your girlfriend to unload her very complicated feelings onto.
I'm sure this breakup will be painful but I would encourage you to see that your girlfriend is in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship with her family that will take a lot of work for her to overcome if she ever even can. If you marry into that I predict many hard years ahead.
For the record, you have every right to feel the way you do about this.
posted by Brittanie at 6:55 AM on May 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
As a survivor of severe sexual abuse from family I know in my heart I cannot have a relationship with someone who has regular contact with a molester. We had many conversations about this and I told her I would support her in whatever she felt she needed to do
I think the missing part to this set of sentences that many people have picked out of your description is that while you may personally support her, you can't do so from within the relationship. Or you don't feel that you can right now, which is a reasonable thing to feel. However she's also working out a lot of shit as far as dealing with the cognitive dissonance of her family being sort of crappy about all of this and what realtionship she wants to have with your brother. You seem clearer about how you feel here which is good news for you but bad news for the relationship.
Her family has told me they will never accept me and don't want me around
At this point if my partner's family had told them (or me) this, I would be looking towards my partner to make a clear and visible choice. Your partner may not be able to, either at this time, or in general, and I think this means the relationship can't really move forward until she sorts some things out. I am sorry.
posted by jessamyn at 7:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
I think the missing part to this set of sentences that many people have picked out of your description is that while you may personally support her, you can't do so from within the relationship. Or you don't feel that you can right now, which is a reasonable thing to feel. However she's also working out a lot of shit as far as dealing with the cognitive dissonance of her family being sort of crappy about all of this and what realtionship she wants to have with your brother. You seem clearer about how you feel here which is good news for you but bad news for the relationship.
Her family has told me they will never accept me and don't want me around
At this point if my partner's family had told them (or me) this, I would be looking towards my partner to make a clear and visible choice. Your partner may not be able to, either at this time, or in general, and I think this means the relationship can't really move forward until she sorts some things out. I am sorry.
posted by jessamyn at 7:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
One thing: it's in no way a contradiction to say you can't have a molester in your family, OP, and at the same time that you encourage your fiancée to work out her feelings about it.
At least, it's not contradictory if you're enforcing a boundary. Which means that if her feelings work out in favour of her joining her family in supporting her brother, that would mean the end of the relationship for you.
Instead, you're trying to say you've set this boundary and now you have to live with her crossing that boundary, which realistically means you have to break up. Instead, you're asking us how to quash your own feelings and values in order to stay on her side of the boundary, with an unacknowledged subtext that you think you can somehow make her choose you while denying that you're forcing her to choose.
Neither of you are in this situation through any fault of your own, yet you're still both being hurt by it. That's a pretty terrible dilemma to be in and I feel really sorry for you. But the fact is that maintaining your boundaries sometimes means you are the one that sacrifices something dear to you. It has to. You can't insist that it only involves her making the sacrifice, even if you, I and all the rest of us think she should. On the one hand she needs to do it, but on the other hand her family are abusing her by putting this pressure on her over a sin that's not her own.
So it's really awful that you're caught up in this but you have to acknowledge to yourself that setting a boundary means it's on you to enforce that boundary. You've got to take and own what is yours here, otherwise you're just one more person pressuring her while pretending not to pressure her. At least her family are open about pressuring her, you know?
posted by tel3path at 7:18 AM on May 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
At least, it's not contradictory if you're enforcing a boundary. Which means that if her feelings work out in favour of her joining her family in supporting her brother, that would mean the end of the relationship for you.
Instead, you're trying to say you've set this boundary and now you have to live with her crossing that boundary, which realistically means you have to break up. Instead, you're asking us how to quash your own feelings and values in order to stay on her side of the boundary, with an unacknowledged subtext that you think you can somehow make her choose you while denying that you're forcing her to choose.
Neither of you are in this situation through any fault of your own, yet you're still both being hurt by it. That's a pretty terrible dilemma to be in and I feel really sorry for you. But the fact is that maintaining your boundaries sometimes means you are the one that sacrifices something dear to you. It has to. You can't insist that it only involves her making the sacrifice, even if you, I and all the rest of us think she should. On the one hand she needs to do it, but on the other hand her family are abusing her by putting this pressure on her over a sin that's not her own.
So it's really awful that you're caught up in this but you have to acknowledge to yourself that setting a boundary means it's on you to enforce that boundary. You've got to take and own what is yours here, otherwise you're just one more person pressuring her while pretending not to pressure her. At least her family are open about pressuring her, you know?
posted by tel3path at 7:18 AM on May 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm imagining your girlfriend writing an Ask from her perspective, and many of us would find it very disturbing/ controlling that her fiance was demanding that she end contact with a sibling and seriously damage her relationship with the rest of her family. While I understand your perspective of not wanting her to maintain contact, I don't understand your perspective that it is the ONLY acceptable way to handle a situation like this. Not everyone permanently shuns family members who commit crimes, and those who don't aren't automatically wrong.
Would any other option be acceptable to you? What if the family was open about abuse having occurred and the perpetrator was penitent? Thinking through the logic that makes it impossible for you to be with her if she doesn't cut her brother out of her life may be a useful thing for you to work on.
posted by metasarah at 7:22 AM on May 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Would any other option be acceptable to you? What if the family was open about abuse having occurred and the perpetrator was penitent? Thinking through the logic that makes it impossible for you to be with her if she doesn't cut her brother out of her life may be a useful thing for you to work on.
posted by metasarah at 7:22 AM on May 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
I'm imagining your girlfriend writing an Ask from her perspective, and many of us would find it very disturbing/ controlling that her fiance was demanding that she end contact with a sibling and seriously damage her relationship with the rest of her family.
I disagree - this is molestation we're talking about. I think that there would be some people on each side, as is happening here with only the OP's side.
I have never stopped her from seeing them when she wants.
Well, that is just false. You set your boundary: no contact with her brother. No participation in covering up the abuse. FWIW, I think that was a really good boundary to set, but when your boundary is literally that your girlfriend cannot have contact with her brother, you are stopping her from seeing her family when she wants, because if she does your relationship will be over.
Yeah, this relationship can't survive. You told her what you need to feel stable and supported, and she doesn't feel she can do it. It doesn't matter if she doesn't "want to" break up, if she can't abide by your boundary, then you have to break up. I'm sorry.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:29 AM on May 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I disagree - this is molestation we're talking about. I think that there would be some people on each side, as is happening here with only the OP's side.
I have never stopped her from seeing them when she wants.
Well, that is just false. You set your boundary: no contact with her brother. No participation in covering up the abuse. FWIW, I think that was a really good boundary to set, but when your boundary is literally that your girlfriend cannot have contact with her brother, you are stopping her from seeing her family when she wants, because if she does your relationship will be over.
Yeah, this relationship can't survive. You told her what you need to feel stable and supported, and she doesn't feel she can do it. It doesn't matter if she doesn't "want to" break up, if she can't abide by your boundary, then you have to break up. I'm sorry.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:29 AM on May 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think we do need more detail. This brother didn't just become a bad seed in a vacuum. It's very possible (and likely) he's suffered abuse as well. For all we know a bunch of parties here have gone to counseling and are trying to heal. I think it would be cruel for the girlfriend to cut off her brother. People with mental illness don't need to be cut completely from their families because of a thing they've done in the past. The brother needs love and compassion and yeah therapy. We don't know if the brother is unrepairably broken and toxic to the girlfriend. I'd dump you have having this deal breaker because it doesn't show compassion. It's ok to have whatever deal breakers you need to have (and necessary) and it's fine to break up for any reason. Girlfriend may have family issues that are the real deal breaker, but that's also unclear. I think you should do some personal counseling because it doesn't seem you've healed from your past. It seems fair for you to break up because this is really complicated and damaging for both you and your girlfriend. You can both be a part of a new couple that isn't so mutually triggering.
posted by Kalmya at 7:39 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 7:39 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
There is more that I would like to know about the situation, but as presented, I would say that you are going to be hurt no matter what path you take, breakup or stay together. What is it she coiuld do that would make you feel more stable in the relationship? She is being asked to renounce her family and her family has already renounced you. This is going to take years of therapy and/or couples counseling to work out and it may never work out.
If it were me, I would pull the bandaid off now and end it. While you may love each other, you can, at the same time, be fundamentally incompatible. I think you are turning to us for advice and help because you hold the premise that every relationship where two people are in love is worth fighting for.
You are also looking at the cost of breakup being high because of the lost security deposits. That cost, is CHEAP compared to the emotional and financial cost either a bad marriage or a failed marriage will impose down the line. There is a saying in trading, "Your first loss is your best loss". Don't ride a bad position down. Get out when you are not right, don't wait to be proven wrong.
posted by AugustWest at 7:51 AM on May 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
If it were me, I would pull the bandaid off now and end it. While you may love each other, you can, at the same time, be fundamentally incompatible. I think you are turning to us for advice and help because you hold the premise that every relationship where two people are in love is worth fighting for.
You are also looking at the cost of breakup being high because of the lost security deposits. That cost, is CHEAP compared to the emotional and financial cost either a bad marriage or a failed marriage will impose down the line. There is a saying in trading, "Your first loss is your best loss". Don't ride a bad position down. Get out when you are not right, don't wait to be proven wrong.
posted by AugustWest at 7:51 AM on May 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Molesting children isn't only a symptom of mental illness, it's a crime. The OP is not wrong to want to avoid someone who did the same crime to someone else as was done to the OP. The OP is showing self-compassion by setting that limit.
It would be wrong to insist the OP has a moral obligation to retraumatize himself by being in the brother's company. If the brother had moved heaven and earth to demonstrate that he's trustworthy, that would be one thing, but the story the OP told was one of a family conspiracy to cover it up. I am willing to take the OP's story at face value and assume there aren't all kinds of extenuating circumstances he hasn't told us about.
posted by tel3path at 7:53 AM on May 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
It would be wrong to insist the OP has a moral obligation to retraumatize himself by being in the brother's company. If the brother had moved heaven and earth to demonstrate that he's trustworthy, that would be one thing, but the story the OP told was one of a family conspiracy to cover it up. I am willing to take the OP's story at face value and assume there aren't all kinds of extenuating circumstances he hasn't told us about.
posted by tel3path at 7:53 AM on May 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
How does the cousin feel about all of this? Have they forgiven the brother? You say this was many years ago. Were they both minors at the time? Cousins are often relatively close in age, so that makes me think it's possible they were both children or teens when this occurred. That absolutely does not make this not molestation, and does not make it any less horrible, but I think it does complicate the matter vis a vis whether the brother is able to reform, or is an inevitable repeat offender with the intent to harm.
posted by quincunx at 8:05 AM on May 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by quincunx at 8:05 AM on May 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
The best thing that you say about your relationship is this: "Our relationship has had its ups and downs but overall I'd describe our relationship as generally happy and I think she would agree."
If that is really the best thing that you CAN say about your relationship aside from these issues, then you have your answer even apart from these issues: don't get married.
posted by sheldman at 8:07 AM on May 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
If that is really the best thing that you CAN say about your relationship aside from these issues, then you have your answer even apart from these issues: don't get married.
posted by sheldman at 8:07 AM on May 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
You know, OP, you're free to reconsider this and ask yourself whether there's scope for reconciliation here. You're also free to decide that you don't want to spend your married life working out your childhood trauma all over again with another set of relatives.
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
First issue: my girlfriend's brother molested their cousin many years ago which she revealed to me about 7 months ago.
Do you really believe and feel completely confident believing that the sister of a molester was never the direct target of any abuse herself? If she's stated that she wasn't, I wouldn't suggest you should disbelieve her, but a reasonable person certainly might do a trial disclosure at one remove to see how bad her partner's 'horror and disgust' would be.
her family told her from a young age to forget about it
How would she have known about this crime at a young age? I can think of a couple of ways: she was there when it happened; her brother told her (bragged about) what he had done; her cousin told her what he'd done; her parents discussed it in her hearing; her cousin's parents found out and confronted her brother or parents in her presence.
All of these are traumatic events. So, for that matter, is losing your entire family. Losing your entire family because they are terrible people is a great deal worse than losing them because of a misunderstanding because there is no chance of getting them back. It sounds like her family either wouldn't be invited to your wedding or might not show up to it; it is fine and good for you to refuse contact with these awful people but your 'concern' that she would be conflicted about this is concerning. It really sounds like you have little to no sympathy for her trauma (as opposed to her present state of mind) because yours was objectively worse; you can be frustrated with her hesitation and waffling now as long as you bear in mind that having/discovering early that a loved one is an irredeemable criminal is a childhood trauma.
(also where is her cousin in all this family contact discussion?? Has the cousin been cut out of the family, did they forgive the brother (under pressure or not), is the girlfriend close to them or was she ever? This is a huge and significant missing detail that ought to have a lot of bearing on how bad her judgment is.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:20 AM on May 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Do you really believe and feel completely confident believing that the sister of a molester was never the direct target of any abuse herself? If she's stated that she wasn't, I wouldn't suggest you should disbelieve her, but a reasonable person certainly might do a trial disclosure at one remove to see how bad her partner's 'horror and disgust' would be.
her family told her from a young age to forget about it
How would she have known about this crime at a young age? I can think of a couple of ways: she was there when it happened; her brother told her (bragged about) what he had done; her cousin told her what he'd done; her parents discussed it in her hearing; her cousin's parents found out and confronted her brother or parents in her presence.
All of these are traumatic events. So, for that matter, is losing your entire family. Losing your entire family because they are terrible people is a great deal worse than losing them because of a misunderstanding because there is no chance of getting them back. It sounds like her family either wouldn't be invited to your wedding or might not show up to it; it is fine and good for you to refuse contact with these awful people but your 'concern' that she would be conflicted about this is concerning. It really sounds like you have little to no sympathy for her trauma (as opposed to her present state of mind) because yours was objectively worse; you can be frustrated with her hesitation and waffling now as long as you bear in mind that having/discovering early that a loved one is an irredeemable criminal is a childhood trauma.
(also where is her cousin in all this family contact discussion?? Has the cousin been cut out of the family, did they forgive the brother (under pressure or not), is the girlfriend close to them or was she ever? This is a huge and significant missing detail that ought to have a lot of bearing on how bad her judgment is.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:20 AM on May 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
It seems unfair to lay all this on the shoulders of your girlfriend. Why should she be so punished for the sins of her brother? Clearly this issue has weighed on her to an extent that she thought she would be rejected for revealing this big secret and she was right. But you two aren't able to counsel each other here. Call off the wedding. Slow down and get therapy. Each of you individually and then maybe together. The number of people with molesters and predators in their family circles is probably immense. I get that this particular scenario is just too close for you. It seems fundamentally incompatible. You two can go separate ways and move on from this to have a happy life. But I do hope you both are able to process this. Your girlfriend sure won't be revealing this secret in the future. Her family, honestly, though, sounds terrible and for her sake she needs a safe space to de-identify with them. But, don't marry into their crazy.
posted by amanda at 8:23 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by amanda at 8:23 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
It seems unfair to lay all this on the shoulders of your girlfriend. Why should she be so punished for the sins of her brother?
I don't think that's what OP is saying, though. OP is saying it is unhealthy for them, as a sexual abuse survivor, to be around someone who has contact with someone who has engaged in molestation. The girlfriend, in this situation, is the one who is engaging in the objectionable action. And she has the right to do that, whether she's being abused herself and can't control her actions, or that she just doesn't want to lose her family over this issue.
OP, I think you need to get into a healthy relationship, and this doesn't sound like one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think that's what OP is saying, though. OP is saying it is unhealthy for them, as a sexual abuse survivor, to be around someone who has contact with someone who has engaged in molestation. The girlfriend, in this situation, is the one who is engaging in the objectionable action. And she has the right to do that, whether she's being abused herself and can't control her actions, or that she just doesn't want to lose her family over this issue.
OP, I think you need to get into a healthy relationship, and this doesn't sound like one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Some other questions that bear asking as you figure out whether your boundaries can coexist:
What would your girlfriend do she learned that the brother was, as an adult, hanging around kids of the same age as his previous target?
If you two stay together, do you want to have kids together? What's her stance on having the brother spend time around your kids? If she chose to maintain some kind of relationship with him, how would that look with kids in the equation? What happens at the holidays when the whole family gathers?
Would you trust the rest of the family to enforce the same boundaries as you around your kids?
When I was about 12, I travelled alone to visit my mom's sister in a different country. Before I left, my mother emphatically warned me never to be alone with one male relative. He came to visit and my aunt unexpectedly asked him to take me out on a 4-hour driving tour to another city. I didn't want to, but I didn't know how to say no to her, especially in front of him. I had no idea why my mother was so strict about him (still don't know, although now I can guess) and I spent the entire day watchful and terrified of him, cringed against the far side of his big old car- I remember it vividly. Luckily nothing happened, he was actually lovely. But if whatever-it-was was still a problem for him, my mom's sister threw me right under that bus and I was too young to advocate for myself- even though I was a pretty well-spoken and assertive kid by that age. To this day I have never told my mom, because I know she'd blow her stack. When adults have different ideas of what's safe, kids basically end up getting stuck doing whatever the loudest adult thinks is right. Something to consider.
Many people who molest kids were also molested themselves; could there be any other people in the family who molested the brother (and hence more incentive for the family to conceal these activities)?
Finally, sorry to ask, but is it possible brother molested your girlfriend too, and she can't bring herself tell you yet because it's too deep for her, or maybe because she fears it may be too triggering for you (which would NOT be your fault at all)? Maybe telling you about the cousin was her sort of working her way up to it. I ask because the level of her meltdowns after she told you seems kind of elevated for something that didn't involve her directly.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:27 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
What would your girlfriend do she learned that the brother was, as an adult, hanging around kids of the same age as his previous target?
If you two stay together, do you want to have kids together? What's her stance on having the brother spend time around your kids? If she chose to maintain some kind of relationship with him, how would that look with kids in the equation? What happens at the holidays when the whole family gathers?
Would you trust the rest of the family to enforce the same boundaries as you around your kids?
When I was about 12, I travelled alone to visit my mom's sister in a different country. Before I left, my mother emphatically warned me never to be alone with one male relative. He came to visit and my aunt unexpectedly asked him to take me out on a 4-hour driving tour to another city. I didn't want to, but I didn't know how to say no to her, especially in front of him. I had no idea why my mother was so strict about him (still don't know, although now I can guess) and I spent the entire day watchful and terrified of him, cringed against the far side of his big old car- I remember it vividly. Luckily nothing happened, he was actually lovely. But if whatever-it-was was still a problem for him, my mom's sister threw me right under that bus and I was too young to advocate for myself- even though I was a pretty well-spoken and assertive kid by that age. To this day I have never told my mom, because I know she'd blow her stack. When adults have different ideas of what's safe, kids basically end up getting stuck doing whatever the loudest adult thinks is right. Something to consider.
Many people who molest kids were also molested themselves; could there be any other people in the family who molested the brother (and hence more incentive for the family to conceal these activities)?
Finally, sorry to ask, but is it possible brother molested your girlfriend too, and she can't bring herself tell you yet because it's too deep for her, or maybe because she fears it may be too triggering for you (which would NOT be your fault at all)? Maybe telling you about the cousin was her sort of working her way up to it. I ask because the level of her meltdowns after she told you seems kind of elevated for something that didn't involve her directly.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:27 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Your girlfriend has no obligation to take your principles as her own and reject her family because you say so; and you most certainly have no obligation to expose yourself (or, God forbid, your future children) to a molester in the family. Just break up. Counseling will lead you to the same conclusion. There's no happy ending here. "Best case" for you is she does agree to cut off her family, and she'll hate you forever for that.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:42 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:42 AM on May 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Your girlfriend is a survivor too. Whether or not the abuse was done to her directly, the disease in inside her. That her brother was so hurt as to cause such pain is proof enough. As a survivor she needs a tremendous amount of compassion, love, and no pressure at all. The same things you need. She needs a lot of time and space and she needs her internal process on this to be respected. As a survivor you may have needs for safe family relationships that are in conflict with her process or her situation. That's your right, and it may mean you are just not compatible right now or maybe ever.
What troubles me here is how her relationship with her family has become about you. I think this is out of bounds. You don't have the right to dictate terms on who she has a relationship with; you only have the right to dictate who you have a relationship with. If you are going to make it as a couple the two of you need to have each other's backs; as the member of a diseased system she is more at risk from them her family than you are, she faces more pressure than you do, and she has probably been hurt by them way more than you ever will. You're asking her to protect you from her family. That places her in harm's way, in between opposing forces, being crushed. As a partner, the way I see it, it should be the opposite; you should be the one to help protect her.
Your hardline stance, though understandable (and I say this as a survivor myself), puts her in an impossible situation. And it makes the viability of the relationship and the wedding all about her and whether she has bent to your conditions or not. It has been set up so that you may have a future if "she" can deal with "her feelings". From where I sit, your position is incompatible with marriage and your plans crumbling is a consequence of this. Until you can say I have your back no matter what, you're saying I don't have your back, and you're effectively saying I am not available to be your partner.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:45 AM on May 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
What troubles me here is how her relationship with her family has become about you. I think this is out of bounds. You don't have the right to dictate terms on who she has a relationship with; you only have the right to dictate who you have a relationship with. If you are going to make it as a couple the two of you need to have each other's backs; as the member of a diseased system she is more at risk from them her family than you are, she faces more pressure than you do, and she has probably been hurt by them way more than you ever will. You're asking her to protect you from her family. That places her in harm's way, in between opposing forces, being crushed. As a partner, the way I see it, it should be the opposite; you should be the one to help protect her.
Your hardline stance, though understandable (and I say this as a survivor myself), puts her in an impossible situation. And it makes the viability of the relationship and the wedding all about her and whether she has bent to your conditions or not. It has been set up so that you may have a future if "she" can deal with "her feelings". From where I sit, your position is incompatible with marriage and your plans crumbling is a consequence of this. Until you can say I have your back no matter what, you're saying I don't have your back, and you're effectively saying I am not available to be your partner.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:45 AM on May 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
You kinda skipped over the "her family won't accept me and doesn't want me around" part, which seems like a whole other issue going on.
posted by rhizome at 9:04 AM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:04 AM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
There is so so much to unpack here.
But first, you need to recognize that family dynamics are long and powerful, rife with history and emotions. She admitted she needs counseling and is willing to get it. That means there is hope.
My life story time: My wife and I are both sexual abuse survivors. I cut off my father from my family. There is an uncle in hers who is a molester and the family dynamics are just unhealthy. She avoids him like the plauge, but there are some family events where he is present. It took years for her to make it clear to get family she would attend but ignore him and he should ignore her. The emotional value of a family, even a dysfunctional one is hard to explain. As someone who was isolated in my abuse and possible family supports the values of that family wasn't immediately clear to me. But now, almost 6 years into our marriage it wad right for her and we do get some support from the family.
Also, who attends weddings is a huge issue. I think women tend to have a little more to unpack sdue to societal expectations. There was anxiety for me up until the day I got married that my father would show. He didn't show up and the wedding was great, but it is a serious concern.
You can stay or you can go, that's your decision. But there are powerful feelings at play and trauma reactions that are going to take time to resolve. If you stay or go I suggest therapy of your own, because you probobly do need to explore your motivations.
Take gentle care of you. There may be some useful information or there for secondary survivors because it is a different role than exploring your own abuse.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
But first, you need to recognize that family dynamics are long and powerful, rife with history and emotions. She admitted she needs counseling and is willing to get it. That means there is hope.
My life story time: My wife and I are both sexual abuse survivors. I cut off my father from my family. There is an uncle in hers who is a molester and the family dynamics are just unhealthy. She avoids him like the plauge, but there are some family events where he is present. It took years for her to make it clear to get family she would attend but ignore him and he should ignore her. The emotional value of a family, even a dysfunctional one is hard to explain. As someone who was isolated in my abuse and possible family supports the values of that family wasn't immediately clear to me. But now, almost 6 years into our marriage it wad right for her and we do get some support from the family.
Also, who attends weddings is a huge issue. I think women tend to have a little more to unpack sdue to societal expectations. There was anxiety for me up until the day I got married that my father would show. He didn't show up and the wedding was great, but it is a serious concern.
You can stay or you can go, that's your decision. But there are powerful feelings at play and trauma reactions that are going to take time to resolve. If you stay or go I suggest therapy of your own, because you probobly do need to explore your motivations.
Take gentle care of you. There may be some useful information or there for secondary survivors because it is a different role than exploring your own abuse.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am surprised to hear so many people say the OP's request seems reasonable. To me, the reasonable boundary is to say "I will never have contact with a molester and I need you to support me in this." The girlfriend would then have the responsibility to ensure that her brother never entered their home, was not present at the wedding, etc. - but would be free to negotiate her relationship with her brother on her own terms. Maybe she would eventually decide, on her own, to cut him off, but she would be doing so out of her own free will, not because of a demand enforced by her partner.
"I will never have contact with anyone who has contact with a molester," in contrast, seems overly controlling and unhealthy to me. What are you hoping to accomplish by this rule?
Is it that you want what's best for your girlfriend? That's admirable, but as with so many difficult situations, forcing her into doing what's best for her is ultimately less supportive than allowing her to work through her feelings on her own.
Is it a desire to 'punish' the abuser by depriving him of a relationship with his sister? I can understand that impulse, but that is simply not your decision to make, and your girlfriend cannot be a tool for your desire to harm this person, no matter how deserving of punishment he might be.
Is it a choice made out of fear - i.e., an irrational worry that somehow, just by the transitive property, he will come into your life and cause you harm? Again, I sympathize, but this seems like a feeling that would be best addresed through therapy, rather than by an attempt to control the uncontrollable. People like this live in the world, and other people love them. It is a hard thing to come to terms with, but coming to terms with it is all you can do.
In the end, maybe this relationship simply won't work - you are dealing with some very difficult and complex issues - but I hope you will look into your heart and think about what you need, because I think there are other, better ways to heal.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 9:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
"I will never have contact with anyone who has contact with a molester," in contrast, seems overly controlling and unhealthy to me. What are you hoping to accomplish by this rule?
Is it that you want what's best for your girlfriend? That's admirable, but as with so many difficult situations, forcing her into doing what's best for her is ultimately less supportive than allowing her to work through her feelings on her own.
Is it a desire to 'punish' the abuser by depriving him of a relationship with his sister? I can understand that impulse, but that is simply not your decision to make, and your girlfriend cannot be a tool for your desire to harm this person, no matter how deserving of punishment he might be.
Is it a choice made out of fear - i.e., an irrational worry that somehow, just by the transitive property, he will come into your life and cause you harm? Again, I sympathize, but this seems like a feeling that would be best addresed through therapy, rather than by an attempt to control the uncontrollable. People like this live in the world, and other people love them. It is a hard thing to come to terms with, but coming to terms with it is all you can do.
In the end, maybe this relationship simply won't work - you are dealing with some very difficult and complex issues - but I hope you will look into your heart and think about what you need, because I think there are other, better ways to heal.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 9:16 AM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
I think you need to admit you have taken a hardline stance--which is an understandable one and is certainly your right--and given your girlfriend a choice (me or your family) most people would find incredibly difficult. This happened 7 months ago. Can you reasonably expect someone to forsake her family in that short a time? Or ever? That is your call, but you do have to actually make the call--not make the call, take it back, then resent her.
If you are not willing to reconsider your stance, this is straightforward: she has run afoul of your stance thus it is on you to break up with her if this is your deal breaker. You don't get to keep her around and resent her. That's not how deal breakers work.
posted by kapers at 9:30 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you are not willing to reconsider your stance, this is straightforward: she has run afoul of your stance thus it is on you to break up with her if this is your deal breaker. You don't get to keep her around and resent her. That's not how deal breakers work.
posted by kapers at 9:30 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Your girlfriend isn't making making healthy choices for herself or her relationship with you. That's a clear choice and certainly a signal that it's time for y'all to end it. I'm sorry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:33 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:33 AM on May 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm speaking from some personal experience here - none with child abusers, but I've been in a lengthy relationship with a girl with an abusive, horrible family that was very good at covering up their bad behavior. Don't want to get into specifics all over the Internet.
I can tell you a couple things: the first is simply that you are right to want that family gone. You shouldn't be in touch with them. If they are around, your boundaries will be crossed. You will be pressured to make nice. Your hypothetical future children would be put in rooms with child molesters, and nobody would listen to your objections. If they're around, your life will be as unpleasant as you're picturing, and if you fight about it everyone will close ranks against you. They already don't like you.
Once you're together for the long haul, there's no compartmentalizing these relationships in a satisfactory way.
Unfortunately, you can't control who your girlfriend has contact with. You can't put that kind of a condition on a relationship, nor can you force her to your point of view. She's the one who gets to decide who she talks to and why and when. Pushing her about it is wrong and can only serve to hurt her further. For most people - even though I am emphatically *not* one of them - the familial bond is sacred, and valued over pretty much everything else. In any even, whatever decisions she makes about that have to be her own.
Just break stuff off. Be kind. Be gentle. Write off the money, don't make a fuss. She's probably going to have to deal with this crap for the rest of her natural life, while you get to walk away. Use this moment to offer kindness to someone who probably doesn't see a lot of it. But you really should go before this is also *your* problem forever and ever.
Whether you take that advice or not, good luck to you both. I'm sorry both of you are stuck with this.
posted by mordax at 9:35 AM on May 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
I can tell you a couple things: the first is simply that you are right to want that family gone. You shouldn't be in touch with them. If they are around, your boundaries will be crossed. You will be pressured to make nice. Your hypothetical future children would be put in rooms with child molesters, and nobody would listen to your objections. If they're around, your life will be as unpleasant as you're picturing, and if you fight about it everyone will close ranks against you. They already don't like you.
Once you're together for the long haul, there's no compartmentalizing these relationships in a satisfactory way.
Unfortunately, you can't control who your girlfriend has contact with. You can't put that kind of a condition on a relationship, nor can you force her to your point of view. She's the one who gets to decide who she talks to and why and when. Pushing her about it is wrong and can only serve to hurt her further. For most people - even though I am emphatically *not* one of them - the familial bond is sacred, and valued over pretty much everything else. In any even, whatever decisions she makes about that have to be her own.
Just break stuff off. Be kind. Be gentle. Write off the money, don't make a fuss. She's probably going to have to deal with this crap for the rest of her natural life, while you get to walk away. Use this moment to offer kindness to someone who probably doesn't see a lot of it. But you really should go before this is also *your* problem forever and ever.
Whether you take that advice or not, good luck to you both. I'm sorry both of you are stuck with this.
posted by mordax at 9:35 AM on May 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
Seriously, what happens if y'all decide to have kids? What happens if y'all are babysitting a friend's kid?
There is a known abuser in her family and she wants to sweep it under a rug, along with the rest of her family. Completely unacceptable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:36 AM on May 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
There is a known abuser in her family and she wants to sweep it under a rug, along with the rest of her family. Completely unacceptable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:36 AM on May 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
As a survivor of severe sexual abuse from family I know in my heart I cannot have a relationship with someone who has regular contact with a molester.
This is your answer.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on May 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
This is your answer.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on May 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Sometimes the relationship itself is perfectly fine, but the problem is external. The circumstances here are such that she has to choose either her whole family or you, and you have to choose between her + her family, or none at all. And it appears any option to be together means someone will be left seriously unhappy and resentful of the other person.
Neither one of you is to blame here. Some people can walk away from their families, or accept being exposed to people they despise. Others can't, and that's just part of who they are, there's no changing that. A marriage counsellor won't be able to help you find a mutually satisfactory compromise here, if you've already talked about it at length. They can't fix everything.
There appears to be no compromise where you're both reasonably happy, therefore it's a no-win, don't-get-married situation. I'm very sorry.
posted by lizbunny at 10:06 AM on May 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Neither one of you is to blame here. Some people can walk away from their families, or accept being exposed to people they despise. Others can't, and that's just part of who they are, there's no changing that. A marriage counsellor won't be able to help you find a mutually satisfactory compromise here, if you've already talked about it at length. They can't fix everything.
There appears to be no compromise where you're both reasonably happy, therefore it's a no-win, don't-get-married situation. I'm very sorry.
posted by lizbunny at 10:06 AM on May 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is a known abuser in her family and she wants to sweep it under a rug
Actually according to the OP, her family wanted to sweep it under a rug, and she had a breakdown because she couldn't stand that.
Completely unacceptable.
Unacceptable - but it might be understandable. At least, understandable that she isn't ready to cut off her whole family. Nor would I agree that she's morally obligated to do so, since there is a lot of territory in between "enabling my abusive brother FTW!" and "you are all dead to me" that she has every right to explore, even though the rest of us might think she's walking into the valley of death. Not to mention that she's not an abuser herself, but a secondary victim and maybe more. We may not like her reaction but she's got a right to it. She's under no obligation to be a Perfect Victim, it's her life and she's the one trying to survive it.
I can't favourite mordax's comment enough:
that you are right to want that family gone. You shouldn't be in touch with them. If they are around, your boundaries will be crossed. You will be pressured to make nice. Your hypothetical future children would be put in rooms with child molesters, and nobody would listen to your objections. If they're around, your life will be as unpleasant as you're picturing, and if you fight about it everyone will close ranks against you. They already don't like you.
To me, this is why the OP's objections are so understandable. This is not what might happen, it's what will happen, and it's not priggish to say an emphatic NO to living his life like that. I'm also in agreement with pseudostrabismus who is very clear about how this will turn out for any future children.
Also, this:
You can't put that kind of a condition on a relationship, nor can you force her to your point of view. She's the one who gets to decide who she talks to and why and when. Pushing her about it is wrong and can only serve to hurt her further. For most people - even though I am emphatically *not* one of them - the familial bond is sacred, and valued over pretty much everything else. In any even, whatever decisions she makes about that have to be her own.
Her family have already made her choose between the OP and themselves. If the OP is making her choose between himself and them, it's one thing if it's a boundary he enforces for himself and another if he's just pressuring her from the other side. For people to escape abuse they have to know that they're not running directly into more of the same in the outside world, which is why it's so destructive to be accusing or judgemental of people who are undecided about leaving.
posted by tel3path at 10:11 AM on May 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Actually according to the OP, her family wanted to sweep it under a rug, and she had a breakdown because she couldn't stand that.
Completely unacceptable.
Unacceptable - but it might be understandable. At least, understandable that she isn't ready to cut off her whole family. Nor would I agree that she's morally obligated to do so, since there is a lot of territory in between "enabling my abusive brother FTW!" and "you are all dead to me" that she has every right to explore, even though the rest of us might think she's walking into the valley of death. Not to mention that she's not an abuser herself, but a secondary victim and maybe more. We may not like her reaction but she's got a right to it. She's under no obligation to be a Perfect Victim, it's her life and she's the one trying to survive it.
I can't favourite mordax's comment enough:
that you are right to want that family gone. You shouldn't be in touch with them. If they are around, your boundaries will be crossed. You will be pressured to make nice. Your hypothetical future children would be put in rooms with child molesters, and nobody would listen to your objections. If they're around, your life will be as unpleasant as you're picturing, and if you fight about it everyone will close ranks against you. They already don't like you.
To me, this is why the OP's objections are so understandable. This is not what might happen, it's what will happen, and it's not priggish to say an emphatic NO to living his life like that. I'm also in agreement with pseudostrabismus who is very clear about how this will turn out for any future children.
Also, this:
You can't put that kind of a condition on a relationship, nor can you force her to your point of view. She's the one who gets to decide who she talks to and why and when. Pushing her about it is wrong and can only serve to hurt her further. For most people - even though I am emphatically *not* one of them - the familial bond is sacred, and valued over pretty much everything else. In any even, whatever decisions she makes about that have to be her own.
Her family have already made her choose between the OP and themselves. If the OP is making her choose between himself and them, it's one thing if it's a boundary he enforces for himself and another if he's just pressuring her from the other side. For people to escape abuse they have to know that they're not running directly into more of the same in the outside world, which is why it's so destructive to be accusing or judgemental of people who are undecided about leaving.
posted by tel3path at 10:11 AM on May 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I agree that with the poster above that it's controlling and over the line to demand that your girlfriend have no contact with her brother at all. It would be reasonable for you to refuse to have any contact with him or to allow him in your shared home, but you can't dictate that your girlfriend cannot have an independent relationship with him. That said, while this is doable, once you have kids things will get a lot messier. You'll demand that the kids have nothing to do with their uncle, while your girlfriend will want to take the kids to family events at which this brother will be present, her family will be pressuring her let them have a relationship with their uncle, and the poor kids will be caught in the middle of all of it.
So I would say that unless you can live with your girlfriend having a relationship with your brother and you don't have any desire to have children, or unless she's willing to not have much contact with her family, this relationship is untenable. Which is awful, and I feel for you both, but especially for your girlfriend. You can walk away, but she has been inescapably saddled with this mess through no fault of her own. Please be kind to her, encourage her to get counselling, and tell her you understand it's not her fault.
posted by orange swan at 10:19 AM on May 7, 2016
So I would say that unless you can live with your girlfriend having a relationship with your brother and you don't have any desire to have children, or unless she's willing to not have much contact with her family, this relationship is untenable. Which is awful, and I feel for you both, but especially for your girlfriend. You can walk away, but she has been inescapably saddled with this mess through no fault of her own. Please be kind to her, encourage her to get counselling, and tell her you understand it's not her fault.
posted by orange swan at 10:19 AM on May 7, 2016
I strongly, strongly disagree that it's controlling to ask that your girlfriend/fiancee not spend time with someone who sexually abused/abuses young people in their family.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
As to what will happen in the future, you really can't predict that. There are many perpatrators in the world, and you both have the advantage of knowing he is one. So there are steps to keep children safe without banishing the whole family. Though it will cause tons of anxiety and limit options.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:25 AM on May 7, 2016
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:25 AM on May 7, 2016
I have to admit, I have empathy for your girlfriend here. It sounds like she has had prior experience where the mere breaking of this news to someone has ended relationships for her---even though it was her brother and not her that did something wrong. I think that is a hugely unfair thing (and in fact this is one of my own relationship triggers---I have some difficult people in my family and am very sensitive to being blamed for stuff I didn't do),
That said, I empathize with your position too. But I do agree with others who said you need to own your position here a little more. If this is your hill to die on, so be it and that is your right to say so and behave accordingly. But then don't put the guilt on her that the end of the relationship is going to be her fault for not bending to your will on this. There are options for boundary-setting here which don't involve her forsaking her entire family. For example, it would be fair to say that you never have to attend events if brother is there. It would be fair to say that you will never have brother at your house. It would even be fair to say that brother will not be permitted around your children. But for reasons which are about you and not her, those compromises are not valid. And that is fair and fine to say that to her. But those reasons are about you and not about her and I don't think it's fair to blame her for them.
posted by JoannaC at 10:54 AM on May 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
That said, I empathize with your position too. But I do agree with others who said you need to own your position here a little more. If this is your hill to die on, so be it and that is your right to say so and behave accordingly. But then don't put the guilt on her that the end of the relationship is going to be her fault for not bending to your will on this. There are options for boundary-setting here which don't involve her forsaking her entire family. For example, it would be fair to say that you never have to attend events if brother is there. It would be fair to say that you will never have brother at your house. It would even be fair to say that brother will not be permitted around your children. But for reasons which are about you and not her, those compromises are not valid. And that is fair and fine to say that to her. But those reasons are about you and not about her and I don't think it's fair to blame her for them.
posted by JoannaC at 10:54 AM on May 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
My ex-husband's grandfather molested him, his sister, and several of his cousins. These are the children that we know of. His family allowed it to go on in their own homes and when it was revealed to them, many years later, they pushed it aside and continued to speak of him as if he were a god to them.
This has affected my children. Because the family doesn't see a child molester as a monster, they are not as careful with my children as I am. They leave them unattended when strangers are near by. They put my young son to bed in the same bed as an unrelated, adult man. There is no respect for personal space or privacy. I've had to ask my ex-father in law to not take pictures while I was changing a diaper. It's a creepy, twisted, tight-knit group of people who believe that they are always right. Denial had drawn them together in a very dangerous and toxic way. My children come home from visits shaken up. I'm a nervous wreck when they see this horrible people. Thankfully, it is not often.
Your post reminded me of all of this. I don't know if all families of monsters have the same toxic dynamic. If I had known before I was married that they had harbored and continued to harbor a monster, I never would have married into that mess.
posted by myselfasme at 11:59 AM on May 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
This has affected my children. Because the family doesn't see a child molester as a monster, they are not as careful with my children as I am. They leave them unattended when strangers are near by. They put my young son to bed in the same bed as an unrelated, adult man. There is no respect for personal space or privacy. I've had to ask my ex-father in law to not take pictures while I was changing a diaper. It's a creepy, twisted, tight-knit group of people who believe that they are always right. Denial had drawn them together in a very dangerous and toxic way. My children come home from visits shaken up. I'm a nervous wreck when they see this horrible people. Thankfully, it is not often.
Your post reminded me of all of this. I don't know if all families of monsters have the same toxic dynamic. If I had known before I was married that they had harbored and continued to harbor a monster, I never would have married into that mess.
posted by myselfasme at 11:59 AM on May 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
To my mind, the clearest and most compelling fact is that her family refuses to have anything to do with you. When a couple is wed, either legally or de facto, the spouse should become their primary family and the family of origin take a lower status. Your girlfriend isn't ready to commit to you/marry you because her family of origin still comes first for her; they reject you and she accepts that. You two can't have a good marriage under these circumstances.
posted by wryly at 12:38 PM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by wryly at 12:38 PM on May 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Woah, woah, woah. +1 to the "I don't quite get the supposedly controlling nature of this post" bandwagon. Contradictory? Sure. Torn up? Sure. Emotional? Sure. Controlling? Don't get it, and I think it's reading a lot into the text that isn't there. Not great in English class, especially not great in real life when you're dealing with an actual person. I don't think it's kind to assume bad actions and selfish impulses that the OP might have taken, theoretically, perhaps, sort-of, maybe.
The OP reads as a survivor of severe abuse trying to reconcile, necessarily imperfectly, a really shitty situation all around. He set a boundary to protect himself, she tried but can't meet it (which isn't her fault), and now he's left with a lot of confusing feelings and motivations. Maybe at times he feels he could support her however she decides, or he convinces himself of that! Maybe he feels ashamed that he can't just "deal" with the trauma and have more contact with the brother! You have no idea from this post! I have no idea! As far as we know, his actions to date are not "disingenuous," as if there's some pure, unmediated motivation he can grasp within himself.
Feelings are not actions, and I don't think it's great to jump down his throat for having strong emotions; these emotions might guide him toward making a healthy choice for himself regarding this relationship given his past and his needs. I also don't get the "you don't have sympathy for her trauma" claim. This whole question is about him struggling to have sympathy for her trauma and family complexities while trying to keep his own trauma in check! Everything sucks about this situation!
Guys, let's keep it together here. Let's not pit one traumatized person against another.
posted by The Sock Puppet Sentience Movement at 2:16 PM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
The OP reads as a survivor of severe abuse trying to reconcile, necessarily imperfectly, a really shitty situation all around. He set a boundary to protect himself, she tried but can't meet it (which isn't her fault), and now he's left with a lot of confusing feelings and motivations. Maybe at times he feels he could support her however she decides, or he convinces himself of that! Maybe he feels ashamed that he can't just "deal" with the trauma and have more contact with the brother! You have no idea from this post! I have no idea! As far as we know, his actions to date are not "disingenuous," as if there's some pure, unmediated motivation he can grasp within himself.
Feelings are not actions, and I don't think it's great to jump down his throat for having strong emotions; these emotions might guide him toward making a healthy choice for himself regarding this relationship given his past and his needs. I also don't get the "you don't have sympathy for her trauma" claim. This whole question is about him struggling to have sympathy for her trauma and family complexities while trying to keep his own trauma in check! Everything sucks about this situation!
Guys, let's keep it together here. Let's not pit one traumatized person against another.
posted by The Sock Puppet Sentience Movement at 2:16 PM on May 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Hi Firestorm 2018, I would consider therapy for yourself no matter what happens from here. You are doing well with self-compassion, taking the high road on this, and setting your limits.
I do agree with others that it is not controlling to set limits on contact with known child abusers, because it is erroneous to assume child abuse happens only when there is time for grooming. Many compulsive child molesters don't need "time" to groom and warm up the child; I attended a support group where one woman's brother had molested her daughter, and it turned out it had started from the week he had moved in to live with her. People who want to f*ck children are dangerous, point blank. They've spent their time dwelling and planning how to do it like any adult who has spent time dwelling and planning how to date the opposite sex. This is their life mode -- to get their physiological returns from abusing children. That is heavy, heavy sh*t for you to feel you're going to be dealing with alone (in physical/emotional abandonment by your partner, when she sides with her family's point of view over yours).
Think about counseling/therapy so that you've got a place to breathe that isn't your fiance, and ride it out. Let it end (compassionately), if that's all you can do. You know this work is deep, deep stuff. You can decide if it's something you want to wait out while your fiance starts her journey via counseling, or if maybe your relationship was the catalyst she needed to reach beyond her family and get counseling, as well as the experience you needed to know how crucially important it is for you to be with someone who lives having consciously dealt with this sh*t (no hidden surprises or unchecked corners). Kudos to you, btw, for being a man who lives consciously of this sh*t. Maybe one day, when we all aren't so ashamed of ourselves, we can meet as men and women in full acknowledgment of the role this sh*t really does play in our lives, find our matches in each other much more efficiently, and then not waste years of each others' time trying to live as though we were never wounded -- what your fiance might be guilty of in this situation with you. I agree with others who have said there might be deeper stuff going on for your fiance too.
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I do agree with others that it is not controlling to set limits on contact with known child abusers, because it is erroneous to assume child abuse happens only when there is time for grooming. Many compulsive child molesters don't need "time" to groom and warm up the child; I attended a support group where one woman's brother had molested her daughter, and it turned out it had started from the week he had moved in to live with her. People who want to f*ck children are dangerous, point blank. They've spent their time dwelling and planning how to do it like any adult who has spent time dwelling and planning how to date the opposite sex. This is their life mode -- to get their physiological returns from abusing children. That is heavy, heavy sh*t for you to feel you're going to be dealing with alone (in physical/emotional abandonment by your partner, when she sides with her family's point of view over yours).
Think about counseling/therapy so that you've got a place to breathe that isn't your fiance, and ride it out. Let it end (compassionately), if that's all you can do. You know this work is deep, deep stuff. You can decide if it's something you want to wait out while your fiance starts her journey via counseling, or if maybe your relationship was the catalyst she needed to reach beyond her family and get counseling, as well as the experience you needed to know how crucially important it is for you to be with someone who lives having consciously dealt with this sh*t (no hidden surprises or unchecked corners). Kudos to you, btw, for being a man who lives consciously of this sh*t. Maybe one day, when we all aren't so ashamed of ourselves, we can meet as men and women in full acknowledgment of the role this sh*t really does play in our lives, find our matches in each other much more efficiently, and then not waste years of each others' time trying to live as though we were never wounded -- what your fiance might be guilty of in this situation with you. I agree with others who have said there might be deeper stuff going on for your fiance too.
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree that this relationship won't work out, but I'm going to give a slightly different spin.
I think it was really suspicious that your girlfriend "chose" you over her brother, at your insistence. As soon as I read that, I was thinking "yeah, right." Your girlfriend didn't make the choice of her own free will. It wasn't what she thought was best for her. It's what she thought she needed to do to keep you. She chose you over her brother in the moment, but there was plenty to suggest that it wouldn't be permanent. She didn't break contact with her brother because he was a molester and it's unhealthy. She broke contact with him because she's probably codependent and wanted to hook her chariot to the stronger horse. She was obviously conflicted about his actions (she was worried, she told you, she was upset at her family's silence), but she had several years to stand her ground and never did until you insisted on it. It sounds like her family is numerous and tight. You can't win here. Even if you get your girlfriend to disown all of them, you've "won" someone with really weak convictions who doesn't have the strength to stand up for them, and a pretty skewed moral sense.
Would any other option be acceptable to you? What if the family was open about abuse having occurred and the perpetrator was penitent? Thinking through the logic that makes it impossible for you to be with her if she doesn't cut her brother out of her life may be a useful thing for you to work on.
This is a good point, but perhaps a moot one. The family doesn't like you (probably because of your hard line regarding the molester). This means that they are unlikely to admit that something is wrong. IS the brother penitent? What's his relationship with the cousin now? How old were they when it occurred? This matters, and the information wasn't in your question. It could be that the molester was 10 and the cousin was eight, and he hasn't shown any troubling behavior since. The severity of the offense matters, too. Some people use "molest" to include behavior from kids playing doctor all the way up to sodomy. There are distinctions and shades of gray here. It's possible that because of your history of abuse you're taking a harder line than most people would- and that's okay. You don't have to do anything a particular way, but you need to be honest with yourself and your girlfriend. You need to be in a relationship with someone you respect and trust. You need to have a good relationship with your girlfriend's family (if she does). Her family sees YOU as the bad guy, not the molester. He didn't do anything wrong, but YOU'RE tearing their family apart. Your girlfriend subconsciously agrees. She broke your engagement twice to support a molester. She's chosen her family over you, and probably will continue to do so. There's no middle ground.
It's not worth it.
FWIW, I've been in a somewhat similar situation, and I'm really sorry.
posted by serenity_now at 5:53 AM on May 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it was really suspicious that your girlfriend "chose" you over her brother, at your insistence. As soon as I read that, I was thinking "yeah, right." Your girlfriend didn't make the choice of her own free will. It wasn't what she thought was best for her. It's what she thought she needed to do to keep you. She chose you over her brother in the moment, but there was plenty to suggest that it wouldn't be permanent. She didn't break contact with her brother because he was a molester and it's unhealthy. She broke contact with him because she's probably codependent and wanted to hook her chariot to the stronger horse. She was obviously conflicted about his actions (she was worried, she told you, she was upset at her family's silence), but she had several years to stand her ground and never did until you insisted on it. It sounds like her family is numerous and tight. You can't win here. Even if you get your girlfriend to disown all of them, you've "won" someone with really weak convictions who doesn't have the strength to stand up for them, and a pretty skewed moral sense.
Would any other option be acceptable to you? What if the family was open about abuse having occurred and the perpetrator was penitent? Thinking through the logic that makes it impossible for you to be with her if she doesn't cut her brother out of her life may be a useful thing for you to work on.
This is a good point, but perhaps a moot one. The family doesn't like you (probably because of your hard line regarding the molester). This means that they are unlikely to admit that something is wrong. IS the brother penitent? What's his relationship with the cousin now? How old were they when it occurred? This matters, and the information wasn't in your question. It could be that the molester was 10 and the cousin was eight, and he hasn't shown any troubling behavior since. The severity of the offense matters, too. Some people use "molest" to include behavior from kids playing doctor all the way up to sodomy. There are distinctions and shades of gray here. It's possible that because of your history of abuse you're taking a harder line than most people would- and that's okay. You don't have to do anything a particular way, but you need to be honest with yourself and your girlfriend. You need to be in a relationship with someone you respect and trust. You need to have a good relationship with your girlfriend's family (if she does). Her family sees YOU as the bad guy, not the molester. He didn't do anything wrong, but YOU'RE tearing their family apart. Your girlfriend subconsciously agrees. She broke your engagement twice to support a molester. She's chosen her family over you, and probably will continue to do so. There's no middle ground.
It's not worth it.
FWIW, I've been in a somewhat similar situation, and I'm really sorry.
posted by serenity_now at 5:53 AM on May 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Have you considered couples counseling?
posted by bunderful at 6:12 AM on May 7, 2016 [9 favorites]