How do I get my child to practice her piano without strife?
March 17, 2016 9:59 AM Subscribe
How do I get my five-year-old to put some effort into her piano practicing, stop her whining and help her with her frustration?
My five-year-old is in a year-long piano program (MYC) that's really wonderful. It's a parented, group class. To keep up with the fast pace of the learning and to meet implicit practice requirements, we practice together at least 5 nights a week for anywhere from 10 minutes to half an hour. It all depends on her mood that evening - if she's really tired, whiny, grumpy etc., we keep it short. Half an hour is a long time for a kid her age and I only let it go that long if she's into it.
Lately these practices are getting more and more strained. Up until now I've really enjoyed doing practice with her and she's been cool with it too, but she's a kid who expects everything to be fun and games and now the pieces she has to play are getting significantly harder - alternating between hands, using both hands together, using notes that are harder to recognize, etc. She's begun more and more to dawdle and whine and cry that "I CAN'T DO IT!" and I have to cajole and plead and threaten and I'm just at a loss as to what to do. She CAN do it. She's a quick learner and she only needs to stick with it and try the piece about 3 times in a row and she's usually got the hang of it. No one is expecting perfection from her. I can't tell if she's a perfectionist herself; what I see is that she expects to be able to put a half-hearted attempt into something and have it come out great, which isn't how things work. And when it doesn't work out that way, she gets really frustrated.
This may just be a stage, but I don't really know how to navigate it. Please give me your advice. Here's what I'm doing now: it's a mixed bag. I know it's not ideal. I'm just at a loss.
Happy encouragement: "Beautiful! You did a great job! You kept trying and you got it! I know this seems hard but I'm here to help you. Remember that we have to practice before we get really good at anything."
Being strict and disapproving when dawdling and whining start: "Little kitcat, come back here NOW. We are doing our practice. That's enough! We are going to play this one more time."
Threatening when she's absolutely refusing to cooperate: "Do you want a time-out?"
My five-year-old is in a year-long piano program (MYC) that's really wonderful. It's a parented, group class. To keep up with the fast pace of the learning and to meet implicit practice requirements, we practice together at least 5 nights a week for anywhere from 10 minutes to half an hour. It all depends on her mood that evening - if she's really tired, whiny, grumpy etc., we keep it short. Half an hour is a long time for a kid her age and I only let it go that long if she's into it.
Lately these practices are getting more and more strained. Up until now I've really enjoyed doing practice with her and she's been cool with it too, but she's a kid who expects everything to be fun and games and now the pieces she has to play are getting significantly harder - alternating between hands, using both hands together, using notes that are harder to recognize, etc. She's begun more and more to dawdle and whine and cry that "I CAN'T DO IT!" and I have to cajole and plead and threaten and I'm just at a loss as to what to do. She CAN do it. She's a quick learner and she only needs to stick with it and try the piece about 3 times in a row and she's usually got the hang of it. No one is expecting perfection from her. I can't tell if she's a perfectionist herself; what I see is that she expects to be able to put a half-hearted attempt into something and have it come out great, which isn't how things work. And when it doesn't work out that way, she gets really frustrated.
This may just be a stage, but I don't really know how to navigate it. Please give me your advice. Here's what I'm doing now: it's a mixed bag. I know it's not ideal. I'm just at a loss.
Happy encouragement: "Beautiful! You did a great job! You kept trying and you got it! I know this seems hard but I'm here to help you. Remember that we have to practice before we get really good at anything."
Being strict and disapproving when dawdling and whining start: "Little kitcat, come back here NOW. We are doing our practice. That's enough! We are going to play this one more time."
Threatening when she's absolutely refusing to cooperate: "Do you want a time-out?"
Kids respond really well to incentives, and I know that you see that "learning the piece and doing a good job" is the end result of practicing, but I'm not sure little kitcat is ready to make that kind of logical leap. Could you set up a sticker chart or similar so that there's a reward associated with practicing whether she learns the piece or not?
posted by telegraph at 10:06 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by telegraph at 10:06 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
she's a kid who expects everything to be fun and games
I don't find this unusual among children of age 5.
You say the program is "wonderful," but is that her experience of it as well? Is there pressure to succeed in the program? What happens if she doesn't practice and then isn't advancing? Will she be tossed out of the program? Maybe the realization that she is falling behind can motivate her to practice.
Can you supplement the practice for the program with practicing easy versions of her favorite songs so she starts to associate playing the piano as fun?
posted by archimago at 10:08 AM on March 17, 2016 [21 favorites]
I don't find this unusual among children of age 5.
You say the program is "wonderful," but is that her experience of it as well? Is there pressure to succeed in the program? What happens if she doesn't practice and then isn't advancing? Will she be tossed out of the program? Maybe the realization that she is falling behind can motivate her to practice.
Can you supplement the practice for the program with practicing easy versions of her favorite songs so she starts to associate playing the piano as fun?
posted by archimago at 10:08 AM on March 17, 2016 [21 favorites]
Agreeing with the above, it's not clear why she would want to do it. You said that *you* have enjoyed practicing her, but the only thing you've mentioned that she gets out of it is that if she practices then you temporarily stop cajoling, pleading, threatening, being strict and disapproving. Why is this so important that you're threatening discipline over it?
Does she have some goal (her goal, not yours) that you can mark off progress towards?
posted by jon1270 at 10:17 AM on March 17, 2016 [30 favorites]
Does she have some goal (her goal, not yours) that you can mark off progress towards?
posted by jon1270 at 10:17 AM on March 17, 2016 [30 favorites]
honestly as someone who had years of childhood piano and music lessons... maybe revisit it when she's say, 7-8?
There was so much less general strife with it when i was past time-out age.
I still in retrospect resent certain stuff like this i was made to do at 5-6, but cherish stuff i was made to do later on even if i was grumpy about it at the time. Let 5 year olds be 5 year olds.
posted by emptythought at 10:17 AM on March 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
There was so much less general strife with it when i was past time-out age.
I still in retrospect resent certain stuff like this i was made to do at 5-6, but cherish stuff i was made to do later on even if i was grumpy about it at the time. Let 5 year olds be 5 year olds.
posted by emptythought at 10:17 AM on March 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
She's a quick learner and she only needs to stick with it and try the piece about 3 times in a row and she's usually got the hang of it.
Is it possible that you're telegraphing this expectation somehow? Because piano can have a deceptive learning curve: at the very beginning, it's possible to play decent-sounding simple melodies with almost no training or practice at all. This is super encouraging! and an advantage over some instruments (like reed woodwinds or the violin, where you need to practice quite a bit just to produce a consistent sound). But once you get past Mary Had A Little Lamb and start having to use both hands or play more complex rhythms, it gets a lot harder, and nobody should be expected to play something well after practicing it three times unless they're the reincarnation of Glenn Gould.
I would suggest making sure kiddo is allowed to take things very slowly. Instead of trying to do a whole song at once, just practice a single bar or phrase over and over, starting out at a ridiculously slow tempo (and maybe just with one hand, then the other). She can pretend she's in a slow-motion video! Once it's pretty fluid at that super-slow speed, have her try it at a slightly quicker pace, slowing down again if she's hesitating a lot. Rinse and repeat until she's playing at tempo, then move on to the next phrase.
Don't despair if she doesn't take to it. I disliked my piano lessons (at age 9 or 10) and quit them out of frustration, but I've gotten back into playing in the last year and it's now one of my greatest pleasures. The lessons I took were valuable, especially learning to read music.
posted by theodolite at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
Is it possible that you're telegraphing this expectation somehow? Because piano can have a deceptive learning curve: at the very beginning, it's possible to play decent-sounding simple melodies with almost no training or practice at all. This is super encouraging! and an advantage over some instruments (like reed woodwinds or the violin, where you need to practice quite a bit just to produce a consistent sound). But once you get past Mary Had A Little Lamb and start having to use both hands or play more complex rhythms, it gets a lot harder, and nobody should be expected to play something well after practicing it three times unless they're the reincarnation of Glenn Gould.
I would suggest making sure kiddo is allowed to take things very slowly. Instead of trying to do a whole song at once, just practice a single bar or phrase over and over, starting out at a ridiculously slow tempo (and maybe just with one hand, then the other). She can pretend she's in a slow-motion video! Once it's pretty fluid at that super-slow speed, have her try it at a slightly quicker pace, slowing down again if she's hesitating a lot. Rinse and repeat until she's playing at tempo, then move on to the next phrase.
Don't despair if she doesn't take to it. I disliked my piano lessons (at age 9 or 10) and quit them out of frustration, but I've gotten back into playing in the last year and it's now one of my greatest pleasures. The lessons I took were valuable, especially learning to read music.
posted by theodolite at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
I took five years of piano lessons starting at age seven and never, ever enjoyed it. Practicing was direly boring and I did not really want to learn to play the piano - my parents thought that all nice children learned a musical instrument, will they or never so. As soon as I was allowed to stop, I stopped and have never touched a musical instrument since. I am not good at music, I never was and I never enjoyed it.
I took some other lessons which matched my interests - community ed art lessons - and while sometimes I was grumpy about receiving criticism of my work, I generally went to them with a will and did the work to the best of my ability. I also took swimming lessons for many years; I loathed the actual lessons but loved swimming, so that balanced out. I am still interested in art and I still like to swim, so those things have lasted even though I'm no artist or great swimmer.
Does your daughter actively want to play the piano? Does she fool around on it when she isn't required to play? Does she do anything which indicates an active interest in music? I know that "interest" is a bit of a crap-shoot at age five, but if she doesn't have any autonomous interest in learning, she's probably simply not going to ever find piano practice anything but a chore.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2016 [21 favorites]
I took some other lessons which matched my interests - community ed art lessons - and while sometimes I was grumpy about receiving criticism of my work, I generally went to them with a will and did the work to the best of my ability. I also took swimming lessons for many years; I loathed the actual lessons but loved swimming, so that balanced out. I am still interested in art and I still like to swim, so those things have lasted even though I'm no artist or great swimmer.
Does your daughter actively want to play the piano? Does she fool around on it when she isn't required to play? Does she do anything which indicates an active interest in music? I know that "interest" is a bit of a crap-shoot at age five, but if she doesn't have any autonomous interest in learning, she's probably simply not going to ever find piano practice anything but a chore.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2016 [21 favorites]
My sister and I demanded lessons at that age and practiced voluntarily. Other people have touched on this already, but why are you doing this at such a young age if she has to be threatened to do it? Music is not something that everyone enjoys, and if you make it something she suffers through now, it's less likely that she'll continue to enjoy it as she matures.
posted by Candleman at 10:24 AM on March 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 10:24 AM on March 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
Why are you sitting with her while she practices? Can't she do it by herself?
I suggest taking a step back and leaving her to practice on her own. It's one thing to remind her that it's time for today's practice, it's another to sit with them and goad her through it.
Cajoling, pleading and threatening have no part in a child's musical education. She either wants to play, in which case she will play without pressure from you; or she doesn't want to.
posted by tel3path at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2016
I suggest taking a step back and leaving her to practice on her own. It's one thing to remind her that it's time for today's practice, it's another to sit with them and goad her through it.
Cajoling, pleading and threatening have no part in a child's musical education. She either wants to play, in which case she will play without pressure from you; or she doesn't want to.
posted by tel3path at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2016
If you stop practicing when she whines, that reinforces whining.
Like many adults, I wish my parents had put some effort into getting me to play piano. I'd do a mandatory 10 minutes, then reward practice time over 10 minutes. Star chart with stickers for meeting the requirement, extra stickers for more practice, and small rewards like Lego mini-figs, markers, etc. for every n stickers.
posted by theora55 at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like many adults, I wish my parents had put some effort into getting me to play piano. I'd do a mandatory 10 minutes, then reward practice time over 10 minutes. Star chart with stickers for meeting the requirement, extra stickers for more practice, and small rewards like Lego mini-figs, markers, etc. for every n stickers.
posted by theora55 at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are you doing this for you or for her? 5 is too young for piano. Yes, I know teachers take them that young (I won't), and some even younger (it's not often that people would want me to start their 18-months olds because someone somewhere wrote an article about it!!). There are early music classes (birth to ~6) for this type of thing.
But, again, does SHE want to do it? I had a piano student who did quite well quite quickly, but she hated it, so as soon as it "got real," she stopped practicing. She showed interest in guitar instead, so she started guitar with me. She LOVES it, so she practices all the time, genuinely loves it, and because of this is able to play things after three months that most kids take a few years to do, and her parents have to tell her to stop practicing to do other things (even eat dinner).
posted by TinWhistle at 10:29 AM on March 17, 2016 [26 favorites]
But, again, does SHE want to do it? I had a piano student who did quite well quite quickly, but she hated it, so as soon as it "got real," she stopped practicing. She showed interest in guitar instead, so she started guitar with me. She LOVES it, so she practices all the time, genuinely loves it, and because of this is able to play things after three months that most kids take a few years to do, and her parents have to tell her to stop practicing to do other things (even eat dinner).
posted by TinWhistle at 10:29 AM on March 17, 2016 [26 favorites]
Antoine de Saint-Exupery:
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.posted by achrise at 10:33 AM on March 17, 2016 [48 favorites]
Threatening when she's absolutely refusing to cooperate: "Do you want a time-out?"
Time-outs should be reserved for bad behaviour. Your child is not being bad. What are you going to do next? Take her favourite toy away? Ban her from seeing her friends?
Learning something at that age should be fun. If you keep this up you'll destroy any enthusiasm your child had to learn in the first place.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2016 [47 favorites]
Time-outs should be reserved for bad behaviour. Your child is not being bad. What are you going to do next? Take her favourite toy away? Ban her from seeing her friends?
Learning something at that age should be fun. If you keep this up you'll destroy any enthusiasm your child had to learn in the first place.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2016 [47 favorites]
I don't think keeping with this class is a good idea. She should learn at her own pace and it should be fun for her! If she doesn't want to move on to more complex pieces yet, do not press her. Do not take her to class that she won't like. Pressing this could very likely lead to a hatred of formalized learning and music. She's five. Get her private lessons or try the class again next year. Practice fun!!!!! Things a couple times a week.
posted by Kalmya at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Kalmya at 10:34 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is definitely a fraught issue- I'm sure you'll find plenty of adults here who quit music because of their experiences as a kid. My daughter is six and is currently in guitar classes. She switched from piano in January. My feelings were that as long as she was working on some music, I don't care what it is- at this point she's still learning the basics of reading music, rhythm, etc. so a lot of the skills are generalized. She was more excited to learn a new instrument (and has rock star dreams), so it's re-energized her. Also also, in addition to Twinkle Twinkle and whatever else she is learning for class, my musician husband is teaching her simplified Taylor Swift songs which is obviously a huge draw.
We are also taking a break from "practicing." Instead, when I get home from work, at some point I will ask her to play guitar for me. "Will you entertain me while I cook dinner?" Sort of thing. During this, I will thank her for playing but refrain from commenting or critiquing. She seems to really enjoy doing that and will run through all the songs in her book. I will also video her playing and send it to anyone I think will not go nuts getting ridiculous videos of her playing guitar all the time. She loves loves loves performing and getting nice comments from grandparents and aunts and uncles. She will also make videos of her "teaching" an imaginary audience how to play, in which she often runs through a lot of the techniques she is learning, so I know she is hearing her guitar teacher.
Last, and I'm not sure how this would transfer to piano, she has a very nice 3/4 size classical yamaha guitar but sometimes we let her plug in and wail on my electric. Again, rock star dreams. If you have a key board maybe let her play with the different sound options?
I am really trying to make this a fun experience rather than a chore, because I quit piano in the second grade and am only recently learning to play guitar, whereas my husband has been playing for life and can play multiple instruments and is generally very impressive. I hope that she can have a similar relationship to music.
posted by Missense Mutation at 10:35 AM on March 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
We are also taking a break from "practicing." Instead, when I get home from work, at some point I will ask her to play guitar for me. "Will you entertain me while I cook dinner?" Sort of thing. During this, I will thank her for playing but refrain from commenting or critiquing. She seems to really enjoy doing that and will run through all the songs in her book. I will also video her playing and send it to anyone I think will not go nuts getting ridiculous videos of her playing guitar all the time. She loves loves loves performing and getting nice comments from grandparents and aunts and uncles. She will also make videos of her "teaching" an imaginary audience how to play, in which she often runs through a lot of the techniques she is learning, so I know she is hearing her guitar teacher.
Last, and I'm not sure how this would transfer to piano, she has a very nice 3/4 size classical yamaha guitar but sometimes we let her plug in and wail on my electric. Again, rock star dreams. If you have a key board maybe let her play with the different sound options?
I am really trying to make this a fun experience rather than a chore, because I quit piano in the second grade and am only recently learning to play guitar, whereas my husband has been playing for life and can play multiple instruments and is generally very impressive. I hope that she can have a similar relationship to music.
posted by Missense Mutation at 10:35 AM on March 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Up until now I've really enjoyed doing practice with her
I'm sorry but this i completely immaterial. Whether you enjoy it or not isn't the point.
People play music because they enjoy it - they enjoy hearing and making music. Reading music, while it is a great and useful skill, is pretty secondary to playing. And nobody ever learned to play an instrument while hating the process. She just may not be ready yet, or she just might be someone who is not going to be into music. I'm honestly sorry to say this quite so harshly, but in my opinion, if you want to make her irretrievably dislike the very idea of music lessons in the near future you could continue with your 'being strict and disapproving' and your 'being threatening.'
My opinion: try semi-formal lessons a few years from now. In the meantime encourage group, FUN activities related to musicality. A great deal of the pleasure of music making is in going at it in a group, listening and cooperating, and luckily this is also the scope of most adult music making activity. And, five is still young enough to need to mostly learn through play.
posted by glasseyes at 10:36 AM on March 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry but this i completely immaterial. Whether you enjoy it or not isn't the point.
People play music because they enjoy it - they enjoy hearing and making music. Reading music, while it is a great and useful skill, is pretty secondary to playing. And nobody ever learned to play an instrument while hating the process. She just may not be ready yet, or she just might be someone who is not going to be into music. I'm honestly sorry to say this quite so harshly, but in my opinion, if you want to make her irretrievably dislike the very idea of music lessons in the near future you could continue with your 'being strict and disapproving' and your 'being threatening.'
My opinion: try semi-formal lessons a few years from now. In the meantime encourage group, FUN activities related to musicality. A great deal of the pleasure of music making is in going at it in a group, listening and cooperating, and luckily this is also the scope of most adult music making activity. And, five is still young enough to need to mostly learn through play.
posted by glasseyes at 10:36 AM on March 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
Charts and stickers, with some reward at the end for filling the chart.
My year old son's OT and Speech Therapist routinely get him to sit and focus for longer than 10 minutes (30 to 60 minute sessions) with charts and stickers. I think the Speech Therapist uses stamps on the chart.
It works like a charm. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2016
My year old son's OT and Speech Therapist routinely get him to sit and focus for longer than 10 minutes (30 to 60 minute sessions) with charts and stickers. I think the Speech Therapist uses stamps on the chart.
It works like a charm. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2016
I don't know that you can get her to put effort into it without whining if she doesn't want to do it. I was a super-whiny piano student until I was about 10, when my mother said, "Look, if you hate piano so much, you can stop taking lessons - I don't need to waste time and money on this if you don't like it."
And I realized that I actually enjoyed piano lessons at a deep level. I would be super-lying if I said that from that day on I practiced every day and I never whined about it again, but it was a turning point in my musical (and just overall) life. I was a serious pianist all through high school and although I mostly gave piano up during/after college I'm still a serious musician (although I do much better in group situations where I have others depending on me to learn the music/perform well).
Five is pretty young, and I don't know how good your kiddo is at seeing/understanding natural consequences; but what would happen if you sat down with her and said, "If we don't practice, we can't keep taking piano class - do you want to stop taking piano? I would be sad if we had to stop."
posted by mskyle at 10:41 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I realized that I actually enjoyed piano lessons at a deep level. I would be super-lying if I said that from that day on I practiced every day and I never whined about it again, but it was a turning point in my musical (and just overall) life. I was a serious pianist all through high school and although I mostly gave piano up during/after college I'm still a serious musician (although I do much better in group situations where I have others depending on me to learn the music/perform well).
Five is pretty young, and I don't know how good your kiddo is at seeing/understanding natural consequences; but what would happen if you sat down with her and said, "If we don't practice, we can't keep taking piano class - do you want to stop taking piano? I would be sad if we had to stop."
posted by mskyle at 10:41 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Adding that my son does his OT, Speech, Swim, a bunch of other stuff, and especially one particular hour long Yoga class with me, and he loves them all because they are all structured around play.
Nthing if the structure of the class is not play based this may be the problem.
posted by jbenben at 10:41 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nthing if the structure of the class is not play based this may be the problem.
posted by jbenben at 10:41 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This sounds totally developmentally appropriate for 5, and it sounds like you're putting a lot of emotion into that short piece of the day with either over-enthusiasm or threats, and for a 5 year old it's also normal to find that emotional minefield to be scary and reject it as much as possible.
Okay, so coming from it from an emotional standpoint isn't working. For your family, it sounds like daily music practice is a non-negotiable. Non-negotiables don't get rewarded in our house; they're just part of being in our family. For non-negotiable things in our family, we allow the expression of emotion, sometimes repeating and/or verbalizing the wordless emotion, give the kid a minute to feel that, and then calmly insist it's time to do the thing.
"I don't want to practice, I hate music!"
"I know you feel that way right now. Do you want a hug?"
"NO I CAN'T PLAY ANYTHING"
"I know, we're learning a hard piece of music. I'm looking forward to getting better and better at it until it's easy. It's hard to do things we don't want to do, huh?" *grownup sits at piano and looks expectantly over* "I'm ready when you are."
Sometimes it takes 10 minutes of sitting there with calm expectation while the kid writhes around. At least with my kid, eventually they sit down next to you, and they sit down faster the second time.
The other piece is her expressing the feeling that she can't do it. That's a piece that can be helped along. At 5 they don't have much ability to break a big task into bite sized pieces. She can't play the chord. Okay, what's the first note? The second? What's the bottom hand doing? The top? Can we sing the rhythm?
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:44 AM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Okay, so coming from it from an emotional standpoint isn't working. For your family, it sounds like daily music practice is a non-negotiable. Non-negotiables don't get rewarded in our house; they're just part of being in our family. For non-negotiable things in our family, we allow the expression of emotion, sometimes repeating and/or verbalizing the wordless emotion, give the kid a minute to feel that, and then calmly insist it's time to do the thing.
"I don't want to practice, I hate music!"
"I know you feel that way right now. Do you want a hug?"
"NO I CAN'T PLAY ANYTHING"
"I know, we're learning a hard piece of music. I'm looking forward to getting better and better at it until it's easy. It's hard to do things we don't want to do, huh?" *grownup sits at piano and looks expectantly over* "I'm ready when you are."
Sometimes it takes 10 minutes of sitting there with calm expectation while the kid writhes around. At least with my kid, eventually they sit down next to you, and they sit down faster the second time.
The other piece is her expressing the feeling that she can't do it. That's a piece that can be helped along. At 5 they don't have much ability to break a big task into bite sized pieces. She can't play the chord. Okay, what's the first note? The second? What's the bottom hand doing? The top? Can we sing the rhythm?
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:44 AM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Piano does get progressively more difficult, especially for chubsy little baby fingers. Everyone learns more slowly as time goes on. Can you use a practice to show her the progression of what she's learned so far? Go through it all and talk about how a skill gets built.
This could also be incorporated into each practice, if you're not doing it: play something fun (warm-up), then review the thing from lesson-before-last, then practice slightly new and different thing.
Honestly, if this continues to frustrate her, it's better to slow way the heck down, even if that means you don't keep up with the pre-set program and have to teach her yourself instead of with the class.
posted by zennie at 10:50 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This could also be incorporated into each practice, if you're not doing it: play something fun (warm-up), then review the thing from lesson-before-last, then practice slightly new and different thing.
Honestly, if this continues to frustrate her, it's better to slow way the heck down, even if that means you don't keep up with the pre-set program and have to teach her yourself instead of with the class.
posted by zennie at 10:50 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to circle back on this and say that I was in piano lessons from age 4 and continued music lessons on multiple instruments for the next couple of decades. For as long as I lived in my parents' house, practicing was an emotionally fraught nightmare. I'd cry, scream, whine, and hide under furniture until I got too big for it. I also loved to play music and begged for lessons.
The problem for me was that I was/am a perfectionist and I couldn't bear for my parents to hear me playing imperfectly, and even when I did learn a piece, to hear them say "You learned your piece!" after I practiced made me feel immense shame because it meant they had heard the whole ugly process. It's only now as an adult with my full complement of emotional intelligence that I have any appreciation for this -- as a kid all I knew was that practicing at home was death and the only time I would ever practice voluntarily was when my parents weren't around.
I don't think that being forced to practice cultivated this attitude and I know for sure that being forced to practice did not ruin my love of music. Weird as it may sound, I am grateful that my parents let me continue taking music lessons even though I was a bratty little monster about practicing. Don't just assume that the kinder gentler way to parent right now is to take the lessons away.
posted by telegraph at 10:52 AM on March 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
The problem for me was that I was/am a perfectionist and I couldn't bear for my parents to hear me playing imperfectly, and even when I did learn a piece, to hear them say "You learned your piece!" after I practiced made me feel immense shame because it meant they had heard the whole ugly process. It's only now as an adult with my full complement of emotional intelligence that I have any appreciation for this -- as a kid all I knew was that practicing at home was death and the only time I would ever practice voluntarily was when my parents weren't around.
I don't think that being forced to practice cultivated this attitude and I know for sure that being forced to practice did not ruin my love of music. Weird as it may sound, I am grateful that my parents let me continue taking music lessons even though I was a bratty little monster about practicing. Don't just assume that the kinder gentler way to parent right now is to take the lessons away.
posted by telegraph at 10:52 AM on March 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
If you do want to try to keep music in both your lives but back off from piano for a while, Music Together classes go up to 7 year old, and focus on parents and children enjoying playing together. It's rhythm based, so there's not the big pressure to practice and learn to read music.
posted by Candleman at 10:58 AM on March 17, 2016
posted by Candleman at 10:58 AM on March 17, 2016
I started learning piano at age 6 and I absolutely hated it. I was not a natural and I had never wanted to do it. The fact that I wasn't naturally good at it made me associate it with failure. My mom made me take classes until I was 17 and I became decent at playing but practicing only became more torturous, the older I grew--and a large part of the reason was that I was threatened and forced into doing it, despite having no natural talent or desire or interest. Even now, I have some very unpleasant emotional associations with piano music. Why don't you let her choose a class she wants to do? Or wait until she's old enough to know what she's interested in?
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:08 AM on March 17, 2016
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:08 AM on March 17, 2016
My parents did bribery one summer, for me and my brother, when I was around 9 or so. I needed to practice my piano; he needed to practice clarinet and stuff for his bar mitzvah. We got ice cream at the end of the week, and a trip to Hershey park at the end of the summer.
It worked, in that I practiced that summer. But I never really got into the piano, or practicing piano, even though piano lessons were something that I had asked for starting in second grade, and I loved music.
Fast forward to 8th grade or so, where, for some reason, I started actually practicing the French horn (which I had picked up in school in 5th grade). I had quit piano by this point. I discovered that practicing worked, and would practice, on my own, for between a half hour and and hour most days, all through the rest of middle and high school and the beginning of college.
The two things that would keep me from practicing? Either (1) my mother telling me to, or as telegraph described, (2) my mother commenting on how I had improved after a session. Because the horn was my thing, that I wanted to do on my own.
So, yeah. Bribery might work temporarily, and it may even stick, depending on the child, but for me, it was getting there on my own that made it work.
posted by damayanti at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It worked, in that I practiced that summer. But I never really got into the piano, or practicing piano, even though piano lessons were something that I had asked for starting in second grade, and I loved music.
Fast forward to 8th grade or so, where, for some reason, I started actually practicing the French horn (which I had picked up in school in 5th grade). I had quit piano by this point. I discovered that practicing worked, and would practice, on my own, for between a half hour and and hour most days, all through the rest of middle and high school and the beginning of college.
The two things that would keep me from practicing? Either (1) my mother telling me to, or as telegraph described, (2) my mother commenting on how I had improved after a session. Because the horn was my thing, that I wanted to do on my own.
So, yeah. Bribery might work temporarily, and it may even stick, depending on the child, but for me, it was getting there on my own that made it work.
posted by damayanti at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Honestly, from what I am seeing on the MYC program's website, it is not at all clear that 5-nights-a-week practice is really an important part of the program - it seems very much centered around the fun (and age-appropriate) group lessons that address much more than just playing ability. The site does say, "Parent participation in the program also allows reinforcement of concepts and skill-building at home. Parents see how the concepts are presented, and learn how to reinforce the ideas at home." And I have some strong doubts that pleading, cajoling, or threatening would be considered "reinforcement" by the teachers.
So the first thing I think you should do is check in with your child's teacher about what you should be doing at home to reinforce concepts and build skill in the context of the MYC program. I suspect there may be more to it than trying to enforce daily piano practice.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:26 AM on March 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
So the first thing I think you should do is check in with your child's teacher about what you should be doing at home to reinforce concepts and build skill in the context of the MYC program. I suspect there may be more to it than trying to enforce daily piano practice.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:26 AM on March 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
Five is pretty young, and I don't know how good your kiddo is at seeing/understanding natural consequences; but what would happen if you sat down with her and said, "If we don't practice, we can't keep taking piano class - do you want to stop taking piano? I would be sad if we had to stop."
Please don't say that you would be sad if you had to stop, or otherwise shame her if she genuinely wants to stop piano. I had five years of that, and I always agreed to continue the lessons because my parents made very clear that only a bad, disobedient child who didn't care about their parents' feelings would be stubborn enough to stop taking piano.
I stress that I was a good, compliant kid with great grades and lots and lots of hobbies/interests; this wasn't something where I would be slumped in front of the TV watching reruns all day if not for piano.
Whatever you do, don't create a virtue narrative around piano. It's important for kids to be able to learn and follow up on stuff, but it doesn't really matter if it's piano that they learn.
posted by Frowner at 11:32 AM on March 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
Please don't say that you would be sad if you had to stop, or otherwise shame her if she genuinely wants to stop piano. I had five years of that, and I always agreed to continue the lessons because my parents made very clear that only a bad, disobedient child who didn't care about their parents' feelings would be stubborn enough to stop taking piano.
I stress that I was a good, compliant kid with great grades and lots and lots of hobbies/interests; this wasn't something where I would be slumped in front of the TV watching reruns all day if not for piano.
Whatever you do, don't create a virtue narrative around piano. It's important for kids to be able to learn and follow up on stuff, but it doesn't really matter if it's piano that they learn.
posted by Frowner at 11:32 AM on March 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
I started piano lessons around age 6 or so. I don't remember actually wanting to play it, but because I had "piano hands", my parents thought that meant I can be a great pianist.
My time practicing piano was mostly my mom coercing me to do so: "if you don't practice, you won't get first place", "you need half an hour more before dinner", etc. It was NEVER about me enjoying the activity, it was about satisfying my parents' pride in their children*.
So you have to think about the piano lessons from your kid's perspective. What's in it for her? What does SHE get out of it? She "expects everything to be fun and games"... of course she does, she's 5 years old! So make it fun and games! You can try rewarding, like others have suggested. If my mom had done this, I would have been more enthusiastic about practicing.
And you have to think of the possibility that maybe piano isn't the right activity for her. My brother started piano at the same age as me, but quit a few years later because he griped enough about it (and he wasn't that great, to be honest, lol).
* I eventually enjoyed piano, like genuinely, AFTER I left for college and could play it whenever and whatever I felt like it (which wasn't often, given how busy I was). No coercion whatsoever. I didn't have to play a Chopin etude if I don't want to, I can play that one pop song over and over again, I can mess up without Dad making fun of me...
posted by curagea at 11:33 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
My time practicing piano was mostly my mom coercing me to do so: "if you don't practice, you won't get first place", "you need half an hour more before dinner", etc. It was NEVER about me enjoying the activity, it was about satisfying my parents' pride in their children*.
So you have to think about the piano lessons from your kid's perspective. What's in it for her? What does SHE get out of it? She "expects everything to be fun and games"... of course she does, she's 5 years old! So make it fun and games! You can try rewarding, like others have suggested. If my mom had done this, I would have been more enthusiastic about practicing.
And you have to think of the possibility that maybe piano isn't the right activity for her. My brother started piano at the same age as me, but quit a few years later because he griped enough about it (and he wasn't that great, to be honest, lol).
* I eventually enjoyed piano, like genuinely, AFTER I left for college and could play it whenever and whatever I felt like it (which wasn't often, given how busy I was). No coercion whatsoever. I didn't have to play a Chopin etude if I don't want to, I can play that one pop song over and over again, I can mess up without Dad making fun of me...
posted by curagea at 11:33 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: We got a Whitman's chocolate sampler and Little Llama gets to pick a piece of candy of her choosing prior to practice because she says it 'helps her think'.
I'm shooting for fifteen minutes, maybe four to five days a week, for practicing. Lessons are thirty minutes at someone's house.
She's seven. She's not in love with it, she just started.
I did move the piano to a nice social part of the house, put her little knick-knacks on it, and picking a piece of candy from a Whitman's sampler is a real kick when you're seven.
I would not have tried this at five. She wouldn't have been ready and she is only just getting used to the idea of 'having' to do things like homework and practicing spelling, so we aim for a little bit of these things at a time so they don't become a huge drag but are more of a part of life you take in stride.
I would do everything possible to avoid piano becoming associated with misery and joylessness, up to and including putting it off for a couple of years. Just have a piano around. Listen to music with fun piano features. Play together. And forget any formalities, just try to build interest and positive associations.
That said, my own little friend isn't getting a choice in this one, at seven. It's just that so far I've managed to obscure that fact and the teacher is fun and so is candy. We'll see how that shakes out a few years from now.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:40 AM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm shooting for fifteen minutes, maybe four to five days a week, for practicing. Lessons are thirty minutes at someone's house.
She's seven. She's not in love with it, she just started.
I did move the piano to a nice social part of the house, put her little knick-knacks on it, and picking a piece of candy from a Whitman's sampler is a real kick when you're seven.
I would not have tried this at five. She wouldn't have been ready and she is only just getting used to the idea of 'having' to do things like homework and practicing spelling, so we aim for a little bit of these things at a time so they don't become a huge drag but are more of a part of life you take in stride.
I would do everything possible to avoid piano becoming associated with misery and joylessness, up to and including putting it off for a couple of years. Just have a piano around. Listen to music with fun piano features. Play together. And forget any formalities, just try to build interest and positive associations.
That said, my own little friend isn't getting a choice in this one, at seven. It's just that so far I've managed to obscure that fact and the teacher is fun and so is candy. We'll see how that shakes out a few years from now.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:40 AM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
What is the desired outcome of her being in this class? Is it for her to get some first-hand experience playing a musical instrument to see if it's something she enjoys, or is the plan for her to go to Julliard in 12 years? Whatever it is, has that expectation been clearly communicated to her?
I think it's good thing for all kids to be exposed to some form of musical learning, and it sounds like she has been enjoying playing at a certain level. That's great! Most of the adults I know who play an instrument do so pretty casually; they have some favorite songs memorized, can maybe strum along at a party if someone gives them the chords... and they're totally content and fulfilled to play at that level. It's OK to enjoy a thing without being an expert at it, even (especially) for kids. I'm not a parent or developmental psychologist, but... jeez, she's only 5! I can think of no better way to ruin a potential lifelong enjoyment of playing music for the fun of it than to insist that she progress along some arbitrary curve under threat of punishment.
posted by usonian at 11:52 AM on March 17, 2016
I think it's good thing for all kids to be exposed to some form of musical learning, and it sounds like she has been enjoying playing at a certain level. That's great! Most of the adults I know who play an instrument do so pretty casually; they have some favorite songs memorized, can maybe strum along at a party if someone gives them the chords... and they're totally content and fulfilled to play at that level. It's OK to enjoy a thing without being an expert at it, even (especially) for kids. I'm not a parent or developmental psychologist, but... jeez, she's only 5! I can think of no better way to ruin a potential lifelong enjoyment of playing music for the fun of it than to insist that she progress along some arbitrary curve under threat of punishment.
posted by usonian at 11:52 AM on March 17, 2016
Best answer: I have to cajole and plead and threaten
No. You really do not. I would start by getting that idea out of your head. This isn't, like, a thing where you have to get her to take bad-tasting medication or she will perish. It's piano lessons, for a five-year-old, run by a program that prioritises getting kids to love music and have fun with it.
If the pushback is because the new stuff is unpleasantly difficult, why not return to the stuff she was enjoying?
It might not make her musically advanced, but it would be so much better at selling her on the idea that learning for the sake of learning is a pleasurable activity that it will leave her more advanced all around.
I homeschool and we are largely "unschoolers" or at least "eclectic unschoolers" and I couldn't be paid to do this. We do have a rule where if you sign up for a course you must finish it, but I don't think I would have been doctrinaire about that for homework at age five. The reward here -- better piano skills -- come at such high risk, that is, reinforcing 'lessons suck' -- that I would not try even the fanciest/gentlest kinds of bribery. It is just not worth it.
Let her steer the ship here. I'd just drop the subject for a bit. I'd bet you'll eventually get a question about piano lessons. Then you can explain that she was complaining about them an awful lot so you figured she didn't want to do it. But, wait, are you wrong about that? Were there parts of it she did enjoy? Could she show you what she does like so you guys can do that together? She may want to return to elementary stuff. She may also surprise you; she may be eager to have a go at the more advanced lessons once the pressure is completely removed.
Figuring out and following her learning style could be a really valuable thing to get out of this. My daughter has always had a thing where she is filled with contempt for things she hasn't quite got the hang of yet. If she's not at least 'pretty good' at it, she just won't. And for her entire life, she has stubbornly resisted going to the next level -- until one random day she feels confident about it, and a switch flips and she's off to the next level as though she was practicing away for ages. I did not chase her wobbly bike up and down the street, ever -- she just asked one day to have the training wheels taken off, and she took off, and that was it. I did not, once I noticed she could read at a higher level, push her to read at a higher level. She just de-cluttered her room of picture books on a random de-cluttering day. If your kid learns like my kid, she will enjoy repeating the easy stuff, and, on some seemingly random occasion, very quickly level up. Or not! But it is far more useful to know her learning style and work with that than it is to 'cajole and plead and threaten.' Leave the schools to try to fit her into a one-size-fits-all model; you have loads of freedom here to indulge her in figuring out how to love learning.
posted by kmennie at 11:56 AM on March 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
No. You really do not. I would start by getting that idea out of your head. This isn't, like, a thing where you have to get her to take bad-tasting medication or she will perish. It's piano lessons, for a five-year-old, run by a program that prioritises getting kids to love music and have fun with it.
If the pushback is because the new stuff is unpleasantly difficult, why not return to the stuff she was enjoying?
It might not make her musically advanced, but it would be so much better at selling her on the idea that learning for the sake of learning is a pleasurable activity that it will leave her more advanced all around.
I homeschool and we are largely "unschoolers" or at least "eclectic unschoolers" and I couldn't be paid to do this. We do have a rule where if you sign up for a course you must finish it, but I don't think I would have been doctrinaire about that for homework at age five. The reward here -- better piano skills -- come at such high risk, that is, reinforcing 'lessons suck' -- that I would not try even the fanciest/gentlest kinds of bribery. It is just not worth it.
Let her steer the ship here. I'd just drop the subject for a bit. I'd bet you'll eventually get a question about piano lessons. Then you can explain that she was complaining about them an awful lot so you figured she didn't want to do it. But, wait, are you wrong about that? Were there parts of it she did enjoy? Could she show you what she does like so you guys can do that together? She may want to return to elementary stuff. She may also surprise you; she may be eager to have a go at the more advanced lessons once the pressure is completely removed.
Figuring out and following her learning style could be a really valuable thing to get out of this. My daughter has always had a thing where she is filled with contempt for things she hasn't quite got the hang of yet. If she's not at least 'pretty good' at it, she just won't. And for her entire life, she has stubbornly resisted going to the next level -- until one random day she feels confident about it, and a switch flips and she's off to the next level as though she was practicing away for ages. I did not chase her wobbly bike up and down the street, ever -- she just asked one day to have the training wheels taken off, and she took off, and that was it. I did not, once I noticed she could read at a higher level, push her to read at a higher level. She just de-cluttered her room of picture books on a random de-cluttering day. If your kid learns like my kid, she will enjoy repeating the easy stuff, and, on some seemingly random occasion, very quickly level up. Or not! But it is far more useful to know her learning style and work with that than it is to 'cajole and plead and threaten.' Leave the schools to try to fit her into a one-size-fits-all model; you have loads of freedom here to indulge her in figuring out how to love learning.
posted by kmennie at 11:56 AM on March 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
Also, speaking as someone's who's played multiple instruments for decades, getting stuck on a "plateau", where you simply can't seem to make any progress, is totally normal, it happens to me to this day. And taking a break from the instrument or working on something else is also totally normal - sometimes no amount of nose-to-the-grindstone will get you anywhere. The arts are like that, IMO. You have to let stuff kind of percolate underneath for a while, sometimes.
So if you're hoping to instill a love of music or piano in her, I think it could be worth easing up; maybe only 3 nights a week of practice, or 2 nights a week of "sit at the piano and do WHATEVER you want."
(If you're doing this to instill a level of self-discipline and work ethic in her - you've asked before about how to do that - it's worth considering whether 5 is the right age for your daughter or whether music lessons are the right method.)
posted by soundguy99 at 12:01 PM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
So if you're hoping to instill a love of music or piano in her, I think it could be worth easing up; maybe only 3 nights a week of practice, or 2 nights a week of "sit at the piano and do WHATEVER you want."
(If you're doing this to instill a level of self-discipline and work ethic in her - you've asked before about how to do that - it's worth considering whether 5 is the right age for your daughter or whether music lessons are the right method.)
posted by soundguy99 at 12:01 PM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I taught English a little after a few months of training in teaching techniques. Based on that, and knowing that a student of mine came from a particularly perfectionist background (which probably isn't your daughter, but he was older), I tried this:
Based on an understanding that my student was someone who worked sincerely, I actually started rewarding him for the number of mistakes he made. He liked jelly beans, so when he would make a small English mistake, I gave him a (small, Jelly Belly) jelly bean.
It lessened the tension considerably, and helped him enjoy the process more.
If I were doing it with a younger child with attention issues, I might:
1) look for an even smaller candy, although jelly beans might be fine -- or berries, or something else healthier but nice;
2) after a mistake, or an agreed number of seconds or attempts (probably 30 seconds) without success, give her a better reward if she was sincerely trying, and a lesser reward if she was just glued to the seat but looking for an escape;
3) (this is offered by a non-parent; you know best if this will help or hurt) if longer sessions aren't working, maybe try short sessions (even 5 minutes) interspersed with something big and physical, like jumping jacks or running around.
I'd also make a real effort to make _sure_ she gets enough sleep _and_ enough play running around exercise -- which you're probably doing, just checking.
posted by amtho at 12:17 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Based on an understanding that my student was someone who worked sincerely, I actually started rewarding him for the number of mistakes he made. He liked jelly beans, so when he would make a small English mistake, I gave him a (small, Jelly Belly) jelly bean.
It lessened the tension considerably, and helped him enjoy the process more.
If I were doing it with a younger child with attention issues, I might:
1) look for an even smaller candy, although jelly beans might be fine -- or berries, or something else healthier but nice;
2) after a mistake, or an agreed number of seconds or attempts (probably 30 seconds) without success, give her a better reward if she was sincerely trying, and a lesser reward if she was just glued to the seat but looking for an escape;
3) (this is offered by a non-parent; you know best if this will help or hurt) if longer sessions aren't working, maybe try short sessions (even 5 minutes) interspersed with something big and physical, like jumping jacks or running around.
I'd also make a real effort to make _sure_ she gets enough sleep _and_ enough play running around exercise -- which you're probably doing, just checking.
posted by amtho at 12:17 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: And nobody ever learned to play an instrument while hating the process.
Almost every skill you learn at some point has a terrible huge hump that you hate. If you never learn how to get over those, there are a lot of things you'll never get good at, and you won't get to enjoy them. Almost every skill I enjoy now has had one or more of these, and some of them I had to get over during childhood.
Now, this particular hump may or may not be worth trying to get over; I don't know enough to be able to tell. However, while making things fun in a giddy "whee!" kind of way is great, at some point, you have to break the expectation that nothing difficult or unpleasant is worth it. And I don't know if age 5 is the right time for that, but I do know that sometimes kids while whine hard and just get completely absorbed in something else a moment later. Pay careful attention; these may not be soul-destroying pleas but just an expression of "hey, this is difficult" expressed the only way she knows how.
posted by ignignokt at 12:22 PM on March 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Almost every skill you learn at some point has a terrible huge hump that you hate. If you never learn how to get over those, there are a lot of things you'll never get good at, and you won't get to enjoy them. Almost every skill I enjoy now has had one or more of these, and some of them I had to get over during childhood.
Now, this particular hump may or may not be worth trying to get over; I don't know enough to be able to tell. However, while making things fun in a giddy "whee!" kind of way is great, at some point, you have to break the expectation that nothing difficult or unpleasant is worth it. And I don't know if age 5 is the right time for that, but I do know that sometimes kids while whine hard and just get completely absorbed in something else a moment later. Pay careful attention; these may not be soul-destroying pleas but just an expression of "hey, this is difficult" expressed the only way she knows how.
posted by ignignokt at 12:22 PM on March 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Best answer: +theolodite's insight that the "quick learner" thing may be getting in the way here. As a child with natural musical proclivities, I excelled quickly at the easy stuff, but the moment things didn't come naturally to me, it felt very bad and frustrating to struggle at all, and found myself quickly procrastinating on things that were challenging because it wasn't very enjoyable to persist and keep trying. Even when I had a breakthrough, another challenge was just around the corner. And if I didn't practice regularly, my breakthroughs would rust and I'd have to climb the hill again. Every failure or challenge felt like a referendum on my status as musical child prodigy. It was a real hindrance to my progress, honestly.
I think you can undo some of this. Maybe back off on trying to make such quick and measurable progress. Maybe practice by simply playing things for fun, with no goal of getting "better". If every practice session is challenging, that is a bummer at any age. But particularly hard for a 5 year old. Do you ever just play for fun? What kept me playing the piano when I was a child was that I could just sit down and play the pieces I liked. Nobody was going to measure my progress or judge how I did. And I often played the same pieces over and over again for months.
I would also recommend qualitative praise of the sounds over the personal progress. "You tried so hard and you did it!" can be great, but a simple "that sounded very pretty" or "I really like that song" or "that was fun!" can bring a lot more enjoyment to it than the progress angle.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:32 PM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think you can undo some of this. Maybe back off on trying to make such quick and measurable progress. Maybe practice by simply playing things for fun, with no goal of getting "better". If every practice session is challenging, that is a bummer at any age. But particularly hard for a 5 year old. Do you ever just play for fun? What kept me playing the piano when I was a child was that I could just sit down and play the pieces I liked. Nobody was going to measure my progress or judge how I did. And I often played the same pieces over and over again for months.
I would also recommend qualitative praise of the sounds over the personal progress. "You tried so hard and you did it!" can be great, but a simple "that sounded very pretty" or "I really like that song" or "that was fun!" can bring a lot more enjoyment to it than the progress angle.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:32 PM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I agree that you're facing a tricky balancing act, between pushing her enough so that she gets over a hump in learning (which is itself a valuable lesson) and not pushing her so hard that what she really gets is a distaste for piano. I can't tell enough from your post where you are on that balance.
My daughter started violin at five, because she asked for it. She practiced, but hated any form of correction from me. ANY. She would practice much more happily if left on her own, and often that meant not playing the pieces she should have been learning for class, but just playing (and sometimes that meant some awful noises came out of her violin). At the beginning I was just like you -- pushing the practice times, correcting, cajoling, praising, whatever. I learned from her that being totally hands off on the specifics, but absolutely requiring that she practice, was the right balance. Playing is the way children learn, so when she was permitted to make practicing play, she was fine. When it was structured, she balked.
As evidence for how this turned out, when she was a bit older and more skilled, she took her page of music for the Can-Can, flipped it upside down, and played the piece that way. She called it the Nac-Nac. She had developed that creative impulse, because obviously no one ever told her she needed to learn that piece of "music."
I'd suggest focusing on the fun and games part of practicing, and in particular letting your daughter goof around on the keys without any structure or even company. If she spends 10 minutes at the keyboard doing whatever inspires her, she'll learn something. And if she goes to class and feels way behind and that bothers her, she may well choose to practice the class pieces on her own.
I know the program encourages parents to reinforce the learning at home. My daughter's Suzuki program pushed that so hard I bought a violin for myself. It was far better for my daughter, however, to let her do it on her own. She's 12 now, and so good she's regularly asked to perform with adults. This is all her doing; my job was to write the checks and keep her black dress ironed. That said, I have told her, repeatedly, that as long as she lives in my home she will take violin lessons and she will practice. This is expected of her; the specific form of practice, and how good she gets, is entirely in her hands.
So, I'd suggest backing off on what she plays, and instead just have a specific time each evening when she's expected and encouraged to sit at the piano and play anything. Requiring that she just be there is far less stressful for both of you, and if she knows she can bang out anything she wants, it'll open up many possibilities for her.
Good for you for searching for the right way to balance these tricky lessons.
posted by Capri at 12:40 PM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
My daughter started violin at five, because she asked for it. She practiced, but hated any form of correction from me. ANY. She would practice much more happily if left on her own, and often that meant not playing the pieces she should have been learning for class, but just playing (and sometimes that meant some awful noises came out of her violin). At the beginning I was just like you -- pushing the practice times, correcting, cajoling, praising, whatever. I learned from her that being totally hands off on the specifics, but absolutely requiring that she practice, was the right balance. Playing is the way children learn, so when she was permitted to make practicing play, she was fine. When it was structured, she balked.
As evidence for how this turned out, when she was a bit older and more skilled, she took her page of music for the Can-Can, flipped it upside down, and played the piece that way. She called it the Nac-Nac. She had developed that creative impulse, because obviously no one ever told her she needed to learn that piece of "music."
I'd suggest focusing on the fun and games part of practicing, and in particular letting your daughter goof around on the keys without any structure or even company. If she spends 10 minutes at the keyboard doing whatever inspires her, she'll learn something. And if she goes to class and feels way behind and that bothers her, she may well choose to practice the class pieces on her own.
I know the program encourages parents to reinforce the learning at home. My daughter's Suzuki program pushed that so hard I bought a violin for myself. It was far better for my daughter, however, to let her do it on her own. She's 12 now, and so good she's regularly asked to perform with adults. This is all her doing; my job was to write the checks and keep her black dress ironed. That said, I have told her, repeatedly, that as long as she lives in my home she will take violin lessons and she will practice. This is expected of her; the specific form of practice, and how good she gets, is entirely in her hands.
So, I'd suggest backing off on what she plays, and instead just have a specific time each evening when she's expected and encouraged to sit at the piano and play anything. Requiring that she just be there is far less stressful for both of you, and if she knows she can bang out anything she wants, it'll open up many possibilities for her.
Good for you for searching for the right way to balance these tricky lessons.
posted by Capri at 12:40 PM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone, fantastic answers and very helpful. I think I see now that l need to back off a bit, return to some of the older pieces that she enjoys playing and bring games back into our practicing. I need to stop worrying so much about whether or not we are keeping up with the program. I'm also going to talk to her teacher and she what she has to say. Maybe we can focus on just one piece instead of the 3 or so (this week, 6!) we are supposed to be doing. It is a fun class with a decent amount of play, but then we get sent home with an encouragement to practice 5-7 times a week (incentivized with the very public doling out of stickers and prize tickets) and the pieces are getting very difficult. Rather than succumbing to my own fear of failure I should be trying to keep the spirit of fun of in it at home, which is what the founder of this program surely intended.
posted by kitcat at 1:18 PM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 1:18 PM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
6 pieces at once in a week?! How is a five-year-old supposed to be able to handle that? Seriously, how? I'm thirty-five and that sounds daunting to me! How do you think you would react to being told to do that? I'll bet you'd whine and put it off! I know I would. How could you expect any better from a five-year-old? (Is she even in first grade yet? Has she even learned addition and subtraction?) I mean, it might have worked for Mozart, but you're not obligated to make your child the next Mozart. Give the kid a break!
I briefly took piano lessons when I was around 7, but I stopped because I hated it. I had been a music fan, but around that time, I lost all interest in music (playing or listening to it) for several years. When I was 13, I rediscovered music on my own, and I made the choice to take rock guitar lessons. Later I became more interested in the Beatles and classical music, so I went back to piano lessons. Needless to say, taking lessons when I was older, was passionate about it, and had decided to do it, was more productive than being forced to do it as a young child.
posted by John Cohen at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I briefly took piano lessons when I was around 7, but I stopped because I hated it. I had been a music fan, but around that time, I lost all interest in music (playing or listening to it) for several years. When I was 13, I rediscovered music on my own, and I made the choice to take rock guitar lessons. Later I became more interested in the Beatles and classical music, so I went back to piano lessons. Needless to say, taking lessons when I was older, was passionate about it, and had decided to do it, was more productive than being forced to do it as a young child.
posted by John Cohen at 3:29 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think we need to separate two concerns here.
The first concern is learning the necessary self-discipline to drill yourself in something you love, even when you don't feel like it.
The second concern is the Learning Should Be Fun thing.
These two things are not the same. Learning Should Be Fun is, as some have pointed out, simply not always true. However, the fact that Learning Is Not Always Fun is not a reason to kill a child's musicality stone dead with pressure and nagging.
The first concern becomes less urgent when a child is self-motivated to learn. I can't say I practiced absolutely consistently as a child, but I also knew that that was all on me and *my* inconsistent self-discipline, because by definition *nobody else* could do this for me, it *had* to be me. Self-discipline is the only real discipline there is. That was clear to me from an early age.
Did I grow up to be a musician? No, but music wasn't ever going to be my professional speciality anyway. I took that self-motivation and applied it to other things, and I have excelled in them.
Agreeing with others that six pieces is simply far too much for a five-year-old child - no wonder it's difficult. It's difficult because it's too much at once.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 PM on March 17, 2016
The first concern is learning the necessary self-discipline to drill yourself in something you love, even when you don't feel like it.
The second concern is the Learning Should Be Fun thing.
These two things are not the same. Learning Should Be Fun is, as some have pointed out, simply not always true. However, the fact that Learning Is Not Always Fun is not a reason to kill a child's musicality stone dead with pressure and nagging.
The first concern becomes less urgent when a child is self-motivated to learn. I can't say I practiced absolutely consistently as a child, but I also knew that that was all on me and *my* inconsistent self-discipline, because by definition *nobody else* could do this for me, it *had* to be me. Self-discipline is the only real discipline there is. That was clear to me from an early age.
Did I grow up to be a musician? No, but music wasn't ever going to be my professional speciality anyway. I took that self-motivation and applied it to other things, and I have excelled in them.
Agreeing with others that six pieces is simply far too much for a five-year-old child - no wonder it's difficult. It's difficult because it's too much at once.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 PM on March 17, 2016
Your mileage may vary, sure-- but when I was taught music teaching methodology (and I was taught music teaching methodology), five was seen as just a bit too early.
IF, they said, you want to teach kids that young, and the kids want it, too, you need to absolutely focus on a playful (and relatively short-term) approach, and never on demands (certainly not on demands from some anonymous über-conscience called the fast pace of the program).
Now, if your daughter is a quick learner and actually has kept up with the program and all those pieces up till now, she may well be ahead of her age a little, but perhaps she wants to let the stuff she just learned sink in (like everyone would, really) and thus needs some slack in the expectations department, i.e. needs to not be pushed ahead to play more, and more difficult, music in a stressful manner. Stress is the enemy no.1 for good relaxed learning. You don't want that in your homela
And if the following is your ambition, lets say it out aloud: stress is also enemy no.1 for successful professional music making. It's something that sticks to a person for an entire life. It has destroyed professional musicians' careers. Back off, not just a bit, but a lot.
Oh and this: she expects to be able to put a half-hearted attempt into something and have it come out great.
What kids that age often want is to please their parents and to live up to their expectations. What kids that age also want is to play: to play is the work of children, it's the way they learn, it's a life necessity for children. So if expectations are high and playtime gets restricted, conflicts arise, and it begins to seem like your daughter wants an easy way out. She wants to get away from the pressure, is all, and she has all the right of the world to want that.
posted by Namlit at 4:31 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
IF, they said, you want to teach kids that young, and the kids want it, too, you need to absolutely focus on a playful (and relatively short-term) approach, and never on demands (certainly not on demands from some anonymous über-conscience called the fast pace of the program).
Now, if your daughter is a quick learner and actually has kept up with the program and all those pieces up till now, she may well be ahead of her age a little, but perhaps she wants to let the stuff she just learned sink in (like everyone would, really) and thus needs some slack in the expectations department, i.e. needs to not be pushed ahead to play more, and more difficult, music in a stressful manner. Stress is the enemy no.1 for good relaxed learning. You don't want that in your homela
And if the following is your ambition, lets say it out aloud: stress is also enemy no.1 for successful professional music making. It's something that sticks to a person for an entire life. It has destroyed professional musicians' careers. Back off, not just a bit, but a lot.
Oh and this: she expects to be able to put a half-hearted attempt into something and have it come out great.
What kids that age often want is to please their parents and to live up to their expectations. What kids that age also want is to play: to play is the work of children, it's the way they learn, it's a life necessity for children. So if expectations are high and playtime gets restricted, conflicts arise, and it begins to seem like your daughter wants an easy way out. She wants to get away from the pressure, is all, and she has all the right of the world to want that.
posted by Namlit at 4:31 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
In addition to all of the excellent advice in this thread: do you guys have an electric piano? If so, give her a pair of headphones. I hated the idea that anyone could hear me practicing as a kid, and I got much better at the instrument when I got one that no one could hear but me.
posted by capricorn at 5:13 PM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 5:13 PM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
we get sent home with an encouragement to practice 5-7 times a week (incentivized with the very public doling out of stickers and prize tickets) and the pieces are getting very difficult. Rather than succumbing to my own fear of failure I should be trying to keep the spirit of fun of in it at home
You're worried your daughter is going to embarrass you. You're threatening time-outs because a 5 year-old is not patient enough to practice about 6 pieces 5-7 times a week so that you won't be embarrassed when other people get more stickers than you guys? She's not your teammate, she's your child. If you want to take piano lessons, take piano lessons. If you want your daughter to take piano lessons, let her take piano lessons. It sounds like this current class you're in is too competitive for you. Don't punish your daughter because of that.
My mother was extremely caught up in the perception that I was embarrassing her in front of other people when I was a kid. Every single time, my greatest transgression was being 5 - or 6, or 7, or 10, whatever. From your previous questions it looks like you think that your mother was a little too hands off, or lazy, as you characterized it. Please please please try to remember that parenting is about meeting your own child's needs, not providing your child something that you felt you needed when you were being parented.
posted by good lorneing at 7:21 PM on March 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
You're worried your daughter is going to embarrass you. You're threatening time-outs because a 5 year-old is not patient enough to practice about 6 pieces 5-7 times a week so that you won't be embarrassed when other people get more stickers than you guys? She's not your teammate, she's your child. If you want to take piano lessons, take piano lessons. If you want your daughter to take piano lessons, let her take piano lessons. It sounds like this current class you're in is too competitive for you. Don't punish your daughter because of that.
My mother was extremely caught up in the perception that I was embarrassing her in front of other people when I was a kid. Every single time, my greatest transgression was being 5 - or 6, or 7, or 10, whatever. From your previous questions it looks like you think that your mother was a little too hands off, or lazy, as you characterized it. Please please please try to remember that parenting is about meeting your own child's needs, not providing your child something that you felt you needed when you were being parented.
posted by good lorneing at 7:21 PM on March 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
I learned piano and hated most of my years of lessons. Nonetheless I have my five year old learning piano and after a few false starts I've figured out how to keep it light. I really didn't want it to tuyrn into a battle of wills. First, I tried several teachers until we found someone who was very playful. Then I got out the rewards. Child is very fond of jelly beans. But just promising jelly beans didn't work. Instead I got out a handful of jelly beans and put them right on top of the piano where he can see them. The first few days I gave him a jelly bean for sitting down, for putting his hands out correctly, for playing a song one time, etc. Now he is sitting down voluntarily to practice and self administering the rewards as he plays for ten to fifteen minutes several times a week. I don't sit next tho him any more and I don't really care what pieces he is playing as long as he is playing. So, hooray!
posted by bq at 7:52 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:52 PM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
If she's interested in or curious about music, how about giving her a choice of which instrument to learn (or alternatively do vocal lessons) so she has some control and some ownership of what she's doing? I think what you probably really want or intend to do is help her develop an appreciation for music. I think giving her some time and space to chart and enjoy that process at a pace that is comfortable for her is important. Be careful of getting sucked into the parenting trend these days of being overly metrics-oriented. As other people have mentioned above, sometimes stepping back and doing less actually accomplishes more. I'm always a little skeptical about extrinsic rewards because of the obvious risk that the child won't internalize the enjoyment and appreciation that you are trying to nurture, but some parents have mentioned above that it has seemed to work for them. Perhaps extrinsic rewards are suitable for some kids and not others.
posted by OCDan at 11:44 PM on March 17, 2016
posted by OCDan at 11:44 PM on March 17, 2016
I'm not a musician and didn't play as a child, I just wanted to expand on rewards and consequences for children. Some teachers follow a kind of hiearchy of consequences that might be helpful.
Ideally, a child is self motivated to do an activity (no grades or stickers required). This is what others are touching on when they ask if your daughter actually wants to play piano.
But, if a child needs extra incentives start by offering something good (if you play piano for 5 minutes you can have a candy) or offer to take away something bad (if you play piano for 5 minutes then you don't have to take out the garbage tonight). This keeps the experience positive.
Only rarely should you threaten to add something bad (if you don't play piano you will have to go to bed early) or threaten to take away something good (if you don't play piano you can't have any screen time). This creates a negative experience.
Personally, I would ask for her input. Even a 5 year old can begin to think of solutions for problems. "I noticed piano practice seems less fun. Do you still want to play piano? (If so) what can we do to make it more fun again?" (Listen to her suggestions and help her with vocabulary and expressing herself as needed, of course).
posted by eisforcool at 9:39 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ideally, a child is self motivated to do an activity (no grades or stickers required). This is what others are touching on when they ask if your daughter actually wants to play piano.
But, if a child needs extra incentives start by offering something good (if you play piano for 5 minutes you can have a candy) or offer to take away something bad (if you play piano for 5 minutes then you don't have to take out the garbage tonight). This keeps the experience positive.
Only rarely should you threaten to add something bad (if you don't play piano you will have to go to bed early) or threaten to take away something good (if you don't play piano you can't have any screen time). This creates a negative experience.
Personally, I would ask for her input. Even a 5 year old can begin to think of solutions for problems. "I noticed piano practice seems less fun. Do you still want to play piano? (If so) what can we do to make it more fun again?" (Listen to her suggestions and help her with vocabulary and expressing herself as needed, of course).
posted by eisforcool at 9:39 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by lizbunny at 10:05 AM on March 17, 2016 [5 favorites]