Is this a phase?
February 27, 2016 11:28 AM Subscribe
I feel like my child is a prickly butt. I would like to know if this is normal for an almost five year old.
Background: Kid Nom has spent the last two years being a budding scientist and philosopher with a strong analytic streak. She's somewhat introverted but not shy with peers, and prefers getting her own way to hanging out with the group. She has a long attention span. She knows and easily expresses what she wants and with prompting will strike deals. She's not picky in general. She always had a short fuse. She never had a terrible two tantrumming phase.
Suddenly she's having the Fuck You Fours or something? She's always short and grumpy, playing games where she gives orders like Napoleon and screams at you if you do it "wrong". Will not often accept any idea, offering or contribution from me. Except maybe food. I can effectively spoil an idea for her by coming up with it first . If you give her something she didn't ask for, instead of "no, thank you" she screams "NO!" and throws it on the ground. If we don't do something exactly to protocol, she yells at us.
She suddenly will not do anything, like getting dressed, in a timely fashion. She'll only get to it if I put on my boots and tell her I'm leaving without her, now.
Our whole day is getting bogged down like treacle because she sabotages every step, runs away or refuses to move. She'll choose things she knows we don't allow. If we make an exception, she pouts and wants something else instead.
I've got a headache. What happened to my reasonable child?
Then there is the hitting. She hits her sister when her sister says "no" to her, which sister does with relish, and often. I've tried to approach it like in "siblings without rivalry" - people aren't for hitting, people are for telling. Tell her how you feel. But she doesn't know or feels put on the spot.
And of course just this week she has discovered lying. She used to be scrupulous, to the point where she got annoyed with us: "No, she didn't trip! I hit her!"
Now all that formidable brain power is channeled into experimenting with how much we'll believe.
Is this all normal?
Part of me feels like I dropped the ball somewhere and turned her into a rude, spoilt brat of a child.
I miss laughing with her. The real smiles. It's all so frenetic and she only seems to have fun when it's on her own terms.
Background: Kid Nom has spent the last two years being a budding scientist and philosopher with a strong analytic streak. She's somewhat introverted but not shy with peers, and prefers getting her own way to hanging out with the group. She has a long attention span. She knows and easily expresses what she wants and with prompting will strike deals. She's not picky in general. She always had a short fuse. She never had a terrible two tantrumming phase.
Suddenly she's having the Fuck You Fours or something? She's always short and grumpy, playing games where she gives orders like Napoleon and screams at you if you do it "wrong". Will not often accept any idea, offering or contribution from me. Except maybe food. I can effectively spoil an idea for her by coming up with it first . If you give her something she didn't ask for, instead of "no, thank you" she screams "NO!" and throws it on the ground. If we don't do something exactly to protocol, she yells at us.
She suddenly will not do anything, like getting dressed, in a timely fashion. She'll only get to it if I put on my boots and tell her I'm leaving without her, now.
Our whole day is getting bogged down like treacle because she sabotages every step, runs away or refuses to move. She'll choose things she knows we don't allow. If we make an exception, she pouts and wants something else instead.
I've got a headache. What happened to my reasonable child?
Then there is the hitting. She hits her sister when her sister says "no" to her, which sister does with relish, and often. I've tried to approach it like in "siblings without rivalry" - people aren't for hitting, people are for telling. Tell her how you feel. But she doesn't know or feels put on the spot.
And of course just this week she has discovered lying. She used to be scrupulous, to the point where she got annoyed with us: "No, she didn't trip! I hit her!"
Now all that formidable brain power is channeled into experimenting with how much we'll believe.
Is this all normal?
Part of me feels like I dropped the ball somewhere and turned her into a rude, spoilt brat of a child.
I miss laughing with her. The real smiles. It's all so frenetic and she only seems to have fun when it's on her own terms.
Response by poster: Just to clarify, I'm not really looking for solutions but explanations of wtf just happened here?!
posted by Omnomnom at 11:37 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Omnomnom at 11:37 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Definitely possible for this to just be a normal phase. For example, my hell-cat of a 4 year old is now a lovely, pleasant, charming, funny 14 year old young man.
But I know that doesn't help much when you're right in the middle of it. When he was 4 I felt like a complete failure as a mother, and the days I had to carry him screaming out of daycare were miserable. I thought for sure he must have some personality disorder or some other diagnosable "thing" but it turned out that he was just a kid who liked things done his way.
He still likes things his way, but as he's matured he's learned how to deal with others in a more productive way than biting or hitting.
All this to say: this may just be a phase, but it totally SUCKS when you're going through it.
Courage :)
posted by thatone at 11:49 AM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
But I know that doesn't help much when you're right in the middle of it. When he was 4 I felt like a complete failure as a mother, and the days I had to carry him screaming out of daycare were miserable. I thought for sure he must have some personality disorder or some other diagnosable "thing" but it turned out that he was just a kid who liked things done his way.
He still likes things his way, but as he's matured he's learned how to deal with others in a more productive way than biting or hitting.
All this to say: this may just be a phase, but it totally SUCKS when you're going through it.
Courage :)
posted by thatone at 11:49 AM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sleep changes, or other significant change in surroundings/routine? Has she been ill?
Is she having any repetitive behaviors, odd noises/ blinking, or rigidity around previously normal tasks?
posted by thebrokedown at 11:51 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is she having any repetitive behaviors, odd noises/ blinking, or rigidity around previously normal tasks?
posted by thebrokedown at 11:51 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not really looking for solutions but explanations of wtf just happened here?
That's what happened.
Actively solve the problem and correct her behavior. She's a little kid and is going to do whatever she wants until she learns she can't.
As my dad is fond of saying, "the mistake most people make is treating children like they're little people."
posted by paulcole at 11:52 AM on February 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
That's what happened.
Actively solve the problem and correct her behavior. She's a little kid and is going to do whatever she wants until she learns she can't.
As my dad is fond of saying, "the mistake most people make is treating children like they're little people."
posted by paulcole at 11:52 AM on February 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
Response by poster: She did have a pretty bad bronchitis two weeks ago. Now Little Sis is keeping us up during the night by teething.
Physically, Kid Nom seems pretty normal.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:59 AM on February 27, 2016
Physically, Kid Nom seems pretty normal.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:59 AM on February 27, 2016
Sounds completely normal to me. That she has a little sister makes it even more normal, though one of my cousins was like that as a little sister, and she now has two of them. They will grow out of it, but it is frustrating while it's on
Unsolicited advice: pick your battles. Don't make everyday life into a battle of wills, because most likely she will win and that would be bad, short and long term.
Do create a framework of rules, or strengthen the ones you have. (Say thank you, be polite, don't hit etc.)
posted by mumimor at 12:03 PM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Unsolicited advice: pick your battles. Don't make everyday life into a battle of wills, because most likely she will win and that would be bad, short and long term.
Do create a framework of rules, or strengthen the ones you have. (Say thank you, be polite, don't hit etc.)
posted by mumimor at 12:03 PM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Although I suppose there may be a specific answer regarding cause, it doesn't seem NOT normal to me. Kids do all kind of things while they're growing up and change in unpredictable ways—you might drive yourself 'round the bend if you try to figure out the "why" every single time. I think what you have here is an unlimited number of "teachable" moments.
Hang in there, Mom. There will be a few dozen more "phases" before she leaves for college.
posted by she's not there at 12:09 PM on February 27, 2016
Hang in there, Mom. There will be a few dozen more "phases" before she leaves for college.
posted by she's not there at 12:09 PM on February 27, 2016
Seconding mumimor re "pick your battles".
posted by she's not there at 12:10 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by she's not there at 12:10 PM on February 27, 2016
Response by poster: I suppose it's easier for me to find effective ways of communicating boundaries if I have an idea of what's going on inside their little heads. That's what worked for me in the past.
But yeah. Thanks so far! I'm reassessing my parenting as we speak!
posted by Omnomnom at 12:13 PM on February 27, 2016
But yeah. Thanks so far! I'm reassessing my parenting as we speak!
posted by Omnomnom at 12:13 PM on February 27, 2016
Whatever you do, do NOT give in or "make exceptions" to mellow her behavior. Unless you WANT to encourage the behavior?
It's still perfectly appropriate, when there's a choice to be made, to give her just two choices. In other words, it's not "What fruit do you want with lunch?", it's "Do you want a banana or an apple?" The inappropriate options should never be a choice in the first place.
If it's a non-negotiable, a this-must-happen, like getting in the car, or going to bed, simply calm persistence is what you need. Repetitive, calm, deadpan persistence. Do not bribe, do not try to trick them into it, do not resort to some routine or pattern that they can keep adding things to - simply calm and persistent.
Do not threaten things you do not absolutely intend to follow through on. At all. Don't say "We won't go to the park" if it's something YOU want to do and aren't willing to give up. Do not say "We'll leave the store if you keep acting up" unless you're willing to walk up to an employee or the courtesy desk with a misbehaving child, tell them you're sorry, could you please put the items away, you'll return at a later time. All in a calm, non-reactive manner.
If you've told them to do - or not do - something, tell them once, and then enforce it instead of saying it again. Not in an angry way, just in an ok, I see you need help, so I'll calmly make sure you DO it. Remove the temptation, relocate the child, whatever needs to happen.
THAT is how you can best get them through this- all of childhood, really - and yes, it does make for some excellent people in the long run. They learn that misbehavior will get them absolutely NOWHERE. And that is the goal.
posted by stormyteal at 12:16 PM on February 27, 2016 [30 favorites]
It's still perfectly appropriate, when there's a choice to be made, to give her just two choices. In other words, it's not "What fruit do you want with lunch?", it's "Do you want a banana or an apple?" The inappropriate options should never be a choice in the first place.
If it's a non-negotiable, a this-must-happen, like getting in the car, or going to bed, simply calm persistence is what you need. Repetitive, calm, deadpan persistence. Do not bribe, do not try to trick them into it, do not resort to some routine or pattern that they can keep adding things to - simply calm and persistent.
Do not threaten things you do not absolutely intend to follow through on. At all. Don't say "We won't go to the park" if it's something YOU want to do and aren't willing to give up. Do not say "We'll leave the store if you keep acting up" unless you're willing to walk up to an employee or the courtesy desk with a misbehaving child, tell them you're sorry, could you please put the items away, you'll return at a later time. All in a calm, non-reactive manner.
If you've told them to do - or not do - something, tell them once, and then enforce it instead of saying it again. Not in an angry way, just in an ok, I see you need help, so I'll calmly make sure you DO it. Remove the temptation, relocate the child, whatever needs to happen.
THAT is how you can best get them through this- all of childhood, really - and yes, it does make for some excellent people in the long run. They learn that misbehavior will get them absolutely NOWHERE. And that is the goal.
posted by stormyteal at 12:16 PM on February 27, 2016 [30 favorites]
It seems likely to me that it's a phase. My younger sibling was terrible at four. How do I know? My mom was still mentioning it more than twenty years later. Also, if I was summarizing parenting folk wisdom on a 3x5 card, it would say "Four - terrible; Five -angelic." (I'm not actually promising you "angelic", but I've heard tell that five year olds on average give their parents much less shit than four year olds.)
posted by puddledork at 12:21 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by puddledork at 12:21 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is perfectly normal. She's just starting to understand her autonomy as a separate being from her parents and is naturally trying to push the boundaries to figure it out. She should grow out of it as she begins to recognize that others have their own internal world too.
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:25 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:25 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Join a gifted parents discussion group online. They will have similar experiences, books to suggest, etc. Don't assume "it is a phase and will pass on its own." Do assume that whatever went wrong was innocent cluelessness on the part of all involved parties.
This is not that weird for a gifted kid. Normal parenting advice and normal parenting books may not be helpful. But if you hang with other parents of gifted kids, you will find answers.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 12:27 PM on February 27, 2016
This is not that weird for a gifted kid. Normal parenting advice and normal parenting books may not be helpful. But if you hang with other parents of gifted kids, you will find answers.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 12:27 PM on February 27, 2016
it's easier for me to find effective ways of communicating boundaries if I have an idea of what's going on inside their little heads
I TOTALLY understand this, which is why I know you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out what they're thinking.
(My kids are now adults who I love spending time with. Despite the odds, I appear to have survived with sanity relatively intact.)
posted by she's not there at 12:27 PM on February 27, 2016
I TOTALLY understand this, which is why I know you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out what they're thinking.
(My kids are now adults who I love spending time with. Despite the odds, I appear to have survived with sanity relatively intact.)
posted by she's not there at 12:27 PM on February 27, 2016
Kids go through all kinds of phases and there's no rhyme or reason unless, of course, she's sick or under emotional stress. I'd think about positive reinforcement rather than wracking your brain over the "why." I say this because, regardless of the reason of "how" this happened, you still need a solution. Maybe it's a phase, maybe it's something you did/didn't do (though I seriously doubt that!) but either way... you are where you are.
Do you have a special time that you spend with her every day, regardless of her behavior? Maybe she needs more 1:1 attention from you? Maybe she needs clear boundaries and more rules around the house? I worked with a 6-year-old child as a nanny, and she was adopted and had a lot of issues with authority, listening, hitting, biting, throwing fits, etc. What worked the best - better than "time-out" which is essentially a negative punishment - was shoring her up and complimenting her as "a big girl." Acknowledging that she was a big girl with big girl responsibilities. She bought that hook line and sinker, it was a positive thing, and it helped me to get her to reframe her behavior as something that "babies do." Babies hit, babies scream, babies bite when they're angry. Big girls keep their hands to themselves, talk instead of scream, and big girls don't hurt others. Big girls get to help make cupcakes, babies don't. Big girls get to ride their skateboard (yes, she had a skateboard), babies don't.
Her desire for independence was a huge motivator, and if you can leverage something like that with your child, you're halfway there. I've worked with kids who had issues like this on a clinical level, not the normal stuff that you're describing, but clinical issues, but regardless of "normal or not normal" labels, all children need to feel empowered. They need to feel safe. And for all children, rules are safety. They need consistency. I think you can mitigate this behavior as much as possible by being consistent and sending the clear message that it's not acceptable. Not through punishment or time out necessarily, but something like, for every hour she doesn't hit or bite, she gets a gold star. 8 gold stars in a day means ice cream. Or whatever. Make her work for it! ("Big girls get behavior charts!")
I just wonder if this is a phase for her, and she needs help getting through it. By getting her to the next step emotionally - reframing how she sees herself in her little world - you may be able to help her internalize that she can make better choices. Ultimately you want her to choose not to scream, bite, or hit. But she's a kid, she's growing, and sometimes kids get stuck emotionally in between phases, because emotional growth is not linear. She's getting something out of the negative behavior, whether it's attention or a feeling of power over herself or others. Whatever she's seeking, she's not going to be able to tell you. As someone else wisely said, you have many many teachable moments with her - where you both learn something!
Have you considered a play therapist? In that environment, she could enact whatever it is that's upsetting her in a place where it's therapeutic and you'd get a professional opinion about her behavior. It doesn't mean you'd have to keep going - you can just do a consult or one or two sessions. The benefit to it is that you'd get some perspective on what other children do, because a play therapist sees a wide range of behavior across the spectrum of what's considered normal/abnormal.
Best of luck!
posted by onecircleaday at 12:34 PM on February 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Do you have a special time that you spend with her every day, regardless of her behavior? Maybe she needs more 1:1 attention from you? Maybe she needs clear boundaries and more rules around the house? I worked with a 6-year-old child as a nanny, and she was adopted and had a lot of issues with authority, listening, hitting, biting, throwing fits, etc. What worked the best - better than "time-out" which is essentially a negative punishment - was shoring her up and complimenting her as "a big girl." Acknowledging that she was a big girl with big girl responsibilities. She bought that hook line and sinker, it was a positive thing, and it helped me to get her to reframe her behavior as something that "babies do." Babies hit, babies scream, babies bite when they're angry. Big girls keep their hands to themselves, talk instead of scream, and big girls don't hurt others. Big girls get to help make cupcakes, babies don't. Big girls get to ride their skateboard (yes, she had a skateboard), babies don't.
Her desire for independence was a huge motivator, and if you can leverage something like that with your child, you're halfway there. I've worked with kids who had issues like this on a clinical level, not the normal stuff that you're describing, but clinical issues, but regardless of "normal or not normal" labels, all children need to feel empowered. They need to feel safe. And for all children, rules are safety. They need consistency. I think you can mitigate this behavior as much as possible by being consistent and sending the clear message that it's not acceptable. Not through punishment or time out necessarily, but something like, for every hour she doesn't hit or bite, she gets a gold star. 8 gold stars in a day means ice cream. Or whatever. Make her work for it! ("Big girls get behavior charts!")
I just wonder if this is a phase for her, and she needs help getting through it. By getting her to the next step emotionally - reframing how she sees herself in her little world - you may be able to help her internalize that she can make better choices. Ultimately you want her to choose not to scream, bite, or hit. But she's a kid, she's growing, and sometimes kids get stuck emotionally in between phases, because emotional growth is not linear. She's getting something out of the negative behavior, whether it's attention or a feeling of power over herself or others. Whatever she's seeking, she's not going to be able to tell you. As someone else wisely said, you have many many teachable moments with her - where you both learn something!
Have you considered a play therapist? In that environment, she could enact whatever it is that's upsetting her in a place where it's therapeutic and you'd get a professional opinion about her behavior. It doesn't mean you'd have to keep going - you can just do a consult or one or two sessions. The benefit to it is that you'd get some perspective on what other children do, because a play therapist sees a wide range of behavior across the spectrum of what's considered normal/abnormal.
Best of luck!
posted by onecircleaday at 12:34 PM on February 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Also, if you're interested, this book comes highly recommended.
posted by onecircleaday at 12:38 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by onecircleaday at 12:38 PM on February 27, 2016
My kid is like this off and on. Part of it is personality - he's stubborn as fuck - but he also gets more emotional and reactive during a developmental shift. An upswing in whining around 4.5 was followed by learning to read & write, the ability to sit and do a complicated Lego set, and massive large motor shifts.
My experience is that the whining and being demanding is in some ways a response to being more capable: It's awesome and terrifying to grow up. When I can remember that, I try to approach it in two ways:
1) Respond dispassionately to tantrums/whining/bratty behavior. I calmly maintain boundaries, and don't let myself get sucked into whatever emotional storm is happening now.
2) Increase affection and "special time" (focused, one on one parent-kid time) when kid isn't being bratty.
posted by linettasky at 1:00 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
My experience is that the whining and being demanding is in some ways a response to being more capable: It's awesome and terrifying to grow up. When I can remember that, I try to approach it in two ways:
1) Respond dispassionately to tantrums/whining/bratty behavior. I calmly maintain boundaries, and don't let myself get sucked into whatever emotional storm is happening now.
2) Increase affection and "special time" (focused, one on one parent-kid time) when kid isn't being bratty.
posted by linettasky at 1:00 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
My younger son is almost 4, and he's been having some serious Generalissimo tyke-tyrant moments lately. I think we just have to endure until certain synapses connect properly.
posted by umbú at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by umbú at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016
I suppose it's easier for me to find effective ways of communicating boundaries if I have an idea of what's going on inside their little heads. That's what worked for me in the past.
IANAParent, but this seems like a limited strategy, especially as the human gets older and their motivations can get even more inscrutable. Seems like a good way to retain your sanity here is to just focus on the boundaries and the behavior and not so much the "why." In the cause and effect equation, you only have to point out the line and the effect, let the kid figure out the cause (why they transgressed the boundary).
posted by rhizome at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
IANAParent, but this seems like a limited strategy, especially as the human gets older and their motivations can get even more inscrutable. Seems like a good way to retain your sanity here is to just focus on the boundaries and the behavior and not so much the "why." In the cause and effect equation, you only have to point out the line and the effect, let the kid figure out the cause (why they transgressed the boundary).
posted by rhizome at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just a phase. My sister was a grumpy brat at four and she's now a lovely young woman. I can't remember when she snapped out of it but around 5 sounds right.
This too shall pass!
posted by kitten magic at 1:06 PM on February 27, 2016
This too shall pass!
posted by kitten magic at 1:06 PM on February 27, 2016
Sounds to me (father of three) that she is normal and normal is trying to test boundaries, independence and her ability to get her way. I think she will grow out of it pretty quickly too if you are consistent in your message that you don't negotiate with terrorists. If you start negotiating now, you will still be negotiating for the next 20 years.
posted by AugustWest at 1:13 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 1:13 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
My daughter just turned 5. This sounds pretty normal.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:19 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:19 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was a lot like your kid - definitely the budding scientist with an analytical streak, and also always wanted to get my way. I went through a somewhat similar phase around 8 or 9 years old. It lasted a year or two. I got over it eventually and do not struggle with anger issues now, though dealing with real disappointment is still hard. So your kid's experience does sound within the range of normal to me.
I think my angry outbursts arose, in part, because I suddenly had all these emotions and opinions and didn't really know what to do with them. It was like some part of my brain had matured and all of a sudden I could feel -- really feel -- what it meant to be angry, or upset, or disappointed, or frustrated. Possibly it was the realization that hey, the world doesn't actually revolve around me, grrr, but maybe if I forcefully take charge they'll still listen to what I have to say? I had no idea how to handle these things yet because they had never been such an intense experience before.
What I would have loved at the time would be for my parents to say, lovingly and with compassion, "Hey, I know it's hard when you feel angry. I still love you. Do you want a [comforting object/food] or to just sit by yourself for bit?" That would put a name on this bewildering new feeling, remind Kid Nom that you still love her, and teach her some coping strategies too. It's the "I still love you" that's key, though, in my mind.
posted by danceswithlight at 1:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think my angry outbursts arose, in part, because I suddenly had all these emotions and opinions and didn't really know what to do with them. It was like some part of my brain had matured and all of a sudden I could feel -- really feel -- what it meant to be angry, or upset, or disappointed, or frustrated. Possibly it was the realization that hey, the world doesn't actually revolve around me, grrr, but maybe if I forcefully take charge they'll still listen to what I have to say? I had no idea how to handle these things yet because they had never been such an intense experience before.
What I would have loved at the time would be for my parents to say, lovingly and with compassion, "Hey, I know it's hard when you feel angry. I still love you. Do you want a [comforting object/food] or to just sit by yourself for bit?" That would put a name on this bewildering new feeling, remind Kid Nom that you still love her, and teach her some coping strategies too. It's the "I still love you" that's key, though, in my mind.
posted by danceswithlight at 1:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Both of my kids went through stages like this. You have to think of yourself as a benign dictator, and repetition, repetition, repetition is the way to manage it.
After 2-3 weeks of this type of behavior, you might suddenly come upon them telling their toys or siblings "no hitting!" or "inside voices, shhh" and then you will know they are passing through this particular phase.
At this age, they are sort of out of the baby stage, but not quite. Regressing to toddler behavior is normal, especially if there is a younger sibling involved. After all, what works for the younger sibling gets them more attention. Keep the talks short and sweet: it hurts Sibling when you hit. We need to get dressed so we can start our day. When it doesn't count, such as in play, say, "okay, what do you want to do?" Then sit and wait quietly, barring her hurting you or sibling (sometimes just ignoring it and waiting for them to get ahold of their emotions works). It's all about attaining an appearance of nonchalance, okay, not this, you tell me then, and allowing choices. Red shirt or blue shirt? Gingersnaps or graham crackers? And rules like, dressing before breakfast (however you do it in your household), just stick to the simple rules and allow for choices within those rules.
My son did stuff like yell and throw down the cards if he lost at Go Fish, refuse to hold my hand in a parking lot, demanding to watch a long movie just before bedtime, etc. Oh, and banging on the keyboard when I was teaching him simple computer games (like Reader Rabbit, so I stopped for a while and we went back to it after he learned no hitting the keyboard). Must wake up and jump on the bed at 11:00 at night. It's hard, and it's really frustrating at times, especially when you are tired yourself. But that's how little kids are.
My daughter really did the dressing thing. Either not getting dressed, or demanding to wear clothes that didn't match, a t-shirt in winter, etc. Dawdling, arguing, one time she stuffed an entire box of Kleenex down the toilet, causing it to overflow and leak into the apartment downstairs, this was in the space of 5 minutes.
Unless it goes on for months at a time, then yes, it's just a phase. One thing that my kids really loved was me making up stories at bedtime, I called them "Close Your Eyes" stories, and would talk about bunnies and trees and flowers and puffy clouds, so that was a motivator for them (if you get into your jammies, I will tell you a Close Your Eyes story).
Raising kids is a very fluid experience, it goes back and forth like ocean waves. My kids both hated high school with a passion, were rebellious, and now both are going to college, later than most kids, but they are doing it (yay!) and the older sibling has encouraged the younger to seek out education so she is imitating me, even at this stage in her life, whereas I could tell him to go to school until I am blue in the face, he is now enrolled in school and following her example. So what you are doing now really does pass on throughout the years, and you have to think of it in terms of years, not days or weeks.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:41 PM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
After 2-3 weeks of this type of behavior, you might suddenly come upon them telling their toys or siblings "no hitting!" or "inside voices, shhh" and then you will know they are passing through this particular phase.
At this age, they are sort of out of the baby stage, but not quite. Regressing to toddler behavior is normal, especially if there is a younger sibling involved. After all, what works for the younger sibling gets them more attention. Keep the talks short and sweet: it hurts Sibling when you hit. We need to get dressed so we can start our day. When it doesn't count, such as in play, say, "okay, what do you want to do?" Then sit and wait quietly, barring her hurting you or sibling (sometimes just ignoring it and waiting for them to get ahold of their emotions works). It's all about attaining an appearance of nonchalance, okay, not this, you tell me then, and allowing choices. Red shirt or blue shirt? Gingersnaps or graham crackers? And rules like, dressing before breakfast (however you do it in your household), just stick to the simple rules and allow for choices within those rules.
My son did stuff like yell and throw down the cards if he lost at Go Fish, refuse to hold my hand in a parking lot, demanding to watch a long movie just before bedtime, etc. Oh, and banging on the keyboard when I was teaching him simple computer games (like Reader Rabbit, so I stopped for a while and we went back to it after he learned no hitting the keyboard). Must wake up and jump on the bed at 11:00 at night. It's hard, and it's really frustrating at times, especially when you are tired yourself. But that's how little kids are.
My daughter really did the dressing thing. Either not getting dressed, or demanding to wear clothes that didn't match, a t-shirt in winter, etc. Dawdling, arguing, one time she stuffed an entire box of Kleenex down the toilet, causing it to overflow and leak into the apartment downstairs, this was in the space of 5 minutes.
Unless it goes on for months at a time, then yes, it's just a phase. One thing that my kids really loved was me making up stories at bedtime, I called them "Close Your Eyes" stories, and would talk about bunnies and trees and flowers and puffy clouds, so that was a motivator for them (if you get into your jammies, I will tell you a Close Your Eyes story).
Raising kids is a very fluid experience, it goes back and forth like ocean waves. My kids both hated high school with a passion, were rebellious, and now both are going to college, later than most kids, but they are doing it (yay!) and the older sibling has encouraged the younger to seek out education so she is imitating me, even at this stage in her life, whereas I could tell him to go to school until I am blue in the face, he is now enrolled in school and following her example. So what you are doing now really does pass on throughout the years, and you have to think of it in terms of years, not days or weeks.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:41 PM on February 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Four/five is when kids start getting ideas about right and wrong, and they LOVE rules, especially when they make them. They're trying to bring order to the chaos that is the life of a kid. If there's a younger sibling, one who might be hitting annoying stages...like the terrible-twos, all the more reason to impose some order.
The most important thing about this is to never give in. It sucks the haunchiest-haunch, but MAN, one good stand will make an amazing impression.
For example:
For the lolly-gagging about the house nonsense. Prepare in advance. Park an very generic outfit at school for her, and have her coat in the car. If she's not ready to go when the timer dings, you'll pick her up and take her as-is. No shit. She can be naked and barefoot under that coat. Deposit her in the classroom, and at some point have the teacher say, "Let me see, I may have something you could wear for today." (I acknowledge that some institutions may frown upon this, but it's more of a strategy, if you're squiggy about trying it with school, do it with going to grandma's or some other place.)
But yes, this is perfectly normal.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:42 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
The most important thing about this is to never give in. It sucks the haunchiest-haunch, but MAN, one good stand will make an amazing impression.
For example:
For the lolly-gagging about the house nonsense. Prepare in advance. Park an very generic outfit at school for her, and have her coat in the car. If she's not ready to go when the timer dings, you'll pick her up and take her as-is. No shit. She can be naked and barefoot under that coat. Deposit her in the classroom, and at some point have the teacher say, "Let me see, I may have something you could wear for today." (I acknowledge that some institutions may frown upon this, but it's more of a strategy, if you're squiggy about trying it with school, do it with going to grandma's or some other place.)
But yes, this is perfectly normal.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:42 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Kids test, test, test. I think she is testing what she can get away with. Three and 4 is when you give them a pass. I think she just needs a little reeling in and you will see less of it.
posted by ReluctantViking at 1:46 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by ReluctantViking at 1:46 PM on February 27, 2016
Would it be helpful to set up a hidden video when the whole family is together doing something normal, say having dinner and then cleaning up afterward. A situation where she has various challenges as well as opportunities to be independent. Record for something like an hour. Notice your own behaviors and reactions. Maybe she is mimicking you on some level and you don't realize it? I'm not saying this to blame you but I for one don't realize how I sound most of the time. This may provide you both a why and a solution.
posted by waving at 1:48 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 1:48 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
You said she's had sleep disturbances and a recent bout of illness. Sounds to me like very plausible reasons for a temporary change in her behaviour.
Another thought: has she been getting a regular daily vitamin D dose? This is the time of year when people on the Northern hemisphere easily suffer from deficiency, having spent all their reserves during the dark months. Grown ups get gloomy, kids often get cranky or whiny. You could try supplementing 5-10mcg (200-400 IU) a day, at least until the spring.
posted by sively at 2:04 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Another thought: has she been getting a regular daily vitamin D dose? This is the time of year when people on the Northern hemisphere easily suffer from deficiency, having spent all their reserves during the dark months. Grown ups get gloomy, kids often get cranky or whiny. You could try supplementing 5-10mcg (200-400 IU) a day, at least until the spring.
posted by sively at 2:04 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
How long has this been going on? Are there times when she's significantly more reasonable?
If it's been less than a few months, or if it waxes and wanes, I'd definitely call it a "kids are basically sociopaths but it gets better" phase kind of thing. A lot of kids are just incredibly unreasonable at various points in the course of their development, and in my experience the smart, strong-willed ones are the most likely to pull out their inner Stalin. The important thing is to act like things are basically normal (don't change routines, etc.) even though the situation seems to be calling for some kind of antipsychotic medication.
posted by SMPA at 2:08 PM on February 27, 2016
If it's been less than a few months, or if it waxes and wanes, I'd definitely call it a "kids are basically sociopaths but it gets better" phase kind of thing. A lot of kids are just incredibly unreasonable at various points in the course of their development, and in my experience the smart, strong-willed ones are the most likely to pull out their inner Stalin. The important thing is to act like things are basically normal (don't change routines, etc.) even though the situation seems to be calling for some kind of antipsychotic medication.
posted by SMPA at 2:08 PM on February 27, 2016
Ruthless Bunny, my daughter once refused to dress in the morning, and I just took her down into the cargo-bike in her PJs. In the snow. She was dressed in multiple layers within the minute and never again attempted dressing in the morning discussions.
I guess what I was trying to say above with the "pick your battles" is: remember you are the adult. Don't get into fights on a four-year-old's premises. You don't have to defend that hitting is wrong or explain why. It's just a rule, and there are no exceptions ever.
However, if a four-year-old really prefers the dirty blue sweater from yesterday instead of the clean pink one from the drawer, don't let that escalate. Let her be dirty one day and then when she is sleeping, move the dirty one into the washing machine where it gets wet and can't be worn. Anyone who judges you for that is mean and you don't need to please them.
I really liked the child's perspective that danceswithlight brought in, and it is something I've thought a lot about. I do something the kids call my angry voice, which is something they don't want to hear. I use it very, very rarely, (once a year, maybe), but I am not afraid to use it in a public place. When I have used it for good reasons, there is always a time-out. But then at bed-times I always make sure to make it extra-extra-clear that even if there were reasons for bringing out the angry voice, the kids are still the light of my life and the sweetest loveliest kids ever. And kisses and hugs. I try to explain that it is not about them, but about their actions.
(Bio mother of two wonderful adults, and foster-mother of two wonderful kids currently five and nine)
posted by mumimor at 2:12 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess what I was trying to say above with the "pick your battles" is: remember you are the adult. Don't get into fights on a four-year-old's premises. You don't have to defend that hitting is wrong or explain why. It's just a rule, and there are no exceptions ever.
However, if a four-year-old really prefers the dirty blue sweater from yesterday instead of the clean pink one from the drawer, don't let that escalate. Let her be dirty one day and then when she is sleeping, move the dirty one into the washing machine where it gets wet and can't be worn. Anyone who judges you for that is mean and you don't need to please them.
I really liked the child's perspective that danceswithlight brought in, and it is something I've thought a lot about. I do something the kids call my angry voice, which is something they don't want to hear. I use it very, very rarely, (once a year, maybe), but I am not afraid to use it in a public place. When I have used it for good reasons, there is always a time-out. But then at bed-times I always make sure to make it extra-extra-clear that even if there were reasons for bringing out the angry voice, the kids are still the light of my life and the sweetest loveliest kids ever. And kisses and hugs. I try to explain that it is not about them, but about their actions.
(Bio mother of two wonderful adults, and foster-mother of two wonderful kids currently five and nine)
posted by mumimor at 2:12 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: It's been going on for a week or so.
I'd like to add that my comment on choosing the not allowed option referred to a time where she wanted leftover dinner for breakfast, or something equally weird, and as an experiment I okayed it. Then she was disappointed in the okay and changed her mind. Which is when I realized she didn't really mean it, she was just picking a fight!
So yeah, we try to be consistent and it looks like we'll be tightening up. For a long while she was so interested in being a responsible big girl, and so reasonable, that we let her have some leeway ("I see finishing this puzzle is very important to you. If you hurry up and get dressed straight after, I'll let you finish it first." That sort of stuff used to work, but now it just ends up in chaos.)
posted by Omnomnom at 2:25 PM on February 27, 2016
I'd like to add that my comment on choosing the not allowed option referred to a time where she wanted leftover dinner for breakfast, or something equally weird, and as an experiment I okayed it. Then she was disappointed in the okay and changed her mind. Which is when I realized she didn't really mean it, she was just picking a fight!
So yeah, we try to be consistent and it looks like we'll be tightening up. For a long while she was so interested in being a responsible big girl, and so reasonable, that we let her have some leeway ("I see finishing this puzzle is very important to you. If you hurry up and get dressed straight after, I'll let you finish it first." That sort of stuff used to work, but now it just ends up in chaos.)
posted by Omnomnom at 2:25 PM on February 27, 2016
she was just picking a fight!
My oldest son spent a lot of years picking fights with me. About a year after he was finally identified as gifted and with spending time on some parent support lists, I finally realized he did this when bored. Part of the solution was to find a means to get his intellectual needs better met. Part of it was to respond to this type of behavior as a cue that he was bored and to look for a means to redirect his attention away from being a huge jackass to his own mother for shits and grins.
I will reiterate what I said above: Please consider joining a gifted parents discussion group.
Sorry you are going through this.
posted by Michele in California at 2:30 PM on February 27, 2016
My oldest son spent a lot of years picking fights with me. About a year after he was finally identified as gifted and with spending time on some parent support lists, I finally realized he did this when bored. Part of the solution was to find a means to get his intellectual needs better met. Part of it was to respond to this type of behavior as a cue that he was bored and to look for a means to redirect his attention away from being a huge jackass to his own mother for shits and grins.
I will reiterate what I said above: Please consider joining a gifted parents discussion group.
Sorry you are going through this.
posted by Michele in California at 2:30 PM on February 27, 2016
"She did have a pretty bad bronchitis two weeks ago. Now Little Sis is keeping us up during the night by teething.
Physically, Kid Nom seems pretty normal."
Antibiotics can mess up your gut pretty badly. She could feel icky and not know how to express it. And the lack of sleep isn't going to help anything.
Can you pitch a tent in your living room and let her camp out there on nights where her sister isn't letting her sleep? This might be a win that she really needs. You could make it a treat- tell her that if she eats the healthy yogurt (not the sugar crap), then she can be a camper.
posted by myselfasme at 2:41 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Physically, Kid Nom seems pretty normal."
Antibiotics can mess up your gut pretty badly. She could feel icky and not know how to express it. And the lack of sleep isn't going to help anything.
Can you pitch a tent in your living room and let her camp out there on nights where her sister isn't letting her sleep? This might be a win that she really needs. You could make it a treat- tell her that if she eats the healthy yogurt (not the sugar crap), then she can be a camper.
posted by myselfasme at 2:41 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is she not getting enough sleep? Around then ours started staying up real late and turning into a nightmare - we got more organised about light off time (optional: a late night one time a week) and things improved fairly quickly.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:04 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by Sebmojo at 3:04 PM on February 27, 2016
The best resource for the "is this behavior normal" question of childhood is the "Your X Year Old" series by Louise Bates Ames. The advice and some of the assumptions of the books are dated, but the observations of child behavior are amazing. To the point where so many traits that I thought were my child being a special snowflake were merely hallmarks of his age. These days I read them about 6 months ahead to know what's coming. (And yes, age 5 is "sunny and serene," according to this series, at least until the mid-point disequilibrium sets in.)
posted by xo at 4:59 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by xo at 4:59 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
i recently considered writing a similar question regarding my 4.25-year old. Lots of new outbursts, shouted NOs, meltdowns, fights that he was picking. I thought it was to do with his three month old baby brother, and following Dr. Laura, I upped the "preventative maintenance" till I was blue in the face -- lots of attention, "special time" when he had my undivided and could choose what to do (usually roughhousing and hugs)' and "scheduled meltdowns", where I'd see that he needed to cry and I'd help him get there by setting and maintaining a gentle limit. All this helped, but didn't fix the problem.
What it -did- do, though, was build enough safety between us that he started telling me more about his days at preschool. Turns out there was an issue with some of the other kids that was worrying him. I had a meeting with his teacher, they made a change at school, and it feels like a weight has been lifted from my son's shoulders.
He's still four, and watch me regret daring to say (online, natch) that the problem is resolved, but: sometimes there truly is something going on. Using this time to just reinforce boundaries may close you off from what that is.
posted by wyzewoman at 5:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
What it -did- do, though, was build enough safety between us that he started telling me more about his days at preschool. Turns out there was an issue with some of the other kids that was worrying him. I had a meeting with his teacher, they made a change at school, and it feels like a weight has been lifted from my son's shoulders.
He's still four, and watch me regret daring to say (online, natch) that the problem is resolved, but: sometimes there truly is something going on. Using this time to just reinforce boundaries may close you off from what that is.
posted by wyzewoman at 5:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do be mindful that you're not giving her more attention when she's a dick than when she's not. I've seen well meaning parents inadvertently really reinforce dickish behavior in their kids, just by the attention - even if it's negative attention - that they give them when they misbehave. Discipline should be consistent, curt and NOT ego-stroking by making the kid the center of attention.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:59 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:59 PM on February 27, 2016
Everybody told me about the "terrible twos" (which didn't exist for us either), a few people warned us about 3.5 (which was pretty bad), but NOBODY said anything about four and it was a complete and utter slog. Once he hit five, everything sort of evened out and he became more reasonable and I enjoyed his company again.
I turned to Aha Parenting for help and it did improve things some. I think a large part of our problem was that we had a brand new baby in the house and he didn't get as much time with me as he used to but couldn't articulate that was his problem. Specifically creating time for him without the baby definitely helped.
Note: My mother-in-law refers to this age as the "Fucking Fours," and she successfully raised four kids so I feel like she knows what she's talking about.
posted by meggan at 6:08 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I turned to Aha Parenting for help and it did improve things some. I think a large part of our problem was that we had a brand new baby in the house and he didn't get as much time with me as he used to but couldn't articulate that was his problem. Specifically creating time for him without the baby definitely helped.
Note: My mother-in-law refers to this age as the "Fucking Fours," and she successfully raised four kids so I feel like she knows what she's talking about.
posted by meggan at 6:08 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our kid is five and we still have a 1-in-6 chance of utter meltdown when we ask him to wash his hands before dinner.
Late four was a particular form of hell, especially for mom, as he insisted on correcting her on every. detail. she. spoke. even if he had no idea what he was talking about.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:42 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Late four was a particular form of hell, especially for mom, as he insisted on correcting her on every. detail. she. spoke. even if he had no idea what he was talking about.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:42 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
FWIW the #1 cause of a child's awful, obstinate, combative behavior in our house is sleep deprivation. The day after one of those sleepovers where they're up past midnight are a nightmare. Early bedtime, naps if you can get 'em, late wakeups, do anything you can to get more sleep into the kid and there is a very decent chance that this will improve dramatically and instantly.
posted by Andrhia at 7:45 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by Andrhia at 7:45 PM on February 27, 2016
Just about every shit thing mentioned above that a four-year-old has done has happened in this house over the past few months. She's a few months into five and knock wood, seems to be emerging from her total jerk phase. It's been rough.
Stay the course. Be firm. Create boundaries. Reward good behavior. You and your spouse should be extra careful about supporting each other. Hopefully this too shall pass.
posted by amanda at 9:03 PM on February 27, 2016
Stay the course. Be firm. Create boundaries. Reward good behavior. You and your spouse should be extra careful about supporting each other. Hopefully this too shall pass.
posted by amanda at 9:03 PM on February 27, 2016
This all sounds normal. I don't think you broke your kid.
One thing I think I may have forgotten too often at that age is that four is not all that far removed from infancy, and the same sorts of mental checklists are still often needed: are we tired? Hungry? In need of a cuddle? Overstimulated? Understimulated? Etc? Adults still need to mind that stuff, so it's no surprise that a preschooler might not always be the best judge of when one is "hangry" or overtired or whatever.
(Enthusiastic +1 on the ahaparenting.com recommendations)
Give both of you some extra leeway, too. It will not scuttle otherwise competent parenting to occasionally throw up your hands and say "This is exceeding both of our resources to cope. We are spending the rest of the day watching cartoons, eating Doritos, and otherwise chilling. Tomorrow it will be business as usual. But right now...would you like chips or ice cream for dinner?" This is another thing adults do, and it shouldn't surprise us when kids need it, too, the 4yo equivalent of "I'm having a Netflix binge and a bottle of wine." I was/am a solo parent and would have gone utterly mad if not for those occasional "to hell with it" nights. People will try to tell you that this is "giving in" and they will come to expect it all the time, but notice that kids can experience holidays without expecting that a stocking of toys, chocolate bunny, pile of balloons, etc, should be a regular occurrence.
posted by kmennie at 9:37 AM on February 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
One thing I think I may have forgotten too often at that age is that four is not all that far removed from infancy, and the same sorts of mental checklists are still often needed: are we tired? Hungry? In need of a cuddle? Overstimulated? Understimulated? Etc? Adults still need to mind that stuff, so it's no surprise that a preschooler might not always be the best judge of when one is "hangry" or overtired or whatever.
(Enthusiastic +1 on the ahaparenting.com recommendations)
Give both of you some extra leeway, too. It will not scuttle otherwise competent parenting to occasionally throw up your hands and say "This is exceeding both of our resources to cope. We are spending the rest of the day watching cartoons, eating Doritos, and otherwise chilling. Tomorrow it will be business as usual. But right now...would you like chips or ice cream for dinner?" This is another thing adults do, and it shouldn't surprise us when kids need it, too, the 4yo equivalent of "I'm having a Netflix binge and a bottle of wine." I was/am a solo parent and would have gone utterly mad if not for those occasional "to hell with it" nights. People will try to tell you that this is "giving in" and they will come to expect it all the time, but notice that kids can experience holidays without expecting that a stocking of toys, chocolate bunny, pile of balloons, etc, should be a regular occurrence.
posted by kmennie at 9:37 AM on February 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by parmanparman at 11:34 AM on February 27, 2016