TERF conversion.
December 18, 2015 1:22 AM Subscribe
So we had our second big argument. This one ended with her tears and a walkout, and my continued confusion. At issue seems to be: she might be a TERF. I never used that word, but I kept asking her to clarify what she was saying, because all I kept hearing was that hormones are bad, and therefor transitioning is bad.
She doesn't take birth control, because she's anti hormone. She's the child of religious hippies, and from my understanding, her family has terrible conflict management/resolution skills. She doesn't seem to have the best conflict management, and she has (twice now) said fucked up things in the heat of an argument.
But I think she has a good heart, and I think she's just stubborn. But this doesn't change the fact that she has discredited my friends experiences, and that she seems to think she has a higher moral authority on this than another person.
She's feminist, but not well educated on it, and I don't think she's ever heard of the term TERF. I don't mean to use that word as a way to tar her, but - for a variety of reasons including that my good friend is trans - TERFs freak me out.
What do I do? We are six months in. I mean, can she change? Should I try? If not, this is dtmfa territory for me. I just don't know whether to try and weather this storm, or just bail immediately.
She doesn't take birth control, because she's anti hormone. She's the child of religious hippies, and from my understanding, her family has terrible conflict management/resolution skills. She doesn't seem to have the best conflict management, and she has (twice now) said fucked up things in the heat of an argument.
But I think she has a good heart, and I think she's just stubborn. But this doesn't change the fact that she has discredited my friends experiences, and that she seems to think she has a higher moral authority on this than another person.
She's feminist, but not well educated on it, and I don't think she's ever heard of the term TERF. I don't mean to use that word as a way to tar her, but - for a variety of reasons including that my good friend is trans - TERFs freak me out.
What do I do? We are six months in. I mean, can she change? Should I try? If not, this is dtmfa territory for me. I just don't know whether to try and weather this storm, or just bail immediately.
If she's against taking synthetic hormones in general, then I think you're going to have a really hard time convincing her that trans people taking hormones is an okay thing to do.
posted by colfax at 2:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by colfax at 2:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
TERF might not be the most accurate construct to apply here unless she's otherwise transphobic in her behavior. What she sounds like, given what you've said here ("child of religious hippies"), is someone who is suspicious of conventional medical treatments, has certain non-mainstream beliefs about hormones, and is not well-educated about trans people's health. Is this something she's only shared with you personally, or has it come out in how she treats your trans friends? If the latter, you've got a much bigger issue.
I'd be curious if she's mistrustful of medicine more generally (does she have a problem with antidepressants? chemotherapy?), anything to do with hormones (you mentioned birth control; is she similarly anti-HRT for older women and fertility treatments?), or if this issue is entirely specific to trans people. Any of this might pose a major issue for you but they would need to be addressed differently.
Whatever it is, yes, this could be something that changes with education IF she's open to that. You're going to need to have another conversation about this in which you lay it out that she is entitled to her own feelings about what medicines she would take, but discrediting your trans friends' experiences is not something you can accept in a relationship-- that they will notice this when they interact with her, and it harms them-- and go from there.
posted by thetortoise at 2:15 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
I'd be curious if she's mistrustful of medicine more generally (does she have a problem with antidepressants? chemotherapy?), anything to do with hormones (you mentioned birth control; is she similarly anti-HRT for older women and fertility treatments?), or if this issue is entirely specific to trans people. Any of this might pose a major issue for you but they would need to be addressed differently.
Whatever it is, yes, this could be something that changes with education IF she's open to that. You're going to need to have another conversation about this in which you lay it out that she is entitled to her own feelings about what medicines she would take, but discrediting your trans friends' experiences is not something you can accept in a relationship-- that they will notice this when they interact with her, and it harms them-- and go from there.
posted by thetortoise at 2:15 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
I can't be the first person who had to immediately look up TERF. "Trans-exclusionary radical feminists are a subgroup of radical feminism characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny and hostility to the third wave of feminism. They believe that the only real women are those born with a vagina and XX chromosomes.
The term "TERF" is not used by those in the group, who consider it a damnable slur, and think of themselves as perfectly reasonable radical feminists."
6 months in? The red flag for me is "she has discredited my friends experiences, and that she seems to think she has a higher moral authority on this than another person. " You're describing someone who's rigid and thinks their moral sense is better than your friends' and by extension, your moral sense.
This could be about trans issues or politics or gender issues or what to eat for dinner or where to shop this weekend. And she disses your friends? That's not cool.
Seems like you two are not a good fit. I'd DTMFA.
posted by kinetic at 3:00 AM on December 18, 2015 [26 favorites]
The term "TERF" is not used by those in the group, who consider it a damnable slur, and think of themselves as perfectly reasonable radical feminists."
6 months in? The red flag for me is "she has discredited my friends experiences, and that she seems to think she has a higher moral authority on this than another person. " You're describing someone who's rigid and thinks their moral sense is better than your friends' and by extension, your moral sense.
This could be about trans issues or politics or gender issues or what to eat for dinner or where to shop this weekend. And she disses your friends? That's not cool.
Seems like you two are not a good fit. I'd DTMFA.
posted by kinetic at 3:00 AM on December 18, 2015 [26 favorites]
I don't hear transphobia so much as her mind short circuiting over the hippie-purity ideology that hormones/vaccines/big pharma are bad, guard your precious bodily fluids at all costs etc etc. So she sees your friend as tinkering with the "natural purity of the body" and it's challenging her (her parents'?) beliefs. Hippies really make what you ingest in the body into a moral issue. In her mind all interference is a moral downfall. One side (hers) is always right and she won't see a grey area. Hence your friend has to be "wrong." It's not a trans thing per se.
Jayzus hippies can be so anal retentive, can't they?
She might be able to see reason on this specific topic but her general unquestioned hippie indoctrination and righteousness would make me think twice.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Jayzus hippies can be so anal retentive, can't they?
She might be able to see reason on this specific topic but her general unquestioned hippie indoctrination and righteousness would make me think twice.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
But this doesn't change the fact that she has discredited my friends experiences, and that she seems to think she has a higher moral authority on this than another person.
Toxic.
posted by oceanjesse at 3:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Toxic.
posted by oceanjesse at 3:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I feel I should state: she didn't explicitly diss my friends. In fact, her response was along the lines of "great, I have trans friends too, but that doesn't change that this is bad for bodies, and a stop gap for society to fully accept feminism" which I just really have a hard time with. She made a point about how one of the most famous women of this year was formerly a man.
I mean, I don't even care if that's true. I just care that people are respected. I feel like that isn't a high bar to set; and she has otherwise seemed like a very thoughtful, respectful, and emotionally generous person.
I think, with this ask question, I'd love to see some links, books, or stories I can share with her, and move forward based on her response to that. I'm on alert now, but I don't feel like this is quite into dtmfa zones yet - it's just feels very very close.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 4:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, I don't even care if that's true. I just care that people are respected. I feel like that isn't a high bar to set; and she has otherwise seemed like a very thoughtful, respectful, and emotionally generous person.
I think, with this ask question, I'd love to see some links, books, or stories I can share with her, and move forward based on her response to that. I'm on alert now, but I don't feel like this is quite into dtmfa zones yet - it's just feels very very close.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 4:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm confused-- is it this set of convictions that you regard as in itself being a dealbreaker for you (in which case, why not just ask her outright what she believes about this, and make your choices based on what she tells you?). Or is it that your girlfriend somehow has a mean-spirited way of applying/ expressing her beliefs about the body/ hormones? Could you clarify what "fucked-up" things she actually said?
posted by Bardolph at 4:08 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bardolph at 4:08 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
This question super is weird to me. When you talk about her, you don't sound like you're talking about someone you love. You sound like she's, I dunno, a dog walker who doesn't interact with your dog that well but has a lot of availability and good rates you want to figure out whether to fire her.
In any case, you're not likely to change her and for the sake of both of your sanity you should break up.
posted by phoenixy at 4:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
In any case, you're not likely to change her and for the sake of both of your sanity you should break up.
posted by phoenixy at 4:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
For me, TERF = immediate dealbreaker, including friendships and other less fraught levels of relationship. However! That is within the context of the person understanding what that means, being educated enough and having known trans people in their lives enough to vocalize their exclusionary opinions and reinforce that that's really what they think.
Because as much as folks in and right next to trans communities are sick and fucking tired of going over 101 level stuff like this, it is quite often a pretty big shift in perspective for fully cis people. We've all had times when we've said stupid shit because we're not in possession of all the facts.
So if you can express to her how completely upsetting her opinions are to you, and she becomes willing to either accept your perspective without question and keep her thoughts to herself (much like being friends with someone whose religion is incompatible with your lifestyle - possible, but there are a lot of things you just don't talk about and respect your differences on) or says she wants to really understand where you're coming from and that this isn't a thing that is set in stone for her, then your time hasn't been wasted and you can go from there about if it is worth continuing to be with her.
Upon preview it seems the issue isn't about her respecting the identity of trans people but more about her disrespecting the difficult choices many trans people have to make to be healthy. For me, I held this kind of opinion for a personally shameful length of time, until I really came to terms with my own mental health problems and could extrapolate that onto others. It was kinda like "well I can personally disconnect gender from physical appearance so wtf is their problem? We should fight to destroy the binary, not reinforce it!" But YEEESH that is deeply disgusting and disrespectful when applied to actual life, including my own, and served to hurt my own feminism for a long time.
My issues with my gender are not too intermingled with my issues with my mental health, but knowing people with the same mental illnesses who were so much better from regular pharmaceutical maintenance helped me conceptualize my own difficulties as something I had the power to change - I didn't just have to deal with the brain I was dealt as-is. And from there it was an extremely short leap to trans people being entirely justified to utilize whatever currently exists to help them have the bodies they need instead of what they have. Maybe it is a big and scary risk, maybe it is as simple as the equivalent of taking a daily vitamin, but it is worth it to the person and everyone needs to respect their choice and bodily sovereignty.
So perhaps your girlfriend just hasn't had that paradigm shift yet. Her line about Caitlyn Jenner is a huge red flag - if she can accept that she has always been a woman, then there is some space there I think for her to change her opinion. If she doubles down insisting that because Caitlyn used to go by Bruce, this just proves that society isn't ready to fully accept women and points to how far we have to go and maybe trans people are just trying to fit themselves into a broken system and shouldn't even try (or... Something...) then ugh. Is it really worth it to you to be the person to educate her?
posted by Mizu at 4:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Because as much as folks in and right next to trans communities are sick and fucking tired of going over 101 level stuff like this, it is quite often a pretty big shift in perspective for fully cis people. We've all had times when we've said stupid shit because we're not in possession of all the facts.
So if you can express to her how completely upsetting her opinions are to you, and she becomes willing to either accept your perspective without question and keep her thoughts to herself (much like being friends with someone whose religion is incompatible with your lifestyle - possible, but there are a lot of things you just don't talk about and respect your differences on) or says she wants to really understand where you're coming from and that this isn't a thing that is set in stone for her, then your time hasn't been wasted and you can go from there about if it is worth continuing to be with her.
Upon preview it seems the issue isn't about her respecting the identity of trans people but more about her disrespecting the difficult choices many trans people have to make to be healthy. For me, I held this kind of opinion for a personally shameful length of time, until I really came to terms with my own mental health problems and could extrapolate that onto others. It was kinda like "well I can personally disconnect gender from physical appearance so wtf is their problem? We should fight to destroy the binary, not reinforce it!" But YEEESH that is deeply disgusting and disrespectful when applied to actual life, including my own, and served to hurt my own feminism for a long time.
My issues with my gender are not too intermingled with my issues with my mental health, but knowing people with the same mental illnesses who were so much better from regular pharmaceutical maintenance helped me conceptualize my own difficulties as something I had the power to change - I didn't just have to deal with the brain I was dealt as-is. And from there it was an extremely short leap to trans people being entirely justified to utilize whatever currently exists to help them have the bodies they need instead of what they have. Maybe it is a big and scary risk, maybe it is as simple as the equivalent of taking a daily vitamin, but it is worth it to the person and everyone needs to respect their choice and bodily sovereignty.
So perhaps your girlfriend just hasn't had that paradigm shift yet. Her line about Caitlyn Jenner is a huge red flag - if she can accept that she has always been a woman, then there is some space there I think for her to change her opinion. If she doubles down insisting that because Caitlyn used to go by Bruce, this just proves that society isn't ready to fully accept women and points to how far we have to go and maybe trans people are just trying to fit themselves into a broken system and shouldn't even try (or... Something...) then ugh. Is it really worth it to you to be the person to educate her?
posted by Mizu at 4:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Don't use that term to tar anyone, just listen to what they have to say and compare notes.
And yes, this girl doesn't seem to be for you, and if only because you sound not so very much into her.
posted by Namlit at 4:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
And yes, this girl doesn't seem to be for you, and if only because you sound not so very much into her.
posted by Namlit at 4:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
If all you care about is that people are respected, why don't you respect this woman's point of view?
You're asking her to accept some truths that are at serious odds to deeply-held beliefs of her own, whatever those may be. Why can't you do the same?
I'm taking this completely apart from the specifics of the issue because this same conflict could arise about, truly, any of a thousand subjects. Relationships always, always involve having to negotiate different points of view and sometimes they are deeply entrenched and at serious odds.
If it's a deal breaker for you, so be it. But I think you would be well served to meditate some on what it really means to respect people, differences and all. It's what you're preaching but in this example you don't seem to be practicing.
posted by Sublimity at 4:47 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
You're asking her to accept some truths that are at serious odds to deeply-held beliefs of her own, whatever those may be. Why can't you do the same?
I'm taking this completely apart from the specifics of the issue because this same conflict could arise about, truly, any of a thousand subjects. Relationships always, always involve having to negotiate different points of view and sometimes they are deeply entrenched and at serious odds.
If it's a deal breaker for you, so be it. But I think you would be well served to meditate some on what it really means to respect people, differences and all. It's what you're preaching but in this example you don't seem to be practicing.
posted by Sublimity at 4:47 AM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
I couldn't be involved with someone who was anti-science, whether anti-vaccine, a creationist, a global climate change denier, or someone who thought (some) hormonal drugs were evil. She may be a good person in other ways, but her opinion on this is anti-science and it sounds like does not mesh with your world view. In my experience, you can't reason someone out of an opinion they did not reason themselves into.
If you want to try, you could point out that insulin is a hormone. Ask her if it's okay for diabetics to take synthetic insulin. See if she can start from there and reason her way to other hormones being okay.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:57 AM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
If you want to try, you could point out that insulin is a hormone. Ask her if it's okay for diabetics to take synthetic insulin. See if she can start from there and reason her way to other hormones being okay.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:57 AM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
The thing about big-hearted generally good people is that when they do or say something ugly it can be incredibly jarring, more so than if the sentiment came from someone you would consider morally suspect.
Sometimes those views betray a rotten core but sometimes it's an immature perspective that has a chance at changing. That changing perspective may not happen with you in her life though and may take a lot more time. I think it's ok for you to call out the ugly sentiment, genuinely wish her well and walk away. Your sadness will be one of many things that may reach her.
And 6 months in, you now know that she's capable of real ugliness when she feels threatened. What will happen when she escalates and turns that ugliness directly on you? Will you feel safe trusting her with your vulnerabilities or will she use them as weapons against you?
posted by A hidden well at 5:22 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sometimes those views betray a rotten core but sometimes it's an immature perspective that has a chance at changing. That changing perspective may not happen with you in her life though and may take a lot more time. I think it's ok for you to call out the ugly sentiment, genuinely wish her well and walk away. Your sadness will be one of many things that may reach her.
And 6 months in, you now know that she's capable of real ugliness when she feels threatened. What will happen when she escalates and turns that ugliness directly on you? Will you feel safe trusting her with your vulnerabilities or will she use them as weapons against you?
posted by A hidden well at 5:22 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
You asked for books. I've recommended PFLAG Straight for Equality's trans ally materials here before. It's good 101 level stuff that is written in a way to meet people where they are, but still very respectful and informative of trans experiences.
posted by lieber hair at 5:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lieber hair at 5:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you have to accept that this woman deeply believes things that you don't agree with. The next two steps are: break up with her, or stay with her and accept that she believes things that make you uncomfortable and unhappy. In this case, I know what I would do, and it would involve saying, "Sorry, it's been great, but this just isn't working for me anymore."
But trying to force her to "convert" is a crappy idea; I don't care what the topic is.
posted by colfax at 5:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
But trying to force her to "convert" is a crappy idea; I don't care what the topic is.
posted by colfax at 5:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Re the bad for bodies things, this seems like something where you could point out the vast psychological benefits of hormone therapy for many trans people. Hormones make your physical body more in line with your gender identity. This alleviates depression and anxiety for a lot of trans people. This is why many trans people yearn to take hormone therapy. It's really over-simplistic to just say that "hormones are bad for your body". Well, your brain is part of your body, and it seems like the brain can get some major benefits from feeling like your body finally looks like it should.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Wait, I need clarification here.
To me, this has nothing to do about feminism or transphobia. Her issue is "simply" that a person is using hormones for the trans process, and she is just 110% against hormones, period, because it's bad for their bodies.
You two are arguing about completely different things, and THAT is the problem here.
posted by TinWhistle at 6:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
To me, this has nothing to do about feminism or transphobia. Her issue is "simply" that a person is using hormones for the trans process, and she is just 110% against hormones, period, because it's bad for their bodies.
You two are arguing about completely different things, and THAT is the problem here.
posted by TinWhistle at 6:05 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think your GF sounds like a TERF. I think your GF sounds like someone who believes hormones are bad. Unless I have misunderstood you, she doesn't seem to be saying that TG people should be barred from transitioning, just that it is bad for them if they choose to do so.
I wouldn't even try to convince her that hormones are not bad. Instead, I would immediately go to the fundamentals of the issue:
Does she believe that each human should have autonomy over their own body?
No medical decision is without risk. Abortion comes with risk. Tattoos come with risk. Blood transfusions come with risk. If she believes that people should be able to make their own decisions about what risks they are willing to accept, then you sort of don't have a problem.
I would then focus on how you as a couple can get better at conflict resolution -- which, by the way, is very different than you educating her on how to resolve conflict.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:15 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I wouldn't even try to convince her that hormones are not bad. Instead, I would immediately go to the fundamentals of the issue:
Does she believe that each human should have autonomy over their own body?
No medical decision is without risk. Abortion comes with risk. Tattoos come with risk. Blood transfusions come with risk. If she believes that people should be able to make their own decisions about what risks they are willing to accept, then you sort of don't have a problem.
I would then focus on how you as a couple can get better at conflict resolution -- which, by the way, is very different than you educating her on how to resolve conflict.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:15 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I agree with TinWhistle. From both of your comments, it doesn't sound like she has any animosity towards trans people, she doesn't think they're wrong for being trans, she doesn't object to trans women being called women or participating in the world as women. You haven't described anywhere that she is expressing hostility to trans people.
What she has is modern medicine phobia. "Oh, sure, take hormones, but they're bad for you," could just as easily be, "if they really feel they must, they can get their kids vaccinated, but they will be hurting their kids."
You'll be more successful addressing this issue if you identify it properly as a problem with modern medicine and science, and an inability to let other people make their own choices. That makes me more hopeful. For example, I know people whose views on vaccines have matured as they were exposed to the true science behind them.
posted by alms at 6:17 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
What she has is modern medicine phobia. "Oh, sure, take hormones, but they're bad for you," could just as easily be, "if they really feel they must, they can get their kids vaccinated, but they will be hurting their kids."
You'll be more successful addressing this issue if you identify it properly as a problem with modern medicine and science, and an inability to let other people make their own choices. That makes me more hopeful. For example, I know people whose views on vaccines have matured as they were exposed to the true science behind them.
posted by alms at 6:17 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
She's feminist, but not well educated on it, and I don't think she's ever heard of the term TERF.
You, who seem to be a man, are looking to educate your girlfriend on being a feminist.... What it comes down to is you seem to be vacillating between "she's a good person" and "she's only a good person if she believes the same things I believe." But, it doesn't sound like you respect her all that much so...
posted by ennui.bz at 6:20 AM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
You, who seem to be a man, are looking to educate your girlfriend on being a feminist.... What it comes down to is you seem to be vacillating between "she's a good person" and "she's only a good person if she believes the same things I believe." But, it doesn't sound like you respect her all that much so...
posted by ennui.bz at 6:20 AM on December 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
Open heart surgery is bad for the body. On the other hand, the consequences of not having open heart surgery are even worse. Nevertheless, the prospect of cutting down the middle of my sternum and cranking open my rib cage is pretty freaky.
You seem pretty sensitive and empathetic. Most people are not to the degree you are, and being trans is simply an abstraction for most people. They wouldn't take hormones or have elective surgery, because the idea seems damaging, so it is hard for them to understand why anyone else would. Your girlfriend especially seems to have a problem with certain kinds of long term elective hormone therapies.
That's not even close to TERF which is a subset of radical feminism. That doesn't seem to describe your girlfriend.
posted by deanc at 6:21 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
You seem pretty sensitive and empathetic. Most people are not to the degree you are, and being trans is simply an abstraction for most people. They wouldn't take hormones or have elective surgery, because the idea seems damaging, so it is hard for them to understand why anyone else would. Your girlfriend especially seems to have a problem with certain kinds of long term elective hormone therapies.
That's not even close to TERF which is a subset of radical feminism. That doesn't seem to describe your girlfriend.
posted by deanc at 6:21 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Plenty of TERFs use "hormones are bad for you" as a cover for their transphobia. The line about "a step back for feminism" is VERY textbook TERF. Just because someone doesn't say "Trans people must die" doesn't mean they aren't transphobic.
She doesn't want to take hormones? Ok fine whatever, it's her body. But what other people do with their bodies is none of her beeswax. It's not some kind of political statement that's holding back feminism or whatever.
DTMFA, because this will just crop up in other ways that'll eventually be harmful.
posted by divabat at 6:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
She doesn't want to take hormones? Ok fine whatever, it's her body. But what other people do with their bodies is none of her beeswax. It's not some kind of political statement that's holding back feminism or whatever.
DTMFA, because this will just crop up in other ways that'll eventually be harmful.
posted by divabat at 6:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
People who are saying "what's the big deal? why don't you respect her beliefs?" do not understand how toxic this kind of transphobia is. Would you keep dating someone who thought that another minority group was inherently bad/evil/misbegotten? No, of course not.
If my partner said something like this, I'd say, hey, that's offensive, and here's why. If they didn't change their opinion, it would have to mean the end of our relationship, because they would have revealed something ugly about themselves. You don't seem that happy with her otherwise, so why waste your time?
posted by chaiminda at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
If my partner said something like this, I'd say, hey, that's offensive, and here's why. If they didn't change their opinion, it would have to mean the end of our relationship, because they would have revealed something ugly about themselves. You don't seem that happy with her otherwise, so why waste your time?
posted by chaiminda at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Would you keep dating someone who thought that another minority group was inherently bad/evil/misbegotten?
But that isn't what the OP has reported her as saying: "all I kept hearing was that hormones are bad, and therefor transitioning is bad."
posted by DarlingBri at 6:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
But that isn't what the OP has reported her as saying: "all I kept hearing was that hormones are bad, and therefor transitioning is bad."
posted by DarlingBri at 6:46 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think people are missing your follow-up, which shows her objections are not just about hormones.
Is she logical enough that pointing out the logic flaw will help? If she doesn't believe in gender essentialism, then it makes no sense to say that trans people are being gender essentialists, since they're disproving the idea that all people born with penises are one way and all people born with vaginas are another way.
The stuff I'm turning up online is fairly heavy on the jargon, which may be offputting to her, but No, The Existence of Trans People Doesn’t Validate Gender Essentialism might be a start. Julia Serano's writings were very helpful for me in identifying that a lot of TERF-style objections are coming from internalized misogyny and the "feminist" idea that worthwhile women need to act more like men to be serious and important, while all women who acted feminine were automatically "hurting the cause" or being frivolous.
I don't think you're overreacting, and I don't think this is just about objections to hormones. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
posted by jaguar at 7:25 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
Is she logical enough that pointing out the logic flaw will help? If she doesn't believe in gender essentialism, then it makes no sense to say that trans people are being gender essentialists, since they're disproving the idea that all people born with penises are one way and all people born with vaginas are another way.
The stuff I'm turning up online is fairly heavy on the jargon, which may be offputting to her, but No, The Existence of Trans People Doesn’t Validate Gender Essentialism might be a start. Julia Serano's writings were very helpful for me in identifying that a lot of TERF-style objections are coming from internalized misogyny and the "feminist" idea that worthwhile women need to act more like men to be serious and important, while all women who acted feminine were automatically "hurting the cause" or being frivolous.
I don't think you're overreacting, and I don't think this is just about objections to hormones. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
posted by jaguar at 7:25 AM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
a lot of TERF-style objections are coming from internalized misogyny and the "feminist" idea that worthwhile women need to act more like men to be serious and important, while all women who acted feminine were automatically "hurting the cause" or being frivolous.
I meant to finish that thought: ... and therefore trans women were somehow "hurting the cause" by being feminine. It was also a helpful slap-upside-the-head moment when I realized that the reason a lot of trans women are feminine is not only choice but often also a question of survival, and it was the height of arrogance for me to be policing their gender presentation in any way.
posted by jaguar at 7:30 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I meant to finish that thought: ... and therefore trans women were somehow "hurting the cause" by being feminine. It was also a helpful slap-upside-the-head moment when I realized that the reason a lot of trans women are feminine is not only choice but often also a question of survival, and it was the height of arrogance for me to be policing their gender presentation in any way.
posted by jaguar at 7:30 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
She can't be a TERF because you can't even be a feminist in the first place and be against hormones. This means that along with not believing in the most readily-available personally-controllable discreet form contraception she's also anti-abortion and doesn't believe in the treatment of diabetes, thyroid disease, the kinds of cancer that only affect people with cervices/ovaries, certain fatal anomalies of pregnancy and childbirth, and much much more.
She's a trans-inclusive misogynist. That may just be because she's stupid and completely lacking in empathy and is only capable of parroting this one bullet point, and all of that is fixable she has to fix it herself. She might get more work done on that single, and you don't alienate your friends or compromise your morals in the meantime.
But really, I'll bet she doesn't have a problem with insulin. This phrase a stop gap for society to fully accept feminism is some weird-ass nonsense stuff and I think you probably have better things to do with your time.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:34 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
She's a trans-inclusive misogynist. That may just be because she's stupid and completely lacking in empathy and is only capable of parroting this one bullet point, and all of that is fixable she has to fix it herself. She might get more work done on that single, and you don't alienate your friends or compromise your morals in the meantime.
But really, I'll bet she doesn't have a problem with insulin. This phrase a stop gap for society to fully accept feminism is some weird-ass nonsense stuff and I think you probably have better things to do with your time.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:34 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I see two different things here. Your original question focused on the point "all I kept hearing was that hormones are bad, and therefor transitioning is bad." This is basically an issue of false beliefs on her part, possibly associated with an ideological commitment to notions of what is "natural" or "pure." If she holds these beliefs very deeply, it could easily be blinding her to the reality of trans people's lived experiences. If she is otherwise empathetic and open-minded, she ought to be willing to temporarily set aside her belief about hormones being bad, listen to actual testimony from trans people who have benefited from hormone therapy, and then re-examine her beliefs about hormones. If she can't do this, I think there is little to be done when someone is more committed to an ideology than to other people.
But, your follow-up also attributed her as saying that transitioning is "a stop gap for society to fully accept feminism". I think this is much more fraught; it is a position I associate with a particular intellectual tradition within radical feminism that sees gender as a cultural construct that necessarily subjugates women, and that any formal recognition of gender (including the gender of trans people) necessarily reifies and reinforces oppressive patriarchy. Of course, once again this is a commitment to an ideology that refuses to recognize the actual lived experience of trans people. Unfortunately, there is a compelling logic to it for many feminists, particularly I suspect for those who do not feel their own gender that strongly except as a burden.
It may be helpful to try to have a conversation (not an argument) with her about what each of your beliefs are about gender, setting aside the question of transitioning for a bit. It may also help to have a starting point for the discussion to work from. The best thing I've read about gender recently was Let's Talk About Gender, Baby by Will at Skepchick. You could both read that and then have a conversation about it: what you agree with, what you disagree with, etc.
When it comes time to discuss transitioning, I think DarlingBri is spot-on that the only real issue here is about bodily autonomy. She can hold whatever beliefs she likes about hormones, but judging others' decisions about what they do with their own bodies is arrogant and jerky. Is she similarly judgmental about other cis women's decisions to use hormonal birth control?
posted by biogeo at 7:37 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
But, your follow-up also attributed her as saying that transitioning is "a stop gap for society to fully accept feminism". I think this is much more fraught; it is a position I associate with a particular intellectual tradition within radical feminism that sees gender as a cultural construct that necessarily subjugates women, and that any formal recognition of gender (including the gender of trans people) necessarily reifies and reinforces oppressive patriarchy. Of course, once again this is a commitment to an ideology that refuses to recognize the actual lived experience of trans people. Unfortunately, there is a compelling logic to it for many feminists, particularly I suspect for those who do not feel their own gender that strongly except as a burden.
It may be helpful to try to have a conversation (not an argument) with her about what each of your beliefs are about gender, setting aside the question of transitioning for a bit. It may also help to have a starting point for the discussion to work from. The best thing I've read about gender recently was Let's Talk About Gender, Baby by Will at Skepchick. You could both read that and then have a conversation about it: what you agree with, what you disagree with, etc.
When it comes time to discuss transitioning, I think DarlingBri is spot-on that the only real issue here is about bodily autonomy. She can hold whatever beliefs she likes about hormones, but judging others' decisions about what they do with their own bodies is arrogant and jerky. Is she similarly judgmental about other cis women's decisions to use hormonal birth control?
posted by biogeo at 7:37 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was just about to say almost exactly what Lyn said. TERF or not she has a bad grasp of basic biology. People who have had thyroid cancer have to take "hormones." People who are diabetic have to take "hormones". Is that "bad" ? It's one thing to say "I don't think hormonal birth control isn't the right choice for me " or even "artificial birth control makes baby Jesus cry". it's something else entirely to say "hormones are bad". It doesn't even make sense.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:45 AM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's a bunch of stuff that the two of you have to work through to get on the same page on issues that are important to you. If you come across in person about her and these issues as you did here, I can see why the discussion went poorly, especially if she's bad with conflict management to begin with. It doesn't feel like you respect her views on hormones (which is totally fair, I wouldn't either) or her beliefs on gender/feminism and that you both got pretty emotional.
I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm not saying she's a bad person, just that you two may not be matched in a pretty fundamental way, and if dating is something you see as a prelude to having children together, I would never have kids with someone opposed to common and useful medicine.
posted by Candleman at 8:18 AM on December 18, 2015
I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm not saying she's a bad person, just that you two may not be matched in a pretty fundamental way, and if dating is something you see as a prelude to having children together, I would never have kids with someone opposed to common and useful medicine.
posted by Candleman at 8:18 AM on December 18, 2015
Whatever the issue, when you're feeling like you need to links-and-books somebody out of their beliefs in order for your relationship to continue, you're already at a real bad, tenuous place.
You're well within your rights to dump her for whatever reason you want to, but I would be more concerned with how she treats actual people she meets in her life, rather than the abstracted positions she takes in arguments. She's far more likely to ease her way out of untenable beliefs through experience and information that she comes to on her own, not materials placed in front of her for the purpose of changing her mind.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're well within your rights to dump her for whatever reason you want to, but I would be more concerned with how she treats actual people she meets in her life, rather than the abstracted positions she takes in arguments. She's far more likely to ease her way out of untenable beliefs through experience and information that she comes to on her own, not materials placed in front of her for the purpose of changing her mind.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
As a mother of a MTF teen, this thread is highly emotional territory for me. I am in the trenches. I fully support my daughter and her complete transition, from an intellectual standpoint. However, in reality, I am scared of the health effects of permanent hormone therapy. It's a choice between evils: my daughter takes hormones and is happy but suffers potential health repercussions, or she doesn't and is unhappy, but perhaps won't have hormone related health issues. (Although the rate of suicide is extremely high; a potential health issue from not being on hormones might be death.) I choose for my daughter to be happy, but it's not without fear. Doctors really don't know what the effects of this are long-term. Hormones are the therapy-du-jour, especially for children. I worry that 25 years from now, when they have a better custom cocktail formulated, they will know the effects of what we are doing now, and people will look at me and say "You let your daughter do WHAT?" So, I understand people who struggle with the idea of hormone therapy for transgender people.
There seems to be other problems created between the two of you because of this struggle that your girlfriend has, and she seems woefully uninformed if she can't even tell you why she feels this way, and it's possible that you don't belong with her. It's possible that educating her might change her mind. I would try to change her logic from "hormones=bad, therefore transition=bad" to "hormones might=bad but transition definitely=good so hormones have to be accepted" which is sort of where I am.
posted by molasses at 9:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
There seems to be other problems created between the two of you because of this struggle that your girlfriend has, and she seems woefully uninformed if she can't even tell you why she feels this way, and it's possible that you don't belong with her. It's possible that educating her might change her mind. I would try to change her logic from "hormones=bad, therefore transition=bad" to "hormones might=bad but transition definitely=good so hormones have to be accepted" which is sort of where I am.
posted by molasses at 9:35 AM on December 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
Book Excerpt: Gender Is More Than Performance by Julia Serano:
Look, I know that many contemporary queer folks and feminists embrace mantras like "all gender is performance," "all gender is drag," and "gender is just a construct." They seem empowered by the way these sayings give the impression that gender is merely a fiction. A facade. A figment of our imaginations. And of course, this is a convenient strategy, provided that you’re not a trans woman who lacks the means to change her legal sex to female, and who thus runs the very real risk of being locked up in an all-male jail cell. Provided that you’re not a trans man who has to navigate the discrepancy between his male identity and female history during job interviews and first dates. Whenever I hear someone who has not had a transsexual experience say that gender is just a construct or merely a performance, it always reminds me of that Stephen Colbert gag where he insists that he doesn’t see race. It’s easy to fictionalize an issue when you are not fully in touch with all of the ways in which you are privileged by it.posted by jaguar at 10:18 AM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
...Let’s stop claiming that certain genders and sexualities "reinforce the gender binary." In the past, that tactic has been used to dismiss butches and femmes, bisexuals, trans folks and our partners, and feminine people of every persuasion. Gender isn’t simply some faucet that we can turn on and off in order to appease other people, whether they be heterosexist bigots or queerer-than-thou hipsters. How about this: let’s stop pretending that we have all the answers, because when it comes to gender, none of us is fucking omniscient.
This isn't about her being against trans people. Not really. At the core of this is that the two of you seem to have a lot of difficulty communicating -- as others have pointed out, you're not even arguing about the same thing here.
Whether or not her beliefs align with yours, the fact that your communication is this broken is going to prevent you from having a healthy relationship. Right now the issue is trans rights, or the morality of hormones or whatever, but it's going to be something else next.
If you want to stay together, both of you are going to have to work on this. Can you each respect the other's beliefs enough to 'agree to disagree'? Can you both keep your discussions around sensitive subjects focused and on-topic, without being disrespectful or dismissive?
If her position on this issue is a deal-breaker, then by all means, DTMFA. But if you want to try to make it work, focus on improving your communication and respect, not how to bring her around to your point of view.
posted by ananci at 11:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Whether or not her beliefs align with yours, the fact that your communication is this broken is going to prevent you from having a healthy relationship. Right now the issue is trans rights, or the morality of hormones or whatever, but it's going to be something else next.
If you want to stay together, both of you are going to have to work on this. Can you each respect the other's beliefs enough to 'agree to disagree'? Can you both keep your discussions around sensitive subjects focused and on-topic, without being disrespectful or dismissive?
If her position on this issue is a deal-breaker, then by all means, DTMFA. But if you want to try to make it work, focus on improving your communication and respect, not how to bring her around to your point of view.
posted by ananci at 11:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
In general, don't delay breaking up with someone because you think that you can maybe change them.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:39 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
It sounds like she's anti-hormone in general. If she lived in my area (Pacific Northwest), I'd assume she was also highly health-conscious and on the "crunchy" side, might well also be anti-vax, unwilling to use antibiotics unless absolutely necessary, anti-GMO, into organic food. Most often, they're also either not religious, not Christian, or, if they do happen to be Christian, tend toward the non-conservative end of the spectrum.
These are all relatively normal things where I live, and don't have diddly-squat to do with trans, sexual preference, appearance choice, or anything of the sort. They have to do with HEALTH. Full stop.
This doesn't sound like the best relationship for either of you.
posted by stormyteal at 12:23 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
These are all relatively normal things where I live, and don't have diddly-squat to do with trans, sexual preference, appearance choice, or anything of the sort. They have to do with HEALTH. Full stop.
This doesn't sound like the best relationship for either of you.
posted by stormyteal at 12:23 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with stormyteal, this may be part of whole lot of things she sees as "unnatural" and is against, hormones being just one thing.
I learned something today via google, I had never seen the term TERF before, and had to look it up. I had heard of the attitude, read a book years ago expressing feminist hostility to trans people, but did not know there was an abbreviation for that. I think in general labels like that do not help any sort of compassionate discourse. When used here where not everyone is up on the latest lingo, it would be helpful to spell it out once.
posted by mermayd at 3:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I learned something today via google, I had never seen the term TERF before, and had to look it up. I had heard of the attitude, read a book years ago expressing feminist hostility to trans people, but did not know there was an abbreviation for that. I think in general labels like that do not help any sort of compassionate discourse. When used here where not everyone is up on the latest lingo, it would be helpful to spell it out once.
posted by mermayd at 3:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am not sure if your description of the tiff and your follow-up is enough to go on, but from what you have said, it does sound like you have conflicting values. Is it important that your values align with your partner's? If so, break up. If having shared values is not that important to you, don't break up. But don't just hang on thinking you can change her to complement you more suitably. It is both disrespectful and unlikely to occur.
posted by sevenofspades at 4:15 PM on December 18, 2015
posted by sevenofspades at 4:15 PM on December 18, 2015
There are ways to express dismay at / wondering about specific aspects of medical intervention for whatever without doing so in a dismissive/hurtful way, and what I am getting from your post, OP, is you felt like your partner was doing dismissive/hurtful stuff. I would be pissed and wary about this too! If you want to be sure I would get in a talk with her that lets you suss out whether this is bad opinions and ignorance proceeding from dumb medical ideas, or whether this is justifying feeling grossed out by trans people by dumb medical ideas. If that makes sense.
posted by beefetish at 5:21 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by beefetish at 5:21 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
On its own I could see differing with a loved one about the use of hormones in general and agreeing to disagree. I'd have problems with her lack of knowledge about science, but I don't know that I'd call it quits over that. After your update, though? That would make me seriously question whether or not we were compatible. If it was a matter of her using language in a clumsy way and/or not thinking intersectionally, that's one thing. We can all do better. But if she truly believes that a male-assigned body means Caitlyn Jenner was a man . . . I would say you need to have a frank conversation where you spell out what you think and ask her to do the same. I'll be honest, I couldn't be in relationship with someone whose beliefs aligned with the TERF worldview. And that's okay! You're not a bad person if this is a dealbreaker for you.
posted by atropos at 6:39 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by atropos at 6:39 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you should break up with her, because you feel that this issue (what to think about other people's health care choices and gender identity) is a significant ethical marker, and that her beliefs are unacceptable. And... that's your choice, you know? It wouldn't be everyone's choice, but it seems to be yours. Some issues loom large in our heart and tend to stand in for other things. There are issues which for other people would be just one stick in their bundle of worldviews, but which for me are personal and very important, and I couldn't be with someone who wasn't aligned with me on them. So, since you find her beliefs in this important-to-you area to be primitive and repugnant, I think you ought to just break up with her.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:29 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:29 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I have friends in [group]" is the oldest "but I'm not prejudiced!" bullshit line in the world. You can have friends and think they're the exception to a larger truth, or have friends who you think do bad or stupid things, or who are nice people but are in whatever way lesser. It's not a decent argument, here or anywhere.
As far as respecting her point of view goes, if her point of view is inherently transphobic or anti-medical care or she thinks that feminism will stop people from needing to transition (!!!), then it's time to get out because this is essentially agreeing to disagree about whether trans people are autonomous human beings who are authorities on their own lives and bodies and health and get to make their own decisions about what is best for them.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:39 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
As far as respecting her point of view goes, if her point of view is inherently transphobic or anti-medical care or she thinks that feminism will stop people from needing to transition (!!!), then it's time to get out because this is essentially agreeing to disagree about whether trans people are autonomous human beings who are authorities on their own lives and bodies and health and get to make their own decisions about what is best for them.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:39 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm a pretty privileged trans person, and certainly not a litmus test for all trans people (and not even on hormones!), but yes, I would be super offended if your girlfriend started referring to trans women as having been men in the past and implied that the necessary medical treatment that people choose for themselves has feminist implications. I would definitely take it personally and assume that she was transphobic and I would not compare it to, say, someone who believes the aluminum in non-natural deodorants is a carcinogen.
posted by Juliet Banana at 9:49 AM on December 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Juliet Banana at 9:49 AM on December 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
What do I do? We are six months in. I mean, can she change? Should I try? If not, this is dtmfa territory for me. I just don't know whether to try and weather this storm, or just bail immediately.
1. You should break up with her; not because she's a bad person (though she may be) but because you and she have some deep, fundamental differences of opinion on profound ethical matters.
2. Maybe she can change, but only if she wants to, and it doesn't sound like she wants to.
3. No, you should definitely not try. It will just make you both unhappy.
Finally: you speak about her in a way that easily comes across as condescending and superior, and although I can't know what you actually feel about her, it gives the impression that you maybe don't respect her thoughts and perspective 100%? You should have respect for the person you're with. A relationship can never work without that.
posted by clockzero at 1:20 PM on December 19, 2015
1. You should break up with her; not because she's a bad person (though she may be) but because you and she have some deep, fundamental differences of opinion on profound ethical matters.
2. Maybe she can change, but only if she wants to, and it doesn't sound like she wants to.
3. No, you should definitely not try. It will just make you both unhappy.
Finally: you speak about her in a way that easily comes across as condescending and superior, and although I can't know what you actually feel about her, it gives the impression that you maybe don't respect her thoughts and perspective 100%? You should have respect for the person you're with. A relationship can never work without that.
posted by clockzero at 1:20 PM on December 19, 2015
If she is past her early twenties and hasn't yet (as your description suggests) wrapped her mind around the idea that other people can have experiences fundamentally different from her own and that they are the experts on those experiences and that her judgment of them is, if nothing else, pointless, then she might not be ready for adult relationships. If you're thinking to seriously date women whose intellect and values you don't respect, but who you hope might be pliable and educable, you might reflect on the quality of feminist values you are manifesting in your relationships and relationship choices.
posted by Salamandrous at 2:04 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Salamandrous at 2:04 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It sounds like she is transphobic - afraid of the way that the existence of trans people challenges and destabilizes her understandings of hormones and gender. Some people start out like that but are willing to listen to other people's lived experiences, and willing to examine assumptions about gender and identity and make some adjustments to match reality, and some people aren't willing to change.
I don't know if she can change; it depends. But you can also say that you've already tried hard enough and waited long enough already, if you want to. I'd consider this a dealbreaker myself.
posted by mysh at 1:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]