What came first, the dirty floor or the egg?
October 11, 2015 1:06 AM Subscribe
My lovely guy and I live apart, he alone (for now) and I with roommates. I go to his apartment to get some alone time and not bother my roommates, but his and mine's definition of clean/bother of dirty are a bit different. I don't want to go over because I get squicked out, but he doesn't clean because I don't come over as often anymore. How to find a compromise?
He's never been the *cleanest* of people, and that didn't bother me too much since he's always lived with roommates (so I chalked it up to them), or we've been long distance and he would clean because I was coming in from out of town. Now that we live close and him by himself, I'm slowly realizing he isn't as clean as I imagined.
It's become where the dishes are piled with food, the toilet bowl has become black (??), the shower is also nearly black, and the bed has a lot of dirt, crumbs, etc, that I find in my hair and clothes when I wake up. He also doesn't really wash his sheets or towels very often.
Now, I know he has been really busy and tired from work, so I have offered to help him clean, which he turns down. And I thought to myself, well maybe he's depressed, but he says he's not, he just gets anxiety, which he's on medication for. I don't want to force myself into the apartment with a vacuum and stuff because I think he would be upset and possibly embarrassed. Neither of us can really afford a cleaning service. (And to be honest, I don't want to be his cleaning service either! I would love to help clean if he wanted, but I don't want to be cleaning his apartment for him because I'm the only one bothered? If we were sharing the same apartment, maybe I would feel differently.)
I don't want to be a nag or his mini mom. But I also get really bothered and stressed being in the messy apartment, and I know that sounds so dumb, but it just makes me anxious and I can't relax. There's nothing wrong with him of course if that's his style of living, but I just can't do some of the level of dirty. I imagine if we lived together in the future, I would just have to take charge of cleaning because it bothers me the most.
So anyways, I've mentioned to him a couple months ago, "Ehhh... I like that we can be alone at your apartment, but I just can't relax with the mess there. I guess I just won't go over as often?" Which made him sad, but I think he's gotten used to it, but I was secretly hoping that it would help him clean. Now it goes like this:
"Why don't you come on over for a date night?"
"Well, I don't really want to come over unless there aren't piles of rotting food on the counter and I can pee without wiping mold off myself... (OK I don't say that, but sometimes I want to... Instead I say it's just sort of dirty.)"
"Well, you don't come over anymore, so I don't clean anymore. If you came over more, I would clean."
BUT I LITERALLY CAN'T BECAUSE IT IS NEVER CLEAN. (I do try to make myself go over there once in awhile, I just bring my own towel and pillow and hold my breath.)
It's actually sort of a funny chicken and egg situation to me.
How do we find a compromise? Or how do I help? Obvious answer is just him coming to my apartment forevermore, but we never have the apartment to ourselves with the volume of roommates I have. We also have one bathroom and I know my roommates aren't super comfortable when he spends the night (which could get frequent), thus his place was ideal for alone time. Also, we totally used to have date nights at his place back in the day when his apartment didn't squick me out, so I know it's possible! Maybe we've dated so long that it's too comfortable..?
Thanks in advance!
He's never been the *cleanest* of people, and that didn't bother me too much since he's always lived with roommates (so I chalked it up to them), or we've been long distance and he would clean because I was coming in from out of town. Now that we live close and him by himself, I'm slowly realizing he isn't as clean as I imagined.
It's become where the dishes are piled with food, the toilet bowl has become black (??), the shower is also nearly black, and the bed has a lot of dirt, crumbs, etc, that I find in my hair and clothes when I wake up. He also doesn't really wash his sheets or towels very often.
Now, I know he has been really busy and tired from work, so I have offered to help him clean, which he turns down. And I thought to myself, well maybe he's depressed, but he says he's not, he just gets anxiety, which he's on medication for. I don't want to force myself into the apartment with a vacuum and stuff because I think he would be upset and possibly embarrassed. Neither of us can really afford a cleaning service. (And to be honest, I don't want to be his cleaning service either! I would love to help clean if he wanted, but I don't want to be cleaning his apartment for him because I'm the only one bothered? If we were sharing the same apartment, maybe I would feel differently.)
I don't want to be a nag or his mini mom. But I also get really bothered and stressed being in the messy apartment, and I know that sounds so dumb, but it just makes me anxious and I can't relax. There's nothing wrong with him of course if that's his style of living, but I just can't do some of the level of dirty. I imagine if we lived together in the future, I would just have to take charge of cleaning because it bothers me the most.
So anyways, I've mentioned to him a couple months ago, "Ehhh... I like that we can be alone at your apartment, but I just can't relax with the mess there. I guess I just won't go over as often?" Which made him sad, but I think he's gotten used to it, but I was secretly hoping that it would help him clean. Now it goes like this:
"Why don't you come on over for a date night?"
"Well, I don't really want to come over unless there aren't piles of rotting food on the counter and I can pee without wiping mold off myself... (OK I don't say that, but sometimes I want to... Instead I say it's just sort of dirty.)"
"Well, you don't come over anymore, so I don't clean anymore. If you came over more, I would clean."
BUT I LITERALLY CAN'T BECAUSE IT IS NEVER CLEAN. (I do try to make myself go over there once in awhile, I just bring my own towel and pillow and hold my breath.)
It's actually sort of a funny chicken and egg situation to me.
How do we find a compromise? Or how do I help? Obvious answer is just him coming to my apartment forevermore, but we never have the apartment to ourselves with the volume of roommates I have. We also have one bathroom and I know my roommates aren't super comfortable when he spends the night (which could get frequent), thus his place was ideal for alone time. Also, we totally used to have date nights at his place back in the day when his apartment didn't squick me out, so I know it's possible! Maybe we've dated so long that it's too comfortable..?
Thanks in advance!
If you ever move in with this person, not only will you be doing all the cleaning, but you'll find he gets pee all over the floor and tramps mud over the carpet and leaves red wine spills to lie on the wood furniture - because he has no awareness of the job of cleaning those things up. Then you'll find all the other parts of day to day partnered life that he thinks are a woman's job, or someone's job but for sure not HIS job.
I don't think there is a compromise to be found in the matter of "likes living in filth and squalor more than he likes spending time with me". This guy is specifically telling you that he is not prepared to make the slightest bit of effort himself.
Personally I'd dump him. Failing that, I'd tell him that you're not going round there unless it's clean, AND that he can only come to yours every (how ever often is reasonable), and that it's completely his problem to decide how he wants to deal with that. Then just stick to your guns and become a broken record. If it turns out that you don't see him very often and he still doesn't clean, that's your cue to evaluate how much he gives a shit about this relationship when it's mildly inconvenient instead of just all cuddles all the time.
posted by emilyw at 1:23 AM on October 11, 2015 [93 favorites]
I don't think there is a compromise to be found in the matter of "likes living in filth and squalor more than he likes spending time with me". This guy is specifically telling you that he is not prepared to make the slightest bit of effort himself.
Personally I'd dump him. Failing that, I'd tell him that you're not going round there unless it's clean, AND that he can only come to yours every (how ever often is reasonable), and that it's completely his problem to decide how he wants to deal with that. Then just stick to your guns and become a broken record. If it turns out that you don't see him very often and he still doesn't clean, that's your cue to evaluate how much he gives a shit about this relationship when it's mildly inconvenient instead of just all cuddles all the time.
posted by emilyw at 1:23 AM on October 11, 2015 [93 favorites]
I'm no neat freak, but his ability to keep his space vaguely habitable should not be conditional on your presence. You've told him that you'll come over if it's clean. I would basically not have any alone time at anyone's house until he's gotten with the program - not as a punishment, but as a perfectly natural consequence of the situation - your roommates don't like him over, and he can't expect you to sleep in a pig sty bird's nest. He is the only one with the capacity to change one of those situations, so if he wants to be alone with you, he'll do it. If he doesn't do it even then, you can at least be pretty sure you don't want to be living with him...
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 1:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 1:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
One possible starting point, assuming you don't want to break up could be picking something manageable for him and still bearable for you: "I don't want to come over unless there are clean sheets on the bed and a clean towel available, throw a load of laundry in the wash". If you haven't tried that, it might be that something that was single-action and fairly easy wouldn't seem overwhelming. (If he has only one set of sheets and one set of towels, go to Target or the thrift store with him and get more.)
I think it's possible to build better habits from a single starting point - I lived with a friend who was basically at that level of filth, and over the years he did change until he's actually pretty clean now.
It's really frustrating and it's really sexist, and it's a tough battle to win. (I just did all the goddamn dishes again last night because no one in this house does dishes, and I'll be cleaning the kitchen tomorrow because otherwise everything can be utterly caked with filth and no one will do anything about it as I know from experience.)
But again, if you don't want to break up, starting with one thing might be the way to go.
posted by Frowner at 1:36 AM on October 11, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think it's possible to build better habits from a single starting point - I lived with a friend who was basically at that level of filth, and over the years he did change until he's actually pretty clean now.
It's really frustrating and it's really sexist, and it's a tough battle to win. (I just did all the goddamn dishes again last night because no one in this house does dishes, and I'll be cleaning the kitchen tomorrow because otherwise everything can be utterly caked with filth and no one will do anything about it as I know from experience.)
But again, if you don't want to break up, starting with one thing might be the way to go.
posted by Frowner at 1:36 AM on October 11, 2015 [12 favorites]
You're looking for a way you can compromise. Well, your boyfriend has to make an effort too, whether it's by letting you do the cleaning or offering to clean some himself without you having to come over "more often." You offered to clean, and you still go over there even though you have to bring your own towel and hold your breath.
On the grand scheme of relationship problems this does sound relatively trivial, but I would think about whether this is part of a general pattern of failing to find solutions to problems together. At the very least, you should think about whether you'd resent having to be the only one cleaning or thinking about cleanliness over a long period of time.
posted by melvinwang at 1:48 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
On the grand scheme of relationship problems this does sound relatively trivial, but I would think about whether this is part of a general pattern of failing to find solutions to problems together. At the very least, you should think about whether you'd resent having to be the only one cleaning or thinking about cleanliness over a long period of time.
posted by melvinwang at 1:48 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's become where the dishes are piled with food, the toilet bowl has become black (??), the shower is also nearly black, and the bed has a lot of dirt, crumbs, etc, that I find in my hair and clothes when I wake up. He also doesn't really wash his sheets or towels very often.
Well for starters this isn't messy, it's dirty. Dirty and unhygienic. I'm a messy person with fairly low housekeeping standards (and the slightly gross apartment to match), but this is still far below what I'd find acceptable. Most people would not be happy in an environment like this. It seems that your boyfriend either doesn't realise how really bad this is or somehow doesn't care. Hopefully the former is more likely.
"Well, I don't really want to come over unless there aren't piles of rotting food on the counter and I can pee without wiping mold off myself... (OK I don't say that, but sometimes I want to... Instead I say it's just sort of dirty.)"
So I think the first thing you should do is stop beating around the bush. Tell him you're not coming over because his house isn't messy, it's dirty and you find it gross. And that most people would find it gross because it is actively unhygienic. That you don't expect a pristine show home with everything in it's special place, but you do need a normal standard of cleanliness in the places you hang out. You don't have to be mean about it, but having a house that dirty is something you're allowed to point out and not want to deal with.
Then, unfortunately, it's kind of on him. It's his house and if that's how he wants to live there's not a lot you can do. Either go over and look the other way or stay at your house. Personally I'd choose the second option but then I'm allergic to mould. But at least make it really clear to him the choice that he's making, because I think that right now he doesn't actually quite understand the situation.
I have in the past offered to spend a day helping my then-boyfriend get his place properly cleaned up one single time when it got really bad, because it can be difficult to get back on top of when things slide this much. But it was with the caveat that he then make the effort to maintain the place afterwards (which he did). It worked because he recognised there was a problem before I got involved (so I wasn't in the nagging role) and years later we both still makes an effort to keep things clean even when they're messy. So I think that could be an option for you but your boyfriend's attitude probably needs to change a bit first, because I agree that you're not his housekeeper and it won't make anyone happy for you to be cast into that role.
posted by shelleycat at 1:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [19 favorites]
Well for starters this isn't messy, it's dirty. Dirty and unhygienic. I'm a messy person with fairly low housekeeping standards (and the slightly gross apartment to match), but this is still far below what I'd find acceptable. Most people would not be happy in an environment like this. It seems that your boyfriend either doesn't realise how really bad this is or somehow doesn't care. Hopefully the former is more likely.
"Well, I don't really want to come over unless there aren't piles of rotting food on the counter and I can pee without wiping mold off myself... (OK I don't say that, but sometimes I want to... Instead I say it's just sort of dirty.)"
So I think the first thing you should do is stop beating around the bush. Tell him you're not coming over because his house isn't messy, it's dirty and you find it gross. And that most people would find it gross because it is actively unhygienic. That you don't expect a pristine show home with everything in it's special place, but you do need a normal standard of cleanliness in the places you hang out. You don't have to be mean about it, but having a house that dirty is something you're allowed to point out and not want to deal with.
Then, unfortunately, it's kind of on him. It's his house and if that's how he wants to live there's not a lot you can do. Either go over and look the other way or stay at your house. Personally I'd choose the second option but then I'm allergic to mould. But at least make it really clear to him the choice that he's making, because I think that right now he doesn't actually quite understand the situation.
I have in the past offered to spend a day helping my then-boyfriend get his place properly cleaned up one single time when it got really bad, because it can be difficult to get back on top of when things slide this much. But it was with the caveat that he then make the effort to maintain the place afterwards (which he did). It worked because he recognised there was a problem before I got involved (so I wasn't in the nagging role) and years later we both still makes an effort to keep things clean even when they're messy. So I think that could be an option for you but your boyfriend's attitude probably needs to change a bit first, because I agree that you're not his housekeeper and it won't make anyone happy for you to be cast into that role.
posted by shelleycat at 1:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [19 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok, maybe this question painted him in an unflattering light, so I just want to reiterate that he is really busy with work and works long night shifts for the past month(s). He's tired and when he has days off, I can get if you know, cleaning the black floor of the shower is not his MO. He's also given me the reply of "Well, I'm living by myself for the first time now, but if I had a roommate (or I lived with him I guess) I would feel obligated to clean more often and keep the place nice." Which is true now that I think about it, the missing roommate for the past few months has correlated with the decline of the apartments cleanliness.
Anyways, just throwing that out there, since I'm not really looking to dump him, more looking for compromise and communication and/or solutions.
Thanks!
posted by buttonedup at 2:10 AM on October 11, 2015
Anyways, just throwing that out there, since I'm not really looking to dump him, more looking for compromise and communication and/or solutions.
Thanks!
posted by buttonedup at 2:10 AM on October 11, 2015
If he can't be bothered to clean, the obvious solution is not for you to come over and breathe mold spores, but for him to hire a cleaner. That's what grownups do: they clean, or they pay someone to clean.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:15 AM on October 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:15 AM on October 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
"Well, I don't really want to come over unless there aren't piles of rotting food on the counter and I can pee without wiping mold off myself... (OK I don't say that, but sometimes I want to... Instead I say it's just sort of dirty.)"
Say this to him. Say exactly why you don't go over. If you're in a relationship with someone, you owe them the truth. Right now, you're giving him a watered down version of the truth, which is "nice", for some senses of the word, but it's holding you back. This situation isn't going to magically get better some day without you being clear. You've tried level one behaviours, like hinting and taking your own clean things over and they've not worked. So now it's time for level two. "I don't want to use a toilet that is encrusted with dirt."
Re your update, it's kind of odd that he feels it necessary to clean for a roommate, but not his girlfriend. If he's got time to clean for a roommate, he's got time to clean for you. If you're dumping Date Night on him with a few hours notice, then I can see how he wouldn't have time to get his game together, but if you're giving him a few days notice, that's different. He's offering to clean more if you come over more, but I think it's better to say I'll clean more to enable you to come over. Does he want to spend time with you or not? If he does, he needs to put the work in to ensure that can happen.
He gets to live in whatever fashion he chooses in his own place. That's his right as an adult. But he also needs to perform a cost:benefit analysis on all of this. Is the discomfort of cleaning worth more to him than the cost of not seeing you as much?
tl;dr: tell him that the place is making you uncomfortable in clear and explicit terms, rather than being vague about it, and ask him if seeing you is more or less important than cleaning. Then decide what you're going to do if he chooses not cleaning over seeing you.
posted by Solomon at 2:19 AM on October 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
Say this to him. Say exactly why you don't go over. If you're in a relationship with someone, you owe them the truth. Right now, you're giving him a watered down version of the truth, which is "nice", for some senses of the word, but it's holding you back. This situation isn't going to magically get better some day without you being clear. You've tried level one behaviours, like hinting and taking your own clean things over and they've not worked. So now it's time for level two. "I don't want to use a toilet that is encrusted with dirt."
Re your update, it's kind of odd that he feels it necessary to clean for a roommate, but not his girlfriend. If he's got time to clean for a roommate, he's got time to clean for you. If you're dumping Date Night on him with a few hours notice, then I can see how he wouldn't have time to get his game together, but if you're giving him a few days notice, that's different. He's offering to clean more if you come over more, but I think it's better to say I'll clean more to enable you to come over. Does he want to spend time with you or not? If he does, he needs to put the work in to ensure that can happen.
He gets to live in whatever fashion he chooses in his own place. That's his right as an adult. But he also needs to perform a cost:benefit analysis on all of this. Is the discomfort of cleaning worth more to him than the cost of not seeing you as much?
tl;dr: tell him that the place is making you uncomfortable in clear and explicit terms, rather than being vague about it, and ask him if seeing you is more or less important than cleaning. Then decide what you're going to do if he chooses not cleaning over seeing you.
posted by Solomon at 2:19 AM on October 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'm currently in a long distance relationship so for the last two years I've been living by myself - something I'm very very not used to doing. I work at least 10 hours per day plus most weekends at a job that is both physically and mentally exhausting. And I loath both cooking and housework. Yet I still find a hour every two weeks to clean the shower and throw some toilet cleaner around, and I change my towels weekly and my sheets probably monthly and there are never ever crumbs or dirt in my bed. These things aren't exactly arduous or unreasonable.
So for communication I think you need to be more direct with him because you haven't been. And for compromise he needs to keep his place at some minimum level of cleanliness, for his own health as well as for your sake. Then you can negotiate extra stuff from there.
But right now he's not even doing the tiniest smallest part of his side of things, and there's no where for you to even negotiate from until he does.
posted by shelleycat at 2:22 AM on October 11, 2015 [20 favorites]
So for communication I think you need to be more direct with him because you haven't been. And for compromise he needs to keep his place at some minimum level of cleanliness, for his own health as well as for your sake. Then you can negotiate extra stuff from there.
But right now he's not even doing the tiniest smallest part of his side of things, and there's no where for you to even negotiate from until he does.
posted by shelleycat at 2:22 AM on October 11, 2015 [20 favorites]
If he's living with other people I could understand why collectively the place could get that bad if no one was doing any cleaning. But if he works as much as you say, he's never home to make any mess so I'm at a loss to see how it can be as disgusting as you describe. (I used to work stupid hours when I was living alone and the place resembled a hotel room just because no one really lived there to make a mess.)
It's not even that he doesn't care enough about you to pick up after himself. He doesn't care enough about himself to want to live in a place that's not encrusted in mould and urine. The place is a health hazard and it doesn't bother him at all.
I'm not sure how you change that mindset. I mean you can clean for him but you're not his maid, you don't want to start that because it will become expected and why should you and it doesn't solve the basic issue that he either can't or won't clean up after himself. Do you think he may have depression or some other mental issue going on, adults don't generally behave this way?
Someone mentioned up thread that it was trivial but it spoke to finding solutions to problems together. I agree in part but I don't think it's trivial. It speaks to self care, it speaks to how he views your role and to how he values your relationship (apparently not that much, you've told him you don't want to come over because it's not clean and he doesn't care enough to do anything about it so he can see you more...) So I would keep all this in mind when you think about where your relationship is going and how you talk to him about this.
And please, please, don't have kids (if this is something you want with this man) until you have this sorted. The idea of raising a baby in this environment is just wrong.
posted by Jubey at 2:52 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's not even that he doesn't care enough about you to pick up after himself. He doesn't care enough about himself to want to live in a place that's not encrusted in mould and urine. The place is a health hazard and it doesn't bother him at all.
I'm not sure how you change that mindset. I mean you can clean for him but you're not his maid, you don't want to start that because it will become expected and why should you and it doesn't solve the basic issue that he either can't or won't clean up after himself. Do you think he may have depression or some other mental issue going on, adults don't generally behave this way?
Someone mentioned up thread that it was trivial but it spoke to finding solutions to problems together. I agree in part but I don't think it's trivial. It speaks to self care, it speaks to how he views your role and to how he values your relationship (apparently not that much, you've told him you don't want to come over because it's not clean and he doesn't care enough to do anything about it so he can see you more...) So I would keep all this in mind when you think about where your relationship is going and how you talk to him about this.
And please, please, don't have kids (if this is something you want with this man) until you have this sorted. The idea of raising a baby in this environment is just wrong.
posted by Jubey at 2:52 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Can you set up, in advance, a regular time to go to his place, like Tuesday nights or every other Sunday or whatever? This gives him 1. Advance notice so that he has time to clean around his busy schedule and 2. Notice that you plan to come over so that he has a reason to clean. I would suggest giving him some minimum guidelines, but also make it clear that it is a minimum. Like, I expect at least clean sheets and towels and for some effort to be put in to the bathroom in general.
I have to say, though, that I agree with others that I think this is not a time management issue on his part, but an issue of priorities. You are not a high enough priority in his life to warrant the inconvenience of cleaning. For example, does he play video games, go out with friends, visit family? If he does any of those things yet does not have time to clean up so that the two of you can have time alone, well, I think you should think about having a serious discussion about priorities.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:13 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have to say, though, that I agree with others that I think this is not a time management issue on his part, but an issue of priorities. You are not a high enough priority in his life to warrant the inconvenience of cleaning. For example, does he play video games, go out with friends, visit family? If he does any of those things yet does not have time to clean up so that the two of you can have time alone, well, I think you should think about having a serious discussion about priorities.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:13 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
You are also giving him an out, dressed as a secret ultimatum ("if it's not clean I won't come over"). I suspect you, and most of humanity, are interpreting that as "If you value my relationship with you, you will make an effort to clean because I like it, and you want to see me, and want me to respect you". He, unfortunately, is interpreting it as "Here's a get out of jail free card, you can just come over to my clean place whenever we see each other, your lack of personal hygiene* and refusal to compromise for me has no real impact on me or our relationship status."
You need to have a come to jesus talk, not in a threatening way, but in a "Bort, I want to go over to your place and see you there, it's important to me. But I need it to be clean, when it's not clean, it makes me feel like you don't care about me, or our relationship, or that being messy is more important to you. By clean, I mean 1) all dishes older than ten hours cleaned, 2) bedsheets if not clean at least unstained and un-gritty, and 3) clean toilet and shower. I want us to have a great future together, and to realise that future we need to spend time in each other's spaces, and time accommodating each other in those spaces. I am open to working with you if something in my house is upsetting for you. Can you do this for me on Wednesday night next week?"
Be specific about what you don't like, be specific about you want to change, and be specific about why you want these changes and what the outcomes will be..
Best of luck OP.
* that's what this is, I mean, what you're talking about is gross. It's not about being 'neat'
posted by smoke at 3:36 AM on October 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
You need to have a come to jesus talk, not in a threatening way, but in a "Bort, I want to go over to your place and see you there, it's important to me. But I need it to be clean, when it's not clean, it makes me feel like you don't care about me, or our relationship, or that being messy is more important to you. By clean, I mean 1) all dishes older than ten hours cleaned, 2) bedsheets if not clean at least unstained and un-gritty, and 3) clean toilet and shower. I want us to have a great future together, and to realise that future we need to spend time in each other's spaces, and time accommodating each other in those spaces. I am open to working with you if something in my house is upsetting for you. Can you do this for me on Wednesday night next week?"
Be specific about what you don't like, be specific about you want to change, and be specific about why you want these changes and what the outcomes will be..
Best of luck OP.
* that's what this is, I mean, what you're talking about is gross. It's not about being 'neat'
posted by smoke at 3:36 AM on October 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
Well, one thing you can do is to figure out some basic things he can do on a regular basis that would bring his place up to standards you can both live with; how much time that would actually take; and how to make that into something he does regularly.
For example, if it's financially possible you could hire a cleaning person for a one-time deep clean. Then arrange to have a cleaning person come over once a month for at most two hours. The rest of the time, he does things like have cleaning wipes in his bathroom and in his kitchen, so that he can wipe things down in a few seconds. (For example, he can wipe down the bathroom sink and toilet while the shower water's warming up. The cleaning person can do once-monthly shower maintenance.) He can get a swiffer to do the kitchen/bathroom floors. If he's got a broom or a vacuum he can do the rest of the apartment once a week or two when you're on the way over. (5-10 minutes?) He can get in the habit of not eating in the bedroom and of washing the sheets once a week. He can agree to do some of those things while you're in the apartment with him. For dishes, if he doesn't have a dishwasher then he can at least put all the dirty dishes in the sink and have some nice plastic ones for you to use (not optimal, but it's a start and at some point he might start feeling like an idiot and washing up more.) He can make sure, at the very minimum, that the bathroom and at least whichever room you spend the most time in is clean when you're over.
Basically, there are a lot of things that can be done with a minimal investment of time that aren't enough for serious cleanliness but would be plenty for keeping things up in between real cleaning once a month or so. And if it turns out that his problem is not just lack of caring but also an inability to stay on schedule, then maybe he needs to swallow his pride and agree to do the cleaning when you're there (with either your help or just your company, but either way doing at least half the work himself).
Finally, ask him to think of you at least like a roommate in terms of the consideration you deserve. And make it clear that that's an expectation you'd always have of him, regardless of what stage you're at in the relationship (assuming that's true).
posted by egg drop at 3:42 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
For example, if it's financially possible you could hire a cleaning person for a one-time deep clean. Then arrange to have a cleaning person come over once a month for at most two hours. The rest of the time, he does things like have cleaning wipes in his bathroom and in his kitchen, so that he can wipe things down in a few seconds. (For example, he can wipe down the bathroom sink and toilet while the shower water's warming up. The cleaning person can do once-monthly shower maintenance.) He can get a swiffer to do the kitchen/bathroom floors. If he's got a broom or a vacuum he can do the rest of the apartment once a week or two when you're on the way over. (5-10 minutes?) He can get in the habit of not eating in the bedroom and of washing the sheets once a week. He can agree to do some of those things while you're in the apartment with him. For dishes, if he doesn't have a dishwasher then he can at least put all the dirty dishes in the sink and have some nice plastic ones for you to use (not optimal, but it's a start and at some point he might start feeling like an idiot and washing up more.) He can make sure, at the very minimum, that the bathroom and at least whichever room you spend the most time in is clean when you're over.
Basically, there are a lot of things that can be done with a minimal investment of time that aren't enough for serious cleanliness but would be plenty for keeping things up in between real cleaning once a month or so. And if it turns out that his problem is not just lack of caring but also an inability to stay on schedule, then maybe he needs to swallow his pride and agree to do the cleaning when you're there (with either your help or just your company, but either way doing at least half the work himself).
Finally, ask him to think of you at least like a roommate in terms of the consideration you deserve. And make it clear that that's an expectation you'd always have of him, regardless of what stage you're at in the relationship (assuming that's true).
posted by egg drop at 3:42 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you can get him to recognize that the filth in which he is living is unacceptable to you (as others have wisely suggested above) and he's concerned about time, you might direct him to Unfuck Your Habitat. Breaking cleaning into tiny manageable tasks might make things seem less onerous to him & result in improvements. The UFYH app has 5 minute (and longer) challenges that could help chip away at some of the grossness without overwhelming him. When I've been overwhelmed with work and less able to clean, it has made a difference to me (I'm messy by inclination but prefer to live in a clean space). There are lots of other apps for managing habits/cleanliness & he might look around to find one that suits him if UFYH doesn't. But the success of this depends on him acknowledging that there is a problem and being willing to put in at least some effort to change.
posted by bibliotropic at 4:47 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bibliotropic at 4:47 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also get really bothered and stressed being in the messy apartment, and I know that sounds so dumb, but it just makes me anxious and I can't relax.
This is not at all dumb! Being able to eat, sleep, and relieve yourself without worrying about contracting a disease is a pretty basic thing to require from a living space. You are really nice about his anxiety so be kind to yourself about your (very reasonable) anxiety, too.
There's nothing wrong with him of course if that's his style of living, but I just can't do some of the level of dirty.
Okay, but, as an avowed slob, there IS something wrong here. I have created some fabulous messes in my day but even I have no idea how you get a toilet/shower to turn black. I don't sleep in crumbs (I'd at least brush them onto the floor!). I wash sheets and towels semi-regularly because really that is way easier than a lot of other household chores, even if I might not get around to getting them out of the dryer for a few days. The way he is living is not healthy or normal. It's not a matter of personal preference or the Oscar<>Felix continuum but of basic adult living skills. If he's too anxious/depressed to do this stuff, he really needs to be getting more treatment so that he can be a good partner to you.
It's nice of you to have compassion for his issues, but please take care of yourself, too. Other posters have given you great scripts for expressing your needs. If he responds well to those, and starts cleaning up more, then he is the great guy you say he is.
(You have posted twice about this relationship before and your doubts about marrying him. It really does not seem to me like those doubts are unfounded. It's true that anyone else you choose to date with also have flaws, but this level of slovenliness is pretty exceptional in my experience.)
posted by chaiminda at 5:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is not at all dumb! Being able to eat, sleep, and relieve yourself without worrying about contracting a disease is a pretty basic thing to require from a living space. You are really nice about his anxiety so be kind to yourself about your (very reasonable) anxiety, too.
There's nothing wrong with him of course if that's his style of living, but I just can't do some of the level of dirty.
Okay, but, as an avowed slob, there IS something wrong here. I have created some fabulous messes in my day but even I have no idea how you get a toilet/shower to turn black. I don't sleep in crumbs (I'd at least brush them onto the floor!). I wash sheets and towels semi-regularly because really that is way easier than a lot of other household chores, even if I might not get around to getting them out of the dryer for a few days. The way he is living is not healthy or normal. It's not a matter of personal preference or the Oscar<>Felix continuum but of basic adult living skills. If he's too anxious/depressed to do this stuff, he really needs to be getting more treatment so that he can be a good partner to you.
It's nice of you to have compassion for his issues, but please take care of yourself, too. Other posters have given you great scripts for expressing your needs. If he responds well to those, and starts cleaning up more, then he is the great guy you say he is.
(You have posted twice about this relationship before and your doubts about marrying him. It really does not seem to me like those doubts are unfounded. It's true that anyone else you choose to date with also have flaws, but this level of slovenliness is pretty exceptional in my experience.)
posted by chaiminda at 5:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's bad enough that he'll clean for a roommate but not his girlfriend.
But it's really, really bad that he won't clean, or get a service, for his own health and well-being.
posted by jgirl at 5:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
But it's really, really bad that he won't clean, or get a service, for his own health and well-being.
posted by jgirl at 5:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think you should just say that it hurts your feelings that he won't make it nice for you. I mean, his answer to "I can't come over because it's too messy" is "OK"?
posted by ctmf at 6:00 AM on October 11, 2015
posted by ctmf at 6:00 AM on October 11, 2015
The way you get a shower to turn black is to shower in it with dirty feet for many months without scrubbing the tub, by the way. It really takes commitment to never, never cleaning. I used to live in a house where I was the only one who cleaned the bathroom. I moved out. Perhaps four months months later I came by again for something and saw that the tub was black. It took three rather dirty people, at least one of whom did in fact shower daily, to get the tub black in four months. One person blackening the tub takes commitment.
One thing I wonder: has this guy ever learned to clean? I've had many male housemates, and many of them had very few cleaning responsibilities as children, so they literally do not know a lot of basic stuff, or even how to problem-solve. So he might not know about using a scrubbing agent (barkeeper's friend, maybe) or something purpose-built plus a scrubby sponge to clean the tub - he might just be flailing at it with a damp towel or something and then giving it up as a bad job. Again, if you're having a conversation with him about cleaning and you can elicit the information, it might be worth figuring out whether he knows cleaning basics and has the correct tools (mop, mop bucket, appropriate cleaning agents, rags, etc).
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
One thing I wonder: has this guy ever learned to clean? I've had many male housemates, and many of them had very few cleaning responsibilities as children, so they literally do not know a lot of basic stuff, or even how to problem-solve. So he might not know about using a scrubbing agent (barkeeper's friend, maybe) or something purpose-built plus a scrubby sponge to clean the tub - he might just be flailing at it with a damp towel or something and then giving it up as a bad job. Again, if you're having a conversation with him about cleaning and you can elicit the information, it might be worth figuring out whether he knows cleaning basics and has the correct tools (mop, mop bucket, appropriate cleaning agents, rags, etc).
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Anxiety goes with disorganization which goes with not cleaning. When you're disorganized, leaving something where it drops is the only way you have a chance to ever find it again. Someone cleaning up will disturb the hidden order in the mess.
But the deeper reason he won't let you clean up for him is that he's ashamed to give you that task. And he's ashamed to tell you that.
On top of that, he learned to not see the the dirt because seeing it isn't motivating, it's overwhelming and an extra source of anxiety.
Any solution to the cleaning problem has to contend with these factors. He will have to let both you and himself face the shame and anxiety.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
But the deeper reason he won't let you clean up for him is that he's ashamed to give you that task. And he's ashamed to tell you that.
On top of that, he learned to not see the the dirt because seeing it isn't motivating, it's overwhelming and an extra source of anxiety.
Any solution to the cleaning problem has to contend with these factors. He will have to let both you and himself face the shame and anxiety.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Hey guys, thanks for the insightful answers so far. Keep them coming!
Per someone's comment, oh he knows how to clean. He's done it before, when his roommates before him were more messy than him and I learned that he spontaneously cleaned the toilet in the night (did not ask him or bring this up, so maybe he got tired of it).
I'm starting to wonder if he is more anxious than he's letting on, so I think I've come up with a script to talk to him. This is half my fault too. I didn't really communicate clearly, I thought this issue was too trivial to really bring up! But getting answers make me think mayyyyybe not.
So:
1. Double check on his anxiety status and if there's anything more going on there recently,
2. "Hey, X, I know you're busy and this might seem like a silly thing to get worked up over, but the dirty apartment is really bothering me. It makes me feel like I'm lower on the totem pole, beneath cleaning, or that my needs and feelings aren't that important in comparison, and I know you wouldn't do that on purpose, but that's just how it makes me feel! And this is important to me, and will still be in the foreseeable future. If there's anything that bothers you at my house, we can talk about changing that too! I can let you wear dirty jeans...on top of a blanket on my bed. And set up X cleaning situation, etc." he's a sweet, sensitive guy, so I think he'll be really sad and embarrassed, but I think he'll understand. Keeping up with the cleaning long term may be a different bridge to cross. How does that script sound?
posted by buttonedup at 6:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Per someone's comment, oh he knows how to clean. He's done it before, when his roommates before him were more messy than him and I learned that he spontaneously cleaned the toilet in the night (did not ask him or bring this up, so maybe he got tired of it).
I'm starting to wonder if he is more anxious than he's letting on, so I think I've come up with a script to talk to him. This is half my fault too. I didn't really communicate clearly, I thought this issue was too trivial to really bring up! But getting answers make me think mayyyyybe not.
So:
1. Double check on his anxiety status and if there's anything more going on there recently,
2. "Hey, X, I know you're busy and this might seem like a silly thing to get worked up over, but the dirty apartment is really bothering me. It makes me feel like I'm lower on the totem pole, beneath cleaning, or that my needs and feelings aren't that important in comparison, and I know you wouldn't do that on purpose, but that's just how it makes me feel! And this is important to me, and will still be in the foreseeable future. If there's anything that bothers you at my house, we can talk about changing that too! I can let you wear dirty jeans...on top of a blanket on my bed. And set up X cleaning situation, etc." he's a sweet, sensitive guy, so I think he'll be really sad and embarrassed, but I think he'll understand. Keeping up with the cleaning long term may be a different bridge to cross. How does that script sound?
posted by buttonedup at 6:43 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you are doing all kinds of emotional labor that he really, really needs to do himself. Give him this thread to read and ask him why he would burden you with his solving his mental twists around his own basic self-care. Which is a prerequisite for having you in his life.
posted by Dashy at 7:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 7:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [40 favorites]
"I would rather go use a gas station bathroom. It might be dirtier, but I don't have any expectations that the gas station customers/cleaners like or respect me enough to bother and I'm not supposed to want to sleep/hang out with any of them."
posted by artychoke at 7:19 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by artychoke at 7:19 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think snickerdoodle's script is very good. OP, your own script is so placating and really very indirect. Lying on your bed in dirty jeans what?
I really don't care for how his excuses to you are so other-centric. Oh, I'd be cleaner if I had roommates. Oh, I'd be cleaner if you came over more. He's basically not able to take responsibility for his own environment.
I guess I'm a very blunt person but I'd pretty much just say, "Your place is filthy and gross and I'm not coming over anymore until you can keep your home like a grownup person."
When I first started dating my husband, he had this terrible futon bed. It had belonged to a friend of ours, and then she gave it to someone else who lived in a basement apartment which flooded, and then my guy had ended up with it. Third-hand mattress is gross enough, but I have asthma and allergies and the thing positively reeked of mold and mildew. I told him flat-out no more sleep-overs until he replaced it because I wasn't going to risk my health. A few days later, he calls me and asks if I have Saturday afternoon free because he's going to pick out a new mattress and wants me to come along to give my input. It made me feel so valued, which I was lacking in previous relationships, and my bluntness was appreciated by him because it gave him a clear course of action.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:04 AM on October 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
I really don't care for how his excuses to you are so other-centric. Oh, I'd be cleaner if I had roommates. Oh, I'd be cleaner if you came over more. He's basically not able to take responsibility for his own environment.
I guess I'm a very blunt person but I'd pretty much just say, "Your place is filthy and gross and I'm not coming over anymore until you can keep your home like a grownup person."
When I first started dating my husband, he had this terrible futon bed. It had belonged to a friend of ours, and then she gave it to someone else who lived in a basement apartment which flooded, and then my guy had ended up with it. Third-hand mattress is gross enough, but I have asthma and allergies and the thing positively reeked of mold and mildew. I told him flat-out no more sleep-overs until he replaced it because I wasn't going to risk my health. A few days later, he calls me and asks if I have Saturday afternoon free because he's going to pick out a new mattress and wants me to come along to give my input. It made me feel so valued, which I was lacking in previous relationships, and my bluntness was appreciated by him because it gave him a clear course of action.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:04 AM on October 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
All I want to add is that your needs aren't dumb or silly. They are normal. It is absolute nonsense that he is willing to live in squalor and that he doesn't care if it bothers you.
Now he might not understand that it bothers you (I don't know how since the situation sounds pretty bad). So saying things like "your towels smell and need to be soaked in vinegar to remove the mildew smell. Washing isn't enough." Or "You need to own more than one set of sheets and change them at least every other week but preferably once a week." And "I do not feel comfortable at your place because it is unpleasant to even to to the washroom. I understand this might be a sensitive topic but it is important that I explain how bad it makes me feel to be in such a dirty place. It makes me feel like spending time alone together is not as important to you as it is for you to continue not cleaning. I am unhappy."
I also think that this might cause you to examine the relationship closely. If this is how he handles his life... that doesn't bode well. Our home is our sanctuary. What does it say about how he values himself to be willing to live in such squalor? And it is not your job to save him from himself. He is an adult and he can act as such, whether he is busy or has anxiety or whatever. Part of being an adult is treating yourself and your loved ones with respect by not asking any of them to live in filth and to prize laziness over basic hygiene.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Now he might not understand that it bothers you (I don't know how since the situation sounds pretty bad). So saying things like "your towels smell and need to be soaked in vinegar to remove the mildew smell. Washing isn't enough." Or "You need to own more than one set of sheets and change them at least every other week but preferably once a week." And "I do not feel comfortable at your place because it is unpleasant to even to to the washroom. I understand this might be a sensitive topic but it is important that I explain how bad it makes me feel to be in such a dirty place. It makes me feel like spending time alone together is not as important to you as it is for you to continue not cleaning. I am unhappy."
I also think that this might cause you to examine the relationship closely. If this is how he handles his life... that doesn't bode well. Our home is our sanctuary. What does it say about how he values himself to be willing to live in such squalor? And it is not your job to save him from himself. He is an adult and he can act as such, whether he is busy or has anxiety or whatever. Part of being an adult is treating yourself and your loved ones with respect by not asking any of them to live in filth and to prize laziness over basic hygiene.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Hey, X, I know you're busy and this might seem like a silly thing to get worked up over, but the dirty apartment is really bothering me. It makes me feel like I'm lower on the totem pole, beneath cleaning, or that my needs and feelings aren't that important in comparison, and I know you wouldn't do that on purpose, but that's just how it makes me feel! And this is important to me, and will still be in the foreseeable future.
It's not silly! The house is too gross for you to visit and people in this thread are telling you that what tou want out of a SOs space is normal, not extreme. I sometimes like to help myself with these things to try to imagine what a normative expectation would be. Like, hey having magazines all over the place or even a few dishes in the sink or some clothes on the floor... That's normal, within the range of normal behavior. If you said "I don't want to see your socks on the floor" that would be silly. I think you are doing your guy no favors to not point out that he clearly seems to be having some trouble getting it together. Whether the house is a mess b/c he's not handling his anxiery or whether it's a mess b/c he sort of doesn't care what you think is sort of a second level issue to the main point which is the house is gross, you won't come over and that's his issue to manage.
Additionally, normative behaviour towards partners who are unhappy/uncomfortable (within reasonable levels) is like Squeak Attack outlines above.... They want you to be happy, they want to keep snugglingwith you, they will try to handle things. This is so far from the response that you are getting that something else is going on.
I know it can sometimes seem hard to just dump something in someone's lap and say "handle this" but in short, this guy is not handling this. He needs to make a decision. He can choose to live like this and you can not come over, or he can pick from a list of options (hire a cleaner, do it himself, let you do it) to remediate the situation. However the "do nothing" choice that he is currently making is a non-starter and will result in the eventual end of the relationship.
posted by jessamyn at 8:22 AM on October 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's not silly! The house is too gross for you to visit and people in this thread are telling you that what tou want out of a SOs space is normal, not extreme. I sometimes like to help myself with these things to try to imagine what a normative expectation would be. Like, hey having magazines all over the place or even a few dishes in the sink or some clothes on the floor... That's normal, within the range of normal behavior. If you said "I don't want to see your socks on the floor" that would be silly. I think you are doing your guy no favors to not point out that he clearly seems to be having some trouble getting it together. Whether the house is a mess b/c he's not handling his anxiery or whether it's a mess b/c he sort of doesn't care what you think is sort of a second level issue to the main point which is the house is gross, you won't come over and that's his issue to manage.
Additionally, normative behaviour towards partners who are unhappy/uncomfortable (within reasonable levels) is like Squeak Attack outlines above.... They want you to be happy, they want to keep snugglingwith you, they will try to handle things. This is so far from the response that you are getting that something else is going on.
I know it can sometimes seem hard to just dump something in someone's lap and say "handle this" but in short, this guy is not handling this. He needs to make a decision. He can choose to live like this and you can not come over, or he can pick from a list of options (hire a cleaner, do it himself, let you do it) to remediate the situation. However the "do nothing" choice that he is currently making is a non-starter and will result in the eventual end of the relationship.
posted by jessamyn at 8:22 AM on October 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
Best answer: Your script feels so submissive, placating, and deferential. And I totally get it: it's important to you to have this conversation in a way that doesn't immediately put him on the defensive. But at the same time, it feels like you are being so sensitive to his emotional needs when his behavior around this situation isn't showing much sensitivity to yours.
You're bothered because you feel like he thinks you don't deserve a cleaner, more welcoming environment. (Like, he'd clean for the roommates but not for you.) But when you say things like "This might be a silly thing to get worked up over," it makes me wonder if part of you doesn't really believe you deserve it either.
And you do. You deserve to have a space where you can feel relaxed and at home. You deserve to have your emotional needs taken seriously. You deserve sensitivity and respect. You deserve a partner who will make every effort to pull the same weight that you do, both on the basic chores of living (like cleaning towels and sheets) and the mutual respect and care that makes a relationship work.
So please don't go into that conversation feeling like you're being unreasonable, or asking for some huge favor, or you know, just being a big old meanie or something. You're totally not. You're just asking for the same care you offer him -- and you absolutely deserve that.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 8:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [35 favorites]
You're bothered because you feel like he thinks you don't deserve a cleaner, more welcoming environment. (Like, he'd clean for the roommates but not for you.) But when you say things like "This might be a silly thing to get worked up over," it makes me wonder if part of you doesn't really believe you deserve it either.
And you do. You deserve to have a space where you can feel relaxed and at home. You deserve to have your emotional needs taken seriously. You deserve sensitivity and respect. You deserve a partner who will make every effort to pull the same weight that you do, both on the basic chores of living (like cleaning towels and sheets) and the mutual respect and care that makes a relationship work.
So please don't go into that conversation feeling like you're being unreasonable, or asking for some huge favor, or you know, just being a big old meanie or something. You're totally not. You're just asking for the same care you offer him -- and you absolutely deserve that.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 8:26 AM on October 11, 2015 [35 favorites]
This is gross hazardous filth and you are not at all unreasonable or silly in not wanting to deal with this gross hazardous filth. It IS usually fairly easy to take care of if you do it in small steps, though.
I totally agree with everyone who is saying that you shouldn't be responsible for doing it yourself, but I also know enough people like your boyfriend to know that it simply WILL NOT EVER GET DONE if you leave it up to him. If you can encourage him to hire a cleaner that would be the best long-term situation, but if that's not financially possible then the only thing I can think of is (short of breaking up with him, which i do not think is unreasonable but ymmv) is for you to say "I am coming over this weekend and we are going to clean one room of the apartment. we will do the same thing the following weekend, and the following one, until your house is livable." If he doesn't participate in this or refuses to even consider it then ugh just dump his crusty ass.
and yeah, the fact that he would clean for a roommate but not for you sounds pretty shitty.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:41 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I totally agree with everyone who is saying that you shouldn't be responsible for doing it yourself, but I also know enough people like your boyfriend to know that it simply WILL NOT EVER GET DONE if you leave it up to him. If you can encourage him to hire a cleaner that would be the best long-term situation, but if that's not financially possible then the only thing I can think of is (short of breaking up with him, which i do not think is unreasonable but ymmv) is for you to say "I am coming over this weekend and we are going to clean one room of the apartment. we will do the same thing the following weekend, and the following one, until your house is livable." If he doesn't participate in this or refuses to even consider it then ugh just dump his crusty ass.
and yeah, the fact that he would clean for a roommate but not for you sounds pretty shitty.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:41 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
If he is working all these extra hours, some of that extra pay should be set aside for cleaners.
Be blunt, and help him with an action plan. Outline your needs - explaining you'd love some awesome alone time.
He's probably as good at ignoring your roommates' discomfort as much as your own. He may be "sensitive" but a lot of the time that's a front for "doesn't want to be bothered".
posted by TenaciousB at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Be blunt, and help him with an action plan. Outline your needs - explaining you'd love some awesome alone time.
He's probably as good at ignoring your roommates' discomfort as much as your own. He may be "sensitive" but a lot of the time that's a front for "doesn't want to be bothered".
posted by TenaciousB at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Here is what I would do if I were in your situation. One, I would talk to bf and agree that the place needs to be cleaner for you both to be there. Two, I would suggest that in order to establish a baseline amount of clean, that you hire cleaners one time, now, to clean up the place and get it to a level that might be at the top of an acceptable range. Then, as an ongoing venture, maybe either both of you agree to put in an hour together once a week cleaning the kitchen and bathroom and doing laundry or you establish some sort of baseline whereby when it reaches a certain level of disarray, he cleans or you both clean. Have a range of acceptableness so that he does not feel it has to be perfect all the time. Set standards like dirty dishes must be cleaned every two days or some low, but reasonable hurdle.
posted by AugustWest at 9:21 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 9:21 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
You are not willing to be at his house because it is so dirty. That is pretty darn clear. I honestly feel like your original post listed a lot of ways that you have really plainly communicated your boundaries. This really is not remotely on you at this point.
You also do not have to put up with him bringing any grossness into your house. Not getting dirt on other people's furniture is just common courtesy. "You need to change into PJ's before you get into bed" is a perfectly fine thing to say. I know it feels hard to start saying these things when you may not have previously stood up for your needs, but if you want the relationship to survive (and also, frankly, your boyfriend, whose health is in danger, to survive) this is the most important action you can take.
posted by chaiminda at 9:24 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
You also do not have to put up with him bringing any grossness into your house. Not getting dirt on other people's furniture is just common courtesy. "You need to change into PJ's before you get into bed" is a perfectly fine thing to say. I know it feels hard to start saying these things when you may not have previously stood up for your needs, but if you want the relationship to survive (and also, frankly, your boyfriend, whose health is in danger, to survive) this is the most important action you can take.
posted by chaiminda at 9:24 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He may have executive impairment, meaning that he has no idea where to start, especially since he is so tired from the long hours he works that he has little brain left for problem solving.
In my experience when people live like that it is a matter of can't clean not won't clean.
I liked the idea above that you set simple conditions for coming over - tell him to put a load of laundry on, change the sheets and make sure you have a clean towel. If he agrees you can come over.
You might also make a date with him where the both of you can work on his overdue house chores - and then the next time he comes to your house and you do some other kind of work together, such as putting up your double windows. I enjoy working with people very much. It's much more fun than just hanging out. A date that involves one of you washing and one of you drying the dishes might actually be enjoyable for both of you.
Another useful rule for the aggravatingly under functioning person in your life is to calculate how much you love him in terms of time. Do you love him enough to give him ten free minutes of effort? Three minutes? Three minutes is enough to to squirt cleaner in the toilet, wipe it down with paper towel, then the brush and flush it. Maybe you love him enough to bring your own towel when you visit and do that one chore and you won't resent it. Or maybe you love him ten minutes worth and could also change his sheets assuming he has clean ones... or maybe you don't. You might not even love him one minute's worth of cleaning up after him. The whole point of this is to figure out where you would start to resent cleaning his stuff for your own convenience and not exceeding your tolerance.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:44 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
In my experience when people live like that it is a matter of can't clean not won't clean.
I liked the idea above that you set simple conditions for coming over - tell him to put a load of laundry on, change the sheets and make sure you have a clean towel. If he agrees you can come over.
You might also make a date with him where the both of you can work on his overdue house chores - and then the next time he comes to your house and you do some other kind of work together, such as putting up your double windows. I enjoy working with people very much. It's much more fun than just hanging out. A date that involves one of you washing and one of you drying the dishes might actually be enjoyable for both of you.
Another useful rule for the aggravatingly under functioning person in your life is to calculate how much you love him in terms of time. Do you love him enough to give him ten free minutes of effort? Three minutes? Three minutes is enough to to squirt cleaner in the toilet, wipe it down with paper towel, then the brush and flush it. Maybe you love him enough to bring your own towel when you visit and do that one chore and you won't resent it. Or maybe you love him ten minutes worth and could also change his sheets assuming he has clean ones... or maybe you don't. You might not even love him one minute's worth of cleaning up after him. The whole point of this is to figure out where you would start to resent cleaning his stuff for your own convenience and not exceeding your tolerance.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:44 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't love your script. I have a spouse who has serious cleaning issues. It has threatened to wreck our lives. The less direct I have been about it, the worse it has been.
1. It is not about how much you love him.
2. It is not about how much he loves you.
3. It is a serious issue that is impacting your quality of life with him.
4. It is also a serious issue for him, but it's his issue.
My advice is do not move in with him possibly ever, but also be really clear about your feelings in the moment. Not meanly, not taking over managing what he should clean. That looks like this:
Him: Want to come over?
You: I do, but the last time I was there I had to wipe mould off the toilet seat and worry about whether I got spores in my lungs and also I felt gross and dirty and it was really unsexy.
Him: Want to go to your place?
You: No. I feel really torn because I want to see you so much, but we were at my place last night and then I feel awkward with my roommates for several days. I am actually feeling really sad and frustrated that you aren't addressing the cleaning issue. I guess we could go for a walk together, but otherwise I am heading home. I don't feel great about it.
Or
You: I have crumbs on my butt and it makes me feel grossed out, unsexy, and like I have a choice between accepting your version of okay, which is really really far off most people's okay for their beds and regardless not at all okay for me, or leaving. I feel so upset about it my toes are numb and I am getting a neck ache from the tension.
Him: It's just crumbs
You: I know that for you they are. But for me, this is how I am feeling right now and I am not sure what to do about it. I would like to have a shower and think about it but it's black. I think I will have to go home now.
Stay with your real feelings, without saying "you are a slob" etc. and give him the chance to really hear the actual true impact of his choice not to address this.
The time to decide to support him in his ADHD/whatever/whatever is when he says he thinks he has a problem and can you help. Not to decide he does and then pussyfoot around him. That creates a fake little bubble world for him that is toxic for your relationship and really for his ability to see the world for what it is.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [28 favorites]
1. It is not about how much you love him.
2. It is not about how much he loves you.
3. It is a serious issue that is impacting your quality of life with him.
4. It is also a serious issue for him, but it's his issue.
My advice is do not move in with him possibly ever, but also be really clear about your feelings in the moment. Not meanly, not taking over managing what he should clean. That looks like this:
Him: Want to come over?
You: I do, but the last time I was there I had to wipe mould off the toilet seat and worry about whether I got spores in my lungs and also I felt gross and dirty and it was really unsexy.
Him: Want to go to your place?
You: No. I feel really torn because I want to see you so much, but we were at my place last night and then I feel awkward with my roommates for several days. I am actually feeling really sad and frustrated that you aren't addressing the cleaning issue. I guess we could go for a walk together, but otherwise I am heading home. I don't feel great about it.
Or
You: I have crumbs on my butt and it makes me feel grossed out, unsexy, and like I have a choice between accepting your version of okay, which is really really far off most people's okay for their beds and regardless not at all okay for me, or leaving. I feel so upset about it my toes are numb and I am getting a neck ache from the tension.
Him: It's just crumbs
You: I know that for you they are. But for me, this is how I am feeling right now and I am not sure what to do about it. I would like to have a shower and think about it but it's black. I think I will have to go home now.
Stay with your real feelings, without saying "you are a slob" etc. and give him the chance to really hear the actual true impact of his choice not to address this.
The time to decide to support him in his ADHD/whatever/whatever is when he says he thinks he has a problem and can you help. Not to decide he does and then pussyfoot around him. That creates a fake little bubble world for him that is toxic for your relationship and really for his ability to see the world for what it is.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [28 favorites]
I don't get why you seem so willing to tie yourself in knots placating him and dancing around this issue when he can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes changing his sheets, swirling toilet bowl in the cleaner, and wiping down the tub every week. Let him do his own frigging labor, physical AND emotional.
posted by zug at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by zug at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [36 favorites]
The thing about compromise is that it's a two way street.
"I want to come see you and spend time with you. Your apartment is a terrible mess. I will not be coming over until that changes. I recognize that you work very hard and you're dealing with anxiety and that's not easy. And at the same time, I need you to make an effort so we can have private time together."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:37 AM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
"I want to come see you and spend time with you. Your apartment is a terrible mess. I will not be coming over until that changes. I recognize that you work very hard and you're dealing with anxiety and that's not easy. And at the same time, I need you to make an effort so we can have private time together."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:37 AM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
He's also given me the reply of "Well, I'm living by myself for the first time now, but if I had a roommate (or I lived with him I guess) I would feel obligated to clean more often and keep the place nice." Which is true now that I think about it, the missing roommate for the past few months has correlated with the decline of the apartments cleanliness.
So given that people usually have a set level of clean, I'm guessing that the reason it's gotten dirtier is because the roommate was the one actually cleaning.
You are not his mommy or his housekeeper. It's not your job to make his living space habitable unless you choose to take it on. If you do, know it will be your job for the term of your relationship.
Do you actually want to be his mommy/unpaid housekeeper?
posted by winna at 11:37 AM on October 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
So given that people usually have a set level of clean, I'm guessing that the reason it's gotten dirtier is because the roommate was the one actually cleaning.
You are not his mommy or his housekeeper. It's not your job to make his living space habitable unless you choose to take it on. If you do, know it will be your job for the term of your relationship.
Do you actually want to be his mommy/unpaid housekeeper?
posted by winna at 11:37 AM on October 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
Not in a mean, nasty, withholding way, but in a facts-of-life horny way, can you specifically relate it to "alone time"? (Assuming you aren't spending alone time holding hands...forgive me if I misconstrue.)
"Baby, I love you, I'm hot for you, but it's really hard for me to get into it if x, y, and z aren't done. I can let the following [...] go, but I need need need clean sheets and towels in order to get in the mood. How can we make this happen?"
posted by 8603 at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2015
"Baby, I love you, I'm hot for you, but it's really hard for me to get into it if x, y, and z aren't done. I can let the following [...] go, but I need need need clean sheets and towels in order to get in the mood. How can we make this happen?"
posted by 8603 at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2015
I would strongly advise you not to quantify your love in terms of time spent doing his chores for him. The way to Hell is paved with good intentions. This is not how love works. That is not love. That is something else entirely, perhaps codependency coupled with martyrdom. I don't know, but what I do know is that if you start thinking about it this way it will lead you down a bad path. It's a short step from "do I love him enough to spend three minutes brushing out his toilet bowl" to "if he loved me why wouldn't he just do this his darn self?"
Tying the concept of love to chores is a really bad idea.
posted by sockermom at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Tying the concept of love to chores is a really bad idea.
posted by sockermom at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: ok, last question, and then I'm off. Obviously, I need to talk to him. I usually feel bad springing these things out of the blue, but bringing this up (minus the "we need to talk") randomly is fine, right? I don't have to wait until he invites me over again to talk about how this truly bothers me? It felt like a strange issue to bring up since it didn't fall on the normal relationship scale to me (but now I realize, it's normal and worth talking way more about.)
posted by buttonedup at 12:56 PM on October 11, 2015
posted by buttonedup at 12:56 PM on October 11, 2015
It's fine to bring this up at a time that suits you, yes. There does not need to be anything specific happening: this is something that's been bothering you for a while, and that's reason enough. And you are right: this is a very normal type of conversation to be having inside a relationship.
It may be awkward, it may not be fun, but it is, like you say, worth it.
Good luck, I hope it works out well!
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:02 PM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
It may be awkward, it may not be fun, but it is, like you say, worth it.
Good luck, I hope it works out well!
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:02 PM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I would venture it's better to bring it up ASAP - you will be more calm about it and it won't be in the moment when you are deciding to go over there or not. If you bring it up when he asks you over its too easy for him to say "can I do that next time, I don't have time right now." If you talk to him now, he knows he has some work to do *before* he even asks you over next time.
posted by like_neon at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Everyone has different standards of cleanliness but most of us nonetheless really enjoy a clean place. You say he has anxiety - a through deep clean (by paid cleaners) might ease that for him a bit so that you can have these discussions. I bet he'd find it soothing and relaxing to have his place look cleaner, even if he wouldn't usually describe that as a 'must have'.
I work long hours and am permanently exhausted and can get really slack about doing dishes. It's much easier to start with a really clean slate (pun sort of intended) and then work on the regular habits. Otherwise it's just endless work to achieve merely "not dirty" rather than "sparkling clean".
Maybe you could help him find a company that could do a one off deep clean and then you guys can work on the ongoing routines later? It takes a lot longer to un-do a glorious deep clean than it does regular lick and a promise cleans.
posted by kitten magic at 3:59 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I work long hours and am permanently exhausted and can get really slack about doing dishes. It's much easier to start with a really clean slate (pun sort of intended) and then work on the regular habits. Otherwise it's just endless work to achieve merely "not dirty" rather than "sparkling clean".
Maybe you could help him find a company that could do a one off deep clean and then you guys can work on the ongoing routines later? It takes a lot longer to un-do a glorious deep clean than it does regular lick and a promise cleans.
posted by kitten magic at 3:59 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just to add to the perspective others have also given on here, I'd categorize my husband and I as both on the "pretty messy" side of any clean-to-messy spectrum out there. Before we met, I lived by myself, with cats, and went through a pretty bad anxiety-depression spiral for about a year where I was extremely neglectful of basic housekeeping.
Despite this, I have never had a shower or toilet get so moldy they turn black (!) inside and our bed still manages to be dirt- and crumb-free. This is not "messy", it's very, very gross and you should feel SUPER okay bringing up your hesitations with no apologies. You do not need to feel bad about your reaction to what sounds like a really icky situation.
posted by augustimagination at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Despite this, I have never had a shower or toilet get so moldy they turn black (!) inside and our bed still manages to be dirt- and crumb-free. This is not "messy", it's very, very gross and you should feel SUPER okay bringing up your hesitations with no apologies. You do not need to feel bad about your reaction to what sounds like a really icky situation.
posted by augustimagination at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a DTMFA situation because unless you are going to hire a maid for him your whole life, how is your relationship going to progress? I'm a slob and jeebus, I'm not this bad. The dirtiest places I can think of (including one where I literally turned and walked out upon entering so I didn't puke from the smell) weren't this bad, and he refuses to do jack shit? I don't care about his late nights or his "anxiety," that's unhealthy and you're going to end up being his mom and maid, period.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
This question makes me sad for you because you are asking us how to tell him something that you already told him and he chose to do nothing about. Instead, he turned it around on you, blaming you by saying he never cleans because you never come over. This was a shitty move on his part, more worrying than the mess, and I wouldn't be surprised if he takes this tack again.
I think you probably communicated all of this very well before. It sounds like you think the relationship is worth attempting once more to communicate how important it is to you, and I commend you, and I hope you see a result this time, but you're veering into self-blame saying "half" of this is on you. No. His tub isn't black because you weren't emphatic enough. I mean, you told him you don't like coming over, more than once, because of the state of his place, and that didn't spur him into anything but blame and excuses.
BTW, I'm sympathetic to messy, tired, anxious, depressed people. In my darkest days I let my place get to a state where I would not let anyone come over (nothing ever turned black and there was never food out, though, but who am I to judge.) The difference was that I'd never expect someone I cared about to put up with the gross state of things and I did a big clean whenever I was expecting anyone. So for me this isn't so much about the mess but about respect.
posted by kapers at 12:19 PM on October 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
I think you probably communicated all of this very well before. It sounds like you think the relationship is worth attempting once more to communicate how important it is to you, and I commend you, and I hope you see a result this time, but you're veering into self-blame saying "half" of this is on you. No. His tub isn't black because you weren't emphatic enough. I mean, you told him you don't like coming over, more than once, because of the state of his place, and that didn't spur him into anything but blame and excuses.
BTW, I'm sympathetic to messy, tired, anxious, depressed people. In my darkest days I let my place get to a state where I would not let anyone come over (nothing ever turned black and there was never food out, though, but who am I to judge.) The difference was that I'd never expect someone I cared about to put up with the gross state of things and I did a big clean whenever I was expecting anyone. So for me this isn't so much about the mess but about respect.
posted by kapers at 12:19 PM on October 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
Some places have water that just grows a ton of algae, which creates black toilets and I guess black tubs (also black washing machines). I had a friend who had such a place once, he was super clean in general but he basically cleaned the toilets every other day. Personally I prefer to fight the situation with money rather than time. The toilet needs to be cleaned thoroughly and then those "every flush" chemical tablets go into the tank and a calendar reminder gets set to replace them when they run out. He will still have to clean the toilet occasionally (or hire someone to, that's perfectly valid) but it will be less bad.
posted by anaelith at 1:43 PM on October 12, 2015
posted by anaelith at 1:43 PM on October 12, 2015
Best answer: If you haven't read the emotional labor thread, I recommend it. That said, it is huge, so I will distill down the one thing that I think is relevant to you here:
It's not on you to figure out the magic conversation key to get him to clean his place to basic standards. It's on him to maintain basic standards if he wants you around.
We're often told that if we just ask nicely, we'll get what we want. So we ask. And we get blown off, so we ask a different way, and a slightly different way after that - and then get accused of either not being direct, or of being a nag.
No. There is no more asking, you asked nicely, he blew you off. Now there is just directness, the way warriorqueen described above. Seriously, one of the best things I did for my marriage was start being direct. If he does have depression or anxiety, directness is actually really helpful. I know it seems counterintuitive, but when you're having issues separating out reality from your brain messing with you, it's easier if people are direct. Not mean, but direct. Mean is "OMG YOU FREAKING SLOB". Direct is any one of the above scripts you've been given, like "I can't get in the mood for sex in a dirty bed. Please wash the sheets before you invite me over." Directness can feel scary as hell, especially if you've been trained to niceness your whole life. But it is so, so worth it.
posted by RogueTech at 8:26 PM on October 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
It's not on you to figure out the magic conversation key to get him to clean his place to basic standards. It's on him to maintain basic standards if he wants you around.
We're often told that if we just ask nicely, we'll get what we want. So we ask. And we get blown off, so we ask a different way, and a slightly different way after that - and then get accused of either not being direct, or of being a nag.
No. There is no more asking, you asked nicely, he blew you off. Now there is just directness, the way warriorqueen described above. Seriously, one of the best things I did for my marriage was start being direct. If he does have depression or anxiety, directness is actually really helpful. I know it seems counterintuitive, but when you're having issues separating out reality from your brain messing with you, it's easier if people are direct. Not mean, but direct. Mean is "OMG YOU FREAKING SLOB". Direct is any one of the above scripts you've been given, like "I can't get in the mood for sex in a dirty bed. Please wash the sheets before you invite me over." Directness can feel scary as hell, especially if you've been trained to niceness your whole life. But it is so, so worth it.
posted by RogueTech at 8:26 PM on October 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
When I first started dating my husband, his apartment was... appalling isn't a strong enough word. It was HORRIBLE. Filthy dishes in the kitchen, food left out for his roommate's cat for so long that there were maggots in it, just... oh my God, awful. (He's lucky that I really liked him, or I'd have run screaming for the hills.) He knew it was bad, but he had such deep untreated depression that he just couldn't muster up the energy to do anything about it. And felt like he didn't deserve to live in a nice clean place. (And his roommate contributed to the horror a LOT, it wasn't just him.)
He got treatment for the depression, and, while he still tends toward messiness, it's nowhere near as bad. And honestly, my being very direct about it was the kick in the pants he needed to get it together -- I told him that his apartment was beyond awful, and that I could NOT live like that. (I was too shocked to be gentle about it, really -- I think I screamed when I saw the kitchen.)
posted by sarcasticah at 8:58 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
He got treatment for the depression, and, while he still tends toward messiness, it's nowhere near as bad. And honestly, my being very direct about it was the kick in the pants he needed to get it together -- I told him that his apartment was beyond awful, and that I could NOT live like that. (I was too shocked to be gentle about it, really -- I think I screamed when I saw the kitchen.)
posted by sarcasticah at 8:58 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I go to his apartment to get some alone time and not bother my roommates
Get an apartment by yourself. It might mean higher rent, longer commute, smaller living space, etc. But it's not up to your partner to provide this. If he then starts coming to your house regularly, he can help you clean.
posted by SassHat at 9:48 AM on October 15, 2015
Get an apartment by yourself. It might mean higher rent, longer commute, smaller living space, etc. But it's not up to your partner to provide this. If he then starts coming to your house regularly, he can help you clean.
posted by SassHat at 9:48 AM on October 15, 2015
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"Well, you don't come over anymore, so I don't clean anymore. If you came over more, I would clean." This isn't true.
The ball's in his court.
posted by Linnee at 1:20 AM on October 11, 2015 [28 favorites]