How to Determine My Property Line (and violation thereof)
October 7, 2015 12:41 PM Subscribe
They're building a house next door, RIGHT on my property line (as I loosely understand it to be; I don't have charts). Assuming I should double-check the specifics, who can I hire to do this legwork?
Next door had been a vacant woodland. They've torn down trees I thought were on my property, and now they're setting the foundation at the extreme edge closest to my house. Right on the line, if not over it. I'm not 100% sure where that line is, and I don't have a survey chart (I looked for one once, and only found an old, vague one...I'm in a 100 year old house)
What's my move? Even if I found a good chart, I wouldn't know how to make sense of it. I wouldn't relish having to file a lawsuit, but I suppose I do need to check this out (actually, should have done that weeks ago).
Is there anyone I can hire to do a one-stop-shopping of all these tasks for me, and give me a resolute answer? I'm in Westchester County, NY.
Next door had been a vacant woodland. They've torn down trees I thought were on my property, and now they're setting the foundation at the extreme edge closest to my house. Right on the line, if not over it. I'm not 100% sure where that line is, and I don't have a survey chart (I looked for one once, and only found an old, vague one...I'm in a 100 year old house)
What's my move? Even if I found a good chart, I wouldn't know how to make sense of it. I wouldn't relish having to file a lawsuit, but I suppose I do need to check this out (actually, should have done that weeks ago).
Is there anyone I can hire to do a one-stop-shopping of all these tasks for me, and give me a resolute answer? I'm in Westchester County, NY.
You need to hire a land surveyor.
posted by futureisunwritten at 12:51 PM on October 7, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by futureisunwritten at 12:51 PM on October 7, 2015 [21 favorites]
You should first call your town's building inspector / zoning board to ask about permits that were pulled, if any. They would not have been issued a permit if they did not have the proper setbacks or variances and if they had to appeal for a variance you should have been notified. To get a permit they would have had to submit plans including a lot sketch and you should be able to see these. This will let you know where THEY think the lines are.
If there is no permit then the inspector should be able to put an immediate stop to the work.
Google around for "surveying", "lot surveying" or "lot staking" in your area. It's a good idea to have one anyway. It will probably cost you a few hundred to a couple thousand to get it done.
You might need a lawyer eventually if there are property line disputes.
I'm not a contractor, lawyer, or anybody but I did get a house built and had to jump through some hoops to do it, though there were no property line disputes. My knowledge is based only on what I went through in my town.
posted by bondcliff at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2015 [29 favorites]
If there is no permit then the inspector should be able to put an immediate stop to the work.
Google around for "surveying", "lot surveying" or "lot staking" in your area. It's a good idea to have one anyway. It will probably cost you a few hundred to a couple thousand to get it done.
You might need a lawyer eventually if there are property line disputes.
I'm not a contractor, lawyer, or anybody but I did get a house built and had to jump through some hoops to do it, though there were no property line disputes. My knowledge is based only on what I went through in my town.
posted by bondcliff at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2015 [29 favorites]
Your first step is going to be to hire a licensed surveyor. Google surveyor in your county (I just did that and found a few, but you should probably check prices and reviews). Their job is to survey the property, stake the boundaries, and provide you with the actual legal dimensions of your property -- they'll know how to navigate everything and explain it to you. They might also be able to tell you if there are any laws in your county pertaining to this situation.
If the neighboring property is over your property line, or is closer to the lot line than legally allowed, then it'd be time to engage an attorney who specializes in property/real estate and provide them with the information your surveyor provided to you.
posted by erst at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
If the neighboring property is over your property line, or is closer to the lot line than legally allowed, then it'd be time to engage an attorney who specializes in property/real estate and provide them with the information your surveyor provided to you.
posted by erst at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nthing getting a licensed land surveyor, and quick. Once they show you the legal boundary of your property, you can take that to your neighbor. But stopping your neighbor from continuing this project, if it in fact encroaches on your property, may require getting a lawyer involved.
posted by hootenatty at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by hootenatty at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2015
1) Visit the the relevant gov't zoning office immediately - municipal or county. They will inform you of your rights as the adjacent property owner. It may even be online. This will include information about setbacks, trees, subadjacent rights (like if they dig a basement), etc.
2) Construction requires permits. Check with the relevant building code office. They can also inform you of your rights as an adjacent property owner as well as check to see if the right permits have been issued. The construction site may also have a billboard of some sort displaying an address, company, permits, etc.
3) Hire a surveyor to survey your property. But first, many places require a survey for new construction - it's quite possible they did that and have it on file at the zoning or permit office, which will allow you to see what kind of survey markers they have. If they're building over the property line, then you can get the work stopped.
4) If you find their survey and think it's super wrong, don't despair - hire a surveyor and be prepared to hire a real estate lawyer. Property boundary disputes are common.
posted by barchan at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
2) Construction requires permits. Check with the relevant building code office. They can also inform you of your rights as an adjacent property owner as well as check to see if the right permits have been issued. The construction site may also have a billboard of some sort displaying an address, company, permits, etc.
3) Hire a surveyor to survey your property. But first, many places require a survey for new construction - it's quite possible they did that and have it on file at the zoning or permit office, which will allow you to see what kind of survey markers they have. If they're building over the property line, then you can get the work stopped.
4) If you find their survey and think it's super wrong, don't despair - hire a surveyor and be prepared to hire a real estate lawyer. Property boundary disputes are common.
posted by barchan at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not sure where you live, but the County in Michigan where I live has a website with property boundaries and you can overlay satellite photos.
For my purposes, I can see my lot line runs right to s big oak tree that is in the satellite puc and still growing at the edge of my lot.
Call a surveyor yes, but also maybe Google up plat maps, property boundaries for your county.
posted by bricksNmortar at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
For my purposes, I can see my lot line runs right to s big oak tree that is in the satellite puc and still growing at the edge of my lot.
Call a surveyor yes, but also maybe Google up plat maps, property boundaries for your county.
posted by bricksNmortar at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Surveyor tried to sell me on a complete map job. I told him I just want a simple yes/no on the question of this guy encroaching on my property (the other three sides of my property are well established, and I don't expect to ever add anything). He'll look at data available to him and call me in the morning.
As for checking permits, it's a pretty uptight county; I can't imagine they didn't pull proper permits, but I guess I could check....not that I'd even know what to look for. This stuff isn't my forte, and I'd have preferred an all-in-one solution.
Barcham: #3 sounds important, but also a really excellent example of something I'm utterly incapable of interpreting/pursuing on my own.
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:20 PM on October 7, 2015
As for checking permits, it's a pretty uptight county; I can't imagine they didn't pull proper permits, but I guess I could check....not that I'd even know what to look for. This stuff isn't my forte, and I'd have preferred an all-in-one solution.
Barcham: #3 sounds important, but also a really excellent example of something I'm utterly incapable of interpreting/pursuing on my own.
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:20 PM on October 7, 2015
As for checking permits, it's a pretty uptight county; I can't imagine they didn't pull proper permits
Even if she has a permit she could have submitted an incorrect plot plan. Don't assume anything. Maybe the contractor and the inspector are cousins. Shit happens all the time in even the most uptight of towns.
The permit should be displayed somewhere on the job site. It should have the name and number of the person who issued it. They are the one you need to speak to. It will cost you nothing to call that person and say "Hey, um, I'm pretty sure this house is being built either on my property or too close to it and I'd like someone to assure me this is not the case."
If you can't find or access the permit just call the town hall main number and ask them who you should speak to.
This is not something you want to let go. If you are right and you do nothing you are basically forfeiting property to your neighbor. This can have bigger consequences than just having a house too close or losing a few square feet of property. Trust me, I became somewhat of an expert on what lacking a few square feet can mean.
posted by bondcliff at 1:28 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
Even if she has a permit she could have submitted an incorrect plot plan. Don't assume anything. Maybe the contractor and the inspector are cousins. Shit happens all the time in even the most uptight of towns.
The permit should be displayed somewhere on the job site. It should have the name and number of the person who issued it. They are the one you need to speak to. It will cost you nothing to call that person and say "Hey, um, I'm pretty sure this house is being built either on my property or too close to it and I'd like someone to assure me this is not the case."
If you can't find or access the permit just call the town hall main number and ask them who you should speak to.
This is not something you want to let go. If you are right and you do nothing you are basically forfeiting property to your neighbor. This can have bigger consequences than just having a house too close or losing a few square feet of property. Trust me, I became somewhat of an expert on what lacking a few square feet can mean.
posted by bondcliff at 1:28 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can't imagine they didn't pull proper permits, but I guess I could check....not that I'd even know what to look for.
I mean, first just make sure they have ANY PERMIT AT ALL. You might be surprised by how brazen people can be. I have seen unpermitted work get started in moderately-chichi, dense neighborhoods.
posted by mskyle at 1:29 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I mean, first just make sure they have ANY PERMIT AT ALL. You might be surprised by how brazen people can be. I have seen unpermitted work get started in moderately-chichi, dense neighborhoods.
posted by mskyle at 1:29 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
While the "complete map job" sounds like a lot, you should be aware that in asking this question the surveyor will have to do a majority of the services just to answer your "yes/no". That is because the work requires a fair bit of research in old land records, finding what is called a "metes and bounds" and then starting from some established survey reference point, proceeding to your property and then proceeding around your property setting stakes and verifying that the set of legally described lines that define your property do in fact "close". That is, that the end point when traveling along them is the same as the start point. Depending on the size of your property it may be possible to only do some front portion of it, but understand that this apparently simple question does take a fair bit of legwork to get right.
That's all assuming the line is somewhere close to where the neighbor is building and that they (or you) are not off by large distances which make it obvious once the proper records are compiled.
And - don't assume that permits were pulled just because of where you live. It is astonishing what folks will do without getting the right permissions. Absolutely call the building inspector or whoever issues permits and just ask what they have on your neighbor's project.
posted by meinvt at 1:29 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's all assuming the line is somewhere close to where the neighbor is building and that they (or you) are not off by large distances which make it obvious once the proper records are compiled.
And - don't assume that permits were pulled just because of where you live. It is astonishing what folks will do without getting the right permissions. Absolutely call the building inspector or whoever issues permits and just ask what they have on your neighbor's project.
posted by meinvt at 1:29 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry if this sounds snarky, but if you feel like you are out of your depth, and this is important to you, then you need to hire an attorney (who may, in turn, hire a surveyor) to look into this for you. You're probably looking for an attorney who specializes in boundary disputes.
But, yeah, just calling the office that handles building code permits in your cit and saying "I'm interested in looking at the permits that have been issued for the new construction at [address]" will probably reveal quite a bit, even if you don't feel fully qualified to interpret the data. For instance, if they never got the proper permits (and that does happen, more often than you'd think) that will be a big deal right there. Even if there are permits, there will probably be a pretty-easy-to-interpret map that shows their boundaries.
posted by anastasiav at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2015
But, yeah, just calling the office that handles building code permits in your cit and saying "I'm interested in looking at the permits that have been issued for the new construction at [address]" will probably reveal quite a bit, even if you don't feel fully qualified to interpret the data. For instance, if they never got the proper permits (and that does happen, more often than you'd think) that will be a big deal right there. Even if there are permits, there will probably be a pretty-easy-to-interpret map that shows their boundaries.
posted by anastasiav at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2015
If this guy doesn't work out, tell any future surveyors that you want a boundary line survey.
There's a fair amount of legwork involved in this, he has to go out to the county (or whatever central document storage facility is appropriate) and get the legal property description, then come out and locate the markers (that are hopefully still there).
If the existing markers are missing, a surveyor will have to re-establish the markers from known control points, so you might not be able to get someone out there to look at it, and just say yes/no.
posted by hwyengr at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2015
There's a fair amount of legwork involved in this, he has to go out to the county (or whatever central document storage facility is appropriate) and get the legal property description, then come out and locate the markers (that are hopefully still there).
If the existing markers are missing, a surveyor will have to re-establish the markers from known control points, so you might not be able to get someone out there to look at it, and just say yes/no.
posted by hwyengr at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2015
I agree that you need a complete survey. The survey can put up stakes marking the property line. You don't want to let this go -- in many states the laws on adverse protection mean that your neighbor will actually get your property after a period of time (in Missouri it is 10 years).
You may also want to see if there is a plat map of the neighborhood.
If they are building on your land you can force them to remove the structure or grant them an easement.
posted by Ostara at 1:32 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
You may also want to see if there is a plat map of the neighborhood.
If they are building on your land you can force them to remove the structure or grant them an easement.
posted by Ostara at 1:32 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
As an immediate thing, you might just want to walk around where you think the corners of your property are and look for markers. They could be small concrete blocks, metal spikes, or some other small marker. They could be partially buried so you might have to dig around. If you find the line on that side it could instantly tell you how concerned you need to be.
Also, now is the time to react. Once they start actually digging and laying concrete it could get ugly.
It's possible the contractor laying out the foundation lines misread the plans or made another mistake. It would have told him where to lay out the foundation markers based on some distance to a benchmark. Could be a telephone pole or some other fixed object. Perhaps he screwed up. DO NOT WAIT ONE MORE MINUTE to check into this.
Sorry, I don't mean to flood this thread but I'm all but yelling at my screen here. Maybe I've misread your post and comments but you seem a bit relaxed about this. You shouldn't be.
posted by bondcliff at 1:34 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
Also, now is the time to react. Once they start actually digging and laying concrete it could get ugly.
It's possible the contractor laying out the foundation lines misread the plans or made another mistake. It would have told him where to lay out the foundation markers based on some distance to a benchmark. Could be a telephone pole or some other fixed object. Perhaps he screwed up. DO NOT WAIT ONE MORE MINUTE to check into this.
Sorry, I don't mean to flood this thread but I'm all but yelling at my screen here. Maybe I've misread your post and comments but you seem a bit relaxed about this. You shouldn't be.
posted by bondcliff at 1:34 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
Just to point out how convoluted this process can be, I worked on a big multi-state interstate highway project. Our surveyor had to write a 30 page technical memo discussing the legal location of the state line. Nobody could agree on the location of THE STATE LINE.
You may well end up needing a lawyer before too long.
posted by hwyengr at 1:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
You may well end up needing a lawyer before too long.
posted by hwyengr at 1:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, there should be metal pins marking the corners of your property. If you can borrow a metal detector, you may also be able to find them yourself.
You shouldn't be relaxed about this .... they will eventually get that section of your land through adverse possession if they're on your land and you let it go.
posted by Ostara at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2015
You shouldn't be relaxed about this .... they will eventually get that section of your land through adverse possession if they're on your land and you let it go.
posted by Ostara at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2015
I've worked in local government planning and platting for many years.
Do not hire a surveyor or lawyer yet. You do not have the information you need yet.
Check to see if your property has survey monuments set. If you can find your property corners you should be able to figure out where your property lines are.
Go to your local government planning / permitting office and see if there is a building permit for the house. If the house is permitted, there should be a survey plat with building plans. Most city / county governments have planners and building officials that review development plans and verify things like offsets from property lines. I believe these things are public record and should be accessible via a public records request.
Also, if you live in an area with zoning (which most urban areas in the US do, assuming you are in the US), different zones may have different property line setback requirements. Figure out what zone you're in and what those requirements are.
If your local government has a GIS website with aerial imagery and property lines, do not use that to determine where your property line is. GIS layers are not survey quality representations.
posted by Beardsley Klamm at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Do not hire a surveyor or lawyer yet. You do not have the information you need yet.
Check to see if your property has survey monuments set. If you can find your property corners you should be able to figure out where your property lines are.
Go to your local government planning / permitting office and see if there is a building permit for the house. If the house is permitted, there should be a survey plat with building plans. Most city / county governments have planners and building officials that review development plans and verify things like offsets from property lines. I believe these things are public record and should be accessible via a public records request.
Also, if you live in an area with zoning (which most urban areas in the US do, assuming you are in the US), different zones may have different property line setback requirements. Figure out what zone you're in and what those requirements are.
If your local government has a GIS website with aerial imagery and property lines, do not use that to determine where your property line is. GIS layers are not survey quality representations.
posted by Beardsley Klamm at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, all.
I have no way of borrowing a metal detector or using one if I had one, or of figuring out where the boundaries are even if I ever found the pins. This stuff is not my forte.
I'm trying to digest the other advice, though a lot of it is contradictory.
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:57 PM on October 7, 2015
I have no way of borrowing a metal detector or using one if I had one, or of figuring out where the boundaries are even if I ever found the pins. This stuff is not my forte.
I'm trying to digest the other advice, though a lot of it is contradictory.
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:57 PM on October 7, 2015
Here's Westchester County's GIS map, with markers for currently proposed development projects under review from the County Planning Board. If you zoom in really close, it shows red tax parcels lines. That might be a good starting point to research boundary lines, though it may not be definitive.
You can also do a county Land Records lookup. Might also prove helpful, depending on what information is available for your property.
I found both of those links on various pages from the Planning department's website. You may find other helpful links there as well.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can also do a county Land Records lookup. Might also prove helpful, depending on what information is available for your property.
I found both of those links on various pages from the Planning department's website. You may find other helpful links there as well.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I understand you feel out of your depth - this can be quite complicated. Several of us have suggested visiting the local planning/zoning office, and for good reason: they deal with people like you all the time. They can help you. Even if the help is marginal, you will have more information than you did before you started. And if you end up hiring a lawyer, the first thing they will ask you is if you've talked to the relevant offices yet.
Not all builders/developers/construction are bad people. But there are plenty out there who are willing to take or push advantage of people who don't do things like check with the permit office, or check what their rights are as adjacent property owners. It's a good first step. There's a possible range of outcomes from it, one of which is that you walk away with lots of information and having been educated for what you need to do next.
posted by barchan at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not all builders/developers/construction are bad people. But there are plenty out there who are willing to take or push advantage of people who don't do things like check with the permit office, or check what their rights are as adjacent property owners. It's a good first step. There's a possible range of outcomes from it, one of which is that you walk away with lots of information and having been educated for what you need to do next.
posted by barchan at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
One other bonus county link: Long shot, but if they really are over your property line, the builders aren't on this list of "unlicensed problematic home improvement contractors", are they?
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2015
Response by poster: I'll definitely go to the town building office tomorrow and learn what I can. The problem is that even a ton of really great, specific information (do they have permits? do they have a map?) will come down, at some point, to a judgement: in the real world (not the theoretical one of plans and maps), are they over my line? And I just don't know how to answer that.
posted by Quisp Lover at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by Quisp Lover at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2015
It's not a judgement, it's a measurement. One you don't know how to make. That's why you should hire someone who does: a surveyor.
posted by jon1270 at 2:06 PM on October 7, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 2:06 PM on October 7, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: The surveyor offered to draw me a map.
posted by Quisp Lover at 2:08 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by Quisp Lover at 2:08 PM on October 7, 2015
When you go the town office, you can also ask them what the legal requirements are for a set-back in your area. Then, when you get the information on your property line, you can measure if the edge of the building is far enough back from the line to comply. If not, you will know you are entitled to get this stopped. (Start with planning department and follow up with a lawyer) If it looks OK, you will need more help figuring out if you have the grounds to stop the construction.
posted by metahawk at 2:08 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by metahawk at 2:08 PM on October 7, 2015
The surveyor offered to draw me a map.
Because a drawing produced, stamped, and signed by a licensed surveyor can serve as legal evidence. Think you might need something like that soon? I do.
posted by LionIndex at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
Because a drawing produced, stamped, and signed by a licensed surveyor can serve as legal evidence. Think you might need something like that soon? I do.
posted by LionIndex at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
You can/should also ask the survey or to stake the corners of your lot, so you can go out and eyeball the property line (connect the dots between the markers)
posted by misterbrandt at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by misterbrandt at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
I work for local city government, but not yours. They should be able to explain things to you, and if they think it sounds like what you're describing taking place is an issue they'll go do a site visit and check it out. They don't expect you to be an expert, and it should be totay fine that this isn't your forte.
I have totally reviewed paperwork for folks who got plans approved and then built off plan with a dodgy certifier to do the periodic inspections during the construction phase. Everyone got in trouble!
posted by jrobin276 at 2:25 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have totally reviewed paperwork for folks who got plans approved and then built off plan with a dodgy certifier to do the periodic inspections during the construction phase. Everyone got in trouble!
posted by jrobin276 at 2:25 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I had to have a "wall check" done, to figure out where the shared property line was and where the center of the party wall between our houses was. It was not simple. I ended up having two surveyors come out and they came up with different lines (yes it was a matter of inches). At least for my 100 year old urban city block of rowhouses, surveying was as much art as science.
The 2nd surveying team had to measure the entire city block, the sidewalks, the alleyways, and the full width of all the buildings in order to explain why the center line of the party wall was not actually in the center of the party wall. I had hoped they just had to measure the width of my plot of land. Luckily I did not have to move the new footers of my rear porch, but I did have to narrow the width of the porch.
posted by jindc at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2015
The 2nd surveying team had to measure the entire city block, the sidewalks, the alleyways, and the full width of all the buildings in order to explain why the center line of the party wall was not actually in the center of the party wall. I had hoped they just had to measure the width of my plot of land. Luckily I did not have to move the new footers of my rear porch, but I did have to narrow the width of the porch.
posted by jindc at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2015
in the real world (not the theoretical one of plans and maps), are they over my line? And I just don't know how to answer that.
There are different kinds of surveys. Some just show property lines, some show structures - improvements - and items like landscaping, which includes trees, etc. When - and if - you talk to a surveyor, you will need one that shows improvements. Talk to the surveyor and tell them exactly what's going on - they can help you figure out how extensive your property survey needs to be. If the builders have already built a foundation and it's over the line, it will show up on your survey. If it's not, they can do the measurements for the setback.
When you talk to the office - many places require surveys to be part of the public record. If the developer did one before they started building - and they should have, if they're worth anything - a decent surveyor will have put in boundary markers, with a description of them on the survey. Ask the office for help reading it if they can provide one, or use the internet (how to read a survey). It may be something like a metal pin in a sidewalk or a small piece of rebar in a corner painted purple - it can vary. This can help you determine what to look for. Once you find them, the line should be straight between markers, and a quick eyeball approach can help you determine if you need a surveyor. If it's unclear, you will need a surveyor.
If the lot isn't hugely big and you find the markers, you can also do a dirty survey of the line with a ball of twine. Have a person hold one end of the twine at one marker, pool it out, and then hold the other end taut at the other end. (Or even better, put in a stake or pole and tie it.)
Also -did you buy your house? Check your records from buying - you might have a survey in there as well from a previous owner. The legal description, which will be in there, can also help you if you need help reading a plat map.
posted by barchan at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2015
There are different kinds of surveys. Some just show property lines, some show structures - improvements - and items like landscaping, which includes trees, etc. When - and if - you talk to a surveyor, you will need one that shows improvements. Talk to the surveyor and tell them exactly what's going on - they can help you figure out how extensive your property survey needs to be. If the builders have already built a foundation and it's over the line, it will show up on your survey. If it's not, they can do the measurements for the setback.
When you talk to the office - many places require surveys to be part of the public record. If the developer did one before they started building - and they should have, if they're worth anything - a decent surveyor will have put in boundary markers, with a description of them on the survey. Ask the office for help reading it if they can provide one, or use the internet (how to read a survey). It may be something like a metal pin in a sidewalk or a small piece of rebar in a corner painted purple - it can vary. This can help you determine what to look for. Once you find them, the line should be straight between markers, and a quick eyeball approach can help you determine if you need a surveyor. If it's unclear, you will need a surveyor.
If the lot isn't hugely big and you find the markers, you can also do a dirty survey of the line with a ball of twine. Have a person hold one end of the twine at one marker, pool it out, and then hold the other end taut at the other end. (Or even better, put in a stake or pole and tie it.)
Also -did you buy your house? Check your records from buying - you might have a survey in there as well from a previous owner. The legal description, which will be in there, can also help you if you need help reading a plat map.
posted by barchan at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2015
Response by poster: ========
I work for local city government, but not yours. They should be able to explain things to you, and if they think it sounds like what you're describing taking place is an issue they'll go do a site visit and check it out. They don't expect you to be an expert, and it should be totay fine that this isn't your forte.
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Now you're talking! :)
jrobin, is it the town building inspector I want to talk to? This is a fairly small town, fwiw.
posted by Quisp Lover at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2015
I work for local city government, but not yours. They should be able to explain things to you, and if they think it sounds like what you're describing taking place is an issue they'll go do a site visit and check it out. They don't expect you to be an expert, and it should be totay fine that this isn't your forte.
========
Now you're talking! :)
jrobin, is it the town building inspector I want to talk to? This is a fairly small town, fwiw.
posted by Quisp Lover at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2015
I agree with the others that you want real lawyers and real surveyors and you really really want this hammered out in a legal way. (If you don't think that maps belong in the real world, I'm surprised that you think that property lines do, because property lines are pretty much completely tied to maps.)
All that said, have you looked at your property online on Zillow or Google Maps? Zoom in all the way and you should see the property lines drawn, and the placement of your house on the property. Do those lines look anything like what you think they should look like? Can you glean anything from this exercise? My property has lots of weird angles and corners, and Zillow/Google Maps gets pretty close to right (within a few feet).
Looking at your property might give you the quick understanding that you're hoping to get from the surveyor without actually, you know, letting him do the work he needs to do to get you a true answer. And you can't take a printout from Google Maps over to stop a construction job; you need real lawyers and real surveyors to do that with real maps that are tied to surveyor jobs.
posted by aabbbiee at 3:09 PM on October 7, 2015
All that said, have you looked at your property online on Zillow or Google Maps? Zoom in all the way and you should see the property lines drawn, and the placement of your house on the property. Do those lines look anything like what you think they should look like? Can you glean anything from this exercise? My property has lots of weird angles and corners, and Zillow/Google Maps gets pretty close to right (within a few feet).
Looking at your property might give you the quick understanding that you're hoping to get from the surveyor without actually, you know, letting him do the work he needs to do to get you a true answer. And you can't take a printout from Google Maps over to stop a construction job; you need real lawyers and real surveyors to do that with real maps that are tied to surveyor jobs.
posted by aabbbiee at 3:09 PM on October 7, 2015
The Building and Planning Department will tell you to hire a surveyor. I'll tell (as an ex-planner and small-time builder) you to hire a surveyor. A lawyer, which you'll need if things go pear-shaped will tell you to hire a surveyor.
Your first move, right now, before you can do anything else is to have surveyor prepare a map.
posted by humboldt32 at 3:11 PM on October 7, 2015
Your first move, right now, before you can do anything else is to have surveyor prepare a map.
posted by humboldt32 at 3:11 PM on October 7, 2015
I am a real estate lawyer. I am not your real estate lawyer.
Not every decent surveyor puts in metal boundary markers. It is not, for example, required in every jurisdiction. In the one I practice in, getting metal boundary markers put in costs a substantial bit extra. Even the super deluxe surveys I get for my lending clients where the borrower is footing the bill -- they don't always get metal boundary markers. Similarly, not every subdivision (and even if you don't live in a neat little suburban development, you may very well live on a plot of land that has been subdivided from a larger one) plan requires the placement of metal boundary markers.
Please also note that the question of IS THIS OVER MY PROPERTY LINE???? is not always a simple yes/no question, especially, especially in old properties. I mean, you mention you live in an old house. I saw a 150 year old deed a couple years back that legit read something like, "100 feet more or less down to the big oak tree, then along [name of no longer existing creek] until the fence for the cow pasture of John Smith."
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:19 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not every decent surveyor puts in metal boundary markers. It is not, for example, required in every jurisdiction. In the one I practice in, getting metal boundary markers put in costs a substantial bit extra. Even the super deluxe surveys I get for my lending clients where the borrower is footing the bill -- they don't always get metal boundary markers. Similarly, not every subdivision (and even if you don't live in a neat little suburban development, you may very well live on a plot of land that has been subdivided from a larger one) plan requires the placement of metal boundary markers.
Please also note that the question of IS THIS OVER MY PROPERTY LINE???? is not always a simple yes/no question, especially, especially in old properties. I mean, you mention you live in an old house. I saw a 150 year old deed a couple years back that legit read something like, "100 feet more or less down to the big oak tree, then along [name of no longer existing creek] until the fence for the cow pasture of John Smith."
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:19 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have no way of borrowing a metal detector or using one if I had one,
Ask building supply stores. They might have metal detectors for sale or rent.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 5:41 PM on October 7, 2015
Ask building supply stores. They might have metal detectors for sale or rent.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 5:41 PM on October 7, 2015
First, go down to the local planning office and tell them that there is construction next door and you are concerned that it might be crossing a property line, and ask what they can tell you about the property lines, recent surveys, and the ongoing work. If you get someone unhelpful or who blows you off, work your way up the chain of command to a senior planner or the planning director if necessary. But the entry level planner whose job it is to answer public inquiries (like yours) can probably cover what you need to know.
If what they say doesn't jive with what you are seeing next door, ask for a site visit.
Based on that first conversation and what you learn, you might or might not need a surveyor and/or a lawyer. But hiring either of those before going to the planning office is putting the cart before the horse.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2015
If what they say doesn't jive with what you are seeing next door, ask for a site visit.
Based on that first conversation and what you learn, you might or might not need a surveyor and/or a lawyer. But hiring either of those before going to the planning office is putting the cart before the horse.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2015
Quisp Lover: " in the real world (not the theoretical one of plans and maps), are they over my line? And I just don't know how to answer that."
Get your surveyor to stake your property line. This is the first step regardless of how you proceed. Trying to determine the legal boundaries yourself is wasted effort and meaningless.
Once done it is just a simple eyeball to determine if they are building on your land or cut your trees. Add a tape measure to determine if they are allowing the correct setback. Call your planning department if you have questions on the setback or if you think they are building in the setback or on your land.
A survey isn't wasted money BTW. Having a recent proper survey adds value to your land if you ever want to sell it. Especially if you drive a few pins along the line (12" lengths of 3/4" rebar driven 12" below grade).
posted by Mitheral at 11:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Get your surveyor to stake your property line. This is the first step regardless of how you proceed. Trying to determine the legal boundaries yourself is wasted effort and meaningless.
Once done it is just a simple eyeball to determine if they are building on your land or cut your trees. Add a tape measure to determine if they are allowing the correct setback. Call your planning department if you have questions on the setback or if you think they are building in the setback or on your land.
A survey isn't wasted money BTW. Having a recent proper survey adds value to your land if you ever want to sell it. Especially if you drive a few pins along the line (12" lengths of 3/4" rebar driven 12" below grade).
posted by Mitheral at 11:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, as Dip Flash says, just start at the local planning office and ask some questions. THEN you can hire a surveyor and/or lawyer, based on what you discover from the planning office. This first step will cost you nothing but your time - and it will start your education on property lines and surveys, which will, in turn, should you need to hire the professionals, help you learn what to ask from them.
posted by sarajane at 8:47 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by sarajane at 8:47 AM on October 8, 2015
Response by poster: Update:
I hit the town's building department. The terribly helpful public servants didn't materialize, just a crusty embittered bureaucrat, annoyed that I'd interrupted her small talk. She told me all permits had been granted and there was a survey, and gave me a "go away" look. I asked to see a copy, and she instructed me to fill out a freedom of information act request with the town clerk. I did, and it was approved, and crusty bureaucrat (in the deserted office) said she'd call when the copy became available. Guess copying's a lot of work....
Then the surveyor called back. Turns out he did the work for the new neighbors (I'd asked their receptionist yesterday to check for conflict of interest, and she had no record of work there). He says it's on the up-and-up, and he'd put orange thingees in to mark the line.
So it seems like I need to 1. find the orange thingees and gauge whether they stuck to that line, and 2. verify that the setback is what's stipulated in their plans (or, at least, within lawful distance). Again, their foundation is disturbingly close to my house on an otherwise spacious plot.
Even if I had a tape measure long enough, I wouldn't go weasling around the construction site. So not sure how to proceed from here....
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:07 PM on October 8, 2015
I hit the town's building department. The terribly helpful public servants didn't materialize, just a crusty embittered bureaucrat, annoyed that I'd interrupted her small talk. She told me all permits had been granted and there was a survey, and gave me a "go away" look. I asked to see a copy, and she instructed me to fill out a freedom of information act request with the town clerk. I did, and it was approved, and crusty bureaucrat (in the deserted office) said she'd call when the copy became available. Guess copying's a lot of work....
Then the surveyor called back. Turns out he did the work for the new neighbors (I'd asked their receptionist yesterday to check for conflict of interest, and she had no record of work there). He says it's on the up-and-up, and he'd put orange thingees in to mark the line.
So it seems like I need to 1. find the orange thingees and gauge whether they stuck to that line, and 2. verify that the setback is what's stipulated in their plans (or, at least, within lawful distance). Again, their foundation is disturbingly close to my house on an otherwise spacious plot.
Even if I had a tape measure long enough, I wouldn't go weasling around the construction site. So not sure how to proceed from here....
posted by Quisp Lover at 1:07 PM on October 8, 2015
Before they pour any concrete for the foundation, the building inspector will (should) check that it meets setbacks prescribed for the zoning district. I honestly doubt someone with a permitted project would be allowed to encroach illegally on your property.
The corner pins should be easy enough to find and you can measure it off on the weekend, or after they quit for the day.
What is the prescribed set back that they must meet? If I were you, I'd be checking the zoning code to inform myself.
posted by humboldt32 at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2015
The corner pins should be easy enough to find and you can measure it off on the weekend, or after they quit for the day.
What is the prescribed set back that they must meet? If I were you, I'd be checking the zoning code to inform myself.
posted by humboldt32 at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2015
And you say "...a tape measure long enough." Just how far away is it? Your comments certainly imply that they're building closer than a run-of-the-mill 25' tape measure.
posted by humboldt32 at 2:29 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by humboldt32 at 2:29 PM on October 10, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
(IAAL, IANYL, TINLA)
posted by decathecting at 12:51 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]