Property Line Dispute, with a neighbor who is selling.

September 25, 2006 11:03 AM

Property Line Dispute, with a neighbor who is selling. Should we resolve it now, or hope for the best with the new neighbor?

Live in L.A. Our property line, between us and the neighbor is a straight line, running about 3 feet from our garage. But, when the fence gets to the corner of our garage, it just cuts over and the side of our garage becomes the defacto fence (essentially giving away that 3 feet wide strip of land).

Now, we don't actually care about that piece of property. But, the problem is that the dirt is higher on the neighbor's side, so this current arrangement leaves dirt pressing up against our garage, trapping moisture and, long story short, causing termite problems. Zoiks!

So, given this, we've been trying to work something out with the neighbor where we rebuild the fence on the true property line. He has been dragging it out forever, saying he would help us, not getting back to us, and we've been sort of conflict avoidant for too long.

Now, I went over to talk to him yesterday about it, proposed a weekend to do the work, and he said we would have a new neighbor by them and should talk to him about it. We sort of know the guy who bought the house - he has done handywork in the neighborhood before (and we didn't know it was being sold, because it was in probate, so there wasn't the usual sigh, open house kind of thing).

So, sorry for the very long explanation, but here is the question - What should we do? We want to have a good relationship with the new neighbor, don't want to spring this on him, etc. It would have obviously been ideal to get this resolved before the sale, but now it is about a week from closing escrow. My more confrontational friends say, file a property line dispute, hold up the sale and get it resolved. I just think we are likely to make a permanent enemy of the new neighbor (and this problem isn't his doing). On the other hand, some have suggested that if we let the sale go through then we may be, in effect letting the new "property line" stand. Argh. Any advice appreciated.

posted by krudiger to home & garden (24 comments total)

But is there actually a dispute about the property line? The only problem you seem to describe is that the neighbour is unhelpful in erecting the fence.
posted by raedyn at 11:11 AM on September 25, 2006

Yeah, sounds like the ball is in your court. If part of the fence is on your property then it seems as if you have the right to repair/remove the offending part at your expense. Probably better to do it now before the new neighbor comes along.
posted by JamesMessick at 11:21 AM on September 25, 2006

I'd try to get it resolved now if the repairs to the fence are going to be costly to your new neighbor. Then they might be able to get that money credited to them after the inspection. That would be friendlier than springing surprise repairs on them as they're moving in.
posted by christinetheslp at 11:22 AM on September 25, 2006

I'd talk to the new neighbor and make sure he's aware of the actual position of the property line -- if he's under the impression his property extends to the garage, he may have a bone to pick with the current owner.

Given that, mention that you've been working out the fence situation but it's been delayed -- don't make it sound like the current neighbor's fault completely and don't act like it has anything to do with the current sale. It's just a project that's been delayed that you're finally getting around to.
posted by mikeh at 11:23 AM on September 25, 2006

IANAL, but property lines are based on the legal description of the property (which will be in the deed). Where fences are built does not change the legal description of the property; day-to-day usage and feelings of "mine/not mine" are a separate issue. Note that (at least in SF) plat maps are not a substitute for the legal description - if the plat map shows that jog in the fence line but the legal description does not, the legal description overrides the plat map.

Maybe talk to the buyer now and let him know about the problem and what you plan to do to resolve it. I think holding up the sale is likely to just piss him off, as you say, but you could show him the deed for your property and let him see that "his" fence is on your property, and nicely inform him of your plans. He'll probably be reasonable about it, since he doesn't want to piss you off either. Letting him know upfront that you'll pay for the work (if that's the case) will undoubtedly help get him on your side.
posted by Quietgal at 11:25 AM on September 25, 2006

IANAL, but this sounds like something you need to let the new (potential) neighbor know about as soon as possible. You may not "care" about that strip of land, but he might, he might be paying a certain amount based on that land being part of the deal. He's entitled to know that it's your land that you have certain expectations for how it's going to be treated in the future. In general it's best not to let other people take your equity assets, like land.
posted by OmieWise at 11:30 AM on September 25, 2006

If there's no dispute about where the real property line is, I would do this: notify the buyer and his real estate attorney or agent or whatever that you intend to enforce the proper property line, by altering the fence in this way (describe your plans). Do this immediately, before the closing.

Since they're on notice before buying the property, they will not be misled about what they're buying. Actually, the current owner should have disclosed to them any property line issues that he was aware of. But you're going to make sure by doing it yourself.

And then, dependent on how this conversation/notification with the buyer goes, I would just do the work. I believe you should pay for the work - you've let the situation linger, you're going to end up with "more" property out of it, you pay for it. But just go ahead and do it, quit talking about it.
posted by jellicle at 11:33 AM on September 25, 2006

If he had a survey done, and he did unless he paid cash, then he probably already knows about that discrepency between the fence and property line. As long as you are sure about the property line (look at the survey from when you bought), then I would tell both the current and new neighbor that you are moving the fence, and the dirt and the reasons for moving the dirt. I would tell them in writing. Take the expense upon yourself. Even if it is the other guy's responsibility, and I am not so sure about that, collecting that money will just bring bad blood. Ideally you would have resolved this before the new guy purchased, but now do what you can.
posted by caddis at 11:38 AM on September 25, 2006

I just wanted to come back in and mention that there may be no dispute now, but there may well be a dispute once the sale goes through. I'm not sure what the legalities involved are, but your new neighbor might very well decide you're full of shit once he's got a deed and choose to challenge you on it. That means trouble and expense for you that should be borne by the selling neighbor if at all. It may be distasteful to address all of this now, but it isn't your responsibility to downplay your legal rights in order to facilitate your neighbor's home sale, especially since this is an open issue that you've tried to resolve in the past. Talk to the buyer now. At the very very least, if you can't get in touch with the buyer, send your current neighbor a certified notarized letter urging him to discuss this with the buyer. In other words, CYA.
posted by OmieWise at 11:39 AM on September 25, 2006

I just want to highlight what James Messick said above -- if the fence is on your property, it's your fence, and you can do with it what you please. Any attempt to come to an agreement with your (present) neightbor is just an attempt at neighborly friendliness, but is by no means required for you to be able to just rip the fence down.

Me, I'd be out there right now with my sawzall cutting down the fence. Hell, if you were in D.C., I'd come help you do it this evening; LA is a hell of a flight for me, and I doubt the airlines want my sawzall aboard.
posted by delfuego at 11:46 AM on September 25, 2006

"My more confrontational friends say, file a property line dispute, hold up the sale and get it resolved."

This is the CYA way but is liable to annoy your new neighbour. The risk is a judge may decide there is a easment but that risk should be fairly low. I'd phone the city building/planning department or whatever it's equivelent in LA is and ask for advice. They'll be able to tell you what needs to be done (some places you need to pull a permit to build a fence or for any excavation however small) and more importantly if you can remove the short fence running over to your garage that is on your property.

Unless there is a huge difference in grade between the two properties to the point where a retaining wall is required I'd just go ahead and do the work. If you plan to do it after the new guy moves in I'd tell him what your doing just as an FYI but I wouldn't ask for compensation. If your neighbour kicks in great, if he doesn't termites aren't eating your building. After all their is no real benift to him from the new fence.

Quietgal writes "IANAL, but property lines are based on the legal description of the property (which will be in the deed). Where fences are built does not change the legal description of the property;"

This really varies a lot. Here in Calgary the fence line is the legal property line if the fence is within 0.2m of the original surveyed property line. You have to get a real property report confirming the lot lines before you can sell your house in most cases.
posted by Mitheral at 11:52 AM on September 25, 2006

I think you've been more than nice to the guy. This guy sounds really flaky, and I bet he's been misleading his buyer. Tell him that he has to get the fence fixed now, and you both will share the cost.

If he doesn't comply, just knock his fence down. It's on your property. Then tell the new buyer. They'll delay closing, and he'll eat the cost of putting up the new fence himself- which serves him right for trying to avoid you.
posted by unexpected at 12:15 PM on September 25, 2006

You also have the right to reasonable access to your neighbor's property in order to maintain that fence. Believe it or not in some communities there is the office of the Fence Viewer whose job it is to resolve such matters. Call City Hall,ask for the assessor's office, and ask about it.
posted by Gungho at 12:17 PM on September 25, 2006

Also, if the guy buying the house is a local fix-it/handyman type, he may be buying the place to fix it up and turn around and sell it at a later date. He'd appreciate anything that would help make his future sale that much smoother.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:14 PM on September 25, 2006

You should notify both the seller and purchaser of the neighboring property of your intent. They both need to know because this issue clouds the seller's title.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:48 PM on September 25, 2006

P.S. This is going to piss the seller off, but he deserves it for not cooperating in the past.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 1:49 PM on September 25, 2006

Don't think that any survey was done just because the property has changed ownership.

You need to pay a licensed surveyor to verify the lot lines. You can't take it for granted anywhere in LA Co that the existing fence lines, or what are taken to be the property lines are conclusive without a recent survey. Land with any slope to it moves and shifts fence lines along with it.
posted by X4ster at 2:16 PM on September 25, 2006

Google "adverse possession."
posted by MattD at 4:56 PM on September 25, 2006

Who owns the current fence? A fence may be jointly owned, but many or most fences are owned by one property owner or the other. If it's your fence and you are the one who wants to update the fence, maybe install a retaining wall too, then why should this be your neighbor's concern?

It might well be worth getting a survey to make sure you are fencing in all your land.
posted by richg at 4:59 PM on September 25, 2006

I've been in almost exactly the same situation, including the part about the house changing hands.

You have two problems: the dirt that's damaging your garage, and starting off on the right foot with your new neighbor. Your current neighbor isn't going to help you in any way, and he's probably not disclosing to the buyer any property line issues.

Write the guy a polite letter to document the history of the matter -- something like, "You and I agreed to do (whatever); you never came through. I have to repair my garage now and I won't leave things in a mess. Please assure your buyer that we'll discuss future changes with him/her." (If a dollar amount was ever discussed between the two of you, throw that in in case the new buyer wants to go after him for it.)

Take down the jog of the fence to gain access. Dig away the offending dirt, repair the garage or not, make sure the area is clean and presentable, and close up the fence. When the new neighbor moves in, you and he/she can talk about what should happen next. The intentional non-disclosure will be documented, so you'll be in the clear. There won't be any urgency, because the dirt will have been removed.

Forget about the current neighbor holding up his end of your deal with him. It's not going to happen.
posted by wryly at 6:34 PM on September 25, 2006

Is there a better way to get a new neighbor situation off on a good foot than letting the new neighbor know about a property line issue the seller may not have mentioned, before the neighbor actually buys?
posted by mediareport at 6:58 PM on September 25, 2006

Thanks to all for your thoughtful advice. I sent the old owner a certified letter today outlining the dispute and asking for contact information for the new owner. I'll let you know how it goes.
posted by krudiger at 2:49 PM on September 26, 2006

good luck
posted by caddis at 4:17 PM on September 26, 2006

I dunno, seems like you're still being kinda "conflict-avoidant." This is a guy who's been dragging things out and not getting back to you, the closing is in a week, and you sent him a *letter*?

You might want to think about an alternative plan for contacting the new owner before the closing, unless you want to wait until he's already moved in to deal with this.
posted by mediareport at 10:41 PM on September 26, 2006