Dating confusion
June 16, 2015 7:00 PM Subscribe
Please help me sort out a new-ish dating situation.
So I've been single (after being married for seven years) for several years now. I've casually dated several men I met via okcupid and at this point am ready for a more serious relationship.
I met a guy online who I have been dating since March. We are in our late 30's/early 40's. We met in March and only went out maybe three times in March and April as he has a daughter he spends a lot of time with (obviously not at all a problem for me). He didn't even kiss me until the 3rd date and then it was just a peck on the lips. I thought he for sure wasn't interested but he kept asking me out and we've always had a really good time together - the conversation flows freely and I think we genuinely like each other and enjoy each other's company. He has been separated for a year and a half but is not divorced due to health insurance issues. He has a good relationship with his ex but they are not going to get back together (I believe him when he says this). He was upfront about all of this on his dating profile. He has always been honest with me.
On our fourth date we went back to his place and made out but didn't sleep together until our fifth date (he never pushed me and was actually pretty slow about things - I had to be the instigator). Then we got hot and heavy pretty quickly and I slept over a week or so later, we spent a few days together and everything seemed great. The following week, when we were out on our weekly date (which is what we've been averaging), I was feeling a lot of anxiety about how to define our relationship and brought it up. He told me he really likes me, enjoys spending time with me but does not feel ready for something serious right now. He says he is still too integrated with his old life, even though they're not getting back together. He says he's known for awhile that he needs to change this. He doesn't really hang out with his ex but they get along and he's over there several times a week because of their daughter. I believe him 100% on everything he says about this and the relationship with his ex is not an issue for me.
He says he loves spending time with me and still wants to see me, but keep it more like what we've been doing, which is going out once, maybe twice a week. We don't really talk or text in between as he either has his daughter or is doing activities with her (coaching, etc). Once in a while he will do something with friends, maybe every other week or so. Last week (Sun-Sat) he emailed me something he thought I'd like on Monday and asked me to dinner (for Thursday) I think on Tuesday. Wednesday night we spoke on the phone. Thursday, dinner. He emailed me something he thought I'd like on Friday, followed by a quick text and we didn't speak again until today (Tuesday), when he texted me to ask if I wanted to have dinner on Thursday. I don't really expect to talk to him before then. We are facebook friends and both on it daily, though he never posts and I do frequently (he rarely interacts with me on there). He has never bought me flowers or any other sort of thing and has never said anything like "hey, why don't we go do [thing you mentioned you were interested in doing/seeing]". I certainly don't expect gifts or anything like that, but almost all guys have done something like that for me in the past, so I'm confused that he hasn't.
He said he does not want to be only FWB (I asked explicitly). The sex is great, but I don't feel that he is only after sex (last Thursday we had an extended makeout session in his car when he dropped me off at home, but no sex). He isn't very expressive with how he feels - at least not in the way I am or am used to - I am very complementary and affectionate and am used to men also being that way with me. He has told me I look nice before and said he thinks I'm sexy and smart but he doesn't do it all that often and usually not without some kind of prompting or me asking him explicitly if he finds me attractive.
I told him I was interested in him in a more serious way and that I am looking for and want a serious relationship. I would like to continue to see him, but I don't want to just casually date him forever waiting for him to be ready and then finding out he never is, so I asked him what I should do if other people ask me out. He hesitated and said I should go out with other people if I wanted to. I told him I was going to take his cues and let him instigate things because I didn't want to push him, plus I instigated almost everything in the beginning. He said he is not great at instigating but he has instigated everything we've done since then (maybe 2-3 weeks ago, since we had that talk). I asked him to let me know if his feelings change in any way and that if he ever wants to stop seeing me he should just be honest with me. I told him I would prefer him being fully straightforward with me rather than leading me on or doing a slow fade, which is much more hurtful. He promised he would be.
A few things going through my head:
1. I've always felt that if someone wants to be with me I'll know it, i.e. they'll be demonstrative in their affection and want to be with me all the time. That's definitely how I am. I'm really used to men (esp. my ex) actively pursuing me and complimenting me. Basically acting like they think I'm the greatest thing ever, which I love because I never want to be unsure of or have to guess at someone's feelings for me. He doesn't seem to be overtly expressive and I have a hard time figuring out if he's maybe a little more shy or if he's just not that into me.
2. If he's into me but maybe a little more reserved, I don't know what is a reasonable balance re: my desire to have someone show they want to be with me and respecting that they may be more reserved. I know I can ask for what I want and need in a relationship, I just don't know what a realistic expectation for the amount of attention and time that I want from a person is.
3. I really have feelings for him. I want to still see him but also protect myself from heartbreak if he's not into me or if he never finds himself "ready" for a relationship. Some advice on if I should continue to see him because we enjoy each other's company (and hope for the best) or stop because it just makes my feelings stronger every time I see him, would be very helpful.
I'm sorry for the long, rambling post. I don't know how to do this dating thing and I can't sort out my own thoughts in a rational way. I want to strike a good balance between respecting him and protecting myself.
So I've been single (after being married for seven years) for several years now. I've casually dated several men I met via okcupid and at this point am ready for a more serious relationship.
I met a guy online who I have been dating since March. We are in our late 30's/early 40's. We met in March and only went out maybe three times in March and April as he has a daughter he spends a lot of time with (obviously not at all a problem for me). He didn't even kiss me until the 3rd date and then it was just a peck on the lips. I thought he for sure wasn't interested but he kept asking me out and we've always had a really good time together - the conversation flows freely and I think we genuinely like each other and enjoy each other's company. He has been separated for a year and a half but is not divorced due to health insurance issues. He has a good relationship with his ex but they are not going to get back together (I believe him when he says this). He was upfront about all of this on his dating profile. He has always been honest with me.
On our fourth date we went back to his place and made out but didn't sleep together until our fifth date (he never pushed me and was actually pretty slow about things - I had to be the instigator). Then we got hot and heavy pretty quickly and I slept over a week or so later, we spent a few days together and everything seemed great. The following week, when we were out on our weekly date (which is what we've been averaging), I was feeling a lot of anxiety about how to define our relationship and brought it up. He told me he really likes me, enjoys spending time with me but does not feel ready for something serious right now. He says he is still too integrated with his old life, even though they're not getting back together. He says he's known for awhile that he needs to change this. He doesn't really hang out with his ex but they get along and he's over there several times a week because of their daughter. I believe him 100% on everything he says about this and the relationship with his ex is not an issue for me.
He says he loves spending time with me and still wants to see me, but keep it more like what we've been doing, which is going out once, maybe twice a week. We don't really talk or text in between as he either has his daughter or is doing activities with her (coaching, etc). Once in a while he will do something with friends, maybe every other week or so. Last week (Sun-Sat) he emailed me something he thought I'd like on Monday and asked me to dinner (for Thursday) I think on Tuesday. Wednesday night we spoke on the phone. Thursday, dinner. He emailed me something he thought I'd like on Friday, followed by a quick text and we didn't speak again until today (Tuesday), when he texted me to ask if I wanted to have dinner on Thursday. I don't really expect to talk to him before then. We are facebook friends and both on it daily, though he never posts and I do frequently (he rarely interacts with me on there). He has never bought me flowers or any other sort of thing and has never said anything like "hey, why don't we go do [thing you mentioned you were interested in doing/seeing]". I certainly don't expect gifts or anything like that, but almost all guys have done something like that for me in the past, so I'm confused that he hasn't.
He said he does not want to be only FWB (I asked explicitly). The sex is great, but I don't feel that he is only after sex (last Thursday we had an extended makeout session in his car when he dropped me off at home, but no sex). He isn't very expressive with how he feels - at least not in the way I am or am used to - I am very complementary and affectionate and am used to men also being that way with me. He has told me I look nice before and said he thinks I'm sexy and smart but he doesn't do it all that often and usually not without some kind of prompting or me asking him explicitly if he finds me attractive.
I told him I was interested in him in a more serious way and that I am looking for and want a serious relationship. I would like to continue to see him, but I don't want to just casually date him forever waiting for him to be ready and then finding out he never is, so I asked him what I should do if other people ask me out. He hesitated and said I should go out with other people if I wanted to. I told him I was going to take his cues and let him instigate things because I didn't want to push him, plus I instigated almost everything in the beginning. He said he is not great at instigating but he has instigated everything we've done since then (maybe 2-3 weeks ago, since we had that talk). I asked him to let me know if his feelings change in any way and that if he ever wants to stop seeing me he should just be honest with me. I told him I would prefer him being fully straightforward with me rather than leading me on or doing a slow fade, which is much more hurtful. He promised he would be.
A few things going through my head:
1. I've always felt that if someone wants to be with me I'll know it, i.e. they'll be demonstrative in their affection and want to be with me all the time. That's definitely how I am. I'm really used to men (esp. my ex) actively pursuing me and complimenting me. Basically acting like they think I'm the greatest thing ever, which I love because I never want to be unsure of or have to guess at someone's feelings for me. He doesn't seem to be overtly expressive and I have a hard time figuring out if he's maybe a little more shy or if he's just not that into me.
2. If he's into me but maybe a little more reserved, I don't know what is a reasonable balance re: my desire to have someone show they want to be with me and respecting that they may be more reserved. I know I can ask for what I want and need in a relationship, I just don't know what a realistic expectation for the amount of attention and time that I want from a person is.
3. I really have feelings for him. I want to still see him but also protect myself from heartbreak if he's not into me or if he never finds himself "ready" for a relationship. Some advice on if I should continue to see him because we enjoy each other's company (and hope for the best) or stop because it just makes my feelings stronger every time I see him, would be very helpful.
I'm sorry for the long, rambling post. I don't know how to do this dating thing and I can't sort out my own thoughts in a rational way. I want to strike a good balance between respecting him and protecting myself.
Well, it's not just up to him to be "ready" for a relationship. Relationships by definition involve at least two people. So "I am ready, when will you be ready/what is it going to take for you to be ready?" seems to be a pretty reasonable...not exactly ultimatum...but certainly a pretty reasonable thing to ask.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:06 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:06 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think broach the topic of wanting exclusivity at your next date and his answer might clear things up for you.
Separation and divorce after you thought you would be with someone for ever are really hard on the heart. I think he's being cautious.
posted by Dragonness at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Separation and divorce after you thought you would be with someone for ever are really hard on the heart. I think he's being cautious.
posted by Dragonness at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: As a reserved person here, it sounds to me like that's what you're dealing with, and you're just not used to that or how to deal with it. I can't tell you how to deal with it, except that I think you'll both need to compromise somewhat to make things work for both of you, but I not hearing that this guy isn't into you. I'm just hearing that he's not a demonstrative person.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:16 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by J. Wilson at 7:16 PM on June 16, 2015
He says he is still too integrated with his old life, even though they're not getting back together. He says he's known for awhile that he needs to change this.
But he is still not really wanting to, it sounds like. I think he needs more time to work all that out. But you need more affection and time than you're getting (which is fair, and you know from experience it's possible for someone else to offer at least one of these). I think the timing is just kind of not great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
But he is still not really wanting to, it sounds like. I think he needs more time to work all that out. But you need more affection and time than you're getting (which is fair, and you know from experience it's possible for someone else to offer at least one of these). I think the timing is just kind of not great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
You were wrong to be OK with the fact that he's still married.
They are not getting back together, but he has not yet moved on. Ditto, you are his FWB. Really.
He's not ready. Throw this one back and keep fishing. Next time, find someone who is fully available.
TL;DR past the middle of your question because it was distracting beanplating. He's married. End of story.
PS - most of the time when a guy like this becones "ready" - it won't be to be with the FWB person they've been previously seeing.
PPS -- You're AWESOME, you don't have to play "cool girl" games! Only date men whose goals and values align with yours. You are allowed and encourage to never settle!!
posted by jbenben at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
They are not getting back together, but he has not yet moved on. Ditto, you are his FWB. Really.
He's not ready. Throw this one back and keep fishing. Next time, find someone who is fully available.
TL;DR past the middle of your question because it was distracting beanplating. He's married. End of story.
PS - most of the time when a guy like this becones "ready" - it won't be to be with the FWB person they've been previously seeing.
PPS -- You're AWESOME, you don't have to play "cool girl" games! Only date men whose goals and values align with yours. You are allowed and encourage to never settle!!
posted by jbenben at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like you have a good handle on what you want out of a relationship and your needs. From what you say, it sounds like you want a committed relationship, to be able to be openly affectionate and have that returned, and for your partner to be initiating in the relationship an equal amount of time. I think it's admirable that you are in tune with what you want and are able to articulate it clearly.
It doesn't sound like this man is meeting your (very reasonable) needs. It's really his problem. I wouldn't leave the ball in his court to break up with you if he's not going to escalate the relationship. It sounds like he is clear that he doesn't want to escalate the relationship for whatever reasons which are likely not about you. You might feel better about it in the long term if you were the one to say, "Hey, look. This is what I need. From what I understand it sounds like you aren't able to give that to me right now. Let's break it off. Best of luck in the future." By telling him to please break up with you gently and let you down easy when he's ready you're signing off your agency in the relationship. You know what you need to know. Pump yourself up with a few listens of "Don't want no scrubs," do the deed and feel proud of yourself.
posted by mermily at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
It doesn't sound like this man is meeting your (very reasonable) needs. It's really his problem. I wouldn't leave the ball in his court to break up with you if he's not going to escalate the relationship. It sounds like he is clear that he doesn't want to escalate the relationship for whatever reasons which are likely not about you. You might feel better about it in the long term if you were the one to say, "Hey, look. This is what I need. From what I understand it sounds like you aren't able to give that to me right now. Let's break it off. Best of luck in the future." By telling him to please break up with you gently and let you down easy when he's ready you're signing off your agency in the relationship. You know what you need to know. Pump yourself up with a few listens of "Don't want no scrubs," do the deed and feel proud of yourself.
posted by mermily at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
No matter how far removed a person is from their spouse in the divorcing spectrum, that person is not truly available for someone else until the divorce is completely done. I also find that their emotions and feelings are not necessarily trustworthy -- not because they are bad people, per se, but because divorcing is a complicated mess of feelings even in the best and cleanest of divorces.
I learned all of this the hard way so if it was me, I would bail and tell him to look me up when the divorce is final. Who knows, he might actually call some day and he might find that you are not available!
posted by murrey at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
I learned all of this the hard way so if it was me, I would bail and tell him to look me up when the divorce is final. Who knows, he might actually call some day and he might find that you are not available!
posted by murrey at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
"By telling him to please break up with you gently you're signing off your agency in the relationship."
There's many a man (and woman!!) who will keep dating you and not act on your "please break up with me if this is not what you want, too" request, just because you allowed them to stick around without meeting your relationship requirements. Ask me how I know!
posted by jbenben at 7:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
There's many a man (and woman!!) who will keep dating you and not act on your "please break up with me if this is not what you want, too" request, just because you allowed them to stick around without meeting your relationship requirements. Ask me how I know!
posted by jbenben at 7:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
He is not eager to jump into something serious. This seems pretty reasonable to me and would probably be anyone else's reasonable advice to him. if you want something more serious, you should probably let this go.
posted by vunder at 7:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by vunder at 7:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
He told you exactly where he's at. "He says he loves spending time with me and still wants to see me, but keep it more like what we've been doing, which is going out once, maybe twice a week."
He likes you, but not enough to want to see you more often. You'll still be seeing him once a week a year from now if you stay in this relationship. That's what he wants. If it's not what you want, dump him.
posted by MsMolly at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
He likes you, but not enough to want to see you more often. You'll still be seeing him once a week a year from now if you stay in this relationship. That's what he wants. If it's not what you want, dump him.
posted by MsMolly at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
told him I was interested in him in a more serious way and that I am looking for and want a serious relationship. I would like to continue to see him, but I don't want to just casually date him forever waiting for him to be ready and then finding out he never is, so I asked him what I should do if other people ask me out. He hesitated and said I should go out with other people if I wanted to.
Yeah, he told you he doesn't want to date you seriously. I don't know what cues you're looking for.
He says he loves spending time with me and still wants to see me, but keep it more like what we've been doing, which is going out once, maybe twice a week.
He wants "the girlfriend experience" without the commitment. Get out before you get more hurt, because you will, even though he's been way more upfront with you about this than (some) guys have been with me.
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on June 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, he told you he doesn't want to date you seriously. I don't know what cues you're looking for.
He says he loves spending time with me and still wants to see me, but keep it more like what we've been doing, which is going out once, maybe twice a week.
He wants "the girlfriend experience" without the commitment. Get out before you get more hurt, because you will, even though he's been way more upfront with you about this than (some) guys have been with me.
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on June 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
Let's assume that there really is no issue with his relationship with his ex; and let's even assume that he may be ready in the not-too-distant future for something more serious. Even then, it does not sound like he will be able to give you what you are looking for. And the longer you stay, the harder it will be to let go. In a messed up way, it is often the people who keep you guessing and wondering if you are really what they want who exert the strongest pull on you. And the longer you deal with that, the more damage it will do. He does not seem to be messing with your feelings in a calculated or malicious way; but the damage is still being done nonetheless. Better to get out sooner rather than later. (I am sorry this is happening; it really sucks, I know.)
posted by fikri at 7:56 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by fikri at 7:56 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think you have to take this one at face value. You told him you're ready for a serious relationship and he told you straight up that he isn't. This is what he has to offer. I wouldn't expect it to change.
Realistically, when he IS ready, he will almost certainly want to find someone new that he can start a new leaf with, rather than continue with the gal he was casually dating while still married to his ex. If you're enjoying the making out and the sex, continue by all means, but mentally you ought to categorize him as a FWB.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Realistically, when he IS ready, he will almost certainly want to find someone new that he can start a new leaf with, rather than continue with the gal he was casually dating while still married to his ex. If you're enjoying the making out and the sex, continue by all means, but mentally you ought to categorize him as a FWB.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I missed that he was married and had a whole bunch of advice, and then I saw that he was married.
The pace thing - different people have different paces. But figure this out with someone else. Don't date married men, even if they have reasons for not being divorced ("yet"). They are by definition not available. It's so so so likely to end in heartache for you, and there are other men out there who will be more available and with whom you will be able to discuss things like pacing, confusions, and concerns you have about the relationship. Really. You're ready for something serious, so look to date someone who can also be serious about you. You deserve that.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
The pace thing - different people have different paces. But figure this out with someone else. Don't date married men, even if they have reasons for not being divorced ("yet"). They are by definition not available. It's so so so likely to end in heartache for you, and there are other men out there who will be more available and with whom you will be able to discuss things like pacing, confusions, and concerns you have about the relationship. Really. You're ready for something serious, so look to date someone who can also be serious about you. You deserve that.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
He's married (doesn't matter what his reasons are, he's married) and has told you to see other people. What part of this makes you think he's ready for a serious exclusive relationship with you? He already has one with someone else! She's called his wife.
posted by Jubey at 8:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 8:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
It seems like staying married because of health insurance reasons might, in fact, be a legitimate reason to stay married, although I thought this was part of what ObamaCare was supposed to fix.
And it's ok to continue to go on dates with him and see what happens, as it sounds like you haven't really been on all that many dates (which I undestand is part of the issue). But what happens if you invite him to do something on the weekend after you've met up for dinner on Thursday?
Is there some intermediate step you can visualize between the current not-enough-contact situation and A Serious Committed Relationship?
posted by leahwrenn at 9:06 PM on June 16, 2015
And it's ok to continue to go on dates with him and see what happens, as it sounds like you haven't really been on all that many dates (which I undestand is part of the issue). But what happens if you invite him to do something on the weekend after you've met up for dinner on Thursday?
Is there some intermediate step you can visualize between the current not-enough-contact situation and A Serious Committed Relationship?
posted by leahwrenn at 9:06 PM on June 16, 2015
Even if he's effectively done with his marriage, he's decidedly not ready to do anything serious again. He told you as much.
This is normal for people getting out of marriages: they're tired, hurt, confused, reconstructing their sense of self from a long weird trip, and more than a little cautious about starting another one.
You want someone ready to start up a serious thing, throw themselves into it, be all there. He's not, and he won't be for a while. You won't know when, you can't rush this, and he may well fall for someone who's not you when and if he's ever ready again.
posted by ead at 9:23 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is normal for people getting out of marriages: they're tired, hurt, confused, reconstructing their sense of self from a long weird trip, and more than a little cautious about starting another one.
You want someone ready to start up a serious thing, throw themselves into it, be all there. He's not, and he won't be for a while. You won't know when, you can't rush this, and he may well fall for someone who's not you when and if he's ever ready again.
posted by ead at 9:23 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I think I know how you're feeling. I had a benchmark for my post marriage relationships which is that it was going to be better and more fulfilling than what I'd experienced. I'd be with someone who really wanted me and knew how to express his/her care of me. I met guys like your one here - nice enough, pleasant, enjoyable but not able to express himself in ways that I needed, nor fully in charge of his own life [here there is co-dependence over the health insurance.] Including sexual excitement, eagerness to talk to me during the week, planning things, making me feel valued and important to him. It's all right to keep looking for that person.
posted by honey-barbara at 9:32 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by honey-barbara at 9:32 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The whole "he's married" thing strikes me as odd to be used in such absolutes. Though I would agree about recently separated men, I know many couples who are long term separated (some as many as 10 years!) but for various reasons don't divorce (health care, international couples, taxes, jointly owned houses, whatever). Is that an American thing to be so black and white? Because I find the extreme views here on this a little bit startling.
Anyhow, post-divorce 3 years and I'm still not ready for anything serious. In this case, it likely really isn't you. He may never be ready, and once he is ready it may not be you in the end. If you can live with that risk, then enjoy your time together, but if you want more certainty then this doesn't sound like the right situation.
posted by frumiousb at 10:08 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
Anyhow, post-divorce 3 years and I'm still not ready for anything serious. In this case, it likely really isn't you. He may never be ready, and once he is ready it may not be you in the end. If you can live with that risk, then enjoy your time together, but if you want more certainty then this doesn't sound like the right situation.
posted by frumiousb at 10:08 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think I can clarify this:
"The whole "he's married" thing strikes me as odd to be used in such absolutes. Though I would agree about recently separated men, I know many couples who are long term separated (some as many as 10 years!) but for various reasons don't divorce (health care, international couples, taxes, jointly owned houses, whatever). Is that an American thing to be so black and white? Because I find the views here on this a little bit startling."
Y'know, it might be an American thing, but I think it's more He's Married + Barely Separated + Co-Parenting + He Said He Was Not Ready = Move On, OP.
This is a man who thinks he did enough by disclosing online, then disclosing his position again in person. PLUS - he's less affectionate and demonstrative and therefore less emotionally available than the OP requires in a dating situation. Like, why is the OP (I know they're asking for a non-MeFite) putting so much emphasis on someone who has repeatedly stated their very firm boundaries? It's just not going to happen...
And it all kinda starts with still being married on paper. I was not really available relationship-wise until I officially divorced 4 years after I was separated myself, maybe it is a subconscious thing? But this man will be holding any potential significant romantic intimacy at bay until those divorce papers are final, because he has said so. I see no reason in all that beanplating to know otherwise. It's just how these things go.
I see no reason why the OP should delay her opportunity for sooner emotional relationship fulfillment by rolling the dice on a stated fact on essentially indifinite-term lack of emotional personal fulfillment from this particular relationship. It's not happening here, full stop.
posted by jbenben at 12:21 AM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
"The whole "he's married" thing strikes me as odd to be used in such absolutes. Though I would agree about recently separated men, I know many couples who are long term separated (some as many as 10 years!) but for various reasons don't divorce (health care, international couples, taxes, jointly owned houses, whatever). Is that an American thing to be so black and white? Because I find the views here on this a little bit startling."
Y'know, it might be an American thing, but I think it's more He's Married + Barely Separated + Co-Parenting + He Said He Was Not Ready = Move On, OP.
This is a man who thinks he did enough by disclosing online, then disclosing his position again in person. PLUS - he's less affectionate and demonstrative and therefore less emotionally available than the OP requires in a dating situation. Like, why is the OP (I know they're asking for a non-MeFite) putting so much emphasis on someone who has repeatedly stated their very firm boundaries? It's just not going to happen...
And it all kinda starts with still being married on paper. I was not really available relationship-wise until I officially divorced 4 years after I was separated myself, maybe it is a subconscious thing? But this man will be holding any potential significant romantic intimacy at bay until those divorce papers are final, because he has said so. I see no reason in all that beanplating to know otherwise. It's just how these things go.
I see no reason why the OP should delay her opportunity for sooner emotional relationship fulfillment by rolling the dice on a stated fact on essentially indifinite-term lack of emotional personal fulfillment from this particular relationship. It's not happening here, full stop.
posted by jbenben at 12:21 AM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Y'know, it might be an American thing, but I think it's more He's Married + Barely Separated + Co-Parenting + He Said He Was Not Ready = Move On, OP.
Yes, but that's a different matter, and for me the last three points weigh in much more strongly than the married-on-paper thing. I'm reacting to the some of the comments which seem to insist that no matter how separated his primary relationship is still with his wife.
In these economic times, quite a few people stay married on paper, and I don't think they're all in denial about their ability to move on.
posted by frumiousb at 5:30 AM on June 17, 2015
Yes, but that's a different matter, and for me the last three points weigh in much more strongly than the married-on-paper thing. I'm reacting to the some of the comments which seem to insist that no matter how separated his primary relationship is still with his wife.
In these economic times, quite a few people stay married on paper, and I don't think they're all in denial about their ability to move on.
posted by frumiousb at 5:30 AM on June 17, 2015
I have a personal rule to never date married men because by definition they are not available. They are married and have a legally binding relationship with someone else. Someone who is not me. I am not alone in this rule, which is why many people give the advice to never get involved with a man who is still married. In some states, adultery is a crime and I would therefore be participating in a crime if I dated someone who was still married "on paper." No thanks.
For many people, marriage is not just about the document. It's not just "on paper" for the large majority of people. There are often social barriers, not economic ones, that keep people from moving forward with the divorce. The economic justifications are nearly always just that - justifications.
I think the advice to not date married men makes sense, given my own personal experience and the experiences of many women I know who have come to regret dating married men. This may narrow my dating pool and I might miss out on that rare outlier who is a great guy and ready to move on but who is still married for some reason. Oh well. I'm willing to take that risk and keep my rule, and to advise others to adopt the same rule, given that people who are still married on paper but are also ready to move on are outliers and are not the norm. The potential for heartache is so high if you date a man who is married, especially if you're looking for a long-term relationship. Especially. He's married - he already has a long-term relationship. And it's not with you.
posted by sockermom at 7:58 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
For many people, marriage is not just about the document. It's not just "on paper" for the large majority of people. There are often social barriers, not economic ones, that keep people from moving forward with the divorce. The economic justifications are nearly always just that - justifications.
I think the advice to not date married men makes sense, given my own personal experience and the experiences of many women I know who have come to regret dating married men. This may narrow my dating pool and I might miss out on that rare outlier who is a great guy and ready to move on but who is still married for some reason. Oh well. I'm willing to take that risk and keep my rule, and to advise others to adopt the same rule, given that people who are still married on paper but are also ready to move on are outliers and are not the norm. The potential for heartache is so high if you date a man who is married, especially if you're looking for a long-term relationship. Especially. He's married - he already has a long-term relationship. And it's not with you.
posted by sockermom at 7:58 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I highly recommend you read Dating the Divorced Man. It's full of good, concrete advice and ways to determine just how much energy to put into relationships with divorced and separated men.
As far as this guy, he seems to have no plans for filing divorce paperwork, which I'd consider very problematic. Not because it means he's planning on getting back together with his ex — but because once he does file, the big ball of stress that is a divorce (even a relatively amiable one) will descend upon his life, and stay there for months or possibly years. Once the divorce is finalized, he's going to go through a second emotional stressor. That's two huge stresses that are perfectly normal and appropriate, and you can do nothing about them. The likelihood of your relationship surviving would be slim even if he were ardently pursuing you and talking about deepening your level of emotional intimacy and commitment. But when you factor in that this guy's told you he doesn't want anything more out of the relationship than what it currently is… I'm not optimistic, dude.
This guy seems like he's a decent enough person: he's been honest, upfront, and isn't leading you down the primrose path. His emotional unavailability isn't malicious or premeditated. But because of it, all he's able to offer you right now is scraps, and you need an actual meal. It's easier said than done, I know. I know. Ye gods, do I know! But part ways with him, and go find someone who will cheerfully cook you a meal.
posted by culfinglin at 9:01 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
As far as this guy, he seems to have no plans for filing divorce paperwork, which I'd consider very problematic. Not because it means he's planning on getting back together with his ex — but because once he does file, the big ball of stress that is a divorce (even a relatively amiable one) will descend upon his life, and stay there for months or possibly years. Once the divorce is finalized, he's going to go through a second emotional stressor. That's two huge stresses that are perfectly normal and appropriate, and you can do nothing about them. The likelihood of your relationship surviving would be slim even if he were ardently pursuing you and talking about deepening your level of emotional intimacy and commitment. But when you factor in that this guy's told you he doesn't want anything more out of the relationship than what it currently is… I'm not optimistic, dude.
This guy seems like he's a decent enough person: he's been honest, upfront, and isn't leading you down the primrose path. His emotional unavailability isn't malicious or premeditated. But because of it, all he's able to offer you right now is scraps, and you need an actual meal. It's easier said than done, I know. I know. Ye gods, do I know! But part ways with him, and go find someone who will cheerfully cook you a meal.
posted by culfinglin at 9:01 AM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Folks, make sure this doesn't wander away from answering the asker and toward arguing with each other.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2015
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2015
He’s into you, but not ready for a life partner type relationship. If you are seeking a life partner type relationship, keep looking. If the sex and conversation are fun for you, keep at it; indeed, you can even while you’re looking for a life partner if you’d like.
posted by metasarah at 11:09 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 11:09 AM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: **Some advice on if I should continue to see him because we enjoy each other's company (and hope for the best) or stop because it just makes my feelings stronger every time I see him**
I think that's your question and the answer is yes and yes, depending on your aversion to risk.
Single people are just as guilty for being on different pages in a relationship, so the whole 'he's married' thing is a bit of a red herring here. Remember, if you dump him now and meet a truly single person, how long do they get before it's an issue? And the next guy? and the next guy? Before you know it, each successive person become more obliged to be ready exactly when you are simply because you put in so much time with the previous ones. The question you should be asking is, "How long should I give this guy?" If the answer is anything other than, "not another minute," then you go on living your life and enjoy the way things are right now.
There is no formula here. Good luck.
posted by teg4rvn at 12:32 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that's your question and the answer is yes and yes, depending on your aversion to risk.
Single people are just as guilty for being on different pages in a relationship, so the whole 'he's married' thing is a bit of a red herring here. Remember, if you dump him now and meet a truly single person, how long do they get before it's an issue? And the next guy? and the next guy? Before you know it, each successive person become more obliged to be ready exactly when you are simply because you put in so much time with the previous ones. The question you should be asking is, "How long should I give this guy?" If the answer is anything other than, "not another minute," then you go on living your life and enjoy the way things are right now.
There is no formula here. Good luck.
posted by teg4rvn at 12:32 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you should listen to him and try seeing other people. Hell, do more than try...just do it. Even if he's nice, even if you're "chill", you are un satisfied and want something more serious. There's nothing wrong with that and there are plenty of men who want the same.
He's not ready and may not be anytime soon, he's said as much and even told you to see other people. Go out there and get what you need knowing full well that it's unlikely going to be him. Because, really is he's as reserved 5 years from now as he is today would you be happy with that?
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 1:05 PM on June 17, 2015
He's not ready and may not be anytime soon, he's said as much and even told you to see other people. Go out there and get what you need knowing full well that it's unlikely going to be him. Because, really is he's as reserved 5 years from now as he is today would you be happy with that?
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 1:05 PM on June 17, 2015
If you are developing feelings for him, do not keep trying to date other people while still dating him.
Think of the above as advice from yourself a month or two in the future, because I had almost exactly this situation, except we dated longer and he wasn't as honest (well, or married).
The last month or so sucked, don't get me wrong. But just get it over with.
posted by sweetkid at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Think of the above as advice from yourself a month or two in the future, because I had almost exactly this situation, except we dated longer and he wasn't as honest (well, or married).
The last month or so sucked, don't get me wrong. But just get it over with.
posted by sweetkid at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
You've told us the "schedule" of this relationship over the past couple of weeks: what's significant is that there are no weekend dates (that you've mentioned). What's he doing on the weekends??
You've also said that he's over at his ex's several times a week because of his daughter. That's lovely, but he has his own place -- why isn't she going over there for visits?
He's clearly not ready to disentangle himself from his marriage. (However, I disagree with those posters who say as long as somebody is legally married, even if they've been separated for a long time, they're not emotionally available. This is just not always true. Plenty of people in lousy marriages don't leave those marriages until they find somebody else they want to be with, and only then do they separate. And "overlappers" often make the best spouses -- they want to be in a relationship; they don't want to be alone (I know in the USA, in our culture of autonomy, this is considered a bad sign, but I disagree.))
Anyway -- if he were falling in love with you, he would be threatened by your question about seeing other people; but he was not threatened at all. He told you to do what you want. THIS is the greatest measure of his lack of real emotional involvement with you.
Move on or your heart will be broken more and more.
posted by DMelanogaster at 2:18 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
You've also said that he's over at his ex's several times a week because of his daughter. That's lovely, but he has his own place -- why isn't she going over there for visits?
He's clearly not ready to disentangle himself from his marriage. (However, I disagree with those posters who say as long as somebody is legally married, even if they've been separated for a long time, they're not emotionally available. This is just not always true. Plenty of people in lousy marriages don't leave those marriages until they find somebody else they want to be with, and only then do they separate. And "overlappers" often make the best spouses -- they want to be in a relationship; they don't want to be alone (I know in the USA, in our culture of autonomy, this is considered a bad sign, but I disagree.))
Anyway -- if he were falling in love with you, he would be threatened by your question about seeing other people; but he was not threatened at all. He told you to do what you want. THIS is the greatest measure of his lack of real emotional involvement with you.
Move on or your heart will be broken more and more.
posted by DMelanogaster at 2:18 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I asked him what I should do if other people ask me out. He hesitated and said I should go out with other people if I wanted to."
Oh, OP. He gave you about as 100% clear of an indication of his complete and total non-interest in the monogamous, "serious relationship" you're looking for as one can pretty much get. He's shown you who he is. Please believe him.
Also, it would not surprise me in the least if he's still occasionally sleeping with the mother of his child. (Separated but amicable people hooking up occasionally is A Thing.) That would certainly explain his low-ish (maybe conflicted?) sexual interest in you and also would explain what he's been doing with all of his weekends he'd rather not be spending with you.
"I've always felt that if someone wants to be with me I'll know it, i.e. they'll be demonstrative in their affection and want to be with me all the time. That's definitely how I am. I'm really used to men (esp. my ex) actively pursuing me and complimenting me. Basically acting like they think I'm the greatest thing ever, which I love because I never want to be unsure of or have to guess at someone's feelings for me."
Yes! You are absolutely right! People make time for those who are important to them. Love only those men who show you with their actions that they are, without a doubt, very much into you. Don't settle!
posted by hush at 10:09 AM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh, OP. He gave you about as 100% clear of an indication of his complete and total non-interest in the monogamous, "serious relationship" you're looking for as one can pretty much get. He's shown you who he is. Please believe him.
Also, it would not surprise me in the least if he's still occasionally sleeping with the mother of his child. (Separated but amicable people hooking up occasionally is A Thing.) That would certainly explain his low-ish (maybe conflicted?) sexual interest in you and also would explain what he's been doing with all of his weekends he'd rather not be spending with you.
"I've always felt that if someone wants to be with me I'll know it, i.e. they'll be demonstrative in their affection and want to be with me all the time. That's definitely how I am. I'm really used to men (esp. my ex) actively pursuing me and complimenting me. Basically acting like they think I'm the greatest thing ever, which I love because I never want to be unsure of or have to guess at someone's feelings for me."
Yes! You are absolutely right! People make time for those who are important to them. Love only those men who show you with their actions that they are, without a doubt, very much into you. Don't settle!
posted by hush at 10:09 AM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
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Find a guy who's not married, date him, and it will be easier for you.
posted by Floydd at 7:06 PM on June 16, 2015 [12 favorites]