Lye substitues.
November 7, 2014 8:22 AM Subscribe
Can I substitute kansui for lye or baking soda for making pretzels?
I've been playing around with different pretzel recipes this year, trying to find one that works well. So far, they've all called for a baking soda + water boil, then off to baking. The browning of the crust, and subsequent texture seems lackluster in these methods. Upon further research, it seems a lye + water solution is really what is needed to produce really solid browning.
I can't seem to find a place to get small quantities of food grade lye, and I only want to use it for making a batch of pretzels a couple times a year. I don't have space or safe storage with a kiddo around to just have lye kicking about, to be used that infrequently.
However, we make a fair amount of ramen-style noodles at home, so we have a little bottle of kansui. We also have plenty of baking soda kicking around. I'm aware of Harold Mcgee's method of cooking down baking soda to create sodium carbonate as a kansui substitute in ramen noodles. I've used that method before I found kansui to use (which works much better).
Given all that;
-Would McGee's method work better than straight baking soda?
-Would kansui work better than either of baking soda or McGee's sodium carbonate?
I've been playing around with different pretzel recipes this year, trying to find one that works well. So far, they've all called for a baking soda + water boil, then off to baking. The browning of the crust, and subsequent texture seems lackluster in these methods. Upon further research, it seems a lye + water solution is really what is needed to produce really solid browning.
I can't seem to find a place to get small quantities of food grade lye, and I only want to use it for making a batch of pretzels a couple times a year. I don't have space or safe storage with a kiddo around to just have lye kicking about, to be used that infrequently.
However, we make a fair amount of ramen-style noodles at home, so we have a little bottle of kansui. We also have plenty of baking soda kicking around. I'm aware of Harold Mcgee's method of cooking down baking soda to create sodium carbonate as a kansui substitute in ramen noodles. I've used that method before I found kansui to use (which works much better).
Given all that;
-Would McGee's method work better than straight baking soda?
-Would kansui work better than either of baking soda or McGee's sodium carbonate?
Best answer: Interesting...this topic was just covered on The Splendid Table.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:39 AM on November 7, 2014
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:39 AM on November 7, 2014
Best answer: Kansui is a mixture of potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Potassium carbonate is about as strong a base as sodium carbonate (what McGee's method uses). The mixture with sodium bicarbonate (a weak base) is presumably weaker than the straight stuff would be.
I'd say kansui would work, but probably not as well as pure sodium carbonate or food-grade lye. On the other hand it's also likely safer, though I would still wear gloves and exercise other sensible precautions.
posted by jedicus at 8:48 AM on November 7, 2014
I'd say kansui would work, but probably not as well as pure sodium carbonate or food-grade lye. On the other hand it's also likely safer, though I would still wear gloves and exercise other sensible precautions.
posted by jedicus at 8:48 AM on November 7, 2014
I also think it's probably a decent substitution, but I don't know that it will work if you use it to create an alkaline water bath and boil the pretzels first. In that situation, you'll need lots of kansui to make the bath basic enough to get proper browning.
Instead, you might want to experiment with just spraying the shaped pretzels (post-boil if you still want to boil) with a diluted kansui solution just prior to baking. That's more similar to the process used in large-scale pretzel manufacture as well.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:03 AM on November 7, 2014
Instead, you might want to experiment with just spraying the shaped pretzels (post-boil if you still want to boil) with a diluted kansui solution just prior to baking. That's more similar to the process used in large-scale pretzel manufacture as well.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:03 AM on November 7, 2014
I would check etsy to see if anyone is selling small quantities of food-grade lye.
Re baking soda + boiling water, FWIW it's also the lye-alternative suggested by Hans Rockenwagner in his pretzel recipe.
Total long shot: Using a barley malt bath, like you do with bagels, would be an interesting experiment.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:08 AM on November 7, 2014
Re baking soda + boiling water, FWIW it's also the lye-alternative suggested by Hans Rockenwagner in his pretzel recipe.
Total long shot: Using a barley malt bath, like you do with bagels, would be an interesting experiment.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:08 AM on November 7, 2014
If you are interest in resolving the can't-order-small-quantities-of-food-grade-lye problem, you can order 2 lbs at a time from Amazon. The Smitten Kitchen blog talks about working with it in this pretzel post.
posted by charmedimsure at 9:12 AM on November 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by charmedimsure at 9:12 AM on November 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I can't find solid information about this, but Harold McGee (via Fuschia Dunlop, who I trust implicitly) suggest that sodium carbonate, a.k.a. jian, is the Chinese equivalent of kansui, which contains sodium carbonate, Na2CO3 (NOT the same as sodium bicarbonate, a.k.a. baking soda--I wonder if these labels are wrong) and potassium carbonate, K2CO3. Solutions of Na2CO3 and K2CO3have a pH of around 11-11.5. These are less basic than lye because they don't fully ionize (come apart into Na+es and CO3-es) when dissolved in water--some of them remain stuck together as Na2CO3, which can't react with the proteins in your pretzel. Alone or in combination they will still be MUCH more basic than sodium bicarbonate/baking soda, which has a pH of 8.4--the pH scale is logarithmic, so an increase of one pH unit corresponds to a tenfold difference in strength. Going from pH 8.5 to pH 11.5 = 3 pH units = 10 × 10 × 10 = a 1000-fold difference.
Other sources suggest that kansui can also contain phosphoric acid, which doesn't make sense to me because I suspect this would react to release carbon dioxide and form some kind of potassium phosphate, and who knows what potassium phosphate does to your noodles and/or pretzels. It probably also acts as a buffer.
Another source claims kansui has a pH of 13.8, which is on par with lye (NaOH) or another strong base, depending on concentration. They don't provide any chemical explanation. In this case, the kansui they're using may be lye.
Since there is some confusion about the chemical composition of kansui, I would say 1) try it, it's definitely better than baking soda, and 2) you could always get some pH test strips to compare your homemade jian to kansui (or various brands of kansui).
FWIW I handled this by purchasing two pounds of food-grade lye, but I've spent some time working in labs so I'm not concerned about buying or storing lye (and I don't have a toddler).
posted by pullayup at 9:28 AM on November 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Other sources suggest that kansui can also contain phosphoric acid, which doesn't make sense to me because I suspect this would react to release carbon dioxide and form some kind of potassium phosphate, and who knows what potassium phosphate does to your noodles and/or pretzels. It probably also acts as a buffer.
Another source claims kansui has a pH of 13.8, which is on par with lye (NaOH) or another strong base, depending on concentration. They don't provide any chemical explanation. In this case, the kansui they're using may be lye.
Since there is some confusion about the chemical composition of kansui, I would say 1) try it, it's definitely better than baking soda, and 2) you could always get some pH test strips to compare your homemade jian to kansui (or various brands of kansui).
FWIW I handled this by purchasing two pounds of food-grade lye, but I've spent some time working in labs so I'm not concerned about buying or storing lye (and I don't have a toddler).
posted by pullayup at 9:28 AM on November 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I also came in to mention baked baking soda as an alternative to lye. I've never tried it but according to the linked article "It’s not lye, but it’s strong enough to irritate."
posted by usonian at 9:35 AM on November 7, 2014
posted by usonian at 9:35 AM on November 7, 2014
(Ugh, sorry. I got it through my skull after posting that you've already tried baked soda. This is why I should read every question at least 3 or 4 times before responding.)
posted by usonian at 9:41 AM on November 7, 2014
posted by usonian at 9:41 AM on November 7, 2014
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posted by straw at 8:25 AM on November 7, 2014 [1 favorite]