How's about a guy who's not a fuckwad?
November 9, 2005 8:57 PM Subscribe
My best friend in the world is about to move across the country for her asshole boyfriend. What should I do?
Backstory: I love my best friend dearly, but she has a long history of making really bad choices with men. The current boyfriend is a jerk -- nothing criminal, but just generally shitty to her and really, really unpleasant in a variety of ways. They're now planning to move to a city where he has a support system, but that she has never even visited. I should add that they don't currently live in the same city as me, so it's not a personal loss thing for me, but I am really worried about her. Time and again she makes these giant sacrifices for the man in her life, only to wake up to the fact that he's cheating on her/using her/abusive/generally horrible months later. Now she's chucking her whole life (including a really great job that she absolutely loves) for this guy that she's known for less than six months.
I do understand that she's a grown woman and that there's nothing I can do to stop her from doing what ever she chooses to do. She doesn't need me to run her. But the question remains, what IS my role here? I've tried to just be really supportive of her, but she takes that as tacit support of the boyfriend -- even says things like "Everyone else hates [boyfriend], but he's not such a bad guy, since even you like him." Setting her (gently) straight on that point doesn't really get through. She knows I don't think that the move is a good idea at all, but I've tried not to harp on it.
So what do I do? Keep my mouth shut, offer her support? Voice (more strongly) my disapproval? Stage an intervention?
Backstory: I love my best friend dearly, but she has a long history of making really bad choices with men. The current boyfriend is a jerk -- nothing criminal, but just generally shitty to her and really, really unpleasant in a variety of ways. They're now planning to move to a city where he has a support system, but that she has never even visited. I should add that they don't currently live in the same city as me, so it's not a personal loss thing for me, but I am really worried about her. Time and again she makes these giant sacrifices for the man in her life, only to wake up to the fact that he's cheating on her/using her/abusive/generally horrible months later. Now she's chucking her whole life (including a really great job that she absolutely loves) for this guy that she's known for less than six months.
I do understand that she's a grown woman and that there's nothing I can do to stop her from doing what ever she chooses to do. She doesn't need me to run her. But the question remains, what IS my role here? I've tried to just be really supportive of her, but she takes that as tacit support of the boyfriend -- even says things like "Everyone else hates [boyfriend], but he's not such a bad guy, since even you like him." Setting her (gently) straight on that point doesn't really get through. She knows I don't think that the move is a good idea at all, but I've tried not to harp on it.
So what do I do? Keep my mouth shut, offer her support? Voice (more strongly) my disapproval? Stage an intervention?
Tell her you don't think she should move and why, but follow up by saying that you will support whatever decision she makes and that you just have her best interest in mind. She'll move anyway.
Then, you wait to take her teary phone calls when it doesn't work out and be the good friend you are by helping her pick up the pieces. Or, you become a bridemaid/groomsman if it all magically works out.
posted by cyniczny at 9:10 PM on November 9, 2005
Then, you wait to take her teary phone calls when it doesn't work out and be the good friend you are by helping her pick up the pieces. Or, you become a bridemaid/groomsman if it all magically works out.
posted by cyniczny at 9:10 PM on November 9, 2005
I have a simular situation, a person i know is throwing their life away on relationships. I feel the urge to help them but Im not sure if I'm in the right position to. All I can say is do what feels right in your heart.
posted by wheelieman at 9:18 PM on November 9, 2005
posted by wheelieman at 9:18 PM on November 9, 2005
Tell her how you feel. Advise her to carefully consider the choices she is making, especially this one. Remind her that we all learn from our past mistakes, and maybe this is a similar situation to one she's been in before. What happened last time? Does she think it might happen again.
Remind her that in fact, you do not like her boyfriend.
Has she had her job longer than the guy? Remind her that she has priority in her own life.
Tell her that when none of her friends like the guy she's seeing, there's probably a very good reason. Tell her that most women have been in this situation at one time or another, and it's usually a warning bell. I, for one, blithely ignored the DING DING DING he's a jerk DING DING DING.
Then, be a good friend when the teary phone calls start.
posted by Savannah at 10:39 PM on November 9, 2005
Remind her that in fact, you do not like her boyfriend.
Has she had her job longer than the guy? Remind her that she has priority in her own life.
Tell her that when none of her friends like the guy she's seeing, there's probably a very good reason. Tell her that most women have been in this situation at one time or another, and it's usually a warning bell. I, for one, blithely ignored the DING DING DING he's a jerk DING DING DING.
Then, be a good friend when the teary phone calls start.
posted by Savannah at 10:39 PM on November 9, 2005
my (former) best friend of 15 years started a relationship with this guy who was an abusive, violent, retarded criminal. she also had a history of settling for really bad men, and simultaneously blending her identity completely with theirs. i had never said anything in the past regardless of her really bad decisions, and always wished i had warned her with her past boyfriend.
ha ha. so with this new guy, i knew it was the right thing to say something this time around. so i sat her down and very carefully and delicately told her all my concerns, which were all very valid and based on very important decisions. she was upset, but thankful (at the time). but from that point forward, things were just strange. i made a huge effort to include her in social events and to hang out alone with her, but she was distant. two months later, the friendship eventually vaporized into nothing. we also had a huge group of girlfriends in common (but i had met them years ago through her), and i lost them, too.
the irony is that she was a very very cool girl that had gone through a lot, but even my graceful, civilized, caring act she couldn't handle. there were too many new issues opened from that confrontation: resentment, betrayal, and especially embarrassment.
in hindsight, i would have said nothing if i knew she would have trashed our friendship of 15 years for a guy she met 5 months prior. it just wasn't worth it.
so, it's obvious that "the right thing to do" is to tell her of your anguish, but the rammifications of both decisions are very simple:
option 01: voice your disapproval. the friendship will eventually die, whether it's quick, or over a span of time. you may even lose some of the friends you have in common with her.
option 02: say nothing. keep the friendship, but live with your discontent.
i mean, seriously...do you think your girlfriend is going to listen to you and dump him? it just doesn't happen like that. Try to dwell on what you are really going to get out of the dialogue.
If you're through with her friendship, divulge.
If you'd like to stay her friend, shut up and hope that she eventually figures it out on her own that he sucks.
posted by naxosaxur at 10:55 PM on November 9, 2005
ha ha. so with this new guy, i knew it was the right thing to say something this time around. so i sat her down and very carefully and delicately told her all my concerns, which were all very valid and based on very important decisions. she was upset, but thankful (at the time). but from that point forward, things were just strange. i made a huge effort to include her in social events and to hang out alone with her, but she was distant. two months later, the friendship eventually vaporized into nothing. we also had a huge group of girlfriends in common (but i had met them years ago through her), and i lost them, too.
the irony is that she was a very very cool girl that had gone through a lot, but even my graceful, civilized, caring act she couldn't handle. there were too many new issues opened from that confrontation: resentment, betrayal, and especially embarrassment.
in hindsight, i would have said nothing if i knew she would have trashed our friendship of 15 years for a guy she met 5 months prior. it just wasn't worth it.
so, it's obvious that "the right thing to do" is to tell her of your anguish, but the rammifications of both decisions are very simple:
option 01: voice your disapproval. the friendship will eventually die, whether it's quick, or over a span of time. you may even lose some of the friends you have in common with her.
option 02: say nothing. keep the friendship, but live with your discontent.
i mean, seriously...do you think your girlfriend is going to listen to you and dump him? it just doesn't happen like that. Try to dwell on what you are really going to get out of the dialogue.
If you're through with her friendship, divulge.
If you'd like to stay her friend, shut up and hope that she eventually figures it out on her own that he sucks.
posted by naxosaxur at 10:55 PM on November 9, 2005
Be honest, remind her of how she's previously had her hand slammed into the frame of the car by the door.
She probably (overtly) thinks that this is the greatest thing to happen to her. If you can bring her around to ackowledge any doubts that she (may or may not) have, then you're helping her.
Remember, it's about helping her. It is possible that you have a bad read on her current beau and that he's actually a good person.
If she doesn't believe that your interpretation is factual, you may very well lose a close friend (until/unless you're right and she gets burned and needs someone to turn to, sad to say).
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:07 PM on November 9, 2005
She probably (overtly) thinks that this is the greatest thing to happen to her. If you can bring her around to ackowledge any doubts that she (may or may not) have, then you're helping her.
Remember, it's about helping her. It is possible that you have a bad read on her current beau and that he's actually a good person.
If she doesn't believe that your interpretation is factual, you may very well lose a close friend (until/unless you're right and she gets burned and needs someone to turn to, sad to say).
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:07 PM on November 9, 2005
naxosaur isn't their an option 3? Voice your concerns and keep the friendship?
Things don't always have to turn out badly.
posted by oddman at 11:12 PM on November 9, 2005
Things don't always have to turn out badly.
posted by oddman at 11:12 PM on November 9, 2005
Some people people, if they don't know, you can't tell them.
She's under the impression that you like him so, even if all her other friends don't, he's not a bad guy? 1 of 10 friends (or whatever) isn't a good average. If she hasn't gotten that you don't like the guy she's probably choosing not to. My guess is anything more blunt will just cause her to resent you, especially as she won't be able to ignore what she doesn't want to recognize. You could say "Joe is an ass like all the men you date. You would be crazy to move across the country and leave a good job." She'll either dump him and resent you or go with him and resent you, especially when it doesn't work out in a few months or years.
I think if you want to remain friends with her you'll have to accept that she makes these same bad choices over and over. You could attempt to put her well-being ahead of your friendship and force the issue into the open but realize you will likely end the friendship if you do so.
posted by 6550 at 11:52 PM on November 9, 2005
She's under the impression that you like him so, even if all her other friends don't, he's not a bad guy? 1 of 10 friends (or whatever) isn't a good average. If she hasn't gotten that you don't like the guy she's probably choosing not to. My guess is anything more blunt will just cause her to resent you, especially as she won't be able to ignore what she doesn't want to recognize. You could say "Joe is an ass like all the men you date. You would be crazy to move across the country and leave a good job." She'll either dump him and resent you or go with him and resent you, especially when it doesn't work out in a few months or years.
I think if you want to remain friends with her you'll have to accept that she makes these same bad choices over and over. You could attempt to put her well-being ahead of your friendship and force the issue into the open but realize you will likely end the friendship if you do so.
posted by 6550 at 11:52 PM on November 9, 2005
If you're her friend then you should not let her ruin her life. You have a duty to tell her, in the strongest terms possible, that she's making a big mistake. Yes, you are walking dangerous ground so choose your words carefully.
Some other tips:
Do not judge her. Calling her boyfriend a jerk and bringing up her awful past choices is a big no-no. Focus on the 'neutral' issues like leaving her job and her friends/family behind. Don't focus on the past at all, focus on the future. The past is irrelevant. The future is all that matters. Ask her if she really sees herself with this guy in two years or five years or ten years. Make her look before she leaps.
Don't put her under the glass. Rather than focusing the conversation on her, you can focus it on you. Let her know that you're only saying something because you love her and you're so worried about her. Force her to justify her actions to you and make you feel better. Remember, you're not happy because you think she won't be happy so let her make you happy by convincing you that she will be happy. In this context, you can also safely poke holes and offer advice. There's some chance this strategy will backfie but it usually works with good people.
Repeat yourself over and over and over and over. People who are really close to one another (family, married, best friends) don't really listen to each other. Or they may listen and then blow off the conversation because they know what the other person "really means." Make sure she understands exactly where you're coming from by repeating yourself.
It may help to send an email and follow up with a phone call. An email will let you take the time to choose the words carefully and better formulate what you want to tell her.
posted by nixerman at 12:12 AM on November 10, 2005
Some other tips:
Do not judge her. Calling her boyfriend a jerk and bringing up her awful past choices is a big no-no. Focus on the 'neutral' issues like leaving her job and her friends/family behind. Don't focus on the past at all, focus on the future. The past is irrelevant. The future is all that matters. Ask her if she really sees herself with this guy in two years or five years or ten years. Make her look before she leaps.
Don't put her under the glass. Rather than focusing the conversation on her, you can focus it on you. Let her know that you're only saying something because you love her and you're so worried about her. Force her to justify her actions to you and make you feel better. Remember, you're not happy because you think she won't be happy so let her make you happy by convincing you that she will be happy. In this context, you can also safely poke holes and offer advice. There's some chance this strategy will backfie but it usually works with good people.
Repeat yourself over and over and over and over. People who are really close to one another (family, married, best friends) don't really listen to each other. Or they may listen and then blow off the conversation because they know what the other person "really means." Make sure she understands exactly where you're coming from by repeating yourself.
It may help to send an email and follow up with a phone call. An email will let you take the time to choose the words carefully and better formulate what you want to tell her.
posted by nixerman at 12:12 AM on November 10, 2005
If you're her friend, then you owe it to the friendship to say what you think, even if that means she chooses the jerk and cuts you off. Friends live in truth and by the heart.
posted by anadem at 1:06 AM on November 10, 2005
posted by anadem at 1:06 AM on November 10, 2005
If you are her friend, then quite frankly, you ought to be supportive of her and her decisions. That's what she needs - as a friend, your support and trust.
She *chose* to date the guy, at the end of the day. She chose - whether with wide-open eyes or wide-eyed at the prospect of love - to ditch her career and move to another city in another place.
But if you are going to "have it out" with her and criticise her choice, do it calmly, non-emotionally and methodically. List the reasons. The last thing you want to do is to have her end up choosing between her and you - because that will drive a wedge between EVERYONE.
posted by badlydubbedboy at 3:05 AM on November 10, 2005
She *chose* to date the guy, at the end of the day. She chose - whether with wide-open eyes or wide-eyed at the prospect of love - to ditch her career and move to another city in another place.
But if you are going to "have it out" with her and criticise her choice, do it calmly, non-emotionally and methodically. List the reasons. The last thing you want to do is to have her end up choosing between her and you - because that will drive a wedge between EVERYONE.
posted by badlydubbedboy at 3:05 AM on November 10, 2005
Say "I thought you really liked that job?" and leave it at that. People make decisions like this on a deeper level than the rational, and don't like to be reminded of the dissonance. Eventually you may get tired of picking up the pieces, though.
posted by atchafalaya at 3:10 AM on November 10, 2005
posted by atchafalaya at 3:10 AM on November 10, 2005
Voice your concerns but do respect her final decision.
And, be there if/when she needs you.
posted by XiBe at 4:40 AM on November 10, 2005
And, be there if/when she needs you.
posted by XiBe at 4:40 AM on November 10, 2005
If you tell her not to go, and she goes anyway, her pride might keep her in that bad relationship longer than she really wants to be in it. She might think that she has to stick it out just to prove you wrong. That could be the basis of some very nasty happenings.
posted by veedubya at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2005
posted by veedubya at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2005
n+1 for nixerman. Additionally, although it may be hard, I think you should sit down and think long and hard about why you are friends with this particular person. A lot of people (myself included) learn over the years that having someone in their life because of what you think they might become if they just 'grew up' or 'got over it' is a recipie for a frustrating relationship, and a constant power-role struggle which doesn't really put you on even keel with the person.
posted by softlord at 6:14 AM on November 10, 2005
posted by softlord at 6:14 AM on November 10, 2005
She's a-gonna do what she's a-gonna do, and you should be clear about that at the outset so that you can plan how far you want to take your concerns and also so that you are clear about where your responsibility in this case ends.
I think you should have a discussion with her. She may view it as a betrayal, but then it sounds like you would view not talking to her as a betrayal. If I were to have the conversation I would not spend time criticizing the boyfriend, and certainly no time reminding her of past bad choices. Instead I would focus on gently reminding her of the things which she will be giving up/getting into by making the move: you have a really great job, what are you going to do there?; what will it be like to live in a city where you know no one?; what will you do when x is with his friends and you want to be alone?; etc.
posted by OmieWise at 6:19 AM on November 10, 2005
I think you should have a discussion with her. She may view it as a betrayal, but then it sounds like you would view not talking to her as a betrayal. If I were to have the conversation I would not spend time criticizing the boyfriend, and certainly no time reminding her of past bad choices. Instead I would focus on gently reminding her of the things which she will be giving up/getting into by making the move: you have a really great job, what are you going to do there?; what will it be like to live in a city where you know no one?; what will you do when x is with his friends and you want to be alone?; etc.
posted by OmieWise at 6:19 AM on November 10, 2005
It's her life to screw up as she sees fit, even if her choices are different from what yours would be. Tell her ONCE that you're glad he makes her happy, but you wish he treated her better and hope she'll find someone who treats her like gold someday.
Once's she's moved, ask how she's doing, be supportive of her attempts to find a job, maintain her interests, make new friends. Make new friends of your own for a while who are more stable and will not cause you so much anguish/frustration, then wait until she falls on her face so you can support her when the time comes. She will come to this conclusion on her own, or she won't.
Agree with Softlord that fixer-upper friends involve a lot of tongue-biting and subsequent triage support that eventually wears on you, even when they're incredible people who have been a cherished part of your life (especially then). Lecturing and interventions typically don't help, neither do I told you so's. Assess your ability to handle this and be supportive when it happens over and over again, potentially with many guys after this one.
Whether she stays with this one you hate or leaves, probably for many more men you will hate, your friendship with her needs to change so that you can respect her behavior and choices, however irrational and self-defeating they seem. She may never change.
posted by Marnie at 7:14 AM on November 10, 2005
Once's she's moved, ask how she's doing, be supportive of her attempts to find a job, maintain her interests, make new friends. Make new friends of your own for a while who are more stable and will not cause you so much anguish/frustration, then wait until she falls on her face so you can support her when the time comes. She will come to this conclusion on her own, or she won't.
Agree with Softlord that fixer-upper friends involve a lot of tongue-biting and subsequent triage support that eventually wears on you, even when they're incredible people who have been a cherished part of your life (especially then). Lecturing and interventions typically don't help, neither do I told you so's. Assess your ability to handle this and be supportive when it happens over and over again, potentially with many guys after this one.
Whether she stays with this one you hate or leaves, probably for many more men you will hate, your friendship with her needs to change so that you can respect her behavior and choices, however irrational and self-defeating they seem. She may never change.
posted by Marnie at 7:14 AM on November 10, 2005
Like a lot of others have said, she's going to do this, regardless of anything you say to her. And if/when her situation deteriorates, she's going to feel humiliated and might not want to face her friends for fear of "I told you so." As veedubya said, pride might keep her stuck in a bad situation even after she realizes it's bad. So yeah, I wouldn't make too much of a point of telling your best friend that you expect her to wreck her life, because that can make people very stubborn even in the face of reality.
I think you should concentrate on keeping in touch with her after she leaves. If the guy is as big a jerk as you say, he may set about stripping her of all her support -- hell, this move itself may be a step in that direction. Keep in touch frequently, keep calling and writing, even if she starts to slack off with the communication. See if you can arrange a future visit (on your dime, so the boyfriend won't have any excuse to object).
Let her know you'll be there for her if/when it all comes crashing down, but without saying so in so many words, because she'll certainly feel, if not betrayed, then at least insulted. Like I said, if/when it does happen, she's already going to be humiliated enough without having to worry that her best friend will be all "I told you so" (I'm sure you wouldn't ever say that to her, but she'll be dreading it nonetheless, trust me).
posted by Gator at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2005
I think you should concentrate on keeping in touch with her after she leaves. If the guy is as big a jerk as you say, he may set about stripping her of all her support -- hell, this move itself may be a step in that direction. Keep in touch frequently, keep calling and writing, even if she starts to slack off with the communication. See if you can arrange a future visit (on your dime, so the boyfriend won't have any excuse to object).
Let her know you'll be there for her if/when it all comes crashing down, but without saying so in so many words, because she'll certainly feel, if not betrayed, then at least insulted. Like I said, if/when it does happen, she's already going to be humiliated enough without having to worry that her best friend will be all "I told you so" (I'm sure you wouldn't ever say that to her, but she'll be dreading it nonetheless, trust me).
posted by Gator at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2005
There's a lot of good advice here. My experience has always been, both as the friend and as the person who is about to throw her life off the cliff for a sociopath, that she is going to move away with this guy no matter what. Right now, if he skins and eats puppies every morning for breakfast she'll find a way to excuse it. So when (not if) you tell her that you think she's making a mistake, you have to do it gently and realize that she's not going to listen to you and she probably will be upset. But she also probably will come back to you and be glad you said something - although it may take some time. Through the filter of years, I find I value the friends who saw me heading for a train wreck marriage and told me so more than the ones who held their tongues.
About the only thing I have to add, and this is from the perspective of the friend (and in fact I have a friend like this, sigh, and it's tough right now) is don't forget about you in all of this. High maintenance friends get wearing. Being part of their ongoing dramas gets old, and tiring, and while you're doing it you can sometimes neglect your own life, with not so good consequences. So I suggest quietly figuring out exactly how much you're able to give her in terms of emotional and moral, and, yeah, sometimes financial (worst case scenario: she moves with Evil Boyfriend to new city, it's really bad, no job, no life, she calls desperate, you find yourself buying a plane ticket or renting a U-Haul) support. Don't overwhelm yourself for her needs, and make sure you have other friends.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2005
About the only thing I have to add, and this is from the perspective of the friend (and in fact I have a friend like this, sigh, and it's tough right now) is don't forget about you in all of this. High maintenance friends get wearing. Being part of their ongoing dramas gets old, and tiring, and while you're doing it you can sometimes neglect your own life, with not so good consequences. So I suggest quietly figuring out exactly how much you're able to give her in terms of emotional and moral, and, yeah, sometimes financial (worst case scenario: she moves with Evil Boyfriend to new city, it's really bad, no job, no life, she calls desperate, you find yourself buying a plane ticket or renting a U-Haul) support. Don't overwhelm yourself for her needs, and make sure you have other friends.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2005
I'd sit down with her *once* and tell her what you think about what she's doing, using the excellent advice that appears in this thread to frame what you say and how you say it.
If you think she needs counselling, suggest that and be prepared with contact information.
But once you've done those things, you're probably going to need to just step back and let her run her own life. I'd even think carefully before resolving to "be there for her whenever she needs it". Some people are just walking disaster zones, and it's not a good idea to keep pouring endless amounts of support their way. Besides being a waste of resources, it can reinforce their self-destructive behaviour. They never have to take responsibility for their actions because someone keeps bailing them out. They're encouraged to see themselves as helpless victims because everyone else is so sympathetic and nurturing instead of relating to them as equal adults.
With such people, it's a good idea to think about what efforts you're prepared to make on their behalf, to outline these limits for them, and then to stick to them. For instance, when you and your friend talk on the phone or get together, does she take an interest in your life and listen to you a fair percentage of the time, or is the coversation all about her and her problems and do you spend the entire time listening to her? If the latter, I really recommend that you insist on some equity. And I strongly recommend that you don't let yourself be drawn into hours of talk about her relationship. It's never a good idea to let friends use you as an unpaid counsellor.
Of course, I'm well aware that I may be barking up the wrong tree here. Your friend may be a truly great friend. But take a little time to think about your friendship with her anyway. You sound like a caring, giving, active person, and the danger of being that sort of person is that you can overextend yourself in relationships, and this is not healthy for either giver or recipient.
posted by orange swan at 8:30 AM on November 10, 2005
If you think she needs counselling, suggest that and be prepared with contact information.
But once you've done those things, you're probably going to need to just step back and let her run her own life. I'd even think carefully before resolving to "be there for her whenever she needs it". Some people are just walking disaster zones, and it's not a good idea to keep pouring endless amounts of support their way. Besides being a waste of resources, it can reinforce their self-destructive behaviour. They never have to take responsibility for their actions because someone keeps bailing them out. They're encouraged to see themselves as helpless victims because everyone else is so sympathetic and nurturing instead of relating to them as equal adults.
With such people, it's a good idea to think about what efforts you're prepared to make on their behalf, to outline these limits for them, and then to stick to them. For instance, when you and your friend talk on the phone or get together, does she take an interest in your life and listen to you a fair percentage of the time, or is the coversation all about her and her problems and do you spend the entire time listening to her? If the latter, I really recommend that you insist on some equity. And I strongly recommend that you don't let yourself be drawn into hours of talk about her relationship. It's never a good idea to let friends use you as an unpaid counsellor.
Of course, I'm well aware that I may be barking up the wrong tree here. Your friend may be a truly great friend. But take a little time to think about your friendship with her anyway. You sound like a caring, giving, active person, and the danger of being that sort of person is that you can overextend yourself in relationships, and this is not healthy for either giver or recipient.
posted by orange swan at 8:30 AM on November 10, 2005
Honesty is overrated and misunderstood. It doesn't require you to voice every opinion, and it doesn't involve the phrase, "Speak up."
Some lines aren't meant to be crossed, and you're staring at one: Other people's relationships are always off-limits, whether they're friends, family, or strangers. Do you need the litany of reasons? People are complicated. Coins have two sides. You're not her mother. Objectivity is impossible. Glass houses and casting the first stone. Decorum. It's not your job. (It's not anyone's job.) You may lose a friend. Et cetera.
Be a good friend. And be honest. Those are admirable and worthy aspirations. There's absolutely no reason in the world why anyone shouldn't be able to do both, and mind his own damn business.
posted by cribcage at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2005
Some lines aren't meant to be crossed, and you're staring at one: Other people's relationships are always off-limits, whether they're friends, family, or strangers. Do you need the litany of reasons? People are complicated. Coins have two sides. You're not her mother. Objectivity is impossible. Glass houses and casting the first stone. Decorum. It's not your job. (It's not anyone's job.) You may lose a friend. Et cetera.
Be a good friend. And be honest. Those are admirable and worthy aspirations. There's absolutely no reason in the world why anyone shouldn't be able to do both, and mind his own damn business.
posted by cribcage at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2005
A friend of mine was engaged to a woman who had a pronounced habit of belittling him in public.
I determined that, as his friend, it was my duty to tell him in the strongest way possible that he'd regret marrying that woman, even if it cost us our friendship. But they hadn't set a date for the wedding, so I hoped it'd resolve itself without my having to.
Sure enough, he broke up with her not terribly long thereafter and saved me the bother.
But I still think the course I'd committed to was the right one. Good friends say something when a friend is about to do something really dumb and self-destructive.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 11:05 AM on November 10, 2005
I determined that, as his friend, it was my duty to tell him in the strongest way possible that he'd regret marrying that woman, even if it cost us our friendship. But they hadn't set a date for the wedding, so I hoped it'd resolve itself without my having to.
Sure enough, he broke up with her not terribly long thereafter and saved me the bother.
But I still think the course I'd committed to was the right one. Good friends say something when a friend is about to do something really dumb and self-destructive.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 11:05 AM on November 10, 2005
As a single, rarely-in-a-relationship guy, I wasn't going to say anything, but after cribcage, I think I have to. Feel free to ignore as you see fit...
I don't see the line as clearly defined as cribcage. What if the boyfriend was abusing her? Wouldn't you say something then? Why not put in your two cents in what you see as 1) a repeated pattern, and 2) a potentially bad relationship. Why is this such a horrible thing to do? If I were in the situation, and blinded as she is, I would appreciate the input. And what if you had said nothing, and it eventually turns bad? How would you feel if she were to say, "Well, why didn't you say anything?" Just a thought.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 11:50 AM on November 10, 2005
I don't see the line as clearly defined as cribcage. What if the boyfriend was abusing her? Wouldn't you say something then? Why not put in your two cents in what you see as 1) a repeated pattern, and 2) a potentially bad relationship. Why is this such a horrible thing to do? If I were in the situation, and blinded as she is, I would appreciate the input. And what if you had said nothing, and it eventually turns bad? How would you feel if she were to say, "Well, why didn't you say anything?" Just a thought.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 11:50 AM on November 10, 2005
If I were in the situation, and blinded as she is, I would appreciate the input. And what if you had said nothing, and it eventually turns bad? How would you feel if she were to say, "Well, why didn't you say anything?"
I was in a somewhat-similar situation going into my marriage. My ex-hub isn't nearly the jerk the bf in this scenario sounds like, but let's just say it really wasn't going to be a marriage that worked out. Among all my friends and family, every single one of them thought the marriage was a bad idea, and every single one of them kept silent till after my divorce.
I was furious. Furious! I couldn't believe it: no one mentioned their concerns? Not one? Not a single sibling or parent? Not my best friend from college? NOT ONE? My god, had someone - anyone - been both honest and gentle with me, it might have validated the secret voice inside of me saying "help! help! help!" and maybe even given me the courage to call off the wedding.
posted by fizzyliftingdrink at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2005
I was in a somewhat-similar situation going into my marriage. My ex-hub isn't nearly the jerk the bf in this scenario sounds like, but let's just say it really wasn't going to be a marriage that worked out. Among all my friends and family, every single one of them thought the marriage was a bad idea, and every single one of them kept silent till after my divorce.
I was furious. Furious! I couldn't believe it: no one mentioned their concerns? Not one? Not a single sibling or parent? Not my best friend from college? NOT ONE? My god, had someone - anyone - been both honest and gentle with me, it might have validated the secret voice inside of me saying "help! help! help!" and maybe even given me the courage to call off the wedding.
posted by fizzyliftingdrink at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2005
There are precisely two correct options: support her unconditionally, without editorializing, or drop her as a friend.
That said, do what will make you sleep best at night. If that means letting her know what you really think, go for it - it'll probably make no difference in what she does, although it may make her think ill of you.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2005
That said, do what will make you sleep best at night. If that means letting her know what you really think, go for it - it'll probably make no difference in what she does, although it may make her think ill of you.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2005
I strongly disagree with the shut-up-or-walk-away crowd. There's a swath of middle ground to consider, and given reasonable tact and grace you can probably find a spot there.
In similar situations I've had best experiences with the sort of behavior suggested by OmieWise , Marnie, and others. Recognize that what she does is her own business; don't insult the person she loves, but do voice your concern for her. Once. Don't dwell on it.
As several people have pointed out, sometimes the only option is to step away from people who demand your involvement in chronically mismanaged lives. If, as you're expecting, her situation deteriorates and she eventually starts leaning on you constantly for emotional support or other help, you can then decide how best to proceed.
posted by tangerine at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2005
In similar situations I've had best experiences with the sort of behavior suggested by OmieWise , Marnie, and others. Recognize that what she does is her own business; don't insult the person she loves, but do voice your concern for her. Once. Don't dwell on it.
As several people have pointed out, sometimes the only option is to step away from people who demand your involvement in chronically mismanaged lives. If, as you're expecting, her situation deteriorates and she eventually starts leaning on you constantly for emotional support or other help, you can then decide how best to proceed.
posted by tangerine at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2005
Later on, if her relationship really goes south, she's not going to blame you for not saying anything.
When I think of the couple of times I've had your point of view about friends' boyfriends... nothing I said ever changed anybody's mind. I suppose if I could go back in time, I'd leave it at, "That's a big decision. Do you have any doubts?"
If you're concerned that you ought to correct the impression that you like the guy, you can do that. How about: "You think I like him, but actually I don't know him well enough. You're the one that really knows how things are between you. Follow your instincts."
Good luck. You're in a tough spot.
posted by wryly at 4:49 PM on November 10, 2005
When I think of the couple of times I've had your point of view about friends' boyfriends... nothing I said ever changed anybody's mind. I suppose if I could go back in time, I'd leave it at, "That's a big decision. Do you have any doubts?"
If you're concerned that you ought to correct the impression that you like the guy, you can do that. How about: "You think I like him, but actually I don't know him well enough. You're the one that really knows how things are between you. Follow your instincts."
Good luck. You're in a tough spot.
posted by wryly at 4:49 PM on November 10, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by oddman at 9:06 PM on November 9, 2005