How can I deal with my friends getting older and turning into "adults"?
July 10, 2013 9:01 PM Subscribe
How can I deal with my friends getting older and turning into, for lack of a better term, "adults"?
I'm twenty-eight. All of the friends in question are roughly the same age, give or take two or three years. Recently, a sort of schism has developed between two factions. One group are planning to start families soon, so they are thinking of things like mortgages, what companies have good childcare benefits, and which suburb to move to. The other group (in which I include myself) isn't really living differently from when we were fresh out of school, with concerns centered on trendy neighborhoods, travel plans, and career aspirations.
I find it increasingly alienating to be around members of the former, more "adult" group (I don't mean to be snarky with the scare quotes, but I'm not sure how else to refer to them). It was only a few years ago that we all had more or less the same aspirations, we all spent our time in similar ways and had the same priorities, and so we implicitly understood one another. Now I can't shake the feeling that some of my friends have been replaced by strangers. We spend less time together, because the "adults" among us spend the majority of their time with their partners. They also spend money differently, because they're saving for a house or a wedding, and so are less likely to indulge in dinner or a drink. Personally, I really don't feel I've changed much, socially/culturally, since I was 23, except that I now have more expendable income and stability.
There's also the issue of children. A few women in the group (I'm a man) are in the no-children camp. At least one woman in the pro-children camp is very adamantly pro-children, and has told the no-children camp that she thinks such a lifestyle is "selfish." This resulted in a back-and-forth argument with hurt feelings all around, and served to underscore the split in the group.
I'm not trying to declare one group "right" and the other "wrong" by any means – I guess this is one of those inevitable things that happens as you get older – but what's a good way to deal with it? Can we keep being friends, or will we just drift apart naturally? What's the best way to respond to "lifestyle" arguments like the one mentioned above? Can someone give me the other side's perspective?
I'm twenty-eight. All of the friends in question are roughly the same age, give or take two or three years. Recently, a sort of schism has developed between two factions. One group are planning to start families soon, so they are thinking of things like mortgages, what companies have good childcare benefits, and which suburb to move to. The other group (in which I include myself) isn't really living differently from when we were fresh out of school, with concerns centered on trendy neighborhoods, travel plans, and career aspirations.
I find it increasingly alienating to be around members of the former, more "adult" group (I don't mean to be snarky with the scare quotes, but I'm not sure how else to refer to them). It was only a few years ago that we all had more or less the same aspirations, we all spent our time in similar ways and had the same priorities, and so we implicitly understood one another. Now I can't shake the feeling that some of my friends have been replaced by strangers. We spend less time together, because the "adults" among us spend the majority of their time with their partners. They also spend money differently, because they're saving for a house or a wedding, and so are less likely to indulge in dinner or a drink. Personally, I really don't feel I've changed much, socially/culturally, since I was 23, except that I now have more expendable income and stability.
There's also the issue of children. A few women in the group (I'm a man) are in the no-children camp. At least one woman in the pro-children camp is very adamantly pro-children, and has told the no-children camp that she thinks such a lifestyle is "selfish." This resulted in a back-and-forth argument with hurt feelings all around, and served to underscore the split in the group.
I'm not trying to declare one group "right" and the other "wrong" by any means – I guess this is one of those inevitable things that happens as you get older – but what's a good way to deal with it? Can we keep being friends, or will we just drift apart naturally? What's the best way to respond to "lifestyle" arguments like the one mentioned above? Can someone give me the other side's perspective?
I personally never see any value in remaining friends with people who feel they have the right to tell me what to do with my own body, or who try to make me feel bad about not wanting the same things they do out of life.
You will probably have an easier time remaining friends with the people who aren't assholes, regardless of their child-having choices.
posted by elizardbits at 9:05 PM on July 10, 2013 [25 favorites]
You will probably have an easier time remaining friends with the people who aren't assholes, regardless of their child-having choices.
posted by elizardbits at 9:05 PM on July 10, 2013 [25 favorites]
You're probably going to drift apart for a while until their kids get older and they actually have time for things beyond sleeping and dealing with kid bullshit. Tis ever thus, I've found.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:08 PM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:08 PM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
Childless people are an important part of any community. They have more time and resources to give _to_ the community, provided they have good friends (or family) and strong, caring connections.
Childless people aren't necessarily selfish, although of course there are some selfish childless people just like there are selfish parents.
Your friend is reflecting a popular opinion, especially among some churched people, or so I've heard. Since she's not the inventor or originator of this idea, please have just enough patience to try to open her eyes and heart a little.
Lots of valuable contributions to our civilization and community and to our world have been made by childless people. I don't have a long list of examples handy, but you could always mention Jesus.
posted by amtho at 9:08 PM on July 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
Childless people aren't necessarily selfish, although of course there are some selfish childless people just like there are selfish parents.
Your friend is reflecting a popular opinion, especially among some churched people, or so I've heard. Since she's not the inventor or originator of this idea, please have just enough patience to try to open her eyes and heart a little.
Lots of valuable contributions to our civilization and community and to our world have been made by childless people. I don't have a long list of examples handy, but you could always mention Jesus.
posted by amtho at 9:08 PM on July 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
I'm afraid drifting apart is the typical outcome. It's not anyone's fault, it's just how things often play out. When people are mostly devoting themselves to nesting, they tend to spend their time with other couples, and, if children come, that, naturally, becomes the focus of their attention. If you're friends with them, and living the single lifestyle, it slowly gets harder to even see each other. And over the years you often grow apart as people, too, since you actually do value different things in life.
posted by thelonius at 9:12 PM on July 10, 2013
posted by thelonius at 9:12 PM on July 10, 2013
You cannot control the lives that other people lead, so don't try. The happiest and the most generous thing you can do right now is to hope that all of your friends get the lives they seek and are most satisfied by, even if you can't relate to the structure or function of those lives in any way. Most friendships have orbits -- sometimes you and certain people have such tremendous gravitational pulls towards one another that your orbits never fall out of sync and they are lifetime friends you never have any time away from; with others, you are friends for a time until that initial pull dissipates and then you aren't friends anymore; with others still, you have a true orbit, which is to say that you are close sometimes and far away in others, but you ultimately find your way back to each other eventually, and that can be just as satisfying as having a friend whose orbit with never changes. It's okay to drift apart only to drift back together again. Your lives will all become what they need to be regardless, so go with the flow and do what you can to make every moment count anyway.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2013 [26 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2013 [26 favorites]
As with any relationship, if your "adult" friends value your friendship and you theirs, you'll figure it out. I've lost touch with some friends as they've "settled down" while I've grown closer to others.
Also keep in mind that plans change, sometimes dramatically. My crazy friend from college has a seven year old daughter. And being an adult means different things to different people. My dad had four kids and a mortgage by 36. That's not in the cards for me but I have minimal debt and am working in my field. Not too shabby, in my opinion.
And I've never understood the "child-free people are selfish" idea. In some ways, I think having a kid is one of the most narcissistic things one can do. But YMMV. A friend dumped another friend because she kept telling her to have kids ASAP.
posted by kat518 at 9:19 PM on July 10, 2013
Also keep in mind that plans change, sometimes dramatically. My crazy friend from college has a seven year old daughter. And being an adult means different things to different people. My dad had four kids and a mortgage by 36. That's not in the cards for me but I have minimal debt and am working in my field. Not too shabby, in my opinion.
And I've never understood the "child-free people are selfish" idea. In some ways, I think having a kid is one of the most narcissistic things one can do. But YMMV. A friend dumped another friend because she kept telling her to have kids ASAP.
posted by kat518 at 9:19 PM on July 10, 2013
Best answer: This is a really hard time, especially because making friends is never going to be easy again. This is probably the first (maybe second, if your high school peers split hard between college/not or fancy college/state school) of these waves you will go through.
The people you can't relate to or who can't relate to you, let them go, but loosely - if you can forgive them for a little dumb righteousness that may fade in time. Things will be drastically different again around 33, when the early child-havers get their lives back a little, the later-starters (who may be your main social group until then) start having kids, and the probably-not-ever-having-kids people start to really settle into whatever that means for the shape of their lives - could be hardcore career-ing, could be vagabonding, could be childless homesteading, could be [insert some thing that isn't even a thing right now, putting nanobots in their ears or hanging out on the moon or whatever].
And you? Could fall into any of those categories by 33. You might still be doing what you're doing today, you might have kids or a partner with kids or a job on the moon or ears full of nanobots. You will probably have a whole new raft of friends you fall in with over the next few years, people more like you, but not all of these people will be gone.
It's hard and it can be lonely sometimes, but it is very likely that a couple of really long-term friends will shake out from this time. Be open to everything that comes along. Keep your eyes open for the person who wants to parent AND still do [shared activity], enjoy your friends' kids if you can, because those little bastards are going to be making you feel old as dirt in ten years. This is a good time to start casting off cliqueishness, if you can, and start learning to love all kinds of people with varying levels of presence in your life.
I don't have kids and I'm 40, so I'm now on my third wave of kid-having among some people I know, and also high school graduations, and grandkids. A lot of people have kids, and you're losing out if you cut all those people off even if they go through phases of being totally wrapped up in parenting (I mean, it's not like that's hurting the kids, you know?). It'll be okay and it will work out, and you don't have to hang around for crap from people, but leave a little room for them to change, because that's the one thing you can count on people to do.
I would say just back off from those "arguments", as they are bullshit. Focus on the people who are nicer to you, but don't mark anyone dead to you forever just yet.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:25 PM on July 10, 2013 [52 favorites]
The people you can't relate to or who can't relate to you, let them go, but loosely - if you can forgive them for a little dumb righteousness that may fade in time. Things will be drastically different again around 33, when the early child-havers get their lives back a little, the later-starters (who may be your main social group until then) start having kids, and the probably-not-ever-having-kids people start to really settle into whatever that means for the shape of their lives - could be hardcore career-ing, could be vagabonding, could be childless homesteading, could be [insert some thing that isn't even a thing right now, putting nanobots in their ears or hanging out on the moon or whatever].
And you? Could fall into any of those categories by 33. You might still be doing what you're doing today, you might have kids or a partner with kids or a job on the moon or ears full of nanobots. You will probably have a whole new raft of friends you fall in with over the next few years, people more like you, but not all of these people will be gone.
It's hard and it can be lonely sometimes, but it is very likely that a couple of really long-term friends will shake out from this time. Be open to everything that comes along. Keep your eyes open for the person who wants to parent AND still do [shared activity], enjoy your friends' kids if you can, because those little bastards are going to be making you feel old as dirt in ten years. This is a good time to start casting off cliqueishness, if you can, and start learning to love all kinds of people with varying levels of presence in your life.
I don't have kids and I'm 40, so I'm now on my third wave of kid-having among some people I know, and also high school graduations, and grandkids. A lot of people have kids, and you're losing out if you cut all those people off even if they go through phases of being totally wrapped up in parenting (I mean, it's not like that's hurting the kids, you know?). It'll be okay and it will work out, and you don't have to hang around for crap from people, but leave a little room for them to change, because that's the one thing you can count on people to do.
I would say just back off from those "arguments", as they are bullshit. Focus on the people who are nicer to you, but don't mark anyone dead to you forever just yet.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:25 PM on July 10, 2013 [52 favorites]
i find value being friends with people that have taken a different path and live a different type of lifestyle from me. it allows me a moment to drop in, check up on what that road is like, then return back to the life that i have created for myself. sure, it may be hard to relate but sometimes that's the whole point - you find out about the nitty gritty of their world and they can tap back into the one they left behind. this type of relating isn't something you uphold on a daily basis so much as a once a week/month/every six months type deal, depending on how open minded they are about their choices and yours.
also - there is no such thing as a selfish lifestyle. life is what you make of it, because it is YOURS to make. (personally i find some parents think they are being selfless because they gave up all this supposed freedom to have kids, when really all they can talk about is their children. how selfish is that??)
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 9:26 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
also - there is no such thing as a selfish lifestyle. life is what you make of it, because it is YOURS to make. (personally i find some parents think they are being selfless because they gave up all this supposed freedom to have kids, when really all they can talk about is their children. how selfish is that??)
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 9:26 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
For a time, I stayed friends with my best friend from college though I got married, had kids, etc. and she went to college, had affairs with zero potential for marriage, etc. We even managed to see each other once when I was living in Germany and she traveled to visit family.
It depends a lot on how accommodating you are willing to be of their new responsibilities and time constraints. If you feel that giving a bit more so you can be ijvolved with kids and stuff is worth it, it can still be enriching. They probably are suggesting you are "selfish" as a way of indirectly complaining about how you inadvertently pressure them to keep spending like a singleton. If you are cool with going to their place, helping to cook dinner, talking with kids under foot, etc they may still value having contact with regular adults and not letting babby just swallow them. But this only works if you accommodate the fact they no longer have the money, time or energy to party, eat out at restaurants, etc like a singleton.
I wished I could have maintained more friendships but my single, childless friends just didn't get it. If you feel it is a burden and no fun to make some accommodation for the reality that kids etc means less play money, then these friendships will probably die. But it wouldn't really be an evil thing if you cooked a meal with friends at their place and found you had a few bucks leftover because of not hitting a restaurant quite so often.
I like having a diversity of friends but it only works if those folks with more flexibility give a bit more instead of pressuring folks with other responsibilities to just cut loose like they can afford it when they really can't. My husband continued gaming after we had kids. We had our own place and that was an asset to the gaming group of mostly singletons. When we were teens, finding a place to game was an ongoing challenge. So the married folks and their boring mortgages can also be an asset, though that may not always be obvious.
Please excuse me if the tone sounds critical of you. I do not mean to be. Short version: If you to want remain friends and are willing to use your greater flexibility to accommodate their greater need for stability, you might find this an enriching growth experience with unexpected benefits. But if you want your "adult" friends to just remain carefree playmates, then, hey, yeah, this is doomed. That won't happen. When push comes to shove, their responsibilities will get first dibs on their time, energy and money.
posted by Michele in California at 9:36 PM on July 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
It depends a lot on how accommodating you are willing to be of their new responsibilities and time constraints. If you feel that giving a bit more so you can be ijvolved with kids and stuff is worth it, it can still be enriching. They probably are suggesting you are "selfish" as a way of indirectly complaining about how you inadvertently pressure them to keep spending like a singleton. If you are cool with going to their place, helping to cook dinner, talking with kids under foot, etc they may still value having contact with regular adults and not letting babby just swallow them. But this only works if you accommodate the fact they no longer have the money, time or energy to party, eat out at restaurants, etc like a singleton.
I wished I could have maintained more friendships but my single, childless friends just didn't get it. If you feel it is a burden and no fun to make some accommodation for the reality that kids etc means less play money, then these friendships will probably die. But it wouldn't really be an evil thing if you cooked a meal with friends at their place and found you had a few bucks leftover because of not hitting a restaurant quite so often.
I like having a diversity of friends but it only works if those folks with more flexibility give a bit more instead of pressuring folks with other responsibilities to just cut loose like they can afford it when they really can't. My husband continued gaming after we had kids. We had our own place and that was an asset to the gaming group of mostly singletons. When we were teens, finding a place to game was an ongoing challenge. So the married folks and their boring mortgages can also be an asset, though that may not always be obvious.
Please excuse me if the tone sounds critical of you. I do not mean to be. Short version: If you to want remain friends and are willing to use your greater flexibility to accommodate their greater need for stability, you might find this an enriching growth experience with unexpected benefits. But if you want your "adult" friends to just remain carefree playmates, then, hey, yeah, this is doomed. That won't happen. When push comes to shove, their responsibilities will get first dibs on their time, energy and money.
posted by Michele in California at 9:36 PM on July 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted; I know that people have strong feelings about having vs not having kids, but this is absolutely not the place to debate whether parents or nonparents are selfish.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:39 PM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:39 PM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't think of it necessarily as choosing between two factions. Most "group friendships" split up eventually, especially when multiple members of the group are going through major life changes (whether it's graduating or buying a house or getting married or having kids or joining the astronaut program and going to the moon.)
So, if I were you, I'd ask myself this: which individuals in this group of pals am I really close with, or want to be closer with in the foreseeable future? Which people in this group do I really want in my life, even if all we're doing with each other is meeting once a month and splitting a bottle of wine while their kids run around and yell in the other room? Who would I still want to call or email in a year if they got their dream job across the country tomorrow? (Personally, someone who thought I was selfish for making a life choice that doesn't hurt anyone would probably not make this cut.) And then, start cultivating those friendships.
posted by kagredon at 9:49 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
So, if I were you, I'd ask myself this: which individuals in this group of pals am I really close with, or want to be closer with in the foreseeable future? Which people in this group do I really want in my life, even if all we're doing with each other is meeting once a month and splitting a bottle of wine while their kids run around and yell in the other room? Who would I still want to call or email in a year if they got their dream job across the country tomorrow? (Personally, someone who thought I was selfish for making a life choice that doesn't hurt anyone would probably not make this cut.) And then, start cultivating those friendships.
posted by kagredon at 9:49 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Meet younger friends.
posted by empath at 9:51 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 9:51 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Basically, you should do whatever you want to do, hang out with whoever you want to, and and also respect everybody whether they agree with you or not. The person in the question is not doing this, but that's their problem, not yours. Just ignore them.
I think it's always easier to make and keep good friends when I am more straightforward in my approach and not parsing things into sides. Kind of hard work at times, but worth it.
Also, nothing is really stable for ever. It might seem like your 20s could be a social foundation for your 30s and 40s, but that is not necessarily the case; as you say, people change, and the difference between 23 and 30 will only be bigger when you get to 40.
posted by carter at 9:59 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it's always easier to make and keep good friends when I am more straightforward in my approach and not parsing things into sides. Kind of hard work at times, but worth it.
Also, nothing is really stable for ever. It might seem like your 20s could be a social foundation for your 30s and 40s, but that is not necessarily the case; as you say, people change, and the difference between 23 and 30 will only be bigger when you get to 40.
posted by carter at 9:59 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Kids are all consuming little buggers even before you get pregnant. Many, probably most, friends who embark on parenthood are going to be out of the social circuit for awhile. It's just the way it is. For the next decade or so you're going to have friends break out of the existing social group and do the parent thing. Accept it and wish them well. There's nothing else to be done.
As to your friend who declared other people selfish? I'd probably just drop her because I don't play nicely with bossy, judgemental jerks. Actually, first I'd tell her that she might be a mom, but she isn't my mom so she can STFU about my family planning choices. But right after that I'd drop her.
posted by 26.2 at 10:22 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
As to your friend who declared other people selfish? I'd probably just drop her because I don't play nicely with bossy, judgemental jerks. Actually, first I'd tell her that she might be a mom, but she isn't my mom so she can STFU about my family planning choices. But right after that I'd drop her.
posted by 26.2 at 10:22 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Meet more gay friends.
posted by converge at 12:44 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by converge at 12:44 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree with others that yours is a funny life stage and one that can seem very divisive but I think you will really regret it if you start limiting your social group down to people who make the same decisions as you at exactly the same time. I am 31 and 3 years ago was childfree, unmarried and renting. I'm still childfree but now married and homeowning. I'm still the same person though and I still really value all of my friends and all of their different perspectives.
I have friends all over the scale - from those full time parenting and working on their second kids to those throwing everything into their careers, or those long-term travelling and teaching English. I love hearing all of their different stories and dreams. It actually makes life more interesting than it was in my late 20s when everyone was a lot more samey and we all just hung out in pubs every weekend.
Holding onto as many people a possible that I've felt liked and felt a strong connection with, no matter how different from me, has been a great strategy for me. I think in 5 years time we'll be even more diverse and have even more to share and teach each other.
OTOH judging each others choices is not cool and I would drop people who did that if I were you and monitor myself carefully to check I wasn't doing the same in the other direction.
posted by Dorothia at 12:57 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have friends all over the scale - from those full time parenting and working on their second kids to those throwing everything into their careers, or those long-term travelling and teaching English. I love hearing all of their different stories and dreams. It actually makes life more interesting than it was in my late 20s when everyone was a lot more samey and we all just hung out in pubs every weekend.
Holding onto as many people a possible that I've felt liked and felt a strong connection with, no matter how different from me, has been a great strategy for me. I think in 5 years time we'll be even more diverse and have even more to share and teach each other.
OTOH judging each others choices is not cool and I would drop people who did that if I were you and monitor myself carefully to check I wasn't doing the same in the other direction.
posted by Dorothia at 12:57 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't focus too much on divisions because there will be more of those. Between 28-35 people start to get grip of their personal health demands and maintenance. Their bodies start to react differently to shared habits of your group and they need to listen to that.
There will be people who stop drinking and late-nighting and people who start to do too much of that. Also with exercise, there will be people who can't participate in sporty activities and people who won't participate other stuff because of their demanding exercise regime. These things become serious and override 'fun with friends' as a reason for doing stuff.
posted by Free word order! at 1:01 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
There will be people who stop drinking and late-nighting and people who start to do too much of that. Also with exercise, there will be people who can't participate in sporty activities and people who won't participate other stuff because of their demanding exercise regime. These things become serious and override 'fun with friends' as a reason for doing stuff.
posted by Free word order! at 1:01 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
No one should be telling you what to do with your life, and if anyone calls you "selfish" for wanting to follow a particular route I would advise you to dump them! To me, calling someone selfish for not having children is just so stupid I wouldn't even engage with it by arguing with her or trying to change her opinion using logic. She's obviously being illogical and judgemental.
On to the bigger question of dealing with friends' life-changes: I am a little older than you (30) and I am and have been at the same point in my life for some time. A lot of close friends of mine are getting married and having children, while I am not... But in most cases this has not affected our relationships. In fact, in most cases I really love hearing about their experiences and being Cool Aunty Ziggy to their kids, and they similarly like to hear about my own ongoing stuff (travel, homeownership, relationships, work). I truly think that if you're really friends with people, you'll be friends with them no matter what is going on in your lives.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:14 AM on July 11, 2013
On to the bigger question of dealing with friends' life-changes: I am a little older than you (30) and I am and have been at the same point in my life for some time. A lot of close friends of mine are getting married and having children, while I am not... But in most cases this has not affected our relationships. In fact, in most cases I really love hearing about their experiences and being Cool Aunty Ziggy to their kids, and they similarly like to hear about my own ongoing stuff (travel, homeownership, relationships, work). I truly think that if you're really friends with people, you'll be friends with them no matter what is going on in your lives.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:14 AM on July 11, 2013
Meet more gay friends.
posted by converge at 8:44 AM on July 11 [+] [!]
I don't know about you but all my gay friends are getting married and planning kids too.
posted by olinerd at 4:43 AM on July 11, 2013 [17 favorites]
posted by converge at 8:44 AM on July 11 [+] [!]
I don't know about you but all my gay friends are getting married and planning kids too.
posted by olinerd at 4:43 AM on July 11, 2013 [17 favorites]
This is pretty normal. (Not the woman pushing the pro-child, have babies thing. She's being ridiculous.) People grow and change at different rates. I was in your shoes, only I was 27. I was one of the ones who wasn't ready to settle down and get a mortgage and all that stuff, and I sort of resented my friends who made that transition so "early". Their change in priorities and interests changed our dynamic and I felt a bit like it ruined everything. I also felt like some of them (one in particular) really flaunted it all in my face. She spoke of nothing else beside her partner, her house, her desire to have kids, etc. and had a very "Oh, you wouldn't understand.." smug attitude about it all. Because of her being an asshat I developed a bit of a resentment for EVERYONE my age who had moved in to a more grown up lifestyle. My relationships with the "grown up" lifestyle people fizzled and I moved more towards people whose interests were more aligned with mine. I strongly feel those relationships didn't need to fizzle, that was my fault. I was just so turned off by it all because of the smug woman that I tarred everyone with the same brush.
When I turned 29 I got in to what was clearly my forever relationship, I was very secure in my career, and now I am all "Ohhhh.... I get it....". I wasn't ready to transition to that part of life back then, but I am now. I have my soon-to-be husband and my house and mortgage and step son and RRSP, and I am happy as all get out, and back then I NEVER would have thought I'd be so happy living such a "grown up" life. In some cases I've been able to reconnect with some of my old friends who transitioned before I did. I have NOT reconnected with the smug "Oh you wouldn't understand..." woman because she was an ass then, and she is still an ass now. Her getting a husband and a house and wanting a babay didn't make her an ass, she was an ass already, it was just a really solid way for her to be an ass.
So my short answer is this.
The very best thing you can do is maintain your relationship with your adult friends as best you can. You definitely don't have to drift apart. They likely aren't going to be your main friend group, but you can still stay in contact, occasionally visit back and forth, and keep up to date with each others' lives. For the time being they will likely be more of a "talking" friend instead of a "doing" friend. You should continue to live however you want, you are just going to have to seek out some more friends who share your interests and priorities. Someday your priorities and interests may shift as well, and you may become one of the 'adult' people yourself, at which point you will be able to reclaim that "implicitly know each other" thing again with the adult friends.
As for the woman pushing the baby thing... yeah, she is being really judgemental and disrespectful. For me, if I were you, my way of handling it would be to call her out on it ("Wow, you are being incredibly disrespectful! You have no right to declare one person's choice as "selfish" just because you have chosen differently. I am sure there are people who disagree with some of YOUR life choices, but people aren't running around telling YOU how selfish and wrong you are. Maybe you should do a little thinking on that, and then maybe you should treat people with a little more respect.") and I would stop hanging out with them because seriously, that is not okay.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:07 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
When I turned 29 I got in to what was clearly my forever relationship, I was very secure in my career, and now I am all "Ohhhh.... I get it....". I wasn't ready to transition to that part of life back then, but I am now. I have my soon-to-be husband and my house and mortgage and step son and RRSP, and I am happy as all get out, and back then I NEVER would have thought I'd be so happy living such a "grown up" life. In some cases I've been able to reconnect with some of my old friends who transitioned before I did. I have NOT reconnected with the smug "Oh you wouldn't understand..." woman because she was an ass then, and she is still an ass now. Her getting a husband and a house and wanting a babay didn't make her an ass, she was an ass already, it was just a really solid way for her to be an ass.
So my short answer is this.
The very best thing you can do is maintain your relationship with your adult friends as best you can. You definitely don't have to drift apart. They likely aren't going to be your main friend group, but you can still stay in contact, occasionally visit back and forth, and keep up to date with each others' lives. For the time being they will likely be more of a "talking" friend instead of a "doing" friend. You should continue to live however you want, you are just going to have to seek out some more friends who share your interests and priorities. Someday your priorities and interests may shift as well, and you may become one of the 'adult' people yourself, at which point you will be able to reclaim that "implicitly know each other" thing again with the adult friends.
As for the woman pushing the baby thing... yeah, she is being really judgemental and disrespectful. For me, if I were you, my way of handling it would be to call her out on it ("Wow, you are being incredibly disrespectful! You have no right to declare one person's choice as "selfish" just because you have chosen differently. I am sure there are people who disagree with some of YOUR life choices, but people aren't running around telling YOU how selfish and wrong you are. Maybe you should do a little thinking on that, and then maybe you should treat people with a little more respect.") and I would stop hanging out with them because seriously, that is not okay.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:07 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Also, knowing how to have a good time cheaply is a life skill, whether your friends are striving to emulate the Duggars or you're hoarding cash to take a year-long coke binge. I actually think my younger, less adult friends need to save money more often because they're only dealing with one income but YMMV.
posted by kat518 at 5:11 AM on July 11, 2013
posted by kat518 at 5:11 AM on July 11, 2013
In matters of taste and preference, there isn't a 'right' answer.
Every now and then, I run into someone who is adamantly pro-kid and condemning of those who opt out. I used to condemn people who added to the overpopulation of the planet, too. Of the two, my position had a supportable argument in its favor that suggested having kids was actually the more selfish path. For every other pro, there is a con. The individual assigns priority and value.
Personally, I am happy with my no kids choice, and just as happy watching my friends raise their kids and frankly, I am in awe of how they manage to give so much for so long. At the same time, it's open ended giving. There is NO GUARANTEE that the purported benefits of raising kids will materialize. Nursing homes bulge with former 'non-selfish' parents. Kids don't ask to be here, and you may wind up unhappier having had them, as well as poorer. No guarantees.
Nothing stands still. Groups form, dissolve, grow, shrink and the individuals in them react to the environment differently and over time. This kid thing is only one aspect of group dynamics, based on one issue. Expect to see it often and everywhere.
posted by FauxScot at 5:14 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Every now and then, I run into someone who is adamantly pro-kid and condemning of those who opt out. I used to condemn people who added to the overpopulation of the planet, too. Of the two, my position had a supportable argument in its favor that suggested having kids was actually the more selfish path. For every other pro, there is a con. The individual assigns priority and value.
Personally, I am happy with my no kids choice, and just as happy watching my friends raise their kids and frankly, I am in awe of how they manage to give so much for so long. At the same time, it's open ended giving. There is NO GUARANTEE that the purported benefits of raising kids will materialize. Nursing homes bulge with former 'non-selfish' parents. Kids don't ask to be here, and you may wind up unhappier having had them, as well as poorer. No guarantees.
Nothing stands still. Groups form, dissolve, grow, shrink and the individuals in them react to the environment differently and over time. This kid thing is only one aspect of group dynamics, based on one issue. Expect to see it often and everywhere.
posted by FauxScot at 5:14 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm 27, in the 5th year of my PhD, married and pregnant, so I'm kind of on the other side of the "divide". It can be awkward for everyone... I know. But I think, if you value your friends for who they are as people, and if they value you for who you are, it can work out. (I think it will likely not work out if you guys are sort of incidental companions who used to do the same activities together because you didn't want to do them alone.) Be interested about the changes in their lives and hope that they have interesting perspectives to share with you. Be interesting about YOUR life and share where YOU are as a person. You may actually find that you have changed more than you think you have.
I do think it's important, as a 20-something person, to know how to have fun without Going Out Together. Realistically speaking, almost nobody maintains that social model for their whole adult life and it's better to develop ways to connect with people that don't involve having lots of free time in the evening now rather than later.
Also, be aware that many people on "my side" of things (haha, not to make the division seem more severe than it is) feel this split just as acutely as you do. I'm not sitting around feeling "smug" about how "adult" my life is; I'm just making very well-considered choices that were very personally important to me.
posted by Cygnet at 5:31 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I do think it's important, as a 20-something person, to know how to have fun without Going Out Together. Realistically speaking, almost nobody maintains that social model for their whole adult life and it's better to develop ways to connect with people that don't involve having lots of free time in the evening now rather than later.
Also, be aware that many people on "my side" of things (haha, not to make the division seem more severe than it is) feel this split just as acutely as you do. I'm not sitting around feeling "smug" about how "adult" my life is; I'm just making very well-considered choices that were very personally important to me.
posted by Cygnet at 5:31 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
In my early 20s, I shared an apartment with two roommates of roughly the same age, J and T. We got along fantastically and built a great and intense social circle that seems similar to what you're describing. We were in our mid to late 20s when the first wave of marriages occurred and that was when J met their future spouse. The ones who had specific plans for children moved to the suburbs, those of us who were either single or paired up but had chosen to remain child free stayed in the city.
Yes, the group fragmented. Yes, all of us found other friends to fill the void. Our 30s were a period of reshuffling, not just because of family goals but career and other life goals as well. People would move to new cities for grad school or an enticing job offer or a general change of culture. We kept in touch over the Internet and found that the friendships that had a real connection to us survived and in some ways deepened because we didn't take each other for granted anymore. Every connection reforged after time away was special. That happened to us, and it will probably happen to you. We are all on different paths in this life and sometimes we're lucky when amazing people share the same trajectory as us even if for a little while.
I am closer to 40 than 30 now. J and I get together about once a month for dinner, sometimes with the spouse, sometimes just the two of us. Half the time they come into the city, the other half i visit their house and stay over with the children. I play with the adorable moppets and listen to my friends talk about the challenges and wonders about building a family. They ask me about my adventures -- of weeklong backpacking trips in the mountains or extended journeys through Asia or South America -- enjoying a life unfettered by property or dependents.
We are different people than who we were 15+ years ago, but we are the same souls and we are deeply, genuinely happy for each other. I think if your friends recognize that within each other and put in the work to stay in touch regardless of your choices, you will be ok.
posted by bl1nk at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yes, the group fragmented. Yes, all of us found other friends to fill the void. Our 30s were a period of reshuffling, not just because of family goals but career and other life goals as well. People would move to new cities for grad school or an enticing job offer or a general change of culture. We kept in touch over the Internet and found that the friendships that had a real connection to us survived and in some ways deepened because we didn't take each other for granted anymore. Every connection reforged after time away was special. That happened to us, and it will probably happen to you. We are all on different paths in this life and sometimes we're lucky when amazing people share the same trajectory as us even if for a little while.
I am closer to 40 than 30 now. J and I get together about once a month for dinner, sometimes with the spouse, sometimes just the two of us. Half the time they come into the city, the other half i visit their house and stay over with the children. I play with the adorable moppets and listen to my friends talk about the challenges and wonders about building a family. They ask me about my adventures -- of weeklong backpacking trips in the mountains or extended journeys through Asia or South America -- enjoying a life unfettered by property or dependents.
We are different people than who we were 15+ years ago, but we are the same souls and we are deeply, genuinely happy for each other. I think if your friends recognize that within each other and put in the work to stay in touch regardless of your choices, you will be ok.
posted by bl1nk at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is just one of those forks in the road. I think I mentioned this earlier but going forward you'll be in one of three camps: Single, Coupled, Familied.
I managed to hang out through the changes and I'm still friends with people I knew in my twenties. I was single and childless for most of my life. I'm now married, still childless, but somehow I've acquired Godkids. So there's that.
Are you with your friends because you're all the same, or do you value them as individuals with different goals and plans for their lives. If it's the former, you'll just be scrambling forever because you'll always be looking for that group to be hanging out with.
If you're the latter, you just frame things differently. So you go from doing happy hour to going over on Sunday for a cookout and pool time. Sure there may be little kids involved, but you can roll with that. You can be an Auntie or an Uncle.
This is a weird time for you because for the first time, folks are changing their identities in this way. When you were all in college, it was different, but now, the couple thing is real and permanant, the kid thing, that's a whole other can of worms and pretty permanant as well.
You're as much an adult as those who want a family and a mortgage, you just have different priorities. If you like the folks, work hard to meet on common ground. If you find that in their new life that you don't really like them that much, wish them well as they move on.
You have 100% control over how YOU react to the changes in your group. You have NO control over the changes.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:42 AM on July 11, 2013
I managed to hang out through the changes and I'm still friends with people I knew in my twenties. I was single and childless for most of my life. I'm now married, still childless, but somehow I've acquired Godkids. So there's that.
Are you with your friends because you're all the same, or do you value them as individuals with different goals and plans for their lives. If it's the former, you'll just be scrambling forever because you'll always be looking for that group to be hanging out with.
If you're the latter, you just frame things differently. So you go from doing happy hour to going over on Sunday for a cookout and pool time. Sure there may be little kids involved, but you can roll with that. You can be an Auntie or an Uncle.
This is a weird time for you because for the first time, folks are changing their identities in this way. When you were all in college, it was different, but now, the couple thing is real and permanant, the kid thing, that's a whole other can of worms and pretty permanant as well.
You're as much an adult as those who want a family and a mortgage, you just have different priorities. If you like the folks, work hard to meet on common ground. If you find that in their new life that you don't really like them that much, wish them well as they move on.
You have 100% control over how YOU react to the changes in your group. You have NO control over the changes.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:42 AM on July 11, 2013
This is weird from the other side of it, too. For example, my closest college friend has, for years, still been into keg parties and drinking games. A good time for him is playing beer pong or darts at the local bar, and he seems to only want to socialize around those activities. I love the guy, but I can't help but wonder what's wrong with the kind of socializing I prefer (I like a drink! But usually at a restaurant or at home, while chatting with people or playing board games). We're on the cusp of 30, and invitations to play drinking games inevitably make my husband and I feel kind of tired and very old. Are we boring? Too domestic? Does it matter? We like what we like!
It happens--interests diverge, friends grow apart. I would try to remain open to other kinds of activity, though, if you want these friendships to survive. Your friends might not like to go out drinking, but what about a backyard barbecue, or a trip to the local botanical garden, or a walk around a museum, or an afternoon matinee of a good movie, or some kind of literary reading at a bookstore? These more sedate options aren't really incompatible with a party-focused lifestyle and there's value in them, I think, though of course I'm biased. I do feel, though, that with the friends with whom I've remained close (and not all of them are coupled), I've gotten to know them in a deeper, richer way thanks to sharing these things. I might be more settled now--more boring--but I no longer need alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate friendship and conversation. And that feels good.
As for people who are super judgey, well that's lame. But I'd also take all of these conversations with a grain of salt. Fertility is a weird thing, especially when you're making the transition from late 20s to early 30s. At 26 I thought I'd never have kids (and so did my husband), and now we're expecting our first very wanted kiddo*. I have friends who really, really wanted to be moms and dads--but it turned out to sadly not be in the cards for them. One can never tell what the future may bring, and all these conversations about the superiority of one kind of life over another are really about comforting oneself about one's choices. I'd just stay out of the fracas and know that the only constant, in any life, is change.
*This is not to say everyone changes their mind about fertility choices! Many don't. But some do, and some have no choice in the matter and where your friends end up at 40 in light of (or despite) their philosophies at 25 might surprise you, is what I'm saying.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:53 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
It happens--interests diverge, friends grow apart. I would try to remain open to other kinds of activity, though, if you want these friendships to survive. Your friends might not like to go out drinking, but what about a backyard barbecue, or a trip to the local botanical garden, or a walk around a museum, or an afternoon matinee of a good movie, or some kind of literary reading at a bookstore? These more sedate options aren't really incompatible with a party-focused lifestyle and there's value in them, I think, though of course I'm biased. I do feel, though, that with the friends with whom I've remained close (and not all of them are coupled), I've gotten to know them in a deeper, richer way thanks to sharing these things. I might be more settled now--more boring--but I no longer need alcohol as a social lubricant to facilitate friendship and conversation. And that feels good.
As for people who are super judgey, well that's lame. But I'd also take all of these conversations with a grain of salt. Fertility is a weird thing, especially when you're making the transition from late 20s to early 30s. At 26 I thought I'd never have kids (and so did my husband), and now we're expecting our first very wanted kiddo*. I have friends who really, really wanted to be moms and dads--but it turned out to sadly not be in the cards for them. One can never tell what the future may bring, and all these conversations about the superiority of one kind of life over another are really about comforting oneself about one's choices. I'd just stay out of the fracas and know that the only constant, in any life, is change.
*This is not to say everyone changes their mind about fertility choices! Many don't. But some do, and some have no choice in the matter and where your friends end up at 40 in light of (or despite) their philosophies at 25 might surprise you, is what I'm saying.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:53 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's totally ok to drift apart naturally. At 35, I think I'm on the second or third cycle of that. I'm still friends with these folks that are drifting away, but we get together rarely. And I deal with that by actively working on making new friends (starting from a base of the IRL metafilter crew in Chicago).
posted by garlic at 6:57 AM on July 11, 2013
posted by garlic at 6:57 AM on July 11, 2013
I'm 32, and this is just starting to happen to me for the first time. (I and my friend groups live in NYC, so I guess "it" happens later in life. Another can of worms.)
Here's something I've learned - I'm no less adult than all of my friends hitching up, even though I'm still basically living the single life of happy hours and expensive dinners. I pay my bills, have a great apartment, incredible friends, a stable job I like, and pets. I have retirement plans. Family plans that may or may not include a partner. A 401K and an IRA. All adult stuff.
And that's the thing - I am STOKED my friends are coupling up, getting married, and having the babies. I'm going to be auntie! Bridesmaid! Godmom! That's exciting. It's actually made my "adult" friends and I closer, because we all know that we're in each others' lives for the long haul—single, coupled, or familied.
So totally keep being friends. Just kid-friendly up your apartment. :)
posted by functionequalsform at 7:26 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here's something I've learned - I'm no less adult than all of my friends hitching up, even though I'm still basically living the single life of happy hours and expensive dinners. I pay my bills, have a great apartment, incredible friends, a stable job I like, and pets. I have retirement plans. Family plans that may or may not include a partner. A 401K and an IRA. All adult stuff.
And that's the thing - I am STOKED my friends are coupling up, getting married, and having the babies. I'm going to be auntie! Bridesmaid! Godmom! That's exciting. It's actually made my "adult" friends and I closer, because we all know that we're in each others' lives for the long haul—single, coupled, or familied.
So totally keep being friends. Just kid-friendly up your apartment. :)
posted by functionequalsform at 7:26 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm 30 and have gone through this in the past couple years. What I've realized is that you just need to let them go. You may have thought these were "for life" friends and it's very upsetting when that turns out not to be true, but what I realized one day was that I had never even questioned why I was still friends with them because of our shared history and then it dawned on me I really didn't even like 75% of them anymore.
That's not to say everyone that gets married and has kids are out of your life. I've had several friends who have done just that and even though there may have been an adjustment period we still have a strong friendship. However they are the 25%.
The thing that shocked me is this change took place before anyone even had kids or moved to the suburbs and there was no rational reason they all needed l change their lives so drastically so soon. But I think some people just aren't comfortable with going to bars and hanging out with single people once they are in a serious relationship or married. This took me a very long time to accept because I found it personally insulting that because I was a single female some couple didn't really want me around quite so much. Unfortunately this suspicion was confirmed when another long single friend coupled up and suddenly was invited to every event and I still only got invited to a fraction of them. It's very weird and a 1950s model of relationships and friendships that I really didn't think applied to my life, but it's more common than I realized.
The good thing is once I let them go it was like a weight off my back and bizarrely whenever I do see them around they all seem sort of sad that we're more just acquaintances or maybe they just don't feel like they have the upper hand anymore. I really don't know. I wish them the best and it has been an enlightening experience, which I'm ultimately glad happened because it really allowed me to separate the wheat from chaff.
I'll always look back on our 20s together with very fond memories and I look forward to the rest of my life with the friends I know will be there regardless of whether I fit neatly into their life.
Oh yeah and the woman who calls you selfish for not wanting kids thereby leaving more resources for her kids and not contributing to overpopulation in the world her children will grow up in needs to be kicked to the curb yesterday.
posted by whoaali at 7:32 AM on July 11, 2013
That's not to say everyone that gets married and has kids are out of your life. I've had several friends who have done just that and even though there may have been an adjustment period we still have a strong friendship. However they are the 25%.
The thing that shocked me is this change took place before anyone even had kids or moved to the suburbs and there was no rational reason they all needed l change their lives so drastically so soon. But I think some people just aren't comfortable with going to bars and hanging out with single people once they are in a serious relationship or married. This took me a very long time to accept because I found it personally insulting that because I was a single female some couple didn't really want me around quite so much. Unfortunately this suspicion was confirmed when another long single friend coupled up and suddenly was invited to every event and I still only got invited to a fraction of them. It's very weird and a 1950s model of relationships and friendships that I really didn't think applied to my life, but it's more common than I realized.
The good thing is once I let them go it was like a weight off my back and bizarrely whenever I do see them around they all seem sort of sad that we're more just acquaintances or maybe they just don't feel like they have the upper hand anymore. I really don't know. I wish them the best and it has been an enlightening experience, which I'm ultimately glad happened because it really allowed me to separate the wheat from chaff.
I'll always look back on our 20s together with very fond memories and I look forward to the rest of my life with the friends I know will be there regardless of whether I fit neatly into their life.
Oh yeah and the woman who calls you selfish for not wanting kids thereby leaving more resources for her kids and not contributing to overpopulation in the world her children will grow up in needs to be kicked to the curb yesterday.
posted by whoaali at 7:32 AM on July 11, 2013
Treat them all as individuals. People who have made the decision that they want to get married, have a house, etc., and are saving money, are making a valid choice, so hang out with them at their apt., watching a movie or playing games. When they get married, have a house, kids, dog, etc., they can be your friends that you see at their barbecues, and you can enjoy their kids and dog without having to have a kid or dog of your own. I think the real problem is that maybe some of them are judgmental about your life. Don't be disapproving about their choices, either, unless they're jerks.
one woman in the pro-children camp is very adamantly pro-children, and has told the no-children camp that she thinks such a lifestyle is "selfish." This resulted in a back-and-forth argument with hurt feelings all around, and served to underscore the split in the group. I'll bet a lot of people felt really defensive about their perfectly legitimate goals in life. Some people think having kids is selfish. Some people think all sorts of stuff. Assess the individuals, make peace with the ones who got caught in what sounds like a nasty discussion, and drop the judge-y jerk who thinks it's okay to call people selfish for having different goals. Really, friends give each other respect, don't name-call, and understand that friends get to live their own lives.
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on July 11, 2013
one woman in the pro-children camp is very adamantly pro-children, and has told the no-children camp that she thinks such a lifestyle is "selfish." This resulted in a back-and-forth argument with hurt feelings all around, and served to underscore the split in the group. I'll bet a lot of people felt really defensive about their perfectly legitimate goals in life. Some people think having kids is selfish. Some people think all sorts of stuff. Assess the individuals, make peace with the ones who got caught in what sounds like a nasty discussion, and drop the judge-y jerk who thinks it's okay to call people selfish for having different goals. Really, friends give each other respect, don't name-call, and understand that friends get to live their own lives.
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on July 11, 2013
I'm going to have to second Michele in California, Cygnet, and theora55.
I have many friends who are going through a very very extended adolescence into our early thirties. That's perfectly acceptable, whatever, fine by me. However, I can no longer run around living life OON THE EEEEDGE, without planning for the future, or taking into account my husband and family. Several of my friends have had a hard time accepting that, but I like my life this way. It's not a burden, and I dislike the implication that being an Adult is less interesting, fulfilling, creative, or fun than being a... non-adult.
But many of my friends cling to the notion that Adulthood is inherently a stupider, more boring, and less worthwhile existence, than the years we get to spend as freewheeling kids. This is a very sad and limiting set of beliefs. It can be antithetical to personal growth.
And it's partially why that some nominal Adults don't like people who don't want to be Adults. Nobody likes to be sneered at, or given the "man, you used to be cool" treatment. It's infuriating. Not that it excuses any judgy behavior, but people get understandably sensitive. It's needlessly divisive for either group to make the other group the enemy. But it's natural that it'll happen, if people keep on being so judgemental about their friend's different life choices.
Several of my friends reached Adulthood before I did, and it was distressing to witness our mutual friends immediately count them out. "S/he's married, she has a kid, she probably doesn't do anything fun, interesting, or intellectually stimulating anymore." Said by plenty of people who never did anything more interesting than get drunk/high after work every night. I started to interpret it as, "S/he's not worth being friends with anymore, because s/he won't validate my current choices by continuing to make the same choices that I am. I need to live in an unchallenging echo chamber, or I can't deal."
When I got married, one of my oldest friends said, "I guess I can't come stay over at your house and have antics anymore, because you're married now." And I felt like saying, "You have been with the same guy for ten years. The only thing that keeps you from being married, is that gay marriage isn't legal in your state. You've been committed THAT long, and bought property with the man, and acted as a stepparent to his child, but somehow I've crossed the arbitrary line of No Longer Fun because I'm legally allowed to fill out paperwork?!"
Anyway. People obviously change, and you're going to change, too. A lot. It's okay for friendships to fall by the wayside during these times, but you ought not ditch people unless they are becoming jerks. Like your "childless people are selfish" friend. Who needs people like that? (On the other hand, you described that conversation devolving into an argument. If your childless friends started throwing out arguments about why having children is the Dumbest Wrongest Thing Ever, you need to re-evaluate them as well.)
Oh also: Your good and reasonable Adult friends need you around, even if your lives are different. Don't let them get sucked into that mind-numbing, isolating hole where they can only hang out with other married people and other parents, whether or not they even like them. The way that some of my friends have isolated me and other marrieds in the friends group... I don't know what to say. It's awful. You think someone is really your friend, and then they trade your company in for whoever will go to bars at 3:00 a.m. with them.
Besides, you're a grown-up, too. You're just doing it a different way than some of your friends.
Oh yeah and the woman who calls you selfish for not wanting kids thereby leaving more resources for her kids and not contributing to overpopulation in the world her children will grow up in needs to be kicked to the curb yesterday.
This attitude is as monumentally nasty and unhelpful as the OP's friend's anti-childfree attitude.
posted by Coatlicue at 8:43 AM on July 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
I have many friends who are going through a very very extended adolescence into our early thirties. That's perfectly acceptable, whatever, fine by me. However, I can no longer run around living life OON THE EEEEDGE, without planning for the future, or taking into account my husband and family. Several of my friends have had a hard time accepting that, but I like my life this way. It's not a burden, and I dislike the implication that being an Adult is less interesting, fulfilling, creative, or fun than being a... non-adult.
But many of my friends cling to the notion that Adulthood is inherently a stupider, more boring, and less worthwhile existence, than the years we get to spend as freewheeling kids. This is a very sad and limiting set of beliefs. It can be antithetical to personal growth.
And it's partially why that some nominal Adults don't like people who don't want to be Adults. Nobody likes to be sneered at, or given the "man, you used to be cool" treatment. It's infuriating. Not that it excuses any judgy behavior, but people get understandably sensitive. It's needlessly divisive for either group to make the other group the enemy. But it's natural that it'll happen, if people keep on being so judgemental about their friend's different life choices.
Several of my friends reached Adulthood before I did, and it was distressing to witness our mutual friends immediately count them out. "S/he's married, she has a kid, she probably doesn't do anything fun, interesting, or intellectually stimulating anymore." Said by plenty of people who never did anything more interesting than get drunk/high after work every night. I started to interpret it as, "S/he's not worth being friends with anymore, because s/he won't validate my current choices by continuing to make the same choices that I am. I need to live in an unchallenging echo chamber, or I can't deal."
When I got married, one of my oldest friends said, "I guess I can't come stay over at your house and have antics anymore, because you're married now." And I felt like saying, "You have been with the same guy for ten years. The only thing that keeps you from being married, is that gay marriage isn't legal in your state. You've been committed THAT long, and bought property with the man, and acted as a stepparent to his child, but somehow I've crossed the arbitrary line of No Longer Fun because I'm legally allowed to fill out paperwork?!"
Anyway. People obviously change, and you're going to change, too. A lot. It's okay for friendships to fall by the wayside during these times, but you ought not ditch people unless they are becoming jerks. Like your "childless people are selfish" friend. Who needs people like that? (On the other hand, you described that conversation devolving into an argument. If your childless friends started throwing out arguments about why having children is the Dumbest Wrongest Thing Ever, you need to re-evaluate them as well.)
Oh also: Your good and reasonable Adult friends need you around, even if your lives are different. Don't let them get sucked into that mind-numbing, isolating hole where they can only hang out with other married people and other parents, whether or not they even like them. The way that some of my friends have isolated me and other marrieds in the friends group... I don't know what to say. It's awful. You think someone is really your friend, and then they trade your company in for whoever will go to bars at 3:00 a.m. with them.
Besides, you're a grown-up, too. You're just doing it a different way than some of your friends.
Oh yeah and the woman who calls you selfish for not wanting kids thereby leaving more resources for her kids and not contributing to overpopulation in the world her children will grow up in needs to be kicked to the curb yesterday.
This attitude is as monumentally nasty and unhelpful as the OP's friend's anti-childfree attitude.
posted by Coatlicue at 8:43 AM on July 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
The only real piece of advice I can give you regarding when people make sweeping blanket statements about the lifestyle choices of others, is to remind them (kindly) that there is no 'wrong' way to live. There's just life and decisions and what you want or don't want out of it.
posted by Dimes at 9:00 AM on July 11, 2013
posted by Dimes at 9:00 AM on July 11, 2013
First, realize that your friends are no more Adult than you are. Have you seen 16th & Pregnant? Or Bridezillas? Or House Hunters? A lot of very childish folks on those shows having babies, getting married, and buying houses.
That said, yes, this is the time of life where people find that their lifestyles diverge. In college and your early 20's, everyone is basically doing the same thing -- usually single/dating, just starting a career, renting a cheap apartment, etc.
I think what it comes down to is that we have situational friends and true friends with whom we have a strong bond. With your "friends I do X with," when they're no longer available to do X, the friendship tends to wither. But then you have your friends who are your friends because you love and care about them, and those friendships can withstand the addition of spouses and children and other lifestyle changes.
posted by Asparagus at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2013
That said, yes, this is the time of life where people find that their lifestyles diverge. In college and your early 20's, everyone is basically doing the same thing -- usually single/dating, just starting a career, renting a cheap apartment, etc.
I think what it comes down to is that we have situational friends and true friends with whom we have a strong bond. With your "friends I do X with," when they're no longer available to do X, the friendship tends to wither. But then you have your friends who are your friends because you love and care about them, and those friendships can withstand the addition of spouses and children and other lifestyle changes.
posted by Asparagus at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2013
Mod note: Seriously stop arguing from this point on, leave the childfree derail completely alone
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
A little late to the party, but:
-We don't make choices in a vacuum. We make choices based on the options available to us. A lot of single people would like to settle down, but you know what? They haven't met anyone, or maybe their career is really demanding, or whatever. I hate the trope that getting married is a sign of maturity and that it's a decision - for a lot of people, meeting the right person is at least somewhat a question of luck. So, your friends are in their boat, life-wise, and you are in yours. Things happen to us and we react.
But this can feel like, "Not only does no one love you, but you are soooo immature!" Ouch. I would love to stay in on a Saturday night, but it's not so awesome when you're alone.
-One can never tell what the future may bring, and all these conversations about the superiority of one kind of life over another are really about comforting oneself about one's choices.
Yes!
-A lot of the markers of "adulthood" that you mention are very class-based, and I think that's something worth keeping in mind. I know people who had a big, parentally funded wedding and then bought a house with Mom and Dad's help, and apparently that makes them a grown-up. I am paying my own way - does that count for anything? A lot of the cultural script around growing up sort of plays into being an upper middle class yuppie - professional degrees, big weddings, a new car, etc. - and it's hard to not get swept up in that.
I am not saying that married folks and those with kids are all economically privileged yuppies - definitely not! - but in some (urban, college educated, privileged, etc.) social circles, this is a thing.
-When people have kids, you have to accomodate them more. Obviously, there are Mombie Monsters who become terrible friends post-kids, but even the mostly lovely friends can't really hang out in the same way when they have little kids. If they're cool, they'll let you come over and hang out with the kiddoes, though. I have a friend who has two kids, and I like to go hiking with her and her family. I feel like an aunt - it's cool!
posted by ablazingsaddle at 11:12 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
-We don't make choices in a vacuum. We make choices based on the options available to us. A lot of single people would like to settle down, but you know what? They haven't met anyone, or maybe their career is really demanding, or whatever. I hate the trope that getting married is a sign of maturity and that it's a decision - for a lot of people, meeting the right person is at least somewhat a question of luck. So, your friends are in their boat, life-wise, and you are in yours. Things happen to us and we react.
But this can feel like, "Not only does no one love you, but you are soooo immature!" Ouch. I would love to stay in on a Saturday night, but it's not so awesome when you're alone.
-One can never tell what the future may bring, and all these conversations about the superiority of one kind of life over another are really about comforting oneself about one's choices.
Yes!
-A lot of the markers of "adulthood" that you mention are very class-based, and I think that's something worth keeping in mind. I know people who had a big, parentally funded wedding and then bought a house with Mom and Dad's help, and apparently that makes them a grown-up. I am paying my own way - does that count for anything? A lot of the cultural script around growing up sort of plays into being an upper middle class yuppie - professional degrees, big weddings, a new car, etc. - and it's hard to not get swept up in that.
I am not saying that married folks and those with kids are all economically privileged yuppies - definitely not! - but in some (urban, college educated, privileged, etc.) social circles, this is a thing.
-When people have kids, you have to accomodate them more. Obviously, there are Mombie Monsters who become terrible friends post-kids, but even the mostly lovely friends can't really hang out in the same way when they have little kids. If they're cool, they'll let you come over and hang out with the kiddoes, though. I have a friend who has two kids, and I like to go hiking with her and her family. I feel like an aunt - it's cool!
posted by ablazingsaddle at 11:12 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
This resulted in a back-and-forth argument with hurt feelings all around, and served to underscore the split in the group...What's the best way to respond to "lifestyle" arguments like the one mentioned above?
These things will come up, though the topics may change over time. If I'm interpreting this part of your question correctly, you're asking for ways to diffuse this sort of thing, especially in social situations. I am not very adept at diffusing situations, but I have good friends who are, and I've been trying to study them for hints. So far, it seems to be that speaking what you are thinking in a calm, collected voice and *obviously* shifting the conversation can help.
Jane: "I think anyone who lives in a pink house will turn into a caterpillar!"
Xandria (attempting to calm the conversation): "That may be true, Jane, but as you recall, Mike, Juan, and Raji live in a pink house, and you're probably hurting their feelings. Let's talk about something nicer. Did you see the recent film, XYZ Goes to the Movies?"
Jane: "THEY'RE ALL CATERPILLARS!"
Xandria: "You may or may not be right. I disagree, and don't want to ruin everyone else's night. I really liked the film - what did you think, Jeremiah?"
Jane: "I think anyone who lives in a pink house will turn into a caterpillar!"
Xandria: "That may or may not be true, but I'm uncomfortable with you antagonizing friends who have made other choices. Did you see the movie XYZ Goes to the Movies? I thought it was really interesting."
It takes guts to speak up, but it gets easier with time. I've started, and I actually feel a lot better when I do. You *can* do it without hurting the original person's feelings, but you need to have a deft hand in conversation - that's the part I'm trying to master now.
posted by RogueTech at 1:29 PM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
These things will come up, though the topics may change over time. If I'm interpreting this part of your question correctly, you're asking for ways to diffuse this sort of thing, especially in social situations. I am not very adept at diffusing situations, but I have good friends who are, and I've been trying to study them for hints. So far, it seems to be that speaking what you are thinking in a calm, collected voice and *obviously* shifting the conversation can help.
Jane: "I think anyone who lives in a pink house will turn into a caterpillar!"
Xandria (attempting to calm the conversation): "That may be true, Jane, but as you recall, Mike, Juan, and Raji live in a pink house, and you're probably hurting their feelings. Let's talk about something nicer. Did you see the recent film, XYZ Goes to the Movies?"
Jane: "THEY'RE ALL CATERPILLARS!"
Xandria: "You may or may not be right. I disagree, and don't want to ruin everyone else's night. I really liked the film - what did you think, Jeremiah?"
Jane: "I think anyone who lives in a pink house will turn into a caterpillar!"
Xandria: "That may or may not be true, but I'm uncomfortable with you antagonizing friends who have made other choices. Did you see the movie XYZ Goes to the Movies? I thought it was really interesting."
It takes guts to speak up, but it gets easier with time. I've started, and I actually feel a lot better when I do. You *can* do it without hurting the original person's feelings, but you need to have a deft hand in conversation - that's the part I'm trying to master now.
posted by RogueTech at 1:29 PM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
This is totally normal, even though it's generally no fun for the folks on either side of the divide while the shake-up is going on.
I'm newly married and don't see my friends as much. I miss the everloving crap out of them. I'm not suddenly smug, or inclined to exclude singles from my social circle. I have a crazy 50-60+ hour workweek, a need to remain active, a desire to see the man I committed my life to for more than 20 waking minutes a day, and a budget with an eye toward saving for a home and kids. I can't even adequately put into words how fundamentally my life and perspective have changed in the last few years. Life is hugely overwhelming. And I seriously don't mean this to sound patronizing, but you don't "get" it until you get it. (And I don't even mean partnering, I mean whatever is your great driving purpose, your decided/found self. The point at which you stop seeking and start building, I guess. And again, that's an inadequate description, but it'll have to do.)
I think the thing is really to not feel slighted by your friends' choices. They're not more adult than you, they're focused on other things. Whoever mentioned upthread that this tension comes down to validation is really, really spot on, I think. Your friends' lives have changed. That is not a reflection on you or a relative measure of your worth. At some point, they stopped being sidekicks in your shared movie and started being the leads in their own, is all. If you want to stay friends, you'll both have to figure out how to make, uh, cameo appearances...in...er.
Anyway. You get the idea. Go over to the homeowner friend's new place for dinner instead of insisting they meet you out. Go out to couples gatherings and enjoy wearing you doofiest tee and *not* being half on-the-prowl. (Also insist, occasionally, that they part from their spouses for a while and partake of some shared interest, to keep remind them they're still welcome and cared for in the outside world.) Use other people's kids as an excuse to get into Legoland. Compromise. Don't take things too personally. Run your race.
posted by OompaLoompa at 4:31 PM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm newly married and don't see my friends as much. I miss the everloving crap out of them. I'm not suddenly smug, or inclined to exclude singles from my social circle. I have a crazy 50-60+ hour workweek, a need to remain active, a desire to see the man I committed my life to for more than 20 waking minutes a day, and a budget with an eye toward saving for a home and kids. I can't even adequately put into words how fundamentally my life and perspective have changed in the last few years. Life is hugely overwhelming. And I seriously don't mean this to sound patronizing, but you don't "get" it until you get it. (And I don't even mean partnering, I mean whatever is your great driving purpose, your decided/found self. The point at which you stop seeking and start building, I guess. And again, that's an inadequate description, but it'll have to do.)
I think the thing is really to not feel slighted by your friends' choices. They're not more adult than you, they're focused on other things. Whoever mentioned upthread that this tension comes down to validation is really, really spot on, I think. Your friends' lives have changed. That is not a reflection on you or a relative measure of your worth. At some point, they stopped being sidekicks in your shared movie and started being the leads in their own, is all. If you want to stay friends, you'll both have to figure out how to make, uh, cameo appearances...in...er.
Anyway. You get the idea. Go over to the homeowner friend's new place for dinner instead of insisting they meet you out. Go out to couples gatherings and enjoy wearing you doofiest tee and *not* being half on-the-prowl. (Also insist, occasionally, that they part from their spouses for a while and partake of some shared interest, to keep remind them they're still welcome and cared for in the outside world.) Use other people's kids as an excuse to get into Legoland. Compromise. Don't take things too personally. Run your race.
posted by OompaLoompa at 4:31 PM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: To second the mods on this thread, I really don't care to debate whether it is more "selfish" to "overpopulate the world" with children (we have nitrogen fertilizers, and the world's population is going to double in the next 20 years anyway) or to deliberately not have children for the sake of lifestyle or whatever.
None of the "adults" in my post are actually in the children-having stage yet, and I generally dislike late-night drink-a-thons, personally. So this isn't about me and my party-hard attitude clashing with my friends' decisions to settle down. I'm arguable a more boring person, party-wise, than most of the aforementioned "adults".
The conflict is more like, "Whoah, you're seriously thinking about becoming a wife and a mother, and you are reorganizing your life around that. I was just thinking about moving to Seattle and trying to write for a video game company. We sure are different!" ...and the ensuing feeling of alienation and otherness that accompanies the realization that, in ten years' time, we'll probably be living significantly different lives. And I've never really had to deal with a long-time friend making significantly different life choices from me until now. I think Lyn Never is on the money as far as what I'm talking about.
posted by deathpanels at 4:59 AM on July 12, 2013
None of the "adults" in my post are actually in the children-having stage yet, and I generally dislike late-night drink-a-thons, personally. So this isn't about me and my party-hard attitude clashing with my friends' decisions to settle down. I'm arguable a more boring person, party-wise, than most of the aforementioned "adults".
The conflict is more like, "Whoah, you're seriously thinking about becoming a wife and a mother, and you are reorganizing your life around that. I was just thinking about moving to Seattle and trying to write for a video game company. We sure are different!" ...and the ensuing feeling of alienation and otherness that accompanies the realization that, in ten years' time, we'll probably be living significantly different lives. And I've never really had to deal with a long-time friend making significantly different life choices from me until now. I think Lyn Never is on the money as far as what I'm talking about.
posted by deathpanels at 4:59 AM on July 12, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
At least one woman in the pro-children camp is very adamantly pro-children, and has told the no-children camp that she thinks such a lifestyle is "selfish."
this is just rudeness, it is the opposite of being an "adult".
posted by Think_Long at 9:05 PM on July 10, 2013 [53 favorites]