Walking on egg shells is exhausting.
May 12, 2013 9:02 AM Subscribe
My friend has done a lot for me. That doesn't change the fact that she is a miserable person. How do I breakup with a friend when I feel beholden to her?
My friend has been there in ways that one might expect a best friend to be there. The biggest favor she did for me was to allow me to stay with her for a few months, for free, while I (unsuccessfully) looked for a job in her city.
However, recently, it's become increasingly clear that she is a very unhappy person and has become incredibly mean-spirited and critical towards me. I am 99% sure it has to do with her being unhappy with her life and nothing to do with me. I have tried to remain cheerful, encouraging and supportive in this friendship, hoping things would turn around, but clearly, it is not working. It would be one thing if she was neutral towards these attempts, but they just seem to irritate her more.
I am constantly walking on eggshells around her. I can't ever mention people she has "cut off", people which I am friends with and socialize with on a regular basis. If I mention them, I am either subjected to an attack on my character (for staying friends with these people) or a litany of every way the person has aggrieved her (minor, minor friendship faux pas, in my opinion).
The long and short of it: she's bringing me down, man. She has low-grade depression that she does absolutely nothing about. Unless staying in bed and slowly cutting people out of your life is a now a prescribed treatment for depression.
I still "owe" her for putting me up. I toyed around with the idea of staying friends with her long enough to repay the favor and then ending it, but staying friends with her is starting to affect my relationship with my partner and my other friendships. I spend a lot of time doing damage control or apologizing.
I feel done. But I don't know how to end it, especially with this favor hanging over my head. Have you ever been in a similar situation? Did you end it and just feel like crap? Did you try to make up for the favor (I've considered cutting her a check for half of 2 months rent, though I don't want to insult her further)? Any advice?
My friend has been there in ways that one might expect a best friend to be there. The biggest favor she did for me was to allow me to stay with her for a few months, for free, while I (unsuccessfully) looked for a job in her city.
However, recently, it's become increasingly clear that she is a very unhappy person and has become incredibly mean-spirited and critical towards me. I am 99% sure it has to do with her being unhappy with her life and nothing to do with me. I have tried to remain cheerful, encouraging and supportive in this friendship, hoping things would turn around, but clearly, it is not working. It would be one thing if she was neutral towards these attempts, but they just seem to irritate her more.
I am constantly walking on eggshells around her. I can't ever mention people she has "cut off", people which I am friends with and socialize with on a regular basis. If I mention them, I am either subjected to an attack on my character (for staying friends with these people) or a litany of every way the person has aggrieved her (minor, minor friendship faux pas, in my opinion).
The long and short of it: she's bringing me down, man. She has low-grade depression that she does absolutely nothing about. Unless staying in bed and slowly cutting people out of your life is a now a prescribed treatment for depression.
I still "owe" her for putting me up. I toyed around with the idea of staying friends with her long enough to repay the favor and then ending it, but staying friends with her is starting to affect my relationship with my partner and my other friendships. I spend a lot of time doing damage control or apologizing.
I feel done. But I don't know how to end it, especially with this favor hanging over my head. Have you ever been in a similar situation? Did you end it and just feel like crap? Did you try to make up for the favor (I've considered cutting her a check for half of 2 months rent, though I don't want to insult her further)? Any advice?
I think the favour is actually a red herring here - you can't repay the favour by just staying friends with her for some time, and if you are thinking that you just have to wait until you can do some specific equivalent thing and then you can friend-dump her, then that's a pretty transactional view of the relationship (I'm not saying you actually do think that, but it's kind of the logical consequence of your position).
You need to think about what you want to happen - do you think there's a way to get back onto good terms if she changed her behaviour, or are you actually done? Since she's obviously been a good friend to you in the past, I do think you owe her an honest discussion of how her behaviour is affecting you and the fact it's making you want to stop seeing her. I think if she does have depression then you should try to offer as much support as you feel able to, but you do need to set a boundary so that she's not taking out her unhappiness on you.
posted by crocomancer at 9:23 AM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
You need to think about what you want to happen - do you think there's a way to get back onto good terms if she changed her behaviour, or are you actually done? Since she's obviously been a good friend to you in the past, I do think you owe her an honest discussion of how her behaviour is affecting you and the fact it's making you want to stop seeing her. I think if she does have depression then you should try to offer as much support as you feel able to, but you do need to set a boundary so that she's not taking out her unhappiness on you.
posted by crocomancer at 9:23 AM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
@Yellow, it would depend on the kind of cancer, wouldn't it?
I've been reading Divorce Busting on the recommendation of some posters here, and one of its suggestions is to break out of relationship dynamics and cycles. Like, she gets more miserable, you get more cheerful, this makes her more miserable, and it goes on. The suggestion the book makes is to break that cycle -- instead of being more cheerful, try empathizing and validating, or instead state your boundaries and enforce them.
posted by spunweb at 9:34 AM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
I've been reading Divorce Busting on the recommendation of some posters here, and one of its suggestions is to break out of relationship dynamics and cycles. Like, she gets more miserable, you get more cheerful, this makes her more miserable, and it goes on. The suggestion the book makes is to break that cycle -- instead of being more cheerful, try empathizing and validating, or instead state your boundaries and enforce them.
posted by spunweb at 9:34 AM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
I still "owe" her for putting me up.
No you don't. Absent a discussion about "you'll pay me $X" or "you'll put up with my shit for X months" then there is no owing for favors between friends.
If you owe your friend anything, it's to be honest with her. Tell her not to put you in the middle of her and your mutual friends. Offer her help with getting her depression treated. Tell her you care about her but she's bringing you down.
I am either subjected to an attack on my character (for staying friends with these people)
You don't have to put up with that from anyone. Cut that off as soon as it starts -- "you may not like Z but I do, and I won't be criticized for choosing different friends than you do."
If she persists after you make yourself clear, then you have your answer. But making yourself clear is the only thing you "owe" a friend.
posted by headnsouth at 9:37 AM on May 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
No you don't. Absent a discussion about "you'll pay me $X" or "you'll put up with my shit for X months" then there is no owing for favors between friends.
If you owe your friend anything, it's to be honest with her. Tell her not to put you in the middle of her and your mutual friends. Offer her help with getting her depression treated. Tell her you care about her but she's bringing you down.
I am either subjected to an attack on my character (for staying friends with these people)
You don't have to put up with that from anyone. Cut that off as soon as it starts -- "you may not like Z but I do, and I won't be criticized for choosing different friends than you do."
If she persists after you make yourself clear, then you have your answer. But making yourself clear is the only thing you "owe" a friend.
posted by headnsouth at 9:37 AM on May 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
The long and short of it: she's bringing me down, man. She has low-grade depression that she does absolutely nothing about.
I've definitely been in a similar situation. A guy friend of mine had been there for me at a very critical moment in my life, and asked nothing of me for it. After that, our paths crossed a little more often, but every time he promised he would be somewhere, or do something with me or for me, he would cancel the night before. Every single time, without fail. It became a big problem. Picking up the phone and calling him out on it was extremely difficult.
You might be in a unique position to deliver some much-needed honesty to this person. I wouldn't choose to sit her down and tell her all the things she's done and appears to have (like depression), but rather tell her how and why your feelings have been hurt.
Walking on eggshells, feeling like the other person is taking advantage of you - unfortunately that's not the other person's fault. However, you're completely in the right - having your character assassinated and sitting around mocking everyone else in existence is not much fun. Plus, who wants to offer honesty to someone so wrathful.
I think if you are good friends with this person I would talk to them about how this relationship has left you feeling, how it has impacted your relationships, and maybe even talk about how you find yourself indebted to her, but that even that isn't worth how down this has brought you.
Depression can often involve a denial of one's own condition, so I would be prepared for what might amount to a very aggressive response. I would recommend patience and not responding in kind. You have a right to feel uncomfortable. You have a right to report it. Not even the most depressed person on the planet can take issue with that - but they might try to. So this could very well be a goodbye conversation. And if this person is disarmed by your honesty and asks for help, this might still be a good time to part ways and advise her to seek professional help. Do not become the steward of all her problems.
Just don't lose your temper or get upset about any of this, there's no need to set fire on people that are clearly in a world of pain. Just get in touch with yourself and what you're willing to put up with and tell her about it. Very powerful stuff. Dominance not aggression. That sort of thing.
posted by phaedon at 9:54 AM on May 12, 2013
I've definitely been in a similar situation. A guy friend of mine had been there for me at a very critical moment in my life, and asked nothing of me for it. After that, our paths crossed a little more often, but every time he promised he would be somewhere, or do something with me or for me, he would cancel the night before. Every single time, without fail. It became a big problem. Picking up the phone and calling him out on it was extremely difficult.
You might be in a unique position to deliver some much-needed honesty to this person. I wouldn't choose to sit her down and tell her all the things she's done and appears to have (like depression), but rather tell her how and why your feelings have been hurt.
Walking on eggshells, feeling like the other person is taking advantage of you - unfortunately that's not the other person's fault. However, you're completely in the right - having your character assassinated and sitting around mocking everyone else in existence is not much fun. Plus, who wants to offer honesty to someone so wrathful.
I think if you are good friends with this person I would talk to them about how this relationship has left you feeling, how it has impacted your relationships, and maybe even talk about how you find yourself indebted to her, but that even that isn't worth how down this has brought you.
Depression can often involve a denial of one's own condition, so I would be prepared for what might amount to a very aggressive response. I would recommend patience and not responding in kind. You have a right to feel uncomfortable. You have a right to report it. Not even the most depressed person on the planet can take issue with that - but they might try to. So this could very well be a goodbye conversation. And if this person is disarmed by your honesty and asks for help, this might still be a good time to part ways and advise her to seek professional help. Do not become the steward of all her problems.
Just don't lose your temper or get upset about any of this, there's no need to set fire on people that are clearly in a world of pain. Just get in touch with yourself and what you're willing to put up with and tell her about it. Very powerful stuff. Dominance not aggression. That sort of thing.
posted by phaedon at 9:54 AM on May 12, 2013
She has low-grade depression that she does absolutely nothing about. Unless staying in bed and slowly cutting people out of your life is a now a prescribed treatment for depression.
This seems pretty shallow and snarky. That is depression. Mental illness wouldn't be such a big issue if it was always easy to just get out of bed, and the pills you see on teevee always worked.
It is good that you can recognise that "it has to do with her being unhappy with her life and nothing to do with me." Yes.
You're not obligated to nursemaid somebody through an illness, but I am given pause by the "few months" of the stay -- clearly you two have had at least what she thought was a meaningful friendship -- and the "recently" aspect of the crummy treatment of you.
I do agree that confronting her would be a positive thing, but that should come from a place of compassion; confront her with the goal of helping her help herself, not with the goal of, er, 'fixing her wagon,' so to speak.
It sounds like better boundaries and more honesty is needed here and nobody would fault you for going in that direction, but to friend-dump because: sick, not pleasant to be around while sick, is something you may feel quite badly about later. You really can't go wrong by asking yourself how you would want others to treat you in that situation, and going with the sincere answer to that. I do realise it is incredibly hard to understand depression from the outside -- my own years-ago depression makes no sense at all to me now -- but read up a bit so you can get a good idea of 'what would I want if it was me.' Here's a cartoon (and, part two) that is resonating with a lot of people who've been there.
I do not mean to suggest that it gives her a free pass on being nasty -- that's where you want to draw boundaries and have a forthright conversation. You don't have to put up with that.
But the overall idea here -- previously kind individual whose kindness I was happy to enjoy is now sick and I find it a drag so how can I ditch her? -- is kind of cold. I hear that it is affecting your other relationships negatively, but it's hard to understand why you can't change those relationships -- are you really whiny about her to your partner? Do you gossip about the nasty things she's said and fuel drama elsewhere that way? You can work on altering existing paradigms there, I would hope, instead of just 'You're a drag, GTFO' to somebody who was, up until recently, apparently pretty decent.
Friends can have 'separations,' too, just like couples. Instead of 'ending it and feeling like crap,' maybe you just need a break from the situation.
posted by kmennie at 10:17 AM on May 12, 2013 [32 favorites]
This seems pretty shallow and snarky. That is depression. Mental illness wouldn't be such a big issue if it was always easy to just get out of bed, and the pills you see on teevee always worked.
It is good that you can recognise that "it has to do with her being unhappy with her life and nothing to do with me." Yes.
You're not obligated to nursemaid somebody through an illness, but I am given pause by the "few months" of the stay -- clearly you two have had at least what she thought was a meaningful friendship -- and the "recently" aspect of the crummy treatment of you.
I do agree that confronting her would be a positive thing, but that should come from a place of compassion; confront her with the goal of helping her help herself, not with the goal of, er, 'fixing her wagon,' so to speak.
It sounds like better boundaries and more honesty is needed here and nobody would fault you for going in that direction, but to friend-dump because: sick, not pleasant to be around while sick, is something you may feel quite badly about later. You really can't go wrong by asking yourself how you would want others to treat you in that situation, and going with the sincere answer to that. I do realise it is incredibly hard to understand depression from the outside -- my own years-ago depression makes no sense at all to me now -- but read up a bit so you can get a good idea of 'what would I want if it was me.' Here's a cartoon (and, part two) that is resonating with a lot of people who've been there.
I do not mean to suggest that it gives her a free pass on being nasty -- that's where you want to draw boundaries and have a forthright conversation. You don't have to put up with that.
But the overall idea here -- previously kind individual whose kindness I was happy to enjoy is now sick and I find it a drag so how can I ditch her? -- is kind of cold. I hear that it is affecting your other relationships negatively, but it's hard to understand why you can't change those relationships -- are you really whiny about her to your partner? Do you gossip about the nasty things she's said and fuel drama elsewhere that way? You can work on altering existing paradigms there, I would hope, instead of just 'You're a drag, GTFO' to somebody who was, up until recently, apparently pretty decent.
Friends can have 'separations,' too, just like couples. Instead of 'ending it and feeling like crap,' maybe you just need a break from the situation.
posted by kmennie at 10:17 AM on May 12, 2013 [32 favorites]
Depression is not an excuse for rude obnoxious behavior, nor a cause in my opinion. She is unhappy and a bitch. She would probably be a bitch even if she was happy.
I would , at the very least, take a break from her. If she asks why, tell her the truth in a clear and kind way. She will be hurt and angry and act like the victim. She may even bring up all she has done for you to try and make it seems like you are an ungrateful beast. Don't fall for it. I have had people like this in my life. They are like happy vampires...they suck the happiness and enjoyment out of everything.
I have hung in with one person like this because we have been friends for over thirty years and her husband died. She went into a deep depression and I let her feelings really dictate what I did for too long. I stopped letting her push me around at about the same time everyone else in her life said enough of this shit. I am happy to report that she got help and is returning to her old self. If that had not happened that friendship would have ended last summer.
As far as owing her anything. I think that depends on the friendship. I have stayed with friends for free and let two friends stay with me for six months rent free after they lost jobs and home. I have never felt that "owing" thing you talk about. I am grateful I had a friend who did it for me and happy that I could do it for someone else.
posted by cairnoflore at 10:43 AM on May 12, 2013
I would , at the very least, take a break from her. If she asks why, tell her the truth in a clear and kind way. She will be hurt and angry and act like the victim. She may even bring up all she has done for you to try and make it seems like you are an ungrateful beast. Don't fall for it. I have had people like this in my life. They are like happy vampires...they suck the happiness and enjoyment out of everything.
I have hung in with one person like this because we have been friends for over thirty years and her husband died. She went into a deep depression and I let her feelings really dictate what I did for too long. I stopped letting her push me around at about the same time everyone else in her life said enough of this shit. I am happy to report that she got help and is returning to her old self. If that had not happened that friendship would have ended last summer.
As far as owing her anything. I think that depends on the friendship. I have stayed with friends for free and let two friends stay with me for six months rent free after they lost jobs and home. I have never felt that "owing" thing you talk about. I am grateful I had a friend who did it for me and happy that I could do it for someone else.
posted by cairnoflore at 10:43 AM on May 12, 2013
Irritability and self-isolation are so, so totally symptoms of depression. Dysthymia's diagnostic criteria list flat-out says that irritability can be there without any apparently "low" mood!
I have a close family member (regrettably, normally my major support person) who has both dysthymia and major depression; she's under stress right now and her symptoms are such that it's next to impossible to have conversation with her, let alone hang out like we normally do. So, I don't have conversations with her right now, and she and I haven't hung out together in a few months. If she reaches out to me, I respond with as much kindness I can muster, and when she gets irritated with me I go find something else to do. She'll get over it at some point (when the stress goes down,) and we'll be back to where we usually are (where it's my symptoms that make things hard for her, heh.)
I suggest you disengage as much as possible, but retain the connection. She's likely to get better at some point. Mention the depression and recent behavior changes if you want, and/or suggest therapy - maybe if she asks you why you aren't hanging out with her as much as you used to. Some people get really offended by this, though.
Don't send her a check, also - certainly do not do that without asking her first.
(BTW, if you have friends/family members with mood disorders, it is very helpful once they get better to discuss how to handle situations like this the next time they pop up. My sisters have a toolbox of things they can say to me when they think I'm becoming hypomanic, for instance.)
posted by Fee Phi Faux Phumb I Smell t'Socks o' a Puppetman! at 10:46 AM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have a close family member (regrettably, normally my major support person) who has both dysthymia and major depression; she's under stress right now and her symptoms are such that it's next to impossible to have conversation with her, let alone hang out like we normally do. So, I don't have conversations with her right now, and she and I haven't hung out together in a few months. If she reaches out to me, I respond with as much kindness I can muster, and when she gets irritated with me I go find something else to do. She'll get over it at some point (when the stress goes down,) and we'll be back to where we usually are (where it's my symptoms that make things hard for her, heh.)
I suggest you disengage as much as possible, but retain the connection. She's likely to get better at some point. Mention the depression and recent behavior changes if you want, and/or suggest therapy - maybe if she asks you why you aren't hanging out with her as much as you used to. Some people get really offended by this, though.
Don't send her a check, also - certainly do not do that without asking her first.
(BTW, if you have friends/family members with mood disorders, it is very helpful once they get better to discuss how to handle situations like this the next time they pop up. My sisters have a toolbox of things they can say to me when they think I'm becoming hypomanic, for instance.)
posted by Fee Phi Faux Phumb I Smell t'Socks o' a Puppetman! at 10:46 AM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Have you talked to your friend? You might actually be in a really great position to express some concern for her well-being and point out how her untreated depression is affecting her and others.
posted by mynameisluka at 11:02 AM on May 12, 2013
posted by mynameisluka at 11:02 AM on May 12, 2013
Your friendship cannot heal something that requires medication. Continuing your friendship won't fix her depression. If you are able to do it, have a conversation with her about getting professional help. At that point, she's free to get help or not. If she can't or won't get help, then there's really nothing you can do for her.
Fade away from her and move forward with your life. If you really feel indebted by her hospitality commit to giving someone similar support in the future.
posted by 26.2 at 11:08 AM on May 12, 2013
Fade away from her and move forward with your life. If you really feel indebted by her hospitality commit to giving someone similar support in the future.
posted by 26.2 at 11:08 AM on May 12, 2013
Have you tried just telling her all of this and saying that you want to be friends but you aren't going to stand for her being an asshole any more? That seems like it might be a practical way to end things - invest as much effort as you feel like in cutting her off when she starts being a jerk and insisting that she treat you decently (as opposed to criticizing her as a person: just point out the inconsiderate behavior, with maybe some elaboration on why it makes you feel like crap) and then when you give her a time-out or end it, you'll have a "paper trail" of clear explanation of why you couldn't put up with it any more and effort at good-faith compromise on your end.
If she's depressed, that might be the best way to do it if it's not going to work out - thoroughly explaining everything repeatedly so that she isn't left to speculate about unspoken reasons, which her depression might blow out of proportion.
posted by XMLicious at 11:13 AM on May 12, 2013
If she's depressed, that might be the best way to do it if it's not going to work out - thoroughly explaining everything repeatedly so that she isn't left to speculate about unspoken reasons, which her depression might blow out of proportion.
posted by XMLicious at 11:13 AM on May 12, 2013
Maybe a slow fade-out without burning bridges might be a good way to go. It gives you the option of reconnecting or repaying the favor in the future while minimizing discomfort on both sides. Friendships ebb and flow naturally depending on all kinds of factors and it's not necessarily anybody's fault if you're too busy to hang out so much for a while.
I kind of wonder if your good-hearted attempt to be cheerful and supportive is actually rubbing her the wrong way. When I'm under the cloud of depression, a chirpy "chin up!" is the last thing I want to hear. Even though it's well meant your encouragement might sound dismissive and patronizing to her. On the other hand, a manifesto of "I can't stand being around you any more and here's all the reasons why" would be pretty devastating for someone who's already in pain.
The kindest way to handle this is probably to let the friendship dwindle without any drama. If she asks why you don't see her any more, you maybe can explain about her criticism etc and suggest she might look into getting help for depression. But I doubt she'll ask - she's cut off other friends and she probably knows darn well what's going on. However, by avoiding a pre-emptive explanation you'll let her save face if you ever rekindle your friendship later. "Too busy" is a perfectly acceptable and blame-free excuse; "you were being an asshole" is hard to recover from.
posted by Quietgal at 11:43 AM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I kind of wonder if your good-hearted attempt to be cheerful and supportive is actually rubbing her the wrong way. When I'm under the cloud of depression, a chirpy "chin up!" is the last thing I want to hear. Even though it's well meant your encouragement might sound dismissive and patronizing to her. On the other hand, a manifesto of "I can't stand being around you any more and here's all the reasons why" would be pretty devastating for someone who's already in pain.
The kindest way to handle this is probably to let the friendship dwindle without any drama. If she asks why you don't see her any more, you maybe can explain about her criticism etc and suggest she might look into getting help for depression. But I doubt she'll ask - she's cut off other friends and she probably knows darn well what's going on. However, by avoiding a pre-emptive explanation you'll let her save face if you ever rekindle your friendship later. "Too busy" is a perfectly acceptable and blame-free excuse; "you were being an asshole" is hard to recover from.
posted by Quietgal at 11:43 AM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't understand the relationship between "repaying the favor" and "ending" your association with her. If you owe her something, then remit. Gratitude expresses the inner workings of the person offering it. An act of kindness isn't a license of any kind relative to the person who's being helped.
Your empathy seems to be turning into hostility. It doesn't have to work that way. Being honest with her doesn't have to entail being nasty. You may calmly point out that you don't wish to listen to criticism of your friends. You don't have to walk on eggshells.
Depression is serious. It's an illness, not a character fault. Still, indulging her won't help her. She is feathering her own nest the best way she knows how, but you aren't required to live in it.
posted by mule98J at 12:10 PM on May 12, 2013
Your empathy seems to be turning into hostility. It doesn't have to work that way. Being honest with her doesn't have to entail being nasty. You may calmly point out that you don't wish to listen to criticism of your friends. You don't have to walk on eggshells.
Depression is serious. It's an illness, not a character fault. Still, indulging her won't help her. She is feathering her own nest the best way she knows how, but you aren't required to live in it.
posted by mule98J at 12:10 PM on May 12, 2013
From an anonymous commenter:
Except for some of the broader details, I found myself wondering if you are a former friend of mine. Which, in turn, prompts me to point out that there are often two sides to a story.posted by restless_nomad at 12:18 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Depressed people are often drawn to depressed people because they tick in similar ways. Depressed people therefore may rely on other depressed people when perhaps they should make better choices for support. Looking for work to no avail, for months, can be very depressing. Depressed people who overextend themselves by offering help to others often suffer in relative silence, because they don’t think they’re entitled to speak up.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask: Are you absolutely sure you were an ideal rent-free roommate for all of those months?
If your answer is not 100% yes, don’t be surprised if attempting an intervention with your friend goes poorly, especially if others have done far less to generate more. Fading out, as some have suggested, might be the best way to go.
Mod note: From the OP:
In regard to my seeming lack of empathy, someone hit the nail on the head that it is turning into hostility, though I'd say it is more like frustration. I have spent years encouraging her to seek treatment for her depression. In regard to the anonymous question asking if I am depressed: No. I am not. And I was not while living with her (2 months). I know this because I have suffered from varying degrees of depression through my adulthood, and I am keenly aware of what depression feels like for me.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:35 PM on May 12, 2013
That is the root of my frustration. I know many people who have taken steps to deal with their depression. Few have beat it, but most manage it. I have encouraged her to seek treatment from the voice of experience and it is either disregarded or met with hostility.
Thank you for the replies so far.
I kind of feel like when someone seems the most unlovable is when they need love the most. You said it yourself -- she is deeply unhappy and it has nothing to do with you and in her own way, does what she can to be a good friend. I think some people, honestly, are kind of irritable and not great with people and have very specific expectations out of people, which is why maybe your friend has "cut off" other friends. I know people like that and the friends they do have are able to accept -- "that's just how this person is and it has nothing to do with me" and keep their friendship in smaller doses. If she's bringing you down, you don't need to hang out with her all the time or talk to her everyday.
But she clearly cares for you a lot and may actually need the support. Maybe she doesn't sound open to it, but she may need some support if she's going to get any help to become happier. Demanding that she seek treatment doesn't sound like the way to go about this. Her personality sounds like she responds to support, not pushing, and she will need empathy and compassion, not lectures and scolding. Some people need a swift kick in the pants to say "Hey, get your shit together." Others will resist even harder to that approach and need something more like, "Hey, I know things aren't going great for you and I know you can totally handle it. But I know someone who went through the same thing and... blah blah."
As for your comment regarding depression that "few have beat it, but most manage it." I guess that must be your experience, but mine is the opposite. I know a lot of people who have managed to put depression completely behind them, myself included. Sure, it doesn't happen overnight, but I've been depression-free for 10 years. Talking to your friend about depression in terms of "Maybe you can manage it" isn't very promising. She needs to know she doesn't have to feel unhappy for ever. She can totally change her life. The fact that you don't believe that is a little sad and probably doesn't help the way you talk to her about it.
Being a friend means a lot of things. It doesn't mean you hang out with her and be her punching bag. But it may mean you talk to her about what's really going on and how she can be proactive in fixing it. It doesn't need to be, "Hey, you're a bitch and it's bothering me." It can be, "Hey, you deserve to be happy and you don't seem happy these days."
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:19 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
But she clearly cares for you a lot and may actually need the support. Maybe she doesn't sound open to it, but she may need some support if she's going to get any help to become happier. Demanding that she seek treatment doesn't sound like the way to go about this. Her personality sounds like she responds to support, not pushing, and she will need empathy and compassion, not lectures and scolding. Some people need a swift kick in the pants to say "Hey, get your shit together." Others will resist even harder to that approach and need something more like, "Hey, I know things aren't going great for you and I know you can totally handle it. But I know someone who went through the same thing and... blah blah."
As for your comment regarding depression that "few have beat it, but most manage it." I guess that must be your experience, but mine is the opposite. I know a lot of people who have managed to put depression completely behind them, myself included. Sure, it doesn't happen overnight, but I've been depression-free for 10 years. Talking to your friend about depression in terms of "Maybe you can manage it" isn't very promising. She needs to know she doesn't have to feel unhappy for ever. She can totally change her life. The fact that you don't believe that is a little sad and probably doesn't help the way you talk to her about it.
Being a friend means a lot of things. It doesn't mean you hang out with her and be her punching bag. But it may mean you talk to her about what's really going on and how she can be proactive in fixing it. It doesn't need to be, "Hey, you're a bitch and it's bothering me." It can be, "Hey, you deserve to be happy and you don't seem happy these days."
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:19 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
I ended a friendship in similar circumstances last fall. This person had been one of my closest friends for nearly 30 years, and we had done things over the years like lending each other large amounts of money (once, memorably, for a matter of a few weeks while waiting for a transaction to be processed, as much as $50,000), flying thousands of miles on a few hours' notice in an emergency, being present at the birth of each other's children.
My friend had always struggled with PTSD and depression, but had been a good and loving friend. Over the last few years, however the relationship had gotten more and more one-sided. We'd gone through periods before where one of us was giving more than the other, and generally things shifted after awhile as whatever circumstance was leading one of us to be more needy changed. So for a long time, I hung in, expecting the balance to shift eventually, though as time passed and she became more needy and demanding, I began to wonder just how long it made sense to stay such a relationship--I was on call for constant crises, but not having any opportunities to enjoy being with her the way I used to.
Things never got better. Her symptoms got worse and worse, to the point that she became verbally abusive toward me, and dishonest. Understanding how hard things were for her, I tried to make peace with it, in the hope that she would improve, realize how beyond the pale her behavior had been, and apologize.
After some months, it became clear that she wasn't going to do that, so I arranged to meet her and told her we needed to talk about her behavior. In that conversation, it became clear that not only was she not going to take responsibility for her behavior, but she had twisted things in her mind so that she was the wronged party and I was the one who had been verbally abusive--she hadn't apologized to me, she said, because she was waiting for me to apologize to her.
That conversation made it very clear that there was no productive conversation to be had about what she had done, and that there was no point in continuing the relationship. I got up and left in under 10 minutes, and haven't seen her since.
It was a tremendous relief to end the relationship. It had been such a struggle for such a long time that ending it took a huge weight off me. I didn't even grieve at that point; I think I'd done that previously, when she attacked me so viciously.
I guess I'm telling you this to say that it really is OK to end a relationship even if you know the person's behavior is caused by an underlying condition like depression. My friend's depression and PTSD were severe, and I certainly have compassion for that. But at the same time, I couldn't keep letting anyone treat me so badly.
I'll add that trying to have a very direct, clear conversation about it really helped. There's a chance that conversation could have gone differently and led to a different outcome. I didn't expect it to, and I wasn't surprised when it didn't, but it was the last piece of information I needed to tell me it really was OK to walk away. If I had just faded away instead of trying to address it with her directly, I don't think I'd ever have felt so clear and good about my decision to end the friendship.
Best of luck to you. I know how hard it is.
posted by not that girl at 2:06 PM on May 12, 2013 [8 favorites]
My friend had always struggled with PTSD and depression, but had been a good and loving friend. Over the last few years, however the relationship had gotten more and more one-sided. We'd gone through periods before where one of us was giving more than the other, and generally things shifted after awhile as whatever circumstance was leading one of us to be more needy changed. So for a long time, I hung in, expecting the balance to shift eventually, though as time passed and she became more needy and demanding, I began to wonder just how long it made sense to stay such a relationship--I was on call for constant crises, but not having any opportunities to enjoy being with her the way I used to.
Things never got better. Her symptoms got worse and worse, to the point that she became verbally abusive toward me, and dishonest. Understanding how hard things were for her, I tried to make peace with it, in the hope that she would improve, realize how beyond the pale her behavior had been, and apologize.
After some months, it became clear that she wasn't going to do that, so I arranged to meet her and told her we needed to talk about her behavior. In that conversation, it became clear that not only was she not going to take responsibility for her behavior, but she had twisted things in her mind so that she was the wronged party and I was the one who had been verbally abusive--she hadn't apologized to me, she said, because she was waiting for me to apologize to her.
That conversation made it very clear that there was no productive conversation to be had about what she had done, and that there was no point in continuing the relationship. I got up and left in under 10 minutes, and haven't seen her since.
It was a tremendous relief to end the relationship. It had been such a struggle for such a long time that ending it took a huge weight off me. I didn't even grieve at that point; I think I'd done that previously, when she attacked me so viciously.
I guess I'm telling you this to say that it really is OK to end a relationship even if you know the person's behavior is caused by an underlying condition like depression. My friend's depression and PTSD were severe, and I certainly have compassion for that. But at the same time, I couldn't keep letting anyone treat me so badly.
I'll add that trying to have a very direct, clear conversation about it really helped. There's a chance that conversation could have gone differently and led to a different outcome. I didn't expect it to, and I wasn't surprised when it didn't, but it was the last piece of information I needed to tell me it really was OK to walk away. If I had just faded away instead of trying to address it with her directly, I don't think I'd ever have felt so clear and good about my decision to end the friendship.
Best of luck to you. I know how hard it is.
posted by not that girl at 2:06 PM on May 12, 2013 [8 favorites]
I have been in a similar situation with a friend, except I paid my way while living with her which enabled her to afford a good number of things she couldn't before I moved in (think new car, medical bills, etc.). Even owing her no money, and trying to be understanding about her down times, and walking on eggshells, she lashed out over every perceived slight (we're talking me saying things like "I'm not a huge fan of this band" and her turning it into a personal attack on her tastes. )
In the end I understood she was horribly depressed and unhappy, and alienating everyone, and there was nothing anyone could do about it unless she wanted to address it with treatment. No approach improved things. Ultimately she forced an argument about something and, having had enough, I just spoke my peace and was done with it. She talked shit about me for a while to mutual friends, then alienated them, then tried to circle back to be friends with me on a few occasions. I just remain polite but distant. I wish her well, but I have been so much happier not dealing with her issues and nastiness that I can't even bring myself to find out firsthand if she's better.
All of which is to say she is who she is whether or not you "owe" her anything, so I'd throw out that element as a point of concern. Do you want to remain her friend? You can try to remain supportive and dealing with her issues as they arise or you can decide not to deal with it anymore. You might feel like a jerk afterward for having accepted her help. You might just feel relief and then feel like a jerk for feeling relieved. On preview, what not that girl said.
It's okay to let it go.
posted by OompaLoompa at 2:17 PM on May 12, 2013
In the end I understood she was horribly depressed and unhappy, and alienating everyone, and there was nothing anyone could do about it unless she wanted to address it with treatment. No approach improved things. Ultimately she forced an argument about something and, having had enough, I just spoke my peace and was done with it. She talked shit about me for a while to mutual friends, then alienated them, then tried to circle back to be friends with me on a few occasions. I just remain polite but distant. I wish her well, but I have been so much happier not dealing with her issues and nastiness that I can't even bring myself to find out firsthand if she's better.
All of which is to say she is who she is whether or not you "owe" her anything, so I'd throw out that element as a point of concern. Do you want to remain her friend? You can try to remain supportive and dealing with her issues as they arise or you can decide not to deal with it anymore. You might feel like a jerk afterward for having accepted her help. You might just feel relief and then feel like a jerk for feeling relieved. On preview, what not that girl said.
It's okay to let it go.
posted by OompaLoompa at 2:17 PM on May 12, 2013
It sounds like she needs a friend. It sounds like you needed a friend too, and she was there when you needed her. You don't have to be friends with anybody, and there is no set time after which the favour she did you will be repaid, but you may feel better about yourself if you stick around. It might be worthwhile asking her what she wants you to do.
Whatever you decide to do, it is probably a good idea to be mindful of the fact that seeking treatment for depression is extremely frightening and overwhelming for many people. There were times in my life (university, what a ball) when everyone kept telling me to get help because they didn't want to deal with me sitting crying on the kitchen floor. For my part, I was sure I couldn't deal with the getting help process on my own, and I knew there wasn't anyone who was able to see it through with me. There is such a thing as feeling too ill and too isolated to see a doctor.
posted by Acheman at 7:53 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whatever you decide to do, it is probably a good idea to be mindful of the fact that seeking treatment for depression is extremely frightening and overwhelming for many people. There were times in my life (university, what a ball) when everyone kept telling me to get help because they didn't want to deal with me sitting crying on the kitchen floor. For my part, I was sure I couldn't deal with the getting help process on my own, and I knew there wasn't anyone who was able to see it through with me. There is such a thing as feeling too ill and too isolated to see a doctor.
posted by Acheman at 7:53 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have been the friend who gave the "favor" while I was seriously struggling with depression, and I let an unemployed friend stay with me rent free for a long period of time.
Similar to your situation, I vented a lot of my frustration in ways that were really unhealthy and lashed out at other people. Having this normal person who was not at the time desperately struggling telling me that if only I could get treatment everything would be fine just felt super condescending because at the time there was really no way for me to seek treatment.
You don't mention your friend's reasons for not getting treatment, but I didn't have insurance and I didn't have the kind of job you could just leave at 2:30 for an hour to go to an appointment anyway. Who knows, maybe she can't afford it or maybe she can't find a therapist who is on her insurance/nearby/has hours that work with her schedule.
Guess I'm just trying to get at, you don't want her to criticize you and you don't like being in the middle or her trash-talking maybe instead of cutting her out entirely you should bring up and lay out clear boundaries for the specific behavior you can't handle.
posted by forkisbetter at 10:29 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Similar to your situation, I vented a lot of my frustration in ways that were really unhealthy and lashed out at other people. Having this normal person who was not at the time desperately struggling telling me that if only I could get treatment everything would be fine just felt super condescending because at the time there was really no way for me to seek treatment.
You don't mention your friend's reasons for not getting treatment, but I didn't have insurance and I didn't have the kind of job you could just leave at 2:30 for an hour to go to an appointment anyway. Who knows, maybe she can't afford it or maybe she can't find a therapist who is on her insurance/nearby/has hours that work with her schedule.
Guess I'm just trying to get at, you don't want her to criticize you and you don't like being in the middle or her trash-talking maybe instead of cutting her out entirely you should bring up and lay out clear boundaries for the specific behavior you can't handle.
posted by forkisbetter at 10:29 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It's difficult to walk away from a person who you may imagine has given you so much, but that was a gift. It has and shouldn't have any conditions. You can be thankful of the gift given to you, but it is a whole other thing when you allow someone to abuse you.
posted by Yellow at 9:22 AM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]