Dealing with a lack of jealousy
April 17, 2013 5:33 PM Subscribe
I seem to have a near-total lack of romantic jealousy. It's not that I've never experienced jealousy or can't relate to it, just that my dial seems to be turned down unusually low. This can be disruptive to dating and relationships, and I need some advice on how to deal with it.
Details: I'm straight, male, early '30s, and this has been consistent and increasingly noticeable for at least ten years.
First, it obviously makes me less inclined to monogamy. Even if I'm very emotionally & physically intimate with someone, it wouldn't bother me if they were equally intimate with someone else. And it feels odd to agree to something myself that I don't even want from them.
That might sound like I'm "poly," but I can't relate to that either, even after talking with some smart friends who identify that way. It doesn't feel like part of my identity. And if I find someone to settle down with, I expect I'll wind up monogamous (at least on my end) and be perfectly happy that way.
Actually, my inclination is the opposite of the long-term couple who decides to "open" their relationship: I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it. My reasoning is that it's hard enough to find someone who's a good match in other ways, so you should take the easiest and lowest-drama option as far as exclusivity. When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
To state the obvious, most women I meet do not share this view, or even quite know what to make of it (even though I live in a big liberal cosmopolitan city). Whenever I get involved with someone, she picks up on this trait and is really bothered by it. Everyone knows the stereotype (true or not) of how men are more reluctant than women to be be faithful themselves, but the idea that I genuinely wouldn't care what she does . . . even in great relationships with real long-term potential where I've agreed to be monogamous, we're hanging out (and having sex) frequently and I'm generally very affectionate, it seems to be a nagging source of stress and insecurity. Among other things, partners will invariably give me little "tests" like "my ex is in town," "this guy at my office is so hot," etc. - and get very frustrated when I don't rise to the bait and make at least a playful show of concern.
I don't think they're being deliberately manipulative. I think it's just one of the little games that many of us play, often only semi-consciously, to solicit affection and affirmation. Most people are at least a bit jealous and possessive of a partner they care about, so it's natural to interpret a complete lack of those things as their partner not really being that into them. But I just don't seem to be wired that way. I can be completely into someone, and the idea of her having another lover still doesn't feel any different than if she had a close platonic friend.
Can anyone relate to this? Is it maybe more common than I think? Sometimes I think that what I've just described is just the near-universal battle of the sexes among urban singles -- but then when I talk to single male friends, they don't seem to get it. Most are willing to allow their partner to see other people in order to keep that privilege themselves (again, the standard male stereotype), but none are indifferent to the prospect. For them it's a tradeoff. And that's a big difference.
I've thought about some other potential explanations, such as:
- for whatever reason I'm attracting (or attracted to) particularly insecure women
- i'm really NOT that into any of the women I've dated, and when I meet my real soulmate I'll be jealous again
- this is a symptom of another problem, like depression, narcissism, aspergers, sociopathy :) . . .
Without boring you with the details, I'm pretty sure that none of these fit. And FWIW I seem to be more or less average in terms of envy, vanity, greed and other neighboring sins.
So: what kind of women, if any, am I likely to be compatible with, and how should I be trying to meet them? Or should I just resign myself to only having casual and FWB relationships, or illicit affairs, or not dating at all? And if I'm otherwise compatible with someone, to what degree should I be willing to fake some jealousy to try to make it work?
Details: I'm straight, male, early '30s, and this has been consistent and increasingly noticeable for at least ten years.
First, it obviously makes me less inclined to monogamy. Even if I'm very emotionally & physically intimate with someone, it wouldn't bother me if they were equally intimate with someone else. And it feels odd to agree to something myself that I don't even want from them.
That might sound like I'm "poly," but I can't relate to that either, even after talking with some smart friends who identify that way. It doesn't feel like part of my identity. And if I find someone to settle down with, I expect I'll wind up monogamous (at least on my end) and be perfectly happy that way.
Actually, my inclination is the opposite of the long-term couple who decides to "open" their relationship: I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it. My reasoning is that it's hard enough to find someone who's a good match in other ways, so you should take the easiest and lowest-drama option as far as exclusivity. When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
To state the obvious, most women I meet do not share this view, or even quite know what to make of it (even though I live in a big liberal cosmopolitan city). Whenever I get involved with someone, she picks up on this trait and is really bothered by it. Everyone knows the stereotype (true or not) of how men are more reluctant than women to be be faithful themselves, but the idea that I genuinely wouldn't care what she does . . . even in great relationships with real long-term potential where I've agreed to be monogamous, we're hanging out (and having sex) frequently and I'm generally very affectionate, it seems to be a nagging source of stress and insecurity. Among other things, partners will invariably give me little "tests" like "my ex is in town," "this guy at my office is so hot," etc. - and get very frustrated when I don't rise to the bait and make at least a playful show of concern.
I don't think they're being deliberately manipulative. I think it's just one of the little games that many of us play, often only semi-consciously, to solicit affection and affirmation. Most people are at least a bit jealous and possessive of a partner they care about, so it's natural to interpret a complete lack of those things as their partner not really being that into them. But I just don't seem to be wired that way. I can be completely into someone, and the idea of her having another lover still doesn't feel any different than if she had a close platonic friend.
Can anyone relate to this? Is it maybe more common than I think? Sometimes I think that what I've just described is just the near-universal battle of the sexes among urban singles -- but then when I talk to single male friends, they don't seem to get it. Most are willing to allow their partner to see other people in order to keep that privilege themselves (again, the standard male stereotype), but none are indifferent to the prospect. For them it's a tradeoff. And that's a big difference.
I've thought about some other potential explanations, such as:
- for whatever reason I'm attracting (or attracted to) particularly insecure women
- i'm really NOT that into any of the women I've dated, and when I meet my real soulmate I'll be jealous again
- this is a symptom of another problem, like depression, narcissism, aspergers, sociopathy :) . . .
Without boring you with the details, I'm pretty sure that none of these fit. And FWIW I seem to be more or less average in terms of envy, vanity, greed and other neighboring sins.
So: what kind of women, if any, am I likely to be compatible with, and how should I be trying to meet them? Or should I just resign myself to only having casual and FWB relationships, or illicit affairs, or not dating at all? And if I'm otherwise compatible with someone, to what degree should I be willing to fake some jealousy to try to make it work?
You're talking about two things: your nonexistent need for monogamy, and your girlfriends' low-grade need for affirmation. Is there any reason you can't respond to the mention of exes and hot guys with either affirmation or "at least a playful show of concern"? Those probes aren't about your jealousy or lack thereof, they're about her desirability.
posted by headnsouth at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't think it is your lack of jealousy that is causing the problem, but this: "I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it".
Are you communicating this to the women you date? I think you just need to be clear (and maybe you already are), about the way you are in relationships, not into monogamy, don't expect it from partners. Could be one day if it is convenient.
I think the tests that you describe could be? a way of understanding the above.
Also, what headsnouth said.
posted by nanook at 5:52 PM on April 17, 2013
Are you communicating this to the women you date? I think you just need to be clear (and maybe you already are), about the way you are in relationships, not into monogamy, don't expect it from partners. Could be one day if it is convenient.
I think the tests that you describe could be? a way of understanding the above.
Also, what headsnouth said.
posted by nanook at 5:52 PM on April 17, 2013
So: what kind of women, if any, am I likely to be compatible with, and how should I be trying to meet them?
This really seems like the kind of (perfectly legit) preference that an online dating site would be perfect for. To wit, you could simply put something like this on your profile:
I seem to have a near-total lack of romantic jealousy. It's not that I've never experienced jealousy or can't relate to it, just that my dial seems to be turned down unusually low... I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it....When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
Back when I was online dating, I certainly saw lengthier and more unusual answers to the section titled, "What I'm looking for" (or whatever variant the dating site used for that section). There are probably plenty of women out there who will respond positively (and with a sense of startled and pleased recognition) to your particular set of desires/ideals, and OKCupid (and other, inferior sites - ha) will steer you to them.
posted by artemisia at 5:54 PM on April 17, 2013
This really seems like the kind of (perfectly legit) preference that an online dating site would be perfect for. To wit, you could simply put something like this on your profile:
I seem to have a near-total lack of romantic jealousy. It's not that I've never experienced jealousy or can't relate to it, just that my dial seems to be turned down unusually low... I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it....When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
Back when I was online dating, I certainly saw lengthier and more unusual answers to the section titled, "What I'm looking for" (or whatever variant the dating site used for that section). There are probably plenty of women out there who will respond positively (and with a sense of startled and pleased recognition) to your particular set of desires/ideals, and OKCupid (and other, inferior sites - ha) will steer you to them.
posted by artemisia at 5:54 PM on April 17, 2013
I think it's just one of the little games that many of us play, often only semi-consciously, to solicit affection and affirmation.
Do you have reason to believe that they're trying to get more affection or affirmation from you?
natural to interpret a complete lack of those things as their partner not really being that into them.
Do they seem to think that you're not that into them? Do you show them affection and affirmation in other ways that have nothing to do with jealousy/exes/etc?
I ask these questions because being low on the jealousy scale isn’t as uncommon as you might think. Many people feel as you do and have very healthy relationships (I'm one of them). I would wonder if maybe you're displaying* less interest then most people need to feel appreciated and secure in a relationship, and what you're seeing is their attempts at fishing around to determine if you have any actual feelings for them.
*(but not necessarily feeling)
posted by Shouraku at 5:54 PM on April 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Do you have reason to believe that they're trying to get more affection or affirmation from you?
natural to interpret a complete lack of those things as their partner not really being that into them.
Do they seem to think that you're not that into them? Do you show them affection and affirmation in other ways that have nothing to do with jealousy/exes/etc?
I ask these questions because being low on the jealousy scale isn’t as uncommon as you might think. Many people feel as you do and have very healthy relationships (I'm one of them). I would wonder if maybe you're displaying* less interest then most people need to feel appreciated and secure in a relationship, and what you're seeing is their attempts at fishing around to determine if you have any actual feelings for them.
*(but not necessarily feeling)
posted by Shouraku at 5:54 PM on April 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
It does sound like you aren't really into the women you are dating, but mostly in the way you describe "great relationships" in terms of objective facts like long term potential, frequency of hanging out, etc. rather than subjective feelings about the other person.
Your reasoning about it being easier and less drama to be non-exclusive before you are living together doesn't make sense. The whole point of your question is that it's not easy to tell women you're dating that you don't care about them being monogamous, and it's far from the low-drama option. So what's the real reason you're inclined to be monogamous when you're living together? Probably because you imagine that you would feel possessive about the person you'd want to live with.
posted by AlsoMike at 6:13 PM on April 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
Your reasoning about it being easier and less drama to be non-exclusive before you are living together doesn't make sense. The whole point of your question is that it's not easy to tell women you're dating that you don't care about them being monogamous, and it's far from the low-drama option. So what's the real reason you're inclined to be monogamous when you're living together? Probably because you imagine that you would feel possessive about the person you'd want to live with.
posted by AlsoMike at 6:13 PM on April 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
I am a woman with nearly nonexistent levels of romantic jealousy. Once I started limiting my romantic partners to men who also shared this trait, I was generally much happier in my relationships.
Ok Cupid has lots of those "how compatible are you" questions about jealousy to help you filter, or your could try looking in the poly community, which includes many people who fall into the "just aren't that jealous so why not" category as well as people who really see poly as part of their identity.
Finally, I'd suggest that there are more and less effective ways to frame the non-jealousy issue with people who want an exclusive relationship. Absolutely do make it clear that you understand jealousy is a real emotion many people experience, don't call it illogical or suggest people with low levels of jealousy are somehow superior. And make it clear monogamy is something you're happy to do for them, not something you're grudgingly tolerating.
The phrasing that worked for me was something along the lines of "No, monogamy isn't important to me, but right now I'm really caught up in you and don't want to spend time with anyone else that could be spent with you, so I'm happy to agree to it. I'll let you know if that changes, and I hope you'll do the same for me."
posted by psycheslamp at 6:15 PM on April 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Ok Cupid has lots of those "how compatible are you" questions about jealousy to help you filter, or your could try looking in the poly community, which includes many people who fall into the "just aren't that jealous so why not" category as well as people who really see poly as part of their identity.
Finally, I'd suggest that there are more and less effective ways to frame the non-jealousy issue with people who want an exclusive relationship. Absolutely do make it clear that you understand jealousy is a real emotion many people experience, don't call it illogical or suggest people with low levels of jealousy are somehow superior. And make it clear monogamy is something you're happy to do for them, not something you're grudgingly tolerating.
The phrasing that worked for me was something along the lines of "No, monogamy isn't important to me, but right now I'm really caught up in you and don't want to spend time with anyone else that could be spent with you, so I'm happy to agree to it. I'll let you know if that changes, and I hope you'll do the same for me."
posted by psycheslamp at 6:15 PM on April 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
You can play the game, but it doesn't have to be on their terms. Making a grand show of jealousy isn't the only "winning" move.
As for monogamy, you might want to recalibrate. It doesn't sound like you are poly, rather, it sounds like you just don't want to commit, and thus logically don't have that expectation from your partners. That's OK, but many, many people want some kind of indication that you are serious about the relationship. (Whatever that is.) They want to know that you care for them and would at least be a little pissed off if they left you. And that you aren't going to just wander off when some other shiny object crosses your path.
And maybe you just aren't meeting compatible people, and these clashes are nature's way of ending doomed relationships.
posted by gjc at 6:23 PM on April 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
As for monogamy, you might want to recalibrate. It doesn't sound like you are poly, rather, it sounds like you just don't want to commit, and thus logically don't have that expectation from your partners. That's OK, but many, many people want some kind of indication that you are serious about the relationship. (Whatever that is.) They want to know that you care for them and would at least be a little pissed off if they left you. And that you aren't going to just wander off when some other shiny object crosses your path.
And maybe you just aren't meeting compatible people, and these clashes are nature's way of ending doomed relationships.
posted by gjc at 6:23 PM on April 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
"And it feels odd to agree to something myself that I don't even want from them."
Really?
Would it feel odd to agree to do the dishes in exchange for your roommate taking out the trash? Or to agree to be quiet if someone else has a headache even though you don't mind loud noise? Different people value different things and this is totally normal. The highly usual course is that you either acceed to stopping behaviors or privileges you don't particularly care about if for some reason it matters to someone else, or you work out an equivalent exchange if it does matter to you. Negotiation and compromise.
You're framing this question in sort of a strange way, I think. This whole narrative like "I must innately be (subtext: biologically or via destiny or something) literally incapable of feeling jealousy" is, to be brutally honest, a load of steaming bunk. I mean, yeah, maybe it's in your very genes or "your dial is set" as you put it, but that narrative just takes all the responsibility off of you and serves to make you "different in a way you just can't help" which is conveniently distracting.
The point is that you want to date non-exclusively longer than many women want to. Sounds to me like that's not a particularly special snowflake issue at all, frankly, even if you're currently seeing it that way. That is more or less what it comes down to, no? Otherwise the lack of jealousy would not matter, and it certainly doesn't force you to be non-monogamous. So yeah, essentially a relatively common problem, to be solved by realizing that people have different priorities and you'll probably have to compromise in some way.
posted by quincunx at 6:35 PM on April 17, 2013 [24 favorites]
Really?
Would it feel odd to agree to do the dishes in exchange for your roommate taking out the trash? Or to agree to be quiet if someone else has a headache even though you don't mind loud noise? Different people value different things and this is totally normal. The highly usual course is that you either acceed to stopping behaviors or privileges you don't particularly care about if for some reason it matters to someone else, or you work out an equivalent exchange if it does matter to you. Negotiation and compromise.
You're framing this question in sort of a strange way, I think. This whole narrative like "I must innately be (subtext: biologically or via destiny or something) literally incapable of feeling jealousy" is, to be brutally honest, a load of steaming bunk. I mean, yeah, maybe it's in your very genes or "your dial is set" as you put it, but that narrative just takes all the responsibility off of you and serves to make you "different in a way you just can't help" which is conveniently distracting.
The point is that you want to date non-exclusively longer than many women want to. Sounds to me like that's not a particularly special snowflake issue at all, frankly, even if you're currently seeing it that way. That is more or less what it comes down to, no? Otherwise the lack of jealousy would not matter, and it certainly doesn't force you to be non-monogamous. So yeah, essentially a relatively common problem, to be solved by realizing that people have different priorities and you'll probably have to compromise in some way.
posted by quincunx at 6:35 PM on April 17, 2013 [24 favorites]
It sounds like having a romantic relationship is just a lower priority for you when compared to people who end up living with their partner in a monogamous setup.
As in - most don't just end up living with someone they like having sex with and then end up monogamous because that is the convenient low drama option. The vast majority of people very actively pursue this as a very high priority (if not the highest) - the finding and wooing of the life partner thing??
I think you could explain this if this fits by saying you are not interested in getting super serious in the foreseeable future and have no plans to marry. That will rule out the women who want to feel like the relationship has a trajectory and intensity that you are not going to naturally know how or desire to provide.
posted by skrozidile at 6:37 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
As in - most don't just end up living with someone they like having sex with and then end up monogamous because that is the convenient low drama option. The vast majority of people very actively pursue this as a very high priority (if not the highest) - the finding and wooing of the life partner thing??
I think you could explain this if this fits by saying you are not interested in getting super serious in the foreseeable future and have no plans to marry. That will rule out the women who want to feel like the relationship has a trajectory and intensity that you are not going to naturally know how or desire to provide.
posted by skrozidile at 6:37 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
you mention not wanting drama and wanting things to be as easy as possible. you may just not be someone who has much passion in life. do you want things rather to be equanimous and low key?
it could also be you just don't let yourself feel things deeply because that would scare you. fear of intimacy possibly or just the fear of feeling things deeply and being fully present with someone? it can be easier to be a bit detached than fully there with someone. do strong feelings make you uncomfortable?
honestly, it's hard to tell because we don't know how you are in other areas of life or much about your background. are you a passionate person in other areas of life like your career or hobbies or are you just pretty low key and detached about everything?
posted by wildflower at 7:03 PM on April 17, 2013
it could also be you just don't let yourself feel things deeply because that would scare you. fear of intimacy possibly or just the fear of feeling things deeply and being fully present with someone? it can be easier to be a bit detached than fully there with someone. do strong feelings make you uncomfortable?
honestly, it's hard to tell because we don't know how you are in other areas of life or much about your background. are you a passionate person in other areas of life like your career or hobbies or are you just pretty low key and detached about everything?
posted by wildflower at 7:03 PM on April 17, 2013
Hi! I'm a moderately insecure person who has been happily partnered to a guy like you for more than ten years. It was weird, because at first I took his lack of jealousy to be a sign of, I don't know, romantic disinterest? But I was eighteen back then.
I've since gotten therapy (yay!) and, over time, come to really appreciate my relationship with my husband. We're not the least bit poly (it would work for him, but not for me), but I'm allowed a wonderful amount of freedom in terms of my friendships with other men, in terms of being able to talk to who I want, in terms of being able to share myself fully ("Oh man, guess who I had a sex dream about last night? It was ridiculous!") And it's great! So much better than all that drama.
That being said, he's very attentive and loving in other ways (like he just brought me tea he made, without prompting!). He's affectionate. A good lover. We communicate well. He's giving and meets my needs. So I've come to realize that I don't need to create drama to be loved. Aaand . . . he understands that I wouldn't be comfortable with him schtupping someone else, and he's okay with that. He's never shown any interest in anyone else.
Even if I'm very emotionally & physically intimate with someone, it wouldn't bother me if they were equally intimate with someone else. And it feels odd to agree to something myself that I don't even want from them.
Well, here's the thing. It's wonderful that you are low maintenance and low drama. But most people are going to want monogamy--this doesn't even make them high maintenance or high drama, but rather, pretty normal. It might not "bother you" to be poly, but that doesn't mean that being monogamous is a "bother."
So anyway, I'd just find someone who is fairly secure in their self-image, who also wants a low-drama relationship, and go on from there. We are out there--but we may want you all to ourselves, even if that's something that's not important to you. The key is to meet your partner's needs as they arise, not to worry about the fairness of boundaries and strictures with a person who doesn't even exist yet.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've since gotten therapy (yay!) and, over time, come to really appreciate my relationship with my husband. We're not the least bit poly (it would work for him, but not for me), but I'm allowed a wonderful amount of freedom in terms of my friendships with other men, in terms of being able to talk to who I want, in terms of being able to share myself fully ("Oh man, guess who I had a sex dream about last night? It was ridiculous!") And it's great! So much better than all that drama.
That being said, he's very attentive and loving in other ways (like he just brought me tea he made, without prompting!). He's affectionate. A good lover. We communicate well. He's giving and meets my needs. So I've come to realize that I don't need to create drama to be loved. Aaand . . . he understands that I wouldn't be comfortable with him schtupping someone else, and he's okay with that. He's never shown any interest in anyone else.
Even if I'm very emotionally & physically intimate with someone, it wouldn't bother me if they were equally intimate with someone else. And it feels odd to agree to something myself that I don't even want from them.
Well, here's the thing. It's wonderful that you are low maintenance and low drama. But most people are going to want monogamy--this doesn't even make them high maintenance or high drama, but rather, pretty normal. It might not "bother you" to be poly, but that doesn't mean that being monogamous is a "bother."
So anyway, I'd just find someone who is fairly secure in their self-image, who also wants a low-drama relationship, and go on from there. We are out there--but we may want you all to ourselves, even if that's something that's not important to you. The key is to meet your partner's needs as they arise, not to worry about the fairness of boundaries and strictures with a person who doesn't even exist yet.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can relate to this because I'm very similar in some ways. I absolutely don't care whether I'm in a polygamous relationship or a monogamous relationship, as long as I'm "getting a good deal" - which for me is defined as having approximately the same amount of outside sex as my partner. This isn't so much about the sex itself - rather it's just that I feel insulted when I feel that I'm part of a "stable" of men (which is the feeling I get when I'm dating an attractive poly woman) without my partner being in an equivalent position. (That way, neither of us has a status advantage over the other.) Obviously I rarely advertise this to the women I'm dating since jealousy can be a significant issue, as you pointed out. Even when the woman is poly, they usually aren't open to my dealbreaker condition of "you don't get more sex outside the relationship than me" so generally I tend to find myself in monogamous relationships. (There's only one woman I ever hooked up with who knew this about me and was OK with it.)
I think that most people tend to view the world through a shortsighted "polyamorous or monogamous" polarity where you're either more inclined to one or the other, without realizing that there are people for whom this duality doesn't matter at all, as long as our other needs are met. It's not unreasonable since for maybe 90% of people the "poly or mono" thing is really a big deal, but it sort of screws over the rest of us.
Personally, I recommend keeping this trait low-profile unless your partner brings it up. Be advised that she may bring it up in a very roundabout and indirect way, like "I read an article which suggest that monogamous relationships are illogical." (Watches you closely to gauge your reaction.) That gives her plausible deniability if you're not into what she's suggesting. It's important to keep your eyes open for this kind of subtle phrasing since conversations about alternate sexuality often tend to be broached at a more oblique angle (at least in the circles that I'm familiar with).
posted by wolfdreams01 at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think that most people tend to view the world through a shortsighted "polyamorous or monogamous" polarity where you're either more inclined to one or the other, without realizing that there are people for whom this duality doesn't matter at all, as long as our other needs are met. It's not unreasonable since for maybe 90% of people the "poly or mono" thing is really a big deal, but it sort of screws over the rest of us.
Personally, I recommend keeping this trait low-profile unless your partner brings it up. Be advised that she may bring it up in a very roundabout and indirect way, like "I read an article which suggest that monogamous relationships are illogical." (Watches you closely to gauge your reaction.) That gives her plausible deniability if you're not into what she's suggesting. It's important to keep your eyes open for this kind of subtle phrasing since conversations about alternate sexuality often tend to be broached at a more oblique angle (at least in the circles that I'm familiar with).
posted by wolfdreams01 at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, I recommend camouflaging yourself to fit in with whatever sexual environment you're dating in. For example, when I date alternate women from the goth or fetish scene, I'm pretty forthcoming about my sexual openness. When I'm dating women from more conservative environments, I tend to talk about how I think commitment is important. (Which is true - I value emotional commitment.) The fact that you're flexible about this actually is an advantage because you have a wider range of people you're compatible with - it's just that you need to open with the part of your personality that is more likely to appeal to them, and reveal your "fluidity" over time, if you think it might appeal to them.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 7:57 PM on April 17, 2013
posted by wolfdreams01 at 7:57 PM on April 17, 2013
I'm exactly like you. In trying to understand this about myself, I noticed that I'm also very status unconscious. This means that I have very little ego, and I don't feel propped up or put down by things others say or do. (This has plusses and minuses... confidence and comfort on one hand, occasional social gaffes on the other hand.)
I think that sometimes sexual jealousy has a status component to it. People feel put down by the thought of their partner having sex outside the relationship. I don't feel put down by that, because I don't viscerally care about social status very much. My main concerns are whether outside sex will break us up, make things unstable and disrupt my life, etc. I'm not a sociopath though... I have plenty of empathy.
Like you, I have been open to poly relationships mostly because I don't really care who my partner is having sex with. It's less about what I need, and I could be happy monogamous, at least for the most part. (I might get bored after a long long time and want to open things up a bit, but that's different from having a strong poly orientation overall.)
Also like you, my partners have thought I wasn't all that into them because I didn't get jealous and didn't create a lot of drama. My solution to this is that it basically solves itself... relationships with drama kings/queens don't tend to last, whereas relationships with more even keeled and positive people do. I have had some sadness when I wasn't bringing the jealousy/intensity enough and a partner left me, but what can you do?
I have also noticed that my type of person is rare, and most people get jealous much more than I do. Sometimes I have thought myself to be bizarre. I've wondered whether it has to do with brain wiring, or something about my upbringing (big family, not much money, not much possessiveness overall). I am still not sure.
I think that with the right partner, you probably won't have to fake too much jealousy to make it work. But it's really hard to predict in advance. There are always tradeoffs in relationships. In my most successful relationship, I never had to fake jealousy but it WAS helpful for me to amplify the way I expressed my desire for the other person. "I want you, I like you, I want you to stay home from your trip, please do stuff with me," etc. It was just a hair more than what I'd normally express, though it didn't feel too unnatural.
posted by htid at 8:20 PM on April 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think that sometimes sexual jealousy has a status component to it. People feel put down by the thought of their partner having sex outside the relationship. I don't feel put down by that, because I don't viscerally care about social status very much. My main concerns are whether outside sex will break us up, make things unstable and disrupt my life, etc. I'm not a sociopath though... I have plenty of empathy.
Like you, I have been open to poly relationships mostly because I don't really care who my partner is having sex with. It's less about what I need, and I could be happy monogamous, at least for the most part. (I might get bored after a long long time and want to open things up a bit, but that's different from having a strong poly orientation overall.)
Also like you, my partners have thought I wasn't all that into them because I didn't get jealous and didn't create a lot of drama. My solution to this is that it basically solves itself... relationships with drama kings/queens don't tend to last, whereas relationships with more even keeled and positive people do. I have had some sadness when I wasn't bringing the jealousy/intensity enough and a partner left me, but what can you do?
I have also noticed that my type of person is rare, and most people get jealous much more than I do. Sometimes I have thought myself to be bizarre. I've wondered whether it has to do with brain wiring, or something about my upbringing (big family, not much money, not much possessiveness overall). I am still not sure.
I think that with the right partner, you probably won't have to fake too much jealousy to make it work. But it's really hard to predict in advance. There are always tradeoffs in relationships. In my most successful relationship, I never had to fake jealousy but it WAS helpful for me to amplify the way I expressed my desire for the other person. "I want you, I like you, I want you to stay home from your trip, please do stuff with me," etc. It was just a hair more than what I'd normally express, though it didn't feel too unnatural.
posted by htid at 8:20 PM on April 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
First, it obviously makes me less inclined to monogamy.
I don't think that's obvious at all.
I think your confusion between monogamy and jealousy is the source of your problem here. It seems like you believe that people (men?) are monogamous only because of their own feelings of jealousy. While I'm sure some people agree to monogamy out of romantic jealousy, I hardly think that is the primary motivating factor for most exclusive couples. Some people might find monogamy more intimate, others might be in it for the convenience, comfort, security. Still others, when in a fulfilling relationship, just plain aren't even interested in diverting their sexual or emotional energy elsewhere.
Not to say non-monogamy isn't a valid choice. And I certainly won't disagree with the general statement that people in healthy and successful non-monogamous relationships are generally either non-jealous types, or exceptionally good at communicating and dealing with feelings of jealousy. But non-monogamous folks aren't non-monogamous because they aren't jealous -- they choose to be non-monogamous for all sorts of reasons. (And did you know that there are some people in non-monogamous relationships who actually get off on injecting a little jealousy into their love life?)
So, I encourage you to stop thinking that those who want monogamous relationships = jealous and/or insecure. If you are dating someone who drops a lot of references to meeting with ex-boyfriends to gauge your reaction, then yes, you are dating an insecure person. But you must separate that out from a person who is looking for an exclusive relationship. The two are not synonymous.
If I were you, I'd drop the jealousy framework, and ask myself, "what am I looking for in a romantic relationship?" Maybe you never want to be exclusive. Maybe you do in the right circumstances. Whatever it is -- be completely up front about it as early as possible in your interactions with women. Don't hide your intentions. There are women out there who will share your preference -- don't bother trying to muddle through with those who don't. They will be hurt, and you will be frustrated.
I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it. My reasoning is that it's hard enough to find someone who's a good match in other ways, so you should take the easiest and lowest-drama option as far as exclusivity. When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
Your preference is your preference -- but what you have here is an extremely hard sell that has approximately nothing to do with a potential partner's jealousy. Let me walk you through it. Right now, you are looking for a woman who tends to non-monogamy so that you can be on the same drama free page. Let's say after awhile, things get serious, and you move in together. Odds are, your girlfriend who prefers non-monogamy isn't all of a sudden going to want to close off the relationship because you share a home. Is that going to be a problem for you?
On the other side of the coin, maybe you are telling women you can see yourself in a monogamous relationship "one day." This is an obvious recipe for disaster. First, it's opaque, and that's not cool. Second, there are unfortunately a lot of bad ideas out there about men, women, and monogamy, and consequently, there are a not unsubstantial amount of women who will read "one day" as "definitely, if you are special enough to make me." In other words, if you are dating women who are looking for something exclusive you are really doing something wrong.
Sure, maybe you will find the perfect partner who, like you, wants to be non-monogamous until move in day. But I think it would probably benefit you to delve into what's behind your thinking here. Is it really "ease"? (Have you lived with a romantic partner? I respectfully challenge your assumptions as to whether it's "easier" to be exclusive when you are dealing with that person around the clock, warts and all). Do you ultimately like the idea of ending up in a traditional monogamous relationship? Or do you think you have to dangle the possibility of monogamy to have a chance at dating?
Everyone knows the stereotype (true or not) of how men are more reluctant than women to be be faithful themselves, but the idea that I genuinely wouldn't care what she does . . . even in great relationships with real long-term potential where I've agreed to be monogamous, we're hanging out (and having sex) frequently and I'm generally very affectionate, it seems to be a nagging source of stress and insecurity.
One last thought, setting aside monogamy or non-monogamy for the moment. You aren't a jealous person. That's awesome. Many potential partners will adore your lack of jealousy because jealousy can be scary and downright ugly. But there's a difference between being low key and saying, "hey, I totally wouldn't care if you went out tonight and slept with every guy at the club." Sure, some people would probably find that totally hot, or not give a shit about your lack of interest. But many partners -- exclusive or nonexclusive -- are going to be bothered when their partner says that they don't care about what the other partner does.
People in relationships care about each other. They might not be possessive. They might not have qualms about their partner being physically intimate with other people. But there's an important disctinction between lack of jealousy and nothing-you-can-do-will-ever-hurt-me. Couples -- even the most easygoing -- have relationship boundaries. Whether spoken or unspoken, making and respecting the rules of a relationship is a mutual expression of love. (Even if the rules are as minimal as: wear a condom and don't get involved with coworkers.).
If you don't care, it doesn't mean that you are a terrible person. It might be as simple as you not having met the right long term partner. That's ok. If you do meet someone with long term potential, however, you might want to spend some time reflecting on how you express your lack of jealousy to them. Part of this will be understanding that emotional isolation isn't the opposite of jealousy. There's a way to let a woman know you aren't the jealous type without sounding as if you wouldn't even notice that she ran off with your brother for a week.
TL;DR Separate your lack of jealousy from your feelings about monogamy, be honest with yourself about what you want, and then be honest with your potential partners about same.
posted by murfed13 at 10:12 PM on April 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
I don't think that's obvious at all.
I think your confusion between monogamy and jealousy is the source of your problem here. It seems like you believe that people (men?) are monogamous only because of their own feelings of jealousy. While I'm sure some people agree to monogamy out of romantic jealousy, I hardly think that is the primary motivating factor for most exclusive couples. Some people might find monogamy more intimate, others might be in it for the convenience, comfort, security. Still others, when in a fulfilling relationship, just plain aren't even interested in diverting their sexual or emotional energy elsewhere.
Not to say non-monogamy isn't a valid choice. And I certainly won't disagree with the general statement that people in healthy and successful non-monogamous relationships are generally either non-jealous types, or exceptionally good at communicating and dealing with feelings of jealousy. But non-monogamous folks aren't non-monogamous because they aren't jealous -- they choose to be non-monogamous for all sorts of reasons. (And did you know that there are some people in non-monogamous relationships who actually get off on injecting a little jealousy into their love life?)
So, I encourage you to stop thinking that those who want monogamous relationships = jealous and/or insecure. If you are dating someone who drops a lot of references to meeting with ex-boyfriends to gauge your reaction, then yes, you are dating an insecure person. But you must separate that out from a person who is looking for an exclusive relationship. The two are not synonymous.
If I were you, I'd drop the jealousy framework, and ask myself, "what am I looking for in a romantic relationship?" Maybe you never want to be exclusive. Maybe you do in the right circumstances. Whatever it is -- be completely up front about it as early as possible in your interactions with women. Don't hide your intentions. There are women out there who will share your preference -- don't bother trying to muddle through with those who don't. They will be hurt, and you will be frustrated.
I feel like once I moved in with someone, I'd probably rather be monogamous, but before that, I don't see much point to it. My reasoning is that it's hard enough to find someone who's a good match in other ways, so you should take the easiest and lowest-drama option as far as exclusivity. When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
Your preference is your preference -- but what you have here is an extremely hard sell that has approximately nothing to do with a potential partner's jealousy. Let me walk you through it. Right now, you are looking for a woman who tends to non-monogamy so that you can be on the same drama free page. Let's say after awhile, things get serious, and you move in together. Odds are, your girlfriend who prefers non-monogamy isn't all of a sudden going to want to close off the relationship because you share a home. Is that going to be a problem for you?
On the other side of the coin, maybe you are telling women you can see yourself in a monogamous relationship "one day." This is an obvious recipe for disaster. First, it's opaque, and that's not cool. Second, there are unfortunately a lot of bad ideas out there about men, women, and monogamy, and consequently, there are a not unsubstantial amount of women who will read "one day" as "definitely, if you are special enough to make me." In other words, if you are dating women who are looking for something exclusive you are really doing something wrong.
Sure, maybe you will find the perfect partner who, like you, wants to be non-monogamous until move in day. But I think it would probably benefit you to delve into what's behind your thinking here. Is it really "ease"? (Have you lived with a romantic partner? I respectfully challenge your assumptions as to whether it's "easier" to be exclusive when you are dealing with that person around the clock, warts and all). Do you ultimately like the idea of ending up in a traditional monogamous relationship? Or do you think you have to dangle the possibility of monogamy to have a chance at dating?
Everyone knows the stereotype (true or not) of how men are more reluctant than women to be be faithful themselves, but the idea that I genuinely wouldn't care what she does . . . even in great relationships with real long-term potential where I've agreed to be monogamous, we're hanging out (and having sex) frequently and I'm generally very affectionate, it seems to be a nagging source of stress and insecurity.
One last thought, setting aside monogamy or non-monogamy for the moment. You aren't a jealous person. That's awesome. Many potential partners will adore your lack of jealousy because jealousy can be scary and downright ugly. But there's a difference between being low key and saying, "hey, I totally wouldn't care if you went out tonight and slept with every guy at the club." Sure, some people would probably find that totally hot, or not give a shit about your lack of interest. But many partners -- exclusive or nonexclusive -- are going to be bothered when their partner says that they don't care about what the other partner does.
People in relationships care about each other. They might not be possessive. They might not have qualms about their partner being physically intimate with other people. But there's an important disctinction between lack of jealousy and nothing-you-can-do-will-ever-hurt-me. Couples -- even the most easygoing -- have relationship boundaries. Whether spoken or unspoken, making and respecting the rules of a relationship is a mutual expression of love. (Even if the rules are as minimal as: wear a condom and don't get involved with coworkers.).
If you don't care, it doesn't mean that you are a terrible person. It might be as simple as you not having met the right long term partner. That's ok. If you do meet someone with long term potential, however, you might want to spend some time reflecting on how you express your lack of jealousy to them. Part of this will be understanding that emotional isolation isn't the opposite of jealousy. There's a way to let a woman know you aren't the jealous type without sounding as if you wouldn't even notice that she ran off with your brother for a week.
TL;DR Separate your lack of jealousy from your feelings about monogamy, be honest with yourself about what you want, and then be honest with your potential partners about same.
posted by murfed13 at 10:12 PM on April 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
Basically what murfed said about separating your feelings.
I don't experience jealousy much and I'm also fairly ambivalent about monogamy vs polyamory. This makes me incompatible with a lot of people, a lot of them insecure or otherwise normative, and yeah that's kind of inconvenient but I don't really mind. I would much rather accept this aspect of myself than pretend to go along with normative jealousy. Granted, I have the helpful bonus of being gay so there's a lot less pressure on me in that respect.
Basically, you're not alone and I wouldn't consider it a sign of a psychiatric issue.
posted by buteo at 10:44 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't experience jealousy much and I'm also fairly ambivalent about monogamy vs polyamory. This makes me incompatible with a lot of people, a lot of them insecure or otherwise normative, and yeah that's kind of inconvenient but I don't really mind. I would much rather accept this aspect of myself than pretend to go along with normative jealousy. Granted, I have the helpful bonus of being gay so there's a lot less pressure on me in that respect.
Basically, you're not alone and I wouldn't consider it a sign of a psychiatric issue.
posted by buteo at 10:44 PM on April 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Since the monogamy thing has generally been covered, I just want to reiterate what murfed13 said about people in relationships care about each other. Saying "I don't care what she does" comes off cold, whether you're talking about sex or, like, grad school. In my world, if you care about me, you care about what's important to me. It might not be important to you, but you still care. Saying "I don't care" may be honest, but you can't seriously fault these women for not swooning over you after you tell them that.
Frankly, many many women (and men) have grown up viewing some level of jealousy and possessiveness as a sign of caring. I have. Controlling, bossy, boundary-violating jealousy? Hell no. But no possessiveness at all? Not being the slightest bit hurt if I would rather spend my weekend with some hot guy from the club than with you? That cuts right to the core of what we assume relationships are for, what we believe, and what we want. Many people want to be someone's "only," even more at the very least want to be the "favorite." Why? Because we feel special. You saying "well, I like you, sure, and I like sleeping with you, but I'm not even going to pretend that you're my favorite, and I don't get any sense of satisfaction or pleasure at the idea of being your favorite either" does not make me feel special; I can get that level of commitment and emotion from my grocery clerk (or a one-night stand). Before you get into a relationship again, you might want to (a) think about what if anything exactly DOES make this person "special" to you, what that means, and (b) if there are things that make them special, make it very damned clear to that person. If you agree to be monogamous, make it very damn clear that you are agreeing because this person is special enough that you take joy in doing what makes them happy; if that isn't true, don't lie and don't sell the poor woman short on finding someone who does think that of her.
posted by celtalitha at 10:46 PM on April 17, 2013 [17 favorites]
Frankly, many many women (and men) have grown up viewing some level of jealousy and possessiveness as a sign of caring. I have. Controlling, bossy, boundary-violating jealousy? Hell no. But no possessiveness at all? Not being the slightest bit hurt if I would rather spend my weekend with some hot guy from the club than with you? That cuts right to the core of what we assume relationships are for, what we believe, and what we want. Many people want to be someone's "only," even more at the very least want to be the "favorite." Why? Because we feel special. You saying "well, I like you, sure, and I like sleeping with you, but I'm not even going to pretend that you're my favorite, and I don't get any sense of satisfaction or pleasure at the idea of being your favorite either" does not make me feel special; I can get that level of commitment and emotion from my grocery clerk (or a one-night stand). Before you get into a relationship again, you might want to (a) think about what if anything exactly DOES make this person "special" to you, what that means, and (b) if there are things that make them special, make it very damned clear to that person. If you agree to be monogamous, make it very damn clear that you are agreeing because this person is special enough that you take joy in doing what makes them happy; if that isn't true, don't lie and don't sell the poor woman short on finding someone who does think that of her.
posted by celtalitha at 10:46 PM on April 17, 2013 [17 favorites]
celtalithia put it best.
You've posed the question in a way that sounds like, "gee, isn't it funny that I'm so rational! Wonder why chicks don't understand that?"
As others have pointed out, look what you say your preferences are: dating nonexclusively until you live together, and only then going exclusive and only because it's the least "drama" (no schedule disruption? No strangers tromping through your bedroom?)
That doesn't sound like it's "rational" so much as it sounds like you have no particular attachment to the women in question, who could be anybody, who could just go away altogether without having any effect on your life beyond the logistical. I'm pretty "rational" myself and that's what I'd think of you, if I were in a relationship with you. So I agree that the women pulling the Jealousy Plotlines on you are trying to probe whether you have any feelings for them in particular or whether they were just fungible commodities. Call it childish or manipulative if you will, but a truly manipulative or childish person would have done a lot worse. (Maybe they did and you didn't notice?)
tl;dr Your question comes across like you've never been in love, regardless of how you may have felt inside, and that's the main reason why people get into relationships, so coming across like this is bound to cause problems.
posted by tel3path at 1:02 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
You've posed the question in a way that sounds like, "gee, isn't it funny that I'm so rational! Wonder why chicks don't understand that?"
As others have pointed out, look what you say your preferences are: dating nonexclusively until you live together, and only then going exclusive and only because it's the least "drama" (no schedule disruption? No strangers tromping through your bedroom?)
That doesn't sound like it's "rational" so much as it sounds like you have no particular attachment to the women in question, who could be anybody, who could just go away altogether without having any effect on your life beyond the logistical. I'm pretty "rational" myself and that's what I'd think of you, if I were in a relationship with you. So I agree that the women pulling the Jealousy Plotlines on you are trying to probe whether you have any feelings for them in particular or whether they were just fungible commodities. Call it childish or manipulative if you will, but a truly manipulative or childish person would have done a lot worse. (Maybe they did and you didn't notice?)
tl;dr Your question comes across like you've never been in love, regardless of how you may have felt inside, and that's the main reason why people get into relationships, so coming across like this is bound to cause problems.
posted by tel3path at 1:02 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it's probably quite a common experience for men.
What I read is that you are looking at it in a vacuum – as a rational proposition. You don't feel jealous with the women you are dating, so therefore you wonder if monogamy is not right for you. Those are all good things to think about and explore your own feels about.
You then mention soulmate, and that you will be jealous again, which does indicate a monogamous orientation. So I would say that it seems like you are pinning your self-realisation of monogamous feelings to feelings of jealousy – that when jealousy arrives, you will know you want to be monogamous.
The reality of monogamy is that there are two people involved, you and someone else. Men function differently when it comes to sex and relationships. Men are more driven by short-term gains and immediate stimulation, than long-term relationships. So it's natural that you're having these doubts about monogamy. However, that is where women come in.
If you desire an open relationship, you will be drastically cutting your available options, for the majority of women (that I've spoken with) do not want open relationships. They want a coupling. Sometimes that can be serial monogamy, or it can be marriage, but in general it does not seem that women are as keen on open relationships.
And mating is a perfectly efficient market. There are plenty of buyers and plenty of sellers. The great thing is, nobody is either a buyer or seller – both people are buyers and sellers.
So it really doesn't matter how much you want to be monogamous, for it will also be determined by the person that you aspire to be with. When you meet a woman, it is an interaction between the parties – a negotiation. Some things are negotiable, some are not. I wonder if you'll find that open relationships are often in the latter category.
In general, I think open relationships appeal more to men than women. If it were up to a lot of men, they would love to have open relationships. That's just the way a lot of men are wired. And the evidence for that is the rate of male infidelity. Infidelity is essentially a unilateral decision to have an open relationship. And then it's often hidden. Why is it hidden? Because the other partner does not support the decision.
Thus, it has little to do with jealousy and more to do with negotiating the kind of relationship that you would like to have. On the jealousy bit, it's probably not a great idea to measure your attraction level by how jealous you feel. That is like measuring the quality of your job by how often you go job searching on LinkedIn at night. In the right relationship, you should be looking for security, which is very different. Jealousy is a negative emotion. Security is a positive emotion. Security can mean a lack of jealousy, but the absence of jealousy does not necessarily mean security, for it can also mean ambivalence.
In fact, in your case, I wonder if there is the fear of dependency and if what women are picking up is not that you lack jealousy, but that you keep the entire relationship at arm's length. A key facet of intimacy is vulnerability – which means that you can be hurt. It is very hard to be intimate without being vulnerable, and hence why trust is such an important aspect of relationships. Perhaps what the women are picking up on is a distance in the relationship, and that would then really indicate a lack of trust. It could be that you do not trust them, or that you do not trust yourself.
Thinking out loud, you may not have a problem with jealousy, but rather intimacy and/or trust. It might help to do some thinking around the other intimate relationships you have had (family, friends) and the trust dynamics that have existed there. Are you inclined to trust people? Or do you generally like to go it alone? Chances are this is not a behaviour that is limited to your interaction with women and dating, but rather an overarching theme that will have indications in other places in your life.
posted by nickrussell at 2:11 AM on April 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
What I read is that you are looking at it in a vacuum – as a rational proposition. You don't feel jealous with the women you are dating, so therefore you wonder if monogamy is not right for you. Those are all good things to think about and explore your own feels about.
You then mention soulmate, and that you will be jealous again, which does indicate a monogamous orientation. So I would say that it seems like you are pinning your self-realisation of monogamous feelings to feelings of jealousy – that when jealousy arrives, you will know you want to be monogamous.
The reality of monogamy is that there are two people involved, you and someone else. Men function differently when it comes to sex and relationships. Men are more driven by short-term gains and immediate stimulation, than long-term relationships. So it's natural that you're having these doubts about monogamy. However, that is where women come in.
If you desire an open relationship, you will be drastically cutting your available options, for the majority of women (that I've spoken with) do not want open relationships. They want a coupling. Sometimes that can be serial monogamy, or it can be marriage, but in general it does not seem that women are as keen on open relationships.
And mating is a perfectly efficient market. There are plenty of buyers and plenty of sellers. The great thing is, nobody is either a buyer or seller – both people are buyers and sellers.
So it really doesn't matter how much you want to be monogamous, for it will also be determined by the person that you aspire to be with. When you meet a woman, it is an interaction between the parties – a negotiation. Some things are negotiable, some are not. I wonder if you'll find that open relationships are often in the latter category.
In general, I think open relationships appeal more to men than women. If it were up to a lot of men, they would love to have open relationships. That's just the way a lot of men are wired. And the evidence for that is the rate of male infidelity. Infidelity is essentially a unilateral decision to have an open relationship. And then it's often hidden. Why is it hidden? Because the other partner does not support the decision.
Thus, it has little to do with jealousy and more to do with negotiating the kind of relationship that you would like to have. On the jealousy bit, it's probably not a great idea to measure your attraction level by how jealous you feel. That is like measuring the quality of your job by how often you go job searching on LinkedIn at night. In the right relationship, you should be looking for security, which is very different. Jealousy is a negative emotion. Security is a positive emotion. Security can mean a lack of jealousy, but the absence of jealousy does not necessarily mean security, for it can also mean ambivalence.
In fact, in your case, I wonder if there is the fear of dependency and if what women are picking up is not that you lack jealousy, but that you keep the entire relationship at arm's length. A key facet of intimacy is vulnerability – which means that you can be hurt. It is very hard to be intimate without being vulnerable, and hence why trust is such an important aspect of relationships. Perhaps what the women are picking up on is a distance in the relationship, and that would then really indicate a lack of trust. It could be that you do not trust them, or that you do not trust yourself.
Thinking out loud, you may not have a problem with jealousy, but rather intimacy and/or trust. It might help to do some thinking around the other intimate relationships you have had (family, friends) and the trust dynamics that have existed there. Are you inclined to trust people? Or do you generally like to go it alone? Chances are this is not a behaviour that is limited to your interaction with women and dating, but rather an overarching theme that will have indications in other places in your life.
posted by nickrussell at 2:11 AM on April 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Among other things, partners will invariably give me little "tests" like "my ex is in town," "this guy at my office is so hot," etc. - and get very frustrated when I don't rise to the bait and make at least a playful show of concern.
I don't think they're being deliberately manipulative. I think it's just one of the little games that many of us play, often only semi-consciously, to solicit affection and affirmation.
Humans are insecure because the world is insecure. I'd play along with the little games. Its how we operate, in the main.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:50 AM on April 18, 2013
I don't think they're being deliberately manipulative. I think it's just one of the little games that many of us play, often only semi-consciously, to solicit affection and affirmation.
Humans are insecure because the world is insecure. I'd play along with the little games. Its how we operate, in the main.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:50 AM on April 18, 2013
I think you just need to communicate better and be more considerate of the emotional needs of your women.
I'm someone who used to be super insecure and insanely jealous. At age 19, I married a man who was the possessive, faithful type, at least sexually. But he kind of sucked at meeting my emotional needs. I used to dream we were just shacked up, he was married to his job and his many hobbies were his "girlfriends." I felt insanely jealous of all these other things to which he gave his time and attention when I couldn't get any time or attention. During my divorce, I knew men who treated me better than that. Much to my surprise, I find that when my needs are well met, I am not particularly jealous or insecure. So I will suggest that your lack of jealousy is not that big of a problem. A much bigger problem is that you are communicating it in a way that sounds dismissive, belittling, hurtful and inconsiderate of your lady/ladies. Those things are a problem in any relationship.
During my divorce I had a string of mostly online relationships. One man had a history of open marriages and swinging. He kept trying to introduce me to other guys. No matter how I handled it, he behaved really badly about it. At some point he told me he was being such a jerk because he felt jealous over me, he had never felt that way before and didn't know how to cope with it. I thought of him when I read your question and thought that, yes, one possibility is you just haven't met anyone who really does it for you.
Another man I knew during that time was truly not the jealous type. He consistently told me he did not love me and would never remarry. He also consistently told me I mattered to him, that I was what he had always wanted in a woman and could not find, and he hoped we would always be close. He made himself available to me. He made sure my sexual and emotional needs were met. He made me feel good about my body in ways I had never felt before. When I told him I loved him and wanted to marry him and have a baby with him, he said that sounded sweet. He said it was good for his ego for me to say nice things like that. He never made me feel bad about saying that I loved him. He did not make it a point of contention or act like I was trying to manipulate him. He did not feel obligated to remind me that he did not feel the same.
I found him baffling for a very long time, and he was patient with me and just answered the same questions over and over until it sunk in and I stopped asking. I came to a point where I also hoped we would always be close, in some manner, even if it did not lead to marriage. He helped me become a lot less insecure and jealous. He raised the bar on what I expected in a relationship. He will be a very hard act to follow.
The fact that I am contentedly alone is in large part because of that fact. I spent many years in an unhappy marriage, afraid that if I left I would promptly get involved in a worse relationship because I don't like being alone and did not think I could ever stand to be alone for long. I view my current ability to be alone as a tribute to how well this man treated me and a parting gift which makes his loss more bearable for feeling like he is still protecting me and taking care of me just by being such a hard act to follow. In some sense, I feel loved by him because of it and I no longer care that he never once told me he loved me.
So I think when women "test" you by mentioning that an old boyfriend is in town you need to view that as an opportunity to prove that you really are not the jealous type but you also need to be aware that for most people "jealousy" is a package deal, bound up with other things. You will need to carefully separate out those other things and do a lot of communicating. You are saying "I am not jealous" but she is hearing something like "I am not valued. He does not care about me. I am unimportant. I am nothing special. It could be any other woman. It makes no difference to him."
If those other things she is hearing are true, well maybe you should let her go. If they are not, then you need to find a way to make her feel like she matters, feel like she is special, etc. The non-jealous man I was involved with made me feel wonderful and took far better care of my emotional needs than anyone else ever has. Because of that, I gave him a lot more latitude than I gave any other man and I worked at trying to understand him and accept him the way he was.
Your lack of jealousy does not have to be a big problem. But you do need to work on framing it much more carefully and on clearly separating it from other things with which jealousy is typically associated. You need to work on communicating a lot more and on being more considerate of the emotional needs of women you get involved with.
posted by Michele in California at 10:21 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm someone who used to be super insecure and insanely jealous. At age 19, I married a man who was the possessive, faithful type, at least sexually. But he kind of sucked at meeting my emotional needs. I used to dream we were just shacked up, he was married to his job and his many hobbies were his "girlfriends." I felt insanely jealous of all these other things to which he gave his time and attention when I couldn't get any time or attention. During my divorce, I knew men who treated me better than that. Much to my surprise, I find that when my needs are well met, I am not particularly jealous or insecure. So I will suggest that your lack of jealousy is not that big of a problem. A much bigger problem is that you are communicating it in a way that sounds dismissive, belittling, hurtful and inconsiderate of your lady/ladies. Those things are a problem in any relationship.
During my divorce I had a string of mostly online relationships. One man had a history of open marriages and swinging. He kept trying to introduce me to other guys. No matter how I handled it, he behaved really badly about it. At some point he told me he was being such a jerk because he felt jealous over me, he had never felt that way before and didn't know how to cope with it. I thought of him when I read your question and thought that, yes, one possibility is you just haven't met anyone who really does it for you.
Another man I knew during that time was truly not the jealous type. He consistently told me he did not love me and would never remarry. He also consistently told me I mattered to him, that I was what he had always wanted in a woman and could not find, and he hoped we would always be close. He made himself available to me. He made sure my sexual and emotional needs were met. He made me feel good about my body in ways I had never felt before. When I told him I loved him and wanted to marry him and have a baby with him, he said that sounded sweet. He said it was good for his ego for me to say nice things like that. He never made me feel bad about saying that I loved him. He did not make it a point of contention or act like I was trying to manipulate him. He did not feel obligated to remind me that he did not feel the same.
I found him baffling for a very long time, and he was patient with me and just answered the same questions over and over until it sunk in and I stopped asking. I came to a point where I also hoped we would always be close, in some manner, even if it did not lead to marriage. He helped me become a lot less insecure and jealous. He raised the bar on what I expected in a relationship. He will be a very hard act to follow.
The fact that I am contentedly alone is in large part because of that fact. I spent many years in an unhappy marriage, afraid that if I left I would promptly get involved in a worse relationship because I don't like being alone and did not think I could ever stand to be alone for long. I view my current ability to be alone as a tribute to how well this man treated me and a parting gift which makes his loss more bearable for feeling like he is still protecting me and taking care of me just by being such a hard act to follow. In some sense, I feel loved by him because of it and I no longer care that he never once told me he loved me.
So I think when women "test" you by mentioning that an old boyfriend is in town you need to view that as an opportunity to prove that you really are not the jealous type but you also need to be aware that for most people "jealousy" is a package deal, bound up with other things. You will need to carefully separate out those other things and do a lot of communicating. You are saying "I am not jealous" but she is hearing something like "I am not valued. He does not care about me. I am unimportant. I am nothing special. It could be any other woman. It makes no difference to him."
If those other things she is hearing are true, well maybe you should let her go. If they are not, then you need to find a way to make her feel like she matters, feel like she is special, etc. The non-jealous man I was involved with made me feel wonderful and took far better care of my emotional needs than anyone else ever has. Because of that, I gave him a lot more latitude than I gave any other man and I worked at trying to understand him and accept him the way he was.
Your lack of jealousy does not have to be a big problem. But you do need to work on framing it much more carefully and on clearly separating it from other things with which jealousy is typically associated. You need to work on communicating a lot more and on being more considerate of the emotional needs of women you get involved with.
posted by Michele in California at 10:21 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I would also submit (i don't think it's been brought up) that a lot of women have encountered men who claim to be as you claim to be, but actually have a bit of a goose and gander problem. As in, "oh, monogamy is so unenlightened, it's for the insecure! I think we can all rise above that, yadda yadda"...only to then go off the damn hinges when she gets home 10 minutes late from a girls' night.
Heck, I dated a guy who got all shitty at me because I went to a wine tasting with a male friend of mine. That guy was sleeping with FOUR OTHER WOMEN at the time.
So frankly, a lot of us are disinclined to buy it when you spout off about how rationally non-monogamous you are. The little "tests" might be along the lines of, "okay, you keep SAYING you're okay with this, let's see if you actually are, or if I am walking into a minefield of shit."
posted by like_a_friend at 10:41 AM on April 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
Heck, I dated a guy who got all shitty at me because I went to a wine tasting with a male friend of mine. That guy was sleeping with FOUR OTHER WOMEN at the time.
So frankly, a lot of us are disinclined to buy it when you spout off about how rationally non-monogamous you are. The little "tests" might be along the lines of, "okay, you keep SAYING you're okay with this, let's see if you actually are, or if I am walking into a minefield of shit."
posted by like_a_friend at 10:41 AM on April 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
You need to date more secure / independent women. My boyfriend does not get jealous and it allows me to feel "independent" while being in a monogamous relationship.
Many of my guy friends have gf's or ex's that do similar things to what you describe. One of my guy friends just goes along with it and acts fake jealous once in a while - he actually likes dating girls that do this (consciously or not) because he knows how to maintain a happy relationship. Other guys can't stand the game and dump them as soon as they show crazy eyes.
As to the monogamy thing, you've already realized that the way you feel is not in accordance to the majority. The way I see it, either find others who do not want to be monogamous (and then you’re total indifference vs. trade off feeling would be a boon) or just concede to being monogamous, before moving in together, in hopes that the relationship might get to the move-in stage.
posted by puertosurf at 12:06 PM on April 18, 2013
Many of my guy friends have gf's or ex's that do similar things to what you describe. One of my guy friends just goes along with it and acts fake jealous once in a while - he actually likes dating girls that do this (consciously or not) because he knows how to maintain a happy relationship. Other guys can't stand the game and dump them as soon as they show crazy eyes.
As to the monogamy thing, you've already realized that the way you feel is not in accordance to the majority. The way I see it, either find others who do not want to be monogamous (and then you’re total indifference vs. trade off feeling would be a boon) or just concede to being monogamous, before moving in together, in hopes that the relationship might get to the move-in stage.
posted by puertosurf at 12:06 PM on April 18, 2013
When you're living together, it feels easier to be exclusive; anytime before that, it seems easier not to be.
Also, this is a little puzzling to me. Why is it so difficult to be exclusive while not living together? I concede that it's very difficult to be non-exclusive when you share a home. But what is it about non exclusivity that is EASIER when living separately? Or do you mean, "more preferable" and not actually simpler?
Most of the time when I'm dating someone, it means I have painstakingly carved out room for that person in my hectic life. I am likely already making sacrifices to spend enough time with my one partner. Carving out even more time for even more partners is *far* from simple.
Granted, not everyone is so busy, and perhaps you are the sort of person who's better at scheduling than I am. But I'm just curious about where you're coming from here.
posted by like_a_friend at 12:57 PM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, this is a little puzzling to me. Why is it so difficult to be exclusive while not living together? I concede that it's very difficult to be non-exclusive when you share a home. But what is it about non exclusivity that is EASIER when living separately? Or do you mean, "more preferable" and not actually simpler?
Most of the time when I'm dating someone, it means I have painstakingly carved out room for that person in my hectic life. I am likely already making sacrifices to spend enough time with my one partner. Carving out even more time for even more partners is *far* from simple.
Granted, not everyone is so busy, and perhaps you are the sort of person who's better at scheduling than I am. But I'm just curious about where you're coming from here.
posted by like_a_friend at 12:57 PM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can't help wondering if you're drawn to people who are jealous or insecure. I say this because I tend to be drawn to strong women who don't need a partner but, rather, are with me because they enjoy my company. I'm not a jealous guy and I haven't experienced jealousy from a woman I dated, which is especially odd since most of my friends are women, some of whom I've dated. Actually, I take that back. I've only experienced jealousy in a relationship once, and that was when I dated a very insecure woman. I know a guy who is really the jealous type, and he's very insecure too (I dated his ex).
I wouldn't think you're poly. You're probably kind of like me, in that you enjoy dating but you enjoy being in a monogamous relationship too. Either is great.
posted by 2oh1 at 1:52 PM on April 18, 2013
I wouldn't think you're poly. You're probably kind of like me, in that you enjoy dating but you enjoy being in a monogamous relationship too. Either is great.
posted by 2oh1 at 1:52 PM on April 18, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't think they're being deliberately manipulative.
What are "tests" if not ways of plumbing your feelings? That seems manipulative.
posted by phrontist at 5:36 PM on April 17, 2013 [7 favorites]