Nickled and Damned
March 13, 2013 11:58 AM Subscribe
House Buyer/Seller Etiquette: is it legitimate for me to be tweaked that the seller wants to charge me for replacement HVAC filters and things that can only be used in the house but that aren't nailed down?
We are purchasing a house from a retired couple who built the home originally. Negotiations on price and adjustments for issues found in the home inspection were uneventful. After those negotiations ended, we reached out the sellers to see if they were interested in selling some of their furniture to us (large, nice pieces like a piano, grandfather clock, dining room table that would be difficult to fit in the two bedroom apartment they are moving into from the house). We ended up agreeing on some small items but really haggled over price.
In the end, we ended up $145 apart. I had told the seller that we didn't want the items enough to pay what he was asking. Then he comes back and says, pay what I'm asking and I'll throw in the HVAC filters, old bricks, tiles, appliance manuals, blueprints for the house, floor mats in the garage, etc.
My first reaction to this was to be supremely annoyed as I thought this kind of stuff which obviously only works at the house would be left for us without us having to pay for it. Or, have I just been a schmuck all of these years leaving unused filters, appliance manuals and leftover tiles for the new owner without charging them?
We are purchasing a house from a retired couple who built the home originally. Negotiations on price and adjustments for issues found in the home inspection were uneventful. After those negotiations ended, we reached out the sellers to see if they were interested in selling some of their furniture to us (large, nice pieces like a piano, grandfather clock, dining room table that would be difficult to fit in the two bedroom apartment they are moving into from the house). We ended up agreeing on some small items but really haggled over price.
In the end, we ended up $145 apart. I had told the seller that we didn't want the items enough to pay what he was asking. Then he comes back and says, pay what I'm asking and I'll throw in the HVAC filters, old bricks, tiles, appliance manuals, blueprints for the house, floor mats in the garage, etc.
My first reaction to this was to be supremely annoyed as I thought this kind of stuff which obviously only works at the house would be left for us without us having to pay for it. Or, have I just been a schmuck all of these years leaving unused filters, appliance manuals and leftover tiles for the new owner without charging them?
This is just more haggling and if you really think those are of no value, stay with "no thanks." I'd be really surprised if they didn't come back with a better offer after that.
Also, I don't know what those filters are made of, but I think mine cost $2.
posted by advicepig at 12:03 PM on March 13, 2013
Also, I don't know what those filters are made of, but I think mine cost $2.
posted by advicepig at 12:03 PM on March 13, 2013
Best answer: Holding appliance manuals hostage is a dick move, imo, made of pure spite. There is no use in the world he has for them- he's leaving the appliances when he moves! - and he's threatening to take them and the other stuff solely to try to force you to give in. If it were me I'd say "no thanks", and I'd give it 95% odds that all that useless stuff (old bricks? really?) is still sitting in the basement when you move in, anyway.
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 12:07 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by badgermushroomSNAKE at 12:07 PM on March 13, 2013
The guys being a dick. You can find most manuals online in PDF format if that's a concern and everything else is easily replaceable. Let him find a home for a pile of tiles in his small flat and don't worry about it anymore.
posted by wwax at 12:09 PM on March 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by wwax at 12:09 PM on March 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
I've had this happen both ways. I bought a house 15 year ago, and the owner was like the one you are dealing eith. She had made exceptions in the contract about some ceiling fans and lighted wall sconces (things you normally assume to be included). Then she tried to get me buy them after the fact. Um no. I am not paying you $150 bucks for a 5 year old ceiling fan. She actually did take them with her. Which was actually better for me because I thought they were ugly.
The most recent house we bought, the sellers left two ladders, yard tools, hose, and a vacuum cleaner. That was awesome.
posted by kimdog at 12:13 PM on March 13, 2013
The most recent house we bought, the sellers left two ladders, yard tools, hose, and a vacuum cleaner. That was awesome.
posted by kimdog at 12:13 PM on March 13, 2013
My mother, whom I learned my haggling skill from, would respond to moves like this by lowering her bid. "Why should I pay you for your trash? You should pay me so you don't have to haul it out."
She can come across as a jerk, but hey, I tend to think that jerkass behavior from sellers can be dealt with like jerkass behavior. And I don't think I've ever seen her pay for something she didn't want.
posted by klangklangston at 12:15 PM on March 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
She can come across as a jerk, but hey, I tend to think that jerkass behavior from sellers can be dealt with like jerkass behavior. And I don't think I've ever seen her pay for something she didn't want.
posted by klangklangston at 12:15 PM on March 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
You're $145 apart on a house! That is such a small sum compared to a home of reasonable value so as to be utterly unworthy of your time. Are you working through an agent? If so, I'd talk to your agent and see whether the negotiations can be handled agent-to-agent, which might help avoid some of this nonsense. In general, I'd go with whatever outcome will cause you the least amount of effort going forward, because it's just not worth it when you've got all the stress of moving ahead of you.
If you walk, the guy may well trash the blueprints and manuals and such out of spite. If any of those are particularly important (the blueprints can be useful, especially if they are as-built plans and/or actually reflect reality), I'd work with your agent to try to make sure that they stay with the house. The total junk like the bricks will probably still be there when you move in anyway.
posted by zachlipton at 12:16 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you walk, the guy may well trash the blueprints and manuals and such out of spite. If any of those are particularly important (the blueprints can be useful, especially if they are as-built plans and/or actually reflect reality), I'd work with your agent to try to make sure that they stay with the house. The total junk like the bricks will probably still be there when you move in anyway.
posted by zachlipton at 12:16 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
He's the schmuck, not you. That said...
In the end, we ended up $145 apart.
I'm an attorney, and my dad worked as a realtor (after retiring). I cannot tell you how many deals I have watched fall apart, or heard about falling apart, because after negotiating sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, in the final sixty seconds neither party wanted to be the last person to give in. So they both walk away, the seller with a house he doesn't want and the buyer without a house he did. "Nickel and damned," indeed.
Related, I've judged law-student negotiation competitions, and usually all but the very top teams need to be told some version of this: "Keep your eye on the ball. You are in this room because your client wants to make a deal with the company across the table. Your job isn't to 'win,' it's to make that deal happen. No, you can't be a pushover. But if you walk out because the other guy was too stubborn, that isn't you 'winning.' You failed to make the deal happen."
It's not clear to me whether there is still some possibility that you could lose the house, or whether this is purely negotiation over the furniture. But either way, consider that one possible "right" answer is that the guy's a schmuck and you should pay him the $145 regardless.
posted by cribcage at 12:19 PM on March 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
In the end, we ended up $145 apart.
I'm an attorney, and my dad worked as a realtor (after retiring). I cannot tell you how many deals I have watched fall apart, or heard about falling apart, because after negotiating sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, in the final sixty seconds neither party wanted to be the last person to give in. So they both walk away, the seller with a house he doesn't want and the buyer without a house he did. "Nickel and damned," indeed.
Related, I've judged law-student negotiation competitions, and usually all but the very top teams need to be told some version of this: "Keep your eye on the ball. You are in this room because your client wants to make a deal with the company across the table. Your job isn't to 'win,' it's to make that deal happen. No, you can't be a pushover. But if you walk out because the other guy was too stubborn, that isn't you 'winning.' You failed to make the deal happen."
It's not clear to me whether there is still some possibility that you could lose the house, or whether this is purely negotiation over the furniture. But either way, consider that one possible "right" answer is that the guy's a schmuck and you should pay him the $145 regardless.
posted by cribcage at 12:19 PM on March 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
I agree. He's a shmuck, the 145 is a rounding error, get over it and get on with your life. Enjoy the new house!
When I was buying the seller couldn't understand why we didn't want her pile of rusty, jagged swingsets. Sometimes sellers have weird thoughts.
posted by selfnoise at 12:22 PM on March 13, 2013
When I was buying the seller couldn't understand why we didn't want her pile of rusty, jagged swingsets. Sometimes sellers have weird thoughts.
posted by selfnoise at 12:22 PM on March 13, 2013
Response by poster: Just to clarify, the $145 was over the furniture (we offered $600, he wanted $745), not the house itself.
We did agree to the $745 because we wanted the blueprints since we plan to do major renovations on the ugly-ass front of the house that the Schmuck Guy designed himself. He gets his $145, but we get to fix the travesty of architecture that he created and thinks is gorgeous. Seeing his face after it's finished? Probably will be worth the $145.
posted by Leezie at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2013 [11 favorites]
We did agree to the $745 because we wanted the blueprints since we plan to do major renovations on the ugly-ass front of the house that the Schmuck Guy designed himself. He gets his $145, but we get to fix the travesty of architecture that he created and thinks is gorgeous. Seeing his face after it's finished? Probably will be worth the $145.
posted by Leezie at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2013 [11 favorites]
Yup, get over it. It's a trivial sum. The kind of person that does what your seller is doing goes through life knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, and they end up the worse for it.
You can play hardball and probably win because I'm sure they want to sell, but really, life's too short.
posted by MuffinMan at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
You can play hardball and probably win because I'm sure they want to sell, but really, life's too short.
posted by MuffinMan at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
We asked the seller of our home if he'd consider selling us his very large, heavy plants in pots (we were thinking $500 or so). He came back asking for $10k! We laughed and said don't bother, knowing what the outcome would be. The sheer manpower and hassle involved to move and store these trees meant he would never bother doing it, and sure enough, he left it and we got it for nothing. The guy was an idiot, he could have made $500. As is yours.
But be careful. I've heard of very nasty sellers. One woman I know was buying a house. The seller agreed to the price but it was significantly less than she wanted (isn't it always). As her way of getting her own back, when the new owner took ownership, she discovered the previous owner out of sheer vindictiveness had dug up the nicest plants out of the garden and taken them (illegal) and had secretly unplugged all the air conditioners from the water hose and partially dismantled them so when they were turned on, they burnt out and were destroyed.
It is strange how these things always end with haggling over a few dollars.
posted by Jubey at 1:02 PM on March 13, 2013
But be careful. I've heard of very nasty sellers. One woman I know was buying a house. The seller agreed to the price but it was significantly less than she wanted (isn't it always). As her way of getting her own back, when the new owner took ownership, she discovered the previous owner out of sheer vindictiveness had dug up the nicest plants out of the garden and taken them (illegal) and had secretly unplugged all the air conditioners from the water hose and partially dismantled them so when they were turned on, they burnt out and were destroyed.
It is strange how these things always end with haggling over a few dollars.
posted by Jubey at 1:02 PM on March 13, 2013
If this ends up being an issue, I can't believe that someone's agent won't take the $145 out of their commission!
posted by scolbath at 1:13 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by scolbath at 1:13 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Gosh, are you buying that horrible house in the hollar two doors down from me? Because if you are, that thing NEEDS a facelift!
But seriously, the guy is being an ass, but $145 isn't the end of the world if you really want the stuff.
Many happy years in your new home!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2013
But seriously, the guy is being an ass, but $145 isn't the end of the world if you really want the stuff.
Many happy years in your new home!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2013
When my parents bought their first house, they had to go to a lawyer to get the sellers to give back all the interior doors. The guy's being petty, but pettiness can cause you huge issues.
posted by jeather at 1:48 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by jeather at 1:48 PM on March 13, 2013
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posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:01 PM on March 13, 2013 [5 favorites]