Beyond Borders
February 16, 2012 5:59 AM Subscribe
Has anyone ever been in a relationship with someone from another culture? How do you get over some of the fundamental differences in world views?
I'm currently living in the Middle East and have been in relationship with a "local" here for the past year and a half. While we love each other dearly, there are some very obvious differences in the way we see the world. We've been very good at communicating our thoughts and feelings, thoughwe still run into several walls along the way that significantly degrade the quality of the relationship.
Me = Seattle-raised, pro-choice, gay-loving liberal feminist who loves organic food and campfires.
Him = Proud Arab raised in a small village in the southern Jordan. Intelligent, ambitious and extremely political (which makes for some very high-quality, yet non-threatening debates).
Most importantly, while his attitude towards women is quite progressive for his culture, he has had a VERY hard time getting over the fact that I've been with other men. That and he's very suspicious of me having male friends.
So my question is, how did you get over these and other similar differences? Does it all come down to cultural sensitivity (a "when in Rome" approach since I am living in his country). Any tips and suggestions?
I'm currently living in the Middle East and have been in relationship with a "local" here for the past year and a half. While we love each other dearly, there are some very obvious differences in the way we see the world. We've been very good at communicating our thoughts and feelings, thoughwe still run into several walls along the way that significantly degrade the quality of the relationship.
Me = Seattle-raised, pro-choice, gay-loving liberal feminist who loves organic food and campfires.
Him = Proud Arab raised in a small village in the southern Jordan. Intelligent, ambitious and extremely political (which makes for some very high-quality, yet non-threatening debates).
Most importantly, while his attitude towards women is quite progressive for his culture, he has had a VERY hard time getting over the fact that I've been with other men. That and he's very suspicious of me having male friends.
So my question is, how did you get over these and other similar differences? Does it all come down to cultural sensitivity (a "when in Rome" approach since I am living in his country). Any tips and suggestions?
I've lived in a foreign country for so long that it's become my home (and I have dual citizenship to boot).
First: you can find these same cultural differences in your own culture.
Second: ask yourself, genuinely, if you would be/stay with someone like this if they were from your home country.
If you find yourself going "but" to those, then ask yourself what's really important to you. Are you willing to compromise what you believe? How would that make you feel?
FWIW, after so many years here, I no longer think of myself in terms of place-of-origin's culture (and I too am from the Pac NW), but in terms of my values and priorities.
posted by fraula at 6:20 AM on February 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
First: you can find these same cultural differences in your own culture.
Second: ask yourself, genuinely, if you would be/stay with someone like this if they were from your home country.
If you find yourself going "but" to those, then ask yourself what's really important to you. Are you willing to compromise what you believe? How would that make you feel?
FWIW, after so many years here, I no longer think of myself in terms of place-of-origin's culture (and I too am from the Pac NW), but in terms of my values and priorities.
posted by fraula at 6:20 AM on February 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
You could try the direct method: "yes, I have been with other men, this is normal for women in America, but that does not mean that I am not capable of being fully committed to our relationship."
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:22 AM on February 16, 2012
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:22 AM on February 16, 2012
Some people say cultural differences are neither "good" nor "bad" but they just are.
I have had many intercultural relationships, and from my experiences, cultural differences may not be "good" or "bad" but they can be destructiveness, insensitive, immature, close minded, etc.
I'm sure he's not doing that but it does seem close minded to be suspicious of having male friends, and the fact that he has a hard time getting over the fact that you've been with other men is close minded and insensitive.
Personally I set a boundary and say that to me these things are important, that I will have male friends, and I've had sex with other man, and I can't change that, and if he can't accept that, then we have no romantic future together.
posted by crawltopslow at 6:22 AM on February 16, 2012
I have had many intercultural relationships, and from my experiences, cultural differences may not be "good" or "bad" but they can be destructiveness, insensitive, immature, close minded, etc.
I'm sure he's not doing that but it does seem close minded to be suspicious of having male friends, and the fact that he has a hard time getting over the fact that you've been with other men is close minded and insensitive.
Personally I set a boundary and say that to me these things are important, that I will have male friends, and I've had sex with other man, and I can't change that, and if he can't accept that, then we have no romantic future together.
posted by crawltopslow at 6:22 AM on February 16, 2012
Even if he's willing to accept that his mental model of how to relate to women is problematic, he probably doesn't have an alternative model to replace it with. (When all you've got is a hammer...) Could you put him in touch with an American or other western man man with whom he might discuss this?
posted by jon1270 at 6:27 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jon1270 at 6:27 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Most importantly, while his attitude towards women is quite progressive for his culture, he has had a VERY hard time getting over the fact that I've been with other men. That and he's very suspicious of me having male friends.
Culture is not an excuse for controlling behavior. I agree with the "direct method" above of saying, "Listen, this is normal, this is my values, you have to meet me here for me to be fully me in this relationship." If that does not work, or the "suspicion/control" continue, I think it moves beyond cultural difference and into control masked by cultural values that "differ from your own." Perhaps these cultural values are acceptable to other potential partners for your sweetie, but they do not have to be for you.
posted by anya32 at 6:27 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Culture is not an excuse for controlling behavior. I agree with the "direct method" above of saying, "Listen, this is normal, this is my values, you have to meet me here for me to be fully me in this relationship." If that does not work, or the "suspicion/control" continue, I think it moves beyond cultural difference and into control masked by cultural values that "differ from your own." Perhaps these cultural values are acceptable to other potential partners for your sweetie, but they do not have to be for you.
posted by anya32 at 6:27 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
He can have a "very hard time" for a little while. It's great that you have this kind of patience. But after a while- it's on him to get. the. fuck. over. it.
if he was just some farm boy from Mississippi you could see the same attitude, but you would put your foot down after a time. It isn't ok for him to make this your problem, no matter what cultural background he comes from.
it's time to tell him that he can ask for reassurances, but he can't act like this is your problem. If he can't move on, he can't be your partner.
posted by Blisterlips at 6:32 AM on February 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
if he was just some farm boy from Mississippi you could see the same attitude, but you would put your foot down after a time. It isn't ok for him to make this your problem, no matter what cultural background he comes from.
it's time to tell him that he can ask for reassurances, but he can't act like this is your problem. If he can't move on, he can't be your partner.
posted by Blisterlips at 6:32 AM on February 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I have lived (and am still living) independently in many different cultures and countries, without the comfort of an expat culture, and have been mostly 90% integrated. Dating someone from a different culture will always be slightly more challenging. You are in possession of a foreign "language" that the other person doesn't have. You will attach different importance to different things, and matters will have different emotional significance. You will present yourself differently in different situations.
Of course, everyone will have their own "language," even if they were brought up in the same culture as you, and even if they grew up in the same hometown as you. That is because everyone will have different family customs, different love languages, diffferent economic situations. But if you're from a different culture, there are twice -- thrice, more -- as many foreign terms that you will have to learn.
Are you willing to learn? Is he willing to learn?
posted by moiraine at 6:34 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Of course, everyone will have their own "language," even if they were brought up in the same culture as you, and even if they grew up in the same hometown as you. That is because everyone will have different family customs, different love languages, diffferent economic situations. But if you're from a different culture, there are twice -- thrice, more -- as many foreign terms that you will have to learn.
Are you willing to learn? Is he willing to learn?
posted by moiraine at 6:34 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Either the way he treats you bothers you, or it doesn't. Either he's willing to treat you as you need to be treated, or he's not. You are in a relationship with him, not making a value judgment about a culture as a whole. And you are certainly not his guest - the "when in Rome" philosophy does not work here at all.
In this context, it makes no difference whatsoever whether his behavior is a result of his Middle Eastern upbringing or how he would have been raised where you're from. To pretend that his objectionable behavior either isn't real, or doesn't really matter, is to Otherize him and to treat him as something other than an adult.
So, work from there. He's not a guy from the Middle East who is bound to his Old World ways. He's an adult with whom you are in a loving relationship, but there are also problems.
Paradoxically enough, if not hypocritically enough, I'd be tempted to play the "exotic" card myself - "in America, it's normal for women to have more experience, and in America, there is friendship between the sexes. That's why it's all the more special that I choose you... and after all, aren't I also more interesting than most people?" Get him to associate the parts he doesn't like with something other than you (America), but also own them as things about you that are cool and interesting, while also affirming that you will not break the trust of the things that are most deeply important to him, which would apparently be your commitment to him.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:35 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
In this context, it makes no difference whatsoever whether his behavior is a result of his Middle Eastern upbringing or how he would have been raised where you're from. To pretend that his objectionable behavior either isn't real, or doesn't really matter, is to Otherize him and to treat him as something other than an adult.
So, work from there. He's not a guy from the Middle East who is bound to his Old World ways. He's an adult with whom you are in a loving relationship, but there are also problems.
Paradoxically enough, if not hypocritically enough, I'd be tempted to play the "exotic" card myself - "in America, it's normal for women to have more experience, and in America, there is friendship between the sexes. That's why it's all the more special that I choose you... and after all, aren't I also more interesting than most people?" Get him to associate the parts he doesn't like with something other than you (America), but also own them as things about you that are cool and interesting, while also affirming that you will not break the trust of the things that are most deeply important to him, which would apparently be your commitment to him.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:35 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
With the exception of sub-saharan Africa, I have lived in the most modern of world cities, and extremely remote regions - cross-cultural relations test everything we believe about idealism and people - and they can cost you dearly (time, heartache, money, and safety).
If he was a guy from New York, you would run the other way, fast.
Intolerance can be seductive to a western, Seattle mindset. As well as a slight threat of the unknown. As a man, I've come very close to "being chased out of a village" by taking a local girl out. I would not encourage a female to do the same - you just don't know how the others around him will react.
I've known many American and British women that "experimented" by dating local men, and ulitmately decided it was bridge too wide to cross (there were some exceptions). What was their reason?Communication in a relationship within the same culture is hard enough - never mind a whole new world on top of it.
posted by Kruger5 at 6:36 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
If he was a guy from New York, you would run the other way, fast.
Intolerance can be seductive to a western, Seattle mindset. As well as a slight threat of the unknown. As a man, I've come very close to "being chased out of a village" by taking a local girl out. I would not encourage a female to do the same - you just don't know how the others around him will react.
I've known many American and British women that "experimented" by dating local men, and ulitmately decided it was bridge too wide to cross (there were some exceptions). What was their reason?Communication in a relationship within the same culture is hard enough - never mind a whole new world on top of it.
posted by Kruger5 at 6:36 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Most importantly, while his attitude towards women is quite progressive for his culture, he has had a VERY hard time getting over the fact that I've been with other men. That and he's very suspicious of me having male friends.
Second, this is clearly important to him. This is one of his cultural values. You need to explain what this means to you, what emotional significance this has to you, what you dating or being friends with other men imply (or don't imply, in your case). You have to be willing to be patient and kind to help him understand.
Likewise, he has to be patient and kind to you, to give you the benefit of the doubt, to learn that there are other perspectives out there, to learn that dating other men doesn't mean you're "loose" or cannot fall in love or whatever.
I think some of the opinions on this thread are incredibly naive and sheltered - not everyone has been brought up the same way and not everyone thinks the similarly. Being "progressive" is just means that you have certain values and customs that are labelled as "progressive" in a mostly-white "Western" society in the year 2012. For example, being "progressive" in 1920s USA meant that a black person could sit anyone they wanted on the bus.
Of course, he could "get. the. fuck. over. it." without your help. You might as well not be in a relationship because you wouldn't have even tried. You might as well live alone your entire life not reaching out to anyone because they will have different experiences and emotions from you, and you can't understand them and they can't understand you.
posted by moiraine at 6:45 AM on February 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
Second, this is clearly important to him. This is one of his cultural values. You need to explain what this means to you, what emotional significance this has to you, what you dating or being friends with other men imply (or don't imply, in your case). You have to be willing to be patient and kind to help him understand.
Likewise, he has to be patient and kind to you, to give you the benefit of the doubt, to learn that there are other perspectives out there, to learn that dating other men doesn't mean you're "loose" or cannot fall in love or whatever.
I think some of the opinions on this thread are incredibly naive and sheltered - not everyone has been brought up the same way and not everyone thinks the similarly. Being "progressive" is just means that you have certain values and customs that are labelled as "progressive" in a mostly-white "Western" society in the year 2012. For example, being "progressive" in 1920s USA meant that a black person could sit anyone they wanted on the bus.
Of course, he could "get. the. fuck. over. it." without your help. You might as well not be in a relationship because you wouldn't have even tried. You might as well live alone your entire life not reaching out to anyone because they will have different experiences and emotions from you, and you can't understand them and they can't understand you.
posted by moiraine at 6:45 AM on February 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
Cultural context may be helpful in understanding where the guy is coming from, and perhaps not judging him as harshly as you might otherwise, but is ultimately useless in deciding whether this is a relationship worth staying in. You're allowed to pick any reason to end a relationship; you're not required to justify your decision in front of any committee.
As an Indian woman, I can also say that the majority of Indian men would likely have a problem with premarital sex or women having been with other men before then -- but some wouldn't. Those are the only ones I am willing to date. I have also been in cross-cultural relationships, my last one with an American guy (who I still have the utmost respect for) and now with a Russian man. In both cases, our values were remarkably similar -- that's what allowed us to bridge other more superficial gaps in culture and come together.
posted by peacheater at 6:47 AM on February 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
As an Indian woman, I can also say that the majority of Indian men would likely have a problem with premarital sex or women having been with other men before then -- but some wouldn't. Those are the only ones I am willing to date. I have also been in cross-cultural relationships, my last one with an American guy (who I still have the utmost respect for) and now with a Russian man. In both cases, our values were remarkably similar -- that's what allowed us to bridge other more superficial gaps in culture and come together.
posted by peacheater at 6:47 AM on February 16, 2012 [4 favorites]
In college I was in a long-term relationship with a man from Jordan. He also had difficulty with the fact that I had slept with other men prior to meeting him. That then evolved into difficulties with the way I dressed, problems with my male friends, particularly if I hugged them or kissed them on the cheek.
In the end, all of these "cultural differences" amounted to me feeling like he was a misogynistic asshat who blamed his outdated views on women and relationships on culture. This was a huge chasm that I wasn't willing to overlook.
posted by Sal and Richard at 6:49 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
In the end, all of these "cultural differences" amounted to me feeling like he was a misogynistic asshat who blamed his outdated views on women and relationships on culture. This was a huge chasm that I wasn't willing to overlook.
posted by Sal and Richard at 6:49 AM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yep, I've dated someone from an entirely different and much more conservative culture. It was a very serious relationship; he insisted that his parents welcome me into their home (where he lived with them); that they accept the idea that he wanted to marry me. And you know what? They did. They welcomed me graciously and never for one second did I get the feeling they would have preferred he end up with someone of their ethnicity and religion - this, despite the fact that to be an American woman in that part of the world is often understood to mean, "to be a whore."
Ultimately the reason it didn't work out had nothing to do with cultural differences and way more to do with geographical distance: I really wanted to go back to grad school and an LDR of 8,000 miles was too much to hack.
Now I've built up to my point, I'll say this: we had differences, sure, but none that tripped my "I cannot tolerate this" button; and none that would have been dealbreakers had he been American. His culture is conservative and often misogynistic but he wasn't, and when I met his family I saw why: they weren't conservative or misogynistic either. That's why it could have worked between us, and very nearly did.
Really think hard about what would be a dealbreaker for you in a person from your own hometown -- and don't lower the bar for anyone else in the mistaken (and in my opinion, silly) belief that certain dealbreakers are okay so long as they appear in some other cultural context. Conversely: compatibility in terms of ideals, beliefs, ethics, and morals is NOT something limited to shared cultural backgrounds.
posted by artemisia at 7:01 AM on February 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
Ultimately the reason it didn't work out had nothing to do with cultural differences and way more to do with geographical distance: I really wanted to go back to grad school and an LDR of 8,000 miles was too much to hack.
Now I've built up to my point, I'll say this: we had differences, sure, but none that tripped my "I cannot tolerate this" button; and none that would have been dealbreakers had he been American. His culture is conservative and often misogynistic but he wasn't, and when I met his family I saw why: they weren't conservative or misogynistic either. That's why it could have worked between us, and very nearly did.
Really think hard about what would be a dealbreaker for you in a person from your own hometown -- and don't lower the bar for anyone else in the mistaken (and in my opinion, silly) belief that certain dealbreakers are okay so long as they appear in some other cultural context. Conversely: compatibility in terms of ideals, beliefs, ethics, and morals is NOT something limited to shared cultural backgrounds.
posted by artemisia at 7:01 AM on February 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
I'm married to an Arab man and I understand that your question isn't so much about the prior men in your life, but rather how to come to an understanding about ANY issue that has the potential to cause strife.
For my hubby and me, the commitment to have our relationship succeed is ultimately what makes it a success. Because we are commited we simply have to have some acceptance for how the other person thinks and what they believe. One example is the circumcision of our son - I explained (in detail) how against the whole thing I was (gental mutilation NO!!!). He just wouldn't be moved, for him it is a cultural and religious necessity. I conceded the issue and the boy was cut. For our girl, he insisted that her ears be pierced because it was 'cultural' to identify her as female right from the start. I strongly disagreed with punching a hole through her perfect little ears. On the scale, my no weighed more than his no in this instance and HE conceded.
It's a give and take in ANY relationship, but in a cross cultural relationship I think you have to be just a bit more flexible. In terms of Arab men, from my experience it's best to find one who is a bit westernized. It's really hard, as a progressive woman, to accept some of the misogynistic tendencies these men have. I have many, many western friends who are married to Arab men and the most successful couples are the ones where the man was educated in the west. Not to say it can't work, just that it's harder.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:18 AM on February 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
For my hubby and me, the commitment to have our relationship succeed is ultimately what makes it a success. Because we are commited we simply have to have some acceptance for how the other person thinks and what they believe. One example is the circumcision of our son - I explained (in detail) how against the whole thing I was (gental mutilation NO!!!). He just wouldn't be moved, for him it is a cultural and religious necessity. I conceded the issue and the boy was cut. For our girl, he insisted that her ears be pierced because it was 'cultural' to identify her as female right from the start. I strongly disagreed with punching a hole through her perfect little ears. On the scale, my no weighed more than his no in this instance and HE conceded.
It's a give and take in ANY relationship, but in a cross cultural relationship I think you have to be just a bit more flexible. In terms of Arab men, from my experience it's best to find one who is a bit westernized. It's really hard, as a progressive woman, to accept some of the misogynistic tendencies these men have. I have many, many western friends who are married to Arab men and the most successful couples are the ones where the man was educated in the west. Not to say it can't work, just that it's harder.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:18 AM on February 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
I think your problem will be that there is often no good ending for your sort of relationship. It is acceptable for young men in many cultures to experiment a bit and go wild, but they are expected to later conform to their cultural norms.
posted by meepmeow at 7:20 AM on February 16, 2012
posted by meepmeow at 7:20 AM on February 16, 2012
In this case, you dont. He is from a country and a religion that has set norms and values and yours does not coincide with him. Whether many admit it or not, our set of morality comes from the religion we or our parents grew up in unless we break away from them/it completely. You are living in a country that is that is extremely harsh towards women and he is a product of that country and surrounded by, from day 1, these influences. You cannot change him.
posted by pakora1 at 8:00 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by pakora1 at 8:00 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think take the "different culture" aspect out of it and just take him as an individual. These attitudes that you are attributing to cultural differences can be exhibited in anyone, regardless of where they are from, and either you're okay with them or your not.
Play make-believe and pretend that you're dating a man from Seattle. He's great, he's lovely, you have great debates and you love him. However, he is extremely troubled by your having been with people before him and he really doesn't like that you have male friends. Would you accept these attitudes and behaviours from pretend-Seattle guy? I'm guessing not, since you're asking this question.
FWIW I think it is a very slippery slope when a partner starts having trouble with who you're friends with. I'd entertain the discussion if they took issue with my being friends with an ex that I was really chummy with, or with someone who engaged in illegal activity, etc. But to dislike your having any sort of relationship with all men... that isn't reasonable. Not being okay with you having male friends, to me, feels like phase one. I'd be worried it would then turn in to "I don't like how much time you're spending with your female friends." which turns in to "I don't like that you dress so revealingly", and so on and so forth. It can be a slow process but these things can grow.
posted by gwenlister at 8:10 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Play make-believe and pretend that you're dating a man from Seattle. He's great, he's lovely, you have great debates and you love him. However, he is extremely troubled by your having been with people before him and he really doesn't like that you have male friends. Would you accept these attitudes and behaviours from pretend-Seattle guy? I'm guessing not, since you're asking this question.
FWIW I think it is a very slippery slope when a partner starts having trouble with who you're friends with. I'd entertain the discussion if they took issue with my being friends with an ex that I was really chummy with, or with someone who engaged in illegal activity, etc. But to dislike your having any sort of relationship with all men... that isn't reasonable. Not being okay with you having male friends, to me, feels like phase one. I'd be worried it would then turn in to "I don't like how much time you're spending with your female friends." which turns in to "I don't like that you dress so revealingly", and so on and so forth. It can be a slow process but these things can grow.
posted by gwenlister at 8:10 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm a Pakistani woman, so closer to your boyfriend's culture than my own. I've seen plenty of Pakistani men sow their oats with American or British women, and then come back to settle with Pakistani brides chosen by their parents. I've also seen plenty of relationships that worked.
Listen to PorcineWithMe and moiraine. Of course these relationships can work - I'm married to a British man myself, though granted that's an easier configuration. This is not an EM Forster divide. Inter-cultural relationships require both partners to learn to speak different languages and to give and take. Does he recognise there is a disjunct between what you consider honour and respect for women, and what he does? Is he willing to work on it with you? Cultural sensitivity works both ways.
At the same time, I'm assuming from what you've written, he's not really lived in western countries, or if he has, perhaps it was not in a western environment (I'm thinking college students who hang out largely with their own countryfolk and are immersed in an expatriate culture). So for him, your culture and values are largely theoretical. If you're serious about him, you should perhaps allow him to see you in your natural environment. When he's the one out of place, he may well become defensive and prickly (I did, the first time I lived in the US), and then either work through that, or not. If he doesn't, well, you must both define for yourself where your boundaries lie.
posted by tavegyl at 8:17 AM on February 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
Listen to PorcineWithMe and moiraine. Of course these relationships can work - I'm married to a British man myself, though granted that's an easier configuration. This is not an EM Forster divide. Inter-cultural relationships require both partners to learn to speak different languages and to give and take. Does he recognise there is a disjunct between what you consider honour and respect for women, and what he does? Is he willing to work on it with you? Cultural sensitivity works both ways.
At the same time, I'm assuming from what you've written, he's not really lived in western countries, or if he has, perhaps it was not in a western environment (I'm thinking college students who hang out largely with their own countryfolk and are immersed in an expatriate culture). So for him, your culture and values are largely theoretical. If you're serious about him, you should perhaps allow him to see you in your natural environment. When he's the one out of place, he may well become defensive and prickly (I did, the first time I lived in the US), and then either work through that, or not. If he doesn't, well, you must both define for yourself where your boundaries lie.
posted by tavegyl at 8:17 AM on February 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
I'm also in a multicultural marriage, living in my spouse's homeland, and have already favorited some answers above that resonate with my experience.
I want to address the answers that say "if you wouldn't accept it from a person in your own country, then DTMFA". First, this person is not in New York, or Seattle, not in her hometown; she is living willingly in a country abroad, which means that to some degree she is willing to make compromises to her own lifestyle and consider the world from another point of view. This is what it takes to succeed in a multicultural marriage, and it's hard to understand for people haven't been there and are used to measuring everything by their own infallible cultural yardstick. Second, she is not asking "Do I DTMFA?", so answers to that question are not very helpful.
Here are some tips that directly address the question and I hope are helpful:
1. Communication is key. Talk constructively as much as possible. Use different ways of communicating and negotiation, learn to be a patient listener. Repeat things back to him to make sure you understand him. Let him know how you feel in ways that he can accept, and make it comfortable and easy for him to talk to you about how he feels.
2. Focus on the important things that contribute to your relationship. My wife and I noticed that we always started arguing when history/politics came up so we eventually decided to stop talking about those things. This let us stay in a good mood and move forward in other more meaningful areas. (We still don't talk politics, 6 years in, thought it might be different now.)
3. Be willing to make concessions, losing battles to win the war so to speak. Model the process of trying new things, and give him lots of feedback on how it's going and how you are changing yourself or your environment to deal.
4. Be clear with him about the kind of relationship you want. He's in his home culture, and it's very easy for him to succumb to "buyer's remorse" and fall back into the traditional expectations about what a boy/girl relationship should be. Do some DTRing and make sure that he's on the same page as you in that respect. Just because two people come from different cultures doesn't mean both of them expect a multicultural relationship/marriage, especially on the male side.
It's funny that reading back through these tips, almost all of them are analogous to things that I do in the classroom as a teacher. In my class, the students learn from me and I learn from the students. In the end, we all change and become better people.
So my question back to the asker is, is he willing to change, to make compromises and see things from your perspective? Is he willing to take your side when his family/friends/society doesn't get it? Clearly you are, but this venture will require both sides of the relationship to make such a commitment. I am very fortunate to have a wife that is such a one-in-a-million person. She has the upper-hand in the sense that her family, friends and the society around her all agree that the local culture is in the right and that I am silly, naive, or plain wrong; but she is strong enough as a person to treat me as an equal and respect my opinion and way of doing things. We may not always do things my way (thank goodness), but I know that she respects me and is also willing to listen and learn from me.
I hope you've found that person too.
posted by msittig at 8:28 AM on February 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
I want to address the answers that say "if you wouldn't accept it from a person in your own country, then DTMFA". First, this person is not in New York, or Seattle, not in her hometown; she is living willingly in a country abroad, which means that to some degree she is willing to make compromises to her own lifestyle and consider the world from another point of view. This is what it takes to succeed in a multicultural marriage, and it's hard to understand for people haven't been there and are used to measuring everything by their own infallible cultural yardstick. Second, she is not asking "Do I DTMFA?", so answers to that question are not very helpful.
Here are some tips that directly address the question and I hope are helpful:
1. Communication is key. Talk constructively as much as possible. Use different ways of communicating and negotiation, learn to be a patient listener. Repeat things back to him to make sure you understand him. Let him know how you feel in ways that he can accept, and make it comfortable and easy for him to talk to you about how he feels.
2. Focus on the important things that contribute to your relationship. My wife and I noticed that we always started arguing when history/politics came up so we eventually decided to stop talking about those things. This let us stay in a good mood and move forward in other more meaningful areas. (We still don't talk politics, 6 years in, thought it might be different now.)
3. Be willing to make concessions, losing battles to win the war so to speak. Model the process of trying new things, and give him lots of feedback on how it's going and how you are changing yourself or your environment to deal.
4. Be clear with him about the kind of relationship you want. He's in his home culture, and it's very easy for him to succumb to "buyer's remorse" and fall back into the traditional expectations about what a boy/girl relationship should be. Do some DTRing and make sure that he's on the same page as you in that respect. Just because two people come from different cultures doesn't mean both of them expect a multicultural relationship/marriage, especially on the male side.
It's funny that reading back through these tips, almost all of them are analogous to things that I do in the classroom as a teacher. In my class, the students learn from me and I learn from the students. In the end, we all change and become better people.
So my question back to the asker is, is he willing to change, to make compromises and see things from your perspective? Is he willing to take your side when his family/friends/society doesn't get it? Clearly you are, but this venture will require both sides of the relationship to make such a commitment. I am very fortunate to have a wife that is such a one-in-a-million person. She has the upper-hand in the sense that her family, friends and the society around her all agree that the local culture is in the right and that I am silly, naive, or plain wrong; but she is strong enough as a person to treat me as an equal and respect my opinion and way of doing things. We may not always do things my way (thank goodness), but I know that she respects me and is also willing to listen and learn from me.
I hope you've found that person too.
posted by msittig at 8:28 AM on February 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
Hi. This is my suggestion: Point out the positives- point out to him that many women where he was from would understand that he wouldn't want to be with someone who had other men before and would simply lie to him and say that they hadn't. (many does not equal all or most, please don't get mad at me anyone from this part of the world, not trying to say they are all liars or anything crazy like that). you are honest about this as you are honest about all things important and you will not lie to him including about your ability to be faithful to him. this honesty should be worth a lot to him.
insist that he accept that you have male friends (part of the honest-trust thing that you're emphasizing) and that you will simply not give up your friends for him not because you don't care about him but because it's one of your values. don't show any room to compromise on this particular issue, and if he wants to be with you he'll accept. same thing with being able to wear the clothes you want. When my guy wasn't impressed with a pair of short I wanted to buy, since they were on the revealing side, and initially was trying to 'forbid them', he ended up buying them for me as a display of acceptance :)
good luck! let us know how it goes.
posted by saraindc at 8:50 AM on February 16, 2012
insist that he accept that you have male friends (part of the honest-trust thing that you're emphasizing) and that you will simply not give up your friends for him not because you don't care about him but because it's one of your values. don't show any room to compromise on this particular issue, and if he wants to be with you he'll accept. same thing with being able to wear the clothes you want. When my guy wasn't impressed with a pair of short I wanted to buy, since they were on the revealing side, and initially was trying to 'forbid them', he ended up buying them for me as a display of acceptance :)
good luck! let us know how it goes.
posted by saraindc at 8:50 AM on February 16, 2012
fraula:
First: you can find these same cultural differences in your own culture.
Definitely. My fiance and I are from about an hour away from each other but we do have some differences that stem from our respective micro-cultures.
posted by radioamy at 9:04 AM on February 16, 2012
First: you can find these same cultural differences in your own culture.
Definitely. My fiance and I are from about an hour away from each other but we do have some differences that stem from our respective micro-cultures.
posted by radioamy at 9:04 AM on February 16, 2012
Something has got to give. In Japan, the foreign-male/Japanese-female combination is pretty common, but the foreign-female/Japanese-male combination is pretty rare. In my experience, the non-Japanese women who are most successful in cross-cultural relationships are the ones who tend to embrace Japanese culture the most. This means observing cultural norms like, in family get-togethers, cooking food while the men eat and drink, and all sorts of other stuff.
It's a lot tougher than I have it!
posted by KokuRyu at 9:23 AM on February 16, 2012
It's a lot tougher than I have it!
posted by KokuRyu at 9:23 AM on February 16, 2012
he has had a VERY hard time getting over the fact that I've been with other men.
just about this point: this seems similar to the problem some women have with their partners watching porn, and i think a similar solution, where you don't try to constantly remind him and he pretends it never happened, could work.
i'm NOT saying you should pretend parts of your life never happened. porn and the past partners thing are similar in that they're about insecurity, and to the extent that you can try to be sensitive to that and he can suspend his disbelief, it could work.
posted by cupcake1337 at 11:49 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
just about this point: this seems similar to the problem some women have with their partners watching porn, and i think a similar solution, where you don't try to constantly remind him and he pretends it never happened, could work.
i'm NOT saying you should pretend parts of your life never happened. porn and the past partners thing are similar in that they're about insecurity, and to the extent that you can try to be sensitive to that and he can suspend his disbelief, it could work.
posted by cupcake1337 at 11:49 AM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Regarding his discomfort with the fact that you've been with other men, please exercise caution. Do not assume it will get better. One of the worst experiences I have ever gone through was dating an Indian-born Muslim man studying at my college. His jealousy and controlling behavior was subtle at first, in that it bothered him that I had been with other people before him, but then it grew and grew until he was trying to control how I dressed, what friends I ate lunch with, he would follow me around without my knowledge and spy on me, and eventually he threatened to kill any future person I might be in a relationship if I ever left him. And eventually he threatened to kill me - twice. He said that it killed him inside to think of me ever being with another man that wasn't him, that the thought of it was indescribably unclean. The time I spent dating him was the worst 6 months of my life, and for the last 3 months I didn't leave because I feared for the safety of my family if I left him or angered him. When he finally told me he would kill me I figured out that sticking around was probably not going to end well and moved out of the city where I was studying and back home with my family while I finished my degree. I spent the next year constantly looking over my shoulder, afraid that he would make good on his promise. I still fear this sometimes. I have no idea where he is or what he is doing now.
I can't make concrete generalizations about all Arab or Muslim men, obviously, but please trust your instincts. I haven't dated any other Muslim or Arab men since, but he was not outwardly some psychotic person when we started dating... His jealousy and controlling behavior started very small and seemed a little strange, but probably not a big deal. He didn't treat anyone else in a controlling manner, and didn't make comments about any other women being immodest. Over time the imbalances in our cultural outlook ate away at him and he couldn't accept that I wasn't the chaste and pure modest virgin he had been brought up to respect. I know there are plenty of psychotic and abusing non-Muslim or Arab men, and plenty of wonderful Arab men in intercultural relationships, and that it's not PC to say this, but be very, very careful what you agree to, what information you give him about yourself, and what commitments you make. Your cultures are different. You have been raised with different expectations. This is NOT trivial.
There are multiple instances I have read about of women getting into relationships with men in countries where women have zero rights and no legal rights concerning their children, and being forced to stay against their will.
This is just one person you meet in your life - not necessarily your One True Love. Living the rest of your life is more important than an exotic romance.
posted by permiechickie at 12:10 PM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
I can't make concrete generalizations about all Arab or Muslim men, obviously, but please trust your instincts. I haven't dated any other Muslim or Arab men since, but he was not outwardly some psychotic person when we started dating... His jealousy and controlling behavior started very small and seemed a little strange, but probably not a big deal. He didn't treat anyone else in a controlling manner, and didn't make comments about any other women being immodest. Over time the imbalances in our cultural outlook ate away at him and he couldn't accept that I wasn't the chaste and pure modest virgin he had been brought up to respect. I know there are plenty of psychotic and abusing non-Muslim or Arab men, and plenty of wonderful Arab men in intercultural relationships, and that it's not PC to say this, but be very, very careful what you agree to, what information you give him about yourself, and what commitments you make. Your cultures are different. You have been raised with different expectations. This is NOT trivial.
There are multiple instances I have read about of women getting into relationships with men in countries where women have zero rights and no legal rights concerning their children, and being forced to stay against their will.
This is just one person you meet in your life - not necessarily your One True Love. Living the rest of your life is more important than an exotic romance.
posted by permiechickie at 12:10 PM on February 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Permiechickie: tremendous account. I don't understand why you just didn't have him deported? You know, "if you see something, say something"
posted by Kruger5 at 12:52 PM on February 16, 2012
posted by Kruger5 at 12:52 PM on February 16, 2012
Deportation was actually what kept me from filing a restraining order. He had told me that his family "had connections," and when things started to get bad he intimated that if I reported him to the police and got him in trouble with the university or got him deported that he would have "nothing to lose anymore." I did report it to the police when I left for good, but I don't think anything came of it as he hadn't actually hurt me or anyone else.
posted by permiechickie at 1:14 PM on February 16, 2012
posted by permiechickie at 1:14 PM on February 16, 2012
Actually? This is remarkably simple. I too have lived in many countries, where I have had relationships. What has always been my guiding light is: the individual. You are having a relationship with a person, not just a culture. I approach life as rationally as I know how to. Which means, I reject or accept aspects of any culture I happen to find myself in, depending entirely on how much sense it makes from the point of view of having a healthy relationship, and indeed a healthy life.
Call it a cafeteria approach to any culture (including your own): take only that which makes sense to you. After all, you too took only what made sense to you from your culture - in this case, you are "pro-choice, gay-loving liberal feminist who loves organic food and campfires", and you rejected that which can also readily be found in your culture: the redneck worldview. You picked and you chose.
Pick and choose. Accept, but also reject. Does that make sense? Not only does it make sense, but it's the only rational approach, for the simple reason that no single culture has all the answers. In an increasingly multi-cultural world, where we are all exposed to different points of view, there are really no excuses left to be an isolationist provincial who doesn't know better because they're ignorant.
And that brings me to the your partner. You hold yourself to high standards. You thought about your culture, and you chose those aspects you thought were the best and rejected those that didn't fit. Why would you hold your partner to any lower a standard? The "but it's my culture!!!1uno!" excuse is contemptible. Ask yourself this of your partner: Are you a rational agent, or are you a slave to groundless and arbitrary customs whose only reason for being is sheer passage of time? Do you live a life examined, or do you passively wallow in whatever you were born into? If you are not capable of transcending your own culture, you are not a fit partner for me. If you are capable, but your values contradict mine, you are not a fit partner for me. You and me have to reach an understanding based on our values and the best we can aspire to, regardless of culture. Because in the end, it's all about me and you. Choose accordingly - does he fit you, given the highest standards? Culture offers no free get out of jail card from personal standards.
posted by VikingSword at 1:57 PM on February 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
Call it a cafeteria approach to any culture (including your own): take only that which makes sense to you. After all, you too took only what made sense to you from your culture - in this case, you are "pro-choice, gay-loving liberal feminist who loves organic food and campfires", and you rejected that which can also readily be found in your culture: the redneck worldview. You picked and you chose.
Pick and choose. Accept, but also reject. Does that make sense? Not only does it make sense, but it's the only rational approach, for the simple reason that no single culture has all the answers. In an increasingly multi-cultural world, where we are all exposed to different points of view, there are really no excuses left to be an isolationist provincial who doesn't know better because they're ignorant.
And that brings me to the your partner. You hold yourself to high standards. You thought about your culture, and you chose those aspects you thought were the best and rejected those that didn't fit. Why would you hold your partner to any lower a standard? The "but it's my culture!!!1uno!" excuse is contemptible. Ask yourself this of your partner: Are you a rational agent, or are you a slave to groundless and arbitrary customs whose only reason for being is sheer passage of time? Do you live a life examined, or do you passively wallow in whatever you were born into? If you are not capable of transcending your own culture, you are not a fit partner for me. If you are capable, but your values contradict mine, you are not a fit partner for me. You and me have to reach an understanding based on our values and the best we can aspire to, regardless of culture. Because in the end, it's all about me and you. Choose accordingly - does he fit you, given the highest standards? Culture offers no free get out of jail card from personal standards.
posted by VikingSword at 1:57 PM on February 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
What has always been my guiding light is: the individual. You are having a relationship with a person, not just a culture. I approach life as rationally as I know how to. Which means, I reject or accept aspects of any culture I happen to find myself in, depending entirely on how much sense it makes from the point of view of having a healthy relationship, and indeed a healthy life.
Seconding this, times a million.
I speak as someone who has dated people from several different cultures, including a five-year relationship with an Iranian man whose opinions on my past echoed your partner's. Because I grew up in a very conservative religious environment and was familiar (I thought) with this type of philosophy, I initially sympathised with his pain and jealousy regarding my past. I believed in a policy of honesty and openness, and (idealistically) assumed that open-mindedness and love would conquer all. I assumed that, as had happened with some of my friends, he would eventually get over it. I assumed that his professed open-mindedness, and the lectures he would give on progressive philosophy and unity and so on were something he could actually absorb and act upon, despite the insiduous messages of cultural upbringing. My own open-mindedness caused me to naively believe that people were always capable of being better, always capable of learning, always capable of changing.
I was wrong.
There is a reason why people who are abused as children often have issues as adults, unless they have consciously dealt with the patterns they inherited; and sometimes they still will. For some people this is more difficult than others; for some people, certain aspects of thier upbringing - and yes, culture - are harder to pry out than others, even when they consciously claim to reject them. Think, as an example, about the messages of gender and body-image insiduous in western media and society. Think about how difficult it is for many women, even as self-aware educated adults, to fully reject or oppose that image. We admit it is unhealthy. Yet it affects us. It always will. It's part of our life narrative, to chose to accept or fight, and yes we have the option to fight it, but it's still there. I hope this is making sense.
In my experience, people who have absorbed an unhealthy cultural value are not easily changed by surface conversation or interactions.
In my experience with this relationship, this person truly did "love" me. On some level. This person truly wanted, on some level, to be different. But he gradually became more and more jealous, more and more possessive, and it became, in fact, a profoundly abusive relationship. His "culture" combined with his own insecurities resulted in him never forgiving me for having a sexual relationship before him. He would never "allow" me to go to a lounge with my brother, to attend a friend's birthday party, to sit in a certain way in public, to say hello to an old friend I ran into at college who happened to be of the same culture as my ex-boyfriend. Someone above said you may be able to "ignore" the past and kind of leave a space around it; for someone like this, that does not work. They will find it everywhere. They will see it in someone with the same name as an ex you accidentally told them about. They will see it in your apparent flirting with a waiter at a restaurant. They will see it in something you argue with them about, that they insist means you are "comparing them." They will see it everywhere, and it WILL become abuse, and if you are too caught up in thinking "well, it's because his culture..." then you will put up with it for too long.
Don't be me. Don't do that.
Look, I have seen relationships where this type of thing did work out; but it was usually when the person had spent some significant time in other cultures themselves and/or was a naturally flexible and accepting type of personality. I just want to strongly warn you to watch how this progresses. If he opens up, relaxes his opinions, starts to care less about your friendships, is open to dialogue and self-examination - great.
If he doesn't, and he continues to scorn your past and control your present, please please for the love of everything holy, do not allow "culture" to be an excuse. Please leave.
I still wish this person the best, and believe that they have potential, but I see my relationship for what it was. Abusive. Sick. Horrible.
I don't want anyone else to go through that.
posted by celtalitha at 5:15 PM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Seconding this, times a million.
I speak as someone who has dated people from several different cultures, including a five-year relationship with an Iranian man whose opinions on my past echoed your partner's. Because I grew up in a very conservative religious environment and was familiar (I thought) with this type of philosophy, I initially sympathised with his pain and jealousy regarding my past. I believed in a policy of honesty and openness, and (idealistically) assumed that open-mindedness and love would conquer all. I assumed that, as had happened with some of my friends, he would eventually get over it. I assumed that his professed open-mindedness, and the lectures he would give on progressive philosophy and unity and so on were something he could actually absorb and act upon, despite the insiduous messages of cultural upbringing. My own open-mindedness caused me to naively believe that people were always capable of being better, always capable of learning, always capable of changing.
I was wrong.
There is a reason why people who are abused as children often have issues as adults, unless they have consciously dealt with the patterns they inherited; and sometimes they still will. For some people this is more difficult than others; for some people, certain aspects of thier upbringing - and yes, culture - are harder to pry out than others, even when they consciously claim to reject them. Think, as an example, about the messages of gender and body-image insiduous in western media and society. Think about how difficult it is for many women, even as self-aware educated adults, to fully reject or oppose that image. We admit it is unhealthy. Yet it affects us. It always will. It's part of our life narrative, to chose to accept or fight, and yes we have the option to fight it, but it's still there. I hope this is making sense.
In my experience, people who have absorbed an unhealthy cultural value are not easily changed by surface conversation or interactions.
In my experience with this relationship, this person truly did "love" me. On some level. This person truly wanted, on some level, to be different. But he gradually became more and more jealous, more and more possessive, and it became, in fact, a profoundly abusive relationship. His "culture" combined with his own insecurities resulted in him never forgiving me for having a sexual relationship before him. He would never "allow" me to go to a lounge with my brother, to attend a friend's birthday party, to sit in a certain way in public, to say hello to an old friend I ran into at college who happened to be of the same culture as my ex-boyfriend. Someone above said you may be able to "ignore" the past and kind of leave a space around it; for someone like this, that does not work. They will find it everywhere. They will see it in someone with the same name as an ex you accidentally told them about. They will see it in your apparent flirting with a waiter at a restaurant. They will see it in something you argue with them about, that they insist means you are "comparing them." They will see it everywhere, and it WILL become abuse, and if you are too caught up in thinking "well, it's because his culture..." then you will put up with it for too long.
Don't be me. Don't do that.
Look, I have seen relationships where this type of thing did work out; but it was usually when the person had spent some significant time in other cultures themselves and/or was a naturally flexible and accepting type of personality. I just want to strongly warn you to watch how this progresses. If he opens up, relaxes his opinions, starts to care less about your friendships, is open to dialogue and self-examination - great.
If he doesn't, and he continues to scorn your past and control your present, please please for the love of everything holy, do not allow "culture" to be an excuse. Please leave.
I still wish this person the best, and believe that they have potential, but I see my relationship for what it was. Abusive. Sick. Horrible.
I don't want anyone else to go through that.
posted by celtalitha at 5:15 PM on February 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
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If he is having a hard time getting over the fact that you've been with other men...how are you two ever going to have a healthy relationship?
posted by TinWhistle at 6:15 AM on February 16, 2012 [11 favorites]