Veterans Day Special: How can disabled Vet and West Point grad best move into Software Engineering?
November 11, 2010 9:07 AM Subscribe
Veterans Day Special: How can disabled Vet and West Point grad best move into Software Engineering?
In late December of 2008, I was medically separated from the U.S. Army due to a training accident. I had hoped for a medical waiver to allow me to continue to train as a helicopter pilot, but that was ruled as impossible. In that moment, my life underwent a radical shift in direction. As a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point summa cum laude, my academic efforts had hitherto intensely been directed towards preparing me for a career as an Army leader. With that door suddenly closed, I became professionally disoriented and struggled to imagine the next step in my professional development. In light of my military experience and fluency in the German language, I began a PhD program focusing in European and military history at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. While this experience was intellectually stimulating, my historical research left me with a vague sense of dread. How important is this research really? What impact will my writings make on the world? These doubts and my wife’s desire to attend medical school in Chicago ultimately led me to resign from my academic fellowship in search of other opportunities.
I have concluded that my mistake in choosing to study military history was that I assumed a clear linear progression in my career development. I was a good student / disabled veteran with experience working with the German Army, ergo I chose the study European and military history. The problem with this logic is that I attended West Point to become an officer and commander, not an academic and scholar. Since moving to Chicago, I have undergone a period of intense self-reflection, which has included books such as The Pathfinder and What Color Is Your Parachute? I now realize that the correct career move for me is not to figure out a way to leverage my Army experience into a job, but to retrain myself for a job that I would enjoy as much as I enjoyed the Army. I want to find a job where I can be intellectually stimulated while working towards making the world a better place.
I have been deeply contemplating cross-training into Software Engineering based off how much I devote to computers as a hobby and the fact that, in a previous life, I had actually been contemplating an IT career. I actually earned my A+ Certifications in high school and worked part-time doing computer repair in the Bay Area. The millennial dot-com crash and the September 11th attacks served to shift my interests from computers to the military. As a result of my training injury and medical discharge from the Army, I now find myself having come full circle over the past decade.
I have been trying everything I can think of to break into IT, but I’ve been largely unsuccessful. The biggest problem is the absolute lack of entry-level jobs or internships in the Chicago area. I know that there is no way to evaluate software development as a potential career without actually coding, but it’s difficult to find opportunities. Most of the local West Point alumni work in business and finance, and I’ve gotten job offers in both of those fields, but I have very little interest in the MBA / 80-100 hour week lifestyle. My wife is a medical student, and if I took a job like that, our marriage would fall apart. So, my network is not equipped to help me professionally. Furthermore, the federal government / military contractor presence is minimal here, which are normally the types of organizations willing to employ disabled veterans.
I have recently been considering going back to school to study Software Engineering. An MS in Computer Science can be completed in one year at the University of Chicago (or two years while working full-time), and my GI Bill will pay for most of the program. I envision building my technical expertise over the next few years before shifting my efforts to become an IT Project Manger. Admittedly, none of this is crystal clear. I think that this sort of career path could capitalize on my West Point experiences and my personality traits, but I am far from certain. I am really hoping to figure out a way to find a technical entry-level position or internship that will immerse me in IT and give me a chance to really examine my professional preconceptions. Ideally, I would like to test the waters before committing to a graduate program, and if it works out, continue to work while attending school part-time.
I would really appreciate advice on the following issues:
1.) Am I doing the right thing my turning down high paying jobs in business and finance because of my suspicions that I would prefer IT?
2.) Do you think that Software Engineering could actually be a good fit for me based off this post?
3.) How should I go about getting a shot at an IT internship, preferably in Software Engineering? How else can I figure out if this would be a good career for me?
4.) Do you think this professional Masters in CS at U of Chicago could be a good fit for me? http://masters.cs.uchicago.edu/
5.) Do you think that software would actually have a more healthy work life balance than business or finance?
Thank you and Happy Veterans Day!
In late December of 2008, I was medically separated from the U.S. Army due to a training accident. I had hoped for a medical waiver to allow me to continue to train as a helicopter pilot, but that was ruled as impossible. In that moment, my life underwent a radical shift in direction. As a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point summa cum laude, my academic efforts had hitherto intensely been directed towards preparing me for a career as an Army leader. With that door suddenly closed, I became professionally disoriented and struggled to imagine the next step in my professional development. In light of my military experience and fluency in the German language, I began a PhD program focusing in European and military history at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. While this experience was intellectually stimulating, my historical research left me with a vague sense of dread. How important is this research really? What impact will my writings make on the world? These doubts and my wife’s desire to attend medical school in Chicago ultimately led me to resign from my academic fellowship in search of other opportunities.
I have concluded that my mistake in choosing to study military history was that I assumed a clear linear progression in my career development. I was a good student / disabled veteran with experience working with the German Army, ergo I chose the study European and military history. The problem with this logic is that I attended West Point to become an officer and commander, not an academic and scholar. Since moving to Chicago, I have undergone a period of intense self-reflection, which has included books such as The Pathfinder and What Color Is Your Parachute? I now realize that the correct career move for me is not to figure out a way to leverage my Army experience into a job, but to retrain myself for a job that I would enjoy as much as I enjoyed the Army. I want to find a job where I can be intellectually stimulated while working towards making the world a better place.
I have been deeply contemplating cross-training into Software Engineering based off how much I devote to computers as a hobby and the fact that, in a previous life, I had actually been contemplating an IT career. I actually earned my A+ Certifications in high school and worked part-time doing computer repair in the Bay Area. The millennial dot-com crash and the September 11th attacks served to shift my interests from computers to the military. As a result of my training injury and medical discharge from the Army, I now find myself having come full circle over the past decade.
I have been trying everything I can think of to break into IT, but I’ve been largely unsuccessful. The biggest problem is the absolute lack of entry-level jobs or internships in the Chicago area. I know that there is no way to evaluate software development as a potential career without actually coding, but it’s difficult to find opportunities. Most of the local West Point alumni work in business and finance, and I’ve gotten job offers in both of those fields, but I have very little interest in the MBA / 80-100 hour week lifestyle. My wife is a medical student, and if I took a job like that, our marriage would fall apart. So, my network is not equipped to help me professionally. Furthermore, the federal government / military contractor presence is minimal here, which are normally the types of organizations willing to employ disabled veterans.
I have recently been considering going back to school to study Software Engineering. An MS in Computer Science can be completed in one year at the University of Chicago (or two years while working full-time), and my GI Bill will pay for most of the program. I envision building my technical expertise over the next few years before shifting my efforts to become an IT Project Manger. Admittedly, none of this is crystal clear. I think that this sort of career path could capitalize on my West Point experiences and my personality traits, but I am far from certain. I am really hoping to figure out a way to find a technical entry-level position or internship that will immerse me in IT and give me a chance to really examine my professional preconceptions. Ideally, I would like to test the waters before committing to a graduate program, and if it works out, continue to work while attending school part-time.
I would really appreciate advice on the following issues:
1.) Am I doing the right thing my turning down high paying jobs in business and finance because of my suspicions that I would prefer IT?
2.) Do you think that Software Engineering could actually be a good fit for me based off this post?
3.) How should I go about getting a shot at an IT internship, preferably in Software Engineering? How else can I figure out if this would be a good career for me?
4.) Do you think this professional Masters in CS at U of Chicago could be a good fit for me? http://masters.cs.uchicago.edu/
5.) Do you think that software would actually have a more healthy work life balance than business or finance?
Thank you and Happy Veterans Day!
1. yes
2. don't see why not
3. You haven't said how pressing an income is. If you can afford to go without one, I'd forget about an internship, and get involved with an open source project. (There have been lots of AskMes about breaking into programming where this is a popular answer.)
4. I did an MS in computer science in a year. I absolutely could not have done it with much less experience than I had from having a BS in computer science. If you haven't already studied data structures, algorithms, theory of computation, discrete math, a bunch of other things, and done a lot of programming, I cannot recommend the attempt.
Also, an MS can mean a higher initial salary, but it isn't a prerequisite for a different class of job the way it is in some fields. (There have been a couple of AskMes about the relevance of a CS MS where this is a popular answer.)
5. Some software jobs (startups and game companies are famous for it) can be insanely unhealthy. Others are just fine.
Happy Veterans Day.
posted by Zed at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2010
2. don't see why not
3. You haven't said how pressing an income is. If you can afford to go without one, I'd forget about an internship, and get involved with an open source project. (There have been lots of AskMes about breaking into programming where this is a popular answer.)
4. I did an MS in computer science in a year. I absolutely could not have done it with much less experience than I had from having a BS in computer science. If you haven't already studied data structures, algorithms, theory of computation, discrete math, a bunch of other things, and done a lot of programming, I cannot recommend the attempt.
Also, an MS can mean a higher initial salary, but it isn't a prerequisite for a different class of job the way it is in some fields. (There have been a couple of AskMes about the relevance of a CS MS where this is a popular answer.)
5. Some software jobs (startups and game companies are famous for it) can be insanely unhealthy. Others are just fine.
Happy Veterans Day.
posted by Zed at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2010
I should emphasize that my conception of IT vs. Software Engineering vs. Computer Science might be completely off, but I really think there are solid differences there that you might want to explore.
It looks like you're saying that you really don't have any programming experience, too. If that is because your natural inclinations are toward computer fixing and computer-related stuff (as opposed to programming, which can point toward CS or Engineering), pay attention to warning signs and really look closely at your background & interests as career indicators.
posted by circular at 9:35 AM on November 11, 2010
It looks like you're saying that you really don't have any programming experience, too. If that is because your natural inclinations are toward computer fixing and computer-related stuff (as opposed to programming, which can point toward CS or Engineering), pay attention to warning signs and really look closely at your background & interests as career indicators.
posted by circular at 9:35 AM on November 11, 2010
Lots of people will suggest that you pick an open source project, grab a task, and start coding. I would even agree with them. :7)
But when you mention being a project manager, it makes me suggest that you contact someone in the IT industry already doing PM work. I have found that not all of them have a rigorous technical background, so you getting a degree might not be worth it if you want to be a PM. (If you want to get some respect as a PM, it's still a good idea.). The PMP certificate, on the other hand, _does_ seem to carry weight in that field. (It also requires a thousand hours of experience, which may be tricky for you to accumulate without already having a job in the field. Chicken, meet egg.)
(A friend went through NROTC and then, just before graduation, he was told there wasn't a slot for him and they put him in IRR. He, too, had to swiftly reexamine his life and find a new path. Now, 15 years later, he has an MBA and a great job in the finance sector. You'll probably land on your feet, too, but which direction you end up facing can cause some stress. :7) Good luck!)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:40 AM on November 11, 2010
But when you mention being a project manager, it makes me suggest that you contact someone in the IT industry already doing PM work. I have found that not all of them have a rigorous technical background, so you getting a degree might not be worth it if you want to be a PM. (If you want to get some respect as a PM, it's still a good idea.). The PMP certificate, on the other hand, _does_ seem to carry weight in that field. (It also requires a thousand hours of experience, which may be tricky for you to accumulate without already having a job in the field. Chicken, meet egg.)
(A friend went through NROTC and then, just before graduation, he was told there wasn't a slot for him and they put him in IRR. He, too, had to swiftly reexamine his life and find a new path. Now, 15 years later, he has an MBA and a great job in the finance sector. You'll probably land on your feet, too, but which direction you end up facing can cause some stress. :7) Good luck!)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:40 AM on November 11, 2010
1) Yes, you're probably doing the right thing. If your gut tells you that you aren't cut out for 80-100hr work weeks and "boring" finance/business, then don't do it. The ultimate goal should be to find a job you enjoy and find satisfying. It sounds like IT is the right choice for you.
2) Based off only your writing style and the way you have logically outlined your question you already seem like a person who would do well in IT. Your apparent enthusiasm for the field is another positive indicator.
3) You say that an MS in CompSci can be completed in 2 years working full time? I think a great approach to take would be to start the schooling with the idea that you will look for internships while you are completing your degree (sort of like a Co-Op program, but perhaps done on your own). For one, you don't mention any current or relevant IT skills, so your resume probably doesn't speak well to folks looking for IT interns or entry-level jobs. Secondly, even having "MS CompSci - In Progress" on your resume, even if it is your first day at school, will peak potential employer's interest. You may, in fact, be able to pedal yourself as a good fit for a co-op type deal with a company.
4) Unfortunately I don't have the time to look over the degree you link to but given what I know about the Univ of Chicago and their reputation in CompSci, I think it'll be perfect.
5) Yes.
posted by mbatch at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2010
2) Based off only your writing style and the way you have logically outlined your question you already seem like a person who would do well in IT. Your apparent enthusiasm for the field is another positive indicator.
3) You say that an MS in CompSci can be completed in 2 years working full time? I think a great approach to take would be to start the schooling with the idea that you will look for internships while you are completing your degree (sort of like a Co-Op program, but perhaps done on your own). For one, you don't mention any current or relevant IT skills, so your resume probably doesn't speak well to folks looking for IT interns or entry-level jobs. Secondly, even having "MS CompSci - In Progress" on your resume, even if it is your first day at school, will peak potential employer's interest. You may, in fact, be able to pedal yourself as a good fit for a co-op type deal with a company.
4) Unfortunately I don't have the time to look over the degree you link to but given what I know about the Univ of Chicago and their reputation in CompSci, I think it'll be perfect.
5) Yes.
posted by mbatch at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2010
First, thank you and thanks to all your fellow veterans and those currently serving. I appreciate it. I cannot answer if you are doing right by turning down high paying jobs in pursuit of your dream, but as an older guy, I do think now is the time to try different things. I would also consider other government work such as with the CIA. A USMA grad with fluent foreign language skills meets a lot of needs at the agency. As for coding, I would find something you want to code and start doing it. You certainly sound like a self starter and you will learn a lot about coding and your passion for doing it.
posted by AugustWest at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
As a veteran, the major defense contractors (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc), as well as probably the smaller ones, would likely be very interested in you. Many have active veteran recruiting programs. You could talk with their recruiters in your area and see what career paths might be best suited to you based on your background. They certainly have career paths in the areas you are considering.
posted by jshort at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jshort at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
spmcbride1201: "An MS in Computer Science can be completed in one year at the University of Chicago (or two years while working full-time), and my GI Bill will pay for most of the program."
Any degree program that doesn't assign a candidate like you (going only on what's been provided) a lot of remedial education in CS is not worth having. And I'm not confident that a single semester (13 weeks) of "Immersion" is sufficient. Perhaps someone from UoC can step forward and speak about the program, but unless you're hiding a lot of software you've written under that A+ cert, there's not much in your background that says "prepared for master's level CS". You might go to an Information Session in January and ask them how much time the summer program requires, since you plan on working full time to support you and your wife in med school. In-class time, homework time, study time, extra curricular mandatory activities (UNIX bootcamp), etc.
The biggest problem is the absolute lack of entry-level jobs or internships in the Chicago area. I know that there is no way to evaluate software development as a potential career without actually coding, but it’s difficult to find opportunities.
If you want to get an idea of what coding is like, here's the immersion course website. Jobs in entry level in programming generally requires a bachelor's. In CS. There are places that just hire "PHP programmer" without a strict degree requirement, but you'd still have to pass technical interviews and they're not generally the kinds of places that have a Software Engineer or Project Manager on staff.
posted by pwnguin at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2010
Any degree program that doesn't assign a candidate like you (going only on what's been provided) a lot of remedial education in CS is not worth having. And I'm not confident that a single semester (13 weeks) of "Immersion" is sufficient. Perhaps someone from UoC can step forward and speak about the program, but unless you're hiding a lot of software you've written under that A+ cert, there's not much in your background that says "prepared for master's level CS". You might go to an Information Session in January and ask them how much time the summer program requires, since you plan on working full time to support you and your wife in med school. In-class time, homework time, study time, extra curricular mandatory activities (UNIX bootcamp), etc.
The biggest problem is the absolute lack of entry-level jobs or internships in the Chicago area. I know that there is no way to evaluate software development as a potential career without actually coding, but it’s difficult to find opportunities.
If you want to get an idea of what coding is like, here's the immersion course website. Jobs in entry level in programming generally requires a bachelor's. In CS. There are places that just hire "PHP programmer" without a strict degree requirement, but you'd still have to pass technical interviews and they're not generally the kinds of places that have a Software Engineer or Project Manager on staff.
posted by pwnguin at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2010
Wow. Talk about underpreparing students for the modern world:
For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there. If you take this course, I would highly recommend you take the time to learn Subversion or Mercurial/git/bzr. RCS is 28 years old. We use CVS at my current place of employment, and everyone knows it's old and crappy, and we're going to move away from it. I haven't done a trustworthy survey of the field, but my impression is that a lot of big firm software developers use either SVN or Mercurial (often abbreviated "Hg"). The easiest of these tools to use is probably git, which was designed by Linus Torvalds for use in managing the Linux kernel.
posted by pwnguin at 11:37 AM on November 11, 2010
version control
not the same as backups
CVS, subversion, git, good for directories full of source code, collaboration
rcs, tiny, transparent, immediately useful
highly recommended, unless you are already comfortable with another
For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there. If you take this course, I would highly recommend you take the time to learn Subversion or Mercurial/git/bzr. RCS is 28 years old. We use CVS at my current place of employment, and everyone knows it's old and crappy, and we're going to move away from it. I haven't done a trustworthy survey of the field, but my impression is that a lot of big firm software developers use either SVN or Mercurial (often abbreviated "Hg"). The easiest of these tools to use is probably git, which was designed by Linus Torvalds for use in managing the Linux kernel.
posted by pwnguin at 11:37 AM on November 11, 2010
Do you have significant programming experience? I don't think you would do well in a CS MS without that. The classes are very, very technical: I've had to learn big, complicated programming languages in just a few days because they were required for class without warning. And that's even before having the mathematical background to understand the algorithms you're working with.
Many schools offer a separate Software Engineering MS that focuses on project management, leadership, etc. rather than technical skills. Many people without a lot of technical background start in those programs and do quite well. I think that kind of program might be a good fit, and your humanities knowledge and military experience might be more valued. I don't know of any in the Chicago area off the top of my head.
In the civilian world you're probably used to getting some degree of respect as an injured veteran. In academic CS, that will not happen -- in fact many people are from countries that we aren't particularly friendly with, and will hold it against you.
However, a lot of defense contractors run huge software projects, and they love hiring veterans (partly because it's a legal requirement to get contracts, but also because having that point of view genuinely helps in making defense products).
I'm in CS grad school now and you can memail me if you have any questions.
posted by miyabo at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2010
Many schools offer a separate Software Engineering MS that focuses on project management, leadership, etc. rather than technical skills. Many people without a lot of technical background start in those programs and do quite well. I think that kind of program might be a good fit, and your humanities knowledge and military experience might be more valued. I don't know of any in the Chicago area off the top of my head.
In the civilian world you're probably used to getting some degree of respect as an injured veteran. In academic CS, that will not happen -- in fact many people are from countries that we aren't particularly friendly with, and will hold it against you.
However, a lot of defense contractors run huge software projects, and they love hiring veterans (partly because it's a legal requirement to get contracts, but also because having that point of view genuinely helps in making defense products).
I'm in CS grad school now and you can memail me if you have any questions.
posted by miyabo at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2010
As mentioned by others, given the nature of open source, opportunities are quite *easy* to come by. Unlike most fields, programming has an existing testing ground for unproven talent, and that's it.
Start answering (or reading!) question on StackOverflow, hang out irc channels, go to meetups, start a blog, and get your name on some things. If you want to get *paid* while you are learning, and being a menace to the code of others (kidding!), that is a different story, and you might be out of luck there!
posted by gregglind at 1:56 PM on November 11, 2010
Start answering (or reading!) question on StackOverflow, hang out irc channels, go to meetups, start a blog, and get your name on some things. If you want to get *paid* while you are learning, and being a menace to the code of others (kidding!), that is a different story, and you might be out of luck there!
posted by gregglind at 1:56 PM on November 11, 2010
In the civilian world you're probably used to getting some degree of respect as an injured veteran. In academic CS, that will not happen -- in fact many people are from countries that we aren't particularly friendly with, and will hold it against you.
(miyabo)
I don't know about the international angle, but my feeling is that your military service, especially with a non-technical MOS, will not be considered relevant experience and if you bring it up unexpectedly or repeatedly, then people might think you're bragging or being jingoistic or something similarly unpalatable.
For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there. If you take this course, I would highly recommend you take the time to learn Subversion or Mercurial/git/bzr. (pwnguin)
At least when I was an undergraduate taking intro CS, we used subversion and homework was only accepted by commit to the department repository. Most of the instructors are tenure-track or tenured faculty with good reputations among the undergraduates. You would be better served by looking at the syllabi for the more advanced courses: here's the schedule with links to last year's course websites.
But you should consider whether you have the technical and mathematical background for this program. I'm sure they've calibrated the immersion program so that you would still pass if that were your first exposure to C and UNIX, but I suspect you'd have a busy year.
posted by d. z. wang at 2:21 PM on November 11, 2010
(miyabo)
I don't know about the international angle, but my feeling is that your military service, especially with a non-technical MOS, will not be considered relevant experience and if you bring it up unexpectedly or repeatedly, then people might think you're bragging or being jingoistic or something similarly unpalatable.
For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there. If you take this course, I would highly recommend you take the time to learn Subversion or Mercurial/git/bzr. (pwnguin)
At least when I was an undergraduate taking intro CS, we used subversion and homework was only accepted by commit to the department repository. Most of the instructors are tenure-track or tenured faculty with good reputations among the undergraduates. You would be better served by looking at the syllabi for the more advanced courses: here's the schedule with links to last year's course websites.
But you should consider whether you have the technical and mathematical background for this program. I'm sure they've calibrated the immersion program so that you would still pass if that were your first exposure to C and UNIX, but I suspect you'd have a busy year.
posted by d. z. wang at 2:21 PM on November 11, 2010
Response by poster: Thank you for the wonderful feedback. I’d like to clarify some things based off your comments.
**Circular “Hm, something odd here...you're mentioning CS, software engineering, and IT. These things, in my mind, seem a bit more disparate...anyway, go ask a counselor. That'll get you good advice.”
Response: You’re right to bring up the fact that these fields are disparate. Because I’m coming from outside of the field, I tend to group these together, but they are distinct skill sets. I appreciate your thoughts about a counselor. I have been working at lining up some informational interviews with individuals at different levels in IT, Software, and academic CS to figure out what would be the best fit for me.
**Zed – “You haven't said how pressing an income is. If you can afford to go without one, I'd forget about an internship, and get involved with an open source project. (There have been lots of AskMes about breaking into programming where this is a popular answer.)”
Response: Income is not that pressing for me right now in the short run (I didn’t even realize internships were paid), so I would be quite interested in open source projects. I look through previous posts for more information.
**Curcular - “It looks like you're saying that you really don't have any programming experience, too.”
Response: I should have mentioned more about my coursework at West Point. Although German was my major, I earned a Bachelor of Science degree due to quite a bit of math/science/engineering coursework. CS was my “engineering track,” which is essentially the equivalent of a minor. Within this minor, I took two courses more focused in IT topics like networks and three courses in programming/databases (Ada, PHP, SQL). I do therefore have some limited experience with programming, but it’s more of a conceptual exposure than a useful skill set at this point. However, I should mention that I did relatively well in my CS courses. I actually won an award for best non-major Computer Science student in my graduating class.
**Wenestvedt - “But when you mention being a project manager, it makes me suggest that you contact someone in the IT industry already doing PM work. I have found that not all of them have a rigorous technical background, so you getting a degree might not be worth it if you want to be a PM. (If you want to get some respect as a PM, it's still a good idea.).
Response: This is a good point. I do eventually want to move into management in order to take advantage of my leadership experience, but I would ideally like to work 5-10 years as an individual contributor in order to build up some expertise in my domain before becoming a project manager.
**mbatch – “You say that an MS in CompSci can be completed in 2 years working full time? I think a great approach to take would be to start the schooling with the idea that you will look for internships while you are completing your degree (sort of like a Co-Op program, but perhaps done on your own). For one, you don't mention any current or relevant IT skills, so your resume probably doesn't speak well to folks looking for IT interns or entry-level jobs. Secondly, even having "MS CompSci - In Progress" on your resume, even if it is your first day at school, will peak potential employer's interest. You may, in fact, be able to pedal yourself as a good fit for a co-op type deal with a company.”
Response: This is essentially what Grady Booch (an Air Force Academy grad and IBM Fellow) told me. I’ve been contacting IBM, Google, Microsoft, and Boeing to see if this could be a possibility.
**AugustWest – “I would also consider other government work such as with the CIA. A USMA grad with fluent foreign language skills meets a lot of needs at the agency. As for coding, I would find something you want to code and start doing it. You certainly sound like a self starter and you will learn a lot about coding and your passion for doing it.”
Response: Unfortunately there are very few intelligence opportunities in Chicago, and I will be located here until at least 2013 when my wife graduates from medical school. Ironically, business intelligence positions often require a degree in Computer Science as well due to data mining/warehousing.
**jshort - As a veteran, the major defense contractors (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc), as well as probably the smaller ones, would likely be very interested in you.
Response: Boeing is the only contractor well represented in Chicagoland. I would love to eventually code for military equipment.
**pwnguin – “Any degree program that doesn't assign a candidate like you (going only on what's been provided) a lot of remedial education in CS is not worth having. And I'm not confident that a single semester (13 weeks) of "Immersion" is sufficient. Perhaps someone from UoC can step forward and speak about the program, but unless you're hiding a lot of software you've written under that A+ cert, there's not much in your background that says "prepared for master's level CS". You might go to an Information Session in January and ask them how much time the summer program requires, since you plan on working full time to support you and your wife in med school. In-class time, homework time, study time, extra curricular mandatory activities (UNIX bootcamp), etc.”
Response: Thanks for taking a look at the CSPP for me! I’ve actually been to an information session for the program, and their sales pitch was that this program would be sufficient for career changers to land their first job in either IT or Software depending on the courses they take in the program. They also have been running ads on the Chicago-area NPR station to attract career changers/ unemployed folks. My biggest concern is that something like 85% of the folks take the program part-time, and thus already have a job. This makes it very difficult to get an idea about how employable I would actually be after this program.
**pwnguin – “For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there.”
Response: Good Point! I really need to run the course descriptions by folks in the industry to make up for this. I also think it’s interesting that the biggest demand for software professionals in Chicago seems to be for .Net (especially coding for financials downtown), which ironically is not offered. This clearly would have to be something that I would have to study on my own or online through something like the O’Reilly online certificate programs (http://www.oreillyschool.com/certificates/).
**miyabo – “Many schools offer a separate Software Engineering MS that focuses on project management, leadership, etc. rather than technical skills. Many people without a lot of technical background start in those programs and do quite well. I think that kind of program might be a good fit, and your humanities knowledge and military experience might be more valued. I don't know of any in the Chicago area off the top of my head.”
Response: Thanks for the tip! I know that a number of schools offer a MS in Management Information Systems, and project management seems to be one of the potential tracks. I’ll search for Software Engineering MS programs in Chicago though.
**gregglind – “As mentioned by others, given the nature of open source, opportunities are quite *easy* to come by. Unlike most fields, programming has an existing testing ground for unproven talent, and that's it.”
Response: I think this would be a great way to get my feet wet in coding. Any thoughts on which projects are best for beginners?
**d. z. wang – “But you should consider whether you have the technical and mathematical background for this program. I'm sure they've calibrated the immersion program so that you would still pass if that were your first exposure to C and UNIX, but I suspect you'd have a busy year.”
Response: You’re right. I’m sure it’ll be quite a steep learning curve.
Thank you all for your time and consideration! These are very enlightening posts, and you’ve been giving me quite a bit to think about. I can certainly see why the MBA route is the path of least resistance for most military folks, but I still think that I am better suited for a more technical career path. I will redouble my efforts to weigh IT against Software and tech-lite project management programs. I will also be sure to focus on government / defense contractors / firms that recruit military (Google, Microsoft, IBM). I actually am going to a veteran job fair tomorrow, and IBM and Google will be present, so hopefully something good will come of it.
posted by spmcbride1201 at 3:34 PM on November 11, 2010
**Circular “Hm, something odd here...you're mentioning CS, software engineering, and IT. These things, in my mind, seem a bit more disparate...anyway, go ask a counselor. That'll get you good advice.”
Response: You’re right to bring up the fact that these fields are disparate. Because I’m coming from outside of the field, I tend to group these together, but they are distinct skill sets. I appreciate your thoughts about a counselor. I have been working at lining up some informational interviews with individuals at different levels in IT, Software, and academic CS to figure out what would be the best fit for me.
**Zed – “You haven't said how pressing an income is. If you can afford to go without one, I'd forget about an internship, and get involved with an open source project. (There have been lots of AskMes about breaking into programming where this is a popular answer.)”
Response: Income is not that pressing for me right now in the short run (I didn’t even realize internships were paid), so I would be quite interested in open source projects. I look through previous posts for more information.
**Curcular - “It looks like you're saying that you really don't have any programming experience, too.”
Response: I should have mentioned more about my coursework at West Point. Although German was my major, I earned a Bachelor of Science degree due to quite a bit of math/science/engineering coursework. CS was my “engineering track,” which is essentially the equivalent of a minor. Within this minor, I took two courses more focused in IT topics like networks and three courses in programming/databases (Ada, PHP, SQL). I do therefore have some limited experience with programming, but it’s more of a conceptual exposure than a useful skill set at this point. However, I should mention that I did relatively well in my CS courses. I actually won an award for best non-major Computer Science student in my graduating class.
**Wenestvedt - “But when you mention being a project manager, it makes me suggest that you contact someone in the IT industry already doing PM work. I have found that not all of them have a rigorous technical background, so you getting a degree might not be worth it if you want to be a PM. (If you want to get some respect as a PM, it's still a good idea.).
Response: This is a good point. I do eventually want to move into management in order to take advantage of my leadership experience, but I would ideally like to work 5-10 years as an individual contributor in order to build up some expertise in my domain before becoming a project manager.
**mbatch – “You say that an MS in CompSci can be completed in 2 years working full time? I think a great approach to take would be to start the schooling with the idea that you will look for internships while you are completing your degree (sort of like a Co-Op program, but perhaps done on your own). For one, you don't mention any current or relevant IT skills, so your resume probably doesn't speak well to folks looking for IT interns or entry-level jobs. Secondly, even having "MS CompSci - In Progress" on your resume, even if it is your first day at school, will peak potential employer's interest. You may, in fact, be able to pedal yourself as a good fit for a co-op type deal with a company.”
Response: This is essentially what Grady Booch (an Air Force Academy grad and IBM Fellow) told me. I’ve been contacting IBM, Google, Microsoft, and Boeing to see if this could be a possibility.
**AugustWest – “I would also consider other government work such as with the CIA. A USMA grad with fluent foreign language skills meets a lot of needs at the agency. As for coding, I would find something you want to code and start doing it. You certainly sound like a self starter and you will learn a lot about coding and your passion for doing it.”
Response: Unfortunately there are very few intelligence opportunities in Chicago, and I will be located here until at least 2013 when my wife graduates from medical school. Ironically, business intelligence positions often require a degree in Computer Science as well due to data mining/warehousing.
**jshort - As a veteran, the major defense contractors (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc), as well as probably the smaller ones, would likely be very interested in you.
Response: Boeing is the only contractor well represented in Chicagoland. I would love to eventually code for military equipment.
**pwnguin – “Any degree program that doesn't assign a candidate like you (going only on what's been provided) a lot of remedial education in CS is not worth having. And I'm not confident that a single semester (13 weeks) of "Immersion" is sufficient. Perhaps someone from UoC can step forward and speak about the program, but unless you're hiding a lot of software you've written under that A+ cert, there's not much in your background that says "prepared for master's level CS". You might go to an Information Session in January and ask them how much time the summer program requires, since you plan on working full time to support you and your wife in med school. In-class time, homework time, study time, extra curricular mandatory activities (UNIX bootcamp), etc.”
Response: Thanks for taking a look at the CSPP for me! I’ve actually been to an information session for the program, and their sales pitch was that this program would be sufficient for career changers to land their first job in either IT or Software depending on the courses they take in the program. They also have been running ads on the Chicago-area NPR station to attract career changers/ unemployed folks. My biggest concern is that something like 85% of the folks take the program part-time, and thus already have a job. This makes it very difficult to get an idea about how employable I would actually be after this program.
**pwnguin – “For a degree program supposedly turning out CS professionals, they're not doing a good job of teaching the state of the art there.”
Response: Good Point! I really need to run the course descriptions by folks in the industry to make up for this. I also think it’s interesting that the biggest demand for software professionals in Chicago seems to be for .Net (especially coding for financials downtown), which ironically is not offered. This clearly would have to be something that I would have to study on my own or online through something like the O’Reilly online certificate programs (http://www.oreillyschool.com/certificates/).
**miyabo – “Many schools offer a separate Software Engineering MS that focuses on project management, leadership, etc. rather than technical skills. Many people without a lot of technical background start in those programs and do quite well. I think that kind of program might be a good fit, and your humanities knowledge and military experience might be more valued. I don't know of any in the Chicago area off the top of my head.”
Response: Thanks for the tip! I know that a number of schools offer a MS in Management Information Systems, and project management seems to be one of the potential tracks. I’ll search for Software Engineering MS programs in Chicago though.
**gregglind – “As mentioned by others, given the nature of open source, opportunities are quite *easy* to come by. Unlike most fields, programming has an existing testing ground for unproven talent, and that's it.”
Response: I think this would be a great way to get my feet wet in coding. Any thoughts on which projects are best for beginners?
**d. z. wang – “But you should consider whether you have the technical and mathematical background for this program. I'm sure they've calibrated the immersion program so that you would still pass if that were your first exposure to C and UNIX, but I suspect you'd have a busy year.”
Response: You’re right. I’m sure it’ll be quite a steep learning curve.
Thank you all for your time and consideration! These are very enlightening posts, and you’ve been giving me quite a bit to think about. I can certainly see why the MBA route is the path of least resistance for most military folks, but I still think that I am better suited for a more technical career path. I will redouble my efforts to weigh IT against Software and tech-lite project management programs. I will also be sure to focus on government / defense contractors / firms that recruit military (Google, Microsoft, IBM). I actually am going to a veteran job fair tomorrow, and IBM and Google will be present, so hopefully something good will come of it.
posted by spmcbride1201 at 3:34 PM on November 11, 2010
spmcbride1201: "Within this minor, I took two courses more focused in IT topics like networks and three courses in programming/databases (Ada, PHP, SQL)."
Oh, you poor soul. Well, two out of three ain't bad, and the good news is that Ada puts you in a better position for an entry level DoD contractor position than was first apparent. Coupled with what's more of an accelerated introduction to technologies (still not comfortable with calling it a Master's degree, but it's UoC's reputation on the line), you'll be fairly well prepared, and the UoC name will likely impress a few people.
Also, on the subject of which open source project to contribute to, I suggest you look at the software you use right now for candidates, and take a look at their open bugs list until you find one that makes you scream "arg, I hate when it does that!" Or if you already have one on mind, report it and figure out how to fix it.
posted by pwnguin at 5:11 PM on November 11, 2010
Oh, you poor soul. Well, two out of three ain't bad, and the good news is that Ada puts you in a better position for an entry level DoD contractor position than was first apparent. Coupled with what's more of an accelerated introduction to technologies (still not comfortable with calling it a Master's degree, but it's UoC's reputation on the line), you'll be fairly well prepared, and the UoC name will likely impress a few people.
Also, on the subject of which open source project to contribute to, I suggest you look at the software you use right now for candidates, and take a look at their open bugs list until you find one that makes you scream "arg, I hate when it does that!" Or if you already have one on mind, report it and figure out how to fix it.
posted by pwnguin at 5:11 PM on November 11, 2010
**AugustWest – “I would also consider other government work such as with the CIA. A USMA grad with fluent foreign language skills meets a lot of needs at the agency. As for coding, I would find something you want to code and start doing it. You certainly sound like a self starter and you will learn a lot about coding and your passion for doing it.”My friends who are analysts tell me processing can take about 2-2.5 years (seriously) from the day you apply to the day you are sworn in.
Response: Unfortunately there are very few intelligence opportunities in Chicago, and I will be located here until at least 2013 when my wife graduates from medical school. Ironically, business intelligence positions often require a degree in Computer Science as well due to data mining/warehousing.
So feel free to apply now.
posted by 630 at 12:29 PM on November 12, 2010
lot's of good advice; i'll add a couple of suggestions:
read Crosstalk , the Journal of Defense Software Engineering.
The current issue has an interview with Grady Booch, and all the back issues are online. For example, you prolly know that Ada was supposed to be the language of the future for the DOD.
That didn't quite work out. Here's an article that touches on that and talks about criteria for choosing a language: SEPR and Programming Language Selection
If you do get involved in an open source project, you might focus on those with embedded processors, such unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned all-terrain vehicles, sensor arrays, etc.
You might also learn about the SEI (at CMU), and CMM, PSP. Extreme programming and Agile practices can be seen as a response to the CMM school of software engineering.
posted by at at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2010
read Crosstalk , the Journal of Defense Software Engineering.
The current issue has an interview with Grady Booch, and all the back issues are online. For example, you prolly know that Ada was supposed to be the language of the future for the DOD.
That didn't quite work out. Here's an article that touches on that and talks about criteria for choosing a language: SEPR and Programming Language Selection
If you do get involved in an open source project, you might focus on those with embedded processors, such unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned all-terrain vehicles, sensor arrays, etc.
You might also learn about the SEI (at CMU), and CMM, PSP. Extreme programming and Agile practices can be seen as a response to the CMM school of software engineering.
posted by at at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think so. At very least it's one path you don't like that you're not taking. When you're unemployed, there's always somebody around to say, "hey, don't complain, just take ANY job." But they aren't responsible for your sanity / your family / the rest of your career.
2.) Do you think that Software Engineering could actually be a good fit for me based off this post?
Not really much here to indicate that Software Engineering would be a good fit. In fact I would suggest that your experience with computers is a much better fit for a career in IT.
This is coming from someone who started out in Computer Science and should have stuck with IT -- you might want to interview some Software Engineering counselors at a couple local universities or colleges if you're able. I should have listened to mine. They will look at your background and give you really good advice.
I would also suggest that you look in areas surrounding Chicago for not-so-normal jobs. Walk into as many small computer shops as possible and ask for information or advice on your career.
3.) How should I go about getting a shot at an IT internship, preferably in Software Engineering? How else can I figure out if this would be a good career for me?
Ideas: Find people who do it, interview them. Find people who teach it, interview them. Find people who quit it, ask them why. Then do the same for a couple peripheral areas (like IT support) that you're interested in.
No idea about the internship, except to say that you might be more employable than you think.
4.) Do you think this professional Masters in CS at U of Chicago could be a good fit for me? http://masters.cs.uchicago.edu/
Hm, something odd here...you're mentioning CS, software engineering, and IT. These things, in my mind, seem a bit more disparate...anyway, go ask a counselor. That'll get you good advice.
5.) Do you think that software would actually have a more healthy work life balance than business or finance?
There are many, many people in all three of those areas that have a healthy work/life balance. If you struggle with that balance on a personal level, sure, be concerned. Get help. But I think you might want to evaluate this concern on a job-by-job basis.
Hope that helps...good luck!
posted by circular at 9:31 AM on November 11, 2010