Friend needs divorce help ASAP
March 11, 2010 8:58 PM Subscribe
Washington State YANAL...A friend's husband just told her he wants a divorce (because he has a new girlfriend). She wants to stay married, he doesn't. He just cut off her credit cards. They have been married 20 years and have an older teenage kid. He told her to go find a job so she can support herself. She has never worked in her entire life.
Her husband makes about $120k per year. She is definitely in panic mode. Obviously she needs a lawyer. She has no money for a lawyer and says her husband wants them to come to some sort of financial agreement between the two of them (I know--bad idea for her). What advice can I give her? A friend got divorced in California and made haul (she got the house, alimony, four years of college paid, etc). I don't know what the divorce laws are like in Washington state so any info would be appreciated. Can she get a lawyer and have the husband pay? Is there such thing as alimoney/spousal support in this state? Does anyone know of a good divorce lawyer in the Seattle area (the more pit-bull like, the better IMHO).
Her husband makes about $120k per year. She is definitely in panic mode. Obviously she needs a lawyer. She has no money for a lawyer and says her husband wants them to come to some sort of financial agreement between the two of them (I know--bad idea for her). What advice can I give her? A friend got divorced in California and made haul (she got the house, alimony, four years of college paid, etc). I don't know what the divorce laws are like in Washington state so any info would be appreciated. Can she get a lawyer and have the husband pay? Is there such thing as alimoney/spousal support in this state? Does anyone know of a good divorce lawyer in the Seattle area (the more pit-bull like, the better IMHO).
This is not a statement of law or advice. I've heard some battle stories about family law in a WHOLLY DIFFERENT state from a very experienced, barracuda family lawyer. In many of this attorney's cases, the nonworking spouse has received court-ordered temporary spousal support during the divorce proceedings (while longer term support is being argued). Not negotiated: court ordered. The process by which assets are distributed is often called "equitable distribution" and in general, a nonworking spouse is given credit for raising children, keeping house, participation in a family business if applicable, or other valued contributions. Your friend needs a lawyer, who will have seen this stuff again, and again, and again. I am not trying to pigeonhole your friend, just to explain that the lawyers will have seen cases like this and know just how to handle them (including how to arrange the matter of the bill) - so no need to panic on that account.
Unfortunately, I can't give anything more than that friendly encouragement to not pass go, no phone a(nother) friend, etc. - find a lawyer and make an appointment. Unfortunately, I can't back that up with a referral.
posted by bunnycup at 9:14 PM on March 11, 2010
Unfortunately, I can't give anything more than that friendly encouragement to not pass go, no phone a(nother) friend, etc. - find a lawyer and make an appointment. Unfortunately, I can't back that up with a referral.
posted by bunnycup at 9:14 PM on March 11, 2010
Wow. Nthing "needs a lawyer". The guy has some chutzpah.
IANAL. IAAdivorcé.
-She- stays in the house. If anyone leaves, he does. Make sure she doesn't leave.
-She- takes the paperwork (in California, at least, the form of a divorce is a lawsuit, and you reply to it in that form) to -her lawyer- and agrees to NOTHING without consulting him/her. If she finds herself signing her name to anything she should STOP until her lawyer checks it out.
She should also get online now now now and find resources for women who are being dumped. They exist, I seen 'em. Google "divorce resources washington". Please do not delay in that.
posted by jet_silver at 9:27 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
IANAL. IAAdivorcé.
-She- stays in the house. If anyone leaves, he does. Make sure she doesn't leave.
-She- takes the paperwork (in California, at least, the form of a divorce is a lawsuit, and you reply to it in that form) to -her lawyer- and agrees to NOTHING without consulting him/her. If she finds herself signing her name to anything she should STOP until her lawyer checks it out.
She should also get online now now now and find resources for women who are being dumped. They exist, I seen 'em. Google "divorce resources washington". Please do not delay in that.
posted by jet_silver at 9:27 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Washington is a community property state if that assuages your fears any. I can't imagine, as bunnycup says, that this isn't something lawyers haven't seen before.
Seattle Magazine puts out a list of best lawyers every year sorted by area of practice (I can't seem to link the section directly but what she wants is family law). There's also this Super Lawyers site that's put out by WA Law and Politics. If she needs general advice on how to find a lawyer here's what the Mefi wiki says. King County Bar Association also holds a family law clinic on Monday evenings from 6:45 to 9:00 and has a lawyer referral line. Best of luck to your friend, that's a shitty thing to have sprung on her.
posted by calistasm at 9:34 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Seattle Magazine puts out a list of best lawyers every year sorted by area of practice (I can't seem to link the section directly but what she wants is family law). There's also this Super Lawyers site that's put out by WA Law and Politics. If she needs general advice on how to find a lawyer here's what the Mefi wiki says. King County Bar Association also holds a family law clinic on Monday evenings from 6:45 to 9:00 and has a lawyer referral line. Best of luck to your friend, that's a shitty thing to have sprung on her.
posted by calistasm at 9:34 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
The American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, Washington State Chapter.
Upper left, click "Find a Lawyer."
If you end up not being able to afford the first lawyer you meet with, then ask them for a referral.
She should sign nothing and meet with an attorney tomorrow. I mean tomorrow. No waiting, the first lawyer you can get from that group. He's cutting off her ability to feed herself. He'll have to be stopped. Now.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:42 PM on March 11, 2010
Upper left, click "Find a Lawyer."
If you end up not being able to afford the first lawyer you meet with, then ask them for a referral.
She should sign nothing and meet with an attorney tomorrow. I mean tomorrow. No waiting, the first lawyer you can get from that group. He's cutting off her ability to feed herself. He'll have to be stopped. Now.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:42 PM on March 11, 2010
I am not a Washington State Lawyer or a family lawyer, but I promise you she is not the first person whose spouse has cut off all of their funds. Go to a lawyer, explain the situation, I'm almost positive they will be able to work something out. And they may be able to help her regain access to THEIR money.
And to reiterate the above she should do NOTHING without going to an attorney. And yes first thing tomorrow morning.
posted by whoaali at 9:56 PM on March 11, 2010
And to reiterate the above she should do NOTHING without going to an attorney. And yes first thing tomorrow morning.
posted by whoaali at 9:56 PM on March 11, 2010
Yeah, WA is a community property state. IANAL, but as I understand it, since they've been married for a long time, most of their stuff is probably part of that community property— she has exactly as much right to it as he does. Definitely get a lawyer.
posted by hattifattener at 10:00 PM on March 11, 2010
posted by hattifattener at 10:00 PM on March 11, 2010
Holy crap, this sounds horrible.
I don't know how pitbullish, as we were negotiating our prenup, not our divorce, but we really liked my lawyer, Cynthia Buhr from Spencer Anderson Buhr. Offices downtown. I think I found their office via AskMeFi. His lawyer was John Llewellyn who we also liked a lot; office in West Seattle.
Both very knowledgeable, user-centered, pleasant to deal with -- again, in our less-urgent situation. But I think they'd probably both have teeth if needed.
Good luck.
posted by librarina at 10:13 PM on March 11, 2010
I don't know how pitbullish, as we were negotiating our prenup, not our divorce, but we really liked my lawyer, Cynthia Buhr from Spencer Anderson Buhr. Offices downtown. I think I found their office via AskMeFi. His lawyer was John Llewellyn who we also liked a lot; office in West Seattle.
Both very knowledgeable, user-centered, pleasant to deal with -- again, in our less-urgent situation. But I think they'd probably both have teeth if needed.
Good luck.
posted by librarina at 10:13 PM on March 11, 2010
She should sign nothing
She should sign nothing
She should sign nothing
She should not let this asshole talk her into anything before she talks to a lawyer.
posted by sallybrown at 10:18 PM on March 11, 2010 [4 favorites]
She should sign nothing
She should sign nothing
She should not let this asshole talk her into anything before she talks to a lawyer.
posted by sallybrown at 10:18 PM on March 11, 2010 [4 favorites]
She should have no communication with him at all without a lawyer. Heck, she shouldn't even breathe without a lawyer. Lawyer up - every which way.
So - her first move, and you can assist here, is to locate the best lawyer she can... that's research. Time is of the essence, but she should get as good a team on her side as possible. Good luck!
posted by VikingSword at 11:15 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
So - her first move, and you can assist here, is to locate the best lawyer she can... that's research. Time is of the essence, but she should get as good a team on her side as possible. Good luck!
posted by VikingSword at 11:15 PM on March 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, by all means lawyer up, but I am also a believer in just talking to people.
Does she have a brother? I know if this were my sister, brother-in-law would be in line for a very uncomfortable conversation. This did in fact happen to my sister and I (and my brother) paid a visit to mr. (now-ex) brother-in-law. He came correct without any legal fees.... he just had to be shown the error of his chosen path and the risks of continuing to walk it.
Seriously, don't underestimate the value of a family intervention. I don't think this guy understood how out-of-line he was until his two brothers-in-law were laying it out for him in no uncertain terms.
posted by three blind mice at 12:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
Does she have a brother? I know if this were my sister, brother-in-law would be in line for a very uncomfortable conversation. This did in fact happen to my sister and I (and my brother) paid a visit to mr. (now-ex) brother-in-law. He came correct without any legal fees.... he just had to be shown the error of his chosen path and the risks of continuing to walk it.
Seriously, don't underestimate the value of a family intervention. I don't think this guy understood how out-of-line he was until his two brothers-in-law were laying it out for him in no uncertain terms.
posted by three blind mice at 12:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
My parents live in Washington state - they went through something very similar a few years ago. She traded their house for her share of his retirement account and he had to pay her maintenance for an extended period.
posted by rotifer at 1:07 AM on March 12, 2010
posted by rotifer at 1:07 AM on March 12, 2010
"talking to people" is fucking horrible advice.
Get a lawyer, immediately. Do not talk to the other party; to do so is to be naive and sentimental. Marriages and divorces have nothing to do with naïveté or sentiment.
Or, at least, they ought not to.
posted by dfriedman at 3:00 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
Get a lawyer, immediately. Do not talk to the other party; to do so is to be naive and sentimental. Marriages and divorces have nothing to do with naïveté or sentiment.
Or, at least, they ought not to.
posted by dfriedman at 3:00 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
Do not negotiate without a lawyer. Do NOT let her desire to stay married or other emotional responses prevent her from getting a lawyer ASAP. She probably cannot see it right now, but he is not coming back, and I'd trust this jerk to not manipulate her via her emotional state into a very disadvantageous agreement.
She must stay in the house and you need to have an attorney ASAP, today, this morning if possible.
posted by maxwelton at 4:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
She must stay in the house and you need to have an attorney ASAP, today, this morning if possible.
posted by maxwelton at 4:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
Get a lawyer seems to be good advice. Get a job, too. Not because her husband said to, but to mitigate the possibility she won't get what she wants or needs from the divorce. It's something to do besides feel bad and a good way to meet people. The skills of finding and holding a job are worthy skills to have and to be able to pass on to young people. Good luck to her.
posted by eccnineten at 5:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by eccnineten at 5:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, by all means lawyer up, but I am also a believer in just talking to people.
Do not do this unless advised to do so by a lawyer. Admissions could be used against you. Just get the lawyer.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:02 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
Do not do this unless advised to do so by a lawyer. Admissions could be used against you. Just get the lawyer.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:02 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
DEFINITELY ignore the "just talk to people" advice. This isn't a squabble over the neighbor's lawnmowing habits. This is a struggle over hundreds of thousands of dollars, with a manipulative, cruel adversary who has surprise and prior planning on his side.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by IAmBroom at 7:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]
One thing she should look into for the future: She's been married to him for more than 10 years. He made more money than she did. His Social Security benefits are going to be bigger than hers. HOWEVER, when she files for Social Security, she can file to get benefits based off of HIS benefits. His will not be reduced. He will not be notified that she has done this. She will get a larger amount from Social Security. Please have her read the What Every Woman Should Know publication from the Social Security Administration. She needs to focus on pages 18 and 19. This publication helped my Mom.
posted by onhazier at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by onhazier at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Get a lawyer yesterday.
Also, the husband is a king sized idiot for admitting that he wants a divorce because he has a new girlfriend. That can be used against him in determining settlements.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:47 AM on March 12, 2010
Also, the husband is a king sized idiot for admitting that he wants a divorce because he has a new girlfriend. That can be used against him in determining settlements.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:47 AM on March 12, 2010
Confirming what onhazier just said. My mom receives much higher Social Security benefits because of my dad's earning history, despite the fact that they have been divorced for decades and he has been deceased for over ten years now. She felt bad about that initially, until she was reassured that her receiving those additional benefits in no way affects my dad's widow (I.E. - the woman my dad married after my parents divorced, and whom my mom genuinely likes and would not want to harm in any way).
posted by Lokheed at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2010
posted by Lokheed at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2010
He wants her to negotiate because he knows she's entitled to hella more than he's going to offer. (I'm assuming she's also far less sophisticated, legally, than he is, if he earns $120k and she's at home.)
Get a lawyer. The court will order him to support her during the divorce proceedings, barring something really bizarre. And with the new girlfriend, she may even get MORE support -- in my state, at least, she can also block the divorce for a hella long time and force the divorce to be "for cause" because he has a girlfriend, which results in a lot more money for the lawyers, but also for her. She will not be able to block the divorce indefinitely, but (at least in my state) she is in a VERY strong position to force him to give her an EXCELLENT settlement, possibly above and beyond what community property entitles her to, depending on the "for cause" divorce laws in Washington.
DO NOT leave the house. DO NOT immediately go find a job before talking to a lawyer. (If there are joint accounts, though, and things start getting ugly, talk to a lawyer and you may get advised to empty them or to go through some legal rigamarole that limits each spouse's access to it. But make sure she has enough of HIS money to buy food.) She may even be able to force him to pay for her to go to school so she can get a professional job IN ADDITION to having him support her in the fashion to which she is accustomed.
Lawyers see this all the time. Find a pitbull and get the hell down to his/her office. If he wants a no-fault divorce -- and one that isn't ugly, public, and excruciatingly drawn out, and ends him found at fault for having an affair -- he's going to pay and pay big.
(Also, a handful of states still have alienation of affection statutes, where she can sue the girlfriend for stealing her husband, and a number of states still make adultery a crime (usually misdemeanor). I don't know what Washington's laws are, but since he has a girlfriend, she has leverage out the wazoo.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:14 AM on March 12, 2010
Get a lawyer. The court will order him to support her during the divorce proceedings, barring something really bizarre. And with the new girlfriend, she may even get MORE support -- in my state, at least, she can also block the divorce for a hella long time and force the divorce to be "for cause" because he has a girlfriend, which results in a lot more money for the lawyers, but also for her. She will not be able to block the divorce indefinitely, but (at least in my state) she is in a VERY strong position to force him to give her an EXCELLENT settlement, possibly above and beyond what community property entitles her to, depending on the "for cause" divorce laws in Washington.
DO NOT leave the house. DO NOT immediately go find a job before talking to a lawyer. (If there are joint accounts, though, and things start getting ugly, talk to a lawyer and you may get advised to empty them or to go through some legal rigamarole that limits each spouse's access to it. But make sure she has enough of HIS money to buy food.) She may even be able to force him to pay for her to go to school so she can get a professional job IN ADDITION to having him support her in the fashion to which she is accustomed.
Lawyers see this all the time. Find a pitbull and get the hell down to his/her office. If he wants a no-fault divorce -- and one that isn't ugly, public, and excruciatingly drawn out, and ends him found at fault for having an affair -- he's going to pay and pay big.
(Also, a handful of states still have alienation of affection statutes, where she can sue the girlfriend for stealing her husband, and a number of states still make adultery a crime (usually misdemeanor). I don't know what Washington's laws are, but since he has a girlfriend, she has leverage out the wazoo.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:14 AM on March 12, 2010
Nthing all the "lawyer up" comments, but she is also probably in a state of utter emotional wreck; I know I was, when it happened to me. She probably can't think straight. She should have a therapist to talk to, stat. There are lots of "crisis lines" in WA state; by all means avail herself of these until she finds a more steady person to go to. The YWCA in WA is excellent and has lots of resources, including free or low-cost therapy, for women in exactly her situation.
posted by The otter lady at 9:34 AM on March 12, 2010
posted by The otter lady at 9:34 AM on March 12, 2010
You need to advise her that she shouldn't avoid or delay looking for an attorney because she has no money. A divorce attorney has surely seen this before, and can explain to your friend whether the husband can be ordered to pay for her attorney and otherwise advise her on ways to pay. Unequal distribution of wealth is unfortunately common in marriages where the parties operated according to traditional gender roles. A good divorce lawyer can explain how the law handles this disparity during a divorce.
This is all very complicated, but for now she needs to know three simple things:
1. Get a lawyer.
2. Do not sign anything unless her lawyer tells her to.
3. Do not speak to her husband. That's what their lawyers are for.
posted by Mavri at 10:03 AM on March 12, 2010
This is all very complicated, but for now she needs to know three simple things:
1. Get a lawyer.
2. Do not sign anything unless her lawyer tells her to.
3. Do not speak to her husband. That's what their lawyers are for.
posted by Mavri at 10:03 AM on March 12, 2010
IANAL, but in California, I was told that in the case of a long-term marriage (>7 years), the spouse who didn't make any money during the marriage is entitled to alimony basically forever.
posted by musofire at 12:53 PM on March 12, 2010
posted by musofire at 12:53 PM on March 12, 2010
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In Canada she would get half of everything they have, plus at least interim support until she can support herself. I don't have a clue what Washington state divorce laws are, but defiitely they'd give her a better deal than her soon to be ex husband will.
posted by orange swan at 9:10 PM on March 11, 2010 [3 favorites]