Help me make awesome Neopolitan pizza.
March 5, 2010 9:39 AM Subscribe
I'd like to learn to make this pizza at home.
I make a lot of pizza, and I'm proud to say I make it well. I can make Chicago-style stuffed, simple thin crust for quick family dinners, and an awesome grilled pizza outside in the summer. I make all my own sauce and dough. I can't, however, figure out how to get the right char on my crust, or even the texture of a good Neopolitan pizza no matter how many online tutorials I follow.
Is it possible to make a pizza like this in my home oven? I have a stone; actually two, one flat that my wife got me and one with a large lip I use for Chicago style pizzas. I don't mind using hard-to-get ingredients if that's what it takes, but I'm starting to think it's just not possible to do it right with my home oven. Has anyone had successes they could share?
I make a lot of pizza, and I'm proud to say I make it well. I can make Chicago-style stuffed, simple thin crust for quick family dinners, and an awesome grilled pizza outside in the summer. I make all my own sauce and dough. I can't, however, figure out how to get the right char on my crust, or even the texture of a good Neopolitan pizza no matter how many online tutorials I follow.
Is it possible to make a pizza like this in my home oven? I have a stone; actually two, one flat that my wife got me and one with a large lip I use for Chicago style pizzas. I don't mind using hard-to-get ingredients if that's what it takes, but I'm starting to think it's just not possible to do it right with my home oven. Has anyone had successes they could share?
That article says the oven gets to 900 degrees, which you're not going to get from a home oven. I think Jeff Varasano experimented a lot with breaking home ovens so that you could cook on the self-cleaning cycle, but if I recall that led to several fires and dead ovens. Anyway, Varasano's pizza is very good and here is a lot of info on making the style. My girlfriend I think follows that more or less and produces pretty good pizza in our home oven at 550 degrees but I think that char mostly comes from quick, really hot cooking.
posted by ghharr at 9:47 AM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ghharr at 9:47 AM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I have a stone, haven't used it since reading this.
posted by duckstab at 9:47 AM on March 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by duckstab at 9:47 AM on March 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Point of reference: we make pretty damn good pizza at home (pictures here) that's sort of ersatz Neapolitan - crisp, puffy, soft and steamy inside the yeast bubbles. We use a stone that holds a lot of thermal mass - a slab of sandstone almost the size of the oven floor and about two inches thick - and crank the oven as high as it goes, to 550 F. They are the good product of about as ideal of a pizza situation as you can get in an ordinary home oven. They still take 10-12 minutes to cook, and they're still nothing like really good Neapolitan pizza.
posted by peachfuzz at 9:52 AM on March 5, 2010
posted by peachfuzz at 9:52 AM on March 5, 2010
Response by poster: This is what I expected. I'm happy to know it's not my fault and can blame it on the oven. I'l give any linked tutorial a try, though. If it's a simple matter of a stand-alone pizza oven then I may go that route. Any other testamonials for or against these things?
As for the stone I planned to get a paving tile ala Alton Brown but she beat me to the punch. I love my wife and want to reinforce gifts, so I'll use the stone, even if just for biscuits and cookies.
posted by monkeymadness at 10:09 AM on March 5, 2010
As for the stone I planned to get a paving tile ala Alton Brown but she beat me to the punch. I love my wife and want to reinforce gifts, so I'll use the stone, even if just for biscuits and cookies.
posted by monkeymadness at 10:09 AM on March 5, 2010
Response by poster: duckstab: Awesome idea. I'm a little doubtful, but Heston Blumenthal is brilliant so I'll give it a try.
posted by monkeymadness at 10:28 AM on March 5, 2010
posted by monkeymadness at 10:28 AM on March 5, 2010
Response by poster: peachfuzz: That's about how mine turn out. Thanks for the link, and welcome to my feedlist :)
posted by monkeymadness at 10:30 AM on March 5, 2010
posted by monkeymadness at 10:30 AM on March 5, 2010
The stone is just as good as the quarry tiles AB recommends. The tiles are just cheaper.
I'd caution against a table-top pizza oven. They really don't seem to be much more than wide, flat toaster ovens. I don't know what kind of temperature they get up to but I doubt very much it's the 550 that a regular oven can get up to. Also seems like kind of a big uni-tasker.
You're going the right route with the stone in your oven, but I think you've hit the limitation of a home oven. I run a convection @ 550 and get a decent crust, but it's still nothing like what you'd get from a real pizzeria.
You could always build a brick oven in the back yard. It's on my big list of stuff to do before I die.
posted by bondcliff at 10:43 AM on March 5, 2010
I'd caution against a table-top pizza oven. They really don't seem to be much more than wide, flat toaster ovens. I don't know what kind of temperature they get up to but I doubt very much it's the 550 that a regular oven can get up to. Also seems like kind of a big uni-tasker.
You're going the right route with the stone in your oven, but I think you've hit the limitation of a home oven. I run a convection @ 550 and get a decent crust, but it's still nothing like what you'd get from a real pizzeria.
You could always build a brick oven in the back yard. It's on my big list of stuff to do before I die.
posted by bondcliff at 10:43 AM on March 5, 2010
The broiled pizza article has a link to Jeff Varasano's article. It will help you make great pizza. The problem with the home oven is the heat and that is a huge limitation. 550 degrees is not 800 to 1000. A charcoal grill makes a great pizza which tastes like a Brooklyn coal fired pizza but it is hard to get the perfect thin crust. You have to bake the crust, flip it dress it and finish it. Too thin and it falls apart on the flip or sticks. Coals go around the outside not underneath the pie so you need a big grill. Indoors on the stone the best way to cook the crust quickly is to make sure the stone is well pre-heated and use a very wet dough. Use some corn meal so that it won't stick to the peel. The enhanced heat transfer of the wet dough means you can get a pizza cooked in five to seven minutes at 550 with a very thin crust. The are some specialized outdoor pizza ovens which will get you to the right temps. I think my links are on another computer though.
posted by caddis at 10:48 AM on March 5, 2010
posted by caddis at 10:48 AM on March 5, 2010
Commercial oven
Expensive commercial oven (as if the last one wasn't)
The real deal
DIY (pdf)
DIY set to become commercial
another commercial oven
posted by caddis at 11:13 AM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Expensive commercial oven (as if the last one wasn't)
The real deal
DIY (pdf)
DIY set to become commercial
another commercial oven
posted by caddis at 11:13 AM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you have a gas stove, one trick I've found to getting charred and chewy Neapolitan-style pizza is to start with a pretty wet dough (I use about 1 part water to 2 parts flour), and when it's nearly done baking, throw it under the broiler for a minute to crisp the edges. Then (carefully!) slide it from the pan directly onto an eye on the stove. Crank that burner to full blast for a few seconds, and the bottom will have a lovely charr!
This takes a little bit of practice, but it works wonderfully. Just be sure that the dough isn't too thin or torn before trying to slide it onto the burner. Once you successfully crisp the crust over the flame, it's easy to slide the pan back under to move it to a cutting board.
I like this method better than the cast iron pan & broiler method because it lets you cook a single full-size pizza rather than several pies the size of your pan. If you go the pan & broiler route, you'll find out how exhausting it is to make each pizza individually, moving the pan back to the burner between each one so it stays hot enough.
Enjoy the pizza!
posted by jacob at 11:23 AM on March 5, 2010
This takes a little bit of practice, but it works wonderfully. Just be sure that the dough isn't too thin or torn before trying to slide it onto the burner. Once you successfully crisp the crust over the flame, it's easy to slide the pan back under to move it to a cutting board.
I like this method better than the cast iron pan & broiler method because it lets you cook a single full-size pizza rather than several pies the size of your pan. If you go the pan & broiler route, you'll find out how exhausting it is to make each pizza individually, moving the pan back to the burner between each one so it stays hot enough.
Enjoy the pizza!
posted by jacob at 11:23 AM on March 5, 2010
After enjoying a lot of pizzas in Italy, I spent years perfecting my homemade oven pizza (it's thin, and it's gooood). Note all this is to my preference. I like thin simple pizzas. I'll share what I know...
1. A home oven is fine but you must have a pizza stone... and not one of those round ones. You need a rectangular slab that covers enough rack to enable you to properly slide the pies in and out with a pizza peel.
2. The stone needs to be hot, so be sure it's in the oven during a good long preheat. (Some of the round stone methodology implies you build the pizza on the stone, then put it in. This never works. The stone functions to keep the bottom of the pie cool, not hot in that case!)
3. Oven is HOT. I go around 500 degrees.
4. Use corn meal on the peel to slide pizza in an out. It works like little ball bearings.
5. Dough - super important. I make mine with only these few things:
~ Flour (about 3 cups)
~ Water (added slowly, as much as need to make kneadable)
~ Olive oil (about 1 tablespoon)
~ Pinch salt
~ 2/3 packet yeast (started in some warm water)
Combine, knead until smooth (5 min), place in lightly oiled bowl, cover, let rize 30-40 minutes in warm place.
6. Cheese - I use quality mozzarella only. Note that pizzas ("real" pizzas anyway) do not use "yellow" cheeses. The yellow/orange appearance of a good pizza is the white cheese and sauce mixing. Some Parmesan to sprinkle on top is nice too.
7. Sauce - I keep it really simple - simple tomato sauce with some oregano added. Warm up.
8. Toppings - avoid piling on too high. They tend to fall off when using the peel into the oven.
9. Method -
Make dough, let rise
Make sauce, warm
Prep toppings (we brown ground It. sausage, use pepperoni, salami, mushrooms, peppers etc.)
Tear off hunk of risen dough about an orange size. Place on floured board and roll flat (or spin o'erhead if you can!)
Put a thin coat of olive oil on dough
Sprinkle corn meal on peel (not too much)
Fold dough in half 2x and move to peel, unfold
Ladle sauce to dough (not too much), leave 1/2" area without sauce (the crust!)
Add cheese (not too much - should be able to see sauce through cheese, say 50% coverage)
Add toppings (not too high)
Slide that puppy into the oven. Helps to loosen the whole thing with a couple quick shuffles of the peel, then once you know it's rolling, you can insert the peel into the oven and slip it off. Take a little practice.
Bakes for only 8-10 minutes.
Hope that works for you! It made me hungry!
posted by ecorrocio at 11:24 AM on March 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
1. A home oven is fine but you must have a pizza stone... and not one of those round ones. You need a rectangular slab that covers enough rack to enable you to properly slide the pies in and out with a pizza peel.
2. The stone needs to be hot, so be sure it's in the oven during a good long preheat. (Some of the round stone methodology implies you build the pizza on the stone, then put it in. This never works. The stone functions to keep the bottom of the pie cool, not hot in that case!)
3. Oven is HOT. I go around 500 degrees.
4. Use corn meal on the peel to slide pizza in an out. It works like little ball bearings.
5. Dough - super important. I make mine with only these few things:
~ Flour (about 3 cups)
~ Water (added slowly, as much as need to make kneadable)
~ Olive oil (about 1 tablespoon)
~ Pinch salt
~ 2/3 packet yeast (started in some warm water)
Combine, knead until smooth (5 min), place in lightly oiled bowl, cover, let rize 30-40 minutes in warm place.
6. Cheese - I use quality mozzarella only. Note that pizzas ("real" pizzas anyway) do not use "yellow" cheeses. The yellow/orange appearance of a good pizza is the white cheese and sauce mixing. Some Parmesan to sprinkle on top is nice too.
7. Sauce - I keep it really simple - simple tomato sauce with some oregano added. Warm up.
8. Toppings - avoid piling on too high. They tend to fall off when using the peel into the oven.
9. Method -
Make dough, let rise
Make sauce, warm
Prep toppings (we brown ground It. sausage, use pepperoni, salami, mushrooms, peppers etc.)
Tear off hunk of risen dough about an orange size. Place on floured board and roll flat (or spin o'erhead if you can!)
Put a thin coat of olive oil on dough
Sprinkle corn meal on peel (not too much)
Fold dough in half 2x and move to peel, unfold
Ladle sauce to dough (not too much), leave 1/2" area without sauce (the crust!)
Add cheese (not too much - should be able to see sauce through cheese, say 50% coverage)
Add toppings (not too high)
Slide that puppy into the oven. Helps to loosen the whole thing with a couple quick shuffles of the peel, then once you know it's rolling, you can insert the peel into the oven and slip it off. Take a little practice.
Bakes for only 8-10 minutes.
Hope that works for you! It made me hungry!
posted by ecorrocio at 11:24 AM on March 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
The usual 500-550*F that home ovens are limited by won't do it, the cast iron pan/broiler trick works but you can't really make enough pizza that way to feed more than one person. I'm relatively happy with the results from my oven on the self-clean cycle (latch cut, open door sensor rigged to stay closed) but it's a bit of work to get the temperature right -- I like the results around 750*F, I mostly end up with a burned mess any hotter than 800*F. You'll need an infrared thermometer to figure out how long it takes your oven to get hot enough.
Dough, sauce, and toppings are all up to personal preference. I like fresh mozzarella, 24-48 hour rest for dough made with 00 flour, and a sauce made from frozen (or fresh in the late summer) tomato puree from the san marzano tomatoes in my garden. Fresh oregano and chili flakes and you're golden.
posted by foodgeek at 2:40 PM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Dough, sauce, and toppings are all up to personal preference. I like fresh mozzarella, 24-48 hour rest for dough made with 00 flour, and a sauce made from frozen (or fresh in the late summer) tomato puree from the san marzano tomatoes in my garden. Fresh oregano and chili flakes and you're golden.
posted by foodgeek at 2:40 PM on March 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Good point. The dough is much better made the day before. I don't know why, but it is true.
Kudos to you for the latch cutting. I haven't been brave enough. Jeff V. trashed his inner window with a drop of tomato sauce that way. I think my wife would kill me. Now that the new GE fancy oven is two years old and showing its low quality I may have an opening though. $2k and plastic knobs. The blast furnace conditions I try to create for pizza have melted a couple of the burner knobs. Not good. It has an electronic thermostat so I can't even play with the calibration screw to get 600 or more degrees like you can do with some of the older ovens. I am heavily leaning towards the two stone oven, but we are entering years of high expenses (push a brand new BMW off the cliff each June) and my wife is probably quitting her job. I may try to replicate the pizza hacker; too damn bad he would rather hold out for a kit than publish a DIY manifesto. Most of the DIY entrepreneurs who both disclose and sell their ideas succeed as long as they keep the price right. Convenience and support sells. Anyway, temperature matters and I don't yet have it.
Above I mentioned the grill. The typical drill here is to put the dough right on the rack, flip it, load it with ingredients and finish, perhaps even cooking it a little on the other side before the ingredients go on, essentially a pre-baked crust. The other way is to put a stone on the rack. One of my links above sells special stones for this but a regular stone will do also, albeit without the top heat retaining stone. The problem is that it trashes the rack. I don't care if your rack is stainless steel it will rust at these temps which are particularly concentrated under the stone. I bet even cast iron rusts like crazy. If you have a Webber with easy access to replacement racks that might be different. The big green egg is also an option for blast furnace heat, but that is not cheap especially for a size large enough for a large pizza. There seem to be no cheap solutions. Someone could make some coin selling a cheap solution. My old grill is reaching its end. I may be willing to just blast it to death for pizza and get a new one for other uses. That is my cheapest solution right now. If anyone has other ideas it would be great to hear them - 750 degrees F, lots of stone for heat retention, less than $400 capital cost, and not too much work to operate.
posted by caddis at 5:40 PM on March 5, 2010
Kudos to you for the latch cutting. I haven't been brave enough. Jeff V. trashed his inner window with a drop of tomato sauce that way. I think my wife would kill me. Now that the new GE fancy oven is two years old and showing its low quality I may have an opening though. $2k and plastic knobs. The blast furnace conditions I try to create for pizza have melted a couple of the burner knobs. Not good. It has an electronic thermostat so I can't even play with the calibration screw to get 600 or more degrees like you can do with some of the older ovens. I am heavily leaning towards the two stone oven, but we are entering years of high expenses (push a brand new BMW off the cliff each June) and my wife is probably quitting her job. I may try to replicate the pizza hacker; too damn bad he would rather hold out for a kit than publish a DIY manifesto. Most of the DIY entrepreneurs who both disclose and sell their ideas succeed as long as they keep the price right. Convenience and support sells. Anyway, temperature matters and I don't yet have it.
Above I mentioned the grill. The typical drill here is to put the dough right on the rack, flip it, load it with ingredients and finish, perhaps even cooking it a little on the other side before the ingredients go on, essentially a pre-baked crust. The other way is to put a stone on the rack. One of my links above sells special stones for this but a regular stone will do also, albeit without the top heat retaining stone. The problem is that it trashes the rack. I don't care if your rack is stainless steel it will rust at these temps which are particularly concentrated under the stone. I bet even cast iron rusts like crazy. If you have a Webber with easy access to replacement racks that might be different. The big green egg is also an option for blast furnace heat, but that is not cheap especially for a size large enough for a large pizza. There seem to be no cheap solutions. Someone could make some coin selling a cheap solution. My old grill is reaching its end. I may be willing to just blast it to death for pizza and get a new one for other uses. That is my cheapest solution right now. If anyone has other ideas it would be great to hear them - 750 degrees F, lots of stone for heat retention, less than $400 capital cost, and not too much work to operate.
posted by caddis at 5:40 PM on March 5, 2010
I find too much emphasis on "thin", for Neopolitan pizza. I never loved pizza until I ate it in Naples, and then WHAM! Love at first bite. But it wasn't what I could call "thin". It was doughy and chewy, not crispy. Most pizza one finds in the States is more thin than real Napolitan pizza, to give a clearer idea. Even most NYC pizza wasn't really there, although it is generally the best pizza in the USA. The linked pizza looks wonderful, and the drizzle of olive oil is definitely one of those things I watched them doing in Naples.
Now I'm living in Switzerland, where the pizza is rather good, and frequently from wood-fired ovens. A surprising topping to try is some greens, called "rocket" in the UK, and "riccola" in Swiss-German (from which they get the name for those cough drops). Looks rather like dandelion leaves, and has a unique flavor. Just thought I'd share that. I love spinach on pizza, but rocket has much more flavor.
posted by Goofyy at 5:18 AM on March 7, 2010
Now I'm living in Switzerland, where the pizza is rather good, and frequently from wood-fired ovens. A surprising topping to try is some greens, called "rocket" in the UK, and "riccola" in Swiss-German (from which they get the name for those cough drops). Looks rather like dandelion leaves, and has a unique flavor. Just thought I'd share that. I love spinach on pizza, but rocket has much more flavor.
posted by Goofyy at 5:18 AM on March 7, 2010
Response by poster: Goofyy: That's the idea. I actually went out to a Neopolitan pizza place here in Denver the other day and it was thin and less charred than browned, basically what I make at home now.
posted by monkeymadness at 7:00 AM on March 7, 2010
posted by monkeymadness at 7:00 AM on March 7, 2010
A surprising topping to try is some greens, called "rocket" in the UK, and "riccola" in Swiss-German (from which they get the name for those cough drops). Looks rather like dandelion leaves, and has a unique flavor.
Ooh, now you're really making me hungry, Goofyy!
In the States we call it "arugula."
posted by Floydd at 10:57 AM on March 8, 2010
Ooh, now you're really making me hungry, Goofyy!
In the States we call it "arugula."
posted by Floydd at 10:57 AM on March 8, 2010
Here you go: Gas-flame outdoor artisan pizza oven, temps to 800°
posted by exphysicist345 at 7:40 PM on March 22, 2010
posted by exphysicist345 at 7:40 PM on March 22, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by peachfuzz at 9:46 AM on March 5, 2010