Plato wanted MERITOCRACY, woman!
February 18, 2010 3:39 PM Subscribe
I am realising that I drop classes when I decide that I hate them. I wonder—if I can, should I?
So, I'm having a little bit of a spat with one of my teachers. I don't respect her and I think she is a horrible teacher who doesn't believe in us. And she complains about normal things. And she announces facts that I know are wrong.
Anyway...I just checked and I have about a month left to decide if I want to withdraw with a W. And I came to realise...you know, I do an awful lot of dropping out of things I don't think I want to deal with.
This is a required class that would be rather easy to take next semester, but it would leave me with a 1.5 extra-hour-time block, which is just gross. So it made me think: Is this normal?
I like to think that it's OK not to force myself through unbearable slog (I could handle a hard class, or one with a crappy yet predictable teacher, but I seem to come across one of those arbitrary graders who have no idea what organisation is...pretty often), but should I just stick it out through a class I don't mind, except for the arrogant, crazy teacher?
Side note: As of now, I just got a "0" on the first important grade that she said wouldn't be graded; I emailed her and she wasn't into changing it. This is a public speaking class, and she also believes that anything that has the slightest whiff of "interest" or "specialisation" is "too technical". I am pretty sure I'm not going to do well. We are both too alike—we both are totally stubborn and think we are right.
("You can't write about Kant's philosophy! So what if your classmate read it and understood it! It's over their heads! Write about his background instead! Or Plato, since he was a major proponent of democracy!") I admit...I just can't get over the Plato thing.
So, have you guys consistently quit things because you know you had some sort of way out? Or am I building a terrible character somehow?
So, I'm having a little bit of a spat with one of my teachers. I don't respect her and I think she is a horrible teacher who doesn't believe in us. And she complains about normal things. And she announces facts that I know are wrong.
Anyway...I just checked and I have about a month left to decide if I want to withdraw with a W. And I came to realise...you know, I do an awful lot of dropping out of things I don't think I want to deal with.
This is a required class that would be rather easy to take next semester, but it would leave me with a 1.5 extra-hour-time block, which is just gross. So it made me think: Is this normal?
I like to think that it's OK not to force myself through unbearable slog (I could handle a hard class, or one with a crappy yet predictable teacher, but I seem to come across one of those arbitrary graders who have no idea what organisation is...pretty often), but should I just stick it out through a class I don't mind, except for the arrogant, crazy teacher?
Side note: As of now, I just got a "0" on the first important grade that she said wouldn't be graded; I emailed her and she wasn't into changing it. This is a public speaking class, and she also believes that anything that has the slightest whiff of "interest" or "specialisation" is "too technical". I am pretty sure I'm not going to do well. We are both too alike—we both are totally stubborn and think we are right.
("You can't write about Kant's philosophy! So what if your classmate read it and understood it! It's over their heads! Write about his background instead! Or Plato, since he was a major proponent of democracy!") I admit...I just can't get over the Plato thing.
So, have you guys consistently quit things because you know you had some sort of way out? Or am I building a terrible character somehow?
I like to think that it's OK not to force myself through unbearable slog
Then you are not preparing yourself for life after college.
Honestly, if you think this:
I don't respect her and I think she is a horrible teacher who doesn't believe in us. And she complains about normal things. And she announces facts that I know are wrong.
is unique to University, I have several former bosses who I'd like to introduce you to. As it is much easier to drop a class than quit a job teaching yourself to go through the unbearable slog has merit.
posted by three blind mice at 3:47 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
Then you are not preparing yourself for life after college.
Honestly, if you think this:
I don't respect her and I think she is a horrible teacher who doesn't believe in us. And she complains about normal things. And she announces facts that I know are wrong.
is unique to University, I have several former bosses who I'd like to introduce you to. As it is much easier to drop a class than quit a job teaching yourself to go through the unbearable slog has merit.
posted by three blind mice at 3:47 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: If you are doing this a lot, the thing to consider is why you are putting yourself in bad situations to start with, not whether you should extricate yourself from them (the answer to the latter is usually yes). My motto as an undergrad (which I was given by a professor) was "Take the teacher, not the course." Before signing up for another course, if possible, talk to people who have taken that particular instructor to find out what they're like. I have delayed taking classes for a semester in order to take the right prof or took classes with less interesting course titles because I knew the instructor was great.
we both are totally stubborn and think we are right.
You also might consider how you feel about someone else (the instructor) who has this attitude and whether it is helpful for her and her interactions with others. Then consider how that applies to yourself.
Then you are not preparing yourself for life after college.
I think this is ridiculous. Yes, there will be times when you have to force yourself to do something you don't want to. This does not appear to be one of those times, so it cannot truly prepare you for an unavoidable slog. You know how people say there is always an easy way out? There is always a hard way out, too, but that does not automatically mean it is the correct course of action. Quite often the contrary is true.
posted by grouse at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
we both are totally stubborn and think we are right.
You also might consider how you feel about someone else (the instructor) who has this attitude and whether it is helpful for her and her interactions with others. Then consider how that applies to yourself.
Then you are not preparing yourself for life after college.
I think this is ridiculous. Yes, there will be times when you have to force yourself to do something you don't want to. This does not appear to be one of those times, so it cannot truly prepare you for an unavoidable slog. You know how people say there is always an easy way out? There is always a hard way out, too, but that does not automatically mean it is the correct course of action. Quite often the contrary is true.
posted by grouse at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
So, have you guys consistently quit things because you know you had some sort of way out? (Or am I building a terrible character somehow?)
You're not building a terrible character, but you are failing to develop your capacity for finding good in situations.
Situations are never purely bad and they are never purely good. Often times even the worst of circumstances can help you develop an important skill/etc.
This doesn't mean you have to stick out everything, but if you're consistently quitting things then you are likely missing out on some very good stuff by being unwilling to deal with the bad.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2010
You're not building a terrible character, but you are failing to develop your capacity for finding good in situations.
Situations are never purely bad and they are never purely good. Often times even the worst of circumstances can help you develop an important skill/etc.
This doesn't mean you have to stick out everything, but if you're consistently quitting things then you are likely missing out on some very good stuff by being unwilling to deal with the bad.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2010
So, I'm having a little bit of a spat with one of my teachers. I don't respect her and I think she is a horrible teacher who doesn't believe in us. And she complains about normal things. And she announces facts that I know are wrong.
If this is the case, then no, there is no reason to stay in the class.
And I came to realise...you know, I do an awful lot of dropping out of things I don't think I want to deal with.
Here's the deal: there are very, very few perfect teachers out there. If you are a smart student with high standards, then you will be able to find fault with any teacher that you encounter, and thus be inclined to decide that none of them are worth dealing with. Part of life is, if you'll forgive the cliched, how to make lemonade when you're given lemons - including a lemon of a teacher. This doesn't mean that you have to suffer through a truly horrible teacher. But, in some cases, figuring out how to still learn despite a less-than-perfect teacher is a valuable lesson in itself.
posted by googly at 3:53 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
If this is the case, then no, there is no reason to stay in the class.
And I came to realise...you know, I do an awful lot of dropping out of things I don't think I want to deal with.
Here's the deal: there are very, very few perfect teachers out there. If you are a smart student with high standards, then you will be able to find fault with any teacher that you encounter, and thus be inclined to decide that none of them are worth dealing with. Part of life is, if you'll forgive the cliched, how to make lemonade when you're given lemons - including a lemon of a teacher. This doesn't mean that you have to suffer through a truly horrible teacher. But, in some cases, figuring out how to still learn despite a less-than-perfect teacher is a valuable lesson in itself.
posted by googly at 3:53 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I like to think that it's OK not to force myself through unbearable slog
Depends what kind of future you fancy for yourself. If your long range plan is to play to the SYSTEM, accept the Kafka-esque bullshit of various organizations as you slowly, inexorably build your career, then by all means slog, slog, slog, and think of it as necessary conditioning. Because it is.
The downside of this approach is that you might go mad or suicidal with boredom and frustration, or maybe just slowly become a cynical, boring, vindictive, nasty person.
Myself, I've been a calculated quitter my entire life and it's gotten me to exactly where I am right now: mostly broke but also mostly healthy and sane (I think) and, for what it's worth, sitting within a hundred yards of a beach on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. I think I'll go for a swim.
posted by philip-random at 3:56 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
Depends what kind of future you fancy for yourself. If your long range plan is to play to the SYSTEM, accept the Kafka-esque bullshit of various organizations as you slowly, inexorably build your career, then by all means slog, slog, slog, and think of it as necessary conditioning. Because it is.
The downside of this approach is that you might go mad or suicidal with boredom and frustration, or maybe just slowly become a cynical, boring, vindictive, nasty person.
Myself, I've been a calculated quitter my entire life and it's gotten me to exactly where I am right now: mostly broke but also mostly healthy and sane (I think) and, for what it's worth, sitting within a hundred yards of a beach on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. I think I'll go for a swim.
posted by philip-random at 3:56 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
There are many, many things in life that you can only accomplish if you have the ability to do things you think are stupid, mundane, and pointless while you're paying your dues. There are things in life that you can only get from people who are dumb, arrogant, and stubborn, and you won't get those things if you can't deal with those people.
Pride can help you or hurt you. Only you can decide if, for you, pride outweighs all these other things. If it's the latter, you may end up working for yourself doing something brilliant (a few people do that), or you may end up living with your parents at 35 because none of the jobs you're qualified for have ever been good enough for you, and you've never paid your dues and worked your way up (a few people do that too).
posted by Ashley801 at 3:57 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Pride can help you or hurt you. Only you can decide if, for you, pride outweighs all these other things. If it's the latter, you may end up working for yourself doing something brilliant (a few people do that), or you may end up living with your parents at 35 because none of the jobs you're qualified for have ever been good enough for you, and you've never paid your dues and worked your way up (a few people do that too).
posted by Ashley801 at 3:57 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm going to agree with three blind mice and pose the following question: What is the common denominator in these "unbearable" classes?
posted by entropicamericana at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I were you, I'd sit through it. You may not like the next teacher you get any better. If it was an elective, I'd say drop it.
Class is almost always a terribly inefficient way to learn about anything, I think you need to lower your expectations. The point is to slog through to get the credit. I say this being all but dissertation and having sat through innumerable classes I felt were wastes of my time.
Generally speaking arguing with professors about grades or pedagogical matters isn't a great idea either.
posted by pseudonick at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010
Class is almost always a terribly inefficient way to learn about anything, I think you need to lower your expectations. The point is to slog through to get the credit. I say this being all but dissertation and having sat through innumerable classes I felt were wastes of my time.
Generally speaking arguing with professors about grades or pedagogical matters isn't a great idea either.
posted by pseudonick at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: It's probably good for all of us to ask if we avoid things that could make us better people if we stick them out. Some things are worth slogging through for that reason. In my mind, though, a class that you dislike and are not treated with respect is not one of those things. You are paying for a particular product (the opportunity to study in an educationally healthy environment), and it's not a lack of virtue that asks for refund if the promised quality is not met. Similarly, I wouldn't consider it a point of virtue to keep a purchased car that didn't function as promised, simply because it might build character to tough it out.
Also, I would argue that you would have better opportunities for character development in a class environment that you enjoy. Virtue formation doesn't always have to be miserable.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010
Also, I would argue that you would have better opportunities for character development in a class environment that you enjoy. Virtue formation doesn't always have to be miserable.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:58 PM on February 18, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your answers so far.
I know I will have to deal with all kinds of people outside of college; that's why I feel a little like a whiny kid dropping out of classes I don't like. I've had not-so-good teachers in the past, of course, (and I do see some good in the class—the students make it good) but when my grade is on the line, I can't handle it! After this "0" today, I realised we are not going to get along...and she won't be a fair grader either.
I've always operated on the principle: "If you can get out of it, do it"...but I've just been doing it a lot (sometimes it's definitely been for the better though, I admit!)
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 3:59 PM on February 18, 2010
I know I will have to deal with all kinds of people outside of college; that's why I feel a little like a whiny kid dropping out of classes I don't like. I've had not-so-good teachers in the past, of course, (and I do see some good in the class—the students make it good) but when my grade is on the line, I can't handle it! After this "0" today, I realised we are not going to get along...and she won't be a fair grader either.
I've always operated on the principle: "If you can get out of it, do it"...but I've just been doing it a lot (sometimes it's definitely been for the better though, I admit!)
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 3:59 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: I think it's fine to drop a class that you really don't want to take, or that you feel will not go well.
However, your description here makes me wonder if more of the issue here is about you and your actions then you are letting on. Several parts of your story seem to elide the important bits in ways that allow you to maintain your narrative about this woman being a bad teacher. (which wrong facts? How did you get a zero on an assignment?) You make a slight concession to the two of you being too similar, but it sounds a bit, from your description, as if you might be doing more than your share of contributing to a not great situation. While things might be too far gone for you to stay in this class, you might want to consider that if you find yourself having to quit things frequently for reasons like this, that the constant in those situations is you. At some point you will likely have to confront that.
Good luck.
posted by OmieWise at 4:01 PM on February 18, 2010
However, your description here makes me wonder if more of the issue here is about you and your actions then you are letting on. Several parts of your story seem to elide the important bits in ways that allow you to maintain your narrative about this woman being a bad teacher. (which wrong facts? How did you get a zero on an assignment?) You make a slight concession to the two of you being too similar, but it sounds a bit, from your description, as if you might be doing more than your share of contributing to a not great situation. While things might be too far gone for you to stay in this class, you might want to consider that if you find yourself having to quit things frequently for reasons like this, that the constant in those situations is you. At some point you will likely have to confront that.
Good luck.
posted by OmieWise at 4:01 PM on February 18, 2010
I don't care if you are right or not, misinformed, or just ignorant. Drop the class and thank yourself later.
posted by 2legit2quit at 4:04 PM on February 18, 2010
posted by 2legit2quit at 4:04 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: It's seeming like you've got a big chip on your shoulder (deservedly or not) about this instructor. Under the circumstances, while you have identified an area of concern for yourself (sticking with things that you may not totally like/enjoy) it's not clear to me that this particular situation is your best test case.
If you are going to stick it out, I would suggest going and having a very polite, non-confrontational (i.e., none of this 'I think she sucks and is stupid' bit) conversation about this missed assessment, in person (this sort of thing is bad to handle by e-mail), perhaps phrased in terms of your trying to better understand her requirements. I'm troubled by the circumstance of 'she said it was going to be an ungraded assessment' vs. 'you got a zero on it'. Clearly, there was some miscommunication going on about the requirements of the course, and that would be critical to clear up if you have any hope of getting what you need to get out of the course.
posted by leahwrenn at 4:07 PM on February 18, 2010
If you are going to stick it out, I would suggest going and having a very polite, non-confrontational (i.e., none of this 'I think she sucks and is stupid' bit) conversation about this missed assessment, in person (this sort of thing is bad to handle by e-mail), perhaps phrased in terms of your trying to better understand her requirements. I'm troubled by the circumstance of 'she said it was going to be an ungraded assessment' vs. 'you got a zero on it'. Clearly, there was some miscommunication going on about the requirements of the course, and that would be critical to clear up if you have any hope of getting what you need to get out of the course.
posted by leahwrenn at 4:07 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: I've had not-so-good teachers in the past, of course, (and I do see some good in the class—the students make it good) but when my grade is on the line, I can't handle it! After this "0" today, I realised we are not going to get along...and she won't be a fair grader either.
I took this math class in the math department at Georgia Tech on differential equations. Having learned how to do Fourier and Laplace transforms in my engineering classes, I aced the first test. Got all the answers right.
But the arrogant troll who was teaching the class insisted I learn to solve these problems HIS way. "But I got the answers right - all of them - and you gave me a 10 (out of one hundred.)"
"I gave you ten points for spelling your name correctly," he says, "next time I will not be so generous." And then he threw my test across the table at me with a look of utter disdain.
I couldn't drop the class because I needed it and didn't want to stay in that hellhole of a school one day longer than I needed to. I slogged it out. I never saw the merit in learning to solve differential equations HIS way. Jackass.
A few years later I'm writing some code, my boss looks at it and says, "This isn't how I asked you to do it."
"Yes, but it works....," and before I could begin to explain how much more efficient my way was, I got that deja-vu feeling, "but I understand what you want and I'll be happy to do it like that."
So I learned something valuable from that math class even if it had nothing to do with differential equations.
posted by three blind mice at 4:31 PM on February 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
I took this math class in the math department at Georgia Tech on differential equations. Having learned how to do Fourier and Laplace transforms in my engineering classes, I aced the first test. Got all the answers right.
But the arrogant troll who was teaching the class insisted I learn to solve these problems HIS way. "But I got the answers right - all of them - and you gave me a 10 (out of one hundred.)"
"I gave you ten points for spelling your name correctly," he says, "next time I will not be so generous." And then he threw my test across the table at me with a look of utter disdain.
I couldn't drop the class because I needed it and didn't want to stay in that hellhole of a school one day longer than I needed to. I slogged it out. I never saw the merit in learning to solve differential equations HIS way. Jackass.
A few years later I'm writing some code, my boss looks at it and says, "This isn't how I asked you to do it."
"Yes, but it works....," and before I could begin to explain how much more efficient my way was, I got that deja-vu feeling, "but I understand what you want and I'll be happy to do it like that."
So I learned something valuable from that math class even if it had nothing to do with differential equations.
posted by three blind mice at 4:31 PM on February 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
From the transcript angle, you really need to think through your actions - they will have consequences beyond one unbearable semester. For instance, how many classes have you dropped? How many W's are showing up on your file? Grad schools may take interest if your transcript is peppered with little signs of what you call "not [forcing your]self through an unbearable slog" but they may see them as little signs of "can't follow through".
The option to withdraw from classes is great, but it should be reserved for special occasions.
p.s. keep in mind you are also paying tuition for whatever classes you're dropping out of.
posted by Think_Long at 4:43 PM on February 18, 2010
The option to withdraw from classes is great, but it should be reserved for special occasions.
p.s. keep in mind you are also paying tuition for whatever classes you're dropping out of.
posted by Think_Long at 4:43 PM on February 18, 2010
After this "0" today, I realised we are not going to get along...and she won't be a fair grader either.
Newsflash: your teacher's s job is not to recognise your true inner genius and grade you accordingly. Her job is to teach the course material, set reasonable assessment criteria, and grade your performance according to how well you meet those criteria.
You decided your teacher was stupid, you argued with her assessment criteria, and you decided to ignore her instructions and do your own thing. I'm not surprised she's given you a 0 grade. You chose not to fully participate in the learning opportunity she offered you.
Quit the class. But know that unless the rest of your class is also outraged about your teacher's pedagogic methods, the problem here is you.
posted by embrangled at 4:55 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
Newsflash: your teacher's s job is not to recognise your true inner genius and grade you accordingly. Her job is to teach the course material, set reasonable assessment criteria, and grade your performance according to how well you meet those criteria.
You decided your teacher was stupid, you argued with her assessment criteria, and you decided to ignore her instructions and do your own thing. I'm not surprised she's given you a 0 grade. You chose not to fully participate in the learning opportunity she offered you.
Quit the class. But know that unless the rest of your class is also outraged about your teacher's pedagogic methods, the problem here is you.
posted by embrangled at 4:55 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I think there are a few things going on here, both in this specific situation and generally.
First, you're in a Mickey Mouse class. Mickey Mouse classes are often a necessary evil. I mean, forchrissake, I had to take a health class in undergrad. Being required to take Mickey Mouse classes pretty much means you have to swallow your lumps and deal with being bored, because otherwise you're delaying your graduation needlessly, which (and I know based on your history here this is true) will delay what you really want to be doing, which is studying philosophy in graduate school. This is probably the unfortunate reality of your institution and situation. Sorry, but unless you want to massively overhaul the educational system (or bypass it by going to a non-traditional college), that's what you're in for.
Being in a Mickey Mouse class also usually means that your professors don't care who you are in your other classes. It means playing by their rules a little bit, gritting your teeth, and staying, more-or-less, invisible. You're making a mistake by picking a philosophical topic for a communications class. I understand that you're passionate about this, but you have to understand your audience, and you have to understand that there's a time and a place for everything. A bullshit public speaking class isn't that place. A bullshit public speaking class is where you roll your eyes at the professor, do the assignments according to instruction, and don't really think about it otherwise because it's a waste of your efforts and passions. Stop trying to prove people who don't care that you're smart. It's not going to work and they're just going to feel defensive about their own intelligence.
But sometimes, unfortunately, you can't win this kind of situation. The Mr. was once in a Mickey Mouse class on the history of feminism. Though he's a feminist, the professor decided that he was sexist, and gave him a zero for successfully arguing against affirmative action in an in-class debate (which she assigned him to do), which was half of his grade. In that situation, there's no use soldiering on: your goal, in these classes, is not (unfortunately) to learn, but to get through them with as little damage to your GPA as possible. I'm not advocating course shopping excessively--that is, dropping classes that seem "hard" (something I don't see you doing anyway)--I'm saying that if gritting your teeth to get through this class is going to net you a C or lower, it's not worth trying. Drop the class.
If you can still manage, say, a B, on the other hand, stay in it, because it's not worth your time or effort to repeat the class. Trust me; grad schools won't care if you get a B in some bullshit public speaking class. I got a "B" in "Communication in Action" my first semester of college, and it hasn't haunted me, or impacted my life, in any way.
Incidentally, I never dropped classes in college. There were a few where I bristled against the professor's pedagogy or teaching skills, but I always figured if I could get through the bullshit classes without too much drama, then I might as well just get through them. And a few times, I was genuinely surprised: I actually learned things from classes where I expected not to. That didn't happen often--but the classes I actually cared about, my major and honors courses, were more than stimulating enough that I didn't care about spending fifty minutes idly doodling in my notebooks a few times a week.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:57 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
First, you're in a Mickey Mouse class. Mickey Mouse classes are often a necessary evil. I mean, forchrissake, I had to take a health class in undergrad. Being required to take Mickey Mouse classes pretty much means you have to swallow your lumps and deal with being bored, because otherwise you're delaying your graduation needlessly, which (and I know based on your history here this is true) will delay what you really want to be doing, which is studying philosophy in graduate school. This is probably the unfortunate reality of your institution and situation. Sorry, but unless you want to massively overhaul the educational system (or bypass it by going to a non-traditional college), that's what you're in for.
Being in a Mickey Mouse class also usually means that your professors don't care who you are in your other classes. It means playing by their rules a little bit, gritting your teeth, and staying, more-or-less, invisible. You're making a mistake by picking a philosophical topic for a communications class. I understand that you're passionate about this, but you have to understand your audience, and you have to understand that there's a time and a place for everything. A bullshit public speaking class isn't that place. A bullshit public speaking class is where you roll your eyes at the professor, do the assignments according to instruction, and don't really think about it otherwise because it's a waste of your efforts and passions. Stop trying to prove people who don't care that you're smart. It's not going to work and they're just going to feel defensive about their own intelligence.
But sometimes, unfortunately, you can't win this kind of situation. The Mr. was once in a Mickey Mouse class on the history of feminism. Though he's a feminist, the professor decided that he was sexist, and gave him a zero for successfully arguing against affirmative action in an in-class debate (which she assigned him to do), which was half of his grade. In that situation, there's no use soldiering on: your goal, in these classes, is not (unfortunately) to learn, but to get through them with as little damage to your GPA as possible. I'm not advocating course shopping excessively--that is, dropping classes that seem "hard" (something I don't see you doing anyway)--I'm saying that if gritting your teeth to get through this class is going to net you a C or lower, it's not worth trying. Drop the class.
If you can still manage, say, a B, on the other hand, stay in it, because it's not worth your time or effort to repeat the class. Trust me; grad schools won't care if you get a B in some bullshit public speaking class. I got a "B" in "Communication in Action" my first semester of college, and it hasn't haunted me, or impacted my life, in any way.
Incidentally, I never dropped classes in college. There were a few where I bristled against the professor's pedagogy or teaching skills, but I always figured if I could get through the bullshit classes without too much drama, then I might as well just get through them. And a few times, I was genuinely surprised: I actually learned things from classes where I expected not to. That didn't happen often--but the classes I actually cared about, my major and honors courses, were more than stimulating enough that I didn't care about spending fifty minutes idly doodling in my notebooks a few times a week.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:57 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: philip-random: You're right. God, I didn't even think about that. I have a long, long way to go in a ( allegedly corrupted ) system of academia. I am always going to be the way I am, but I knew exactly how she was going to be the first day of class and tried to adjust accordingly. She knew I wanted to argue though; even if I was going along with everything she was saying. I just ask too many questions and teachers seem to hate that (why I almost failed high school, you know). Even when I'm just trying to understand what exactly it is they want, I seem to get something wrong, and they think I did it to be rebellious, when that was really the furthest from the truth.
I can refrain from "trying to get my own way", as embrangled seems to think, but I can never not walk around with the "I want to argue with you about this" aura 24/7, which I seem to have.
embrangled: Thanks for assuming the problem is entirely me without knowing the class or teacher at all.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 5:04 PM on February 18, 2010
I can refrain from "trying to get my own way", as embrangled seems to think, but I can never not walk around with the "I want to argue with you about this" aura 24/7, which I seem to have.
embrangled: Thanks for assuming the problem is entirely me without knowing the class or teacher at all.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 5:04 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: Previewing, are you sure your goal isn’t to have random strangers on the internet validate dropping a class again?
I have a different perspective on this so I am going to drop in a 2 cent opinion—just think about these possibilities lhude sing cuccu, and if they apply to you use it, if not, ignore. My perspective may be a bit different because 1) I used to teach university students, ranging from intro level classes to grad students and 2) when I was an undergrad, I had a hard time with intro level classes when I was an undergrad (although it just meant that I would not attend rather than drop the class).
Anyway, things that may apply to you/or could be solutions for you.
• If you are truly bored and the profs are giving you material that is really easy (or seems wrong to you or not good enough, etc), why aren’t you just signing up for higher level courses? You may be able to talk to a faculty member and get into a class, or just sign up. This may be your underlying problem and you aren’t being challenged and want more.
• Are you sure that your prof is wrong? Please don’t take this wrong, but first and second year student straight out of high school frequently think they already know everything; they may have done well in high school (where the ability to write 5 sentences=A), but it doesn’t mean that you have already mastered all the material in your discipline. Just ask yourself the question if this is possible (it may not apply, but just think about this possibility).
• If your prof is wrong, you may want to show her the references that contradict this (published, peer-reviewed journal articles). Ask your prof is she can help you explain the inconsistency in the material (in a polite way). New studies are published all the time; no one can keep up with all the information within his or her specialty. I would have been impressed if a student was able to find new data that showed something contrary to current information. Or, it could be that you are misinterpreting the info and she can show you why. Or maybe it is a field outside her area of expertise and she will realize that. Listening to psych profs explain biology principles was very painful when I was an undergrad, because….it was not their area
• You may be able to learn something by facing the classes you don’t like for a different reason. I am going to suggest trying to find a way to see common ground with your profs rather than “I already know everything, my prof is an idiot” etc. It is easy for you to just see a face in the front of the room and conclude it is easy and as a spectator, according to you, the person isn’t meeting your needs. Go talk to your prof (not email) and talk in a polite way (don’t complain about grades, or classroom policies). Rather, ask for suggestions as to how you can do better. You could say “I thought the policy was not to grade x. I want to do better in the future, can you tell me what to expect?” Your prof may explain or next time announce it (if I had a few students politely request that a review session would help them, I would do it – key words though are polite and provide a rationale Or, you may have missed it and understand why. Also, by interacting with one another as people, you may grow to understand or at least empathize with other people…..and that will get you beyond the point you are heading right now. This will help you for jobs in the future. See people as people (not the enemy). Negotiate. Cooperate.
• There is probably a lot more you can get from the class. Remember, you are working with people who have had many, many years working in a particular discipline. Go look up the research he or she has done. Ask the person questions about it (maybe after class). If you don’t like how something is presented, look up journal articles or even newspaper articles. Ask questions that tie these things together. Make that class into what you want, you are not a boat floating in the sea, with waves knocking you over. Start rowing.
posted by Wolfster at 5:04 PM on February 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
I have a different perspective on this so I am going to drop in a 2 cent opinion—just think about these possibilities lhude sing cuccu, and if they apply to you use it, if not, ignore. My perspective may be a bit different because 1) I used to teach university students, ranging from intro level classes to grad students and 2) when I was an undergrad, I had a hard time with intro level classes when I was an undergrad (although it just meant that I would not attend rather than drop the class).
Anyway, things that may apply to you/or could be solutions for you.
• If you are truly bored and the profs are giving you material that is really easy (or seems wrong to you or not good enough, etc), why aren’t you just signing up for higher level courses? You may be able to talk to a faculty member and get into a class, or just sign up. This may be your underlying problem and you aren’t being challenged and want more.
• Are you sure that your prof is wrong? Please don’t take this wrong, but first and second year student straight out of high school frequently think they already know everything; they may have done well in high school (where the ability to write 5 sentences=A), but it doesn’t mean that you have already mastered all the material in your discipline. Just ask yourself the question if this is possible (it may not apply, but just think about this possibility).
• If your prof is wrong, you may want to show her the references that contradict this (published, peer-reviewed journal articles). Ask your prof is she can help you explain the inconsistency in the material (in a polite way). New studies are published all the time; no one can keep up with all the information within his or her specialty. I would have been impressed if a student was able to find new data that showed something contrary to current information. Or, it could be that you are misinterpreting the info and she can show you why. Or maybe it is a field outside her area of expertise and she will realize that. Listening to psych profs explain biology principles was very painful when I was an undergrad, because….it was not their area
• You may be able to learn something by facing the classes you don’t like for a different reason. I am going to suggest trying to find a way to see common ground with your profs rather than “I already know everything, my prof is an idiot” etc. It is easy for you to just see a face in the front of the room and conclude it is easy and as a spectator, according to you, the person isn’t meeting your needs. Go talk to your prof (not email) and talk in a polite way (don’t complain about grades, or classroom policies). Rather, ask for suggestions as to how you can do better. You could say “I thought the policy was not to grade x. I want to do better in the future, can you tell me what to expect?” Your prof may explain or next time announce it (if I had a few students politely request that a review session would help them, I would do it – key words though are polite and provide a rationale Or, you may have missed it and understand why. Also, by interacting with one another as people, you may grow to understand or at least empathize with other people…..and that will get you beyond the point you are heading right now. This will help you for jobs in the future. See people as people (not the enemy). Negotiate. Cooperate.
• There is probably a lot more you can get from the class. Remember, you are working with people who have had many, many years working in a particular discipline. Go look up the research he or she has done. Ask the person questions about it (maybe after class). If you don’t like how something is presented, look up journal articles or even newspaper articles. Ask questions that tie these things together. Make that class into what you want, you are not a boat floating in the sea, with waves knocking you over. Start rowing.
posted by Wolfster at 5:04 PM on February 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: "Take the teacher, not the course."
This, times a million.
Public Speaking is the birdiest of bird courses. It should be the easiest A you get in your whole life. You need a prof who understands that.
Now, that said, it appears your prof may indeed understand that, and is just trying in her own dickish way to tell you that a) you really do not need to put so much effort into it at all, an b) there are other people in the class who are going to be bored to tears by Kant and would rather sit through something about ponies or ice cream (the first rule of Public Speaking: "tailor speeches to your audience").
posted by Sys Rq at 5:15 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
This, times a million.
Public Speaking is the birdiest of bird courses. It should be the easiest A you get in your whole life. You need a prof who understands that.
Now, that said, it appears your prof may indeed understand that, and is just trying in her own dickish way to tell you that a) you really do not need to put so much effort into it at all, an b) there are other people in the class who are going to be bored to tears by Kant and would rather sit through something about ponies or ice cream (the first rule of Public Speaking: "tailor speeches to your audience").
posted by Sys Rq at 5:15 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: but I knew exactly how she was going to be the first day of class and tried to adjust accordingly
Next time around, go with your gut instinct on the first day of class and drop the course immediately. At my school, I could drop a class and replace it with a new one in the first two weeks of the semester. I rearranged my schedule early in the semester once or twice for precisely this reason.
posted by crazycanuck at 5:19 PM on February 18, 2010
Next time around, go with your gut instinct on the first day of class and drop the course immediately. At my school, I could drop a class and replace it with a new one in the first two weeks of the semester. I rearranged my schedule early in the semester once or twice for precisely this reason.
posted by crazycanuck at 5:19 PM on February 18, 2010
Best answer: Is your question about dropping this specific communications class, or your ongoing habit of dropping classes? I assumed it was the latter when I originally answered. Dropping a class because you and the instructor are on entirely different planets is definitely an OK thing to do. Just remember that it's not consequence free.
Also, if you find you're having trouble with a lot of professors (if for instance, this is a semesterly occurrence) then you should probably go speak with your adviser because this may be a problem with your learning style or approach to study. Even if the profs are morons, it's pretty much your responsibility to perform to their expectations.
posted by Think_Long at 5:26 PM on February 18, 2010
Also, if you find you're having trouble with a lot of professors (if for instance, this is a semesterly occurrence) then you should probably go speak with your adviser because this may be a problem with your learning style or approach to study. Even if the profs are morons, it's pretty much your responsibility to perform to their expectations.
posted by Think_Long at 5:26 PM on February 18, 2010
I have this problem as an adult person. I quit a job recently that was totally unbearable, for me. And it was fine, I didn't like the job, I didn't need it, so I didn't do it any more. And I've done this, sounds a little like you. The big deal is, depending on what you want to do as an adult person, this may or may not be a tenable position for you to hold.
I spent my entire life with people telling me "Well you can get away with bending the rules NOW but that's not going to fly in ... junior high/high school/college/grad school/Real Life" I think a lot of people hear this. And here's the thing, to me. Everyone thinks it doesn't apply to them. My estimate is that 90% of the people who hear this refrain are getting good advice. There is going to be a time when someone in a position of power over them tells them "Stop fucking around, you have to play by my rules now" and you need to be someone who needs to know how to stop fucking around [in your case this would be someone who is not so grating to teachers and who can't seem to care to make nice when it would be helpful - I have no personal opinion on you generally but after reading a lot of your questions, there's a thread of dissatisfaction running through them]. Ten percent of the people who hear that message and who think, like everyone, that they know better, are right. They DO know better. They have a scheme, an angle, an ace in the hole, or a tolerance for uncertainty and they let their freak flag fly and they are hanging out on the beach with philip_random and go them!
Certain paths do not lend themselves to the freak flag thing, or you have to go through another 90/10 division. So, in most cases though not for all... Lots of corporate jobs make you do things you might not want to do. Academia most certainly does. Parenthood does. Sometimes marriage does. There are all sorts of socially beneficial things you may want to do that require putting up with someone like your [possible] dingbat teacher and if you are fundamentally incapable of finding ways to get along with those people, you will shut yourself off from opportunities because of your own personality problems.
I've been really lucky, I've gotten to pick my own path to an absurd degree through a combination of gumption, privilege and luck. That said, the job I quit? I really really wanted to do it, and I could not get over myself to make it work and that was sort of a bummer. Small in the grand scheme of things, but very apropos to your question about tolerance and character. Sorry this is so long, it's been on my mind for a while and this was a convenient outlet for spelling it all out.
posted by jessamyn at 5:48 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
I spent my entire life with people telling me "Well you can get away with bending the rules NOW but that's not going to fly in ... junior high/high school/college/grad school/Real Life" I think a lot of people hear this. And here's the thing, to me. Everyone thinks it doesn't apply to them. My estimate is that 90% of the people who hear this refrain are getting good advice. There is going to be a time when someone in a position of power over them tells them "Stop fucking around, you have to play by my rules now" and you need to be someone who needs to know how to stop fucking around [in your case this would be someone who is not so grating to teachers and who can't seem to care to make nice when it would be helpful - I have no personal opinion on you generally but after reading a lot of your questions, there's a thread of dissatisfaction running through them]. Ten percent of the people who hear that message and who think, like everyone, that they know better, are right. They DO know better. They have a scheme, an angle, an ace in the hole, or a tolerance for uncertainty and they let their freak flag fly and they are hanging out on the beach with philip_random and go them!
Certain paths do not lend themselves to the freak flag thing, or you have to go through another 90/10 division. So, in most cases though not for all... Lots of corporate jobs make you do things you might not want to do. Academia most certainly does. Parenthood does. Sometimes marriage does. There are all sorts of socially beneficial things you may want to do that require putting up with someone like your [possible] dingbat teacher and if you are fundamentally incapable of finding ways to get along with those people, you will shut yourself off from opportunities because of your own personality problems.
I've been really lucky, I've gotten to pick my own path to an absurd degree through a combination of gumption, privilege and luck. That said, the job I quit? I really really wanted to do it, and I could not get over myself to make it work and that was sort of a bummer. Small in the grand scheme of things, but very apropos to your question about tolerance and character. Sorry this is so long, it's been on my mind for a while and this was a convenient outlet for spelling it all out.
posted by jessamyn at 5:48 PM on February 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I love what jessamyn's saying about this, particularly this bit:
There are all sorts of socially beneficial things you may want to do that require putting up with someone like your [possible] dingbat teacher and if you are fundamentally incapable of finding ways to get along with those people, you will shut yourself off from opportunities because of your own personality problems.
This anecdote from my teaching career might be helpful to you or it might not be. My last semester of teaching, I taught a poetry writing class. Classes like these have, of course, a reputation for being Mickey Mouse classes so students expect to breeze through them without effort, but I was the type of teacher who actually hoped to teach my students some useful or at least interesting things--but they had to put some modicum of effort in for that to work.
I had two students, both of whom struggled on the first few assignments. One consistently wrote like he thought he was brilliant, but his writing (critical writing, not creative) was an incoherent mess. The other seemed pretty bright, too, but wasn't doing her assignments according to the instructions. Sadly, on the first couple assignments, my comments to her were probably harsher than they should have been, in part because I was so frustrated by her classmate. It shouldn't have happened, but it did; professors make mistakes, too.
She came to me and asked how she could improve so we met and discussed her papers; she put in a good-faith effort and ended up getting really, really good. The other student continued to write the same sort of stuff, when he handed his assignments in at all, never asked for help, and ultimately handed in a poem that mocked me and my teaching. I can't remember if he got a D or an F in that class, but it was a pretty terrible grade.
The student who improved was taking a bit of a leap of faith in talking to me about the situation. It could have been an unfixable situation--because those exist. She was already stressed, I was already stressed, but she gave it a try and ended up being one of the best students in the class. I think of her performance--and how she told me that she felt like she could understand poetry by the end better than she could at the beginning--and feel proud of both of us. The other student just buried himself deeper and deeper in a hole of frustration and unhappiness. I don't know, honestly, that either of us got anything out of the exchange.
So I just hope you can go into these situations with a willingness to learn if it presents itself. Even in Mickey Mouse classes, even in frustrating situations. Be open to that--and try asking your professors how you can fix the situation, rather than digging your heels in deeper--and take advantage of it as a learning opportunity. Who knows? You might learn something, but if you're determined not to at the beginning (and yes, students make those decisions from the outset, too), it just aint gonna happen.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:21 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
There are all sorts of socially beneficial things you may want to do that require putting up with someone like your [possible] dingbat teacher and if you are fundamentally incapable of finding ways to get along with those people, you will shut yourself off from opportunities because of your own personality problems.
This anecdote from my teaching career might be helpful to you or it might not be. My last semester of teaching, I taught a poetry writing class. Classes like these have, of course, a reputation for being Mickey Mouse classes so students expect to breeze through them without effort, but I was the type of teacher who actually hoped to teach my students some useful or at least interesting things--but they had to put some modicum of effort in for that to work.
I had two students, both of whom struggled on the first few assignments. One consistently wrote like he thought he was brilliant, but his writing (critical writing, not creative) was an incoherent mess. The other seemed pretty bright, too, but wasn't doing her assignments according to the instructions. Sadly, on the first couple assignments, my comments to her were probably harsher than they should have been, in part because I was so frustrated by her classmate. It shouldn't have happened, but it did; professors make mistakes, too.
She came to me and asked how she could improve so we met and discussed her papers; she put in a good-faith effort and ended up getting really, really good. The other student continued to write the same sort of stuff, when he handed his assignments in at all, never asked for help, and ultimately handed in a poem that mocked me and my teaching. I can't remember if he got a D or an F in that class, but it was a pretty terrible grade.
The student who improved was taking a bit of a leap of faith in talking to me about the situation. It could have been an unfixable situation--because those exist. She was already stressed, I was already stressed, but she gave it a try and ended up being one of the best students in the class. I think of her performance--and how she told me that she felt like she could understand poetry by the end better than she could at the beginning--and feel proud of both of us. The other student just buried himself deeper and deeper in a hole of frustration and unhappiness. I don't know, honestly, that either of us got anything out of the exchange.
So I just hope you can go into these situations with a willingness to learn if it presents itself. Even in Mickey Mouse classes, even in frustrating situations. Be open to that--and try asking your professors how you can fix the situation, rather than digging your heels in deeper--and take advantage of it as a learning opportunity. Who knows? You might learn something, but if you're determined not to at the beginning (and yes, students make those decisions from the outset, too), it just aint gonna happen.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:21 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: PBWK: That was kind of helpful. Since I tend to get on teachers' bad sides without meaning to, I think I have to take extra care to let them know I'm not trying to be a jerk.
I've decided to chug through unless it's clear I won't pass.
You guys beat sense into me every time.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 7:30 PM on February 18, 2010
I've decided to chug through unless it's clear I won't pass.
You guys beat sense into me every time.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 7:30 PM on February 18, 2010
Side note: I just got a "0" on the first important grade that she said wouldn't be graded
Wouldn't be graded? You submitted something or completed some sort of assignment that you thought wouldn't be graded, and it was? Is that assignment in the syllabus with a grade weighting next to it? If not, you can contest it. All gradable items must be listed in the syllabus. The Syllabus is your contract. If so: you're out of luck and deserve the 0.
I don't know how to read this question, frankly. I spent 10 years in higher education and only encountered a couple of instructors I had serious questions about. How are you finding so many terribly poor instructors? This confusion about the grade makes me wonder if you understand what's expected of you.
You say you're always asking questions and that is putting people off. Is it possible that you're a bully, using all these questions to intimidate people? Are you contributing to the issues you're presenting? Teachers are notoriously control-driven; it's possible you strike a particular nerve with instructors, making them feel out of control in your case. Perhaps that's what's poisoning your interactions.
I quit a few things in my life. Piano lessons, a stupid job, a ph.d program. Life is short, and you need to do what's best for yourself. Quitting things because it's not going your way will severely limit what you can do with your life; many things won't go your way. Looking something in the eyes and knowing you don't want to go in its direction? That's character building too.
posted by Hildegarde at 7:34 PM on February 18, 2010
Wouldn't be graded? You submitted something or completed some sort of assignment that you thought wouldn't be graded, and it was? Is that assignment in the syllabus with a grade weighting next to it? If not, you can contest it. All gradable items must be listed in the syllabus. The Syllabus is your contract. If so: you're out of luck and deserve the 0.
I don't know how to read this question, frankly. I spent 10 years in higher education and only encountered a couple of instructors I had serious questions about. How are you finding so many terribly poor instructors? This confusion about the grade makes me wonder if you understand what's expected of you.
You say you're always asking questions and that is putting people off. Is it possible that you're a bully, using all these questions to intimidate people? Are you contributing to the issues you're presenting? Teachers are notoriously control-driven; it's possible you strike a particular nerve with instructors, making them feel out of control in your case. Perhaps that's what's poisoning your interactions.
I quit a few things in my life. Piano lessons, a stupid job, a ph.d program. Life is short, and you need to do what's best for yourself. Quitting things because it's not going your way will severely limit what you can do with your life; many things won't go your way. Looking something in the eyes and knowing you don't want to go in its direction? That's character building too.
posted by Hildegarde at 7:34 PM on February 18, 2010
Hang in there -- even professors are just people and they all have their faults. By learning to get through courses/instructors that test your patience, you're building way more valuable skills than whatever the course is supposed to be teaching you. Whatever doesn't kill you, yadda yadda yadda. :-)
posted by tastybrains at 7:40 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by tastybrains at 7:40 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you like the coursework (aside from the teacher)? This site has some excellent articles on how to do well as a student. If you're routinely dropping out of classes, that's gotta be bad for your GPA and learning.
posted by sninctown at 8:16 PM on February 18, 2010
posted by sninctown at 8:16 PM on February 18, 2010
Misery is counterrevolutionary.
posted by unknowncommand at 9:12 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by unknowncommand at 9:12 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'll two more bits.
1) Learning how to deal with material that you don't like, taught by teachers you disagree with (and possibly don't respect), will be one of the best tools for getting through grad school. This is even true in philosophy (trust me).
2) Find a teacher that you like and that likes you then talk to him/her at times like these. It's not uncommon for a student to simply not understand why professors do what they do (and some professors have arbitrary, stupid rules). Having a mentor/confidant that you can ask for advice will be a big help. I can tell you, as an adjunct at a community college (teaching philosophy), that I would have no problem at all helping a student understand the process and figure out ways to do well.
Also, just as an aside, and with the understanding that I am by no means an authority on Plato, the SEP, a source I trust, has this to say about Plato's later work, The Laws:
And yet in Laws, the Athenian visitor proposes a detailed legislative framework for a city in which non-philosophers (people who have never heard of the forms, and have not been trained to understand them) are given considerable powers as rulers.
(Which is of course no indication that your teacher knows anything about relatively the relatively obscure dialogues, then again, she might.)
posted by oddman at 10:39 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Learning how to deal with material that you don't like, taught by teachers you disagree with (and possibly don't respect), will be one of the best tools for getting through grad school. This is even true in philosophy (trust me).
2) Find a teacher that you like and that likes you then talk to him/her at times like these. It's not uncommon for a student to simply not understand why professors do what they do (and some professors have arbitrary, stupid rules). Having a mentor/confidant that you can ask for advice will be a big help. I can tell you, as an adjunct at a community college (teaching philosophy), that I would have no problem at all helping a student understand the process and figure out ways to do well.
Also, just as an aside, and with the understanding that I am by no means an authority on Plato, the SEP, a source I trust, has this to say about Plato's later work, The Laws:
And yet in Laws, the Athenian visitor proposes a detailed legislative framework for a city in which non-philosophers (people who have never heard of the forms, and have not been trained to understand them) are given considerable powers as rulers.
(Which is of course no indication that your teacher knows anything about relatively the relatively obscure dialogues, then again, she might.)
posted by oddman at 10:39 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This is not building a terrible character. Don't waste your time in a class from which you're not going to learn anything (except, possibly, how to pander to a fool). It's much better to take the class next term from someone who might be able to teach you a thing or two, or at least teach you nothing without causing you undue stress and anger.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 3:43 PM on February 18, 2010