Where is the line between being civil and keeping your distance with a friend who you have lost respect for?
January 14, 2010 6:17 AM Subscribe
Where is the line between being civil and keeping your distance with a friend who you have lost respect for? Recently I have found out some things about a friend which have made me lose the respect I had for her. However, because she is part of a group of friends I hang out with, I still see her. And because I have not confronted her about the recent issues that have been brought to light (I don't feel it is my place to admonish her, these issues have got nothing to do with me) she is unaware that I feel differently towards her. I don't want to make it awkward and give her the cold shoulder, yet I want to keep my distance but still maintain a civil relationship, how would I do that?
At the very least, your friend should be told that you don't want to be around her and why. Assuming she actually did these things and they do meet the standard for loss of respect, people don't have the capacity to change if they don't know they are doing something wrong in the first place.
posted by troybob at 6:28 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by troybob at 6:28 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
By all means, say something. She might actually be going through a tough time and imagining she has the support or at least tolerance of the people who call themselves friends. She'd be better off if you said your piece and then skedaddled.
posted by Cuppatea at 6:29 AM on January 14, 2010
posted by Cuppatea at 6:29 AM on January 14, 2010
I guess it would depend on just how close your friendship is. If she is/was a GOOD friend -- one of your best friends, perhaps -- then I think you'd owe her some explanation (and the opportunity for her to tell her side of the story.) If you were only casual friends then I think you're on the right track with being civil, yet cool. Chances are she won't even notice the change in your demeanor. And that, actually, leads to another question. Do you WANT her to notice the change in your attitude towards her? Or are you just looking for a way of being around someone whom you no longer particularly like? What's your goal here? You can be civil and keep your distance simultaneously. Of course, if she or another of your friends specifically asks what's going on, you should tell the truth. "I found out about x, y, and z and, while -- for the sake of our mutual friends -- I'm not inclined to make a big deal out of it, it's not something I can overlook in terms of my feelings towards her."
posted by rhartong at 6:32 AM on January 14, 2010
posted by rhartong at 6:32 AM on January 14, 2010
(because seriously, if it has nothing to do with you, and is by your own admission not your place to say anything, you don't sound like you're actually her friend at all. Written as someone who has seen a lot of fair-weather "friends" run screaming recently, and is pretty thankful they jumped ship when they did.)
posted by Cuppatea at 6:32 AM on January 14, 2010
posted by Cuppatea at 6:32 AM on January 14, 2010
Saying something is not the same as admonishing. Taking her aside privately and saying "Hey, I heard something that made me uncomfortable, and I wanted to get your side of it" allows her the chance to admit or deny the truth of these stories. If she says they're not true, you can reevaluate what you've heard. If she 'fesses up, then you have the chance to say "I'm disappointed to hear that, and I need a little time apart to think about it."
Presuming guilt is unfair to your friend. And who knows? Even if true, it may be the kind of situation where more details come out later that help you take a more compassionate look at the situation. Give her the chance to explain and you leave your option for future friendship open in a way that simply retreating doesn't.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:36 AM on January 14, 2010 [10 favorites]
Presuming guilt is unfair to your friend. And who knows? Even if true, it may be the kind of situation where more details come out later that help you take a more compassionate look at the situation. Give her the chance to explain and you leave your option for future friendship open in a way that simply retreating doesn't.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:36 AM on January 14, 2010 [10 favorites]
I think it strongly depends on exactly what it is you found out that made you lose respect for her. What I mean is -- did she do something clearly and unequivocably illegal (i.e., shoplifting), did she do something that's shady and immoral, but still technically legal (i.e., went to a swingers' club) or did she do something that's a matter of opinion (i.e., she changed religion)?
Because I can see your discomfort if she did something illegal or dangerous, but...if it was some kind of perfectly-legal choice like "she switched political parties" or "she stopped being vegetarian", I'd be a bit taken aback if one of my friends permanently lost respect for me because of an opinion shift on my own part on a matter that is, ultimately, a personal choice. Real-life example: I just caught up with a childhood friend last night, and learned he is heavily into the whole 2012-prophecy crap, and he just found out that I'm no longer the good Catholic girl he remembered me being from when we were kids. And yet, part of the respect we have for each other involved each of us reacting to the other's news with no more than an eyebrow lift and a, "....uh, really?" a couple questions, and then a shrug and an, "...okay, well, if that works out for you, I'll just leave you to it..." and then a change of subject. If he'd started trying to convert me back to the fold or something, I'd have been very hurt.
This is not to say that if this is the kind of thing you're talking about, that you're wrong to react with some surprise in the short term; but ultimately, if it's something like this, your friend's choices are hers, and hopefully you can find a way to accept them.
Mind you, that kind of "acceptance" doesn't apply if you're talking about clearly and blatantly illegal activity, although even here I'd try to find out whether the stories are accurate. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Because I can see your discomfort if she did something illegal or dangerous, but...if it was some kind of perfectly-legal choice like "she switched political parties" or "she stopped being vegetarian", I'd be a bit taken aback if one of my friends permanently lost respect for me because of an opinion shift on my own part on a matter that is, ultimately, a personal choice. Real-life example: I just caught up with a childhood friend last night, and learned he is heavily into the whole 2012-prophecy crap, and he just found out that I'm no longer the good Catholic girl he remembered me being from when we were kids. And yet, part of the respect we have for each other involved each of us reacting to the other's news with no more than an eyebrow lift and a, "....uh, really?" a couple questions, and then a shrug and an, "...okay, well, if that works out for you, I'll just leave you to it..." and then a change of subject. If he'd started trying to convert me back to the fold or something, I'd have been very hurt.
This is not to say that if this is the kind of thing you're talking about, that you're wrong to react with some surprise in the short term; but ultimately, if it's something like this, your friend's choices are hers, and hopefully you can find a way to accept them.
Mind you, that kind of "acceptance" doesn't apply if you're talking about clearly and blatantly illegal activity, although even here I'd try to find out whether the stories are accurate. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
She needs to be told.
Any other course of action is the awkwardness which you say you want to avoid.
posted by fire&wings at 7:28 AM on January 14, 2010
Any other course of action is the awkwardness which you say you want to avoid.
posted by fire&wings at 7:28 AM on January 14, 2010
First thing, are you sure these things are true? You might not want to speak with her (depending on what we are talking about) but at the very least you want to be certain your sources are accurate.
Here to second and emphasize this comment by St. ALia. If whatever you've heard has made you want to cut off contact with this person, are you sure that wasn't the intent of the person who is spreading the rumor? I've seen one toxic member of a social group enjoy manipulating relationships between members by fabricating or greatly exaggerating damaging gossip.
If you're privy to objective facts like an arrest, an affair, academic cheating, etc., that's one thing (and it would be great to have more info), but if this is just based on hearsay, absolutely have an honest talk with your friend if she notices you've cooled off--or even before.
posted by availablelight at 7:30 AM on January 14, 2010
Here to second and emphasize this comment by St. ALia. If whatever you've heard has made you want to cut off contact with this person, are you sure that wasn't the intent of the person who is spreading the rumor? I've seen one toxic member of a social group enjoy manipulating relationships between members by fabricating or greatly exaggerating damaging gossip.
If you're privy to objective facts like an arrest, an affair, academic cheating, etc., that's one thing (and it would be great to have more info), but if this is just based on hearsay, absolutely have an honest talk with your friend if she notices you've cooled off--or even before.
posted by availablelight at 7:30 AM on January 14, 2010
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
I have no idea what your "friend" (you are clearly not her friend, so stop calling her that) did, but in the past, when I've heard someone use the language of "losing respect" for an acquaintance it was about something which was clearly none of that person's business.
posted by grouse at 7:36 AM on January 14, 2010 [11 favorites]
I have no idea what your "friend" (you are clearly not her friend, so stop calling her that) did, but in the past, when I've heard someone use the language of "losing respect" for an acquaintance it was about something which was clearly none of that person's business.
posted by grouse at 7:36 AM on January 14, 2010 [11 favorites]
Please, as others have said above, check to make sure that what you've heard is true. I have had horrible rumours spread about me in the past that have made others avoid my company. One woman had the good grace to actually talk to me about it, and she discovered that not only were the rumours not true, but we actually became better friends as a result.
Please don't ditch this person until you know the truth.
posted by LN at 7:42 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Please don't ditch this person until you know the truth.
posted by LN at 7:42 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
...when I've heard someone use the language of "losing respect" for an acquaintance it was about something which was clearly none of that person's business.
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Have you really lived such a virtuous life that none of your friends would feel any differently about you if they knew everything you've said or done?
As for approaching her... it really depends on whether or not whatever she did (or said? or wrote? or...sang?) actually affects you.
If one of my friends approached me and said "bingo, I heard you said/did/believe X, and as a result, I have less respect for you," then I think my response would be "Could you please step out of the way? There's a clock behind you, and I'm curious as to what time it is."
posted by bingo at 7:51 AM on January 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Have you really lived such a virtuous life that none of your friends would feel any differently about you if they knew everything you've said or done?
As for approaching her... it really depends on whether or not whatever she did (or said? or wrote? or...sang?) actually affects you.
If one of my friends approached me and said "bingo, I heard you said/did/believe X, and as a result, I have less respect for you," then I think my response would be "Could you please step out of the way? There's a clock behind you, and I'm curious as to what time it is."
posted by bingo at 7:51 AM on January 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
i'm going to go against the grain of the other advice given here and say that you may be totally justified in losing respect for your friend -- depending on the circumstances. but that does not give you the right to treat your former buddy unkindly.
in my experience, what people usually mean when they say this:
in essence, the cold-shoulderer wishes to punish the former friend by removing the kinder benefits of friendship, while maintaining the social obligations and pretense. and that is a really, really, crummy thing to do.
if you are uncomfortable/disrespectful (and -- perhaps -- rightly so) with regard to the behavior of your friend "that has come to light", i think you must either talk to him/her about it (as would a friend) or let it pass quietly (and effectively end the friendship).
posted by mr. remy at 7:56 AM on January 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
in my experience, what people usually mean when they say this:
I don't want to make it awkward and give her the cold shoulder, yet I want to keep my distance but still maintain a civil relationship, how would I do that?is that they wish to be casually dismissive, a little off-handedly curt, judgy, and aloft in the presence of their former friend, but without the former friend being given clued-in to why, or given any chance at explanation or redemption.
in essence, the cold-shoulderer wishes to punish the former friend by removing the kinder benefits of friendship, while maintaining the social obligations and pretense. and that is a really, really, crummy thing to do.
if you are uncomfortable/disrespectful (and -- perhaps -- rightly so) with regard to the behavior of your friend "that has come to light", i think you must either talk to him/her about it (as would a friend) or let it pass quietly (and effectively end the friendship).
posted by mr. remy at 7:56 AM on January 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
There are so many issues at play that we just don't know about so we can't help you answer this accurately, but everyone is right in pointing out that there is a test you can do given the variables that YOU know yourself. Here's a little equation
(I * C) / F = R
Where:
I = Information and the Nature of that Information
C = Degree of Certainty of that Information
F = Your Level of Friendship
R = Your Reaction
You'll notice that values of R decrease based on larger F values. Good friends, as noted above, deserve a smaller response - which is to say, the response they deserve is the least drastic or puts the lowest "burden" on you. ("Hey, buddy, what's up with your Prop 8 sticker on Facebook? or if the information is good, "Congratulations! I heard about your good news!" Remember, the lower R value just means that you don't have to go WILD with your reaction.) Whereas distant friends receive the most stark treatment in contrast - being cut off, having their birthdays forgotten, not really needing to hear much of their side of the story.
Similarly, the Information (I) will be subject to a multiplier based on the level of Certainty (C) you have given the provenance of this information. The smaller that multiplier is, the information loses weight and the force of the friendship takes over. For all values of Gossip use a negative integer. Read about it in the newspaper? Did they tell you themselves? That's a pretty high degree of certainty and therefore, your reaction can be suitably more drastic even in spite of a longstanding friendship. But you'll notice that a high F value and a high C value do nothing absent some information. If you are absolutely certain that one of your good friends [likes brussel spouts, reads the newspaper, sometimes sleeps too late in the morning] that pretty much guarantees that you don't need to go overboard.
That's why it is important to consider how important the Information is to you. We regularly react negatively or emotionally to things and situations we don't understand or haven't thought through. Someone got an abortion and you find that repugnant? Someone doesn't support gay marriage? Someone stopped speaking to a family member? Someone had an affair? There are a billion different values for I, and before you assign it a value, give yourself a little talking to and find out if it is really something that you fully understand and have a well-developed opinion on. Gut reactions are not good values of I.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:03 AM on January 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
(I * C) / F = R
Where:
I = Information and the Nature of that Information
C = Degree of Certainty of that Information
F = Your Level of Friendship
R = Your Reaction
You'll notice that values of R decrease based on larger F values. Good friends, as noted above, deserve a smaller response - which is to say, the response they deserve is the least drastic or puts the lowest "burden" on you. ("Hey, buddy, what's up with your Prop 8 sticker on Facebook? or if the information is good, "Congratulations! I heard about your good news!" Remember, the lower R value just means that you don't have to go WILD with your reaction.) Whereas distant friends receive the most stark treatment in contrast - being cut off, having their birthdays forgotten, not really needing to hear much of their side of the story.
Similarly, the Information (I) will be subject to a multiplier based on the level of Certainty (C) you have given the provenance of this information. The smaller that multiplier is, the information loses weight and the force of the friendship takes over. For all values of Gossip use a negative integer. Read about it in the newspaper? Did they tell you themselves? That's a pretty high degree of certainty and therefore, your reaction can be suitably more drastic even in spite of a longstanding friendship. But you'll notice that a high F value and a high C value do nothing absent some information. If you are absolutely certain that one of your good friends [likes brussel spouts, reads the newspaper, sometimes sleeps too late in the morning] that pretty much guarantees that you don't need to go overboard.
That's why it is important to consider how important the Information is to you. We regularly react negatively or emotionally to things and situations we don't understand or haven't thought through. Someone got an abortion and you find that repugnant? Someone doesn't support gay marriage? Someone stopped speaking to a family member? Someone had an affair? There are a billion different values for I, and before you assign it a value, give yourself a little talking to and find out if it is really something that you fully understand and have a well-developed opinion on. Gut reactions are not good values of I.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:03 AM on January 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
Of course, if she or another of your friends specifically asks what's going on, you should tell the truth.
Oh no. If she asks you, then yes, tell her. But if another person asks you? No. It's none of his business and not your place to be either spreading rumors or damaging someone's reputation.
...did she do something that's shady and immoral, but still technically legal (i.e., went to a swingers' club)...
That, of course, is subjective.
posted by Evangeline at 8:05 AM on January 14, 2010
Oh no. If she asks you, then yes, tell her. But if another person asks you? No. It's none of his business and not your place to be either spreading rumors or damaging someone's reputation.
...did she do something that's shady and immoral, but still technically legal (i.e., went to a swingers' club)...
That, of course, is subjective.
posted by Evangeline at 8:05 AM on January 14, 2010
Please be a friend first. If this news is grave matter of justice, safety, or well being, for her or someone else, then she deserves at least one session of "This is what I observed/heard/saw. This is why that concerns me. But I may have it wrong. Please tell me your side of it." Describe the behavior in objective terms and do not read your friend's mind.
Maybe it's a misunderstanding, but maybe your friend needs someone in her life who's willing to call BS on stuff she's doing. I value greatly the friends in my life who are willing to hurt my feelings for my own sake.
Sometimes a true friend might have to say, "I can't be around you while you are doing X. I still love you and will continue to (root/pray/have hopeful thoughts) for you. And when X is out of your life, I will be there to help you." What a blessing those friends are!
When I am confronted by someone for whom I have ill feelings and low respect, I have an opportunity to reflect on my own weaknesses and how they might inspire the same types of feelings in others around me. Many times I can identify seeds of the same poison affecting my own life. I am no better, only different, than any other person. It helps me a lot to say, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I."
And then, getting in touch with the sources of pain and dysfunction in my own life, I can connect with the same in others. And maybe I can help them. But sometimes it helps just to look dysfuntion in the eye and call it by name yet still love the tender heart of the person just beyond it.
posted by cross_impact at 8:09 AM on January 14, 2010
Maybe it's a misunderstanding, but maybe your friend needs someone in her life who's willing to call BS on stuff she's doing. I value greatly the friends in my life who are willing to hurt my feelings for my own sake.
Sometimes a true friend might have to say, "I can't be around you while you are doing X. I still love you and will continue to (root/pray/have hopeful thoughts) for you. And when X is out of your life, I will be there to help you." What a blessing those friends are!
When I am confronted by someone for whom I have ill feelings and low respect, I have an opportunity to reflect on my own weaknesses and how they might inspire the same types of feelings in others around me. Many times I can identify seeds of the same poison affecting my own life. I am no better, only different, than any other person. It helps me a lot to say, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I."
And then, getting in touch with the sources of pain and dysfunction in my own life, I can connect with the same in others. And maybe I can help them. But sometimes it helps just to look dysfuntion in the eye and call it by name yet still love the tender heart of the person just beyond it.
posted by cross_impact at 8:09 AM on January 14, 2010
As others have said, be sure you truly understand the full picture of what is going on.
Aside from that, consider: what do you really want to have happen?
Do you want her to not perceive that there's anything different about the way you respond to her? "Anon is such a nice person, but we're really just friends of friends; (s)he's not very talkative about anything personal, but Anon sure is pleasant, and I'm glad we go to the same parties."
Or do you want her to realize that something is up, but assume it's nothing relevant? "Anon has always seemed to be such a nice person, but has been a bit tight-lipped lately, I bet work is stressful in this down economy and it's too bad it's getting Anon down. It's not like I'm buddies with Anon enough to ask or talk about it, but I do wish him/her the best."
Or do you want her to know that you've cooled off towards her specifically, but assume it's not anything permanent or important? "Anon and I hang out with the same people, but I don't know her well enough to ask what I did to bug her so much; I know it's something because she used to be so friendly and interesting and now she's just staring past me and making polite conversation, but she talks to everyone else just fine. If it mattered, I bet she'd say something, so I'll just wait till the stick falls back out of her butt and go hang out with someone else."
Or do you want her to know that you have a problem with the specific thing she did? "Anon has been politely avoiding me ever since it came out that I cheated on my ex-husband; she's such a traditionalist, of course that bugs her." and now part two - do you want her to have any control over the situation? "agreeing to disagree" is very different from hostile disagreement, and if you ever talk about it, she is stuck on the receiving end of a cold shoulder, with nothing she can do about it.
And do you care how your other friends feel about her? Will you lose respect for that whole group of friends if they see you cooling off towards her, and just sort of shrug and continue loving her? Will she feel that not only are you distancing yourself from her, but that you're talking about your loss of respect at length with the rest of your mutual friends, and trying to get her "kicked out"?
Follow all of these through to the eventual conclusion. The most unlikely scenario is that 10 years from now you and she turn up at the same events but mildly avoid each other; much more likely is that you leave the group, she leaves the group, or between the two of you, you manage to split the party down the middle, or perhaps that your friendship develops differently and you gain a lot of respect for some other aspect of her personality, and this past incident turns out to not have been so important.
Think carefully about where this is leading, what you want, and how important she, your principles, and your friends are to you.
posted by aimedwander at 8:16 AM on January 14, 2010
Aside from that, consider: what do you really want to have happen?
Do you want her to not perceive that there's anything different about the way you respond to her? "Anon is such a nice person, but we're really just friends of friends; (s)he's not very talkative about anything personal, but Anon sure is pleasant, and I'm glad we go to the same parties."
Or do you want her to realize that something is up, but assume it's nothing relevant? "Anon has always seemed to be such a nice person, but has been a bit tight-lipped lately, I bet work is stressful in this down economy and it's too bad it's getting Anon down. It's not like I'm buddies with Anon enough to ask or talk about it, but I do wish him/her the best."
Or do you want her to know that you've cooled off towards her specifically, but assume it's not anything permanent or important? "Anon and I hang out with the same people, but I don't know her well enough to ask what I did to bug her so much; I know it's something because she used to be so friendly and interesting and now she's just staring past me and making polite conversation, but she talks to everyone else just fine. If it mattered, I bet she'd say something, so I'll just wait till the stick falls back out of her butt and go hang out with someone else."
Or do you want her to know that you have a problem with the specific thing she did? "Anon has been politely avoiding me ever since it came out that I cheated on my ex-husband; she's such a traditionalist, of course that bugs her." and now part two - do you want her to have any control over the situation? "agreeing to disagree" is very different from hostile disagreement, and if you ever talk about it, she is stuck on the receiving end of a cold shoulder, with nothing she can do about it.
And do you care how your other friends feel about her? Will you lose respect for that whole group of friends if they see you cooling off towards her, and just sort of shrug and continue loving her? Will she feel that not only are you distancing yourself from her, but that you're talking about your loss of respect at length with the rest of your mutual friends, and trying to get her "kicked out"?
Follow all of these through to the eventual conclusion. The most unlikely scenario is that 10 years from now you and she turn up at the same events but mildly avoid each other; much more likely is that you leave the group, she leaves the group, or between the two of you, you manage to split the party down the middle, or perhaps that your friendship develops differently and you gain a lot of respect for some other aspect of her personality, and this past incident turns out to not have been so important.
Think carefully about where this is leading, what you want, and how important she, your principles, and your friends are to you.
posted by aimedwander at 8:16 AM on January 14, 2010
"Hey, did you really X?" and/or "People are saying you did Y."
Generally though, this is normal in the course of growing up. If the people around you can't make mistakes as they navigate their lives, then you, OP, are in for a long road of disappointment.
posted by rhizome at 8:29 AM on January 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Generally though, this is normal in the course of growing up. If the people around you can't make mistakes as they navigate their lives, then you, OP, are in for a long road of disappointment.
posted by rhizome at 8:29 AM on January 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
If the issues at hand which, per your admission, have absolutely nothing to do with you and yet you feel strongly enough to part company with this friend, then the honest truth is that you were never really friends at all. You were acquaintances.
However, the fact that you use the word 'civil' indicates that you have, for whatever reason, taken umbrage at this thing which had--not to put too fine a point on it--not a thing to do with you.
This means that you want to communicate, silently, distantly, to this person that you disapprove of them while still maintaining a patina of 'nice guy/girl'.
For everyone's sake, including your own, walk away and stop being involved at all.
posted by gsh at 8:47 AM on January 14, 2010
However, the fact that you use the word 'civil' indicates that you have, for whatever reason, taken umbrage at this thing which had--not to put too fine a point on it--not a thing to do with you.
This means that you want to communicate, silently, distantly, to this person that you disapprove of them while still maintaining a patina of 'nice guy/girl'.
For everyone's sake, including your own, walk away and stop being involved at all.
posted by gsh at 8:47 AM on January 14, 2010
My, people are awfully quick to judge the OP for "judging." Look, human beings are imperfect -- let's not all get so holy about saying so. I don't see anything in the OP's post indicating that he or she wishes "to be casually dismissive, a little off-handedly curt, judgy, and aloft in the presence of their former friend, but without the former friend being given clued-in to why, or given any chance at explanation or redemption." The OP specifically makes the point that s/he does NOT wish to give the cold shoulder or make it otherwise awkward for the former friend -- merely that s/he is now uncomfortable in that friend's presence and doesn't know how to handle it.
Sometimes people do legitimately do things that are both none of our immediate business (see the OP's reluctance to confront the former friend over matters that do not directly affect the OP) but that do fundamentally change the way we perceive someone's character. Not all mistakes are little slips, being harshly condemned by some Judgy McHighHorse. Some actions are not discrete moments sans context, but rather a pattern of behavior and an expression of character that fundamentally change our judgment of their trustworthiness or kindness or how emotionally safe we feel entering into the compact of a friendship with them.
OP, I think it's completely within bounds that you may find yourself in a moral quandary with regards to a former friend, and that you might find yourself unwilling to be deliberately cruel or cold, and yet uncomfortable being in that person's company and trying to pretend that you feel the same way about them. Unfortunately, my only solution (and I know it's difficult, given your social circles) is that you should try to avoid their company when possible, as there's really no way to be that uncomfortable in someone's presence and NOT have them notice. Without meaning to, you may in fact give her the "cold shoulder," and cause her discomfort or hurt. This assumes that you and the former friend were not very close friends, and that she won't deeply feel your absence in her life. If you were, the "fade out" is both impossible and hurtful -- and you do owe your friend a conversation about why you are behaving differently, even if it is uncomfortable, even if you feel that it's not your direct business.
posted by tigerbelly at 8:50 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sometimes people do legitimately do things that are both none of our immediate business (see the OP's reluctance to confront the former friend over matters that do not directly affect the OP) but that do fundamentally change the way we perceive someone's character. Not all mistakes are little slips, being harshly condemned by some Judgy McHighHorse. Some actions are not discrete moments sans context, but rather a pattern of behavior and an expression of character that fundamentally change our judgment of their trustworthiness or kindness or how emotionally safe we feel entering into the compact of a friendship with them.
OP, I think it's completely within bounds that you may find yourself in a moral quandary with regards to a former friend, and that you might find yourself unwilling to be deliberately cruel or cold, and yet uncomfortable being in that person's company and trying to pretend that you feel the same way about them. Unfortunately, my only solution (and I know it's difficult, given your social circles) is that you should try to avoid their company when possible, as there's really no way to be that uncomfortable in someone's presence and NOT have them notice. Without meaning to, you may in fact give her the "cold shoulder," and cause her discomfort or hurt. This assumes that you and the former friend were not very close friends, and that she won't deeply feel your absence in her life. If you were, the "fade out" is both impossible and hurtful -- and you do owe your friend a conversation about why you are behaving differently, even if it is uncomfortable, even if you feel that it's not your direct business.
posted by tigerbelly at 8:50 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Honestly, without knowing the details, you sound like a terrible friend. You hear something about her and rather than ask her about it and get her side of the story, 'cause sometimes people do shitty or stupid things, but learn from their mistakes. Instead you immediately try to distance yourself from her and lose respect for her. Frankly, if that's your attitude, she's probably better off without you.
If you want to cut off or reduce contact with someone, ok fine, that's your choice, but at least have the guts to be adult about it and explain why to the person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:18 AM on January 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
If you want to cut off or reduce contact with someone, ok fine, that's your choice, but at least have the guts to be adult about it and explain why to the person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:18 AM on January 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
What I mean is -- did she do something clearly and unequivocably illegal (i.e. shoplifting), did she do something that's shady and immoral, but still technically legal (i.e. went to a swingers' club) or did she do something that's a matter of opinion (i.e., she changed religion)?
See, and this is part of the problem. In my circle of friends, shoplifting would be frowned on, having religion would be ridiculed, and going to a swinger's club would be a fairly banal Friday night activity.
The friend might not share your worldview in the slightest. You're allowed not to like or respect that, of course. But the very things that you dislike or disrespect might just be who she is.
So just leave it alone, It's none of your fucking business to act coldly toward her. You don't have to invite her to tea if she makes you uncomfortable, but passing judgment just makes you a bitch.
posted by Netzapper at 9:44 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
See, and this is part of the problem. In my circle of friends, shoplifting would be frowned on, having religion would be ridiculed, and going to a swinger's club would be a fairly banal Friday night activity.
The friend might not share your worldview in the slightest. You're allowed not to like or respect that, of course. But the very things that you dislike or disrespect might just be who she is.
So just leave it alone, It's none of your fucking business to act coldly toward her. You don't have to invite her to tea if she makes you uncomfortable, but passing judgment just makes you a bitch.
posted by Netzapper at 9:44 AM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
how would I do that?
Seeing her and hanging out with her are two different things. Just speak less when you see her, and don't enquire as to her life when you are forced to speak to her. Treat her as you would a stranger you've got chatting to on a bus. Polite and calm, but slightly cagey.
If there's a group of you together, gravitate towards other people rather than her.
posted by Solomon at 9:58 AM on January 14, 2010
Seeing her and hanging out with her are two different things. Just speak less when you see her, and don't enquire as to her life when you are forced to speak to her. Treat her as you would a stranger you've got chatting to on a bus. Polite and calm, but slightly cagey.
If there's a group of you together, gravitate towards other people rather than her.
posted by Solomon at 9:58 AM on January 14, 2010
Something similar to this happened to me. I sent her an email explaining what happened and why I felt we could no longer be friends. She replied trying to justify her actions but it just made me feel justified. I don't speak to her at parties and it's ok really.
posted by herbaliser at 12:43 PM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by herbaliser at 12:43 PM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I had a friend who bragged to me that she was charging $50 more per month than the going rate for a room in her house. The new tenant was from another country, in Canada just for six months, and had been directed to my friend because she was, so, you know, "nice". The new tenant just took it on trust that she was being charged a fair price for the room. When I was told this--and my friend was quite smug while she told me--that was basically the end of our friendship. I didn't tell her why--maybe because it was, after all, none of my business. But I don't feel it proves I wasn't her real friend. I was her real friend until I heard she was grifting the innocent.
posted by uans at 3:28 PM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by uans at 3:28 PM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Quite frankly, if she hasn't done anything to you I don't see why you would treat her any differently.
Yes, people do really fucked up things, but you weren't there, you only heard about it afterward. Any opinion or judgment you have about her should only be based on your relationship with her.
posted by Locochona at 6:24 PM on January 14, 2010
Yes, people do really fucked up things, but you weren't there, you only heard about it afterward. Any opinion or judgment you have about her should only be based on your relationship with her.
posted by Locochona at 6:24 PM on January 14, 2010
Again, you need to find out - if you don't already know - and then decide what to do.
There have been cases where I knew 100% that someone who was formerly a friend, mostly a friend-within-a-circle-of-friends-friend but still a friend, did something that made me have zero respect. And it wasn't just what they did, it was the raging hypocrisy. If you, in the course of working on some statistics legal research, discovered that this friend, this friend who has always been known for and is still very vocal about the rights of those who don't have "stars upon thars" was successfully sued, not once by three times, by Sneetches who were wrongfully fired for not having "stars upon thars." Well, if it was something like that, than you know the former friend is a hypocrite and a bigot and there's no reason to continue the friendship.
As Solomon said, "Polite and calm, but slightly cagey. If there's a group of you together, gravitate towards other people rather than her." And you can look pained or ask pointed questions when the friend starts championing the cause of Sneetches who don't have stars upon thars.
There's no reason to confront the former friend - you already know truthiness is not the MO.
On the other hand, if you've head someone had an affair or was criticized for their child-raising, then find out what the truth is and what their situation was. Life is complicated and sometimes what looks like a mistake might have been the best way to deal, and sometimes they're mistakes. People make mistakes.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2010
There have been cases where I knew 100% that someone who was formerly a friend, mostly a friend-within-a-circle-of-friends-friend but still a friend, did something that made me have zero respect. And it wasn't just what they did, it was the raging hypocrisy. If you, in the course of working on some statistics legal research, discovered that this friend, this friend who has always been known for and is still very vocal about the rights of those who don't have "stars upon thars" was successfully sued, not once by three times, by Sneetches who were wrongfully fired for not having "stars upon thars." Well, if it was something like that, than you know the former friend is a hypocrite and a bigot and there's no reason to continue the friendship.
As Solomon said, "Polite and calm, but slightly cagey. If there's a group of you together, gravitate towards other people rather than her." And you can look pained or ask pointed questions when the friend starts championing the cause of Sneetches who don't have stars upon thars.
There's no reason to confront the former friend - you already know truthiness is not the MO.
On the other hand, if you've head someone had an affair or was criticized for their child-raising, then find out what the truth is and what their situation was. Life is complicated and sometimes what looks like a mistake might have been the best way to deal, and sometimes they're mistakes. People make mistakes.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2010
> What I mean is -- did she do something clearly and unequivocably illegal (i.e. shoplifting), did she do something that's shady and immoral, but still technically legal (i.e. went to a swingers' club) or did she do something that's a matter of opinion (i.e., she changed religion)?
See, and this is part of the problem. In my circle of friends, shoplifting would be frowned on, having religion would be ridiculed, and going to a swinger's club would be a fairly banal Friday night activity.
Right, but that's part of my point; I was trying to set up a sliding-scale of "things one could lose respect for." In retrospect, the swinger's club was a bad example of "something that is technically legal, but still pretty risky."
But the fact that you and I differ in our opinions of what "technically legal but risky" is, and that you say in your circle that a change of religion would be ridiculed, emphasizes my point -- that there are some things someone can do, or changes that they make in their lives, about which the only real objection you or I may have to it is that we strongly disagree with it ourselves, and I just don't quite think that's an offense worthy of an outright "get away from me forever, you awful person". Your old friend may now be Buddhist rather than atheist, say, or your old barbecuing buddy may now have decided to go vegetarian, but....they're still your friend, and unless they are pressing YOU to also visit a Krishna consicousness meeting or eschew meat, I don't see that it's quite fair to waive all respect for them in perpetuity.
By the same token, though, there are some offenses which do have a more direct moral/ethical impact on the rest of society; finding out your friend went veggie is QUITE a different kettle of fish from finding out your friend robbed a bank and sees nothing wrong with it. I can see losing respect for someone who sees nothing wrong with theft. Losing respect for someone who's gone veggie or changed their religion, however, I just don't quite feel is fair. For precisely the reasons that you lay out -- there are some things which are only "offensive" as a matter of personal opinion, and there are somethings that we ALL agree are offensive.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on January 15, 2010
See, and this is part of the problem. In my circle of friends, shoplifting would be frowned on, having religion would be ridiculed, and going to a swinger's club would be a fairly banal Friday night activity.
Right, but that's part of my point; I was trying to set up a sliding-scale of "things one could lose respect for." In retrospect, the swinger's club was a bad example of "something that is technically legal, but still pretty risky."
But the fact that you and I differ in our opinions of what "technically legal but risky" is, and that you say in your circle that a change of religion would be ridiculed, emphasizes my point -- that there are some things someone can do, or changes that they make in their lives, about which the only real objection you or I may have to it is that we strongly disagree with it ourselves, and I just don't quite think that's an offense worthy of an outright "get away from me forever, you awful person". Your old friend may now be Buddhist rather than atheist, say, or your old barbecuing buddy may now have decided to go vegetarian, but....they're still your friend, and unless they are pressing YOU to also visit a Krishna consicousness meeting or eschew meat, I don't see that it's quite fair to waive all respect for them in perpetuity.
By the same token, though, there are some offenses which do have a more direct moral/ethical impact on the rest of society; finding out your friend went veggie is QUITE a different kettle of fish from finding out your friend robbed a bank and sees nothing wrong with it. I can see losing respect for someone who sees nothing wrong with theft. Losing respect for someone who's gone veggie or changed their religion, however, I just don't quite feel is fair. For precisely the reasons that you lay out -- there are some things which are only "offensive" as a matter of personal opinion, and there are somethings that we ALL agree are offensive.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on January 15, 2010
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posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:23 AM on January 14, 2010 [15 favorites]