people who support from a distance
January 13, 2010 2:31 PM Subscribe
Military historians: what are some words for "camp follower"? As in the train of civilians who followed an army from field to field, providing services?
"Sutler" is one word for them:
http://www.answers.com/topic/camp-follower-3
Any other words for them? Even words from other languages would be okay. thanks
"Sutler" is one word for them:
http://www.answers.com/topic/camp-follower-3
Any other words for them? Even words from other languages would be okay. thanks
A "camp follower" is a prostitute.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:34 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:34 PM on January 13, 2010
A "camp follower" is a prostitute.
Sometimes. But sex isn't the only civilian service that soldiers are in need of.
posted by muddgirl at 2:41 PM on January 13, 2010
Sometimes. But sex isn't the only civilian service that soldiers are in need of.
posted by muddgirl at 2:41 PM on January 13, 2010
Well, there are two fields of terms: the ones that refer to prostitutes, like doxy, harlot, hussy, strumpet, and trollop, and the ones that refer to jobs done by civilians following the military, like cooking, laundering, providing liquor or nursing, and sutlery. Here's an interesting piece on women followers in the American Revolution.
posted by bearwife at 2:42 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by bearwife at 2:42 PM on January 13, 2010
Best answer: In South America during the Wars of Independence, they were known as "Rabonas," and in Mexico during the Revolution, "Soldaderas." In the latter case at least, they were sometimes soldiers' wives.
Good luck on getting a prostitute to cook your food and do your laundry, Chocolate Pickle.
posted by drlith at 2:48 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Good luck on getting a prostitute to cook your food and do your laundry, Chocolate Pickle.
posted by drlith at 2:48 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
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A camp follower is a term used to identify civilians who follow in the wake of armies or service their needs whilst encamped, in order to sell goods or services that the military does not supply. These can include cooking, laundering, liquor, nursing, sexual services and sutlery.[1] The term is also sometimes used to describe the families of military personnel who accompanied soldiers on campaign, or on posting from base to base; it may also be applied to someone who scavenges after a battle. From the beginning of organised warfare until the end of 19th century camp followers were a vital part of an army's system of support and before sutler services were militarised even military goods were often provided. Camp followers usually accompanied the baggage train and they often outnumbered the army itself, adding to its logistic problems.[2]
In United States history, Molly Pitcher was considered a camp follower during the Revolutionary War, while there were also a number of camp followers on both the Union and Confederate sides of the American Civil War. The term "military brat" refers to the mobile children of career soldiers, who traditionally have been camp or base followers. This practice of base-following has continued up to the present and today at least 12 million Americans aged between 18 to 80 grew up moving from base to base all over the United States, and around the world.[citation needed]
posted by Postroad at 2:52 PM on January 13, 2010
A camp follower is a term used to identify civilians who follow in the wake of armies or service their needs whilst encamped, in order to sell goods or services that the military does not supply. These can include cooking, laundering, liquor, nursing, sexual services and sutlery.[1] The term is also sometimes used to describe the families of military personnel who accompanied soldiers on campaign, or on posting from base to base; it may also be applied to someone who scavenges after a battle. From the beginning of organised warfare until the end of 19th century camp followers were a vital part of an army's system of support and before sutler services were militarised even military goods were often provided. Camp followers usually accompanied the baggage train and they often outnumbered the army itself, adding to its logistic problems.[2]
In United States history, Molly Pitcher was considered a camp follower during the Revolutionary War, while there were also a number of camp followers on both the Union and Confederate sides of the American Civil War. The term "military brat" refers to the mobile children of career soldiers, who traditionally have been camp or base followers. This practice of base-following has continued up to the present and today at least 12 million Americans aged between 18 to 80 grew up moving from base to base all over the United States, and around the world.[citation needed]
posted by Postroad at 2:52 PM on January 13, 2010
Best answer: You might be interested in the "vicus" of Roman times, a semi-permanent to permanent civilian settlement that grows up near military garrisons.
posted by Sova at 3:00 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Sova at 3:00 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Hooker" (after the general) is another.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:42 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:42 PM on January 13, 2010
Best answer: Yay, an opportunity to use my HTOED!
03.03.15.12 (n.) Camp follower
rascal 1552-1571 * lackey 1556-1600; 1843 * boy 1559 * soldier's boy 1611 * camper 1631-1691 * lix 1679(2) * camp-follower 1810 01 collectively rascal c1330-1570 * rangale 1375-1513 (Scottish) * rascaldry 1470 * blackguard 1560-1702 02 child born in barracks cantonist 1854 (Russian) * barrack-rat 1936
I'm not goodhearted enough to transcribe the entry after that, the much-longer 03.03.15.13 (n.) Others concerned with military affairs but it includes your sutler, as well as his synonyms vitteler, purveyor, clerk of the victuals, vivander, provant; securer of accomodation herbryour, furrier, furriel; one who supplies soldiers outfitter, beater-up; as well as farriers and saddlers, fortifiers and munitors and munitioners. Plus cart-takers, who do not steal, but requisition, carts.
posted by xueexueg at 4:48 PM on January 13, 2010
03.03.15.12 (n.) Camp follower
rascal 1552-1571 * lackey 1556-1600; 1843 * boy 1559 * soldier's boy 1611 * camper 1631-1691 * lix 1679(2) * camp-follower 1810 01 collectively rascal c1330-1570 * rangale 1375-1513 (Scottish) * rascaldry 1470 * blackguard 1560-1702 02 child born in barracks cantonist 1854 (Russian) * barrack-rat 1936
I'm not goodhearted enough to transcribe the entry after that, the much-longer 03.03.15.13 (n.) Others concerned with military affairs but it includes your sutler, as well as his synonyms vitteler, purveyor, clerk of the victuals, vivander, provant; securer of accomodation herbryour, furrier, furriel; one who supplies soldiers outfitter, beater-up; as well as farriers and saddlers, fortifiers and munitors and munitioners. Plus cart-takers, who do not steal, but requisition, carts.
posted by xueexueg at 4:48 PM on January 13, 2010
"Hooker" (after the general) is another.
That's an urban legend:
"There is a popular legend that the slang term for prostitutes is derived from his last name because of parties and a lack of military discipline at his headquarters. Some versions of the legend claim that the band of prostitutes that followed his division were derisively referred to as "General Hooker's Army" or "Hooker's Brigade." However, the term "hooker" was used in print as early as 1845, years before Hooker was a public figure. The prevalence of the Hooker legend may have been at least partly responsible for the popularity of the term."
posted by Rangeboy at 5:23 PM on January 13, 2010
That's an urban legend:
"There is a popular legend that the slang term for prostitutes is derived from his last name because of parties and a lack of military discipline at his headquarters. Some versions of the legend claim that the band of prostitutes that followed his division were derisively referred to as "General Hooker's Army" or "Hooker's Brigade." However, the term "hooker" was used in print as early as 1845, years before Hooker was a public figure. The prevalence of the Hooker legend may have been at least partly responsible for the popularity of the term."
posted by Rangeboy at 5:23 PM on January 13, 2010
>That's an urban legend:
As far as origins, probably. As far as why we remember it to this day...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:39 PM on January 13, 2010
As far as origins, probably. As far as why we remember it to this day...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:39 PM on January 13, 2010
With regard to Roman legions, I've always understood that the legionaries marched forward and were followed by the baggage-train (Lat. impedimenta) which comprised the essential but non-military portions of the legion (cooks, grooms, minor functionaries etc).
posted by ninazer0 at 7:07 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by ninazer0 at 7:07 PM on January 13, 2010
Response by poster: thanks guys.
These terms are, seems to me, potentially a lovely metaphor for any situation where people/intellectuals back a cause (provide "morale and services") without getting directly involved in the on-the-ground activism.
posted by jak68 at 7:28 PM on January 13, 2010
These terms are, seems to me, potentially a lovely metaphor for any situation where people/intellectuals back a cause (provide "morale and services") without getting directly involved in the on-the-ground activism.
posted by jak68 at 7:28 PM on January 13, 2010
Only if they are providing a material and useful service to those directly involved.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on January 13, 2010
I would add that "sutlers" are usually selling something, and most often that something was equipment, gear, or consumable supplies, whereas the more general "camp followers" includes wives and family members, people to take care of domestic tasks, etc. "Sutler" isn't quite a synonym for camp-follower, it's more of a subcategory.
posted by Miko at 7:55 PM on January 13, 2010
posted by Miko at 7:55 PM on January 13, 2010
>That's an urban legend:
As far as origins, probably. As far as why we remember it to this day...
ChurchHatesTucker, I'd say we remember it to this day because it is and was part of our lexicon.
General Hooker's existence, and the verifiability of the phrase "Hooker's Army", doesn't prove anything about why the word "hooker" survived. Please don't perpetuate myths; it feeds ignorance.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:32 AM on January 14, 2010
As far as origins, probably. As far as why we remember it to this day...
ChurchHatesTucker, I'd say we remember it to this day because it is and was part of our lexicon.
General Hooker's existence, and the verifiability of the phrase "Hooker's Army", doesn't prove anything about why the word "hooker" survived. Please don't perpetuate myths; it feeds ignorance.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:32 AM on January 14, 2010
Please don't perpetuate myths; it feeds ignorance.
I'm certainly not trying to perpetuate a myth, I'm merely suggesting that the word's current connotation was due to its association (apparently after-the-fact, and thanks for pointing that out) with the General.
In other words, had General Hooker not risen to prominence at about that time, the word may have lost that particular association.
Then again, maybe not.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:50 AM on January 14, 2010
I'm certainly not trying to perpetuate a myth, I'm merely suggesting that the word's current connotation was due to its association (apparently after-the-fact, and thanks for pointing that out) with the General.
In other words, had General Hooker not risen to prominence at about that time, the word may have lost that particular association.
Then again, maybe not.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:50 AM on January 14, 2010
In other words, had General Hooker not risen to prominence at about that time, the word may have lost that particular association.
Then again, maybe not.
ChurchHatesTucker, that's a lot more neutral, and doesn't sound like you're promulgating an urban myth.
Most people seem to get so emotionally invested in their WOW!-type stories that they hate to give them up, even in the face of solid evidence.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:38 AM on January 15, 2010
Then again, maybe not.
ChurchHatesTucker, that's a lot more neutral, and doesn't sound like you're promulgating an urban myth.
Most people seem to get so emotionally invested in their WOW!-type stories that they hate to give them up, even in the face of solid evidence.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:38 AM on January 15, 2010
Most people seem to get so emotionally invested in their WOW!-type stories that they hate to give them up, even in the face of solid evidence.
Truth. Although, sometimes the 'urban myths' (or their academic equivalents) are the problem, and sometimes they're (as, I suspect, in this case) the reason.
Does that make sense?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on January 15, 2010
Truth. Although, sometimes the 'urban myths' (or their academic equivalents) are the problem, and sometimes they're (as, I suspect, in this case) the reason.
Does that make sense?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on January 15, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by exogenous at 2:33 PM on January 13, 2010