Engaging young gay adults in the criminal justice system.
December 8, 2009 2:32 PM Subscribe
How do I more effectively encourage gay young adults in the criminal justice system to engage with the larger gay community? (long question)
As a social worker in the criminal justice system I am regularly in contact with young gay men and women who are entering the criminal justice system for the first time as felony drug offenders. Many of the offenders I work with have never encountered the city's larger gay community. They come from extremely small worlds; many have barely ever left their neighborhoods let alone hung out with groups of other young, gay adults. Picture Snoop from the Wire as a typical young lesbian I encounter; rough drug dealer girls who pride themselves on being hard like the corner boys. The young gay men more typically come from tough white working class neighborhoods but have a similarly limited amount of exposure to larger gay culture.
Both groups have limitations in terms of literacy, substance abuse problems, often co-occuring mental health disorders, often histories of sexual abuse. Breaching the subject of sexuality is something I've only done once with a client I was extremely close to, who I felt trusted me enough that I could suggest that she try to plug into the larger gay community by contacting the local gay and lesbian community center to see what kinds of services and programs they have for young black gay women.
She was totally cool with me bringing it up, but seemed...not disinterested, more like the suggestion just didn't make a lot of sense. She clearly didn't understand why she would want to plug in with the larger gay community, or what doing so would do for. I tried to explain what I felt would be the benefits of plugging in with some other young gay women, but wasn't really able to create a spark of interest. At that point I dropped it, because as a social worker I feel it's more important for me to focus on the things my clients feel are important, rather than what I think might be important for them.
The thing is that our program is constantly telling clients about the importance of changing people, places and things, which for many of our clients is next to impossible. They don't know anyone who isn't dealing or using drugs, and usually live on blocks where everyone is dealing and using drugs under their noses all the time. I feel like with my gay clients I have a chance to engage them in this other world of positive support they are completely unaware of if only I could plug them into the gay community. But I'm not sure how to best go about it consindering that my gay clients are often hardened street kids who distrust anyone who doesn't come from their neighborhood and have maybe never even been downtown except to go to court.
I'm hoping for some protips from the gay community here on AskMe. Thanks.
As a social worker in the criminal justice system I am regularly in contact with young gay men and women who are entering the criminal justice system for the first time as felony drug offenders. Many of the offenders I work with have never encountered the city's larger gay community. They come from extremely small worlds; many have barely ever left their neighborhoods let alone hung out with groups of other young, gay adults. Picture Snoop from the Wire as a typical young lesbian I encounter; rough drug dealer girls who pride themselves on being hard like the corner boys. The young gay men more typically come from tough white working class neighborhoods but have a similarly limited amount of exposure to larger gay culture.
Both groups have limitations in terms of literacy, substance abuse problems, often co-occuring mental health disorders, often histories of sexual abuse. Breaching the subject of sexuality is something I've only done once with a client I was extremely close to, who I felt trusted me enough that I could suggest that she try to plug into the larger gay community by contacting the local gay and lesbian community center to see what kinds of services and programs they have for young black gay women.
She was totally cool with me bringing it up, but seemed...not disinterested, more like the suggestion just didn't make a lot of sense. She clearly didn't understand why she would want to plug in with the larger gay community, or what doing so would do for. I tried to explain what I felt would be the benefits of plugging in with some other young gay women, but wasn't really able to create a spark of interest. At that point I dropped it, because as a social worker I feel it's more important for me to focus on the things my clients feel are important, rather than what I think might be important for them.
The thing is that our program is constantly telling clients about the importance of changing people, places and things, which for many of our clients is next to impossible. They don't know anyone who isn't dealing or using drugs, and usually live on blocks where everyone is dealing and using drugs under their noses all the time. I feel like with my gay clients I have a chance to engage them in this other world of positive support they are completely unaware of if only I could plug them into the gay community. But I'm not sure how to best go about it consindering that my gay clients are often hardened street kids who distrust anyone who doesn't come from their neighborhood and have maybe never even been downtown except to go to court.
I'm hoping for some protips from the gay community here on AskMe. Thanks.
Maybe having some pamphlets/posters for the services and programs that you mentioned? That way you don't have to bring it up directly, but the information is there?
posted by k8t at 2:53 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by k8t at 2:53 PM on December 8, 2009
Response by poster: By "entering the criminal justice system", do you mean people who are in or headed towards jail/prison?
No, they are in a diversion program that is providing them with drug and mental health treatment instead of incarceration.
It's kind of like asking a black person, "Say, why don't you go to Harlem so you can be with your own kind?"
No. Please don't do this. I have an extensive posting history here that I think has conveyed to this community that I am both good at what I do and able to have this kind of adult conversation with a gay client that I have spent months building a trusting, mutually respectful relationship with.
This same client who did not plug into any other positive support system (gay or otherwise) fell back with her old crowd after doing months worth of good work with me -- getting back to work, getting her GED, staying clean, getting mental health treatment -- and did something that is going to ruin her life. I am totally haunted right now by the idea that if I could have better sold her on plugging in with some other women like herself who were doing positive things she might be hanging out with her new friends right now rather than getting ready to spend a good chunk of her adult life rotting in a jail cell, so please don't be an asshole to me about this.
posted by The Straightener at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2009 [15 favorites]
No, they are in a diversion program that is providing them with drug and mental health treatment instead of incarceration.
It's kind of like asking a black person, "Say, why don't you go to Harlem so you can be with your own kind?"
No. Please don't do this. I have an extensive posting history here that I think has conveyed to this community that I am both good at what I do and able to have this kind of adult conversation with a gay client that I have spent months building a trusting, mutually respectful relationship with.
This same client who did not plug into any other positive support system (gay or otherwise) fell back with her old crowd after doing months worth of good work with me -- getting back to work, getting her GED, staying clean, getting mental health treatment -- and did something that is going to ruin her life. I am totally haunted right now by the idea that if I could have better sold her on plugging in with some other women like herself who were doing positive things she might be hanging out with her new friends right now rather than getting ready to spend a good chunk of her adult life rotting in a jail cell, so please don't be an asshole to me about this.
posted by The Straightener at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2009 [15 favorites]
Have you read the Equity Project report Hidden Injustice (pdf)?
One of the problems is that the adult gay community is not always the greatest at supporting our young people. Not knowing what the scene is like where you are (Philadelphia? I think) I would suggest trying to make a connection yourself with any queer youth groups to see what kinds of programs they have, and how the youth you are working with could participate. That would probably be a lower threshold than sending young people to more adult programs.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:02 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
One of the problems is that the adult gay community is not always the greatest at supporting our young people. Not knowing what the scene is like where you are (Philadelphia? I think) I would suggest trying to make a connection yourself with any queer youth groups to see what kinds of programs they have, and how the youth you are working with could participate. That would probably be a lower threshold than sending young people to more adult programs.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:02 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
I think what you need to do is work in reverse. You need to find an organization in the gay community that is open to you directing people their way, e.g, GLBT AA/NA groups. I think just telling them to go hang out in Chelsea for a while is not that helpful. It would probably be more beneficial if you could direct them to specific places, etc.
posted by milarepa at 3:02 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by milarepa at 3:02 PM on December 8, 2009
like others have noted, having something specific to suggest will probably go over better. have it be a suggestion among a number of other suggestions - for instance, "there's a GED/adult education group that meets at the 1st baptist, and [enter queer friendly service here] that can help with [whatever it is they can help with]" - that way it's not all about their sexuality, it's just one of many resources they can decide to go to on their own.
posted by nadawi at 3:05 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by nadawi at 3:05 PM on December 8, 2009
contacting the local gay and lesbian community center to see what kinds of services and programs they have for young black gay women
Maybe a more specific recommendation of services and groups (here's a list from William Way, one from phillygaycalendar.com) based on what you might know of her interests would be more appealing? Perhaps contacting these local groups would help you get closer to people who are closer to where she lives and what she's interested in.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:05 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Maybe a more specific recommendation of services and groups (here's a list from William Way, one from phillygaycalendar.com) based on what you might know of her interests would be more appealing? Perhaps contacting these local groups would help you get closer to people who are closer to where she lives and what she's interested in.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:05 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
The Attic Center? More here.
Thank you for asking this question.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:06 PM on December 8, 2009
Thank you for asking this question.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:06 PM on December 8, 2009
It's kind of like asking a black person, "Say, why don't you go to Harlem so you can be with your own kind?"
No, it's not.
But these kids are, as The Straightener points out, stuck in a very circumscribed world. It's likely (probable) that she (the client) can't see the point of hooking into the larger gay community just like way she can't see the point of going back/staying in school, going to a community center for tutoring in math or English, etc.
So, then, how do you get kids like her to see that the gay community might have something to offer her? I have no idea. If there's a gay youth group in Philly (San Francisco's is LYRIC), you might see what kind of programs they offer. Like, do they sponsor poetry slams that one of your clients who likes to write or rhyme might find engaging?
The gay community can have a lot to offer kids like this - lots of grown-up gay people had run-ins with the system when they were kids (or more recently), and not having an adult or other kids give you shit for being queer while trying to "help" you might be a huge relief for a lot of kids in this situation.
On preview: Yes, check with the local NA/AA/Al Anon groups; I went to a queer Al Anon for a while when I lived in DC, and there were a number of meetings for LGBT people, including at least two that were for people under...20, I think, or maybe 18.
posted by rtha at 3:09 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
No, it's not.
But these kids are, as The Straightener points out, stuck in a very circumscribed world. It's likely (probable) that she (the client) can't see the point of hooking into the larger gay community just like way she can't see the point of going back/staying in school, going to a community center for tutoring in math or English, etc.
So, then, how do you get kids like her to see that the gay community might have something to offer her? I have no idea. If there's a gay youth group in Philly (San Francisco's is LYRIC), you might see what kind of programs they offer. Like, do they sponsor poetry slams that one of your clients who likes to write or rhyme might find engaging?
The gay community can have a lot to offer kids like this - lots of grown-up gay people had run-ins with the system when they were kids (or more recently), and not having an adult or other kids give you shit for being queer while trying to "help" you might be a huge relief for a lot of kids in this situation.
On preview: Yes, check with the local NA/AA/Al Anon groups; I went to a queer Al Anon for a while when I lived in DC, and there were a number of meetings for LGBT people, including at least two that were for people under...20, I think, or maybe 18.
posted by rtha at 3:09 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
For your female clients in particular, during the summer, keep an eye on QFest's programming. They frequently feature films and discussion specifically focusing on the African-American lesbian community, like last year's screening of A Litany For Survival: the Life and Work of Audre Lorde.
posted by desuetude at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by desuetude at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2009
I should have said, "could potentially come across as...," and, "...could have the unintended consequence of kneejerk resistance."
That's all I'm saying. Sorry if that makes me an asshole.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2009
That's all I'm saying. Sorry if that makes me an asshole.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2009
While I don't agree with the reasoning of other posters so far, the short answer is that I don't think that you can.
It's sort of a hierarchy of needs issue, where sticking close to the people currently helping you survive is vital, admitting you have unmet needs is dangerous, and getting paid and getting laid are way more important than exploring anything new and risky. I think that's the way it is for most of us, especially under extreme stress (which is what living like these young people fundamentally means).
Seeking contact and identification with an out gay community has the potential for much more harm than good in many of these young people's view - being "more gay" could put distance between them and the peers who help them survive, and what's the use in taking on another oppressed identity? Spending time thinking about another part of their lives that makes them feel weak and vulnerable is added stress in an already very stressful life.
Everyone needs a push as well as a pull to go beyond their current experience, and it's not clear that going outside their peer group and environment would get these young people much of value to them. Identification with other people also attracted to the same gender is a very abstract thing that takes some personal reflection and space to come to value. And it gets even more abstract when you don't (think that you would) see your sexuality in the same way as people in the out gay community, or (maybe more importantly) want to have sex with them. Because honestly, what drives most young people into gay communities is finding people to fuck, and valuing support and community comes after that immediate need is met.
And then you get on to all the shortcomings of the out gay community, the attitudes you often find there towards youth, and various assorted class and race issues, especially in Philly. I know there are good programs, but I also know they're struggling with this question too from the other side. The programs that tend to stick start with economic issues and come from within the community, like some of the great organizations for young transgender sex workers I've seen.
What I think ultimately works for young people like that is meeting someone from within their perceived community who they respect, who shows leadership, and who can model for them how they can live with their sexuality without giving up other qualities they value. It's really just the same process by which young people learn how to sell drugs or navigate anything else in their lives successfully. Unfortunately I don't see a way for you to engineer those situations.
Sorry that this isn't the best written answer, I'm thinking too hard! This stuff is interesting to me, and you are more than welcome to memail me to talk more or ask where I'm coming from with all this.
posted by crabintheocean at 3:31 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's sort of a hierarchy of needs issue, where sticking close to the people currently helping you survive is vital, admitting you have unmet needs is dangerous, and getting paid and getting laid are way more important than exploring anything new and risky. I think that's the way it is for most of us, especially under extreme stress (which is what living like these young people fundamentally means).
Seeking contact and identification with an out gay community has the potential for much more harm than good in many of these young people's view - being "more gay" could put distance between them and the peers who help them survive, and what's the use in taking on another oppressed identity? Spending time thinking about another part of their lives that makes them feel weak and vulnerable is added stress in an already very stressful life.
Everyone needs a push as well as a pull to go beyond their current experience, and it's not clear that going outside their peer group and environment would get these young people much of value to them. Identification with other people also attracted to the same gender is a very abstract thing that takes some personal reflection and space to come to value. And it gets even more abstract when you don't (think that you would) see your sexuality in the same way as people in the out gay community, or (maybe more importantly) want to have sex with them. Because honestly, what drives most young people into gay communities is finding people to fuck, and valuing support and community comes after that immediate need is met.
And then you get on to all the shortcomings of the out gay community, the attitudes you often find there towards youth, and various assorted class and race issues, especially in Philly. I know there are good programs, but I also know they're struggling with this question too from the other side. The programs that tend to stick start with economic issues and come from within the community, like some of the great organizations for young transgender sex workers I've seen.
What I think ultimately works for young people like that is meeting someone from within their perceived community who they respect, who shows leadership, and who can model for them how they can live with their sexuality without giving up other qualities they value. It's really just the same process by which young people learn how to sell drugs or navigate anything else in their lives successfully. Unfortunately I don't see a way for you to engineer those situations.
Sorry that this isn't the best written answer, I'm thinking too hard! This stuff is interesting to me, and you are more than welcome to memail me to talk more or ask where I'm coming from with all this.
posted by crabintheocean at 3:31 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's kind of like asking a black person, "Say, why don't you go to Harlem so you can be with your own kind?"
I somewhat agree with this statement. Straightener, don't take it the wrong way; I am well aware of the good hard work you do day in and day out for people who need it. But there's a couple things:
1) Drug use is rampant in the gay (male) community, particularly among the younger set. So might be a frying pan/fire thing there.
2) While it's true that it may be beneficial in some ways for these kids to connect with a world where it's much more okay to be queer, two things need to be kept in mind: first, that kids like this are often the ones who end up on the fringes of the queer community, and (in the case of men, don't know about lesbians) that often means hooking--and you know how that road will lead right back to another file on your desk. Second, from what you have said, it seems like Being Queer is not a large part of the identity of these kids. It just happens to be who they like to sleep with (which, as an aside, would be kind of amazing if the rest of the world could adopt that mindset). I know a lot of that is because they have to hide it, and the freedom to be Who They Are in a safe space might allow them some more latitude to express it, but that may well be totally irrelevant to what they want or need, as you alluded to.
I think what Sys Rq was trying to get at is that you are taking one insignificant portion of their identity, and hanging on that a whole new way of life--and being queer isn't a lifestyle, it's just who you want to boink. Don't worry, we all know you're on the side of the angels here.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:49 PM on December 8, 2009 [8 favorites]
I somewhat agree with this statement. Straightener, don't take it the wrong way; I am well aware of the good hard work you do day in and day out for people who need it. But there's a couple things:
1) Drug use is rampant in the gay (male) community, particularly among the younger set. So might be a frying pan/fire thing there.
2) While it's true that it may be beneficial in some ways for these kids to connect with a world where it's much more okay to be queer, two things need to be kept in mind: first, that kids like this are often the ones who end up on the fringes of the queer community, and (in the case of men, don't know about lesbians) that often means hooking--and you know how that road will lead right back to another file on your desk. Second, from what you have said, it seems like Being Queer is not a large part of the identity of these kids. It just happens to be who they like to sleep with (which, as an aside, would be kind of amazing if the rest of the world could adopt that mindset). I know a lot of that is because they have to hide it, and the freedom to be Who They Are in a safe space might allow them some more latitude to express it, but that may well be totally irrelevant to what they want or need, as you alluded to.
I think what Sys Rq was trying to get at is that you are taking one insignificant portion of their identity, and hanging on that a whole new way of life--and being queer isn't a lifestyle, it's just who you want to boink. Don't worry, we all know you're on the side of the angels here.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:49 PM on December 8, 2009 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Less with the "fuck you" stuff, please.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:55 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:55 PM on December 8, 2009
Yeah, I came back to say some of what dirtynumbangelboy said.
You may be idealizing a little what these kids will find if they meet up with their older, more settled, and more out gay peers. Many gay adults carry all the scars of what your kids are currently dealing with, as well as the pressures of being an oppressed minority. There's potential wisdom and guidance there, but there's also meth and alcohol dependence, and predatory behavior and abusive relationships. No, there's no a lot of sex for money within the lesbian scene, but there's plenty of abuse, violence, and problem drinking.
At the least I think that if you ever can point your clients toward gay community resources you need to be very hard-nosed and unromantic about who's running what in the gay community, what their motives are, and what happens in various settings and scenes. I know DC better than I know Philly, but in DC it's an open secret which orgs are run by community members who just want sexual and financial power, and which are run for genuine mutual aid.
posted by crabintheocean at 4:00 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
You may be idealizing a little what these kids will find if they meet up with their older, more settled, and more out gay peers. Many gay adults carry all the scars of what your kids are currently dealing with, as well as the pressures of being an oppressed minority. There's potential wisdom and guidance there, but there's also meth and alcohol dependence, and predatory behavior and abusive relationships. No, there's no a lot of sex for money within the lesbian scene, but there's plenty of abuse, violence, and problem drinking.
At the least I think that if you ever can point your clients toward gay community resources you need to be very hard-nosed and unromantic about who's running what in the gay community, what their motives are, and what happens in various settings and scenes. I know DC better than I know Philly, but in DC it's an open secret which orgs are run by community members who just want sexual and financial power, and which are run for genuine mutual aid.
posted by crabintheocean at 4:00 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Check with the gay and lesbian lawyers association in Philadelphia (google tells me it's called Gallop) to see if they know any mentoring programs for at-risk youth that have a connection to the LGBT community. It's probably a longshot, but they might have a suggestion. Even if they don't, they might have members who work with at-risk youth programs, which might create a connection that would help you help those of your clients who would benefit from tapping into a LGBT peer group.
posted by crush-onastick at 4:07 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by crush-onastick at 4:07 PM on December 8, 2009
I'm a little surprised by all the negativity here. There are youth organizations and resources for the kinds of queer kids you're working with, and people there who are experts at making these connections. No one is suggesting that these young people would be well served by picking up older folks at some gay bar. At least I'm not.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:34 PM on December 8, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 4:34 PM on December 8, 2009 [6 favorites]
I think I can understand the girl's reaction- while being gay is something she might have in common with "the community", she may not believe she'd have anything else in common. I think that people who were interested in joining the community would have. Or in other words, the only thing that makes the gay community a community is that interested people have gathered together.
While many people enjoy socializing with others who are like them, a lot of other people really don't like the idea of socializing based on their sexuality. (Or religion or hobbies or skin color or whatever.) I can see where a lot of people would see suggestions like this (well meaning as they might be) as an attempt to "fix them up" with new friends.
It actually sounds a lot like the classic extrovert versus introvert conflict. Extrovert sees introvert sitting by themselves and imagines they are unhappy being alone. So they approach them (because who doesn't like meeting strangers, amiright?) and suggest they hang out with that other introvert in the other corner 'cause they are both reading books and clearly have that in common.
I think the farthest you can go is to have resources ready for people who might be experiencing lgbt specific issues, and maybe try to recognize people who are struggling and to try to help them figure out their struggles.
posted by gjc at 4:43 PM on December 8, 2009
While many people enjoy socializing with others who are like them, a lot of other people really don't like the idea of socializing based on their sexuality. (Or religion or hobbies or skin color or whatever.) I can see where a lot of people would see suggestions like this (well meaning as they might be) as an attempt to "fix them up" with new friends.
It actually sounds a lot like the classic extrovert versus introvert conflict. Extrovert sees introvert sitting by themselves and imagines they are unhappy being alone. So they approach them (because who doesn't like meeting strangers, amiright?) and suggest they hang out with that other introvert in the other corner 'cause they are both reading books and clearly have that in common.
I think the farthest you can go is to have resources ready for people who might be experiencing lgbt specific issues, and maybe try to recognize people who are struggling and to try to help them figure out their struggles.
posted by gjc at 4:43 PM on December 8, 2009
I think having a better sense of the offerings in your community - as someone says above - the queer al-anon, queer basketball/rugby/baseball/softball, queer arts, queer community service, queer teen stuff, maybe particularly queers of color, - would be the best way to go. Then you're hooking them up with an activity that includes and references their sexuality (and social history as a result of that sexuality) and something about their personality and interests, rather than just all-things-gay.
To start, I'd send an email around to all the different queer organizations and start to develop your own rolodex of what each organization does, who the people are, and what kinds of roles they might imagine offering to potential clients of yours. For example, I work with a local queer arts organization, and based on our website, that is pretty obvious. But if you called me with a particular case, and told me her interests or personality, I might say - we're holding a show soon and we need stage help, or we're doing a community event at the YMCA, or I'm teaching a class, or whatever. Starting that relationship before you have a particular client in mind might help you to be fluid in your suggestions, and maybe even some materials on hand.
Finally, would cultivating a roster of available "mentors" be appropriate? Kind of like the Big Brother/Big Sister program. Where you'd develop a list of queers who might have gone through some of these issues, and be willing to be a personal mentor for someone just starting down the clean-up path. Possibly too involved or not part of the protocol -- but my sense is personal connections will be better than a general "gay community" recommendation.
And finally, it seems prudent to remember that the gay community can be obnoxious in its own way. And overwhelming in its own way. For a kid who isn't part of a 'gay community' to be faced with a group of out-and-proud homos, talking about their boyfriends and xyz, that can be a rather disjointed experience for someone. I've seen kids, whom I know personally to be gay and fairly OK with that, to have zero understanding of how to interact with out gays in their 20s. They do eventually warm up, but it's kind of a process. I guess everything is.
posted by barnone at 5:04 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
To start, I'd send an email around to all the different queer organizations and start to develop your own rolodex of what each organization does, who the people are, and what kinds of roles they might imagine offering to potential clients of yours. For example, I work with a local queer arts organization, and based on our website, that is pretty obvious. But if you called me with a particular case, and told me her interests or personality, I might say - we're holding a show soon and we need stage help, or we're doing a community event at the YMCA, or I'm teaching a class, or whatever. Starting that relationship before you have a particular client in mind might help you to be fluid in your suggestions, and maybe even some materials on hand.
Finally, would cultivating a roster of available "mentors" be appropriate? Kind of like the Big Brother/Big Sister program. Where you'd develop a list of queers who might have gone through some of these issues, and be willing to be a personal mentor for someone just starting down the clean-up path. Possibly too involved or not part of the protocol -- but my sense is personal connections will be better than a general "gay community" recommendation.
And finally, it seems prudent to remember that the gay community can be obnoxious in its own way. And overwhelming in its own way. For a kid who isn't part of a 'gay community' to be faced with a group of out-and-proud homos, talking about their boyfriends and xyz, that can be a rather disjointed experience for someone. I've seen kids, whom I know personally to be gay and fairly OK with that, to have zero understanding of how to interact with out gays in their 20s. They do eventually warm up, but it's kind of a process. I guess everything is.
posted by barnone at 5:04 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'd write to Black and Pink too. Lots of good links on prison and the gay community - the archives and the guy that runs it seems like they'd have other good suggestions.
posted by barnone at 5:14 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by barnone at 5:14 PM on December 8, 2009
Best answer: Some other good connections and organizations listed in this article. GALAEI is the Gay and Lesbian Latino AIDS Education Initiative. They might know of some good queer groups in the latino community.
If any of them are HIV+, Action AIDS offers a buddy program.
Maybe run your question by Gloria Casarez, Director of LGBT Affairs for The City of Philadelphia. Maybe she would know of particularly good groups, or a good connection for you. You need a "fixer" - someone in the gay community who knows this side of things. Maybe she'd be able to think of someone like that who could help you figure out some of these questions.
And here is the BGMLC - Black gay men's leadership council in Philly. They have a good list of Philly gay community organizations.
posted by barnone at 5:29 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
If any of them are HIV+, Action AIDS offers a buddy program.
Maybe run your question by Gloria Casarez, Director of LGBT Affairs for The City of Philadelphia. Maybe she would know of particularly good groups, or a good connection for you. You need a "fixer" - someone in the gay community who knows this side of things. Maybe she'd be able to think of someone like that who could help you figure out some of these questions.
And here is the BGMLC - Black gay men's leadership council in Philly. They have a good list of Philly gay community organizations.
posted by barnone at 5:29 PM on December 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
oursistacircle is an online community for lesbians of color. I guess online access might be difficult for your clients, but then again, it might provide an easier entry point than a general face-to-face community. Just a thought.
Lots of other links here. No idea if these places are all still around or accurate - just meant as a starting point for conversations in your community.
A few I'll highlight - not as blind places to send clients, but as folks in the community who might be willing to talk with you and see if their group would be appropriate:
- Rainbow Room.A meeting/activity night held for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth and their friends Wednesdays from 6-8 p.m. at the Rainbow Room of Planned Parenthood in Doylestown; (215) 348-0558.
- Social XChange. A social group for sexual minorities ages 13-23 meets every Tuesday from 6-8 p.m. at 1201 Chestnut St., 15th floor; (215) 496-0330
- Latina/o Virtual Community. Local listserv offers various information and resources; Zorros_mail@yahoo.com; LatinPhillyLGBT@yahoogroups.com.
If you scroll down a bunch, there are lots of listings of LGBTQ Al-Anon and NA and CMA (Crystal Meth Anonymous).
---------
Good for you for trying to figure this out. Gay kids, gay kids of color, and especially those living in generational poverty, and inner city environments: they have a really really rough go of things. And sure they might present it as just "who they boink" (as someone upthread said) -- but systemic homophobia leads to terrible rates of homelessness, drug addiction, prostitution and more, in the queer youth community. I'm sorry there is one case that is haunting you right now - those connections and 'what if' questions are really difficult to bridge. And as long as they lead to questions like this - "what can I do differently?" - that lesson wasn't for nothing.
posted by barnone at 5:51 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Lots of other links here. No idea if these places are all still around or accurate - just meant as a starting point for conversations in your community.
A few I'll highlight - not as blind places to send clients, but as folks in the community who might be willing to talk with you and see if their group would be appropriate:
- Rainbow Room.A meeting/activity night held for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth and their friends Wednesdays from 6-8 p.m. at the Rainbow Room of Planned Parenthood in Doylestown; (215) 348-0558.
- Social XChange. A social group for sexual minorities ages 13-23 meets every Tuesday from 6-8 p.m. at 1201 Chestnut St., 15th floor; (215) 496-0330
- Latina/o Virtual Community. Local listserv offers various information and resources; Zorros_mail@yahoo.com; LatinPhillyLGBT@yahoogroups.com.
If you scroll down a bunch, there are lots of listings of LGBTQ Al-Anon and NA and CMA (Crystal Meth Anonymous).
---------
Good for you for trying to figure this out. Gay kids, gay kids of color, and especially those living in generational poverty, and inner city environments: they have a really really rough go of things. And sure they might present it as just "who they boink" (as someone upthread said) -- but systemic homophobia leads to terrible rates of homelessness, drug addiction, prostitution and more, in the queer youth community. I'm sorry there is one case that is haunting you right now - those connections and 'what if' questions are really difficult to bridge. And as long as they lead to questions like this - "what can I do differently?" - that lesson wasn't for nothing.
posted by barnone at 5:51 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sorry, keep finding ideas.
- Mazzoni Center: "Mazzoni Center is Philadelphia's LGBT health center. We are the health professionals, social workers, HIV specialists, counselors, educators, and volunteers who are leading a revolution in LGBT health care." I would definitely give them a call to find out more about what they do, and programs they offer. I know you meant things more along the lines of social activities, BUT it looks like they offer a ton of other resources. They have some good support groups - that could be a really good way of plugging kids into an appropriate and supportive community. It looks like they have sliding scale and fee waivers.
------------
And a list of interesting articles on queer youth at risk.
When compared to heterosexual homeless youth, LGBT homeless youth:
- Are physically or sexually victimized on average by seven more people;
- Leave home an average of 12 times as
- to seven times for non-LGBT youth;
- Have had nearly twice as many sexual partners;
- Have used 11 of 12 dangerous substances more frequently.
From “Challenges Faced by Homeless Sexual Minorities: Comparison of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgendered Homeless Adolescents with their Heterosexual Counterparts,” Cochran, B. N., Stewart, A., Ginzler, J. A., & Cauce, A. M., American Journal of Public Health, Vol. 92, 2002.
posted by barnone at 6:01 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
- Mazzoni Center: "Mazzoni Center is Philadelphia's LGBT health center. We are the health professionals, social workers, HIV specialists, counselors, educators, and volunteers who are leading a revolution in LGBT health care." I would definitely give them a call to find out more about what they do, and programs they offer. I know you meant things more along the lines of social activities, BUT it looks like they offer a ton of other resources. They have some good support groups - that could be a really good way of plugging kids into an appropriate and supportive community. It looks like they have sliding scale and fee waivers.
------------
And a list of interesting articles on queer youth at risk.
When compared to heterosexual homeless youth, LGBT homeless youth:
- Are physically or sexually victimized on average by seven more people;
- Leave home an average of 12 times as
- to seven times for non-LGBT youth;
- Have had nearly twice as many sexual partners;
- Have used 11 of 12 dangerous substances more frequently.
From “Challenges Faced by Homeless Sexual Minorities: Comparison of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgendered Homeless Adolescents with their Heterosexual Counterparts,” Cochran, B. N., Stewart, A., Ginzler, J. A., & Cauce, A. M., American Journal of Public Health, Vol. 92, 2002.
posted by barnone at 6:01 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sorry, last one. The Audre Lorde Project is in NYC. But they strike me as an organization that would have some familiarity and connection to the types of problems that you're facing. A well-written email, asking for a personal introduction to someone in your area familiar with these issues, might be productive.
posted by barnone at 6:12 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by barnone at 6:12 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Foyer of Philadelphia - a program under development: "Foyer of Philadelphia will fill the gap for LGBTQ young adults who are in need of housing. By providing transitional housing and supportive services, individuals in the program will move from a place of desperation and dependency to hope and autonomy as a result of being provided with stable housing, job training, meaningful education and work experience."
"We are a group of professionals in the Social Service and Business fields who share a common interest and goal to provide housing services to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender youth in Philadelphia. If you would like to join the team as a volunteer or board member please contact us at info@foyerofphiladelphia.org." Why not email them and talk about your questions and ideas? It seems like they'd be a great network of folks to talk through some of these things.
--------------
"Youth homeless agency receives $200K in stimulus to start LGBT program. The federal stimulus package will hit home for the local LGBT community, thanks to a grant bequested to a Philadelphia nonprofit that works to curtail youth homelessness. Valley Youth House, a local organization that provides comprehensive services to homeless and at-risk youth, was notified last month that its grant proposal to launch LGBT programming was approved, and that it would receive $199,888 to implement the plan... Valley Youth will host a series of workshops for LGBT individuals, ages 18-21, to walk them through the process of apartment-hunting and renting their own space, with such topics as budgeting, credit scores, roommate searches and security deposits, as well as discussions on seemingly commonplace issues like how to handle a clogged toilet or a pest infestation, which Motsavage said many young adults renting their first apartment are often in the dark about." More information at Valley Youth House.
posted by barnone at 6:22 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
"We are a group of professionals in the Social Service and Business fields who share a common interest and goal to provide housing services to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender youth in Philadelphia. If you would like to join the team as a volunteer or board member please contact us at info@foyerofphiladelphia.org." Why not email them and talk about your questions and ideas? It seems like they'd be a great network of folks to talk through some of these things.
--------------
"Youth homeless agency receives $200K in stimulus to start LGBT program. The federal stimulus package will hit home for the local LGBT community, thanks to a grant bequested to a Philadelphia nonprofit that works to curtail youth homelessness. Valley Youth House, a local organization that provides comprehensive services to homeless and at-risk youth, was notified last month that its grant proposal to launch LGBT programming was approved, and that it would receive $199,888 to implement the plan... Valley Youth will host a series of workshops for LGBT individuals, ages 18-21, to walk them through the process of apartment-hunting and renting their own space, with such topics as budgeting, credit scores, roommate searches and security deposits, as well as discussions on seemingly commonplace issues like how to handle a clogged toilet or a pest infestation, which Motsavage said many young adults renting their first apartment are often in the dark about." More information at Valley Youth House.
posted by barnone at 6:22 PM on December 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Second, from what you have said, it seems like Being Queer is not a large part of the identity of these kids.
Of course it is. The first thing I ever did for this client as her case manager was to go to the church run, city funded housing program the court stipulated her to live in after she called me freaking out about the straight up discrimination that the agency totally condoned. I had to get in the program director's grill and explain to her that I wouldn't tolerate other women living at the facility calling my client a fucking dyke, a bulldagger and a freak. The church staff was letting it happen; they didn't like her because she was a butch lesbian and were actually hoping she would get into a confrontation with another resident so they could discharge her. She didn't want to stay there, but if she left she would get locked up for absconding. She told me this shit and I went through the roof, I was at that place 20 minutes later going totally bonkers on these people and as a result the bullshit stopped.
So being queer is totally a big part of these kids lives whether they want it to be or not, the problem as I saw it is the fact that they have no guidance, on input, no support in their community when these identity-based crisis situations arise. I just wanted to connect this woman to someone she could talk to who's walked the same road and could provide her with the kind of guidance and support that as a white, straight man I obviously could not.
So it's important to realize that I didn't bring sexuality into the picture for no reason, there was chronic and persistent sexuality-based persecution that she faced inside the criminal justice system and I was trying to help her navigate this landscape. I was able to talk with her about this stuff because I earned her trust and respect by going to bat for her time and again when shit in her life hit the fan. Shit, I've got someone on the mental health unit looking out for her on the inside right now even though I'm not even her social worker anymore!
Thanks everyone for the constructive input, this is all extremely helpful and I will try to integrate as much of this information into my work as possible. Also, thank you all for the supportive Memails, I really appreciate that.
posted by The Straightener at 6:40 PM on December 8, 2009 [8 favorites]
Of course it is. The first thing I ever did for this client as her case manager was to go to the church run, city funded housing program the court stipulated her to live in after she called me freaking out about the straight up discrimination that the agency totally condoned. I had to get in the program director's grill and explain to her that I wouldn't tolerate other women living at the facility calling my client a fucking dyke, a bulldagger and a freak. The church staff was letting it happen; they didn't like her because she was a butch lesbian and were actually hoping she would get into a confrontation with another resident so they could discharge her. She didn't want to stay there, but if she left she would get locked up for absconding. She told me this shit and I went through the roof, I was at that place 20 minutes later going totally bonkers on these people and as a result the bullshit stopped.
So being queer is totally a big part of these kids lives whether they want it to be or not, the problem as I saw it is the fact that they have no guidance, on input, no support in their community when these identity-based crisis situations arise. I just wanted to connect this woman to someone she could talk to who's walked the same road and could provide her with the kind of guidance and support that as a white, straight man I obviously could not.
So it's important to realize that I didn't bring sexuality into the picture for no reason, there was chronic and persistent sexuality-based persecution that she faced inside the criminal justice system and I was trying to help her navigate this landscape. I was able to talk with her about this stuff because I earned her trust and respect by going to bat for her time and again when shit in her life hit the fan. Shit, I've got someone on the mental health unit looking out for her on the inside right now even though I'm not even her social worker anymore!
Thanks everyone for the constructive input, this is all extremely helpful and I will try to integrate as much of this information into my work as possible. Also, thank you all for the supportive Memails, I really appreciate that.
posted by The Straightener at 6:40 PM on December 8, 2009 [8 favorites]
Hey now, I was only going by the information you provided, namely that it seemed irrelevant to her. We really all do respect and cherish the hard work you do, Straightener, please don't forget that.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:52 PM on December 8, 2009
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:52 PM on December 8, 2009
We really all do respect and cherish the hard work you do, Straightener, please don't forget that.
This is true.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:57 PM on December 8, 2009
This is true.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:57 PM on December 8, 2009
I think that people who were interested in joining the community would have.
They would have to know that such a community exists. Then, they'd have to know what it's good for. And be convinced that they are welcome. And be willing to have the guts to walk into an unfamiliar situation. C'mon, I'm a pretty outgoing person, and I was a little nervous going to my first Metafilter meetup.
This is part of what The Straightener is asking -- how do you clue someone in to (a portion of the) gay community to someone less familiar with choosing a social/support circle, rather than defaulting to that which is defined by growing up on the same block, then shooting dope together.
posted by desuetude at 7:32 PM on December 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
They would have to know that such a community exists. Then, they'd have to know what it's good for. And be convinced that they are welcome. And be willing to have the guts to walk into an unfamiliar situation. C'mon, I'm a pretty outgoing person, and I was a little nervous going to my first Metafilter meetup.
This is part of what The Straightener is asking -- how do you clue someone in to (a portion of the) gay community to someone less familiar with choosing a social/support circle, rather than defaulting to that which is defined by growing up on the same block, then shooting dope together.
posted by desuetude at 7:32 PM on December 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
Best answer: It's easier for me to bring this up with my clients. I'm gay. So I have an instant rapport with them based on the fact that it's damn near impossible for me to mask the fact that I'm a big ol' mo. But so long as you have a confidential, private space to talk to your clients, I think you can ratchet up your confidence in talking to them about this. We are living in a world where Oprah has already addressed the phenomenon of "the Downlow." And I don't say that in a glib way - I mean it very seriously.
But in general, there are some gay friendly tricks that you need to know in order to help rapport develop between you and a gay client. (Most of these are especially true if you're not sure of your client's sexuality.)
1. Be VERY careful with your words. A heteronormative slip when you're talking to a gay person is a BIG RED FLAG that you're not the person they're going to open up to about this subject. Pronouns, pronouns, pronouns. "So, what's your marital status?" sucks because it may immediately remind a gay person that they can't be married or that their relationship doesn't fit neatly into one of the boxes on your form. "Are you in a relationship?" is better because it is ACTUALLY vague. "So are you in a relationship - do you have a boyfriend or girlfriend?" is best, because it is vague AND accepting, whatever the response.
2. Watch for "the moment." I'm sure you know when to dig deeper when you're talking to someone. There's that moment when they jerk their head to the side a little, give a nervous smile, deflect you with a drawled "Eeeeeh" that is neither an agreement or a disagreement and then just let it hang there as if that was sufficient explanation. Or that moment when you ask a seemingly simple question and your client scrunches up their nose and hesitates to answer. Watch for those and try to minimize whatever it is in response to. Of course, you've hit a nerve but don't immediately assume that you've reached the dead end. Often, that's when I get my gay clients to start opening up the most. Those nonverbal cues are (more often than not) indications of their willingness to discuss the subject, but you're going to have to lead.
3. A rainbow flag. Seriously. Honest to god. If you don't have one up, put one over your desk. Think of it as a conversation piece. If it is conspicuously placed, one or more clients might be inspired to even ask you about your sexuality which opens you up to talk to them about the subject. Maybe none of them ever bring it up themselves, but it still will send a message that you are NOT the enemy and that is helpful.
4. Ask nonthreatening, open-ended questions about their relationships and their relationship with the gay community. Don't ask, "So do you ever get down to the Gayborhood?" because it's a tough subject and any yes/no question is probably going to get them the clam up. Kids like conspirators, so "Where do you go to meet guys? What are your favorite hangouts?" will at worst come across as tragically unhip. If it goes over like a lead balloon, dismiss it with, "Eh, whatever, there was just another guy/girl in the program who was wondering..." and no harm, no foul.
5. Focus on interests. Realize that for every interest that a kid has, there's a gay group that does exactly that. Kid wants to run, or play sports? Paint? Shoot films? Be a doctor? Play video games? Learn an instrument? Gays are not only ghettoized physically in gayborhoods. Gays have even become ghettoized within subcultures. It is a comfort thing. Video games are great - unless you're playing them with a bunch of straight tools who keep saying things like, "I'm gonna fucking blow your head off you faggot!" Then video games become an incredibly hostile experience. So there are "gaymer" groups all over the place - queers who get together to game. Connect your clients to safe groups that fit directly with their interests.
-----
As many people have pointed out, there are great resources out there, but some are better than others. I also favorited dirtynumbangelboy's comment because he brings up some vital points which you need to remember when dealing with a community that has already had problems with substances. *Mainstream* gay culture is still largely centered around - at the very least - drinking.
GALLOP is an inappropriate resource for a lot of reasons that don't require a lot of details. First, there isn't a strong community mentorship program in that organization. (For law students, yes; for community members in general, no.) Second, they are lawyers: they drink like fish. The social events that they host are typical of the legal profession and that probably makes it inappropriate for participants in a jail diversion program.
My mother suggests talking to the local NA organization about Hospitals and Institutions, to get people who might be doing local service work. She is the director of a drug and alcohol rehab center for women, and that is what they do for participants in the local jail diversion program.
I have some thoughts (both very positive and very uneasy) about gay AA/NA/CMA meetings in general and in Philadelphia specifically but I don't feel comfortable sharing them publicly. I'm more than happy to share my thoughts and personal experiences on that via MeMail to you or anyone else.
Check out FINS and Frontrunners, two sports organizations in Philly which might be a way for young people to get involved in an activity with other gays. I know a lot of people who love those programs and, again, I'd be happy to put you in touch with them. (Also, it's been my observation that there is a crossover between sports organizations and recovery - which could be an added benefit of getting someone involved in a sports group. They may find some added recovery support there as well.)
And okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but go hang out at Arch and Broad on Tuesday (or Wednesday, now I can't recall) evenings, and find out what event is being hosted at the JFK MHMR center. Whatever is going on there attracts at least four dozen, 17 year old, gay, African American boys.
posted by greekphilosophy at 10:08 PM on December 8, 2009 [9 favorites]
But in general, there are some gay friendly tricks that you need to know in order to help rapport develop between you and a gay client. (Most of these are especially true if you're not sure of your client's sexuality.)
1. Be VERY careful with your words. A heteronormative slip when you're talking to a gay person is a BIG RED FLAG that you're not the person they're going to open up to about this subject. Pronouns, pronouns, pronouns. "So, what's your marital status?" sucks because it may immediately remind a gay person that they can't be married or that their relationship doesn't fit neatly into one of the boxes on your form. "Are you in a relationship?" is better because it is ACTUALLY vague. "So are you in a relationship - do you have a boyfriend or girlfriend?" is best, because it is vague AND accepting, whatever the response.
2. Watch for "the moment." I'm sure you know when to dig deeper when you're talking to someone. There's that moment when they jerk their head to the side a little, give a nervous smile, deflect you with a drawled "Eeeeeh" that is neither an agreement or a disagreement and then just let it hang there as if that was sufficient explanation. Or that moment when you ask a seemingly simple question and your client scrunches up their nose and hesitates to answer. Watch for those and try to minimize whatever it is in response to. Of course, you've hit a nerve but don't immediately assume that you've reached the dead end. Often, that's when I get my gay clients to start opening up the most. Those nonverbal cues are (more often than not) indications of their willingness to discuss the subject, but you're going to have to lead.
3. A rainbow flag. Seriously. Honest to god. If you don't have one up, put one over your desk. Think of it as a conversation piece. If it is conspicuously placed, one or more clients might be inspired to even ask you about your sexuality which opens you up to talk to them about the subject. Maybe none of them ever bring it up themselves, but it still will send a message that you are NOT the enemy and that is helpful.
4. Ask nonthreatening, open-ended questions about their relationships and their relationship with the gay community. Don't ask, "So do you ever get down to the Gayborhood?" because it's a tough subject and any yes/no question is probably going to get them the clam up. Kids like conspirators, so "Where do you go to meet guys? What are your favorite hangouts?" will at worst come across as tragically unhip. If it goes over like a lead balloon, dismiss it with, "Eh, whatever, there was just another guy/girl in the program who was wondering..." and no harm, no foul.
5. Focus on interests. Realize that for every interest that a kid has, there's a gay group that does exactly that. Kid wants to run, or play sports? Paint? Shoot films? Be a doctor? Play video games? Learn an instrument? Gays are not only ghettoized physically in gayborhoods. Gays have even become ghettoized within subcultures. It is a comfort thing. Video games are great - unless you're playing them with a bunch of straight tools who keep saying things like, "I'm gonna fucking blow your head off you faggot!" Then video games become an incredibly hostile experience. So there are "gaymer" groups all over the place - queers who get together to game. Connect your clients to safe groups that fit directly with their interests.
-----
As many people have pointed out, there are great resources out there, but some are better than others. I also favorited dirtynumbangelboy's comment because he brings up some vital points which you need to remember when dealing with a community that has already had problems with substances. *Mainstream* gay culture is still largely centered around - at the very least - drinking.
GALLOP is an inappropriate resource for a lot of reasons that don't require a lot of details. First, there isn't a strong community mentorship program in that organization. (For law students, yes; for community members in general, no.) Second, they are lawyers: they drink like fish. The social events that they host are typical of the legal profession and that probably makes it inappropriate for participants in a jail diversion program.
My mother suggests talking to the local NA organization about Hospitals and Institutions, to get people who might be doing local service work. She is the director of a drug and alcohol rehab center for women, and that is what they do for participants in the local jail diversion program.
I have some thoughts (both very positive and very uneasy) about gay AA/NA/CMA meetings in general and in Philadelphia specifically but I don't feel comfortable sharing them publicly. I'm more than happy to share my thoughts and personal experiences on that via MeMail to you or anyone else.
Check out FINS and Frontrunners, two sports organizations in Philly which might be a way for young people to get involved in an activity with other gays. I know a lot of people who love those programs and, again, I'd be happy to put you in touch with them. (Also, it's been my observation that there is a crossover between sports organizations and recovery - which could be an added benefit of getting someone involved in a sports group. They may find some added recovery support there as well.)
And okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but go hang out at Arch and Broad on Tuesday (or Wednesday, now I can't recall) evenings, and find out what event is being hosted at the JFK MHMR center. Whatever is going on there attracts at least four dozen, 17 year old, gay, African American boys.
posted by greekphilosophy at 10:08 PM on December 8, 2009 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks Patrick, I figured you'd come through on this one.
We really all do respect and cherish the hard work you do, Straightener, please don't forget that.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh. It's an emotional job sometimes and when your all time favorite client falls down hard like this it's like watching your own kid fuck up or something. I should have posted this after a better day at work.
posted by The Straightener at 6:41 AM on December 9, 2009
We really all do respect and cherish the hard work you do, Straightener, please don't forget that.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh. It's an emotional job sometimes and when your all time favorite client falls down hard like this it's like watching your own kid fuck up or something. I should have posted this after a better day at work.
posted by The Straightener at 6:41 AM on December 9, 2009
No worries, man. I don't think any of us--greekphilosophy excepted--can really understand the stress you're under.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:30 AM on December 9, 2009
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:30 AM on December 9, 2009
Not Philly, but not too far: SMYAL in DC may also have resources and ideas for engagement.
Also this: They would have to know that such a community exists. Then, they'd have to know what it's good for. And be convinced that they are welcome. And be willing to have the guts to walk into an unfamiliar situation.
...is totally, totally on the money. Even being white and middle-class and educated and liberal--el estereotipo gayico maximo--I was scared to death walking into "gay spaces" when I was 20 and 21, worried that I wouldn't fit in somehow.
posted by kittyprecious at 9:34 AM on December 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also this: They would have to know that such a community exists. Then, they'd have to know what it's good for. And be convinced that they are welcome. And be willing to have the guts to walk into an unfamiliar situation.
...is totally, totally on the money. Even being white and middle-class and educated and liberal--el estereotipo gayico maximo--I was scared to death walking into "gay spaces" when I was 20 and 21, worried that I wouldn't fit in somehow.
posted by kittyprecious at 9:34 AM on December 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
In the very-best-case scenario I could imagine referring your clients to prescreened young gay adults no more than five to seven years older than your clients. I say this because I expect that is the absolute upper limit, optimistic at that, of an age group that would have anything at all in common with your clients. Young gay generations have little or nothing in common with older gay generations.
I think it’s a romantic fantasy, along the lines of apprenticeship in the trades, that older gays are dying for the chance to provide some kind of mentorship to gay youth. Few, if any, will have such a desire, and even if they do, everything from race to economic class to what the closet did to them will make the older generation unable to relate to the younger one.
It’s perfectly imaginable that false accusations of sexual abuse would occur in some of these “mentorships,” particularly from drug- and/or alcohol-addicted youth with various of the problems you already cited.
I also don’t think it’s fair to expect older generations to do any of this kind of work. We take one look at the young gay kids and think: What do I have in common with these people? And the kids think the same thing. I have a whole list of my own observations of such generational differences, all of which are forbidden topics on MetaFilter and would be shouted down instantly, so I’m not going to bother.
But I am going to tell you your project is surely doomed to failure and isn’t a good idea in the first place. Showing kids how people just like them! have turned out OK is a non-starter when neither side of the equation feels the other is remotely like them.
posted by joeclark at 11:47 AM on December 9, 2009
I think it’s a romantic fantasy, along the lines of apprenticeship in the trades, that older gays are dying for the chance to provide some kind of mentorship to gay youth. Few, if any, will have such a desire, and even if they do, everything from race to economic class to what the closet did to them will make the older generation unable to relate to the younger one.
It’s perfectly imaginable that false accusations of sexual abuse would occur in some of these “mentorships,” particularly from drug- and/or alcohol-addicted youth with various of the problems you already cited.
I also don’t think it’s fair to expect older generations to do any of this kind of work. We take one look at the young gay kids and think: What do I have in common with these people? And the kids think the same thing. I have a whole list of my own observations of such generational differences, all of which are forbidden topics on MetaFilter and would be shouted down instantly, so I’m not going to bother.
But I am going to tell you your project is surely doomed to failure and isn’t a good idea in the first place. Showing kids how people just like them! have turned out OK is a non-starter when neither side of the equation feels the other is remotely like them.
posted by joeclark at 11:47 AM on December 9, 2009
Another thank you for the question. One aspect that I think is important to keep in mind is that the queer youth of today is not the queer youth of even five years ago, let alone 15. That your client is queer and experiencing active homophobia does not necessarily mean she considers her sexuality to be a primary part of her identity. The speed at which the social, cultural etc climate has been changing during the past twenty years can, in my experience, lead to some serious queer generational dissonance.
I am also very tempted to agree with the warnings above about "the gay community" in terms of a) groups that aren't kosher and b) the enormous substance abuse issues we face. greekphilosophy hit a number of nails on the head. I especially agree with finding their thang, and then pointing out the queer group that does it, also with you (sorry) doing the work. You should have the personal contacts, know who to hook them up with etc. There's a huge difference between "You should think about joining that gay choir in town" and "Come listen to my friend Marias choir, I think you might like it".
My suggestion, and here comes my hobby horse, is to make this connection through work placements. A job in a gay-friendly café, or in a warehouse run by a queer owner might provide just the right amount of contact with the wider community so that they can choose themselves how much a part of that community they want to be.
Btw, dude, you really need to reformulate "plugging in with other women".
posted by Iteki at 2:35 PM on December 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
I am also very tempted to agree with the warnings above about "the gay community" in terms of a) groups that aren't kosher and b) the enormous substance abuse issues we face. greekphilosophy hit a number of nails on the head. I especially agree with finding their thang, and then pointing out the queer group that does it, also with you (sorry) doing the work. You should have the personal contacts, know who to hook them up with etc. There's a huge difference between "You should think about joining that gay choir in town" and "Come listen to my friend Marias choir, I think you might like it".
My suggestion, and here comes my hobby horse, is to make this connection through work placements. A job in a gay-friendly café, or in a warehouse run by a queer owner might provide just the right amount of contact with the wider community so that they can choose themselves how much a part of that community they want to be.
Btw, dude, you really need to reformulate "plugging in with other women".
posted by Iteki at 2:35 PM on December 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think it’s a romantic fantasy, along the lines of apprenticeship in the trades, that older gays are dying for the chance to provide some kind of mentorship to gay youth. Few, if any, will have such a desire, and even if they do, everything from race to economic class to what the closet did to them will make the older generation unable to relate to the younger one.
joeclark, some people do actually value inter-generational friendships, both in spite of the generation gap and because of it. But your cranky screed is kind of off-topic anyway, since The Straightener was asking about helping his clients connect with their peers.
posted by desuetude at 3:03 PM on December 9, 2009
joeclark, some people do actually value inter-generational friendships, both in spite of the generation gap and because of it. But your cranky screed is kind of off-topic anyway, since The Straightener was asking about helping his clients connect with their peers.
posted by desuetude at 3:03 PM on December 9, 2009
Mod note: A couple comments removed. Drop it, now. Email, metatalk, you know the drill.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:33 AM on December 10, 2009
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:33 AM on December 10, 2009
Response by poster: And okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but go hang out at Arch and Broad on Tuesday (or Wednesday, now I can't recall) evenings, and find out what event is being hosted at the JFK MHMR center. Whatever is going on there attracts at least four dozen, 17 year old, gay, African American boys.
Just wanted to follow up, and this is kind of hilarious because I've have been cruised in a very sort of forward but totally harmless way by this exact group of kids on many an evening (my office is right on Broad and Arch) so I knew exactly what you were talking about when you brought this up. I talked to my guy over at JFK and it turns out this is the Youth Health Empowerment Program mentioned in most of the links in this thread, and the Colours Organization is in JFK, too.
posted by The Straightener at 11:27 AM on December 10, 2009
Just wanted to follow up, and this is kind of hilarious because I've have been cruised in a very sort of forward but totally harmless way by this exact group of kids on many an evening (my office is right on Broad and Arch) so I knew exactly what you were talking about when you brought this up. I talked to my guy over at JFK and it turns out this is the Youth Health Empowerment Program mentioned in most of the links in this thread, and the Colours Organization is in JFK, too.
posted by The Straightener at 11:27 AM on December 10, 2009
I'm sincerely grateful for that follow-up, Straightener. I have been curious about that crowd since I moved to the neighborhood a couple years ago and first noticed them. They seem like a truly hilarious and sweet group of kids that are involved in *something* productive - though whatever that something might be I'm still not quite sure, even after clicking the link you provided. They're always practicing dance routines outside of the McDonalds and vamping up and down the cat- I mean, sidewalk. And making me wish that I had a group of silly gays at that age...
posted by greekphilosophy at 12:12 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by greekphilosophy at 12:12 PM on December 10, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Because seriously, the last thing I'd want if I were a young gay person headed towards those places would be to get plugged into the gay community. Certainly the massive stigma and risk of being a gay person in prison outweighs the help, however substantial, that gay and lesbian orgs could provide.
posted by downing street memo at 2:47 PM on December 8, 2009