Creepy Uncle or Worse?
May 12, 2009 9:28 PM Subscribe
What do I do about an uncle who my family suspects might be a stalker / child predator?
My mom's sister passed away 16 years ago and her odd, but nice husband has remained a part of our family despite not being a blood relation. In the past few years he's had a series of girlfriends that all seemed to be using him for money or to have a father figure in their lives (My uncle is nearing age 70.)
While on a visit home last month my uncle shared a few stories that led me to believe that some of his current relationships are far from healthy. He says he is in love with a 19 year-old waitress at a nearby restaurant. He carries around pictures of her from high school in his wallet. He eats at the restaurant almost every night and has taken his adult children there to meet her. To me, this just seems like my uncle is lonely and a little pathetic, but it gets worse.
My uncle also talked about how much he enjoys looking at younger women. He said that he is now going to his local park to photograph young women who are there jogging and hanging out. He takes the pictures without their permission. He claims they are college-aged, but since he's taking the pictures clandestinely, I don't think he's verifying that they are over 18. He also related a story of falling in love with a 7 year-old girl when he was in his twenties and said that he wanted to fall in love like that again.
All of these things combined make me very worried about my uncle. At the worst, he is a criminal and at the very best, I think he needs to get into therapy right away. The catch is, both of his children are estranged from him and everyone else in my family seems reluctant to get involved. I want to know what the Hivemind thinks I should do in this situation. Am I overreacting? Should I press my parents, along with my other aunts and uncles to say something to the uncle in question? Should I press one of his children to confront him? Are his stories worrisome enough that I should contact any authorities? Several of my cousins said that they found the situation funny, but I'm fearful that my uncle might be hurting himself or someone else. I want to take action, but I'm not sure what to do.
In case its relevant, my uncle is in Ohio, but I live several states away.
Throwaway e-mail at worriedniece@gmail.com
My mom's sister passed away 16 years ago and her odd, but nice husband has remained a part of our family despite not being a blood relation. In the past few years he's had a series of girlfriends that all seemed to be using him for money or to have a father figure in their lives (My uncle is nearing age 70.)
While on a visit home last month my uncle shared a few stories that led me to believe that some of his current relationships are far from healthy. He says he is in love with a 19 year-old waitress at a nearby restaurant. He carries around pictures of her from high school in his wallet. He eats at the restaurant almost every night and has taken his adult children there to meet her. To me, this just seems like my uncle is lonely and a little pathetic, but it gets worse.
My uncle also talked about how much he enjoys looking at younger women. He said that he is now going to his local park to photograph young women who are there jogging and hanging out. He takes the pictures without their permission. He claims they are college-aged, but since he's taking the pictures clandestinely, I don't think he's verifying that they are over 18. He also related a story of falling in love with a 7 year-old girl when he was in his twenties and said that he wanted to fall in love like that again.
All of these things combined make me very worried about my uncle. At the worst, he is a criminal and at the very best, I think he needs to get into therapy right away. The catch is, both of his children are estranged from him and everyone else in my family seems reluctant to get involved. I want to know what the Hivemind thinks I should do in this situation. Am I overreacting? Should I press my parents, along with my other aunts and uncles to say something to the uncle in question? Should I press one of his children to confront him? Are his stories worrisome enough that I should contact any authorities? Several of my cousins said that they found the situation funny, but I'm fearful that my uncle might be hurting himself or someone else. I want to take action, but I'm not sure what to do.
In case its relevant, my uncle is in Ohio, but I live several states away.
Throwaway e-mail at worriedniece@gmail.com
For what reason are his children estranged from him?
posted by so_gracefully at 9:52 PM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by so_gracefully at 9:52 PM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
You don't know that he is actually trying to have a creepy physical relationship with much younger women. Maybe he's just an old guy that dreams about younger women and perhaps blabs about it to the wrong people. I bet a lot of old guys fantasize about young women.
I'm not defending a penchant for seven year olds or anything, I just think that yeah, maybe you are overreacting a tinge. If he's carrying around pictures of a waitress, I'm guessing she gave them to him. He probably loves the thought of being in love with this young girl. She probably humors him. If it's not so innocent I'd assume the waitress wold take some action.
And hopefully when he was talking about that seven year old he meant fall in love [not in the same circumstance, but the same feeling] like that again.
Really, I bet you do have a slightly pervy uncle. There is some evidence there, but I'm hesitant to say you have enough evidence against him to have a really awkward family intervention and accuse him of stalking/being a predator. Does the whole family get the same vibe or is it just you? Perhaps someone in the fam could join him for dinner at the restaurant one night and gauge his creepy factor with the waitress? That might shed a little light on things. Just a thought.
posted by smeater44 at 10:30 PM on May 12, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'm not defending a penchant for seven year olds or anything, I just think that yeah, maybe you are overreacting a tinge. If he's carrying around pictures of a waitress, I'm guessing she gave them to him. He probably loves the thought of being in love with this young girl. She probably humors him. If it's not so innocent I'd assume the waitress wold take some action.
And hopefully when he was talking about that seven year old he meant fall in love [not in the same circumstance, but the same feeling] like that again.
Really, I bet you do have a slightly pervy uncle. There is some evidence there, but I'm hesitant to say you have enough evidence against him to have a really awkward family intervention and accuse him of stalking/being a predator. Does the whole family get the same vibe or is it just you? Perhaps someone in the fam could join him for dinner at the restaurant one night and gauge his creepy factor with the waitress? That might shed a little light on things. Just a thought.
posted by smeater44 at 10:30 PM on May 12, 2009 [5 favorites]
You may be overreacting, but it's impossible for anyone here to tell. What you've described could be the thoughts of a lonely and very odd man who is harmless to everyone.
If he is a pedophile, he's been a pedophile for all of his adult life. Either he has not acted on his urges for 50 years, or none of his victims have spoken up. The latter is possible, but I feel like it's unlikely.
In whatever case, I cannot see how you'd involve yourself. Especially since your chief concern seems to not be for your uncle, but for his imagined victims.
posted by TypographicalError at 10:30 PM on May 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
If he is a pedophile, he's been a pedophile for all of his adult life. Either he has not acted on his urges for 50 years, or none of his victims have spoken up. The latter is possible, but I feel like it's unlikely.
In whatever case, I cannot see how you'd involve yourself. Especially since your chief concern seems to not be for your uncle, but for his imagined victims.
posted by TypographicalError at 10:30 PM on May 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
I believe that the best thing to happen here is, as inkyr2 says, for a strong male that he knows and trusts to talk to him and say, “this isn't healthy.” The key, the goal which you should be keeping in mind, is to get him into therapy; a good therapist is the only person detached enough, uninvolved enough, and trained enough to know what to say to him and what to encourage him to do.
Also, please keep in mind the 'police equation.' The police equation is a calculation that, generally, adults living in civilized countries must be ready willing to make at a moment's notice in a range of circumstances spanning from traffic disputes to threats to crowd control. It means saying: which costs more in the long run? Letting the situation go by ignoring it; dealing with this thing here with friends we can trust and discretion that avoids futher embarrassment or legal entanglement; or calling the police.
You clearly have a sense of the police equation already here, but keeping it in mind will help you clarify it. You know that, on the 'con' side, you don't want to get your uncle in a heap of trouble if it isn't necessary; and I'm sure you realize that false accusations of pedophilia can be very destructive. But you also realize that pedophilia itself is more destructive. Part of being adult about this equation is knowing that police can be either utterly destructive or very helpful; more often, in my experience, it is the latter. In either case, there is very little to be lost if you walk into your local police station, tell them you have something important that you'd like to talk to someone about, and tell them that, while you're not ready to reveal his name yet, you have a relative who you're worried about because x happened and y and also z. You can ask them what you should do; their answer will most likely tell you if you can trust them and what the process will be like. Just remember, and keep asking yourself: ignore it, fix it myself, or call the cops; which costs more?
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 PM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
Also, please keep in mind the 'police equation.' The police equation is a calculation that, generally, adults living in civilized countries must be ready willing to make at a moment's notice in a range of circumstances spanning from traffic disputes to threats to crowd control. It means saying: which costs more in the long run? Letting the situation go by ignoring it; dealing with this thing here with friends we can trust and discretion that avoids futher embarrassment or legal entanglement; or calling the police.
You clearly have a sense of the police equation already here, but keeping it in mind will help you clarify it. You know that, on the 'con' side, you don't want to get your uncle in a heap of trouble if it isn't necessary; and I'm sure you realize that false accusations of pedophilia can be very destructive. But you also realize that pedophilia itself is more destructive. Part of being adult about this equation is knowing that police can be either utterly destructive or very helpful; more often, in my experience, it is the latter. In either case, there is very little to be lost if you walk into your local police station, tell them you have something important that you'd like to talk to someone about, and tell them that, while you're not ready to reveal his name yet, you have a relative who you're worried about because x happened and y and also z. You can ask them what you should do; their answer will most likely tell you if you can trust them and what the process will be like. Just remember, and keep asking yourself: ignore it, fix it myself, or call the cops; which costs more?
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 PM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
You sure those are the limits? At worst he's a criminal and at best he needs therapy? Sounds like you're just weirded out he has a crush on a 19 year old and have extrapolated that discomfort into a crime you can fret over. Honestly, it sounds like you're being a busybody. Ogling girls in the park is merely creepy when you're 25 but when you're 70 it's a sign of a criminally insane person that requires therapy?
I mean let's entertain this for a second. What's the worst a 70 year old man going to do (to anyone)? Do you believe he's going to get a gun perhaps (because he's not going to be able to physically overpower/catch them unaided unless he's Jack Lalane) and abduct children from a nearby playground (while the parents are looking the other way)?
Or is he more likely the kind of guy who is going to hit on the nurses in his old folks home?
Sure, your interpretation is possible but... god, are you really going to potentially ruin someone's life without any proof at all of wrongdoing? Maybe you spend some time with this guy before you call the cops...
posted by danny the boy at 11:12 PM on May 12, 2009 [16 favorites]
I mean let's entertain this for a second. What's the worst a 70 year old man going to do (to anyone)? Do you believe he's going to get a gun perhaps (because he's not going to be able to physically overpower/catch them unaided unless he's Jack Lalane) and abduct children from a nearby playground (while the parents are looking the other way)?
Or is he more likely the kind of guy who is going to hit on the nurses in his old folks home?
Sure, your interpretation is possible but... god, are you really going to potentially ruin someone's life without any proof at all of wrongdoing? Maybe you spend some time with this guy before you call the cops...
posted by danny the boy at 11:12 PM on May 12, 2009 [16 favorites]
Are you sure he isn't losing his mind? Highly inappropriate behavior and fantasies like this could be the early signs dementia or Alzheimer's. IANAD but I would get him to one.
posted by whoaali at 11:49 PM on May 12, 2009 [13 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 11:49 PM on May 12, 2009 [13 favorites]
I would see if you can refer him to a therapist. It might be nothing, but there are plenty of 70 year old pedophiles. Being old is not a bar to criminal activity. The estrangement of his children is also a warning flag.
That being said, nothing he has told you or said is against the law. The question is how much further is he taking it?
posted by Happydaz at 12:04 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
That being said, nothing he has told you or said is against the law. The question is how much further is he taking it?
posted by Happydaz at 12:04 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
None of this behavior actually sounds criminal to me, so I'm not sure where that part is from. There are a lot of red flags, though. Frankly, I'm not sure what the appropriate action is. I guess The honest, but wildly uncomfortable thing to do would be to ask him about. Not in a confrontational manner at first, but rather in a more concerned one. You don't want to make him defensive, and of course, if he's no worse than a sort of pathetic older man, there's no reason to make him feel worse. If he has committed a serious crime, you have to get him to see a therapist (who will report the crime), or report it yourself.
The absolute best option is if you can get him to see a therapist, and think he will put forth an effort in that setting, it would be the best, because the therapist (if good, and if your uncle cooperates at least a little) will know how to coax the real problem out, and if indeed your uncle has committed behavior that endangers children, the therapist is under obligation to report that to police. Frankly, if you're certain that no one is in danger, I would discourage calling the police, for a number of reason. For one, if you're wrong, it could still cause him a significant amount of trouble, and could negatively impact his life. For another, there's no guarantee the police will investigate, as they are very busy, and will typically go after the more clear-cut cases more aggressively. If they do investigate, he is likely to become defensive, and may very well escape entirely, if in fact he has committed a crime.
posted by !Jim at 12:12 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
The absolute best option is if you can get him to see a therapist, and think he will put forth an effort in that setting, it would be the best, because the therapist (if good, and if your uncle cooperates at least a little) will know how to coax the real problem out, and if indeed your uncle has committed behavior that endangers children, the therapist is under obligation to report that to police. Frankly, if you're certain that no one is in danger, I would discourage calling the police, for a number of reason. For one, if you're wrong, it could still cause him a significant amount of trouble, and could negatively impact his life. For another, there's no guarantee the police will investigate, as they are very busy, and will typically go after the more clear-cut cases more aggressively. If they do investigate, he is likely to become defensive, and may very well escape entirely, if in fact he has committed a crime.
If he is a pedophile, he's been a pedophile for all of his adult life. Either he has not acted on his urges for 50 years, or none of his victims have spoken up. The latter is possible, but I feel like it's unlikely.The latter case is actually quite common, as sex crimes are very underreported. I've heard a few stories of people who were molested by their parent or some other authority figure, and only after their parent's death, did the siblings talk to someone, or to each other about what their mother or father had done to them. To be very clear, I'm not saying that's what is happening hear, I'm just saying it's possible.
posted by !Jim at 12:12 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
What's the worst a 70 year old man going to do (to anyone)? Do you believe he's going to get a gun perhaps (because he's not going to be able to physically overpower/catch them unaided unless he's Jack Lalane) and abduct children from a nearby playground (while the parents are looking the other way)?A 70 year old can be plenty manipulative, and can use the inherent trust you're describing in this very paragraph to gain access to children. Again, I'm not saying this is what's happening here, I'm just saying to be careful about your assumptions.
posted by !Jim at 12:14 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm seconding whoaali's suggestion. He may have a brain problem, like an early stage of Alzheimer's. I would press local family members to get him to a physician for a checkup, to make sure he's ok. They could talk with the doctor before the checkup, to share their concerns that he's newly infatuated with younger women, to give the doctor ideas about what to check for.
If your mom and her sister were close, I'd also talk with her to get a sense of your uncle's history. Were there concerns in the past, when your aunt was alive, that your uncle was inappropriate with young girls? Your mom might know more about the family history, why his children are not in contact with him, and things that might shed more light into the situation. From what I understand, pedophilia doesn't just show up after 70 years (which is why I think that his brain needs to be checked out by a physician).
posted by Houstonian at 12:22 AM on May 13, 2009
If your mom and her sister were close, I'd also talk with her to get a sense of your uncle's history. Were there concerns in the past, when your aunt was alive, that your uncle was inappropriate with young girls? Your mom might know more about the family history, why his children are not in contact with him, and things that might shed more light into the situation. From what I understand, pedophilia doesn't just show up after 70 years (which is why I think that his brain needs to be checked out by a physician).
posted by Houstonian at 12:22 AM on May 13, 2009
danny the boy: I mean let's entertain this for a second. What's the worst a 70 year old man going to do (to anyone)? Do you believe he's going to get a gun perhaps (because he's not going to be able to physically overpower/catch them unaided unless he's Jack Lalane) and abduct children from a nearby playground (while the parents are looking the other way)? Or is he more likely the kind of guy who is going to hit on the nurses in his old folks home?
I've said before, and I will probably say again, that I hate to respond to a comment in ask.metafilter, but there are times when it's necessary, and this is one of them:
How many 70-year-old people do you actually know? Have you met very many 68-year-old men? I'm nearing thirty; I have a university advisor who's 69 who could certainly overpower me, and I'm not exactly a weak guy. 70 isn't 90, and a lot of guys I've seen in this age range happen to be, through genetic luck or through hard work, pretty strong and easily ready to handle themselves in a tight spot.
Sure, your interpretation is possible but... god, are you really going to potentially ruin someone's life without any proof at all of wrongdoing? Maybe you spend some time with this guy before you call the cops...
This is a common concern in these situations, but my own sense is that it's based on a false dichotomy. The choice is not, 'try to protect children from a guy who might be a pedophile' or 'ignore the feeling and we'll all be happy.' You can look into this in ways that won't 'potentially ruin' his life; we're not living in 1993, after all. The poster is not talking about writing out a press release.
posted by koeselitz at 1:09 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I've said before, and I will probably say again, that I hate to respond to a comment in ask.metafilter, but there are times when it's necessary, and this is one of them:
How many 70-year-old people do you actually know? Have you met very many 68-year-old men? I'm nearing thirty; I have a university advisor who's 69 who could certainly overpower me, and I'm not exactly a weak guy. 70 isn't 90, and a lot of guys I've seen in this age range happen to be, through genetic luck or through hard work, pretty strong and easily ready to handle themselves in a tight spot.
Sure, your interpretation is possible but... god, are you really going to potentially ruin someone's life without any proof at all of wrongdoing? Maybe you spend some time with this guy before you call the cops...
This is a common concern in these situations, but my own sense is that it's based on a false dichotomy. The choice is not, 'try to protect children from a guy who might be a pedophile' or 'ignore the feeling and we'll all be happy.' You can look into this in ways that won't 'potentially ruin' his life; we're not living in 1993, after all. The poster is not talking about writing out a press release.
posted by koeselitz at 1:09 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I assure you it is quite normal to find 18-to-20-year-old women attractive.
posted by grobstein at 1:24 AM on May 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 1:24 AM on May 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
I can see why you're finding this so hard to call. If he wasn't taking pictures down at the park, I'd think you were overreacting. The girl at the diner, the crushes, even the inappropriate sorts of disclosures to you might be just his attempts to connect. His kids don't talk to him, and he's hungry for company. You might think the series of 18-20 year old girls is creepy and pathetic, but he's an adult, and so are they. Unless he's crossed the line into psychosis, he doubtless knows he doesn't have a chance with these girls without whipping out his wallet. Really, though, he's just indulging in the same sort of fantasy that men who form emotional relationships with prostitutes or strippers might form. Sad, yes, but he's made a choice to chase people and relationships that have little to no possibility of being real.
However, the pictures (and the fact that he's telling you, his niece, about things approaching his sex life) are crossing lines. I'm very close to my uncle, and have seen him in all sorts of situations that make me think of him as more of a friend than an older male relative - but he would never in a million years tell me about who or what he's attracted to, or any other part of his sexual life. In theory, I wouldn't be bothered by him doing so, but I think he would be. There are boundaries with relatives. I don't know what your relationship with him is like, but I'd say that he's crossing them with you. I'm not trying to squick you out, but did he tell you who that 7 year old girl was?
That being said, I have noticed with older men that when they talk about younger women in an, er, admiring sort of way that it has elements to it that similar comments from a younger man don't. The younger man knows he might not have a chance with her. The older man is pretty much convinced it's impossible, but they do it anyway. Sometimes, in the very old (73 plus), I've noticed that some of the men tend to fetishise youth that sounds vaguely sexual, but is really just a longing for the crush of youthful bodies in hugs, the possibilities of youth, the innocence. It can come across as mildly creepy and slavering, but it's actually pretty innocent. I don't know if that's what your uncle is doing, but I'm just putting it out there for you to consider.
Have you seen the pics? Will he show them to you? No? I'd think about calling the police. Just if an officer came to talk to him about taking pictures in the park, and about privacy, etc, it might help him realise the violation/danger involved. If he would show you the pics, I'd think you could judge the content yourself, and act accordingly.
If he crosses the line with this waitress, she will call the cops herself. Your uncle is old, but he isn't daft. If he goes in to the same diner every day, he isn't going to foul his own door step by crossing that line.
posted by Grrlscout at 3:13 AM on May 13, 2009 [6 favorites]
However, the pictures (and the fact that he's telling you, his niece, about things approaching his sex life) are crossing lines. I'm very close to my uncle, and have seen him in all sorts of situations that make me think of him as more of a friend than an older male relative - but he would never in a million years tell me about who or what he's attracted to, or any other part of his sexual life. In theory, I wouldn't be bothered by him doing so, but I think he would be. There are boundaries with relatives. I don't know what your relationship with him is like, but I'd say that he's crossing them with you. I'm not trying to squick you out, but did he tell you who that 7 year old girl was?
That being said, I have noticed with older men that when they talk about younger women in an, er, admiring sort of way that it has elements to it that similar comments from a younger man don't. The younger man knows he might not have a chance with her. The older man is pretty much convinced it's impossible, but they do it anyway. Sometimes, in the very old (73 plus), I've noticed that some of the men tend to fetishise youth that sounds vaguely sexual, but is really just a longing for the crush of youthful bodies in hugs, the possibilities of youth, the innocence. It can come across as mildly creepy and slavering, but it's actually pretty innocent. I don't know if that's what your uncle is doing, but I'm just putting it out there for you to consider.
Have you seen the pics? Will he show them to you? No? I'd think about calling the police. Just if an officer came to talk to him about taking pictures in the park, and about privacy, etc, it might help him realise the violation/danger involved. If he would show you the pics, I'd think you could judge the content yourself, and act accordingly.
If he crosses the line with this waitress, she will call the cops herself. Your uncle is old, but he isn't daft. If he goes in to the same diner every day, he isn't going to foul his own door step by crossing that line.
posted by Grrlscout at 3:13 AM on May 13, 2009 [6 favorites]
Grrlscout, excellent answer. Kudos.
I think the strongest leg you have to stand on here, in terms of getting social services and/or the law involved, is the "harm to himself or others" argument. Perhaps it would be useful to you to sit down and clarify what that means to you:
"I'm concerned my uncle is involved in relationships in which he's being taken advantage of financially. He's on a fixed income and I'm worried he won't have money for food/shelter."
"I'm concerned that my uncle is indulging in behaviours that could potentially get him into trouble, ie, photographing young women in the park without their permission."
Once you've solidified your concerns, perhaps you might contact Adult Protective Services in his Ohio town. They may be able to help you - if not, they may be able to direct you elsewhere.
One other quick thought:
Or is he more likely the kind of guy who is going to hit on the nurses in his old folks home?
Mate, I'm a nurse. I can assure you that I no more welcome being sexually harassed in my work place by 70 year old males than you would.
posted by arachnid at 3:23 AM on May 13, 2009
I think the strongest leg you have to stand on here, in terms of getting social services and/or the law involved, is the "harm to himself or others" argument. Perhaps it would be useful to you to sit down and clarify what that means to you:
"I'm concerned my uncle is involved in relationships in which he's being taken advantage of financially. He's on a fixed income and I'm worried he won't have money for food/shelter."
"I'm concerned that my uncle is indulging in behaviours that could potentially get him into trouble, ie, photographing young women in the park without their permission."
Once you've solidified your concerns, perhaps you might contact Adult Protective Services in his Ohio town. They may be able to help you - if not, they may be able to direct you elsewhere.
One other quick thought:
Or is he more likely the kind of guy who is going to hit on the nurses in his old folks home?
Mate, I'm a nurse. I can assure you that I no more welcome being sexually harassed in my work place by 70 year old males than you would.
posted by arachnid at 3:23 AM on May 13, 2009
Ogling girls in the park is merely creepy when you're 25 but when you're 70 it's a sign of a criminally insane person that requires therapy?
Having/needing therapy doesn't make someone criminally insane.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 3:30 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Having/needing therapy doesn't make someone criminally insane.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 3:30 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
What's the worst a 70 year old man going to do (to anyone)?
I was molested several times by an 80-year old man when I was quite young... molesters don't use muscle, they use the social pressure of the status of an elder to a young child and it's easy enough for them to be disconnected enough from the world in general that they're both incredibly lonely and totally out of sight of the boundaries of proper behavior.
Not saying at all that your uncle is doing such things - sounds like he's got a bit of a youth obsession going on, but it's directed at girls who are nominally women and while a tad pervy (taking pictures in the park, ew) seems to be more of a fetish than an acted-upon habit.
posted by Billegible at 3:48 AM on May 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
I was molested several times by an 80-year old man when I was quite young... molesters don't use muscle, they use the social pressure of the status of an elder to a young child and it's easy enough for them to be disconnected enough from the world in general that they're both incredibly lonely and totally out of sight of the boundaries of proper behavior.
Not saying at all that your uncle is doing such things - sounds like he's got a bit of a youth obsession going on, but it's directed at girls who are nominally women and while a tad pervy (taking pictures in the park, ew) seems to be more of a fetish than an acted-upon habit.
posted by Billegible at 3:48 AM on May 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
* it's easy enough for them to be disconnected enough from the world in general that they're both incredibly lonely and totally out of sight of the boundaries of proper behavior.
Er, easy enough for old folks to be disonnected. Not molesters as a species.
posted by Billegible at 3:49 AM on May 13, 2009
Er, easy enough for old folks to be disonnected. Not molesters as a species.
posted by Billegible at 3:49 AM on May 13, 2009
He eats at the restaurant almost every night and has taken his adult children there to meet her.
The catch is, both of his children are estranged from him
Point of clarification: Is he estranged from his children or not?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:09 AM on May 13, 2009
The catch is, both of his children are estranged from him
Point of clarification: Is he estranged from his children or not?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:09 AM on May 13, 2009
Let's play a game I like to call, "What if he were twenty?"
So.
He says he is in love with a 19 year-old waitress at a nearby restaurant.
What if he were twenty?
He carries around pictures of her from high school in his wallet.
What if he were twenty?
He said that he is now going to his local park to photograph young women who are there jogging and hanging out.
What if he were twenty?
He takes the pictures without their permission.
Newsflash: you don't need people's permission to take their photographs when they're outside. I know, scary stuff. Oh, and what if he were twenty?
I don't think he's verifying that they are over 18.
Well let's make this easy: do they have breasts? If he's taking pictures of girls with breasts, that means not a perv. Again, what if he were twenty?
He also related a story of falling in love with a 7 year-old girl when he was in his twenties and said that he wanted to fall in love like that again.
That's a little weird. Even if he were twenty.
At the worst, he is a criminal and at the very best, I think he needs to get into therapy right away.
No, at worst, he's Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, and has ventured on to our corporeal plane to wreak havoc and despair. At best, he's completely normal, a bit lustful, and too old to do anything about it. Welcome to the human condition.
Are his stories worrisome enough that I should contact any authorities? Several of my cousins said that they found the situation funny, but I'm fearful that my uncle might be hurting himself or someone else. I want to take action, but I'm not sure what to do.
If you think he's actually hurting someone, you should call the police and be prepared to explain what evidence has led you to that conclusion. If, on the other hand, you'd just like ol' Uncle Crochety to quietly go away somewhere he can't be seen and leave all the young people alone, well... sorry to say, but you're a raving hypocrite. Things that make your dick hard at twenty will still make your dick hard at 70.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:38 AM on May 13, 2009 [15 favorites]
So.
He says he is in love with a 19 year-old waitress at a nearby restaurant.
What if he were twenty?
He carries around pictures of her from high school in his wallet.
What if he were twenty?
He said that he is now going to his local park to photograph young women who are there jogging and hanging out.
What if he were twenty?
He takes the pictures without their permission.
Newsflash: you don't need people's permission to take their photographs when they're outside. I know, scary stuff. Oh, and what if he were twenty?
I don't think he's verifying that they are over 18.
Well let's make this easy: do they have breasts? If he's taking pictures of girls with breasts, that means not a perv. Again, what if he were twenty?
He also related a story of falling in love with a 7 year-old girl when he was in his twenties and said that he wanted to fall in love like that again.
That's a little weird. Even if he were twenty.
At the worst, he is a criminal and at the very best, I think he needs to get into therapy right away.
No, at worst, he's Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, and has ventured on to our corporeal plane to wreak havoc and despair. At best, he's completely normal, a bit lustful, and too old to do anything about it. Welcome to the human condition.
Are his stories worrisome enough that I should contact any authorities? Several of my cousins said that they found the situation funny, but I'm fearful that my uncle might be hurting himself or someone else. I want to take action, but I'm not sure what to do.
If you think he's actually hurting someone, you should call the police and be prepared to explain what evidence has led you to that conclusion. If, on the other hand, you'd just like ol' Uncle Crochety to quietly go away somewhere he can't be seen and leave all the young people alone, well... sorry to say, but you're a raving hypocrite. Things that make your dick hard at twenty will still make your dick hard at 70.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:38 AM on May 13, 2009 [15 favorites]
Senility, rather than criminality, might be the explanation. Monitor inappropriate behavior and impaired judgment. If the person begins to act inappropriately or significantly out of character in social situations, he or she may be showing signs of senile dementia. He needs to be seen by his doctor with someone from the family there, too.
posted by Carol Anne at 5:26 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Carol Anne at 5:26 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
He says he is in love with a 19 year-old waitress at a nearby restaurant. He carries around pictures of her from high school in his wallet.
Why don't you talk to to the waitress, since she sees him almost everyday? A sort of "is my uncle really bothering you? I can have a few words with him..."
She'll either tell you that he seems like a harmless old flirt that she enjoys engaging in conversation, or that she sees him as that slightly pervy guy she has to put up with every night.
Also, did she give him her high school pictures, or did he go to the library and clip them from a yearbook or some old newspaper sports story featuring her? This might also be a good clue.
This probably won't give you enough information to act on either way, but at least you'll have a few more pieces of the big picture.
posted by mikepop at 5:34 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Why don't you talk to to the waitress, since she sees him almost everyday? A sort of "is my uncle really bothering you? I can have a few words with him..."
She'll either tell you that he seems like a harmless old flirt that she enjoys engaging in conversation, or that she sees him as that slightly pervy guy she has to put up with every night.
Also, did she give him her high school pictures, or did he go to the library and clip them from a yearbook or some old newspaper sports story featuring her? This might also be a good clue.
This probably won't give you enough information to act on either way, but at least you'll have a few more pieces of the big picture.
posted by mikepop at 5:34 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Well let's make this easy: do they have breasts? If he's taking pictures of girls with breasts, that means not a perv. Again, what if he were twenty?
Sorry, but 10 year old girls have breasts these days. Even at twenty, that's pervy.
posted by archimago at 6:18 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sorry, but 10 year old girls have breasts these days. Even at twenty, that's pervy.
posted by archimago at 6:18 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I was also going to suggest that you or someone (perhaps the adult children he may or may not be estranged from, but who have met her) talk to the waitress and see what HER reaction is. If she thinks it's no big deal, you can probably back off. If she seems grateful that someone's noticed he's crossing a line, you should mention this to his doctor. His behavior seems pretty textbook Alzheimer's to me--inappropriate talk to certain people (talking about his sex life with his niece qualifies here), relationships rooted in fantasy rather than reality, etc.
I'm leaning towards harmless but addled, myself, but you won't know until you look into this further. Don't automatically assume he's a criminal and treat him accordingly.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 6:29 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm leaning towards harmless but addled, myself, but you won't know until you look into this further. Don't automatically assume he's a criminal and treat him accordingly.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 6:29 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing.
He hasn't done anything criminal.
What he's done is in poor taste and inappropriate,
but you have no real reason to call the cops,
and they're not really going to be too interested in your uncle.
That disclosure about him being twenty and in love
with a seven year old girl is certainly disturbing, but
being 'in love with' is much different than 'having sex with'.
If you could get him to disclose more about this relationship,
then you might have an actionable confession, if this girl
indeed is real, and is willing to press charges. But is there
a statute of limitations in some states on sexual abuse?
I would investigate further, but obliquely.
Find out why his family is estranged from him.
Calling the cops is the last thing I would do.
Even taking pictures without permission in a public
park, while gross, is completely legal, unless it was
like, up a skirt.
posted by Sully at 6:46 AM on May 13, 2009
He hasn't done anything criminal.
What he's done is in poor taste and inappropriate,
but you have no real reason to call the cops,
and they're not really going to be too interested in your uncle.
That disclosure about him being twenty and in love
with a seven year old girl is certainly disturbing, but
being 'in love with' is much different than 'having sex with'.
If you could get him to disclose more about this relationship,
then you might have an actionable confession, if this girl
indeed is real, and is willing to press charges. But is there
a statute of limitations in some states on sexual abuse?
I would investigate further, but obliquely.
Find out why his family is estranged from him.
Calling the cops is the last thing I would do.
Even taking pictures without permission in a public
park, while gross, is completely legal, unless it was
like, up a skirt.
posted by Sully at 6:46 AM on May 13, 2009
Aside from one strange and difficult to interpret comment about being in love with a seven-year old (and sometimes the "being in love" feeling can be non-sexual - I get intellectual crushes on people), your uncle is showing interest in post-pubescent women (and yes, 16-18 year olds are sexually mature women, even if they are emotionally immature teenagers). This is NORMAL, and not criminal. In fact, in many places in the world (including Canada), he could go ahead and date a 17-year-old, and marry her, and it would all be above board and legal.
If your uncle starts to show interest in 12-year olds, or you find out something more serious about that 7-year-old, then worry. But all of his other actions indicate that he's just straight.
posted by jb at 7:37 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
If your uncle starts to show interest in 12-year olds, or you find out something more serious about that 7-year-old, then worry. But all of his other actions indicate that he's just straight.
posted by jb at 7:37 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sorry, but 10 year old girls have breasts these days. Even at twenty, that's pervy.
posted by archimago at 9:18 AM on May 13 [+] [!]
They don't look the same. I know kids who have developed early, and most still really look like kids. At most, they look like they are 14 at age 10.
But in this case, he's interested in a 19-year old.
posted by jb at 7:39 AM on May 13, 2009
posted by archimago at 9:18 AM on May 13 [+] [!]
They don't look the same. I know kids who have developed early, and most still really look like kids. At most, they look like they are 14 at age 10.
But in this case, he's interested in a 19-year old.
posted by jb at 7:39 AM on May 13, 2009
I wonder if there is a reason why he feels the need to tell you. Perhaps he feels that his behaviour is a bit odd, and wants to know what you think, as someone who is possibly around the age of the waitress.
posted by mippy at 7:55 AM on May 13, 2009
posted by mippy at 7:55 AM on May 13, 2009
The very fact that you're considering talking to the police, and that people are advising you to do so, just to see if they can help, is frankly the most frightening thing about this whole question.
I can assure you, if you walk into a police station and start talking about possible pedophilia, in this culture, in this day and age, you will be setting a wildfire that will burn unpredictably through your family for years to come and will destroy lives, possibly several.
It's kind of like going to see your pastor in Massachusetts in the 1690s and telling him you're afraid your uncle may be dabbling in witchcraft and does he think it's anything to worry about.
Basically nthing Don't Do That unless you literally find proof of actual molestation of children (as opposed to watching young adult women). At that point you're still going to be setting a wildfire that will burn through your family for years, but you'll really have no choice.
posted by Naberius at 8:20 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
I can assure you, if you walk into a police station and start talking about possible pedophilia, in this culture, in this day and age, you will be setting a wildfire that will burn unpredictably through your family for years to come and will destroy lives, possibly several.
It's kind of like going to see your pastor in Massachusetts in the 1690s and telling him you're afraid your uncle may be dabbling in witchcraft and does he think it's anything to worry about.
Basically nthing Don't Do That unless you literally find proof of actual molestation of children (as opposed to watching young adult women). At that point you're still going to be setting a wildfire that will burn through your family for years, but you'll really have no choice.
posted by Naberius at 8:20 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Is there really nobody in the family who can tell this guy he's being inappropriate? Can your dad, for instance, take him aside and say "Dude, it's really not cool to take photos of girls in the park--if it turns out one of them is a very-mature-looking 12-year-old, you're going to be in a world of hurt"?
Yes, 70-year-old men can be child molesters. I know this first-hand, sadly enough.
But to be honest, I'm not hearing "child molestation" here, except for the "I was in love with a 7-year-old" craziness. If young women are taking advantage of him, that's his problem. If he's snapping photos of strange young women in the park, that could also become his problem if they find out and are upset (and worse, if they're very young and their parents find out and are upset). I don't see anything that would necessitate police involvement, unless you're leaving something significant out.
The thing that stands out for me is that your uncle is being bizarrely inappropriate to talk about this shit with you. Seriously, on what planet is it cool for someone to talk with their niece about all the hot young chicks they ogle? I'd tell him to shut the fuck up the next time he tried to bring up this topic with you.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:53 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Yes, 70-year-old men can be child molesters. I know this first-hand, sadly enough.
But to be honest, I'm not hearing "child molestation" here, except for the "I was in love with a 7-year-old" craziness. If young women are taking advantage of him, that's his problem. If he's snapping photos of strange young women in the park, that could also become his problem if they find out and are upset (and worse, if they're very young and their parents find out and are upset). I don't see anything that would necessitate police involvement, unless you're leaving something significant out.
The thing that stands out for me is that your uncle is being bizarrely inappropriate to talk about this shit with you. Seriously, on what planet is it cool for someone to talk with their niece about all the hot young chicks they ogle? I'd tell him to shut the fuck up the next time he tried to bring up this topic with you.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:53 AM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Agreed this is too creepy. Have you considered that he may be suffering the early effects of Alzheimers? Five years before my mum was diagnosed, she started behaving oddly. Even after she was obviously ill, it took a couple of months of in-patient care with psychiatric gerontologists to figure out exactly what was wrong. In-patient because she had to be persuaded to eat, that no one was trying to poison her. Apparently the symptoms of Alzheimers are different in the beginning depending on what part of the brain is first affected. They told me we were lucky that she didn't manefest as dancing naked on the lawn. As it was, my 75 year-old mum lost her inhibitions and said/did/took whatever she felt like, much like your average 3 year-old. If this behaviour is new, you might want to consider that he's literally losing his mind.
posted by x46 at 9:23 AM on May 13, 2009
posted by x46 at 9:23 AM on May 13, 2009
It sounds to me that unless this behavior is new and out of character (in which case, see previous commenters on Senile Dementia/Alzheimers), what you have here is a classic dirty old man.
Sorry, but 10 year old girls have breasts these days. Even at twenty, that's pervy.
I think in this case he using the word 'perv' to mean pedophile. Just being attracted to girls (or boys) who are under the legally defined age of consent doesn't make him a pedophile. Whether that makes him a 'perv' or not is purely subjective.
Yes and....? This is all legal, socially acceptable behavior.
Legal, yes. Socially acceptable, thats more up for debate but I'd say no, not really. Taking pictures of people without their permission is creepy but as you point out not illegal (probably anyway, privacy laws vary). Dirty old man taking pictures of young women jogging is a lot different to college student doing a street photographic project or commercial photographer taking scenic shots of the park for a brochure or something.
posted by missmagenta at 10:11 AM on May 13, 2009
Sorry, but 10 year old girls have breasts these days. Even at twenty, that's pervy.
I think in this case he using the word 'perv' to mean pedophile. Just being attracted to girls (or boys) who are under the legally defined age of consent doesn't make him a pedophile. Whether that makes him a 'perv' or not is purely subjective.
Yes and....? This is all legal, socially acceptable behavior.
Legal, yes. Socially acceptable, thats more up for debate but I'd say no, not really. Taking pictures of people without their permission is creepy but as you point out not illegal (probably anyway, privacy laws vary). Dirty old man taking pictures of young women jogging is a lot different to college student doing a street photographic project or commercial photographer taking scenic shots of the park for a brochure or something.
posted by missmagenta at 10:11 AM on May 13, 2009
We live in a society that is completely and truly irrational when it comes to children & sex. So many of the comments in this thread are basically saying he needs help, not for anything he's DONE, but for something you, internet-forum-guy, suspect third-hand that he's THINKING.
This is why it's impossible for a grown man in this country to interact with anyone under the age of 18 without being worried that someone else might misinterpret that as predatory behavior, and why clerks at walgreens are having grandmothers arrested for taking pictures of their grandkids in the bath.
This is why koeselitz's suggestion that you stroll down to your local constabulary and tell them that 'I have a... uh friend... that I think has a problem with little kids' literally made me LOL. I mean the best result of that interaction is you getting yelled at for wasting their time, and the worst is you ignite a witchhunt that engulfs you in addition to your whole family.
Yes molestation happens, and it is done by 70 year olds. But that guy smiling at your kid? There's a slight chance he might just be a nice guy.
SPEND TIME WITH THE GUY AND FIND OUT BEFORE YOU CALL IN THE SWAT TEAM
posted by danny the boy at 10:29 AM on May 13, 2009
This is why it's impossible for a grown man in this country to interact with anyone under the age of 18 without being worried that someone else might misinterpret that as predatory behavior, and why clerks at walgreens are having grandmothers arrested for taking pictures of their grandkids in the bath.
This is why koeselitz's suggestion that you stroll down to your local constabulary and tell them that 'I have a... uh friend... that I think has a problem with little kids' literally made me LOL. I mean the best result of that interaction is you getting yelled at for wasting their time, and the worst is you ignite a witchhunt that engulfs you in addition to your whole family.
Yes molestation happens, and it is done by 70 year olds. But that guy smiling at your kid? There's a slight chance he might just be a nice guy.
SPEND TIME WITH THE GUY AND FIND OUT BEFORE YOU CALL IN THE SWAT TEAM
posted by danny the boy at 10:29 AM on May 13, 2009
Yes molestation happens, and it is done by 70 year olds. But that guy smiling at your kid? There's a slight chance he might just be a nice guy.
The guy taking photos of strange teenagers in the park and then ogling them later, and talking about ogling them with his niece, is not "just being a nice guy."
He's not breaking any laws, but he's not just being a nice guy. He's being creepy and inappropriate, and someone (a friend or family member) should let him know that. "Creepy and inappropriate" is not illegal, which is why getting police involved would be ridiculous and counterproductive at best, but it's still something someone should let him know needs to stop.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:45 AM on May 13, 2009
The guy taking photos of strange teenagers in the park and then ogling them later, and talking about ogling them with his niece, is not "just being a nice guy."
He's not breaking any laws, but he's not just being a nice guy. He's being creepy and inappropriate, and someone (a friend or family member) should let him know that. "Creepy and inappropriate" is not illegal, which is why getting police involved would be ridiculous and counterproductive at best, but it's still something someone should let him know needs to stop.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:45 AM on May 13, 2009
He's not breaking any laws, but he's not just being a nice guy. He's being creepy and inappropriate
Taking pictures of people in public is not creepy or inappropriate.
posted by TypographicalError at 12:10 PM on May 13, 2009
Taking pictures of people in public is not creepy or inappropriate.
posted by TypographicalError at 12:10 PM on May 13, 2009
Rather than going to the police and starting a wildfire, why don't you just hire a local private detective to follow him around for a week or two? That would get you more information on his activities and you'd be better able to decide what to do from there.
posted by exphysicist345 at 6:30 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by exphysicist345 at 6:30 PM on May 13, 2009
You need to collect more information.
Whomever said it above - start with the waitress. She's going to be able to tell you a lot.
posted by RajahKing at 10:20 AM on May 14, 2009
Whomever said it above - start with the waitress. She's going to be able to tell you a lot.
posted by RajahKing at 10:20 AM on May 14, 2009
I am seeing a lot of ageist comments here; from "he's old, what's the worst he could do?" to "he's old, this behavior is creepy for an old man." Elderly people are really not different than most younger adults in terms of behavior and values. Elderly people think, feel, have sex, cry, feel lonely, and most of the things everybody else does. I think any decision that factors in his age with be a clear injustice. I like the idea of applying his behavior to a younger adult. That said, trust your instincts, but try to probe for more information. Good luck.
posted by mynameismandab at 1:25 AM on May 15, 2009
posted by mynameismandab at 1:25 AM on May 15, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by inkyr2 at 9:49 PM on May 12, 2009