Why do I only attract women who aren't into commitment?
November 18, 2008 6:49 AM Subscribe
Why do I only attract women who aren't into commitment? (Or who are poly, which I'm not. Or, sadly, who are just insane, and not insane in a "hi, I'm a misogynist who thinks that women who it doesn't work out with must be nuts" way, but insane in a "wait, you've actually spent time in a psych ward?!" way.)
I'm a single late-20's urban heterosexual male who is bad at wooing women, but I have enough attractive qualities (at least for certain niche markets, that I happen to like -- see details below) that fairly often I don't have to do so.
So the following pretty much summarizes my entire dating history:
1) Woman throws herself at me.
2) I find woman attractive (because, as noted, I like most of the niche market of women who prefer what I offer), get involved.
3) Blazing hot and fast romance.
4) Woman turns out not to be into commitment/looking for FWB, or polyamorous (which I can't do), or sometimes just downright insane. Unfortunately, I like serious, committed relationships. With sane women.
5) Disaster.
6) Repeat steps 1-6.
Often, it seems, these women see me as some kind of a conquest -- I seem to attract a lot of women who are insecure about and/or have a lot of their self-worth wrapped up into their ability to attract men. They seem to lose interest after they've successfully attracted/bedded me, and/or immediately start chasing other guys.
This has happened too often to be a coincidence. At this point, the flaw is obviously with me.
Help?! This has simply got to stop, stat! I want a normal relationship, damnit. Like everyone else I know.
The simple answer might be "try the women who don't throw themselves at you." Except, well, I seem to be a very niche commodity. That is, women will invariably either throw themselves at me or not be interested in me at all. I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me... does "wooing" ability, as a friend of mine recently suggested, actually make a difference in this sort of thing?
Details: I'm not particularly hunkey -- I'm pretty decent looking, but overweight. General consensus, plus experience from non-overweight periods, is that I'll be somewhat-to-significantly better-looking than average once I get into better shape. I'm sort of ostentatiously intelligent and tend to pick up something like high social status in most groups that I'm in. I'm pretty charming when my personality meshes with the woman, but can grate on (or simply have nothing to talk about with) those who don't. I don't dress particularly well or particularly badly. I'm a poor graduate student with moderately large future income potential, but I'm pretty sure money hasn't been a serious issue for any woman I've been involved with. I'm also the sort of guy who has almost all female friends, etc.
My niche market tends to be very smart (though often -- hell, always --, alas, insecure about it) and very attractive (but unconventionally so) nerdy, independent, feminist, usually-slightly-to-very-kinky, creative, funny women. All of which I like quite a lot, but for the whole inability to commit/frequent insanity thing. These women invariably have dozens of other guys hovering around, which doesn't help.
This post sounds totally egotistical, but, well, since it's an anon post, I don't really want to leave out detail. Sorry.
I'm a single late-20's urban heterosexual male who is bad at wooing women, but I have enough attractive qualities (at least for certain niche markets, that I happen to like -- see details below) that fairly often I don't have to do so.
So the following pretty much summarizes my entire dating history:
1) Woman throws herself at me.
2) I find woman attractive (because, as noted, I like most of the niche market of women who prefer what I offer), get involved.
3) Blazing hot and fast romance.
4) Woman turns out not to be into commitment/looking for FWB, or polyamorous (which I can't do), or sometimes just downright insane. Unfortunately, I like serious, committed relationships. With sane women.
5) Disaster.
6) Repeat steps 1-6.
Often, it seems, these women see me as some kind of a conquest -- I seem to attract a lot of women who are insecure about and/or have a lot of their self-worth wrapped up into their ability to attract men. They seem to lose interest after they've successfully attracted/bedded me, and/or immediately start chasing other guys.
This has happened too often to be a coincidence. At this point, the flaw is obviously with me.
Help?! This has simply got to stop, stat! I want a normal relationship, damnit. Like everyone else I know.
The simple answer might be "try the women who don't throw themselves at you." Except, well, I seem to be a very niche commodity. That is, women will invariably either throw themselves at me or not be interested in me at all. I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me... does "wooing" ability, as a friend of mine recently suggested, actually make a difference in this sort of thing?
Details: I'm not particularly hunkey -- I'm pretty decent looking, but overweight. General consensus, plus experience from non-overweight periods, is that I'll be somewhat-to-significantly better-looking than average once I get into better shape. I'm sort of ostentatiously intelligent and tend to pick up something like high social status in most groups that I'm in. I'm pretty charming when my personality meshes with the woman, but can grate on (or simply have nothing to talk about with) those who don't. I don't dress particularly well or particularly badly. I'm a poor graduate student with moderately large future income potential, but I'm pretty sure money hasn't been a serious issue for any woman I've been involved with. I'm also the sort of guy who has almost all female friends, etc.
My niche market tends to be very smart (though often -- hell, always --, alas, insecure about it) and very attractive (but unconventionally so) nerdy, independent, feminist, usually-slightly-to-very-kinky, creative, funny women. All of which I like quite a lot, but for the whole inability to commit/frequent insanity thing. These women invariably have dozens of other guys hovering around, which doesn't help.
This post sounds totally egotistical, but, well, since it's an anon post, I don't really want to leave out detail. Sorry.
Step 3 might very well be the problem. Take things more slowly. You'll be able to determine whether the women you date are interested in merely flings or something more permanent.
posted by decathecting at 7:04 AM on November 18, 2008
posted by decathecting at 7:04 AM on November 18, 2008
I don't have the time to give a detailed answer right now, but for starters, I would suggest stopping talking about relationships and people as "markets" and "commodities". They are neither.
Woman throws herself at me
You lucky dog. Seriously though, perhaps you should start doing the wooing. It sounds like they're selecting you and you're going along with it. Perhaps you should strike up a conversation with a cute, but quieter, less demonstrative type of girl.
posted by idiomatika at 7:04 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Woman throws herself at me
You lucky dog. Seriously though, perhaps you should start doing the wooing. It sounds like they're selecting you and you're going along with it. Perhaps you should strike up a conversation with a cute, but quieter, less demonstrative type of girl.
posted by idiomatika at 7:04 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
As one of those women who actually prefers commitment, I'd have to say a) widen your pool and b) don't focus on commitment.
On the first point, why not let yourself be open to women who don't fit the hot-librarian stereotype? Give people a chance, whether that chance is a first ("I wouldn't normally talk to/date this person, but what the heck?") or second ("Yeah, she was nice, but kind of nervous and dorky..."). You know that whole Alyson Hannigan "This one time? At band camp?" thing from American Pie? Look what Jim got when he actually stopped to listen: phenomenal sex and two sequels. Or should it have been the other way around? Either way: rrrowr.
On the second point: if you want commitment, forget about what you think that means and just show that you care about things other than the right-now. Don't just compliment because she looks good; compliment because you can't help it and you want her to feel good. Pay attention to what matters to her and compliment her on THAT, and only because you know how good it would feel if she did the same for you. Look out for the little things, like who the people are in her office or what she doesn't like to eat.
Basically, consider all the things you get indignant or sensitive about in yourself, especially when you think nobody pays attention to them, and remember that she's probably got those things too. Let her relax and not be "on" when she's around you, and you'll both find out how nice it is to just "be." Isn't that what you'd get in a long-term relationship? BING! You're almost there.
posted by Madamina at 7:10 AM on November 18, 2008
On the first point, why not let yourself be open to women who don't fit the hot-librarian stereotype? Give people a chance, whether that chance is a first ("I wouldn't normally talk to/date this person, but what the heck?") or second ("Yeah, she was nice, but kind of nervous and dorky..."). You know that whole Alyson Hannigan "This one time? At band camp?" thing from American Pie? Look what Jim got when he actually stopped to listen: phenomenal sex and two sequels. Or should it have been the other way around? Either way: rrrowr.
On the second point: if you want commitment, forget about what you think that means and just show that you care about things other than the right-now. Don't just compliment because she looks good; compliment because you can't help it and you want her to feel good. Pay attention to what matters to her and compliment her on THAT, and only because you know how good it would feel if she did the same for you. Look out for the little things, like who the people are in her office or what she doesn't like to eat.
Basically, consider all the things you get indignant or sensitive about in yourself, especially when you think nobody pays attention to them, and remember that she's probably got those things too. Let her relax and not be "on" when she's around you, and you'll both find out how nice it is to just "be." Isn't that what you'd get in a long-term relationship? BING! You're almost there.
posted by Madamina at 7:10 AM on November 18, 2008
I like serious, committed relationships.
I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me...
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but these statements and their implications seem to be at odds with one another. Serious, committed relationships don't occur at the sort of frequency that allows one to gauge a 'success rate.' They are, in any given person's life, rare. Almost by definition, they are challenging to cultivate and slow to develop. There's no such thing as a good 'success rate' at serious, committed relationships. You may crave commitment, but your apparent expectation of quick and easy success pretty much guarantees you won't get it.
posted by jon1270 at 7:14 AM on November 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me...
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but these statements and their implications seem to be at odds with one another. Serious, committed relationships don't occur at the sort of frequency that allows one to gauge a 'success rate.' They are, in any given person's life, rare. Almost by definition, they are challenging to cultivate and slow to develop. There's no such thing as a good 'success rate' at serious, committed relationships. You may crave commitment, but your apparent expectation of quick and easy success pretty much guarantees you won't get it.
posted by jon1270 at 7:14 AM on November 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
This has happened too often to be a coincidence. At this point, the flaw is obviously with me.
You know, I used to believe that my relationship self-destruct pattern was too much of a pattern to be a coincidence, and I also thought that "the flaw is obviously with me."
I wasted several years depressed because I didn't know what this flaw was. Then I finally figured out that the only "flaw" was that I was settling for this pattern, and all I had to do was believe "I deserve better than this."
And that's when things changed.
Your only "flaw" is that you're letting things happen this way. You are convinced that you only appeal to a "niche", but something tells me that you haven't tested that theory. Step outside your box a bit and see if that's really true; I bet it's not.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on November 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
You know, I used to believe that my relationship self-destruct pattern was too much of a pattern to be a coincidence, and I also thought that "the flaw is obviously with me."
I wasted several years depressed because I didn't know what this flaw was. Then I finally figured out that the only "flaw" was that I was settling for this pattern, and all I had to do was believe "I deserve better than this."
And that's when things changed.
Your only "flaw" is that you're letting things happen this way. You are convinced that you only appeal to a "niche", but something tells me that you haven't tested that theory. Step outside your box a bit and see if that's really true; I bet it's not.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on November 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
You dont sound egotistical you sound slightly off
Seconding this. There's a really offputting stiffness to the way you write that I bet is a reflection of your personality. You don't sound natural or like you'd be much fun to be around at all. My guess is this has got a lot to do with your problems.
posted by cincinnatus c at 7:26 AM on November 18, 2008
Seconding this. There's a really offputting stiffness to the way you write that I bet is a reflection of your personality. You don't sound natural or like you'd be much fun to be around at all. My guess is this has got a lot to do with your problems.
posted by cincinnatus c at 7:26 AM on November 18, 2008
I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me.
Doesn't almost every person strike out for one reason or another with a large proportion of the people we meet? I think that you are just thinking that there is some large subset of people out there who find meeting mates super-easy and that you have something wrong with you because that never happens so you have to settle for hot brainy weirdos who, without a care in the world throw themselves at you.
Dating is hard. Suck it up and start asking women out until it clicks. Learn, in a non-bitter way, how to accept rejection, because truthfully, people flake all of the time. So you need to get to a point where each approach isn't you totally on the line and understand that the first month or more "doesn't count" and that you best remain skeptical about a romance for a good while before diving in with abandon.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:28 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Doesn't almost every person strike out for one reason or another with a large proportion of the people we meet? I think that you are just thinking that there is some large subset of people out there who find meeting mates super-easy and that you have something wrong with you because that never happens so you have to settle for hot brainy weirdos who, without a care in the world throw themselves at you.
Dating is hard. Suck it up and start asking women out until it clicks. Learn, in a non-bitter way, how to accept rejection, because truthfully, people flake all of the time. So you need to get to a point where each approach isn't you totally on the line and understand that the first month or more "doesn't count" and that you best remain skeptical about a romance for a good while before diving in with abandon.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:28 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm making a HUGE generalization here but I think that many people (especially squirrelly creative types) tend to NOT be interested in settling down until they reach their 30's. It's like paddling through the rapids and then hitting a wider, slower section of the river.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:28 AM on November 18, 2008
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:28 AM on November 18, 2008
Seriously? You regularly see women that are "insane"? Unless you live next to a mental hospital, I think you might want to double check with someone who can look at the situation objectively. You said yourself that you sounded egotistical in your post. In my opinion, you should really reflect on that before trying a serious relationship.
You've left out a very important detail -- where you're meeting these women. Generally speaking, no one picks people up at the bar looking for a long-term relationship. If you're looking for a long-term relationship, it's probably in your best interest to not be drunk when you first meet. Sorry to state the very obvious, but this is exactly what Internet match/date sites are good for - it lists exactly what the other person wants, and you can chat beforehand to see if you're on the same page.
You have a lot of female friends. Presumably, you're compatible with these women on some level, otherwise you wouldn't be friends with them (I hope). Have you ever tried to have a friend set you up with one of her friends?
Please don't refer to groups of women as "markets," for reasons that should be obvious to you when you think about it. Do you talk this way on dates? I mean, you kind of come off as a misogynist. Even if you do improve your appearance, ugly words will sour a relationship quickly.
posted by giraffe at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
You've left out a very important detail -- where you're meeting these women. Generally speaking, no one picks people up at the bar looking for a long-term relationship. If you're looking for a long-term relationship, it's probably in your best interest to not be drunk when you first meet. Sorry to state the very obvious, but this is exactly what Internet match/date sites are good for - it lists exactly what the other person wants, and you can chat beforehand to see if you're on the same page.
You have a lot of female friends. Presumably, you're compatible with these women on some level, otherwise you wouldn't be friends with them (I hope). Have you ever tried to have a friend set you up with one of her friends?
Please don't refer to groups of women as "markets," for reasons that should be obvious to you when you think about it. Do you talk this way on dates? I mean, you kind of come off as a misogynist. Even if you do improve your appearance, ugly words will sour a relationship quickly.
posted by giraffe at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, don't listen to Styxno. I think you bash yourself far more than is necessary and just taking that crap from someone else isn't really worth a single moment of your time.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The problems are happening in steps 1-3, which sets things up for failure in steps 4-6.
Taking them in order, here's my comments:
1) Woman throws herself at me.
You are talking like you are passive in this step, but you aren't. The women don't come from nowhere, and they rely on interaction with you to decide whether or not they should approach you. Maybe you are being indiscriminately flirty, and should instead focus that flirtatiousness on women who aren't nuts? Or you are being dismissive of women who are more stable? Figure out what you are actually doing that is attracting these women, and you will know what to adjust.
2) I find woman attractive (because, as noted, I like most of the niche market of women who prefer what I offer), get involved.
Just because she's cute, smart, and hot does not mean you have to take your pants off. You have a choice here, and one thing you might want to start doing is slowing down this part of the process -- add a much longer "getting to know you" time in there, so you can filter out the crazies and find common ground with the ones you connect with better. It sounds like you are going directly from "initial attraction" to "animal lust" without passing through any stage that would allow you to assess someone's personality or character.
3) Blazing hot and fast romance.
As in #2, slow this down a bit. Make sure you connect with more than pheromones before you unzip your pants. Talk about intellectual things, future plans, how each of you get along with your families -- you know, all the things that you are doing only after a week of animal sex, when you are then surprised with how incompatible you are. Turn that order around.
I don't know about "wooing" per se, but learn how to be a good boyfriend, or more precisely a good potential boyfriend. You know, the kind of guy who is fun to go out to dinner with, who has a lot going on in his life, and so on. The stable, commitment-centric girls you say you are interested in are looking for someone with more to offer than just a well-tested bedframe. They want to be intellectually stimulated, treated well, and all that.
You need to have space in your life for that person to fill -- and if that space is being taken up with a series of high-drama one-week girlfriends, there isn't any emotional space left for your dream girl. She'll move on down the road to the guy whose life is welcoming to her, and leave you to your drama.
posted by Forktine at 7:33 AM on November 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Taking them in order, here's my comments:
1) Woman throws herself at me.
You are talking like you are passive in this step, but you aren't. The women don't come from nowhere, and they rely on interaction with you to decide whether or not they should approach you. Maybe you are being indiscriminately flirty, and should instead focus that flirtatiousness on women who aren't nuts? Or you are being dismissive of women who are more stable? Figure out what you are actually doing that is attracting these women, and you will know what to adjust.
2) I find woman attractive (because, as noted, I like most of the niche market of women who prefer what I offer), get involved.
Just because she's cute, smart, and hot does not mean you have to take your pants off. You have a choice here, and one thing you might want to start doing is slowing down this part of the process -- add a much longer "getting to know you" time in there, so you can filter out the crazies and find common ground with the ones you connect with better. It sounds like you are going directly from "initial attraction" to "animal lust" without passing through any stage that would allow you to assess someone's personality or character.
3) Blazing hot and fast romance.
As in #2, slow this down a bit. Make sure you connect with more than pheromones before you unzip your pants. Talk about intellectual things, future plans, how each of you get along with your families -- you know, all the things that you are doing only after a week of animal sex, when you are then surprised with how incompatible you are. Turn that order around.
I don't know about "wooing" per se, but learn how to be a good boyfriend, or more precisely a good potential boyfriend. You know, the kind of guy who is fun to go out to dinner with, who has a lot going on in his life, and so on. The stable, commitment-centric girls you say you are interested in are looking for someone with more to offer than just a well-tested bedframe. They want to be intellectually stimulated, treated well, and all that.
You need to have space in your life for that person to fill -- and if that space is being taken up with a series of high-drama one-week girlfriends, there isn't any emotional space left for your dream girl. She'll move on down the road to the guy whose life is welcoming to her, and leave you to your drama.
posted by Forktine at 7:33 AM on November 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Warm fuzzy snippet of advice:
1) You need to do the choosing, not wait to see what comes to you;
Not so warm and fuzzy snippet of advice:
2) Egotistical/narcissistic men attract histrionic/borderline women.
There you have it.
posted by availablelight at 7:34 AM on November 18, 2008 [13 favorites]
1) You need to do the choosing, not wait to see what comes to you;
Not so warm and fuzzy snippet of advice:
2) Egotistical/narcissistic men attract histrionic/borderline women.
There you have it.
posted by availablelight at 7:34 AM on November 18, 2008 [13 favorites]
Qualifier: I have no idea if #2 applies to you at all, though there were some red flags in your write up. Take with a hearty grain of salt.
posted by availablelight at 7:35 AM on November 18, 2008
posted by availablelight at 7:35 AM on November 18, 2008
Your only "flaw" is that you're letting things happen this way.
Agreed. As long as you believe that only crazy wild women will want to date you, that's all that's going to happen. I know women like the ones you describe, and they are bad news for you- you are correct, they like the conquest, the attention, the "dozens of other guys hovering around". That's why they choose to be single, so they can continue to pursue those things. They are not "your market"- they don't like you, they just like that you're there and that you'll give them whatever they want. I understand why it would be scary to refuse to play by their rules (because then your "market" is gone), but you have to. The women you want to date are watching you act like a fool, and they're not going to find you attractive until you gain some self-respect.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 AM on November 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
Agreed. As long as you believe that only crazy wild women will want to date you, that's all that's going to happen. I know women like the ones you describe, and they are bad news for you- you are correct, they like the conquest, the attention, the "dozens of other guys hovering around". That's why they choose to be single, so they can continue to pursue those things. They are not "your market"- they don't like you, they just like that you're there and that you'll give them whatever they want. I understand why it would be scary to refuse to play by their rules (because then your "market" is gone), but you have to. The women you want to date are watching you act like a fool, and they're not going to find you attractive until you gain some self-respect.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 AM on November 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
The women you want to date are watching you act like a fool, and they're not going to find you attractive until you gain some self-respect.
TPS really nailed it with this, I think.
posted by Forktine at 7:39 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
TPS really nailed it with this, I think.
posted by Forktine at 7:39 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's because you're bad at wooing women, so the only women you get are the kinds who are a bit promiscuous and not looking for commitment, because they're the kind that go after what they want. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just sayin'. They have less to lose, so they're less inhibited, etc. I been there.)
Your dating style is based on letting women come to you, so you're not choosing what you want. Work on your women-wooing skills. Hang out in places your likely type is to be, and practice talking to them.
posted by iguanapolitico at 7:45 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Your dating style is based on letting women come to you, so you're not choosing what you want. Work on your women-wooing skills. Hang out in places your likely type is to be, and practice talking to them.
posted by iguanapolitico at 7:45 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
This may sound sexist (and hell it probably is), but women who actively pursue men tend not to be into commitment at your age. Doubly so for urban artsy types.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your self-esteem is pretty low right now, despite your egotistical posturing in your post. You're attracting the predators at the moment, buddy. Try to get a little more self-respect and I bet things will turn around.
Also, seconding the "don't listen to Stynxo." He sounds like he's angry and disappointed with himself and is taking it out anonymously over the internet because he's too much of a coward to do it to someone's face.
posted by Willie0248 at 7:47 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your self-esteem is pretty low right now, despite your egotistical posturing in your post. You're attracting the predators at the moment, buddy. Try to get a little more self-respect and I bet things will turn around.
Also, seconding the "don't listen to Stynxo." He sounds like he's angry and disappointed with himself and is taking it out anonymously over the internet because he's too much of a coward to do it to someone's face.
posted by Willie0248 at 7:47 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hi! I'm firmly in your target market. And I am kind of a nut, albeit not polyamorous. And I can tell you what might fix your problem (at least, it would fix it if I were one of your suitors): You need to slow down. When a girl throws herself at you, don't just accept it, even if you find her attractive. Make her wait. Make it develop slowly. Be her friend for a long time first. Get to know her in another context, slowly, and then let it develop.
I have very often met guys I thought I liked a lot at first, wooed, and then became tired of, despite my best intentions at the outset. Reason? A giant lack of context. Lack of a steady base from which to build a lasting relationship. I've only ever successfully had long-term relationships with sirs I have known well for over a year in another context (i.e., friends).
Also, the more quickly you get involved with someone, the more weight his every action has, so when you're really just getting to know someone--even if you like him a lot--you may judge attributes and behaviors more harshly than you'd judge them from someone you already knew. You can think of attributes and behaviors like grades in class--if you know a person for a longer time, they have more "grades." A 98% for a fun time at the movies, a 92% for a good conversation at a party, a 97% for a thoughtful email, an 89% for for being into the same stuff, a 93% for demonstrated intelligence through the years. Et cetera. And with that history, a 72% for "one weird date" or a 60% for "did not call when he said he would" or a 52% for "snores" doesn't matter that much, but when you start having an amorous relationship with someone you don't have those prior high grades with, that 72% or 52% matters a lot more.
I don't really go around giving people grades for their behaviors. Although maybe I SHOULD. Writing this Dating GPA theory out has made me wonder what would happen if I handed my boyfriend a report card. Even all my context might not save me then.
Good luck. And I think some people above me are being a little harsh. I don't think you sound that bad. It's easy to hate dating. It sucks.
posted by millipede at 7:52 AM on November 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
I have very often met guys I thought I liked a lot at first, wooed, and then became tired of, despite my best intentions at the outset. Reason? A giant lack of context. Lack of a steady base from which to build a lasting relationship. I've only ever successfully had long-term relationships with sirs I have known well for over a year in another context (i.e., friends).
Also, the more quickly you get involved with someone, the more weight his every action has, so when you're really just getting to know someone--even if you like him a lot--you may judge attributes and behaviors more harshly than you'd judge them from someone you already knew. You can think of attributes and behaviors like grades in class--if you know a person for a longer time, they have more "grades." A 98% for a fun time at the movies, a 92% for a good conversation at a party, a 97% for a thoughtful email, an 89% for for being into the same stuff, a 93% for demonstrated intelligence through the years. Et cetera. And with that history, a 72% for "one weird date" or a 60% for "did not call when he said he would" or a 52% for "snores" doesn't matter that much, but when you start having an amorous relationship with someone you don't have those prior high grades with, that 72% or 52% matters a lot more.
I don't really go around giving people grades for their behaviors. Although maybe I SHOULD. Writing this Dating GPA theory out has made me wonder what would happen if I handed my boyfriend a report card. Even all my context might not save me then.
Good luck. And I think some people above me are being a little harsh. I don't think you sound that bad. It's easy to hate dating. It sucks.
posted by millipede at 7:52 AM on November 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
It sounds like women are using you for whatever they like, because you are sending them the signal that you are amenable to it. If you don't want to seem available for these "disasters," exhibit more reserve and self-control.
Being a "niche market" can mean a whole lot of different things, and specifying which would improve the quality of answers here.
I also suspect that has plenty to do with the women who encounter you. Where is this niche? It doesn't sound like you're spending time in areas rife with normie girls. If that's what you seek, go to a starbucks or a bookstore or something. Pick 'em up! Otherwise, get better at making it work with the nutters, because smart guys are burdened with the ability to see past some nuttiness and do hard work in relationships.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:55 AM on November 18, 2008
Being a "niche market" can mean a whole lot of different things, and specifying which would improve the quality of answers here.
I also suspect that has plenty to do with the women who encounter you. Where is this niche? It doesn't sound like you're spending time in areas rife with normie girls. If that's what you seek, go to a starbucks or a bookstore or something. Pick 'em up! Otherwise, get better at making it work with the nutters, because smart guys are burdened with the ability to see past some nuttiness and do hard work in relationships.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:55 AM on November 18, 2008
Yes, you have choices. Exercise your first one by asking yourself, "What do I really want in a relationship?" Your writeup came off to me like you are almost a little proud that you've got all these women coming after you, even if the young ladies are unstable and though the "relationships" are short-lived. You may think you know what you want, but if that's not matching with the results you're getting, perhaps you need to re-evaluate what it is you really want. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to think about what intimacy truly is. It's not the feeling that comes after a day or two of hot monkey lovin', no matter what the rock songs and movies say. It's being honest with your partner, exposing yourself, your feelings, what you think about things, what scares you , all that stuff, over a period of time while being able to listen when someone else is exposing themselves emotionally to you. Yes, it takes time. Sure, it's scary, but if you want a full-fledged relationship? That's what's required. But it's OK.
Since you have female friends, you (hopefully) have some idea of what emotional intimacy might be. Or does it seem that those female friends might actually be more acquaintances after all, when you think about it? Think about it. Be as honest and clear with yourself as you can. Let me repeat that: Be as honest and clear with yourself as you can. If you can't, then you'll have to be content with what you're getting now.
After you figure out what you truly want, Forktine's comments above are spot on.
posted by droplet at 8:22 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Since you have female friends, you (hopefully) have some idea of what emotional intimacy might be. Or does it seem that those female friends might actually be more acquaintances after all, when you think about it? Think about it. Be as honest and clear with yourself as you can. Let me repeat that: Be as honest and clear with yourself as you can. If you can't, then you'll have to be content with what you're getting now.
After you figure out what you truly want, Forktine's comments above are spot on.
posted by droplet at 8:22 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, people into commitment generally aren't the "throw themselves at you" type... and if they are, then we refer to them as "desperate." Neither type sounds like what you're looking for.
You need to start looking at the folks who aren't throwing themselves at you, but whom still may be interested... look for more subtle signs of interest, accept that you'll misread a signal here and there and be ok with that. Something that builds a little slower has a better chance of lasting longer.
posted by Pufferish at 8:27 AM on November 18, 2008
You need to start looking at the folks who aren't throwing themselves at you, but whom still may be interested... look for more subtle signs of interest, accept that you'll misread a signal here and there and be ok with that. Something that builds a little slower has a better chance of lasting longer.
posted by Pufferish at 8:27 AM on November 18, 2008
Try being "polyamorous". Less work and stress-- and much more fun (for everyone involved).
And never take relationship advice from pop-culture addicts (people who relate everything to Judd Apatow films or American Pie).
The women you want to date are watching you act like a fool, and they're not going to find you attractive until you gain some self-respect.
This is about as wrong and derailing as anything I've seen here. There are people who are independent and there are people who need to cling to an SO to "complete themselves".
You like the former but want the latter. It's only because you want the latter that others (like the source of that quote) think you are being some sort of a "fool" or "patsy".
They equate wanting to be independent and not tied down to something evil.
posted by Zambrano at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2008
And never take relationship advice from pop-culture addicts (people who relate everything to Judd Apatow films or American Pie).
The women you want to date are watching you act like a fool, and they're not going to find you attractive until you gain some self-respect.
This is about as wrong and derailing as anything I've seen here. There are people who are independent and there are people who need to cling to an SO to "complete themselves".
You like the former but want the latter. It's only because you want the latter that others (like the source of that quote) think you are being some sort of a "fool" or "patsy".
They equate wanting to be independent and not tied down to something evil.
posted by Zambrano at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2008
Plus, you really don't go into detail about (5) Disaster. Why, exactly, is it disasterous for things not to work out with someone of the opposite sex? It pretty much is the norm for everyone. Even if you get married, every relationship ends. They all do. OK if you believe that married on earth means married for eternity in heaven, maybe not, but really, all relationships end.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
It sounds as if you're dating only those who throw themselves at you. This means that you are voting yourself out of the market. Most women do not throw themselves at men. Most women prefer men to do the chasing. It might sound out of date but it is, I believe, an accurate statement of female behaviour in western society.
You should be the person doing the choosing. The people you date should be your choice. There should be women that you spot, admire and actively pursue. Do this and you'll likely find a much higher calibre of woman.
posted by skylar at 8:44 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
You should be the person doing the choosing. The people you date should be your choice. There should be women that you spot, admire and actively pursue. Do this and you'll likely find a much higher calibre of woman.
posted by skylar at 8:44 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
A few years ago, I was both you and the kind of woman you've been seeing. That might sound like a contradiction to you, but I'm wondering if some of these women are interested only in short-term, casual, or open relationships because that's mostly what's been offered to them as well. After all, it's much easier in the short term to find a handful of people who are interested in you right this moment than to cultivate a slow, steady relationship with one person that may or may not pay off in the long run.
And you're setting yourself up for this as much as they are, I think, by letting the women you see (or who see you, passive voice) dictate the pace of the relationship. By this time you know that those fast-igniting relationships burn out just as quickly, and certainly won't keep you warm for long.
You know this, and you have the power to control it. Pull back a little if you feel yourself getting too smitten, or go home alone after a date even if you really want to invite her up for "coffee," or next time ask out the girl at the next table and not the girl poised to jump on your lap.
Sometimes the commitment-phobes come around, sometimes not. And sometimes the quieter "boring" people make much more interesting and sexy partners than the wild ones. But neither of these are likely to happen if you don't put some sort of damper on the whirlwind romances.
Finally, I do wonder about the "just insane" qualities of some of the women you've been seeing. There are plenty of people who have enough unchecked mental troubles that would preclude a decent relationship, but there are also many people who have mental troubles and are really-honest-to-god working on themselves and would also really-honest-to-god work on a serious relationship. Maybe a former girlfriend stole the contents of your medicine cabinet or threatened to burn your house down in a fit of rage, I don't know, but while I wouldn't advise you to give them a free pass, I also wouldn't advise you to dump a sweet person because she's got a prescription for Paxil.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:07 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
And you're setting yourself up for this as much as they are, I think, by letting the women you see (or who see you, passive voice) dictate the pace of the relationship. By this time you know that those fast-igniting relationships burn out just as quickly, and certainly won't keep you warm for long.
You know this, and you have the power to control it. Pull back a little if you feel yourself getting too smitten, or go home alone after a date even if you really want to invite her up for "coffee," or next time ask out the girl at the next table and not the girl poised to jump on your lap.
Sometimes the commitment-phobes come around, sometimes not. And sometimes the quieter "boring" people make much more interesting and sexy partners than the wild ones. But neither of these are likely to happen if you don't put some sort of damper on the whirlwind romances.
Finally, I do wonder about the "just insane" qualities of some of the women you've been seeing. There are plenty of people who have enough unchecked mental troubles that would preclude a decent relationship, but there are also many people who have mental troubles and are really-honest-to-god working on themselves and would also really-honest-to-god work on a serious relationship. Maybe a former girlfriend stole the contents of your medicine cabinet or threatened to burn your house down in a fit of rage, I don't know, but while I wouldn't advise you to give them a free pass, I also wouldn't advise you to dump a sweet person because she's got a prescription for Paxil.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:07 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I have a very poor success rate with women who don't actually throw themselves at me... does "wooing" ability, as a friend of mine recently suggested, actually make a difference in this sort of thing?
Yes, of course. If you don't have the ability to woo, how to you expect well-adjusted women to be interested? It's like you're asking, "I shouldn't date women who throw themselves as me, I know, because they're just in it for the conquest. But normal women don't throw themselves at me! What do I do?"
If you're not "wooing" them (it's a weird word), or are doing a very poor job at expressing your interest, that's why they're not interested. Maybe having all these women chasing you has made you lazy, so to speak. If your friends are hinting that you could improve your "wooing" skills then I'd take the hint and ask for more advice.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:13 AM on November 18, 2008
Yes, of course. If you don't have the ability to woo, how to you expect well-adjusted women to be interested? It's like you're asking, "I shouldn't date women who throw themselves as me, I know, because they're just in it for the conquest. But normal women don't throw themselves at me! What do I do?"
If you're not "wooing" them (it's a weird word), or are doing a very poor job at expressing your interest, that's why they're not interested. Maybe having all these women chasing you has made you lazy, so to speak. If your friends are hinting that you could improve your "wooing" skills then I'd take the hint and ask for more advice.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:13 AM on November 18, 2008
This to me sounds like a big metafilter troll of "look how awesome I am! I can't keep women off of me!" but i'll answer you seriously.
news flash: you don't have to sleep with a woman. you can be sweet and coy and even forthright and charming, and say, "I'd like to boink you, but I'd also like to get to know you better, first."
if you say that, here are some possible outcomes:
1) Woman says "screw you" and leaves. You now know she was only interested in your hott body.
2) Woman says 'okay' but gets inpatient and then leaves. See #1.
3) Woman says "awesome!" and you start dating. Then you know you have someone you might want to continue to have a relationship with.
it's like the women who complain that they've been with a guy for three years and she wants to get married and it's not happening, or they find out that he's not ready to settle down. i'm not saying you have to trumpet SERIOUS COMMITMENT from the getgo, but girls in your circle who might like to get to know you better aren't going to do so if they think you're a slut.
posted by micawber at 11:16 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
news flash: you don't have to sleep with a woman. you can be sweet and coy and even forthright and charming, and say, "I'd like to boink you, but I'd also like to get to know you better, first."
if you say that, here are some possible outcomes:
1) Woman says "screw you" and leaves. You now know she was only interested in your hott body.
2) Woman says 'okay' but gets inpatient and then leaves. See #1.
3) Woman says "awesome!" and you start dating. Then you know you have someone you might want to continue to have a relationship with.
it's like the women who complain that they've been with a guy for three years and she wants to get married and it's not happening, or they find out that he's not ready to settle down. i'm not saying you have to trumpet SERIOUS COMMITMENT from the getgo, but girls in your circle who might like to get to know you better aren't going to do so if they think you're a slut.
posted by micawber at 11:16 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Once one of these women gets into seduction mode, you're unlikely to interrupt and say, "Let's get to know each other." If a woman seems interested, by all means talk to her. But if she's overly persistent, back away, literally and/or figurative. A well-adjusted pursuer at least pauses if their quarry is hesitant or less enthusiastic, so you have to avoid anyone who throws herself at you. (The same is true for women with men who come on too strong.) One could just sleep with them and move on, but that's not your way.
Ok, so with those ladies out of the picture, you have no prospects. Now you need to meet more women. Talk with your female friends and come up with a few specific ideas. Try them, one or two at a time. Pick anything that will allow you to interact with people naturally. You'll probably want something casual, preferably a smallish group, where the woman get a chance to talk with and watch you without pressure for them or for you. The popular lone man in a cooking class is a cliche for good reason!
I also suggest that you smile, say hello, and maybe exchange pleasantries with any woman you come in contact with -- including women who are completely outside of your dating scope. Married, too old, too young... any woman. This will help with the "bad at wooing" thing. You'll feel comfortable being friendly because you're not looking for a date; you'll get better at it and that'll count when you do want to talk to a female you want to get to know.
Also, pay some attention to your looks. Your friend-girls can help you with this, and you can 'develop your look' (french accent) gradually. Find out if there are colors that look good or bad on you. Your clothes have to fit well, and not emphasize things you don't prefer about your body. Shirt tucked in or left out -- that alone can make a difference. Most people look better when they smile at least a bit -- maybe you do, too. I know you don't have money -- I'm not talking about buying a new wardrobe or getting a high-maintenance haircut. Just get rid of things that look especially not-good, and buy the "right" clothes from now on.
That's not a tall order, and it will help. I personally guarantee it :-)
posted by wryly at 1:26 PM on November 18, 2008
Ok, so with those ladies out of the picture, you have no prospects. Now you need to meet more women. Talk with your female friends and come up with a few specific ideas. Try them, one or two at a time. Pick anything that will allow you to interact with people naturally. You'll probably want something casual, preferably a smallish group, where the woman get a chance to talk with and watch you without pressure for them or for you. The popular lone man in a cooking class is a cliche for good reason!
I also suggest that you smile, say hello, and maybe exchange pleasantries with any woman you come in contact with -- including women who are completely outside of your dating scope. Married, too old, too young... any woman. This will help with the "bad at wooing" thing. You'll feel comfortable being friendly because you're not looking for a date; you'll get better at it and that'll count when you do want to talk to a female you want to get to know.
Also, pay some attention to your looks. Your friend-girls can help you with this, and you can 'develop your look' (french accent) gradually. Find out if there are colors that look good or bad on you. Your clothes have to fit well, and not emphasize things you don't prefer about your body. Shirt tucked in or left out -- that alone can make a difference. Most people look better when they smile at least a bit -- maybe you do, too. I know you don't have money -- I'm not talking about buying a new wardrobe or getting a high-maintenance haircut. Just get rid of things that look especially not-good, and buy the "right" clothes from now on.
That's not a tall order, and it will help. I personally guarantee it :-)
posted by wryly at 1:26 PM on November 18, 2008
The post asks why you attract women who aren't into commitment, but it doesn't have the kind of introspection that would help me answer this. You describe much about the externals (appearances and behaviors), but not much about what's going on in your head.
I once read that people tend to click with others who have the same level of "independent selfhood" and who (relatedly) are ready for the same level of emotional closeness. Thinking about this helped me, because then when relationships in general weren't working out, I would go looking for answers by trying to figure out "What is this thing, 'emotional closeness'?" and then thinking looking at how "emotionally available" I was. If you're like me, you may find it easier to solve your relationship problems by studying yourself rather than the external world (other people, a situation that just happened, etc).
So, when you tell me that you end up with crazy women who aren't ready for anything committed and real, it makes me wonder if despite what you say, part of you is scared about having an emotionally close relationship or otherwise sending out vibes that you just want something superficial (like a relationship where you just hang out trying to prove to each other that you're "cool"). I think Forktine's comment above also has some good things to consider.
posted by salvia at 5:56 PM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I once read that people tend to click with others who have the same level of "independent selfhood" and who (relatedly) are ready for the same level of emotional closeness. Thinking about this helped me, because then when relationships in general weren't working out, I would go looking for answers by trying to figure out "What is this thing, 'emotional closeness'?" and then thinking looking at how "emotionally available" I was. If you're like me, you may find it easier to solve your relationship problems by studying yourself rather than the external world (other people, a situation that just happened, etc).
So, when you tell me that you end up with crazy women who aren't ready for anything committed and real, it makes me wonder if despite what you say, part of you is scared about having an emotionally close relationship or otherwise sending out vibes that you just want something superficial (like a relationship where you just hang out trying to prove to each other that you're "cool"). I think Forktine's comment above also has some good things to consider.
posted by salvia at 5:56 PM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just a follow-up to my last post, because those are all such cheesy phrases (which is why I put them in quotes, but I could be clearer). They worked for me even though they're kinda pop-psychology phrases because they kicked off a broadly-defined thought process about whether there were things I was not seeing about myself and whether the relationships I was ending up in were that way in part because of what I was bringing to them.
posted by salvia at 10:21 PM on November 18, 2008
posted by salvia at 10:21 PM on November 18, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
You dont sound egotistical you sound slightly off, in the way that the girls you describe are.... (sorry if it sounds bad but it is kinda true, plus since is an anon post I didnt want to leave out any details). I just imagine you being in some sort of dinner date with a "normal" girl and you start sputtering these sort of sentences....
Anyway...you wanna meet nicer girls?
Go to different places (since I dont know where you go, I would say stop going there and stop meeting people in your social circle...unless they fit your requirements of course)
and
change your attitude and way of communicating....
P.S: (and I dont want to state the obvious but probably getting in shape will also help)
posted by The1andonly at 6:57 AM on November 18, 2008