How to respond to rent-a-cops
February 18, 2006 7:54 AM Subscribe
In this story a man is accosted by Best Buy employees, and blocked from leaving the parking lot, for refusing to show a receipt after purchasing an item. This raises some legal questions about physical detention by non-police.
Contrary to popular belief, the receipt checks at stores like Best Buy are completely optional. If you refuse to show the receipt and keep walking, then the employees have no legal right to detain you unless they have witnessed you shoplifting.
Here is my question: Let's assume the door goon doesn't follow those rules, or he thinks you actually shoplifted an item, and decides to block your exit from the store. How physical can the employees get in order to detain you?
If you know you've done nothing wrong, since the employee is illegally detaining you, are you allowed to respond physically?
Contrary to popular belief, the receipt checks at stores like Best Buy are completely optional. If you refuse to show the receipt and keep walking, then the employees have no legal right to detain you unless they have witnessed you shoplifting.
Here is my question: Let's assume the door goon doesn't follow those rules, or he thinks you actually shoplifted an item, and decides to block your exit from the store. How physical can the employees get in order to detain you?
If you know you've done nothing wrong, since the employee is illegally detaining you, are you allowed to respond physically?
There was a long discussion of this on MetaFilter, but I can't for the life of me find it anywhere. In it, members with a legal background talked about how a Best Buy doesn't have the right to search you -- that you have to consent to the search and can leave if you want, but at a place like Costco, the member agreement requires that you consent to searches.
posted by mathowie at 8:17 AM on February 18, 2006
posted by mathowie at 8:17 AM on February 18, 2006
Best answer: Here's the thread you were looking for, Matt.
posted by youarenothere at 8:28 AM on February 18, 2006
posted by youarenothere at 8:28 AM on February 18, 2006
Response by poster: but at a place like Costco, the member agreement requires that you consent to searches.
It would be very interesting to know if Costco members were signing away their protection from illegal detention, simply for not showing a receipt.
posted by jsonic at 8:30 AM on February 18, 2006
It would be very interesting to know if Costco members were signing away their protection from illegal detention, simply for not showing a receipt.
posted by jsonic at 8:30 AM on February 18, 2006
I'm not sure about the technicalities but pretty much no store or restaurant can keep you against your will. Many larger cities do allow stores and restaurants to essentially prevent you from leaving the scene of a crime. This goes beyond shoplifting to, say, you trying to burn the place down or something. Generally, in this case, the store must summon police immediately and accuse you before the office as soon as reasonably possible. So, basically, the store can detain you until the police arrive. If you're ever detained against your will and the store doesn't call the police then you should immediately call the police yourself. Even if the guards get physical, I would not recommend attacking the security guards and trying to claim self-defense unless you truly feel your life is in danger.
posted by nixerman at 8:38 AM on February 18, 2006
posted by nixerman at 8:38 AM on February 18, 2006
It's all good and I'm in favor of folks sticking up for their legal rights and everything and good for you for showing that pesky Best Buy employee the error of his/her ways, buy jeez, this is just nuts.
I went to Home Depot yesterday. I bought some furnace filters, paid at the self check out and left. On the way out a security person asked to see my receipt. She made a mark on it with a green highlighter. It took 2.6 seconds. My life went on, and so did hers.
posted by fixedgear at 8:52 AM on February 18, 2006
I went to Home Depot yesterday. I bought some furnace filters, paid at the self check out and left. On the way out a security person asked to see my receipt. She made a mark on it with a green highlighter. It took 2.6 seconds. My life went on, and so did hers.
posted by fixedgear at 8:52 AM on February 18, 2006
Response by poster: fixedgear: Or you could just say no and not waste any time.
This post is about what you can do if the employee decides to cause a problem by exceeding their authority.
posted by jsonic at 9:15 AM on February 18, 2006
This post is about what you can do if the employee decides to cause a problem by exceeding their authority.
posted by jsonic at 9:15 AM on February 18, 2006
Or you could just say no and not waste any time.
Waste any time?
Option 1: Show receipt, be delayed by 3 to 5 seconds.
Option 2: Decline to show receipt, possibly leading to no delay as you blow by the defeated security guard; or possibly leading to a 30-90 minute delay as you wait for the police to respond to a suspicion of shopliting and or the "getting physical" that ensues.
No, you're not interested in saving time, because the most expedient option is to play by their rules.
But seriously, if you've chosen this great injustice to be the cause you're going to fight, you're better off thinking of a better strategy than getting physical with the door staff. Best Buy and similar outlets will only change their policy if it becomes a major problem for them. So you might want to think of ways to make it a major problem for them.
Personally, if this mattered to me, I would just choose to shop elsewhere.
posted by blue mustard at 9:50 AM on February 18, 2006
Waste any time?
Option 1: Show receipt, be delayed by 3 to 5 seconds.
Option 2: Decline to show receipt, possibly leading to no delay as you blow by the defeated security guard; or possibly leading to a 30-90 minute delay as you wait for the police to respond to a suspicion of shopliting and or the "getting physical" that ensues.
No, you're not interested in saving time, because the most expedient option is to play by their rules.
But seriously, if you've chosen this great injustice to be the cause you're going to fight, you're better off thinking of a better strategy than getting physical with the door staff. Best Buy and similar outlets will only change their policy if it becomes a major problem for them. So you might want to think of ways to make it a major problem for them.
Personally, if this mattered to me, I would just choose to shop elsewhere.
posted by blue mustard at 9:50 AM on February 18, 2006
Response by poster: Best Buy and similar outlets will only change their policy if it becomes a major problem for them. So you might want to think of ways to make it a major problem for them.
Option 1: Show the receipt, including waiting in line at the security check-out. There is no benefit to you in doing this.
Option 2: Say no and just walk out with no delay. If you haven't stolen anything and the employee tries to detain you, then they have committed a crime. And you get a nice civil settlement. This is a win in either case for you, and it sounds like the major problem for retailers that you were asking for.
posted by jsonic at 10:08 AM on February 18, 2006
Option 1: Show the receipt, including waiting in line at the security check-out. There is no benefit to you in doing this.
Option 2: Say no and just walk out with no delay. If you haven't stolen anything and the employee tries to detain you, then they have committed a crime. And you get a nice civil settlement. This is a win in either case for you, and it sounds like the major problem for retailers that you were asking for.
posted by jsonic at 10:08 AM on February 18, 2006
Obviously, check your local legislation, IANAL, etc.
As far as the original question goes - I'd let the security guard get just as physical as he wanted. Why would I fight back? I'd just whip out the cameraphone and start snapping. If he took that away, fine. I'm pretty sure there's no lawful way for him to seize my property, so that might even qualify as robbery in some jurisdictions.
No reason to trade in your big civil settlement with the store just to pop the underpaid, low-level employee in the nose for roughing you up.
posted by Crosius at 10:30 AM on February 18, 2006
As far as the original question goes - I'd let the security guard get just as physical as he wanted. Why would I fight back? I'd just whip out the cameraphone and start snapping. If he took that away, fine. I'm pretty sure there's no lawful way for him to seize my property, so that might even qualify as robbery in some jurisdictions.
No reason to trade in your big civil settlement with the store just to pop the underpaid, low-level employee in the nose for roughing you up.
posted by Crosius at 10:30 AM on February 18, 2006
How about: Get asked if you're a guilty person, prove that you're not and waste only two seconds (working under the assumption that you're guilty and then proven innocent)
or walk out of the store with your principles.
posted by filmgeek at 10:36 AM on February 18, 2006
or walk out of the store with your principles.
posted by filmgeek at 10:36 AM on February 18, 2006
Should have mentioned, at many stores where I shop they have those "anti-theft" alarm sensors at the door. We've probably all purchased an item, had it de-activated, and triggered the alarm anyway.
One long shopping day, after the sixth such incident in as many stores, I stopped going back to the counter, I'd just look back, shake my head, shrug and keep walking. They didn't come after me with tasers or anything.
I asked a friend who works store security about it and they said they still can't make a shoplifting charge stick if the alarm goes off - they need to see you take the item, conceal or modify (ie. unpack) the item, fail to pay and leave the store to charge you successfully.
Confronting people in the parking lot is, according to my friend, just an awful experience. Screaming, swearing, and usually the merchandise in question gets dropped or thrown (ie. broken). For most security personnel, there's an unofficial dollar amount they have in their heads, below which they just won't bother.
posted by Crosius at 10:42 AM on February 18, 2006
One long shopping day, after the sixth such incident in as many stores, I stopped going back to the counter, I'd just look back, shake my head, shrug and keep walking. They didn't come after me with tasers or anything.
I asked a friend who works store security about it and they said they still can't make a shoplifting charge stick if the alarm goes off - they need to see you take the item, conceal or modify (ie. unpack) the item, fail to pay and leave the store to charge you successfully.
Confronting people in the parking lot is, according to my friend, just an awful experience. Screaming, swearing, and usually the merchandise in question gets dropped or thrown (ie. broken). For most security personnel, there's an unofficial dollar amount they have in their heads, below which they just won't bother.
posted by Crosius at 10:42 AM on February 18, 2006
(partial derail)
Well from my experience, it seems like if you go to work at Best Buy, you give up part of your soul. I had a terrible experience there and, though I felt I was in the right, was given no satisfaction all the way up the chain to corporate.
It's a place best avoided, IMO.
posted by Danf at 10:49 AM on February 18, 2006
Well from my experience, it seems like if you go to work at Best Buy, you give up part of your soul. I had a terrible experience there and, though I felt I was in the right, was given no satisfaction all the way up the chain to corporate.
It's a place best avoided, IMO.
posted by Danf at 10:49 AM on February 18, 2006
Just a comment - white privilege does exist. My husband and I have never been stopped at Walmart and asked for our receipt. At the Walmart here in Tucson it always seems to be Hispanic customers they stop to compare receipts with purchases.
posted by TorontoSandy at 11:11 AM on February 18, 2006
posted by TorontoSandy at 11:11 AM on February 18, 2006
Any reason this wouldn't work? Put the burden back on them. Ask if they saw you steal something. Walk out the door when they say no.
posted by jaysus chris at 11:19 AM on February 18, 2006
posted by jaysus chris at 11:19 AM on February 18, 2006
I solve this problem the very simple way. If I'm asked to show a receipt, I politely say "no", and walk out. I then stop shopping there, because I'd rather not give money to a company that actively disrespects me.
If they actually stopped me (CompUSA didn't stop me), I'd call the ACLU for advice.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:36 AM on February 18, 2006
If they actually stopped me (CompUSA didn't stop me), I'd call the ACLU for advice.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:36 AM on February 18, 2006
Just a comment - white privilege does exist. My husband and I have never been stopped at Walmart and asked for our receipt. At the Walmart here in Tucson it always seems to be Hispanic customers they stop to compare receipts with purchases.
Not that I enjoy defending Wal-Mart, but are you sure that's not because you've purchased only items that fit in bags? Every time I leave the Wal-Mart in my (majority black) city with all my items in bags, I am not stopped. When I have one not in a bag, I am stopped. This appears to be the same for the people of all races walking freely out with their bags and the people of all races showing receipts without bags.
posted by Airhen at 12:05 PM on February 18, 2006
Not that I enjoy defending Wal-Mart, but are you sure that's not because you've purchased only items that fit in bags? Every time I leave the Wal-Mart in my (majority black) city with all my items in bags, I am not stopped. When I have one not in a bag, I am stopped. This appears to be the same for the people of all races walking freely out with their bags and the people of all races showing receipts without bags.
posted by Airhen at 12:05 PM on February 18, 2006
Maybe I am Part of the Problem here, but seriously, what's wrong with the store asking you to see the receipt on the way out? I don't see that as such an invasion of privacy.
posted by xmutex at 12:07 PM on February 18, 2006
posted by xmutex at 12:07 PM on February 18, 2006
Response by poster: what's wrong with the store asking you to see the receipt on the way out? I don't see that as such an invasion of privacy.
The issue is not with them asking. The issue is with how they react (sometimes) when people say no. From a legal standpoint, they can only search you and your bags if you agree to let them.
posted by jsonic at 12:57 PM on February 18, 2006
The issue is not with them asking. The issue is with how they react (sometimes) when people say no. From a legal standpoint, they can only search you and your bags if you agree to let them.
posted by jsonic at 12:57 PM on February 18, 2006
Stores reducing loss is good for everyone except shoplifters--it increases their margins, and allows them to pass some of that on to you in the form of lower prices, better service, or whatever. Clearly, many stores have decided that receipt-checking reduces loss, and I'm inclined to agree.
I also think that it's the public's responsibility to know their rights.
Generally, I play the game and show my receipt, out of respect to the employee who checks it. If I'm feeling particularly assholey or there is a line, I will simply ignore them and walk out. I have never been stopped. If, by some freak chance, I am physically restrained one day, I will not resist, but will do nothing except demand the police and press charges when it becomes clear that I did not steal anything.
(Re-reading the original question: What exactly is your goal here? To legally beat someone up?)
posted by trevyn at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2006
I also think that it's the public's responsibility to know their rights.
Generally, I play the game and show my receipt, out of respect to the employee who checks it. If I'm feeling particularly assholey or there is a line, I will simply ignore them and walk out. I have never been stopped. If, by some freak chance, I am physically restrained one day, I will not resist, but will do nothing except demand the police and press charges when it becomes clear that I did not steal anything.
(Re-reading the original question: What exactly is your goal here? To legally beat someone up?)
posted by trevyn at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2006
Maybe I am Part of the Problem here, but seriously, what's wrong with the store asking you to see the receipt on the way out? I don't see that as such an invasion of privacy.
posted by xmutex
That in and of itself is part of the problem. We don't live in an Orwellian state. The laws regarding what can be done to prevent shoplifting are quite clear. The loss prevention staff that becomes aggressive and goes beyond their rights as stated in the UCC need to be brought back in line. The problem with giving people this type of authority is that it is sometimes misused. They only stop people that "look suspicious", which is sometimes synonymous with 'black' or 'hispanic'.
One of the ways that we as citizens can resist this overstepping of authority is a peaceful protest. By not allowing them to search my bag, or check my receipt, I am peacefully (and hopefully) letting them know that I do not accept their practices, and do not appreciate their attempt to infringe upon my individual rights.
I don't shop at Best Buy that much anymore specifically because of this problem. One of the last times I was there, a loss prevention team member followed me outside and tried to confront me because I would not show him my receipt. I was able to remain calm, and I explained to him that he had no legal right to ask me for my receipt, and that I was not going to voluntarily submit to a search of my person.
To his credit, he did back off and walk back into the store.
And from TFA, the author posted an email response that he received from a Best Buy store employee that outlined the reasons for having your receipt verified. One of them was to check to make sure that you have not been overcharged, which is complete and total bullshit. The loss prevention people at the front of the store are there to deter the casual shoplifter, not to verify that you weren't charged $11.99 for that $9.99 DVD that you picked up. They don't look at the receipt closely enough. All they do is check to make sure that the amount of items that you paid for is roughly akin to the number of items in your bags/cart.
posted by Jim T at 1:43 PM on February 18, 2006
posted by xmutex
That in and of itself is part of the problem. We don't live in an Orwellian state. The laws regarding what can be done to prevent shoplifting are quite clear. The loss prevention staff that becomes aggressive and goes beyond their rights as stated in the UCC need to be brought back in line. The problem with giving people this type of authority is that it is sometimes misused. They only stop people that "look suspicious", which is sometimes synonymous with 'black' or 'hispanic'.
One of the ways that we as citizens can resist this overstepping of authority is a peaceful protest. By not allowing them to search my bag, or check my receipt, I am peacefully (and hopefully) letting them know that I do not accept their practices, and do not appreciate their attempt to infringe upon my individual rights.
I don't shop at Best Buy that much anymore specifically because of this problem. One of the last times I was there, a loss prevention team member followed me outside and tried to confront me because I would not show him my receipt. I was able to remain calm, and I explained to him that he had no legal right to ask me for my receipt, and that I was not going to voluntarily submit to a search of my person.
To his credit, he did back off and walk back into the store.
And from TFA, the author posted an email response that he received from a Best Buy store employee that outlined the reasons for having your receipt verified. One of them was to check to make sure that you have not been overcharged, which is complete and total bullshit. The loss prevention people at the front of the store are there to deter the casual shoplifter, not to verify that you weren't charged $11.99 for that $9.99 DVD that you picked up. They don't look at the receipt closely enough. All they do is check to make sure that the amount of items that you paid for is roughly akin to the number of items in your bags/cart.
posted by Jim T at 1:43 PM on February 18, 2006
"How physical can the employees get in order to detain you?"
In Canada unless they are actually performing a citizen's arrest they can't detain you in any way.
fixedgear writes "I went to Home Depot yesterday. I bought some furnace filters, paid at the self check out and left. On the way out a security person asked to see my receipt. She made a mark on it with a green highlighter. It took 2.6 seconds. My life went on, and so did hers."
Except when there is a big line because the door "guard" thinks that someone ten places up is being tricky. Or worse yet thinks you are the miscreant. The former seems to happen to me at least once a month. Or I should say used to happen to me once a month because I no longer wait around for receipt checking. Except at Costco where, I can only assume, the higher wages paid to the staff result in employees who are actually capable.
Crosius writes "One long shopping day, after the sixth such incident in as many stores, I stopped going back to the counter, I'd just look back, shake my head, shrug and keep walking. They didn't come after me with tasers or anything. "
I also skip the whole "return to the counter when the alarams go off" thing after spending ten minutes trying to get out of a store one chirstmas last century. I've never had someone follow me into the parking lot. The first couple dozen times I just continued walking my heart was racing but now it is strangely invigorating to be free from the Pavlovian like response to those stupid devices.
TorontoSandy writes "At the Walmart here in Tucson it always seems to be Hispanic customers they stop to compare receipts with purchases."
I wonder if that isn't because they know a greater percentage of the Hispanic are illegal aliens and therefor can't enforce there rights for fear of being deported?
posted by Mitheral at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2006
In Canada unless they are actually performing a citizen's arrest they can't detain you in any way.
fixedgear writes "I went to Home Depot yesterday. I bought some furnace filters, paid at the self check out and left. On the way out a security person asked to see my receipt. She made a mark on it with a green highlighter. It took 2.6 seconds. My life went on, and so did hers."
Except when there is a big line because the door "guard" thinks that someone ten places up is being tricky. Or worse yet thinks you are the miscreant. The former seems to happen to me at least once a month. Or I should say used to happen to me once a month because I no longer wait around for receipt checking. Except at Costco where, I can only assume, the higher wages paid to the staff result in employees who are actually capable.
Crosius writes "One long shopping day, after the sixth such incident in as many stores, I stopped going back to the counter, I'd just look back, shake my head, shrug and keep walking. They didn't come after me with tasers or anything. "
I also skip the whole "return to the counter when the alarams go off" thing after spending ten minutes trying to get out of a store one chirstmas last century. I've never had someone follow me into the parking lot. The first couple dozen times I just continued walking my heart was racing but now it is strangely invigorating to be free from the Pavlovian like response to those stupid devices.
TorontoSandy writes "At the Walmart here in Tucson it always seems to be Hispanic customers they stop to compare receipts with purchases."
I wonder if that isn't because they know a greater percentage of the Hispanic are illegal aliens and therefor can't enforce there rights for fear of being deported?
posted by Mitheral at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2006
Jim T and any others that feel checking receipts is a shoplifter deterrant: What kind of idiot shoplifts an item and puts it in their bag on the way out of the store? They put it in a pocket or jacket. I am a former Door Nazi for Fry's Electronics, the company that started this. And along with catching many many many cashier mistakes for missed items, I did indeed save customers money from time to time, including some guy who bought $2000 worth of items without blinking, and the cashier accidently rang up a $150 printer 3 times instead of 1.
They actually look for the number of items in your bag matching the number on the reciept, and for big ticket items, to make sure it's on the reciept.
It's called Shrinkage, and every store experinces it. It's loss of any kind. And the majority of it comes from cashiers missing items. Yes, it's a good thing that they try to prevent it because in the long run any money saved from this gets passed on to the customer. And yes, they are also there as a shoplifter deterrant. They don't expect people to shoplift and be caught at the door, in fact, in my year or so experince of checking off hundreds of thousands of reciepts, not one person ever shoplifted by having something in their bag.
But, back on topic. No, they can't really detain you, and certainly not without calling the police. And they shouldn't. If they do, call them on it, and get a lawyer. We were instructed to let anyone who didn't want to check their reciept pass and tell them to have a nice day. And if there was a line of people, we just marked the reciept and didn't check anything. A line going out is bad service. Giving bad service will cost more then that $5 stapler that the cashier neglected to ring up.
In my experince, Best Buy and the other places that do these things really have no clue what they are doing and why they are doing it. They just started it because Fry's was doing it, and it worked for them. Their company simply doesn't give them instructions on how to handle this. I've never been stopped, but if I was approached after I left the store, or asked to stay for a while against my will because I didn't show a reciept, I'd calmly explain to them what my rights are, what they can and can't do, what will happen if they do anything including touching me (*cough* lawsuit and criminal charges), and walk away as they stared at me with their jaw hanging on the ground because they know they are totally in the wrong and were just trying to play some power game.
posted by Phynix at 2:34 PM on February 18, 2006
They actually look for the number of items in your bag matching the number on the reciept, and for big ticket items, to make sure it's on the reciept.
It's called Shrinkage, and every store experinces it. It's loss of any kind. And the majority of it comes from cashiers missing items. Yes, it's a good thing that they try to prevent it because in the long run any money saved from this gets passed on to the customer. And yes, they are also there as a shoplifter deterrant. They don't expect people to shoplift and be caught at the door, in fact, in my year or so experince of checking off hundreds of thousands of reciepts, not one person ever shoplifted by having something in their bag.
But, back on topic. No, they can't really detain you, and certainly not without calling the police. And they shouldn't. If they do, call them on it, and get a lawyer. We were instructed to let anyone who didn't want to check their reciept pass and tell them to have a nice day. And if there was a line of people, we just marked the reciept and didn't check anything. A line going out is bad service. Giving bad service will cost more then that $5 stapler that the cashier neglected to ring up.
In my experince, Best Buy and the other places that do these things really have no clue what they are doing and why they are doing it. They just started it because Fry's was doing it, and it worked for them. Their company simply doesn't give them instructions on how to handle this. I've never been stopped, but if I was approached after I left the store, or asked to stay for a while against my will because I didn't show a reciept, I'd calmly explain to them what my rights are, what they can and can't do, what will happen if they do anything including touching me (*cough* lawsuit and criminal charges), and walk away as they stared at me with their jaw hanging on the ground because they know they are totally in the wrong and were just trying to play some power game.
posted by Phynix at 2:34 PM on February 18, 2006
Phynix, I'm a bit curious how often you actually caught missed items? This practice just doesn't make much sense to me. Paying somebody $6-$8/hr to stand by a door and piss off customers as they leave the store just seems very silly.
posted by nixerman at 3:37 PM on February 18, 2006
posted by nixerman at 3:37 PM on February 18, 2006
nixerman writes "stand by a door and piss off customers as they leave the store just seems very silly."
I'd bet it's more about keeping staff honest IE: ensuring cashiers aren't giving out a friends and family "discount" or 3 for 1 deals.
posted by Mitheral at 4:03 PM on February 18, 2006
I'd bet it's more about keeping staff honest IE: ensuring cashiers aren't giving out a friends and family "discount" or 3 for 1 deals.
posted by Mitheral at 4:03 PM on February 18, 2006
I tend to not have my items bagged (I don't need the extra trash) and quite often at Best Buy and at the occasional other store, get asked to let them check my receipt.
Now, personally, I consider this to be a case of a company treating me like a criminal, and if there was another place I could go locally to get several of the items I want at near the same prices, I probably would, but since there isn't I keep going back to Best Buy and the like.
When they do ask for my receipt, I look at them and explain that they have three options:
1) Detain me for shoplifting.
2) Ban me from their store.
3) Go away and stop treating me like a criminal.
Then I keep walking while the employee tries to process this ultimatum.
posted by Ikazuchi at 5:11 PM on February 18, 2006
Now, personally, I consider this to be a case of a company treating me like a criminal, and if there was another place I could go locally to get several of the items I want at near the same prices, I probably would, but since there isn't I keep going back to Best Buy and the like.
When they do ask for my receipt, I look at them and explain that they have three options:
1) Detain me for shoplifting.
2) Ban me from their store.
3) Go away and stop treating me like a criminal.
Then I keep walking while the employee tries to process this ultimatum.
posted by Ikazuchi at 5:11 PM on February 18, 2006
That in and of itself is part of the problem. We don't live in an Orwellian state.
I'm seeing your point, sort of, but I really don't think some sixteen year old kid asking to see my receipt at Best Buy really makes for an Orwellian state.
Buuuut..
posted by xmutex at 6:20 PM on February 18, 2006
I'm seeing your point, sort of, but I really don't think some sixteen year old kid asking to see my receipt at Best Buy really makes for an Orwellian state.
Buuuut..
posted by xmutex at 6:20 PM on February 18, 2006
This study of false-arrest lawsuits shows companies the security procedures and policies that are most likely to land them in court.
Of the 235 lawsuits filed against retailers, approximately one-third resulted in damage awards to the shoppers. Nine percent received nominal awards less than $5,000; 10 percent received between $5,000 and $50,000; 6 percent received awards between $50,001 and $300,000; and 2 percent of the plaintiffs received awards greater than $300,000. The amount of the award in another 2 percent of the cases was not disclosed.
posted by crazyray at 9:37 PM on February 18, 2006
It seems to me that this is yet another great reason, amongst many great reasons, to avoid shopping at big box marketers that put these ludicrous policies in place and expect their customers to go along just because they're so grateful for the experience in shopping in their sterile, wretchedly staffed, frequently overpriced and not-as-convenient as claimed stores.
This is a perfect example of the benefit of shopping locally, if not shopping online. You may have to pay a quarter for parking, but there is very little that cannot be purchased from a locally owned business where the staff is likely to appreciate that you came to them rather than Best Buy or Staples or Home Depot and will act that way.
posted by Dreama at 10:48 PM on February 18, 2006
This is a perfect example of the benefit of shopping locally, if not shopping online. You may have to pay a quarter for parking, but there is very little that cannot be purchased from a locally owned business where the staff is likely to appreciate that you came to them rather than Best Buy or Staples or Home Depot and will act that way.
posted by Dreama at 10:48 PM on February 18, 2006
nixerman: It was a good 6 years ago or so. So I couldn't really tell you how often. Atleast once a day, and sometimes alot more. At the time, we got paid a half dollar below minimum wage, and made a set commission for each 'catch' we made, depending on the type of error and the amount. The idea was that if you made so little that you didn't make up that half dollar during your week, then you weren't cut out for the job, the company would pay the extra to make it legal, and you'd probably be asked to transfer. Either way, never had a problem with that.
Some days we'd do 5 to 10 each, some days we'd do a few. If the store was busier, more mistakes were made, as cashiers tried to rush things to make the line disappear / move faster. I'm sure there were days were we didn't find any mistakes, and most of the time the mistakes weren't that much. A $5 item. It's not really hard to mis-count while ringing up 20 or so small $1 items, especially if there are two or three different types, and the cashier neglects to notice that there are 2 or 3 more expensive versions in that pile.
I never had a customer get super upset with me and demand to see management. But then, I've been told I have above average customer service skills. Most people were okay with going back and either paying for it or getting the mistake fixed (for incorrect charges). For the people who didn't have the time, and it was just an item that wasn't charged, they just left it with us and said they'd purchase it the next time they came in. The key thing here, is that as soon as the customer is aware of the mistake, they can't leave with the item, as that is indeed shoplifting.
Also never had a customer insist that it was the Cashier's mistake and the item was now theirs and attempt to walk out of the store with an item they didn't pay for. Really, everything that is found is cashier mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, and people genearlly understand that. Assuring them that the mistake would get fixed in a prompt manner, they wouldn't have to wait in line again, and you'd see to it personally, really works wonders. We basically walked with them through the whole transaction with the same cashier, who would apologize to them, fix the error, and then we'd walk them back to the door and tell them sorry again and to have a nice day.
I'm not sure what the Best Buy goons do as well, but we were also in charge of generally saftey and security, tagging customers electronic items, and had to double check every transaction in the returns area (very easy to make a mistake there). Basically, Saftey, Security, Inventory Control. The next step up from them also dealt with forged checks, fake ids, credit card fraud, and were basically close by during any customer dispute and/or health crisis. While I was there, our deparment got an award from the local Police for capturing a check forger who was wanted in 5 or 6 states for numerous charges, as well as our regular dealings with them on shoplifters.
It was actually a rather fun, and sometimes very boring job. You knew everyone in the store (but weren't technically allowed to hang out), were basically treated like a Supervisor even though you were just a peon, and got quite a bit of respect, even though no one wanted to actually do the job. This is what ended up getting me. 10-14 hour shifts 5-6 days a week because they couldn't find replacements.
Oh, and right before I left the company, they started cashiers on a commission system so they made extra money for the amount of cash and transactions they took care of. I imagine with tons of cashiers trying to work as fast as possible to get more money, the mistakes made probably doubled or tripled.
posted by Phynix at 2:27 AM on February 19, 2006
Some days we'd do 5 to 10 each, some days we'd do a few. If the store was busier, more mistakes were made, as cashiers tried to rush things to make the line disappear / move faster. I'm sure there were days were we didn't find any mistakes, and most of the time the mistakes weren't that much. A $5 item. It's not really hard to mis-count while ringing up 20 or so small $1 items, especially if there are two or three different types, and the cashier neglects to notice that there are 2 or 3 more expensive versions in that pile.
I never had a customer get super upset with me and demand to see management. But then, I've been told I have above average customer service skills. Most people were okay with going back and either paying for it or getting the mistake fixed (for incorrect charges). For the people who didn't have the time, and it was just an item that wasn't charged, they just left it with us and said they'd purchase it the next time they came in. The key thing here, is that as soon as the customer is aware of the mistake, they can't leave with the item, as that is indeed shoplifting.
Also never had a customer insist that it was the Cashier's mistake and the item was now theirs and attempt to walk out of the store with an item they didn't pay for. Really, everything that is found is cashier mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, and people genearlly understand that. Assuring them that the mistake would get fixed in a prompt manner, they wouldn't have to wait in line again, and you'd see to it personally, really works wonders. We basically walked with them through the whole transaction with the same cashier, who would apologize to them, fix the error, and then we'd walk them back to the door and tell them sorry again and to have a nice day.
I'm not sure what the Best Buy goons do as well, but we were also in charge of generally saftey and security, tagging customers electronic items, and had to double check every transaction in the returns area (very easy to make a mistake there). Basically, Saftey, Security, Inventory Control. The next step up from them also dealt with forged checks, fake ids, credit card fraud, and were basically close by during any customer dispute and/or health crisis. While I was there, our deparment got an award from the local Police for capturing a check forger who was wanted in 5 or 6 states for numerous charges, as well as our regular dealings with them on shoplifters.
It was actually a rather fun, and sometimes very boring job. You knew everyone in the store (but weren't technically allowed to hang out), were basically treated like a Supervisor even though you were just a peon, and got quite a bit of respect, even though no one wanted to actually do the job. This is what ended up getting me. 10-14 hour shifts 5-6 days a week because they couldn't find replacements.
Oh, and right before I left the company, they started cashiers on a commission system so they made extra money for the amount of cash and transactions they took care of. I imagine with tons of cashiers trying to work as fast as possible to get more money, the mistakes made probably doubled or tripled.
posted by Phynix at 2:27 AM on February 19, 2006
If asked, I would usually allow anyone working the door at a Best Buy or similar chain to check my bag as a good-faith gesture. I understand that there are benefits and costs of shopping at a major chain -- I get cheaper items, a reasonable selection in a big box building, and can do a lot of shopping under one roof. In return, I have to acknowledge that the cashiers are too busy to also watch the door, and the guy at the door can't watch all of the cashiers to make sure I went through. Logistically, it's a reasonable choice.
However, I've never been stopped for a small item or several small items (software, books, music, even computer hardware). If I had been, or had to wait in a line to be checked, I might be more annoyed. I don't believe that employees of big box stores should be allowed to detain me unless they have good evidence I was shoplifting, but I think that they have the right to deny me as a customer if I don't buy into their system.
posted by mikeh at 12:26 PM on February 20, 2006
However, I've never been stopped for a small item or several small items (software, books, music, even computer hardware). If I had been, or had to wait in a line to be checked, I might be more annoyed. I don't believe that employees of big box stores should be allowed to detain me unless they have good evidence I was shoplifting, but I think that they have the right to deny me as a customer if I don't buy into their system.
posted by mikeh at 12:26 PM on February 20, 2006
As for the original question, I believe that a possible detainer would only have the right to be as physical as local law allows. If there is a law that says someone may be held if shoplifting is suspected, then the law likely spells out what level of physicality is allowed. The same applies to a citizen's arrest. If that line is exceeded, it becomes a case of self defense for one of the parties. It's up to law enforcement and the court system to decide who is at fault.
All this said, I'd like to mention that the people watching the door at a local Best Buy also help customers with carts, help load heavy items into cars if possible, and do double duty as greeters when not busy. They also tag items going into the store so that the returns desk knows that an item was brought in. Because, as I said before, the specialized service counters can't see the door or track customers from there either. I mean, I don't complain when convenience stores have mirrors so that employees can watch the store.
posted by mikeh at 12:33 PM on February 20, 2006
All this said, I'd like to mention that the people watching the door at a local Best Buy also help customers with carts, help load heavy items into cars if possible, and do double duty as greeters when not busy. They also tag items going into the store so that the returns desk knows that an item was brought in. Because, as I said before, the specialized service counters can't see the door or track customers from there either. I mean, I don't complain when convenience stores have mirrors so that employees can watch the store.
posted by mikeh at 12:33 PM on February 20, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
If they don't meet those requirements, however, then they are committing false imprisonment, and you can recover damages in court. You are also allowed to recover for damages from a reasonable attempt to escape. I'm think reasonable only includes physical force that isn't likely to cause death or serious bodily harm.
The specifics could vary from state to state, don't take my word for it, etc., etc. Realistically, your best first action if you're being detained is probably to call a lawyer.
posted by stopgap at 8:10 AM on February 18, 2006