Can a store search my bag?
July 19, 2005 11:16 AM Subscribe
Does a store really have the right to search my bag? I'm a guy and I carry a messenger bag. It always offends me when a store employee or security guard stops me and demands to search my bag on my way out of the store. Can I say no?
Specifically, I was just at Costco (a place I actually PAY to shop at!) and for the first time in two years, a manager at the entrance of the store told me they'd be searching my bag on the way out. I immediately turned around and pointed at a woman leaving the store carrying a purse not much smaller than my messenger bag who had just walked out without being searched. I asked, "Why are you going to search me and not that woman? Do you search women's purses?" He said, "No, we don't usually search women's purses, but we always search backpacks. You're wearing a backpack." I told him I had been shopping there for 2 years and no one had ever stopped me to search my bag. He told me, "Well, this store is in a high crime area and we usually search bags. If you want to shop here wearing your bag, you have to let us search it on your way out. Or you can go leave it in your car."
I took a breath and counted to 10 and reluctantly went and left my bag in the car. But what would have happened if I just shopped and then refused to let them search me at the exit? Would they call the police? Could I be arrested? Or would I just be banned from the store?
I hate being treated like a criminal at a store I'm patronizing. Especially one that I have to pay to walk into. Do stores actually have a right to search me? I didn't even think the police had that right.
Specifically, I was just at Costco (a place I actually PAY to shop at!) and for the first time in two years, a manager at the entrance of the store told me they'd be searching my bag on the way out. I immediately turned around and pointed at a woman leaving the store carrying a purse not much smaller than my messenger bag who had just walked out without being searched. I asked, "Why are you going to search me and not that woman? Do you search women's purses?" He said, "No, we don't usually search women's purses, but we always search backpacks. You're wearing a backpack." I told him I had been shopping there for 2 years and no one had ever stopped me to search my bag. He told me, "Well, this store is in a high crime area and we usually search bags. If you want to shop here wearing your bag, you have to let us search it on your way out. Or you can go leave it in your car."
I took a breath and counted to 10 and reluctantly went and left my bag in the car. But what would have happened if I just shopped and then refused to let them search me at the exit? Would they call the police? Could I be arrested? Or would I just be banned from the store?
I hate being treated like a criminal at a store I'm patronizing. Especially one that I have to pay to walk into. Do stores actually have a right to search me? I didn't even think the police had that right.
Do stores actually have a right to search me?
No, they absolutely do not. Bag searches are only legal if they're voluntary. So just say "Nope" every time an employee asks to search your bags.
posted by cmonkey at 11:23 AM on July 19, 2005
No, they absolutely do not. Bag searches are only legal if they're voluntary. So just say "Nope" every time an employee asks to search your bags.
posted by cmonkey at 11:23 AM on July 19, 2005
No, but they can make you leave.
I'd write a letter or make some angry phone calls.
posted by klangklangston at 11:25 AM on July 19, 2005
I'd write a letter or make some angry phone calls.
posted by klangklangston at 11:25 AM on July 19, 2005
Oh, and that also applies to "receipt checks"/looking in the bag the store gave you to hold your newly purchased merchandise in as you leave.
posted by cmonkey at 11:26 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by cmonkey at 11:26 AM on July 19, 2005
I think the story is different with Costco, since you have to be a paid member in order to enter. Part of the membership agreement may be that they have the right to search your bag on the way out.
This is different to a regular store, which has no such limits on entry.
I can't remember where I read this, but I do recall it as fact (instead of simply Male Answer Syndrome).
posted by 5MeoCMP at 11:29 AM on July 19, 2005
This is different to a regular store, which has no such limits on entry.
I can't remember where I read this, but I do recall it as fact (instead of simply Male Answer Syndrome).
posted by 5MeoCMP at 11:29 AM on July 19, 2005
In the US, nobody has a right to search you without probable cause, a warrant or your permission (barring exceptions in the Patriot Act.)
Since they told you before you started shopping that you'd be searched, if you'd gone in, shopped, then refused to let them search your bag, I imagine they could have called the police on suspicion of shoplifting. (Entering the store after the warning basically means you are aware of the new rule, and you are going to comply with it.)
Since there are no witnesses and no video of you putting things in the bag, they don't have probable cause to open it on their own. The police would then *ask* to look inside your bag, so the whole thing starts over again. Do you let them look in your bag?
If you refuse, and the cops are sufficiently irritated at being dragged to Costco over a guy who won't open a bag, they may arrest you for hindering an investigation, or on suspicion of shoplifting. As soon as you get downtown, if the bag isn't held as evidence, the people at the pokey are going to go through it and inventory it to cover *their* asses.
At that point, the fact that you have no store merchandise in your bag is your defense, so ultimately, people who aren't you are gonna get a look inside your bag no matter what.
...
Or the cops could be annoyed at the manager and tell him to get a stepladder and get over himself, they're not wasting the time and paperwork to process a guy who doesn't want his bag searched, and you'd be able to leave. Chances of having your membership cancelled after that? Pretty good, I'd imagine.
Or the manager could just get pissy that you wouldn't let him do the search after he warned you it would happen, and he could kick you out of the store for good. Depends on whether he feels like calling the police and starting an incident that will get back to corporate (if he's lucky) or hit the local news (if he's unlucky.) or just wants to get you out of his hair.
In short, the answer to your question is:
What would happen to you if you refused to let them search your bag would depend entirely on the moods and whims of other people. No, they don't have a right to, but they do have a right to refuse you service for any reason.
My advice? Start leaving the bag in the car.
posted by headspace at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2005
Since they told you before you started shopping that you'd be searched, if you'd gone in, shopped, then refused to let them search your bag, I imagine they could have called the police on suspicion of shoplifting. (Entering the store after the warning basically means you are aware of the new rule, and you are going to comply with it.)
Since there are no witnesses and no video of you putting things in the bag, they don't have probable cause to open it on their own. The police would then *ask* to look inside your bag, so the whole thing starts over again. Do you let them look in your bag?
If you refuse, and the cops are sufficiently irritated at being dragged to Costco over a guy who won't open a bag, they may arrest you for hindering an investigation, or on suspicion of shoplifting. As soon as you get downtown, if the bag isn't held as evidence, the people at the pokey are going to go through it and inventory it to cover *their* asses.
At that point, the fact that you have no store merchandise in your bag is your defense, so ultimately, people who aren't you are gonna get a look inside your bag no matter what.
...
Or the cops could be annoyed at the manager and tell him to get a stepladder and get over himself, they're not wasting the time and paperwork to process a guy who doesn't want his bag searched, and you'd be able to leave. Chances of having your membership cancelled after that? Pretty good, I'd imagine.
Or the manager could just get pissy that you wouldn't let him do the search after he warned you it would happen, and he could kick you out of the store for good. Depends on whether he feels like calling the police and starting an incident that will get back to corporate (if he's lucky) or hit the local news (if he's unlucky.) or just wants to get you out of his hair.
In short, the answer to your question is:
What would happen to you if you refused to let them search your bag would depend entirely on the moods and whims of other people. No, they don't have a right to, but they do have a right to refuse you service for any reason.
My advice? Start leaving the bag in the car.
posted by headspace at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2005
They are a private company, they aren't bound by the 4th amendment or anything like that. If they make "random bag searches" a condition of you using their store, then you have the options of going there and getting searched, or taking your business elsewhere.
posted by knave at 11:38 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by knave at 11:38 AM on July 19, 2005
"Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc. upon entering or leaving the warehouse." (page 11) When you bought your membership card, you undoubtedly had to agree to these terms of service.
posted by Galvatron at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Galvatron at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2005
I wonder what would happen if you started carrying a purse instead of a backpack. Would they search you because you were male?
posted by rajbot at 11:42 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by rajbot at 11:42 AM on July 19, 2005
many places have lockers where you can leave your bag.
i know how you feel, BUT the thing that swings my opinion in this is that if i argue about it the only person i'm giving crap is someone who already has a piss poor job that they probably hate. if you are me (as am i lucky enough to be), or most people (i suspect) who wear "fashionable" bags and chat about things on the internets, you're probably well educated and from a class where (at least once out of education) that kind of job is something you'll never have to even dream of. you have many more options than someone in a minimum wage job. you can change positions more easily and you probably have more savings/credit to get you through the times when you really want out.
that doesn't mean don't fight. but do it through letters (or emails) to the company. do it through complaints here. do it through petitions. persuade people rights like this matter.
of course, if you've got the social skills to do that with a guard at door, fine. but i just get angry and frustrated. which doesn't help either of us.
posted by andrew cooke at 11:45 AM on July 19, 2005
i know how you feel, BUT the thing that swings my opinion in this is that if i argue about it the only person i'm giving crap is someone who already has a piss poor job that they probably hate. if you are me (as am i lucky enough to be), or most people (i suspect) who wear "fashionable" bags and chat about things on the internets, you're probably well educated and from a class where (at least once out of education) that kind of job is something you'll never have to even dream of. you have many more options than someone in a minimum wage job. you can change positions more easily and you probably have more savings/credit to get you through the times when you really want out.
that doesn't mean don't fight. but do it through letters (or emails) to the company. do it through complaints here. do it through petitions. persuade people rights like this matter.
of course, if you've got the social skills to do that with a guard at door, fine. but i just get angry and frustrated. which doesn't help either of us.
posted by andrew cooke at 11:45 AM on July 19, 2005
Yup, I was gonna say, you're pretty much handcuffed because of the membership terms of service.
I used to work in retail management, and saying the wrong thing to the wrong person could entitle them to sue us simply for suggesting they stole something. As simple as the alarm going off when they exit the store and saying, "Let us check your bag" was enough to face a lawsuit.
posted by Mach3avelli at 11:58 AM on July 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
I used to work in retail management, and saying the wrong thing to the wrong person could entitle them to sue us simply for suggesting they stole something. As simple as the alarm going off when they exit the store and saying, "Let us check your bag" was enough to face a lawsuit.
posted by Mach3avelli at 11:58 AM on July 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
I am not a lawyer, and I don't shop at Costco. I do shop at stores that ask to check my receipt upon leaving (hello, Fry's!), and I never acquiesce. If anyone ever insists, I will make them physically restrain me; when I am later found not to have shoplifted anything, I will sue for false arrest. Maybe kidnapping, I don't know... anyhow, I'd expect a payday out of it.
posted by Daddio at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by Daddio at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2005
Thank you for asking this! There's nothing that annoys me than the person at Kroger/Wally-world who stand there and search my crap. Something about it just pisses me off and I've been wondering if I had the right to say, "Um, no thanks!"
posted by jmd82 at 12:16 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by jmd82 at 12:16 PM on July 19, 2005
So this is true in all states? What happens if they start hassling you? Are they able to detain you in case they want to call the cops?
posted by bshort at 12:21 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by bshort at 12:21 PM on July 19, 2005
Costco's a private company, so when you're on their property, they get to make the rules. They can search, profile, monitor, whatever as long as it's within the law.
I'm with andrew cooke, if you don't like the policy, send a nastygram to management and take your business elsewhere. Don't take it out on the flunky at the door.
Personally I don't have a problem with the bag search policy. I shop there voluntarily (not at Costco, but similar), and don't really care if the company treats everyone as a suspect. They're a business, so it's their right, whether it's a stupid policy or not. If they make the experience unpleasant I'll just go somewhere else. Now if it were the government doing this, that'd be waaay different.
posted by ldenneau at 12:27 PM on July 19, 2005
I'm with andrew cooke, if you don't like the policy, send a nastygram to management and take your business elsewhere. Don't take it out on the flunky at the door.
Personally I don't have a problem with the bag search policy. I shop there voluntarily (not at Costco, but similar), and don't really care if the company treats everyone as a suspect. They're a business, so it's their right, whether it's a stupid policy or not. If they make the experience unpleasant I'll just go somewhere else. Now if it were the government doing this, that'd be waaay different.
posted by ldenneau at 12:27 PM on July 19, 2005
IANAL But I did work as a security guard/loss prevention guy here in Canada for stint while going to University.
It was made quite clear to me that we had no right to search a person without their consent. The only time we could do something about a shoplifter was basically to make a 'Citizen's Arrest' and detain them till the Cops got there, but ONLY if we had seen them take something with our own eyes. suspicion was not cause to do so.
In Canada, nobody (no matter how cool their uniform) has the right to search you (without your consent) except the Police. The only time a store employee can detain you is if they CLEARLY put you under arrest, and having done so are then obligated to call the Police immediately. If they do this without having seen you take something with their own eyes they are fucked.... because then you have the right to seek remedies through the courts system.
Then again, we do not have the Patriot Act here, so we still have a fighting chance when it comes to rights..... :)
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 12:28 PM on July 19, 2005
It was made quite clear to me that we had no right to search a person without their consent. The only time we could do something about a shoplifter was basically to make a 'Citizen's Arrest' and detain them till the Cops got there, but ONLY if we had seen them take something with our own eyes. suspicion was not cause to do so.
In Canada, nobody (no matter how cool their uniform) has the right to search you (without your consent) except the Police. The only time a store employee can detain you is if they CLEARLY put you under arrest, and having done so are then obligated to call the Police immediately. If they do this without having seen you take something with their own eyes they are fucked.... because then you have the right to seek remedies through the courts system.
Then again, we do not have the Patriot Act here, so we still have a fighting chance when it comes to rights..... :)
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 12:28 PM on July 19, 2005
I don't quite understand why you're so upset about opening your bag. Are you not aware of the huge shoplifting problem? Or do you think that you're so clearly honest and lawabiding they shouldn't dream of suspecting you? As long as you're not being singled out, which you're not (since it's a universal policy about that type of bag), I don't see you have much of a beef -- you can always, as headspace says, leave it in the car.
I used to work in bookstores, and my first day on the job at a now-defunct Fifth Ave. bookstore they were showing me how to work the door and stopped a cleancut college-age guy and asked him to open his bag (just to show me the procedure). He blanched and reluctantly did so -- it turned out he'd stolen a book. They took him downstairs to await the police. During that first week I went back to the virtually deserted art section and saw a guy casually dumping armfuls of expensive art books into a bag; when I dashed off to get a manager, he sauntered out to the front and left, doubtless to sell them in the Village. They're not doing this just to get your goat.
posted by languagehat at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2005
I used to work in bookstores, and my first day on the job at a now-defunct Fifth Ave. bookstore they were showing me how to work the door and stopped a cleancut college-age guy and asked him to open his bag (just to show me the procedure). He blanched and reluctantly did so -- it turned out he'd stolen a book. They took him downstairs to await the police. During that first week I went back to the virtually deserted art section and saw a guy casually dumping armfuls of expensive art books into a bag; when I dashed off to get a manager, he sauntered out to the front and left, doubtless to sell them in the Village. They're not doing this just to get your goat.
posted by languagehat at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2005
languagehat: You're talking about one of the few cities where you can't just leave the bag in the car, because it will keep going and end up at South Ferry without you.
I'd be able to follow that advice just about anywhere but in New York, though, if I had a car to leave things in.
posted by oaf at 1:33 PM on July 19, 2005
I'd be able to follow that advice just about anywhere but in New York, though, if I had a car to leave things in.
posted by oaf at 1:33 PM on July 19, 2005
languagehat - I think the poster verbalized pretty clearly the core of his issue - that women walk in and out with handbags that may be just as big and don't get asked to open them. So he was being told he was going to get asked to open it... why? Gender, height, race, haircut, shoes... who knows?
I personally doubt it's "that kind" of bag in reality - my girl often carries a purse that looks like a mutant offspring of a purse and a backpack and has never been stopped. I've noticed her getting the eyeball over it on many occassions but not once has anyone stopped her. You can be certain those same eyeballers wouldn't have hesitated if she'd been a man. I guess you can decide for yourself if that kind of gender distinction annoys you but I find it arbitrary and irksome.
posted by phearlez at 2:00 PM on July 19, 2005
I personally doubt it's "that kind" of bag in reality - my girl often carries a purse that looks like a mutant offspring of a purse and a backpack and has never been stopped. I've noticed her getting the eyeball over it on many occassions but not once has anyone stopped her. You can be certain those same eyeballers wouldn't have hesitated if she'd been a man. I guess you can decide for yourself if that kind of gender distinction annoys you but I find it arbitrary and irksome.
posted by phearlez at 2:00 PM on July 19, 2005
I'd type up something and carry it with me informing anyone who wanted to inspect me that "I reserve the right of going about MY business in a lawful manner without harrassment from anyone." and go on my way. I might include my lawyer's phone number on it too.
Any store that is unwilling to allow me to shop unmolested would not have my repeat business. Dignity is more important to me than the few pennies I might save shopping at the Gulag.
posted by NorthCoastCafe at 2:04 PM on July 19, 2005
Any store that is unwilling to allow me to shop unmolested would not have my repeat business. Dignity is more important to me than the few pennies I might save shopping at the Gulag.
posted by NorthCoastCafe at 2:04 PM on July 19, 2005
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know where you live, but I understand that there's a California Law that prohibits any store from detaining you as you leave. That includes stopping you to see your receipt. That doesn't stop them from asking, if they ask and you volunteer for a search they can do what they want. I usually say "No, thank you" and I've never had a problem, do get a funny look but that's been all. Of course they also have the right to refuse my business, but by that time I've already given them my money. The guys at the door at Fries know me well enough that they don't even bother to ask me anymore.
posted by ejhdigdug at 2:05 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by ejhdigdug at 2:05 PM on July 19, 2005
Costco's a private company, so when you're on their property, they get to make the rules. They can search, profile, monitor, whatever as long as it's within the law.
So by this logic, if someone visits my home I have the right to search his bag? That is clearly not the case.
posted by Doug at 2:57 PM on July 19, 2005
So by this logic, if someone visits my home I have the right to search his bag? That is clearly not the case.
posted by Doug at 2:57 PM on July 19, 2005
So by this logic, if someone visits my home I have the right to search his bag? That is clearly not the case.
Of course it is. It's rude, but you have the right.
posted by kindall at 3:12 PM on July 19, 2005
Of course it is. It's rude, but you have the right.
posted by kindall at 3:12 PM on July 19, 2005
Anyone know if you have the right to refuse bag searches in France, too? Because here in Britain I've never been asked - in France it's much more common.
posted by creeky at 4:13 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by creeky at 4:13 PM on July 19, 2005
kindall, that's stupid, and wrong. You can say to a guest in your home, "Let me search your bag, or get off my property," but you cannot say, "Don't leave my property until I search your bag."
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2005
Response by poster: Wow, thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses.
Just to clarify, I'm in the Boston area of Massachusetts, USA. The Costco I am talking about is in Everett, MA.
Rabbitsnake, thanks for that link to the crimedoctor.com site. It was exactly what I was looking for.
Galvatron, thanks for pointing me to the Costco policy.
I guess the bottom line is that I can refuse to be searched just about anywhere except Costco... where I (unknowingly) signed an agreement to be searched when I joined the club. Oh well. I'll just leave my bag behind from now on. However, when I go to another store and they ask to search me on the way out, I will politely refuse and know I'm within my rights. That's good to know.
Languagehat: I understand the store's motivation for wanting to search bags as a theft deterrent, but it still offends me because; 1) I'm not going to steal anything. 2.) I had to PAY to shop there. 3) They are not searching women who could easily steal things in their purses. 4) I don't like being treated like a criminal at an establishment I chose to patronize.
I would never try to hassle a minimum wage bag checker. That's not my intention. But I feel more comfortable politely and maturely refusing to be searched in the future.
Bag searching is something that has bugged me for years. I generally boycott places that do this type of thing, but I didn't know Costco did it until today (after 2 years of happy shopping.)
I really appreciate all the information. I learned many things today.
posted by evoo at 7:33 PM on July 19, 2005
Just to clarify, I'm in the Boston area of Massachusetts, USA. The Costco I am talking about is in Everett, MA.
Rabbitsnake, thanks for that link to the crimedoctor.com site. It was exactly what I was looking for.
Galvatron, thanks for pointing me to the Costco policy.
I guess the bottom line is that I can refuse to be searched just about anywhere except Costco... where I (unknowingly) signed an agreement to be searched when I joined the club. Oh well. I'll just leave my bag behind from now on. However, when I go to another store and they ask to search me on the way out, I will politely refuse and know I'm within my rights. That's good to know.
Languagehat: I understand the store's motivation for wanting to search bags as a theft deterrent, but it still offends me because; 1) I'm not going to steal anything. 2.) I had to PAY to shop there. 3) They are not searching women who could easily steal things in their purses. 4) I don't like being treated like a criminal at an establishment I chose to patronize.
I would never try to hassle a minimum wage bag checker. That's not my intention. But I feel more comfortable politely and maturely refusing to be searched in the future.
Bag searching is something that has bugged me for years. I generally boycott places that do this type of thing, but I didn't know Costco did it until today (after 2 years of happy shopping.)
I really appreciate all the information. I learned many things today.
posted by evoo at 7:33 PM on July 19, 2005
Everyone has the right to refuse to submit evidence that will or has the potential to incriminate themselves. From urine testing to bag searching.
This, of course, is a hotly debated constitutional point.
posted by johnj at 9:17 PM on July 19, 2005
This, of course, is a hotly debated constitutional point.
posted by johnj at 9:17 PM on July 19, 2005
Even though you seem to have agreed that Costco can search your bags at will, I think the sub-question regarding the different treatment of your murse and ladies' purses is a troubling company policy. The agreement you signed doesn't appear to make an exception for women carying purses; the stores simply don't do it because it would be impractical to stop every woman on her way out the door. To make you stop and to search your similarly sized bag is pretty blatant sexual discrimination. I would point this out in a nicely worded letter to the manager and someone in the corporate office. Costco is a progressive enough place that you might get some response.
posted by jaysus chris at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by jaysus chris at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2005
There is more about this. I was walking out of a CompUSA and refused.
And kept walking.
Now, the security guard would have to leave his post to chase me down.
IANAL, but my best friend and father both are. I consulted them both. So this is second hand.
No. Even at Costco.
If you choose not to, they can only cancel your membership....
Walk. Seriously.
They have a choice - stopping you or letting you go.
If they stop you physically, it's assault and possibly false imprisonment.
Both of which are violations of your civil rights. Just because you signed a contract, you did not waive your rights of freedom.
Talk to a local lawyer (a friend is best if you have one that works along these lines.)
Get arrested. Bargain/apologize. DO NOT sign away any rights.
Sue their asses off in civil court. Your lawyer will be happy to help, for a contingency fee. It will come up that you signed a contract permitting searching, not assault nor false imprisonment.
Stick it to the man!
posted by filmgeek at 10:58 PM on July 19, 2005
And kept walking.
Now, the security guard would have to leave his post to chase me down.
IANAL, but my best friend and father both are. I consulted them both. So this is second hand.
No. Even at Costco.
If you choose not to, they can only cancel your membership....
Walk. Seriously.
They have a choice - stopping you or letting you go.
If they stop you physically, it's assault and possibly false imprisonment.
Both of which are violations of your civil rights. Just because you signed a contract, you did not waive your rights of freedom.
Talk to a local lawyer (a friend is best if you have one that works along these lines.)
Get arrested. Bargain/apologize. DO NOT sign away any rights.
Sue their asses off in civil court. Your lawyer will be happy to help, for a contingency fee. It will come up that you signed a contract permitting searching, not assault nor false imprisonment.
Stick it to the man!
posted by filmgeek at 10:58 PM on July 19, 2005
1) I'm not going to steal anything. 2.) I had to PAY to shop there. 3) They are not searching women who could easily steal things in their purses. 4) I don't like being treated like a criminal at an establishment I chose to patronize.
I work in retail as one of my jobs, I've worked in retail for 7 years now. We don't search bags on people leaving the store, but if we did I think it would be important to either search every one or not allow bags in the store.
It's like when I ask people for their IDs when they write a check, for every single person that writes a check. I don't do it because I think they're going to try to rip the store off, I do it so when someone tries to write a bad check at the store, they can't use the excuse that no one else had to show ID.
From the perspective of a retail employee, everyone appears to be scamming the store. If you return something, we're suspicious of you. If you carry a backpack, we might keep a closer eye. With your particular example, there are roughly two types of people that will raise the same objections you raise. People stealing things, and privacy fans. How can the average retail employee know which category to group you in?
posted by drezdn at 11:10 PM on July 19, 2005
I work in retail as one of my jobs, I've worked in retail for 7 years now. We don't search bags on people leaving the store, but if we did I think it would be important to either search every one or not allow bags in the store.
It's like when I ask people for their IDs when they write a check, for every single person that writes a check. I don't do it because I think they're going to try to rip the store off, I do it so when someone tries to write a bad check at the store, they can't use the excuse that no one else had to show ID.
From the perspective of a retail employee, everyone appears to be scamming the store. If you return something, we're suspicious of you. If you carry a backpack, we might keep a closer eye. With your particular example, there are roughly two types of people that will raise the same objections you raise. People stealing things, and privacy fans. How can the average retail employee know which category to group you in?
posted by drezdn at 11:10 PM on July 19, 2005
"Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc. upon entering or leaving the warehouse."
No, they really don't. They may wish to, but your right not to be searched illegally is guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution. They can ask you to leave their premises and not come back, though; and they can certainly give you a choice between the two.
No policeman would arrest you for refusing a search without probable cause, just as no policeman would search you against your will without either a warrant or probable cause. Policemen have to know about this part of the law and they know that they can't do this.
Check out the analogous: "Costco reserves the right to murder you with axes while you are leaving the warehouse." Do you suppose that this releases them from liability for murdering you with an axe?
If they put a hand on you while you're trying to leave the premises, and you didn't steal anything, call a cop. Then call a lawyer, as you're due for a juicy civil settlement.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:16 PM on July 20, 2005
No, they really don't. They may wish to, but your right not to be searched illegally is guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution. They can ask you to leave their premises and not come back, though; and they can certainly give you a choice between the two.
No policeman would arrest you for refusing a search without probable cause, just as no policeman would search you against your will without either a warrant or probable cause. Policemen have to know about this part of the law and they know that they can't do this.
Check out the analogous: "Costco reserves the right to murder you with axes while you are leaving the warehouse." Do you suppose that this releases them from liability for murdering you with an axe?
If they put a hand on you while you're trying to leave the premises, and you didn't steal anything, call a cop. Then call a lawyer, as you're due for a juicy civil settlement.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:16 PM on July 20, 2005
Hmmm... my knowledge of American law may be a bit spotty, but isn't the Fourth Amendment only applicable to searches and seizures by the government?
For instance, you have a first amendment right to free speech, but you can't argue that gives you the right to go to your friend's house and say what you want. There is no right to free speech on private property.
Check out the analogous: "Costco reserves the right to murder you with axes while you are leaving the warehouse." Do you suppose that this releases them from liability for murdering you with an axe?
For a valid contract, one of the conditions is that it must be for a lawful purpose. Murder is not legal.
Aren't there a few lawyers on MeFi?
posted by madman at 2:03 AM on July 21, 2005
For instance, you have a first amendment right to free speech, but you can't argue that gives you the right to go to your friend's house and say what you want. There is no right to free speech on private property.
Check out the analogous: "Costco reserves the right to murder you with axes while you are leaving the warehouse." Do you suppose that this releases them from liability for murdering you with an axe?
For a valid contract, one of the conditions is that it must be for a lawful purpose. Murder is not legal.
Aren't there a few lawyers on MeFi?
posted by madman at 2:03 AM on July 21, 2005
I just blow right by them. At most stores around here, the receipt checking process causes quite a line, and I want to go home and enjoy the stuff that I just bought. When they've said "I'd like to look in your bag." I say "No, you can't." and keep walking. That's only happened once in as long as I can remember, and they just shrugged and moved on to the next person.
I usually think it's annoying. Kind of does make you feel like you're being treated as a criminal.
posted by drstein at 9:50 AM on February 18, 2006
I usually think it's annoying. Kind of does make you feel like you're being treated as a criminal.
posted by drstein at 9:50 AM on February 18, 2006
languagehat writes "I don't quite understand why you're so upset about opening your bag. Are you not aware of the huge shoplifting problem? Or do you think that you're so clearly honest and lawabiding they shouldn't dream of suspecting you? As long as you're not being singled out, which you're not (since it's a universal policy about that type of bag), I don't see you have much of a beef -- you can always, as headspace says, leave it in the car."
Maybe he's got a hamster in his bag he's afraid will get out. Maybe he's got a big ol' stack of gay animal porn in his bag from his previous stop at the porn shop. Maybe he's got $10,000 in sequential 100 dollar bills that he'd prefer not flashing around to the searcher and everyone who happens to be in line behind him. Maybe his bag is empty and he's embarassed not to have any bling. Point is it really isn't the store workers business. He isn't responsible for stopping the shoplifting problem. As for leaving it in the car: most (all?) store parking lots have signs posted[1] that imply their parking lots are hot beds of criminal activity. Leaving anything in a car is probably not the most prudent course of action.
[1] In order to absolve the store of any liability of course.
posted by Mitheral at 2:55 PM on February 18, 2006
Maybe he's got a hamster in his bag he's afraid will get out. Maybe he's got a big ol' stack of gay animal porn in his bag from his previous stop at the porn shop. Maybe he's got $10,000 in sequential 100 dollar bills that he'd prefer not flashing around to the searcher and everyone who happens to be in line behind him. Maybe his bag is empty and he's embarassed not to have any bling. Point is it really isn't the store workers business. He isn't responsible for stopping the shoplifting problem. As for leaving it in the car: most (all?) store parking lots have signs posted[1] that imply their parking lots are hot beds of criminal activity. Leaving anything in a car is probably not the most prudent course of action.
[1] In order to absolve the store of any liability of course.
posted by Mitheral at 2:55 PM on February 18, 2006
Here in Florida if you feel your life is in danger, thanks to our new gun law, you can shoot first and ask questions later.
I've heard the excuse that they have to put a mark on your reciept to make sure that if you return an item later, you actually bought it at the store. I don't know is there a huge business in fake receipts?
posted by IndigoSkye at 6:53 PM on February 18, 2006
I've heard the excuse that they have to put a mark on your reciept to make sure that if you return an item later, you actually bought it at the store. I don't know is there a huge business in fake receipts?
posted by IndigoSkye at 6:53 PM on February 18, 2006
Btw, the obvious answer to this is to have Best Buy handle all transations at the checkout registers then place their LP guy in the register area. When a clerk is nearly finished with the transaction, they hand the reciept to the LP guy and he checks it with the goods in the bags. When the LP guy is satisfied he hands the receipt to the consumer and moves to the next register. That's easy. No one's rights are being violated and there's not long line to wait in when you're rushing to leave the store.
posted by IndigoSkye at 7:53 PM on February 18, 2006
posted by IndigoSkye at 7:53 PM on February 18, 2006
I currently work retail in a department store where our items range in price from about $5 to well over $1000.
Sales associates are trained not to accuse a customer of being a shoplifter. This means that if they enter the fitting room with six items and leave with five, the fitting room attendant must say simply "Oh, ma'am, you're short one item, would you like to go back in the dressing room and see if you can find it?" so that the presumed shoplifter has an opportunity to return the item "without embarrassment." Removed tags, switched tags, all of that - gets reported to management or LP specialists immediately, but again - we don't say anything, and chances are, neither will they.
Sensors, however, are a different story. If you beep as you leave, your merchandise gets checked. This is in part so that we don't get so many customers coming back needing us to remove sensors. Could you refuse? Yeah, I suppose.
I've heard the excuse that they have to put a mark on your reciept to make sure that if you return an item later, you actually bought it at the store. I don't know is there a huge business in fake receipts?
I honestly wouldn't be surprised. The things people do to steal (or even just save a few bucks) are limitless.
My feeling is that usually, we know who you are and what you're up to, we just legally can't do a lot about it. I think security and LP specialists and sensors are mere deterrents. If you ignore their deterrent factor and proceed with shoplifting anyhow, they probably can't do much for fear of lawsuits.
Come to think of it, I've noticed less and less of those SHOPLIFTERS WILL BE PROSECUTED signs in stores in recent years.
posted by anjamu at 11:07 PM on July 1, 2006
Sales associates are trained not to accuse a customer of being a shoplifter. This means that if they enter the fitting room with six items and leave with five, the fitting room attendant must say simply "Oh, ma'am, you're short one item, would you like to go back in the dressing room and see if you can find it?" so that the presumed shoplifter has an opportunity to return the item "without embarrassment." Removed tags, switched tags, all of that - gets reported to management or LP specialists immediately, but again - we don't say anything, and chances are, neither will they.
Sensors, however, are a different story. If you beep as you leave, your merchandise gets checked. This is in part so that we don't get so many customers coming back needing us to remove sensors. Could you refuse? Yeah, I suppose.
I've heard the excuse that they have to put a mark on your reciept to make sure that if you return an item later, you actually bought it at the store. I don't know is there a huge business in fake receipts?
I honestly wouldn't be surprised. The things people do to steal (or even just save a few bucks) are limitless.
My feeling is that usually, we know who you are and what you're up to, we just legally can't do a lot about it. I think security and LP specialists and sensors are mere deterrents. If you ignore their deterrent factor and proceed with shoplifting anyhow, they probably can't do much for fear of lawsuits.
Come to think of it, I've noticed less and less of those SHOPLIFTERS WILL BE PROSECUTED signs in stores in recent years.
posted by anjamu at 11:07 PM on July 1, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
According to this site, the answer is no, they do not have the right to search your bag involuntarily.
posted by rabbitsnake at 11:23 AM on July 19, 2005