Am I naive to think I'm truly the "only one" for Demi Moore?
February 17, 2006 11:06 AM Subscribe
I recently ended an affair I was having with a beautiful, intelligent, charming, older, married woman (I'm Ashton's age, she's Demi's). After 3 weeks I just couldn't deal with the guilt anymore. I knew the affair was wrong, but I did it anyway. As a Catholic, I'm working on the whole reconciliation thing.
Though I realize I'm the scum of the earth for the whole adultery thing, I'm also attractive, charming and intelligent. Aside from the physical stuff I'm about to describe, she and I had really great conversations and connections on all sorts of other levels.
She started by flirting with me. A couple of months later we had a brief kissing encounter, followed one week later by a very hot makeout session. She then told me (in very explicit terms) that she wanted to have sex with me, and that I could have her whenever I wanted.
She then said, "you know I'm married, right?"
I told her I couldn't do it, but a week later I changed my mind and chose to start the affair. The sex was absolutely amazing. Our first night, morning and early afternoon together we did it 6 or 7 times. Over the next few weeks we continued to have crazy, incredible, uninhibited, plentiful sex.
During that first makeout session she told me that she had never really enjoyed sex, but that I turned her on in a way she had never experienced. Later she would tell me that she and her (second, current) husband were more like roommates, and neither was interested in sex with the other. They were a good "team," but lived a monastic life. With her first husband, she said, she usually just played dead when he wanted to have sex. With me, she was more lively and uninhibited than I could imagine.
She also told me that she had never in her life had an orgasm (whether through sex, masturbation, or any other means). One night I spent 30 minutes performing cunnilingus and she seemed to be getting very close to orgasm but pulled away to make me stop, saying she was too embarrassed. She turned away and covered her face, so I comforted and reassured her. Two weeks later we tried cunnilingus again. When she came close to orgasm and tried to pull away I gently, but assertively continued, eventually bringing her to her first orgasm. She commented about how she was going to record the date and celebrate it every year.
When I ended things a few days ago, she said that was 'it' for her, that she would never have with anyone else anything like what we had. She'd return to her "monastic" life. Eventually she said she was in love with me, and I told her that I loved her, but couldn't continue because she was married. She wanted things to continue, even without sex, but after a few days I told her I had to cut off all communication. (Mostly because it was too hard for me to see her and not be with her, but also because I thought it best for her to figure things out with her marriage.)
I give all this detail because, now that I've ended it, a very close friend of mine and my priest are both telling me that, in all likelihood, this experience is part of a pattern of behavior on her part. My priest says that 43-year-old, married women don't just wake up one day and decide to go after 28 year old guys and offer them sex. And they certainly don't "fall in love" in 3 weeks. My (woman) friend thinks this woman is a psycho hosebeast who is probably going to go all Glenn Close/Fatal Attraction on me.
So am I being naive? Was I manipulated this whole time, even though every fiber of my being believes (wants to believe?) that everything was genuine, and that I really am the only one for her?
One last detail that tips the scales towards my being naive: She had Norplant birth control implanted in her arm, which A) lasts 5 years and 2) was due to be replaced in a few months. If she's had a "monastic" life for so long, why did she get 5 years worth of birth control implanted in her arm four-and-a-half years ago?
Please email followups to contritescumbag@gmail.com.
Though I realize I'm the scum of the earth for the whole adultery thing, I'm also attractive, charming and intelligent. Aside from the physical stuff I'm about to describe, she and I had really great conversations and connections on all sorts of other levels.
She started by flirting with me. A couple of months later we had a brief kissing encounter, followed one week later by a very hot makeout session. She then told me (in very explicit terms) that she wanted to have sex with me, and that I could have her whenever I wanted.
She then said, "you know I'm married, right?"
I told her I couldn't do it, but a week later I changed my mind and chose to start the affair. The sex was absolutely amazing. Our first night, morning and early afternoon together we did it 6 or 7 times. Over the next few weeks we continued to have crazy, incredible, uninhibited, plentiful sex.
During that first makeout session she told me that she had never really enjoyed sex, but that I turned her on in a way she had never experienced. Later she would tell me that she and her (second, current) husband were more like roommates, and neither was interested in sex with the other. They were a good "team," but lived a monastic life. With her first husband, she said, she usually just played dead when he wanted to have sex. With me, she was more lively and uninhibited than I could imagine.
She also told me that she had never in her life had an orgasm (whether through sex, masturbation, or any other means). One night I spent 30 minutes performing cunnilingus and she seemed to be getting very close to orgasm but pulled away to make me stop, saying she was too embarrassed. She turned away and covered her face, so I comforted and reassured her. Two weeks later we tried cunnilingus again. When she came close to orgasm and tried to pull away I gently, but assertively continued, eventually bringing her to her first orgasm. She commented about how she was going to record the date and celebrate it every year.
When I ended things a few days ago, she said that was 'it' for her, that she would never have with anyone else anything like what we had. She'd return to her "monastic" life. Eventually she said she was in love with me, and I told her that I loved her, but couldn't continue because she was married. She wanted things to continue, even without sex, but after a few days I told her I had to cut off all communication. (Mostly because it was too hard for me to see her and not be with her, but also because I thought it best for her to figure things out with her marriage.)
I give all this detail because, now that I've ended it, a very close friend of mine and my priest are both telling me that, in all likelihood, this experience is part of a pattern of behavior on her part. My priest says that 43-year-old, married women don't just wake up one day and decide to go after 28 year old guys and offer them sex. And they certainly don't "fall in love" in 3 weeks. My (woman) friend thinks this woman is a psycho hosebeast who is probably going to go all Glenn Close/Fatal Attraction on me.
So am I being naive? Was I manipulated this whole time, even though every fiber of my being believes (wants to believe?) that everything was genuine, and that I really am the only one for her?
One last detail that tips the scales towards my being naive: She had Norplant birth control implanted in her arm, which A) lasts 5 years and 2) was due to be replaced in a few months. If she's had a "monastic" life for so long, why did she get 5 years worth of birth control implanted in her arm four-and-a-half years ago?
Please email followups to contritescumbag@gmail.com.
"She then said, 'you know I'm married, right?'"
At this point, I realize she's manipulating you.
"During that first makeout session she told me that she had never really enjoyed sex, but that I turned her on in a way she had never experienced. Later she would tell me that she and her (second, current) husband were more like roommates, and neither was interested in sex with the other. They were a good 'team,' but lived a monastic life. With her first husband, she said, she usually just played dead when he wanted to have sex. With me, she was more lively and uninhibited than I could imagine."
At this point, my bs meter goes into the red zone, and I'm ready to try to break it to you that you've been scammed.
Imagine my relief when you explain that your priest and your friend have already broken this to you.
"One last detail that tips the scales towards my being naive: She had Norplant birth control implanted in her arm, which A) lasts 5 years and 2) was due to be replaced in a few months. If she's had a 'monastic' life for so long, why did she get 5 years worth of birth control implanted in her arm four-and-a-half years ago? "
Yeah, it sounds like you were one of a series of guys. Be glad you got out of this; you dodged a bullet (or a cougar).
posted by orthogonality at 11:27 AM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
At this point, I realize she's manipulating you.
"During that first makeout session she told me that she had never really enjoyed sex, but that I turned her on in a way she had never experienced. Later she would tell me that she and her (second, current) husband were more like roommates, and neither was interested in sex with the other. They were a good 'team,' but lived a monastic life. With her first husband, she said, she usually just played dead when he wanted to have sex. With me, she was more lively and uninhibited than I could imagine."
At this point, my bs meter goes into the red zone, and I'm ready to try to break it to you that you've been scammed.
Imagine my relief when you explain that your priest and your friend have already broken this to you.
"One last detail that tips the scales towards my being naive: She had Norplant birth control implanted in her arm, which A) lasts 5 years and 2) was due to be replaced in a few months. If she's had a 'monastic' life for so long, why did she get 5 years worth of birth control implanted in her arm four-and-a-half years ago? "
Yeah, it sounds like you were one of a series of guys. Be glad you got out of this; you dodged a bullet (or a cougar).
posted by orthogonality at 11:27 AM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
OMG get tested. This like is hitting the top of the eww scale here, in that regard. You were probably like 6 of 33 for that week.
posted by xmutex at 11:30 AM on February 17, 2006
posted by xmutex at 11:30 AM on February 17, 2006
I suspect your friend and your priest are correct, it would extremely unusual for this to be a one time occurance.
On the other hand I doubt she'll go psycho hosebeast on you. She'll probably just move onto the next young thing.
No harm done on your part, but yeah, dating married women is kinda tasteless.
posted by tkolar at 11:31 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
On the other hand I doubt she'll go psycho hosebeast on you. She'll probably just move onto the next young thing.
No harm done on your part, but yeah, dating married women is kinda tasteless.
posted by tkolar at 11:31 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
It doesn't really matter. You did the right thing and saved yourself some sanity. It wasn't headed anywhere pleasant.
And you also have to take this into account: adulterous sex is deceptively arousing simply because it's illicit, secret, and limited. Take all those factors away, the excitement level drops, and you may have been left with a pretty pedestrian involvement once the initial thrill wore off.
posted by Miko at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006
And you also have to take this into account: adulterous sex is deceptively arousing simply because it's illicit, secret, and limited. Take all those factors away, the excitement level drops, and you may have been left with a pretty pedestrian involvement once the initial thrill wore off.
posted by Miko at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006
Was I manipulated this whole time
You'll get a lot of different responses to this. Personally, I don't think there's any way we can know for sure, since we don't know her and only know what she's like from your description. She could have all manner of reasons for what she did (though I'm not a fan of cheating, regardless of how great you think your reasons are).
Many, many people (women and men) exaggerate for the benefit of their lover: "I've never felt this way with anyone else," etc. It's a little manipulative, but in general I don't think it's Capital-M Manipulative in the Fatal Attraction sense.
As for the birth control, many women use and remain on birth control even when they're not having sex because they like or need the side effects (like not having periods, for example, or regulation of previously unmanageable periods).
I wouldn't worry too much about the Glenn Close-y stuff unless the woman tries to remain in contact with you after you've made it clear that you want all contact to stop. (You have made that really clear, right? Not like, "I still have feelings for you but please don't call me anymore," but "Please don't call me anymore, full stop.")
posted by Gator at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006
You'll get a lot of different responses to this. Personally, I don't think there's any way we can know for sure, since we don't know her and only know what she's like from your description. She could have all manner of reasons for what she did (though I'm not a fan of cheating, regardless of how great you think your reasons are).
Many, many people (women and men) exaggerate for the benefit of their lover: "I've never felt this way with anyone else," etc. It's a little manipulative, but in general I don't think it's Capital-M Manipulative in the Fatal Attraction sense.
As for the birth control, many women use and remain on birth control even when they're not having sex because they like or need the side effects (like not having periods, for example, or regulation of previously unmanageable periods).
I wouldn't worry too much about the Glenn Close-y stuff unless the woman tries to remain in contact with you after you've made it clear that you want all contact to stop. (You have made that really clear, right? Not like, "I still have feelings for you but please don't call me anymore," but "Please don't call me anymore, full stop.")
posted by Gator at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006
Hmm, even with you mentioning that she had implanted birth control, it never even occured to me that you might have gone unprotected.
You've got more immediate concerns than your immortal soul, my friend.
posted by tkolar at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
You've got more immediate concerns than your immortal soul, my friend.
posted by tkolar at 11:33 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
There are people that lie or exaggerate to get what they want because they are devious, pyscho hose-beasts, and those that lie or exaggerate because they are deluded, self-centered crazy-people. The latter doesn't sound as evil, but neither is to be trifled with by people who want to lead responsible sane lives. I'd say the real thing to face is the fact that you DON'T WANT TO BE THINKING ABOUT HER REGARDLESS OF THE EXTEND OF HER TRUTHINESS. Both you and she exhibited fucked-up behavior and thinking for the last 3 months. I would guess she has exhibited fucked-up behavior and thinking for longer than that, and the evidence of fucked-up behavior and thinking should be the focus of your contrition, not any musings on motivations or manipulations.
posted by dness2 at 11:40 AM on February 17, 2006
posted by dness2 at 11:40 AM on February 17, 2006
"Dear Penthouse, I can't believe this really happened to me..."
Ok, to me this all sounds completely made up. You said, "The sex was absolutely amazing. Our first night, morning and early afternoon together we did it 6 or 7 times. Over the next few weeks we continued to have crazy, incredible, uninhibited, plentiful sex." But you also said she hadn't ever had an orgasm in her entire life until sometime mid-affair with you. That doesn't sound like it would have made for "absolutely amazing" sex.
Someone's being scammed here. Either you, or us.
posted by MsMolly at 11:47 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
Ok, to me this all sounds completely made up. You said, "The sex was absolutely amazing. Our first night, morning and early afternoon together we did it 6 or 7 times. Over the next few weeks we continued to have crazy, incredible, uninhibited, plentiful sex." But you also said she hadn't ever had an orgasm in her entire life until sometime mid-affair with you. That doesn't sound like it would have made for "absolutely amazing" sex.
Someone's being scammed here. Either you, or us.
posted by MsMolly at 11:47 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Dear Penthouse, I can't believe this really happened to me..."
I have to admit thinking the same thing on first reading. Still, Matt approved it, so...
posted by Gator at 11:48 AM on February 17, 2006
I have to admit thinking the same thing on first reading. Still, Matt approved it, so...
posted by Gator at 11:48 AM on February 17, 2006
Sounds very much like a cougar! I'd definitely recommend getting lots of tests. Can't hurt to change your phone number too, just in case. Best of luck!
posted by shoepal at 11:52 AM on February 17, 2006
posted by shoepal at 11:52 AM on February 17, 2006
I don't really see where or how you were manipulated here. You knew going into it that she was married, and you then you proceeded to choose to have wild and awesome sex with her that you both enjoyed. Then you made the decision on your own to leave her. Sounds like you got the better, or at least equal, end of the bargain here.
Maybe she wasn't completely forthcoming with her sexual history. Maybe she wasn't really in love with you. Still, you didn't mention how long you had known her before you got involved, but it doesn't seem like you had known her for a very long time before you got together with her. You knowingly got involved with a married woman, and now you feel played because maybe she wasn't really in love with you, and even though you were the one who left her?
I realize that you are trying to deal with your guilt and religious conflicts regarding what you did. It seems to me though like you are complicating the matter and attempting to find a way to put yourself into a victim position, so that you won't have to accept the full weight of the guilt you have created for yourself. I don't see how looking for further flaws in her character -or trying to assemble the things she told you into a lie- is going to help you deal with the "sin" you feel you commited. Honestly, I don't think you got played anymore than you were already willing to play the game yourself. If anything, you played her. She's the one claiming to be in love, and you are the one leaving.
posted by RoseovSharon at 11:56 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
Maybe she wasn't completely forthcoming with her sexual history. Maybe she wasn't really in love with you. Still, you didn't mention how long you had known her before you got involved, but it doesn't seem like you had known her for a very long time before you got together with her. You knowingly got involved with a married woman, and now you feel played because maybe she wasn't really in love with you, and even though you were the one who left her?
I realize that you are trying to deal with your guilt and religious conflicts regarding what you did. It seems to me though like you are complicating the matter and attempting to find a way to put yourself into a victim position, so that you won't have to accept the full weight of the guilt you have created for yourself. I don't see how looking for further flaws in her character -or trying to assemble the things she told you into a lie- is going to help you deal with the "sin" you feel you commited. Honestly, I don't think you got played anymore than you were already willing to play the game yourself. If anything, you played her. She's the one claiming to be in love, and you are the one leaving.
posted by RoseovSharon at 11:56 AM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
I agree with RoseovSharon. Demonizing this woman doesn't solve anything and creates unnecessary panic. (And is coming across as hugely misogynistic -- oh no, the evil woman might be having sex with muliple partners! She's obviously deranged! Given the poster's oral skills, I'm guessing he's no virgin.)
posted by occhiblu at 12:18 PM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by occhiblu at 12:18 PM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
Another vote with RoseovSharon and occhiblu. Trying to determine whether or not this women is a liar/serial adultress/potential bunny boiler (not to mention reveling in the Penthouse Forum details of it all) reads like some sort of attempt to render yourself slightly less culpable here. Aside from the purely pragmatic question of needing to get tested for STDs, whether or not this is part of a pattern of behavior on her part is irrelevant. You slept with a married woman, you called it off, and now you're going to have some difficult feelings to experience for awhile. Do yourself a favor and concentrate on understanding your own motivatations and actions (not to mention forgiving yourself) and leave her motivations, actions, etc. to her.
posted by scody at 12:26 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by scody at 12:26 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
MsMolly, I'd disagree -- I've had plenty of amazing, mind-blowing sex without having an orgasm. Even if anon is scamming us, I don't think it's on this point.
posted by Zosia Blue at 12:27 PM on February 17, 2006
posted by Zosia Blue at 12:27 PM on February 17, 2006
Was I manipulated this whole time...?If you're lucky, you'll never learn the answer to this question. Walk away.
posted by cribcage at 12:36 PM on February 17, 2006
1) What's the motivation for figuring out if you were "really the one for her" or if you were just another lay, if you know you want/need to break it off anyway? Ego-stroking? If you really did rock her world, does that make you feel better? Worse? More or less guilty?
2) I know at least a couple women who tolerate Norplant better than other forms of hormonal birth control, so why read into this? Only she and her OB/GYN know for sure....
posted by availablelight at 12:39 PM on February 17, 2006
2) I know at least a couple women who tolerate Norplant better than other forms of hormonal birth control, so why read into this? Only she and her OB/GYN know for sure....
posted by availablelight at 12:39 PM on February 17, 2006
Eh, I don't think the OP sounds misogynistic; he doesn't sound freaked that she lied about her sexual history, but that she lied with the (seemingly) explicit purpose of manipulating his behavior. And sexual manipulation is universally creepy in either sex, and in both hetero and homo relationships.
posted by junkbox at 12:39 PM on February 17, 2006
posted by junkbox at 12:39 PM on February 17, 2006
The "she's on birth control, and is therefore going to turn into Glenn Close from Fatal Attraction"... -- well, I was going to say "vibe," but that's actually explictly in the post, isn't it? -- assumption, the demonizing of this woman, is what I was labelling misogynistic.
The poster seems hurt and jealous, and that's understandable, but you and the priest and your friend therefore building up some fantasy in which this (probably confused) woman preys on young men for nefarious purposes is going way outside the bounds of the information you have, and is built on a lot of stereotypes and assumptions about female behavior ("birth control is only for promiscuous women!," "all women who blur the edges of 'in love' and 'in lust' will go psyscho and come after you with butcher knives!" "no woman can fall in love in three weeks") that do, in my reading, add up to a misogynistic view of the situation.
posted by occhiblu at 12:52 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
The poster seems hurt and jealous, and that's understandable, but you and the priest and your friend therefore building up some fantasy in which this (probably confused) woman preys on young men for nefarious purposes is going way outside the bounds of the information you have, and is built on a lot of stereotypes and assumptions about female behavior ("birth control is only for promiscuous women!," "all women who blur the edges of 'in love' and 'in lust' will go psyscho and come after you with butcher knives!" "no woman can fall in love in three weeks") that do, in my reading, add up to a misogynistic view of the situation.
posted by occhiblu at 12:52 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
I agree with RoseovSharon, occhiblu and scody.
Regarding the "Fatal attraction" scenario:
1) Has she contacted you after you broke up?
2) Are you married?
3) Do you own a pet rabbit?
If "no", you're in the clear. Move on with the rest of your life.
posted by iviken at 12:55 PM on February 17, 2006
Regarding the "Fatal attraction" scenario:
1) Has she contacted you after you broke up?
2) Are you married?
3) Do you own a pet rabbit?
If "no", you're in the clear. Move on with the rest of your life.
posted by iviken at 12:55 PM on February 17, 2006
The "never had an orgasm" bit is really hard to swallow; if she came from cunnilingus she certainly could have masturbated herself to orgasm using her fingers or toys. I find it hard to believe that someone could ignore their body until that late in life, especially someone interested in and able to have "crazy, incredible, uninhibited, plentiful sex."
However, I did once date a girl who claimed to never have masturbated (at age 19) and had a hard to find and terribly difficult to stimulate clitoris. That amount of physical insensitivity has so far been unique in my experience and that girl's low libido sounds nothing like your potential cougar, but you have one vote for possible on the "never had an orgasm issue."
I can believe that she might come by oral sex and not vaginal since you're stimulating the g-spot much, much more than the clitoris during vaginal intercourse.
Still, I can't decide if your question reads as fishy or is simply terribly indicative of your personality. Get tested for STDs and stop worrying about her if you won't be interacting with her anymore. Also, stop beating yourself up because of after-the-fact moral twinges. Certainly don't try to cast blame on her. It's too late, and what's the point? As a Catholic you are in plentiful company as far as confused and painful sexual interactions go.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 1:02 PM on February 17, 2006
However, I did once date a girl who claimed to never have masturbated (at age 19) and had a hard to find and terribly difficult to stimulate clitoris. That amount of physical insensitivity has so far been unique in my experience and that girl's low libido sounds nothing like your potential cougar, but you have one vote for possible on the "never had an orgasm issue."
I can believe that she might come by oral sex and not vaginal since you're stimulating the g-spot much, much more than the clitoris during vaginal intercourse.
Still, I can't decide if your question reads as fishy or is simply terribly indicative of your personality. Get tested for STDs and stop worrying about her if you won't be interacting with her anymore. Also, stop beating yourself up because of after-the-fact moral twinges. Certainly don't try to cast blame on her. It's too late, and what's the point? As a Catholic you are in plentiful company as far as confused and painful sexual interactions go.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 1:02 PM on February 17, 2006
I think everyone has done a great job of letting you know that your next stop should be a doctor to get tested. Heed this warning.
As you've cut off all contact, and will most likely never speak much to her again, her reasons for what she did are not really a concern anymore. Most likely, she did this because she's unhappy and wants to feel young again. You can bet that half of the personal stuff regarding sex that she told you is over-estimated. It could certainly be a first time thing for her, but it won't be a last. Cheating on an SO is a habit. She'll do it again, because she enjoyed it so much. There's also a possibility that what she said about being more roomates and a 'team' with her husband is true, and they may have some form of verbal or non-verbal agreement that sex with other partners is allowed. Either way, this woman seems to have some serious emotional and possibly mental problems that she needs to work out.
The good news for you is, that she was looking for it. If it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. She would have cheated on her SO anyway. This is what I don't really understand about cheating. The blame is solely on the cheater. You didn't cheat on anyone. You just participated in a secretive sexually gratifying relationship. It had nothing to do with you. So you shouldn't be feeling any guilt. You did nothing wrong. Sure, it's a sin. Confess, drop the subject, and get over it.
posted by Phynix at 1:09 PM on February 17, 2006
As you've cut off all contact, and will most likely never speak much to her again, her reasons for what she did are not really a concern anymore. Most likely, she did this because she's unhappy and wants to feel young again. You can bet that half of the personal stuff regarding sex that she told you is over-estimated. It could certainly be a first time thing for her, but it won't be a last. Cheating on an SO is a habit. She'll do it again, because she enjoyed it so much. There's also a possibility that what she said about being more roomates and a 'team' with her husband is true, and they may have some form of verbal or non-verbal agreement that sex with other partners is allowed. Either way, this woman seems to have some serious emotional and possibly mental problems that she needs to work out.
The good news for you is, that she was looking for it. If it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. She would have cheated on her SO anyway. This is what I don't really understand about cheating. The blame is solely on the cheater. You didn't cheat on anyone. You just participated in a secretive sexually gratifying relationship. It had nothing to do with you. So you shouldn't be feeling any guilt. You did nothing wrong. Sure, it's a sin. Confess, drop the subject, and get over it.
posted by Phynix at 1:09 PM on February 17, 2006
occhiblu -- it's OP female friend who "thinks this woman is a psycho hosebeast who is probably going to go all Glenn Close/Fatal Attraction on me." OP wants very hard to believe that they are IN LUV 4EVA. He says "every fiber of my being believes (wants to believe?) that everything was genuine." It's the sisterhood that's judging Demi harshly.
I'm a 27yo woman; let's pretend I had a brief affair with a 43 yo married man who claimed to be impotant. I was "the one;" he could relax and perform with me in a way he never could with his wife. The first time we had sex, he had a packet of new, barely creased condoms in his wallet. I didn't think about it much at the time, but now I'm wondering: why was a normally impotant man carrying a pack of condoms around in his wallet? I've broken it off now, but I think I might have been manipulated. He told me that he loves me and he'd do anything to stay with me; I want to believe he's telling the truth, but my friends think he's probably done this before, and they're worried he might start stalking me or something.
Is that sexist? To entertain the idea that a guy who cheated, and maybe lied and manipulated, might also be a little scary? Self-centered and extreme, yes. Unfair -- sure. Every man (or woman) who cheats is not a sexual predator. But the judgment is based on the behavior, not the gender. People who cheat, lie and manipulate are operating in an ethics-free zone, and that's scary.
posted by junkbox at 1:47 PM on February 17, 2006
I'm a 27yo woman; let's pretend I had a brief affair with a 43 yo married man who claimed to be impotant. I was "the one;" he could relax and perform with me in a way he never could with his wife. The first time we had sex, he had a packet of new, barely creased condoms in his wallet. I didn't think about it much at the time, but now I'm wondering: why was a normally impotant man carrying a pack of condoms around in his wallet? I've broken it off now, but I think I might have been manipulated. He told me that he loves me and he'd do anything to stay with me; I want to believe he's telling the truth, but my friends think he's probably done this before, and they're worried he might start stalking me or something.
Is that sexist? To entertain the idea that a guy who cheated, and maybe lied and manipulated, might also be a little scary? Self-centered and extreme, yes. Unfair -- sure. Every man (or woman) who cheats is not a sexual predator. But the judgment is based on the behavior, not the gender. People who cheat, lie and manipulate are operating in an ethics-free zone, and that's scary.
posted by junkbox at 1:47 PM on February 17, 2006
Woman can also hold misogynist views; and you're skipping the fact that this woman *told* the guy she was married and that these extreme (and extremely gendered -- c'mon, Glenn Close?) scenarios are being built on the flimsiest of (and extremely gendered) evidence (she's on BC, she said she loved him but everyone knows "women can't fall in love in three weeks").
Of course people can behave badly, regardless of gender, and can be called on it. But when someone posts an obsessively weird level of detail about his sexual techniques and practices, then starts accusing the woman of manipulating him because maybe he wasn't "the only one," then drags out her birth control choices as proof that she wasn't "faithful," I sense sexual jealousy combined with a heavy dose of double standard.
posted by occhiblu at 1:57 PM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
Of course people can behave badly, regardless of gender, and can be called on it. But when someone posts an obsessively weird level of detail about his sexual techniques and practices, then starts accusing the woman of manipulating him because maybe he wasn't "the only one," then drags out her birth control choices as proof that she wasn't "faithful," I sense sexual jealousy combined with a heavy dose of double standard.
posted by occhiblu at 1:57 PM on February 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
I agree with RoseovSharon, occhiblu and scody.
And so do I. All the discussion in this thread about whether or not she was lying or exaggerating about her sexual history, whether or not she had orgasms, whether or not she was a manipulating vixen, etc., is so extremely speculative as to be useless (especially since the level of expertise on the female orgasm evidenced so far is not terribly high). We just don't know what was going on in her mind or body, and we're not likely to, if even anon -- who was there to witness it -- is unsure. And I'd submit, anon, that whatever was going on with her is now beside the point.
So what is the point? You had this difficult interaction, and now you have to deal with the emotional consequences. It would be very good if you could reflect on them and deal with them in a way that is going to be constructive for your future, help you develop better relationship skills, and be more judicious in your approach to sexually charged situations.
The important insight to take from this discussion, in my mind at least, is that some of the strategies being employed to help you 'deal' with this situation are not constructive, will not help you build better relationships in the future, and definitely do employ misogynystic stereotypes.
Anon, please ask yourself why it would make any difference in the world if you were 'manipulated'. Your priest might suggest that you had simply been led innocently down the garden path by the evils of woman, but the truth isn't that simple. No one else controls your behavior.
I'm not interested in making you feel punished for this sad life experience, but rather in learning from it so you can go forward confidently and avoid painful entaglements in future. Why would your priest want to help you avoid accountability for your choices? You can only come to terms with this positively if you
-observe your own actions and choices during the situation
-accept that they happened
-take responsibility for the things you had control over
-let go of responsibility for things you didn't
-forgive yourself for mistakes you made
-recognize any good things that may have come of this,
-and devise some new ways of thinking and acting that will prevent any repeated occurrences
This work has to be done whether everything she said was true or not (and I don't really see any reason to believe it wasn't, despite the apparent certainty of others). Yes, a lot of this work can be done by employing your spirituality in the healing process; but it sounds like the religious guidance you're receiving right now is aimed at giving you permission not to examine your own motives and actions by blaming it all on the femme fatale. Which is not going to be very helpful or productive for you down the line; what skills will you have built to avoid falling into the next, painful situation? Will you be better at managing relationships? Will you know how to regulate your infatuations? Not if the focus of your healing process centers on what she did/said/felt, you won't. Make sure it centers on you. Bring it all back to you. And if that priest doesn't get it, find one who does.
posted by Miko at 2:00 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
And so do I. All the discussion in this thread about whether or not she was lying or exaggerating about her sexual history, whether or not she had orgasms, whether or not she was a manipulating vixen, etc., is so extremely speculative as to be useless (especially since the level of expertise on the female orgasm evidenced so far is not terribly high). We just don't know what was going on in her mind or body, and we're not likely to, if even anon -- who was there to witness it -- is unsure. And I'd submit, anon, that whatever was going on with her is now beside the point.
So what is the point? You had this difficult interaction, and now you have to deal with the emotional consequences. It would be very good if you could reflect on them and deal with them in a way that is going to be constructive for your future, help you develop better relationship skills, and be more judicious in your approach to sexually charged situations.
The important insight to take from this discussion, in my mind at least, is that some of the strategies being employed to help you 'deal' with this situation are not constructive, will not help you build better relationships in the future, and definitely do employ misogynystic stereotypes.
Anon, please ask yourself why it would make any difference in the world if you were 'manipulated'. Your priest might suggest that you had simply been led innocently down the garden path by the evils of woman, but the truth isn't that simple. No one else controls your behavior.
I'm not interested in making you feel punished for this sad life experience, but rather in learning from it so you can go forward confidently and avoid painful entaglements in future. Why would your priest want to help you avoid accountability for your choices? You can only come to terms with this positively if you
-observe your own actions and choices during the situation
-accept that they happened
-take responsibility for the things you had control over
-let go of responsibility for things you didn't
-forgive yourself for mistakes you made
-recognize any good things that may have come of this,
-and devise some new ways of thinking and acting that will prevent any repeated occurrences
This work has to be done whether everything she said was true or not (and I don't really see any reason to believe it wasn't, despite the apparent certainty of others). Yes, a lot of this work can be done by employing your spirituality in the healing process; but it sounds like the religious guidance you're receiving right now is aimed at giving you permission not to examine your own motives and actions by blaming it all on the femme fatale. Which is not going to be very helpful or productive for you down the line; what skills will you have built to avoid falling into the next, painful situation? Will you be better at managing relationships? Will you know how to regulate your infatuations? Not if the focus of your healing process centers on what she did/said/felt, you won't. Make sure it centers on you. Bring it all back to you. And if that priest doesn't get it, find one who does.
posted by Miko at 2:00 PM on February 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
Sorry, Miko, but "this sad life experience"? Is everyone in this thread employed as a mortician? Sounds to me like you both had an absolute blast. Your job now is to realize that (a) extramarital affairs are eventually painful to everyone involved, and are therefore to be avoided, and (b) that your brief relationship with this woman--enjoyable as it was for both of you--can't work. Relish the experience and avoid the Catholic quicksand of guilty and shame.
posted by ori at 3:47 PM on February 17, 2006
posted by ori at 3:47 PM on February 17, 2006
Two follow-ups from anon, which I'll post one at a time. Anon (and future anons) keep the word count down to a reasonable level and leave out the HTML? I'm copying and pasting from an email here:
Thanks everyone for your responses, it's really helpful to hear it
from more people so I can drive it into my head that I should not get
involved with her again. I've told her that I don't want to have any
further contact with her and so far she has respected that (going on 3
days now). The one caveat is that we're both involved in some church
activities that neither of us wants to leave, so we'll probably see
each other once or twice a week, but in a group setting.
To the couple of doubters out there, please believe that all of this
is absolutely true, even though I truly wish it weren't.
RoseovSharon: You're absolutely right that I played just as much a
part in this as she did, but at no point did I try to deceive her. I
was completely upfront about my sexual/emotional history and it's only
through my friend's and priest's questions that I started to think she
may have been deceiving me.
I feel like I need to know whether she was deceiving me because I need
to learn how vulnerable I am to this sort of thing. The entire time
(and for the most part, still) I believed everything she told me and
could not find any reason to doubt her or her reactions. If my BS
detectors are flawed to this extent, I need to know so I can try to
correct it.
Finally, as far as her being in love with and and my being the one to
leave her is concerned, I've left her *because I love her* (in the agape sense).
I truly want for her ultimate happiness and I came to realize
that, since she was married, my continuing the affair would not
contribute to that happiness. I didn't just ditch her or play her, I
fell for her then *chose* to love her.
Thank you all so much.
posted by jessamyn at 3:59 PM on February 17, 2006
Thanks everyone for your responses, it's really helpful to hear it
from more people so I can drive it into my head that I should not get
involved with her again. I've told her that I don't want to have any
further contact with her and so far she has respected that (going on 3
days now). The one caveat is that we're both involved in some church
activities that neither of us wants to leave, so we'll probably see
each other once or twice a week, but in a group setting.
To the couple of doubters out there, please believe that all of this
is absolutely true, even though I truly wish it weren't.
RoseovSharon: You're absolutely right that I played just as much a
part in this as she did, but at no point did I try to deceive her. I
was completely upfront about my sexual/emotional history and it's only
through my friend's and priest's questions that I started to think she
may have been deceiving me.
I feel like I need to know whether she was deceiving me because I need
to learn how vulnerable I am to this sort of thing. The entire time
(and for the most part, still) I believed everything she told me and
could not find any reason to doubt her or her reactions. If my BS
detectors are flawed to this extent, I need to know so I can try to
correct it.
Finally, as far as her being in love with and and my being the one to
leave her is concerned, I've left her *because I love her* (in the agape sense).
I truly want for her ultimate happiness and I came to realize
that, since she was married, my continuing the affair would not
contribute to that happiness. I didn't just ditch her or play her, I
fell for her then *chose* to love her.
Thank you all so much.
posted by jessamyn at 3:59 PM on February 17, 2006
second follow-up from anon:
Miko wrote (and others have stated or implied):
"Why would your priest want to help you avoid accountability for
your choices?"
Please understand that none of what I wrote is meant to shift
accountability (though, from re-reading I can see how so many got that
impression). Remember, I wrote quite clearly that I chose to start the
relationship. I've taken responsibility for my choices and my
behavior.
Nor was my priest trying to let me avoid accountability. His analysis
of her behavior was intended to show me that the relationship couldn't
have a future, because at the time I spoke with him, I was still
thinking and feeling that somehow things could work out between her
and me. By pointing out that this may be a pattern of behavior for
her, and by reasserting the other potential problems (age differences,
her having kids from her first marriage, etc.) he was trying to show
me that neither she nor I was free to enter a relationship together,
and so I had to abandon the hope that it could somehow work out in the
end.
posted by jessamyn at 4:00 PM on February 17, 2006
Miko wrote (and others have stated or implied):
"Why would your priest want to help you avoid accountability for
your choices?"
Please understand that none of what I wrote is meant to shift
accountability (though, from re-reading I can see how so many got that
impression). Remember, I wrote quite clearly that I chose to start the
relationship. I've taken responsibility for my choices and my
behavior.
Nor was my priest trying to let me avoid accountability. His analysis
of her behavior was intended to show me that the relationship couldn't
have a future, because at the time I spoke with him, I was still
thinking and feeling that somehow things could work out between her
and me. By pointing out that this may be a pattern of behavior for
her, and by reasserting the other potential problems (age differences,
her having kids from her first marriage, etc.) he was trying to show
me that neither she nor I was free to enter a relationship together,
and so I had to abandon the hope that it could somehow work out in the
end.
posted by jessamyn at 4:00 PM on February 17, 2006
It's great to see Anons following up; I wish more Anonymous Askers would do so.
we're both involved in some church activities that neither of us wants to leave, so we'll probably see each other once or twice a week, but in a group setting.
You should really, seriously consider reconsidering this. I know it's "not fair," and you shouldn't have to give up activities that you enjoy because of someone else, but it really might be a lot healthier for you in the long run if you temporarily cut off even "group" contact with her, while you sort yourself out.
I feel like I need to know whether she was deceiving me because I need to learn how vulnerable I am to this sort of thing.
You're a human being. Vulnerability is part of that. It might be hard to see right now, but down the road you're probably going to meet someone else and you don't want your mentality to be all, "I was wronged before, so I'd better not take the chance of being wronged again," and so forth. You should learn from this mistake, of course, but don't think that meticulously analyzing this one woman's behavior is going to keep you from ever being deceived again, if indeed you were deceived this time (which, again, I'm not sure any of us here can really tell you one way or another).
posted by Gator at 4:13 PM on February 17, 2006
we're both involved in some church activities that neither of us wants to leave, so we'll probably see each other once or twice a week, but in a group setting.
You should really, seriously consider reconsidering this. I know it's "not fair," and you shouldn't have to give up activities that you enjoy because of someone else, but it really might be a lot healthier for you in the long run if you temporarily cut off even "group" contact with her, while you sort yourself out.
I feel like I need to know whether she was deceiving me because I need to learn how vulnerable I am to this sort of thing.
You're a human being. Vulnerability is part of that. It might be hard to see right now, but down the road you're probably going to meet someone else and you don't want your mentality to be all, "I was wronged before, so I'd better not take the chance of being wronged again," and so forth. You should learn from this mistake, of course, but don't think that meticulously analyzing this one woman's behavior is going to keep you from ever being deceived again, if indeed you were deceived this time (which, again, I'm not sure any of us here can really tell you one way or another).
posted by Gator at 4:13 PM on February 17, 2006
"this sad life experience"?
If you've ever been anywhere near a situation like this, you'll know it's really not "a blast."
Gator: you're right about that. As you go forward, you just need to develop boundaries so that you can manage the risk of relationships. It's not about parsing others' behavior with a 'bullshit detector'; it's about deciding what you do and don't need, and will and won't accept from a partner. And then following through by listening to your instincts and maintaining those boundaries. Once you know how you want to be treated, it's awfully hard for anyone to make you vulnerable in a way you haven't accepted.
So the thing that'll make you less vulnerable to "this sort of thing" isn't knowing whether or not she was decieving you, but whether or not an extramarital affair with ambiguous emotional content is going to be OK with your boundaries. If not, you bail. It's not about the other person's behavior, it's about acting when you need to in order to keep yourself in good shape. See what I mean?
posted by Miko at 7:12 PM on February 17, 2006
If you've ever been anywhere near a situation like this, you'll know it's really not "a blast."
Gator: you're right about that. As you go forward, you just need to develop boundaries so that you can manage the risk of relationships. It's not about parsing others' behavior with a 'bullshit detector'; it's about deciding what you do and don't need, and will and won't accept from a partner. And then following through by listening to your instincts and maintaining those boundaries. Once you know how you want to be treated, it's awfully hard for anyone to make you vulnerable in a way you haven't accepted.
So the thing that'll make you less vulnerable to "this sort of thing" isn't knowing whether or not she was decieving you, but whether or not an extramarital affair with ambiguous emotional content is going to be OK with your boundaries. If not, you bail. It's not about the other person's behavior, it's about acting when you need to in order to keep yourself in good shape. See what I mean?
posted by Miko at 7:12 PM on February 17, 2006
Were you lied to?
Probably.
Adulters are liars by default; that "First orgasm" shtick should have set off your BS detector.
Were you manipulated?
No, you enjoyed it, went into the situation with your eyes open... and now you feel a little guilty. (Props for ending it, btw.)
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:04 PM on February 17, 2006
Probably.
Adulters are liars by default; that "First orgasm" shtick should have set off your BS detector.
Were you manipulated?
No, you enjoyed it, went into the situation with your eyes open... and now you feel a little guilty. (Props for ending it, btw.)
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:04 PM on February 17, 2006
*Adulterers, even...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:07 PM on February 17, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:07 PM on February 17, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mds35 at 11:26 AM on February 17, 2006